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[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest who is also part of the Broadway Podcast Network. Robert Bannon is the host of a podcast called The Roundtable, which sits down with the best and brightest artists to have an in-depth, fun, and craft-filled chat with Broadway stars, stage, screen, and social media members. Robert also is a Cats fan who I hear has some hot takes, so I'm excited to have him on. So welcome, Robert, and thank you for joining me.

[0:41] Robert Bannon: Thank you so much. I love that. Can you be my writer, editor, copier? That was good. I'm here for that intro. Let's go, Mike.

[0:50] Mike Abrams: We'll cut this out. We'll just put that in the beginning of all your episodes.

[0:53] Robert Bannon: Thank you. Hired. It's nice to be here.

[0:55] Mike Abrams: I love it.

[0:55] Robert Bannon: Thanks so much for having me here.

[0:58] Robert Bannon: I love talking to other Broadway Podcast Network people because it's fun because I always joked, I know that you kind of joined in on the other stuff that's been going on for five or six years now. I was in the beginning, and that was the extreme end of the spectrum of the types of shows they had for the parody. So it's always fun to meet kind of all the different shows that we have, and so we'll get to your show, but this is a Cats podcast, so we got to start with Cats. So I want to hear, when you first saw the show, your introduction to it, your fandom of it, why we're here today.

[1:30] Robert Bannon: Okay, so listen, I'm from New Jersey, Mike, and so I had access to Broadway. I lived in Fort Lee, New Jersey. I was across the George Washington Bridge, and I had parents who liked theater, and they were cool with me going to theater. I was a theater kid. I was going to musical theater class, like all good Jersey theater kids at the mall, because that's where you'd go learn to dance. And Cats was running at the Winter Garden, and my parents had seen Cats on a date before we were grown, right, like before they had children.

[1:59] Robert Bannon: Date night at Cats, where groping is, you have to ask for consent. So, well, my parents decided that they weren't going to take me to see Cats, because they had already seen it, and they weren't going to spend the money, at that time was probably like $40, and now it's like $500, to go see Cats at the Winter Garden. But I was shifty, because it was my parents' 15th wedding anniversary. I was like 14 years old, and I had told my aunt, who's my godmother, that my parents really wanted to see Cats, and we should get the family ticket.

[2:32] Robert Bannon: Surprised them. I love it. So my aunt said, sure. She got a car service. We booked Tavern on the Green. This is back in 1990, and we were going to take them, and we went to see it, and surprised them. My parents did not ask to see Cats. I wanted to see Cats, and I conned my way into the Winter Garden on the back of my parents' wedding anniversary, so that I got to experience Cats in person. And I was in awe and floored of the makeup, the costumes, the set, so much so that years later, when Cats closed at the Winter Garden, I went to the Broadway Cares flea market and bought pieces of the set. They're in my attic at my dad's house, because it was such a moment for me as a kid to hear the music and see it, that I fell in love with the music of Cats. I conned my parents, Mike.

[3:25] Mike Abrams: I love, all right, there's so many questions. I have so many follow-up questions. Let's start with the, what was your parents' reaction? Were they angry at you for forcing them to go see it again?

[3:30] Robert Bannon: You know, my brother is not a theater person at all. He is a sports nista. He plays basketball, he doesn't do theater, really. He fell asleep, because he fell asleep at all the great shows of the 90s. Les Mis, King and I, Miss Saigon. Like, Sean slept through every show we went to. So Sean slept. My mom loves it, because my mom is just happy to be with her kids and see something and be together. My dad had a good reaction. He enjoyed it. You buy him some peanut M&Ms, and you give him a Diet Coke, and he's going to sing along. So it ended up being great. But it was definitely shifty, and it was definitely my way of getting him to see the show. I had no money. I had to go see it.

[4:11] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So your brother, you didn't get, like, scared during the beginning, Green Eyes? Like, he was asleep from the moment it started.

[4:15] Robert Bannon: Ten minutes in. He might have been up for that, but ten minutes in, my brother had sleep. My brother, that is literally a joke in my cabaret show, is that my brother slept through the greatest shows of the 90s, because he, even to this day, he will be like, he did not get this gene. He did not get the theater gene at all.

[4:33] Mike Abrams: I have fallen asleep during shows before. I'm more like your brother. I'm now very into the theater world, but before, I used to go to a couple, after I had played, like, three hockey games in a weekend, and then it's like, we have matinee tickets for Sunday, and my mom was like, you're still going. And so I have fallen asleep through a couple shows from those scenarios where I was like, yeah, I'm still pretty tired. I don't care how great this show is. But how do you sleep through Cats, Mike?

[4:57] Mike Abrams: I had never seen Cats until 2016.

[5:00] Robert Bannon: I read that.

[5:01] Mike Abrams: I did not sleep through Cats. I was fascinated, which is why the show started in 2016. But okay, I got more follow-up questions.

[5:06] Robert Bannon: Go ahead, sure.

[5:09] Robert Bannon: You conjure away, and I love it. 14 is kind of a formative age. Did you catch all the sexual nature of, like, what's happening?

[5:16] Robert Bannon: No. I know you have Cats super fans, and I love the Cats super fans, and I love Andrew Lloyd Webber, and I love the people who have been in Cats. I still don't know if I know what the show is really about, but I loved the music, and I loved the look, and I loved the whole story, but I did not get any of the sexual nature.

[5:32] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[5:32] Robert Bannon: And I don't own a cat. I don't think I'm a cat person, Mike. But I like their behavior as an actor. I was fascinated by the way they acted, but I definitely did not catch the sexual nature, nor did I think she died at the end. I think it went right over my head, to be honest.

[5:47] Mike Abrams: All of it, yeah. You're just seeing the dancing and, you know, the unitards at that point.

[5:50] Robert Bannon: Yes, exactly.

[5:52] Mike Abrams: Okay. I love it. Did you walk out being like, I need to be in this show?

[5:57] Robert Bannon: Well, you know, I can't dance, but I remember going to the Tavern on the Green. I remember being in the gift shop. I remember meowing. I remember being obsessed with the idea of the cat. I still can, you know, get into a meerk, but I think cats and meowing is funny, so doing it on stage and getting paid for it is hysterical. And funniest interview I've ever done, Mike. I love this. And I remember wanting to sing it, and I remember then going home and being obsessed with memory and listening to the Streisand version and the Manilow version and all of them. I just saw Il Volo here in Detroit. I'm in Detroit now, and I was in Detroit the other day. I saw the opera group Il Volo, and they do a whole lead up to singing memory and singing cat, because that song was so haunting to me. And as someone who loves a ballad and someone who loves a big, giant, sweeping musical number, that was the big takeaway is that I wanted to sing the song.

[6:53] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Have you seen it since, or is it a one-time cat's experience for you?

[6:57] Robert Bannon: I saw the Jellicle Ball. I sure did see it. And see, that is a moment in time, people. That is something, as a gay-as-they-come person, I had the best time seeing that show. I love the people that I know in that show and what that show's doing. I hope it comes to Broadway. I know there's rumors of it coming to Broadway. I hope it does. And the movie, regardless of how the theater people feel about the movie, I had an amazing experience at the movie as well.

[7:22] Mike Abrams: Okay. We'll come back to the ballroom cats, but tell me about the movie experience.

[7:27] Robert Bannon: So I went opening night in Times Square. I was in acting class, and I went with my friend Kyle Ball, who was an actor who does not do musicals, but needed to see the movie. And the movie, like the parody of the movie, like the way people felt about the movie and the way that they went into the movie, it became like a sing-along, rocky horror, like yell back at the screen, meowing, singing, clapping, dancing. I laughed and clapped and cheered and meowed for the whole two hours. It was such a fun Friday night in New York City. It was epic. I've not seen it since, but it was a moment that stands in time.

[8:06] Mike Abrams: So it's funny you say that, because it's like, you went in with the right mindset for it. And I feel like a lot of people's cat's opinions depend on how you go in, either to the stage show or to the movie. Because if you go into the stage show with a, just go in and take it for what it is and enjoy the dancing and singing, you're going to have a great time. If you were like me and you walked in thinking like, I'm going to see this beautiful story, I was pulling my hair out trying to figure out what was going on. But it's what led to me having all these theories and thoughts. But the movie was exactly that. I went to Alan and I, Alan Seals, who's the co-founder of the Broadway Podcast Network, has his own show.

We both know, obviously, being part of the network, we went together because this was like, what sparked this whole podcast was the trailer for that movie. And so we went to one of the, not like, not openings, like it was a pre-show, it was like a press viewing a week before it opened. So it was kind of like the, not the red carpet one, but definitely one where it was all industry people or friends or family. And about halfway through everyone's laughing. And I'm like, this isn't supposed to be funny. And that was kind of our cue of like, oh, this, this is going to be a thing. Like this could be, because then I was, I was rooting for it to have the Rocky Horror style show, because then it's like, you go in, you have a good time and you walk out with a good time.

But that's definitely not, I don't think their intention. And so we kind of were in that weird middle side of where there was like, all right, this is supposed to be a very easy crowd of people who should be there, pro cats rooting for it. And it still kind of had that reaction.

[9:45] Robert Bannon: Yes. And, but I don't, but I think we could separate things. I think we could separate the show and the, you know, at the time, the longest running show on Broadway and the incredible people that were in it and how hard it is to dance and sing and wear a leotard and not eat carbs for years and do eight shows a week. And then I think you can see that the movie with the star power and the weird CGI and the whole thing that they tried to do with the look of the cats didn't necessarily work in the way they wanted, but there's joy in that movie as well in its own way. I still think there's a good movie there if you reedit it, because there's such incredible dancers and singers. Like the cast is, is incredible.

It's stacked. You take the, including the celebrities, but you take like the big name people out. There's like the, the French twins, there was the, um, the ballet dancers. Like there's so many really incredible dancers that are in the show and you can't see anything they do because of the way it jumps around and cutting. And I had, um, uh, Sophie Carmen Jones on my show from Moulin Rouge. She's now in Chicago and she was in the McAvity number there. And I just remember, like I watched to prep to see and it jumps around so much. I'm like, I think that was her. I think this was her, like, whereas she's an unbelievable dancer and you just don't get to experience enough. So I think if they took all the footage that they shot and just zoomed out a little bit and didn't move the camera angles around so much, you probably have a really cool movie.

[11:04] Robert Bannon: You know, and, and the McAvity song is like my fave because this is Bob and it's amazing. And I, I think that that's true. I w I don't know if the whole roaches in the, in the refrigerator scene works. Can we cut it? There's some choices. There's definitely some choices there and we're not going to make it perfect, but I just think we didn't do all these incredible dancers justice on what they were doing and the choreography is great. It's Andy Blankenbuehler. It's, it's there. It's just not there for the movie because you don't get to see it.

[11:40] Robert Bannon: She is the wrong cat that dies as she flies into the air in a tire or whatever. Can we just talk about... I know this is not my show and it's hard for me not to be the host, but can I just talk about Jennifer Hudson as this Grizabella moment? Yeah, let's hear it. You know, I have to give her credit because I'm gonna get in so much trouble, but I don't care because I've done shows with other Broadway BPM people where I talk bad about Ben Platt and all sorts of stuff, so I don't care Broadway people. You can come for me. You could DM me. You could be mad at me. It's okay. You know, she's a very great singer, all right? She's an amazing once-in-a-lifetime singer. Sometimes she's not always the greatest actor, and she gave snot and face and literally tears and sweat, and sometimes I think it's just too much, Mike, and I waited for this whole moment.

I wanted this big, giant moment, and she's singing, but I just felt it made me sad. Where are the other famous Grizabellas? Where's Betty Buckley? Where is the nuance of it? Because Jennifer just sings her face off and can just sing, and they kept the snot in. They kept the snot in, Mike. Just close your eyes and listen. Okay, that's what I should have done. That's a better idea. I've only seen it with that viewing with Alan, and then during COVID, my parents, it ended up on Netflix or ended up on one of those streaming services, and you're at the point where you've watched everything, and so I was like, all right, do you want to watch this? And they were like, yeah, we'll start it, and then about halfway through, they go, does it get better?

And I'm like, it's pretty much this level the whole way through, and they both were like, I'm good, and they turned it off and left. I didn't even get to Grizabella's part in that viewing. Are you a Swifty? I mean, I don't understand people who hate her. So I like her music. I didn't go to the Aries tour. I wasn't spending that kind of money, so I wouldn't say I'm diehard Swifty, but yeah, I mean, of course, she's incredible. She's incredible, and I think she could do anything, and I think she's amazing, and I love her too. I would love to see her do more things like a musical movie or a stretcher. I was here for it. I made a meme. We were talking about this before we started recording, but I made a meme about how she did a hundred and something Aries tours and didn't once sing Macavity.

I was waiting for it. Do you think she tries to hide that part of her career? I don't think she hides it, but I do think a lot of people stepped away from it. They'll acknowledge it, because I did have somebody on the show who went in full cat to the Aries tour in New York, and it went viral on TikTok, but she acknowledged it. It's not like she was ashamed. She made a little cat meow towards him with a claw, so I don't think she's going to avoid it, but I don't think she's going to proactively be talking about it. Okay. If she goes on tour again in the next few years, Mike, I would like to go with you in full cat. In full cat? I'll call the guy back who went. We'll all go in full cat. We just got to get tickets.

Okay, I'm in. Now, let's talk about the Ballroom Cats, because you came back for that incredible experience. I did a ton of episodes with them. They've been the best people to work with, and also a different show that got a lot of cat haters to like cats because of the storytelling. What was your experience there? I have had interviews with people like Antoine Hopper and Jonathan Burke, and I've known them for years in New York and in theater scenes and stuff like that, and I was very excited about it. I mean, Andre De Shields, which you got an interview with, he doesn't say yes to me, but he says yes to you. That's a lot of work, a lot of time to get that one on camera. I believe that for sure, and I went in thinking like, I love ballroom.

Ballroom has become a thing, especially in the gay community as it always has been, but after Pose and after all of the stuff that has been going on about how they're going to do it, and I thought, at the least, you'll hear the music and you'll get to see some fun dancing, and a creative new take. I love that Andrew Lloyd Webber was open enough to doing it because he could take something that is one of his jewels in his crown and make him a lot of money and give the liberty to open it up. But again, I like the idea of the storytelling. I think in the context of a contest and a ballroom scene, I think it adds a different layer that it didn't always get in the junkyard of the Cats musical, et cetera.

This cast is so freaking talented and amazing. So good. My knees hurt so bad just watching them. They were so good. They were all so good. I love that they infused ballroom people and theater people and really kind of brought those two worlds together. You're exactly right. One of the biggest things when I heard about it was I was actually surprised that Andrew Lloyd Webber was kind of willing to let such a creative take happen. And kudos to him for seeing it for what it was and seeing it to be, I mean, it sold out within minutes and for two extensions. I mean, maybe I think three extensions and hopefully has a future life. But it's a different show and the same show all at once. And so it is cool to see him kind of, I don't know if I would say take that risk, but at least allow the evolution of something that has been so well known is really cool and awesome to see for him as someone, you know, again, who's a legend in his own right.

Yeah, he could take it very seriously and not let people touch his stuff and want it to be done in the way that he had originated it. But I also think in terms of Broadway history, it was at a moment where he had that Cinderella just was off Broadway. His show, The Phantom was closing. You know, he didn't have something that was running on Broadway per se at that moment. So I think for him, it was time, you know, he's open to reinvention. And I think that's what makes great artists is that they're going to take something from the time in the 80s when they did it, and then they're going to switch it and flip it and make it modern. And I think that's what they did. And they did it brilliantly.

So I'm here for it. I will say I love bad Cinderella, though. You know, I had Savvy Jackson on my show the other day, and I was talking to her about it. And I love bad Cinderella, too. And I love the music. And I think it was fun. I think we all need to like chill out and have some fun. It was if you went in with the right mindset, same thing as we've been talking about. It was entertaining. Yes. And it had an incredible cast again, really, really talented people. It's some wild songs like some of those songs are horny, like some of those songs are straight up like odd. Well, she's bad Cinderella. She's, you know. Oh, no, I think there's a whole song that's about the mom doing a whole song about the other prince, the other son.

Yes. Like that's it's that sounds a lot. The show was a lot. And I think that people go in thinking something different. And sometimes we need to be open. You know, your whole idea of your podcast, I mean, is there's a joke in the title. There's there's fun in every episode that you get to do where we get to talk about the show. And I think we all need to be a little bit more open to different types of art. And we don't have to take art so seriously all the time. Can we just have fun? I agree. It's it was entertaining. I never walked out of that show angry that I spent time at that show. No. And so I think that that's what I hope, like, and I have felt that way at certain theaters where I'm like, that wasn't for me, but maybe it was for other people.

And so that's why I don't understand. There's a lot of people that trash it. They trash like musicals and art in general. And I'm like, no, it just wasn't for you. Someone else might love it. But I want people who trash musicals to try to dance, sing and act at the same time. And totally not as easy as it. Yeah. So it's very rare that anybody that at least that for me, I walk out of every especially musical sitting there going like I might not have loved the story or I might not have loved like some of the way that they put it together or some of the artistic choices. But every time I'm like, you know what, those performers like that's a feat to do that eight times a week to like, I can't even imagine.

And cats is an extreme version of that, like the dancing that they're forced to do. They're never off stage. They get a break during Mungojerry and Rumple teaser and intermission. And that's about it. Right. And not everyone gets a break of the original show on intermission. That was my favorite part as a kid getting to go walk up on the Winter Garden and just be staring. And I interviewed Cam Page and and you've interviewed a lot of cats people. And it's always fun to talk about. I saw you had Liz Calloway on. Yeah. Like when you hear their stories and you talk to them about their experiences, it's definitely something that is monumental in everyone's career that makes it to be in the show is something that they remember for sure.

We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. All right, let's talk. You mentioned some of the people you interview. Let's talk about your show. OK, so I know your show started on YouTube, right? So it was a YouTube show. And tell me about how it kind of came to life and where it is today. It started over COVID. I was putting out music. I have music out that's available wherever people want to be put to sleep or bored. No, I'm kidding. It's a very jazzy and Broadway-esque and you could listen to it wherever music is heard. And we were putting out an album and the little boutique label president at that time was like, hey, everyone's putting on shows on YouTube or podcasts during COVID.

And it would be a good way to promote the music of my artists. So we had Jessica Vosk on. I was in my basement. I didn't know what I was doing. And that turned into a year's worth of shows every Thursday. And then that turned into something called the Broadway Cast Reunion Series, which it became a business that I never dreamed of that we were going to reunite Broadway cast and sell them to touring houses around the country to engage Broadway people. And we just didn't think that this was a thing, but it became a thing. And then it ended. And I just remember talking to a friend, Robbie Rozelle, who is a cabaret singer and a director and stuff. And he said, why don't you keep doing the show? And I said, nobody will come on.

I don't know anybody. And the show has lived on and then it became a part of BPN, which was super exciting. And I love being a part of BPN. And now it's on Fridays. There's an exclusive chat on Broadway World homepage every Friday as well. So it's just kind of grown. But the part that's weird about my show, Mike, is that it's not only BPN. So it's all sorts of artists. So, you know, we have like some NGL Choppa 18 million follower rapper on next week. We can have Sherri Shepherd on. We could have, you know, we could have Luenell the comedian. And then we have, you know, I don't know, your next Broadway Nista on as well. So like we ran the gamut of all sorts of guests. And I just call it, you know, it's a place where artists talk about art and we have fun and chat.

That's awesome. And so you started on YouTube and you were not part of the Broadway Podcast Network because again, so why? And then let's hear, how did you get involved with the BPN? People started, you know, people, I see people online talking about their podcasts and I just thought, I don't know anything about a pod. I don't know anything about a podcast. I didn't, I don't know anything about a microphone. I didn't know anything about a light. I didn't know how to make a YouTube video. I never knew how to use iMovie. I'm not, I didn't work at Google, Mike. I don't know anything. I'm lucky. I know how to use my iPhone. So, um, and then when the idea came that I had all this content and it's like, it's becomes the problem to me is like, how do you get the audience?

I know there's an audience out there and they want to hear this and how do I get to them? And I knew that the platform opened and I know that we started doing red carpets. When I'd asked to interview a person on Broadway, they were like, we can't get them to do a virtual interview because they're a rehearsal, but would you come to opening? And I would stand next to people that are on VPN and I would be like, I think I have a show that could be our podcast. So I cold, I cold emailed Alan Seales. Like I just, I just sent an email like, hi, I'm Robert. I have a show.

[23:20] Robert Bannon: A lot of episodes and I was like, and I don't know where to put them and they're already done and I have a logo.

[23:27] Alan Seales: You have like 400 plus right at this time. We have 440 something on VPN and then that we were gonna put an old episode up a week.

[23:32] Robert Bannon: But we don't have an old episode a week so there's more even on YouTube and I think we've reached over a thousand interviews. Wow! And I've only started, it'll be two years in September, but it's only March so to have 440 episodes in a year and a half, you know, it's a daily podcast. It's about 15-20 minutes of your day every day.

[23:54] Alan Seales: Yeah, and you mentioned a couple of Cats people, but who are the Cats people you've interviewed?

[24:03] Robert Bannon: Um, we did have Liz and we have had Liz on. We did have Ken Page, you know, Ken Page was before your podcast. It was during quarantine cabaret and cocktails and it was one of my favorite shows ever because it was ridiculous and if you deep-dive the internet you could see it because it's Ken Page, it is Denise Williams who sang like "Let's Hear It for the Boys" in the 80s, like, you know, R&B singer and the men of Las Vegas Chippendales in no shirt. So it's Ken Page, men in no shirt and Denise Williams for an hour and that is worth the price of a free YouTube video if you want to hate watch something.

[24:43] Alan Seales: That is something to—what a grouping! You know, COVID made the booking guests so easy because no one was home.

[24:50] Robert Bannon: Yeah, everyone's home and free. You know, not anywhere to go. Who else have I had on my show? Who have you had?

[24:56] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah, that's why I'm the Jellicle people as well. Like Antoine's been on a few times, Jonathan Burke has been on a few times, and there's gotta be more. I should have done research and that's another thing about my show. You have notes. You have like a lot of comments and written things. I have notes too, but a lot of it is we just roll with the punches.

[25:15] Robert Bannon: Yeah. Well, I can tell you the project that I'm playing with right now that is very emphatic. So we'll see if it actually makes it on like social media or anything later. But Alan, as you know, is a tech guy. I mean, yes, he's a tech guy. I am a marketing person. So I work in marketing for my full-time job, but I do have to dabble with tech just at the company I work for and we have an AI system that allows you to feed it sources and then it can kind of be its own language model.

[25:39] Robert Bannon: And so I have been tinkering with, because every episode I've done I have a transcription just because that's the way the editing service works as it transcribes it anyways, and so I have been able to feed it the transcriptions of all of my episodes and can now ask it questions. And so I have been playing around with that when you talk about because it's the same thing. It's like it's daunting. I've talked to 200 plus people who have done the show and I'm like, yeah, who said that theory? Like this was a great theory. I remember it came from an old Deuteronomy, but I couldn't remember which one. And so I now can go back and have like to the moment that they said it and also ask it for all my theories from old Deuteronomy or all my theories here.

[26:27] Alan Seales: So I've been playing with that this past couple weeks and I need that. Can we make that happen?

[26:31] Robert Bannon: I can show you for it. I can show you what I did. It is definitely time-consuming and tease like we need interns. I need some interns to help work on this stuff for us. That's why it's a cool platform.

[26:44] Alan Seales: Are you trying to get rid of the host? You're trying to AI my job?

[26:47] Robert Bannon: Cool, that was I sent it to Alan because I sent him my first like just kind of the quick things. I texted him being like, "Hey look, this is what it spit out," and he goes, "Yeah, you know you can do that in a podcast." Like I'm aware, but like I don't need to ask it questions like I can type it. I don't need to like talk to AI podcasters asking questions about my own podcast for sure. I get that.

[27:10] Alan Seales: Well, I've had Alan on my show. Alan has done my show and I've done red carpets with Alan and Alan is very techie. He knows how to do lots of things that I don't know how to do on the red carpet, and he's very fun. He's an interesting—I call him my boss on the red carpet, but he doesn't necessarily love that idea. But he is the man of the Broadway Podcast Network and I'm very proud of him for what he's done with the BPN and all the people he's recruited to be a part of it. But what I love most about him is he's really funny and he gets the vibe that it's serious, but it's not like we're here to have a good time. Theater is fun, art and entertainment is fun, and podcasts can be fun too. So like I love being a part of the family that's here at BPM.

[27:49] Robert Bannon: Yeah, my whole tech setup is because of him. He basically told me exactly what to do.

[27:53] Alan Seales: So he's, yeah, he is—I call him podcast dad.

[27:59] Robert Bannon: That's good because that's really feels like. And yeah, I mean he's found this and he is hilarious. He's the one that made the joke like he took my joke and turned it in—he named The Wrong Cat Died. Like this was his name. He came up with the title and that was kind of like us brainstorming and spitballing is how this started was because of our friendship and so super fun.

[28:18] Alan Seales: Just for the record, I don't know if you asked this question, but are you gonna ask me if I think the wrong cat died?

[28:22] Robert Bannon: Oh, yeah, it's coming. Okay. I did. It's my last question. Okay. Thank you because I have an answer. I thought about it.

[28:26] Alan Seales: Okay, well then let's get to it. I want to do my Cats rapid-fire for you then and this will get to that last question. It's always my final question because if you say Grizabella, I'm gonna debate with you. So that's why it's the end.

[28:37] Robert Bannon: Oh, okay, then we're gonna have some conversations then. Okay, so if you could be in Cats one night, which cat do you want to go on as?

[28:43] Alan Seales: Rum, I'm gonna go on—I'm gonna be Rum Tum Tugger. Well, how do you say Tugger?

[28:52] Robert Bannon: I'm Tugger. That's my role. I'm gonna go out there and just wreak havoc and twirl and spin and spin and twirl.

[29:01] Alan Seales: And I think—

[29:03] Robert Bannon: What is your answer?

[29:05] Alan Seales: Hi, well, I can't sing, dance, or anything. So my joke is I think that this is a becomes—as I've done so many of these, it's almost like a philosophical question and like it becomes a little bit of like a personality assessment because there's only two ways people really answer this. It's either they do this is your personality and so it's like this is me and I want to be me and do that on stage or it's the extreme opposite of your personality and it's like I want to go act and just do something that's totally out of character for me. And so I think both of those are kind of fun. So that's where it's like the totally out of character for me is Tugger. I'm much more of a quiet calm Midwesterner. And so like Tugger would be like me embracing just being chaos.

[29:46] Robert Bannon: I think the one that like jokingly is Grizabella would be pretty fun. You're only on stage for 15 minutes, you don't really dance that much, and you get to sing and belt the one like master song everyone knows. And if I could sing it Grizabella's way, well, like the way she sings, I would definitely be out there doing it every karaoke moment I could.

[30:06] Alan Seales: That's fair. That was—I thought about it. I didn't want to—I love—I mean, I can't dance like Jason Derulo and I don't have that body either. So I don't know that, but I'm gonna give it a go.

[30:17] Robert Bannon: Who are your favorite and least favorite cats like character-wise?

[30:22] Alan Seales: Interesting question. Oh, so even though I picked Rum Tum Tugger, I'm gonna say it wrong and y'all are gonna come for me and that's fine. I, you know, as my favorite character, I have to say it is Grizabella because I even though she's got that little part and all of that, I do—I love the song and I don't care if you don't like the song, people out here. I don't care if you hear it's overdone and overplayed and that is a master—"Memories" of the summer is an incredible song. That is a masterpiece, everyone. That is a masterpiece.

[30:46] Robert Bannon: Who—what about least favorite? Do you dislike any of them?

[30:52] Alan Seales: Do I dislike anyone? You know, don't be mad. I—the Mr. Mistoffelees part of in the show and the song in the show and everything is very fun, but I don't—I don't think it's like it doesn't—don't—you're gonna try to get me in trouble. If you're doing it from a plot perspective, it doesn't need—it's not there. It's so important because they bring back Old Deuteronomy.

[31:14] Robert Bannon: Oh, that's fair. But would you like him as a character? Like you'd go to bed at night thinking about how amazing that part is?

[31:21] Alan Seales: I think that the song is fun. I do find the song true and I think that the dance number is incredible and it's another one that I couldn't do. Like those twirls and the spins and stuff, I'm like, yeah, I couldn't do any of that. So I do think I also have done a couple episodes with Jacob Brent who is okay tonight a movie and he's the best and so I'm like, oh yeah, we got to defend his character a little bit.

[31:43] Robert Bannon: All right, we could defend. What about the old? Like what about him having to stand there an intermission in the 80s and 90s? That is a wild choice to me. I've always—I was shocked that they—and they did that in 2016 or in the nut.

[31:55] Alan Seales: Yeah, they didn't do that in '16. They did it in the tour that I saw most recently.

[31:59] Robert Bannon: It's crazy to me that they make that character sit on stage.

[32:04] Alan Seales: Yeah, the whole intermission and then kind of go right in and start singing again.

[32:08] Robert Bannon: What do people—what answer do people usually give Bustopher Jones? Like what do people say Bustopher Jones gets a lot of hate?

[32:14] Alan Seales: Honestly, it's usually somebody where if especially people who performed, it's where the character personality would bug you. It's like some of them will say Tugger because it's like he's a lot. Some will say Macavity because he's kind of the bad guy. Bustopher gets some hate, but it's usually that like someone just said Jenny Any that's recently like, "All right, she's a great person."

[32:35] Robert Bannon: Because I am a lot. I give a lot.

[32:40] Alan Seales: What's your favorite song from the show?

[32:46] Robert Bannon: Oh, hands-down "Memory," but if I had to pick a second one, if I pick "Mr. Mistoffelees," even though I just killed him off in my show, I like the song because I when I went to see it opening night, the repetition of singing that—I don't know if you curse on your show, but that effing song 576,000 times in a circle. It's like 99 bottles of beer on the wall. The audience just—it slowly crept. By the end of it, everyone was just singing this damn song over and over and over again that it now sticks in my head. But "Memories" is the quintessential Cats on the opening of Cats, the overture of, yeah, the commercial and being in New Jersey, you know, it ran every second for 40,000 years. So that's just epically there. It's a part of the American pop culture landscape forever.

[33:27] Alan Seales: I couldn't agree more. I love "Macavity" at this point and then to your point of "Mistoffelees," "Mungo Jerry" and "Rumpleteazer" was the only—those are the only two names I remembered when I walked out the first time because they just say it over and over and over and over again their songs. And then I also realized recently—this I probably realized about a year ago—but when I saw the show again, I think the reason I remember their characters is because that's the only moment in the show where they're the only two on stage. Someone who like is overstimulated watching the show in general, I was like, there's too many cats going. I didn't know where to look, but finally I'm like, oh, I can focus on just these two. And so it's like, yeah, I probably remember them because of that in itself is that like my brain could comprehend just two of them dancing.

[34:10] Robert Bannon: I get that. It's a moment. It's a quiet moment in a not quiet moment show.

[34:14] Alan Seales: I asked one fun one before we get to the important one. So which cat do you think would con their parents into going to see a show?

[34:21] Robert Bannon: Well, I picked him. I mean, it's gonna be Tugger. I mean, Tugger is slick and shady and I love a little slick and shady and that's a funny question. See, that's why he's good people. You need to watch all 2,000 episodes that he's done. Um, I—or listen to, I should say. I think he's the con man. He's perfect. It's him and Macavity.

[34:43] Alan Seales: Any a six-pack and I'm what I don't have that, but I want you so I'm living vicariously through the six-pack of Jason Derulo. Don't you want Jason Derulo in the movie to just say it one might be like, "Jason Derulo"? I was waiting.

[35:30] Robert Bannon: They're not, you know, the cats in the Disney movie. These are alley cats. How long do you want this woman to live? She remembers her life. She is tired. She's done with these. Did you see these cats? They're sexual and dirty. They don't ask for consent. They lick each other. They smell each other. She is tired of this nonsense. She wants to go to Hamilton. I like the passion. Thank you. So let me ask some questions.

[35:54] Robert Bannon: I'm not gonna have good answers to bring this debate around a little bit here. First question is what do you think the Heaviside Lair is? Like where is she going? Are they murdering her? Is she coming back?

[36:05] Unknown speaker: No, I don't think she's coming back. I think she's dead. I think this is it.

[36:11] Robert Bannon: Yes. Okay. What else is there for her to do? She's so long at the end of the first act. So here's my question though. If we're gonna believe the story is that she was shunned from her family, the Jellicles are her family. She was the star in the making, goes off and does something that clearly angers her family so much so that they're not letting her back and they're all mad at her. Then she sings "Memory" and they finally all embrace her. Why can't she live one more year with her family that finally just reaccepted her and go next year?

[36:44] Unknown speaker: Because I think that's the bittersweet nature of the story. It's a redemption story, but with a sad ending.

[36:49] Robert Bannon: Kinda. So it's a redemption story, but instead of redeeming and having this family, it's like no, now we're gonna kill her. But do you want her at the end to just be happy? And firstly, T.S. Eliot's not here to speak about this and Andrew Lloyd Webber, I mean unless you have his email address, he's not gonna email me.

[37:02] Unknown speaker: Well, you know, I just think that at the end, this is something about like she's going on, like ascending to the end. Like this is, she could, you know, you ever read "The Alchemist"? If you're into nerdy and self-help books, her quest is over. She's done. What do you want from her?

[37:23] Robert Bannon: I want her to spend one more year with her family. I want her to be welcomed back. The redemption story is still the same. She still has all the redemption, the family embraces her, she's ready to go. Like go to a birthday party, have one more Christmas, like embrace that moment and then go next year.

[37:39] Unknown speaker: But you can live happily ever after. But you know, you ever hear people who say when they have a relative that's sick and dying and like they wait for like the whole family to come around and see them and then they're like, okay, I saw everyone. I'm done. Maybe she felt like once she made peace with them and they kind of murder her, allegedly, that she was good to go.

[37:55] Robert Bannon: See, but it's interesting because I think this all depends on how you debate the Heaviside Lair and what they're doing because it's like they're gonna sacrifice a cat. So it's not like she's sitting on her deathbed with the family coming around. It's like, okay, I can now let go. It's like no, Old Deuteronomy is gonna murder her.

[38:12] Unknown speaker: But if you are gonna sacrifice the cat, if you know, if you're gonna sacrifice somebody, this sounds very weird, like I'm in the Illuminati and I'm gonna sacrifice somebody to be Jay-Z. I don't know, what are we gonna sacrifice somebody?

[38:22] Robert Bannon: Oh, you're not gonna pick the young hot and poppin' cat. You're not gonna pick the young new cat on the street. You're gonna pick the old dusty cat who's already thinking about death, Gus. That's who you want to die.

[38:35] Unknown speaker: Yeah, Gus should go.

[38:38] Robert Bannon: Well, what do you have against Gus?

[38:41] Unknown speaker: Nothing, but it's his time. It's the same argument. It's his time. He's old, he's dusty, he doesn't have a lot to live for. Have you watched the 1998 movie?

[38:49] Unknown speaker: Okay, it's Sir Patrick Mills. He has cerebral palsy. He's basically on his actual deathbed up there performing. I'm amazed that they got this guy to do this performance because he was unhealthy and old and you can see it. He looks like he's struggling on stage. He was like 90 when they filmed that.

[39:03] Robert Bannon: Wow. And so like you can feel that moment. I felt that moment going, this guy's not gonna make it and I feel that way about Gus.

[39:12] Unknown speaker: But why do you gotta kill the old? Like I know it's your argument, Zack Dargaville just made. Gus is gonna go in a natural way. He's already paid his dues. He's old, he's tired. His name is Asparagus. I'm confused. Just why are you gonna kill him?

[39:28] Robert Bannon: Because he needs to go. Because he's old.

[39:33] Unknown speaker: Yeah, so your whole point of this podcast is that Grizabella shouldn't die because she's old. So your response is to kill the other old one.

[39:37] Robert Bannon: Well, you want to know what my original joke was? Okay, this is how this joke actually started. When I saw the 2016 "Cats," I saw Leona Lewis and I walked out thinking I saw "The X Factor" on drugs. And so my original thought was this is a competition of singing competition. Forget the death, forget the life.

[39:54] Unknown speaker: Oh, there's storytelling, whatever. It's just a produced show where you got everybody that goes up and sings their song and then America votes or Britain votes at the end and that's it.

[40:08] Robert Bannon: And so "The X Factor" is known really, in my opinion, for doing what? Which is taking solo acts and making them very popular, gritty groups. So I want to send Tugger and Mistoffelees, who have this weird sexual energy together, up to the Heaviside Lair together as a new boy band.

[40:24] Unknown speaker: See, you know, that's a good idea. Firstly, I'm obsessed that you saw Leona Lewis do this and what happened to Leona Lewis. And then secondly, I think that the boy band "Cats" is a thing. You know, there's the boy band project, there's a girl band project. There's all these 90 shows, you know, the NSYNC, the gay NSYNC, what's his name? Lance Bass is out touring with them, Chris Kirkpatrick? We could enjoy the tones in "Juliet." Right? Joey Fatone is in "Juliet." We could get a "Cats" band.

[40:50] Robert Bannon: So that was my original idea, but that doesn't fit if you take the story at what the story is. But if you do it as an "X Factor," I want to send the two of them together.

[40:58] Unknown speaker: But you know, I think the idea of it being a scene, like a competition, is how I took it as a kid. Like I thought it was very competitive, like they're trying to compete. We're all gonna do a song to show like we are the superior cat.

[41:09] Robert Bannon: And that's why the PAC Cats work so well because that competition element was so evident to me seeing it the first time and they embrace that in such a cool way.

[41:18] Unknown speaker: So we've all agreed that my answer is correct.

[41:21] Robert Bannon: I mean right now the public voting is still slightly in favor of Grizabella based on every guest I've had, but she's not over 50%. She's less than half the votes. Did you ask Liz Callaway who she voted for?

[41:32] Unknown speaker: I did.

[41:37] Robert Bannon: I'm gonna say Liz Callaway is gonna say Grizabella dies. I'm just putting it out there. Do you wanna know what Liz Callaway says? Am I gonna spoil this for everyone? Listen people, it's a spoiler alert. If you don't want to know what Liz Callaway says, why haven't you listened to it? It's an old episode and you should have heard it already. Liz does defend Grizabella, but I don't think I've met almost any Grizabella's that don't defend Grizabella because they spend so much time having to embrace their own story.

[42:02] Unknown speaker: So it makes sense. Now some of the other, I had Pepe Muno Munoathon recently from Monroe. She's done like nine productions or something. He picks Gus.

[42:08] Robert Bannon: So Gus is here. I can tell you the exact numbers. Right now Grizabella holds 42% of the vote, Gus holds 35% of the vote, and then everyone else has got a couple votes here and there.

[42:26] Unknown speaker: We're all ages. I'm ages. We're all ages. We all killed the two old cats.

[42:31] Robert Bannon: Yeah, Gus, you know, I forgot about Ian McKellen in the movie.

[42:37] Unknown speaker: Yeah, I might have killed him in the movie, but I'm not killing. No, we're killing. We're killing Grizabella. You're sticking with your vote?

[42:42] Robert Bannon: I'm not changing my vote. My goal is not to change the mind of everybody, but my goal is to make people think about it. And then one day I want one regional production to just send a different cat up one time.

[42:49] Unknown speaker: I'll do it. That's what I'm looking for. I'll get sued and everything for you. I'm trying. I'm talking to three different regional productions right now happening in the U.S. and so far I'm over two in getting them to change it. But then we're gonna do some cool things hopefully with both of them.

[43:08] Robert Bannon: That's amazing. I would love that next chapter. I got to come see your "Cats." The other thing is it's on Royal Caribbean cruise, the Oasis of the Seas. It's like their 16th or 17th year doing it and I'm like we could do it there. No one will even notice, right?

[43:19] Unknown speaker: Right. Exactly. That's a good one night. Just let one night. Let me have Gus die like Gus.

[43:24] Robert Bannon: Let's go. The same show, just instead after she finishes "Memory," she instead of walks down the line, she just gets in line with the family. They give her a hug and then loosen Gus up and then Gus just drops, has a heart attack on the floor.

[43:35] Unknown speaker: No, he goes up to the tire.

[43:37] Robert Bannon: The only change I thought about this a lot, the only change you actually have to make is Gus needs to be able to do the tire or whatever mechanic of being strapped in so it's safe. And then after they sing one more song, and it's a big song where it's Old Deuteronomy and the ensemble and everybody else singing, so Grizabella would have to take Gus's spot.

[43:57] Unknown speaker: Okay, you can make that happen.

[44:00] Robert Bannon: That's it. There's no other change. You can make that happen totally until a cease and desist comes from Andrew Lloyd Webber, the Really Useful Group.

[44:06] Unknown speaker: But that's what I was gonna say. That's definitely now that I did a blood. I did a production of "The Music Man" in Sharon, Connecticut with a lot of people who went on to be pretty Broadway people back in the day. And they decided to modernize "The Music Man" and give it cut songs and add different orchestrations and they gave everyone cell phones and Amazon packages except the Wells Fargo wagon. And they decided to make "Shipoopi" a karaoke number with a disco ball. No one asked permission to do any of this and after opening night, we got a cease and desist letter and had to change the whole entire show. So be careful.

[44:37] Robert Bannon: The only thing that we talked about this, he's clearly open to tears as of "Ballroom Cats." He is so, I think there's still, there's a chance. I don't know for it. I just want one night. I'm not asking to do it for like a full year or even a full production. Just one night.

[44:53] Unknown speaker: Oh, I say for one night like Grizabella or if you really want to cause chaos though, the really fun thing would let actually it be a vote. Let Old Deuteronomy choose each night depending on how either the actors perform or audience screaming.

[45:07] Robert Bannon: And I know that they did that. There was a regional production. They got in trouble for doing this, so it's been written about on record. But they did that for "A Chorus Line" and they got in trouble. And so there's little fear to do that again.

[45:20] Unknown speaker: They could get away with it in "Ballroom Cats" because you know what? That's the number like the holding that, yeah.

[45:25] Robert Bannon: I like it. Okay, you made a good argument. I'm gonna be the expert. I'm again, I'm just here to make people think about it, but I want Grizabella dead.

[45:37] Unknown speaker: Okay, I'll mark your vote. Thank you.

[45:41] Robert Bannon: How can people stay in touch with your show, YouTube, everything?

[45:42] Unknown speaker: Sure, you can follow me at Robert Bannon on Instagram and you can check me out on the Broadway Podcast Network or go to YouTube. Like, comment, share, and subscribe. We're live. We do a live show every Thursday where I tell you things you don't want to know about me, like my life and my shameless plug segment. And we talk about a week in review and I have a whole, I moved to Detroit seven months ago to get married to my husband. So I talk about learning Detroit every week. It's a ridiculous messy show live on Thursday nights on YouTube and then every day here on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[46:09] Robert Bannon: I love it. We'll link everything to you so people can find it and this has been so fun. I'm hoping that one day I can be a guest on your show. Thanks so much.

[46:17] Unknown speaker: I appreciate you and congrats on all that you've done. It's so much fun. This is a great show.

[46:21] Robert Bannon: Well, thank you. And thanks everyone for listening to this episode of "The Wrong Cat Died" podcast. To follow, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else podcasts fall. Follow on social media at The Wrong Cat Died or check out the website, thewrongcatdied.com.