This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally. And I'm Andrew DeWolf. And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater. And this week, we have an extra special 10 years in the making guest that I'm so excited to have on. Please join me in welcoming the creator of the Heated Rivalry comedy show, assistant art director from Dropout TV's Game Changer, the inspiration for the Dear Friends podcast, and a nationally touring comedian, our friend and yours, Erin Cholakian. Hi, Erin!

[0:44] Erin Cholakian: Wow. Oh, my God. Wait, that's so crazy hearing all of that said out loud. The Dear Friend poll is so crazy. I like always forget about that part of life.

[0:56] Jesse McAnally: The former host of Someone Else's Problem podcast, and you had a Christian book podcast at one point.

[1:04] Erin Cholakian: Yes, the After Rapture party. I forgot about that as well. I just make a lot of things that sometimes I do not stick to, is what I'm learning in this conversation.

[1:15] Jesse McAnally: The thing is, you may not remember, but I do.

[1:18] Erin Cholakian: Thank God.

[1:21] Jesse McAnally: I know you're multi-hyphenate.

[1:23] Erin Cholakian: So you don't have to.

[1:24] Jesse McAnally: That is...

[1:25] Erin Cholakian: Somebody's got to.

[1:26] Jesse McAnally: So when we met, you were a 20-something out in LA just making it work. And in between that time, you became like an axe-throwing mogul. Then you became like an art director and a podcaster. And now you are a nationally touring comedian that's been all over the place. And yet we still haven't met in person because you hate me so much.

[1:52] Erin Cholakian: I hate you so much. No, are you kidding? I was like one of the first people that watched your movie and gave you notes on it.

[1:58] Jesse McAnally: Lady, you're in the movie.

[1:59] Erin Cholakian: I'm in your movie because my graduation picture is in there. I was murdered.

[2:04] Jesse McAnally: No, I... Sorry, is that like, did I just ruin the whole movie?

[2:09] Erin Cholakian: For the 0.7 seconds I'm filmed?

[2:12] Jesse McAnally: No, it's so crazy. It's like we've been so entwined for such a long time, and it doesn't even hit me that we haven't met until we do this. And then I'm like, and we haven't even met. What is happening? So that's going to be a magical meeting. But yeah, it's been such a long internet friendship that it's so crazy. When we grew up, we had parents saying, don't make friends on the internet. And now so many of my best people in my life are people I met on the internet. Everyone on this podcast currently are people I've met on the internet.

[2:46] Erin Cholakian: Exactly.

[2:48] Jesse McAnally: Hey!

[2:48] Erin Cholakian: Now, we are talking about something that was one of our first episodes on our original run of Musicals with Cheese. And now we're coming back, we've gotten older. And also the thing is these shows are adapting with the times and changing. And this is one that I felt greatly changed because I have had a complicated relationship with this show. And Erin, you picked this right away. So this week, we are talking about Next to Normal.

[4:17] Jesse McAnally: So, Next to Normal is a musical written by Brian Yorkey and Tom Kitt. Brian Yorkey is a man that's done a net good for society by creating, what is it, The 13th Reason, 13 Reasons Why. He's the man responsible for that. But he got his jumpstart here handling suicide just as well. It is based on an original concept, again, as a 10-minute workshop sketch called Feeling Electric, written for the BMI Musical Theatre Workshop in the late 90s. That's why it's so rocky and so based on that rock because it was like a pastiche on rock musicals and a critique of ECT. It opened off Broadway at the Second Stage Theatre on January 16th and closed on March 16th, 2008. That is the one that was on a bootleg with Brian Darcy James and Alice Ripley.

It had the songs like Feeling Electric and Costco, which just ruined the flow, but I grew up on that bootleg. It premiered on Broadway in previews March 27th, 2009, and opened officially April 15th, 2009 at the Booth Theatre and closed January 16th, 2011 after 21 previews and 733 regular performances. Now, that is not what we're talking about today. In October of 2022, it was announced that the show would receive its London premiere at the Donmar Warehouse in a new production directed by Michael Longhurst. The production ran from August 12th to October 7th, 2023, over 15 years after the original premiered in New York. It was filmed and a version with censorship aired on PBS's Great Performances on May 9th, 2025 in the United States and released in UK cinemas uncensored on September 11th and 14th, 2025.

This show, in its original release, won several Tonys, nominated for 11th, won three for Best Original Score, Best Orchestrations, and Best Performance by a Leading Actress in a Musical, Alice Ripley. Yuck. It also won the Pulitzer Prize for Drama in 2010, becoming only the eighth musical in history to receive this honor, the first since Rent in 1996. Andrew, trivia question. Can you name the two that have happened since?

[6:33] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, no. We've seen one live on Broadway, and the other one is the musical everyone and their mother knows.

[6:40] Jesse McAnally: Okay, so The Lion King, obviously.

[6:49] Andrew DeWolf: Nope.

[6:49] Jesse McAnally: Oh, shoot. Is it Hamilton?

[6:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, that is one. Okay. Is the other one Strange Loop?

[6:55] Jesse McAnally: That is correct. You got it. Ten points. Okay. The hints helped. The hints helped a lot. I did kind of give that to you. The plot of Next to Normal is, it centers on Diana Goodman, a suburban mother struggling with worsening bipolar disorder and the effects that managing her illness has on her family. With a contemporary rock score, the show explores how mental illness ripples through a family, shaping love, denial, hope, and healing. Now, Erin, what is your history with Next to Normal, and how has your opinion changed over the years? Because I'm assuming it was kind of big when you were younger.

[7:24] Erin Cholakian: Oh, it was huge when I was a kid. I was obsessed with Next to Normal. When I was in show choir in high school, every chance I got, I was singing Superboy and the Invisible Girl. I was singing that song every single day. And even in high school, I was like, I want to play Diana Goodman one day, which is a crazy thing to say at 14, 15.

[7:49] Jesse McAnally: You do not feel Diana-coded at all, I want to say.

[7:58] Erin Cholakian: No, I don't. I think I just have always been the person where I'm like, whatever the hardest thing is, I'm gonna do it. Why stop doing that? I was a huge fan of the musical, but I never watched the musical all the way through. I never watched a bootleg, a slime tutorial, or saw it live. This pro shot was actually my first time watching it all the way through. Part of me was like, I should go back and watch a slime tutorial. And then I was like, no, I want to be, because I knew that you guys had seen it. I was like, I want to be the only person that has only seen the pro shot, so I can only come to this with knowing the music from the original and the actual staging from the pro shot.

[8:35] Jesse McAnally: I think that's actually a very interesting take. I come from a very similar part. Next to Normal was huge for me in high school. I was obsessed with the bootlegs. I did not like the album. The album is famously riddled with autotune errors. There's times where they tune very clearly errantivate to a wrong note, and same with J. Robert Spencer. Specifically, the one that's trapped in my head is J. Robert Spencer when he sings, I am the one where it's like, we've been fine for so long now, and now I can't hear the song without hearing the autotune.

[9:26] Erin Cholakian: Wait, that's so funny.

[9:28] Jesse McAnally: It's just a really poorly produced album. So the one I really gravitated to was a soundboard of the Off-Broadway production with Brian Darcy James, who I just thought was a better Dan altogether. Anything Brian Darcy James does is top notch, mind you. Love that man. And he gets hotter with age. And yeah, the show wore badly on me, specifically because of points brought up by my wonderful co-host, Andrew, in our episode, and I just had to reinterpret it. And so much of that show was tied up in Alice Ripley, because she kind of made that who she was an extension of her in a way, where you could not separate that show from her. And Alice Ripley has had a weird couple years post-pandemic. Google it, kids, because I don't really feel like going into that today, but she grooming and allegations.

And now the only production she can get a professional theater is doing immersive productions of Next to Normal in a foreign country, even well into her—she has to be 50 now—playing a child raising a child, quote-unquote. Yeah, it ain't working. Andrew, how did you feel about Next to Normal in your original watch?

[10:52] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, well, it was a while ago. But if I recall, the main thing I remember is we talked about how I didn't like that they sort of portray using pharmaceuticals to treat mental illness as just like a bad thing, just entirely. But I can't remember what else I thought, because looking at it now, I think the music is generally pretty good. And I like some other aspects of it. But it's like back then, I'm not sure what I thought.

[11:24] Jesse McAnally: Your big opinion was it made it seem like going off your meds and abandoning your family is the best choice you could ever make. Like, that is—

[11:32] Andrew DeWolf: I think it still—it kind of does do that, right?

[11:40] Jesse McAnally: That's one way to interpret the ending.

[11:43] Andrew DeWolf: I think that this version handles it a lot better, where the original Broadway really is just like, I'm off my meds! I'm free! I feel like I know myself! Good luck, family! And here it's showing that she's actively trying to get better, to return to normalcy, to put herself first, but also have that connection. Like, this has been inspired by a lot of—

[12:07] Erin Cholakian: And she does go—she goes back on meds at the end of the pro shot.

[12:10] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, and—

[12:11] Jesse McAnally: Like, there's a shot of them handing her—

[12:14] Andrew DeWolf: That does not happen in the original Broadway cast at all.

[12:19] Jesse McAnally: That makes sense. That tracks for the time that it came out. It's a weird feeling of, like—and especially, like, a man who—Brian Yorkey, who I know would not handle similar issues in the same laissez-faire way with 13 Reasons Why, which would lead to the death of a lot of teenagers because they didn't handle them particularly great.

[12:42] Erin Cholakian: Yeah.

[12:42] Andrew DeWolf: I don't wanna—I don't know anything about that. I know that that show was not well-received by a lot of people.

[12:48] Erin Cholakian: I've not—

[12:49] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I purposely didn't watch it.

[12:50] Erin Cholakian: I also have not watched it, but I do know the impact, and I know Brian Darcy James is in it. That's the height of my information on 13 Reasons Why. Now, this pro shot seems to, like, have someone that might have taken a look at the original content removed for about 10-plus years and thinking, how might we do this and remove the Alice Ripley of it all, remove the anti-medication of it all, and kind of have a whole new take on it, and maybe remove the incestuous part of the gay-Diana relationship a bit? Like, we'll pull that back, like, 30%.

[13:27] Erin Cholakian: I did write a note in the middle of this, of watching this, that literally just said, this is Boy Mom, Boy Mom the Musical.

[13:34] Jesse McAnally: She, like, she, like, creates an older version that she can, like, dance with and shit, and it's like—

[13:44] Erin Cholakian: Yeah.

[13:45] Jesse McAnally: And it was, and I do, I do know that it was so much worse than the original. So even, even watching it now, I was like, ooh, this is still hitting in a way that's making me mad.

[13:56] Erin Cholakian: I mean, we don't have Aaron Tveit shirtless, like, looking like this glistened god—

[14:01] Jesse McAnally: Exactly, where it's like, at least that, at least that's gone.

[14:04] Erin Cholakian: And I think—

[14:05] Jesse McAnally: God, I didn't even remember that.

[14:06] Erin Cholakian: My god, did that actually happen? Holy shit.

[14:09] Jesse McAnally: And I think that Jack Wolfe, who plays Gabe in this production, adds nuance to this character, as opposed to sexy devil on the shoulder. There is some kind of internal logic he's playing with, and pain he's playing with, and the original pitch—

[14:26] Erin Cholakian: Jack is amazing.

[14:28] Jesse McAnally: He's amazing.

[14:29] Erin Cholakian: He's a great villain.

[14:30] Jesse McAnally: The best Broadway villain?

[14:35] Erin Cholakian: Best Broadway villain, maybe.

[14:37] Jesse McAnally: When this pro shot came out, everybody was talking about it. So I, like, I didn't watch it yet. I watched it, I watched it literally before this. I hadn't watched—

[14:45] Erin Cholakian: Yet but everybody was talking about this kid Jack and I was like yeah yeah yeah I'm sure he's good and then I watched it today and I was like on the edge of my seat every time they showed him. I could not get enough of his choices! I needed more! And the fact that he looks just kind of like a kid like that's my favorite thing like he still he exactly he still looks like a kid like Aaron Tveit looked like not a kid he that was a that was a full man. And there was justification with that in the writers and I parroted this in the original episode which is they were using him as a representation of mental illness and mental illness tends to give you whatever you're aiming for at that moment whether it is a parental figure to parent or a sexual figure to like be wanted by and it changes depending on your needs at any given moment.

And that is a very blank way of presenting this incest yes incest. And I like this that just feels a little more nuanced a little more interesting. I also want to talk about Cassie Levy who plays Diana with so much more intensity than I've seen previously.

[16:07] Jesse McAnally: Yeah I never liked Alice Ripley's performance from a vocal standpoint. I had a really hard time listening to her songs.

[16:14] Erin Cholakian: What? No.

[16:23] Jesse McAnally: I don't think I'm alone in that. I don't think that is a hot take. I love you as much as I can.

[16:28] Erin Cholakian: So I was actually but it was interesting because I think that the reason it worked in the time period that it was is that they really leaned into this girl is so this woman is so crazy it doesn't matter what she sounds like is like kind of the point or at least what I took from it. So it was so interesting to watch something where the exterior and the vocal is so classic suburban beautiful white woman and then to see the and it also kind of reminds me of Jagged Little Pill like the mom in Jagged Little Pill is like addicted to drugs and that kind of stuff but she also is like this like beautiful white woman that like white woman trope that's like everything's perfect on the outside but behind closed doors things are all wrong. And so it was so interesting to hear the these songs not only sung so beautifully but also with that like that punch that you are missing from the original recording. It's so good.

[17:25] Jesse McAnally: She crushes. She crushes.

[17:27] Erin Cholakian: Yes and it's coming from character instead of just coming from how can I have the biggest emotion and that was my biggest struggle with Alice Ripley's performances. She was I'm gonna be big at every moment and it's gonna be cranked to a hundred so there isn't any variety where I thought for years I hated the song I Miss the Mountains and then I heard Cassie Levy sing it.

[17:51] Jesse McAnally: Well of course because how could you possibly listen to it? Sorry but like that was it was hard it was hard and now like I could probably go listen to that song right now on Spotify and not even if it's even on Spotify but like and not even blink an eye it's so beautiful.

[18:07] Erin Cholakian: Where I feel like that original production was was for the boys you were there for like the Dan and the Gage and the Henrys and here all of them are kind of so much more boring compared to the performance Cassie Levy is putting on aside from the young woman that plays Natalie who is fantastic.

[18:26] Jesse McAnally: Oh my gosh she's yeah I think she is perfect those two specifically mom and daughter are so perfectly cast next to each other that I it's striking I can't I just so good.

[18:40] Erin Cholakian: I feel like it really really works too because the way that their stories kind of go off of each other it's it's perfect I think but she does a good job.

[18:48] Jesse McAnally: The mirroring there's constant I think it's interesting too because like Natalie's biggest fear is becoming her mom one day and every time she has a scene with Henry mom and dad also have a scene that like mirrors it almost to a T but just in different age ranges and it's so oh my god it's heartbreaking really.

[19:08] Erin Cholakian: Okay Aaron I'm so glad you brought that up because this was kind of a conversation Andrew and I were having off mic before this. I am in agreement with you that the mirroring is mostly about Dan and Diana and Henry and Natalie like that is the mirror. Andrew had a very interesting take of he thought that Henry was mirroring the doctor and like as far as providing meds to an unstable woman.

[19:31] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah I guess early on there's the scene where she's getting meds from the from the doctors and that's the first time that he's trying to give her marijuana as well.

[19:44] Erin Cholakian: Yeah and I thought that that was what they were going for I thought that was the parallel they wanted us to make but it could also just be both it could be because the it is also the case that the the father character is kind of forcing the meds onto the the wife as well so.

[20:04] Jesse McAnally: It's so interesting that you bring this up because my my roommate walked in when I was finishing up the musical a little bit ago and he mentioned that he thought that the the closer was so much better in the pro shot because in the first iteration it was very like and everything is fine and family is lovely no matter what and he was talking about how he loved the the change but he didn't need the doctor there he was like it was kind of strange that the doctor came out for this like family we're all in the light now moment and then I thought about it and I was like well well truly the doctor is there because the doctor is a part of their family like the meds the medication the the doctor visits the bipolar disorder is all a part of the family so he's kind of like this embodiment of that struggle and so I do understand why that would be the same kind of um mirror where it's like he's he if anything Henry is just mirroring the family as a whole it's like he puts up with whatever gets thrown at him he just tries to quiet it down by using whatever he has at his uh beck and call and then when it goes too far he tries to take it all away so it's like such an interesting um mirror throughout the entire show.

[21:24] Jesse McAnally: Now do we bring up the big green muppet in the room?

[21:30] Erin Cholakian: I didn't know this was a thing I commented this on my own entirely and I guess really says it was a thing I was just watching it and I was like there was one song like halfway through where it's really strong and I'm like the dad just sounds like a deep voice Kermit it's so like uncanny so I guess this was a thing I didn't know I told someone a couple days ago that I was doing this podcast about the uh the next on oral pro shot and they go they go oh are you guys going to talk about Kermit and I went I went what because of course I thought Kermit must be in this musical so I was like they added Kermit and then they did then I was watching the musical and I have to say ever since I watched Eddie Redmayne in uh Les Mis no one sounds like Kermit to me aside from him the way that man sings in Les Mis is so Kermit like that anybody else that you try to compare to Kermit it just doesn't hit it for me because I have Eddie Redmayne to compare them off of.

[22:30] Jesse McAnally: The sad part is you're right even for Kermit even Kermit doesn't sound like Kermit anymore even Kermit doesn't sound like Kermit anymore Eddie Redmayne singing in Les Mis is Kermit it's insane so I think what here's my interpretation because half I didn't get this until halfway through it was like after the hour mark there's a song that sounds and he sounds very much I wish I knew what song it was I'm guessing if it's a halfway point I'm guessing it's I've been because that's kind of him on stage.

[22:59] Erin Cholakian: Yeah I think so and I think it's using a melody that is very similar to one used in a Muppet song and I think that is what and I think it's one of the songs from the uh the Muppet movie like the newer one um I think because that's why that's why people just think that yeah and I was his voice kind of has the little twang to it although he's much deeper um but also I think it's he's doing kind of a melody from the Muppets and it's like okay wait because that's what I picked up on it that's right when I got it.

[23:40] Jesse McAnally: Maybe that's also why it doesn't hit me as much as somebody else because I didn't grow up on the Muppets so like maybe I'm just out of the zeitgeist for this I feel like Muppets are a thing like you're either like a hundred percent or missed you completely.

[23:51] Erin Cholakian: Exactly I just had a mom that had no whimsy she was like no what you're gonna watch Puppets absolutely not so we can't do our bit about how uh Miss Piggy's got bipolar disorder no bits about that.

[24:05] Jesse McAnally: Oh my god wait that's intriguing I just watched a uh TikTok edit about Miss Piggy and Kermit and how like Miss Piggy was so misunderstood she was just on the wrong meds she was seeing her dead piglet son oh gosh that's so funny her dead piglet son oh my gosh oh man I I do gotta say like I we talk about West End theater versus American theater a lot and how they different in styles British actors are trained properly and have a very specific way and American singers yeah they go to Carnegie Mellon they go to University of Michigan and they all sound the same in that same form I feel that these are professional theater performers by the Royal Shakespeare Company and done a lot of things and the rock sensibility does no favors to these professionally polished voices and it just feels a little off to me except for Cassie Levy and Eleanor Worthington Cox most British name ever and Jack Wolf those three we kind of get it everyone else I I do agree I think what's what I missed from the dad is because I love the the voice in the original um soundtrack I love his voice I think it really matches that rock style and also I can hear the desperation in his voice not only for his wife but for himself like I can hear that he is like I I need you to get on the meds because I need you to get on the meds um and I think that in this interpretation it's it's more of a I need you to get on the meds because that's what I've been told you need to do and like this is what I've two plus two equals four if you're crashing out I take you to the doctor you get on the meds I don't have to think about my dead son anymore that I can see in the room and I'm not talking about um so that that is such a it was just like a different choice for me um that I I wasn't I was just shocked to see I just thought there would be more of that like rock sensibility that I was used to uh but I think because Cassie is doing it it kind of is okay like it's like it's kind of okay that he's like a little bit softer and she really takes the reins on it but like you said it's no longer that boyhood musical that it that it used to be.

[26:31] Andrew DeWolf: Can I can I butt in for a second?

[26:33] Jesse McAnally: No I'd love you to know.

[26:37] Andrew DeWolf: I did some research okay asking permission in a podcast is awesome um excuse me may I butt in so um I've been in the very beginning part there's a part where he's like like that you know what I'm saying.

[27:02] Erin Cholakian: Yeah but you were googling while I was talking.

[27:06] Andrew DeWolf: Listen to listen to pictures in my head from from the muppets.

[27:12] ♪ Musical number ♪

[28:15] Jesse McAnally: That's why he asked for permission because he didn't even know where we were he didn't even know what planet we were on he was going I'm excuse me I know what planet we were on he was like um excuse me I have I have Kermit news I found it go in edit this in Jess okay I've made the marker I've made it's the same fucking song that's why everyone thinks he sounds like Kermit someone needs to do fan art of this immediately.

[28:43] Erin Cholakian: On that note how about we go into a mid-show.

[29:31] Jesse McAnally: Comes the acclaimed Broadway musical Next to Normal, winner of three Tony Awards and the Pulitzer Prize.

[29:39] Jesse McAnally: The New York Times calls this groundbreaking show, brave and breathtaking.

[29:43] Jesse McAnally: Much more than a feel-good musical, it is a feel-everything musical.

[29:48] Jesse McAnally: Next to Normal, starring Alice Ripley in her legendary Tony Award-winning performance.

[29:53] Jesse McAnally: Coming to Playhouse Square June 7-19, part of the KeyBank Broadway Series.

[30:00] Jesse McAnally: Next to Normal, starring Alice Ripley in her legendary Tony Award-winning performance.

[30:30] Jesse McAnally: Next to Normal, starring Alice Ripley in her legendary Tony Award-winning performance.

[31:01] Jesse McAnally: Next to Normal, starring Alice Ripley in her legendary Tony Award-winning performance.

[31:23] Jesse McAnally: Next to Normal, starring Alice Ripley in her legendary Tony Award-winning performance.

[31:30] Jesse McAnally: Next to Normal, starring Alice Ripley in her legendary Tony Award-winning performance.

[32:00] Jesse McAnally: Next to Normal, starring Alice Ripley in her legendary Tony Award-winning performance.

[32:30] Jesse McAnally: Next to Normal, starring Alice Ripley in her legendary Tony Award-winning performance.

[33:00] Jesse McAnally: Next to Normal, starring Alice Ripley in her legendary Tony Award-winning performance.

[33:05] Jesse McAnally: Now, some folks will tell you that I'm dealing in poison.

[33:08] Andrew DeWolf: But, hey, do I look like the kind of guy that would do that to a kid like you?

[33:12] Erin Cholakian: Yes!

[33:15] Jesse McAnally: Where's the beef?

[33:28] Andrew DeWolf: When you drive to Wendy's and order a single, you get more beef than the Whopper or the Big Mac.

[33:40] Jesse McAnally: Where's the beef?

[33:42] Jesse McAnally: The point is, you never have to ask where's the beef.

[33:55] Jesse McAnally: It's time for everyone's favorite section of the show, where we compare our opinions to those of the real critics over on Letterboxd.com.

[34:03] Jesse McAnally: It's time for Previews!

[34:07] Jesse McAnally: It's time for Previews!

[34:11] Jesse McAnally: It's time for Previews!

[34:14] Jesse McAnally: Alright, Erin, this is your first time doing this.

[34:18] Jesse McAnally: This is a game where you and Andrew go head-to-head and have to guess whether these are one-star or five-star reviews on Letterboxd.com.

[34:27] Erin Cholakian: Okay.

[34:29] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, Andrew, do you want to go first?

[34:32] Andrew DeWolf: Absolutely. I'm always ready, and I feel like I'm going to ace this one.

[34:39] Andrew DeWolf: Old adjit ruined the movie, period.

[34:42] Andrew DeWolf: Prob on crack, period.

[34:44] Andrew DeWolf: Duh did it better, dot dot.

[34:48] Erin Cholakian: Who did it better?

[34:50] Andrew DeWolf: D-A. Duh.

[34:52] Andrew DeWolf: Duh.

[34:54] Andrew DeWolf: Duh did it...

[34:56] Andrew DeWolf: You know, I thought I was going to ace it, but this is hard.

[34:59] Erin Cholakian: You came in too confident.

[35:01] Andrew DeWolf: You're supposed to guess if it's a one-star or a five-star review?

[35:03] Erin Cholakian: Yeah, based on nothing but the reviewer.

[35:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I mean, that feels extremely negative, and it's ridiculous.

[35:07] Erin Cholakian: Yeah, that's a one-star for sure.

[35:09] Andrew DeWolf: Are you going to agree?

[35:11] Erin Cholakian: I'm going to have to agree. I think that's a one.

[35:13] Jesse McAnally: That is correct! Alright!

[35:15] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, good, good.

[35:17] Erin Cholakian: Your turn.

[35:19] Erin Cholakian: Okay.

[35:21] Erin Cholakian: Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, five Ws.

[35:23] Erin Cholakian: Was it Toad? Was that the Toad?

[35:25] Erin Cholakian: It was just that?

[35:27] Erin Cholakian: Oh!

[35:29] Erin Cholakian: Yeah, that's five stars for sure.

[35:31] Jesse McAnally: That is correct!

[35:33] Erin Cholakian: That's like if Toad got hit by a banana.

[35:35] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[35:39] Jesse McAnally: Andrew, are you ready?

[35:41] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[35:43] Jesse McAnally: This is just...

[35:45] Jesse McAnally: Theater Kid Arkham Knight.

[35:49] Andrew DeWolf: That is such a specific reference.

[35:51] Andrew DeWolf: Theater Kid Arkham Knight.

[35:53] Andrew DeWolf: I didn't...

[35:55] Andrew DeWolf: I don't think I played that one.

[35:57] Erin Cholakian: It's a Batman, and I think he's in a mental hospital.

[35:59] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I think so.

[36:01] Andrew DeWolf: Is that...

[36:03] Andrew DeWolf: a good thing? No one liked Arkham Knight when that came out, but I think that was because it had a bad PC port.

[36:09] Andrew DeWolf: I'm going to go five. That's a five.

[36:11] Jesse McAnally: That is incorrect! That was a one.

[36:13] Erin Cholakian: Aaron!

[36:15] Erin Cholakian: It was the word just that made it a one.

[36:17] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, just.

[36:19] Erin Cholakian: I didn't think of that.

[36:21] Erin Cholakian: Aaron. Yes.

[36:23] Erin Cholakian: Fuckass Musical.

[36:27] Andrew DeWolf: Damn.

[36:29] Erin Cholakian: Okay, this one's the hardest one.

[36:31] Erin Cholakian: Because Fuckass Musical can be, I'm giving this a five stars and how dare you do this to me.

[36:37] Erin Cholakian: Or it could be one stars and I fucking hate this.

[36:41] Erin Cholakian: And I'm going to say that what I would assume it would be...

[36:45] Erin Cholakian: I'm going to say five.

[36:47] Jesse McAnally: Even though it's probably a one, I'm going to say five.

[36:49] Jesse McAnally: Aaron knows how this game works. That is a five!

[36:51] Erin Cholakian: Damn.

[36:53] Erin Cholakian: Good one on that.

[36:55] Erin Cholakian: That's a tough one.

[36:57] Jesse McAnally: Now, Andrew, this is the last one.

[37:01] Jesse McAnally: Or no, there's two more.

[37:03] Jesse McAnally: Basically you could either tie this or lose.

[37:07] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. You ready?

[37:09] Andrew DeWolf: I'm probably going to lose either way, but we'll see who's shot.

[37:11] Jesse McAnally: Dad sounded exactly like Will Ferrell.

[37:15] Andrew DeWolf: Spelled with an A. Spelled incorrectly.

[37:17] Andrew DeWolf: Will Ferrell?

[37:19] Andrew DeWolf: Will Ferrell?

[37:21] Andrew DeWolf: Are we being for real here?

[37:23] Erin Cholakian: I thought it was Kermit.

[37:25] Jesse McAnally: Okay.

[37:27] Jesse McAnally: So we got Will Ferrell.

[37:29] Jesse McAnally: Sounds just like Will Ferrell.

[37:31] Andrew DeWolf: Do we like that?

[37:33] Andrew DeWolf: Is that a good thing?

[37:35] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know. He was in a musical spirited.

[37:37] Andrew DeWolf: I'm going to say that's not a good thing because I saw spirited and it wasn't really that great.

[37:43] Jesse McAnally: So we're going to say one.

[37:45] Jesse McAnally: That is correct. Aaron, you could either win this or tie.

[37:49] Erin Cholakian: Are you ready?

[37:51] Erin Cholakian: Yes.

[37:53] Erin Cholakian: Jack Wolf carried.

[37:57] Erin Cholakian: That's a five.

[37:59] Jesse McAnally: You have tied. That was a one.

[38:01] Andrew DeWolf: And...

[38:03] Andrew DeWolf: That was scary because they were clearly saying that he was the only person good in the show, so it deserves a one star.

[38:09] Erin Cholakian: What jerks.

[38:11] Andrew DeWolf: The carried...

[38:13] Andrew DeWolf: You got just wrong and I got carried wrong.

[38:15] Erin Cholakian: Just carried.

[38:17] Jesse McAnally: I got to say, that was a pretty intense game and both of you did great.

[38:21] Jesse McAnally: Rock on, brother.

[38:23] Jesse McAnally: Give it my best.

[38:25] Erin Cholakian: Speaking of rocking on, let's talk about some of these songs.

[38:29] Jesse McAnally: Yes, please.

[38:31] Jesse McAnally: I need to talk about Jack so many times.

[38:33] Erin Cholakian: I do want to start with Just Another Day, which I still think is a really effective opening number.

[38:41] Erin Cholakian: It only hurts when I breathe.

[38:43] Erin Cholakian: It only hurts when I cry.

[38:47] Erin Cholakian: It only hurts when I blush.

[38:51] Erin Cholakian: It only hurts when I sigh.

[38:55] Erin Cholakian: Just another day.

[39:01] Erin Cholakian: You wish you knew.

[39:07] Erin Cholakian: Just another day.

[39:09] Erin Cholakian: You wish you knew.

[39:13] Erin Cholakian: You wish you knew.

[39:17] Erin Cholakian: You wish you knew.

[39:21] Erin Cholakian: You wish you knew.

[39:25] Erin Cholakian: Every day is just another.

[39:27] Erin Cholakian: And another.

[39:29] Erin Cholakian: And another.

[39:31] Erin Cholakian: I will hold it all together.

[39:33] Erin Cholakian: We're the perfect loving family.

[39:35] Erin Cholakian: They say we're nonsense.

[39:37] Erin Cholakian: Fuck off!

[39:39] Erin Cholakian: We're the perfect loving family.

[39:41] Erin Cholakian: I will keep the place all spinning.

[39:43] Erin Cholakian: And the world just keeps on spinning.

[39:45] Erin Cholakian: And I guess the house is spinning.

[40:35] Jesse McAnally: He's too hot to be on coke.

[41:05] Jesse McAnally: is a completely different lesson.

[41:09] Jesse McAnally: How do you feel about how it ends?

[41:11] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:13] Erin Cholakian: And another.

[41:15] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:17] Erin Cholakian: And another.

[41:19] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:23] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:25] Erin Cholakian: And another.

[41:27] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:29] Erin Cholakian: And another.

[41:31] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:33] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:35] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:37] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:39] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:41] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:43] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:45] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:47] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:49] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:51] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:53] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:55] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:57] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[41:59] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:01] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:03] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:05] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:07] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:09] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:11] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:13] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:15] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:17] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:19] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:21] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:23] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:25] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:27] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:29] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:31] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:33] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:35] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:37] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:39] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:41] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:43] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:45] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:47] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:49] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:51] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:53] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:55] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:57] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[42:59] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:01] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:03] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:05] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:07] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:09] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:11] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:13] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:15] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:17] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:19] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:21] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:23] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:25] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:27] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:29] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:31] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:33] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:35] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:37] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:39] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:41] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:43] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:45] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:47] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:49] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:51] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:53] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:55] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:57] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[43:59] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[44:01] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[44:03] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[44:05] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[44:07] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[44:09] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[44:11] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[44:13] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[44:15] Erin Cholakian: It's another.

[44:59] Jesse McAnally: Which, I said earlier, like, I didn't like this song for so long, I'm pretty sure I didn't even talk about it in our first episode, because it's just kind of like a, eh, song for me. But here, I really felt it. And really, the main thing I wanted to bring up, and I don't know if you've seen this clip, Erin, have you seen the Masterclass with Patti LuPone, where she had a student perform "I Miss the Mountains," and she gives the note.

[45:26] Erin Cholakian: What are the mountains to you? Like, if I were performing it, I think the mountains are an orgasm.

[45:33] Jesse McAnally: The very last line is, I miss my life. I'll bet you she gets up and walks and lights go out, and it's a brand new scene. And now she's crazy, right? Or you see her taking the pills and flushing them down the toilet.

[45:49] Erin Cholakian: That is actually exactly what happened.

[45:50] Jesse McAnally: And flinging plates.

[45:51] Erin Cholakian: She flushes them down the toilet.

[45:53] Jesse McAnally: And in this particular song, I would imagine the mountains are an orgasm.

[45:59] Erin Cholakian: Like, the woman has a reaction that is so comical.

[46:07] Jesse McAnally: That woman is so insane. I've definitely been in an acting class where that kind of conversation has had, for sure. I actually haven't seen that video, but now I have to go watch it, because that's just, that's out of this world. That's insane.

[46:22] Erin Cholakian: I feel like it's pretty clear in the song.

[46:24] Jesse McAnally: The mountains to me are an orgasm.

[46:26] Erin Cholakian: Please.

[46:28] Jesse McAnally: I miss having an orgasm.

[46:29] Erin Cholakian: Please.

[46:30] Jesse McAnally: Like, when's the last time she's come?

[46:31] Erin Cholakian: I'm on so many medications.

[46:33] Jesse McAnally: No, Patti LuPone.

[46:35] Erin Cholakian: Too many SSRIs.

[46:37] Jesse McAnally: Do they not just say in the song directly what the mountains are? I thought that was the ending of the song.

[46:42] Erin Cholakian: I mean, I miss my life or something like that.

[46:46] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, she does say that. The song still doesn't do it for me. I still understand why it's done, and I would take KC singing it over anybody else any day, now that I've seen it. It still just doesn't stick with me.

[47:01] Erin Cholakian: I could listen to KC Levy sing it any day now, compared to the Alice Ripley of it all, but it still just doesn't, I don't feel anything listening to that song.

[47:13] Jesse McAnally: And I'm a big feeler, you know that.

[47:15] Erin Cholakian: So that's, yeah. It's weird that it hasn't hit me still.

[47:19] Jesse McAnally: Because I cried so many times watching the pro shot, but not during "I Miss the Mountains."

[47:24] Erin Cholakian: That's so funny that you say that, because Andrew was coming to me about his frustration with the show on this watch.

[47:31] Jesse McAnally: It didn't fix all of his problems.

[47:33] Erin Cholakian: And I actually kind of want you to go into that, because I found it interesting. He also felt nothing, in a way.

[47:42] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, Andrew, tell me.

[47:44] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, man. So it's just hard for me to describe why this one doesn't work for me. I've been trying to think it through. I watched this yesterday, and I've been trying to think it through in my head, and I can't really put it to words. But it feels like I'm watching someone who's, like a family who's very upset and sad, but I never get sad for them. It never makes me feel like that. And I feel like there's never a moment where I'm invited to feel the way they do. I'm just constantly told that they're all miserable.

[48:18] Erin Cholakian: That's such an interesting take. I think a big part of that is that they are crying almost the entire show. So if everybody on stage is crying, they give no room for you to cry. That's what I was taught in acting class. You should always act it as if you're holding back tears to allow for the people that are watching you to actually access their tears for you.

[48:41] Andrew DeWolf: That's an interesting point.

[48:43] Erin Cholakian: Yeah, and I think in this, we even see Gabe cry. Gabe cries, Natalie cries. The first song Natalie sings, Natalie has tears streaking down her face. We get to a moment when Dad is crying. We don't get—and even in the moments where they're supposed to be holding their emotions back, they're not really doing it. They're very—and it's because they're such fantastic actors that they can all access that.

[49:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I think they all did a great job. It's not that they're not portraying that they're sad or anything like that.

[49:11] Erin Cholakian: Exactly, but it's almost that they're doing it too well.

[49:13] Andrew DeWolf: I don't feel like I'm sad.

[49:15] Erin Cholakian: Yeah, because they're doing it too well.

[49:17] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I know you're sad. I get it. The whole family's miserable, but I'm over here.

[49:21] Erin Cholakian: Yeah, let me feel it.

[49:23] Andrew DeWolf: I'm just like, okay.

[49:25] Erin Cholakian: Even Henry does that.

[49:27] Andrew DeWolf: Henry is very emotional, the whole show. And the original Henry is a little bit—I feel like he could solve it. He could maybe solve it by being the one character who's the audience surrogate in a way. He's invited in, but I feel like we don't do a lot with that.

[49:44] Erin Cholakian: That or the psychotherapist, but the psychotherapist is almost portrayed just like an outsider who's—

[49:52] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and he's more character. Because each time he's on, he's doing something a little bit out of body. He's naming off all of the pills and putting them in the exact spot, and then he's a scary rock star later on.

[50:05] Erin Cholakian: Yeah, so it's like, you don't really have anybody who's outside of just—these people are all affected by this horrible trauma, and I'm just watching. It feels like I'm watching—I use the word tragedy porn, which I don't know if that's a common term, but that's what it feels like.

[50:24] Jesse McAnally: No, it is. I know it. Totally.

[50:26] Erin Cholakian: It's funny that you say that, too, because I was talking to my roommate about how it's actually shocking that this musical has stayed so popular for so long, because it really was a sign of the times, because it just kind of felt like a musical where they were like, hey, people are getting on drugs now for their brain. Isn't that crazy? Let's talk about it. And now it's like, oh, no, people are actually on drugs to help their brain, but it's a good thing. But then the electricity isn't a good thing. But then how long can you grieve a child, and shouldn't you grieve a child forever? It's so interesting how it has kind of made a 180 from where, yeah, the show is just so—it's an enigma to me. It's like, how are we still so obsessed with it? And at the exact same time, I do get it. So, yeah, I don't know.

[51:13] Jesse McAnally: I think it's changed. I think the fan base of the show has kind of changed from, frankly, teenagers that think Errant of Eight is hot to—

[51:20] Erin Cholakian: And they were not wrong, mind you.

[51:24] Jesse McAnally: No, but—

[51:26] Erin Cholakian: But not really the right reason to like the show.

[51:29] Jesse McAnally: They were never wrong.

[51:30] Erin Cholakian: —to grown adults who are actually contemplating with the content of the show that they had this hyperfixation with when they were younger, and praying or trying to find a way to reinterpret it in a way that makes sense to the way that they deal with their medications and the world that they're in today. And I think that is, like, one of the few great things about theater, that one day we can have a musical about fucking ridiculous cats roaming around on stage, and now we have the Jellicle Ball, because people reinterpreted it into something that matched the culture.

[52:05] Jesse McAnally: That actually works, yeah.

[52:07] Erin Cholakian: And I—as far as performance, I do kind of want to get back to that. I think that one of the things I really liked about Brian Darcy James when he played the role of Dan on both Off-Broadway and on Broadway is he never broke down until that moment with Gabe at the end. That was the moment where everything came out. And up to that point, he held everything together.

[52:29] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, he's supposed to be this strong force that is the pillar of the family. And I don't feel that way in this at all.

[52:38] Erin Cholakian: Yeah. Yeah, I would love to talk about, whenever we get there, the moment where—I just want to talk more about Gabe.

[52:46] Jesse McAnally: I mean, let's jump to "I'm Alive," which is Gabe's big number.

[52:51] ♪ Musical number: "I'm Alive" — performed by Jack Wolfe ♪

[54:49] Erin Cholakian: Oh my god, this man, it's Jack Wolfe, right? That's his name?

[54:50] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[54:51] Erin Cholakian: Jack Wolfe, what a freaking genius. What I love about the staging and the choices here is that Jack Wolfe sings into a mic, which I think is really cool because I read that as all of this is a performance. The ghost of Gabe, the experience of Gabe in the family is a performance of sorts. And not only Gabe is the performance, but the Gabe in mom's head is even a performance that is being put on. And I love the moment when he walks down with the mic up to the dad. And I wrote this down because I thought it was so insane. He is singing into the mic and then he holds the mic up to his dad when his dad says, this is to help your mother. And that really mirrored to me that same performance thought of like, he's not thinking about helping mom.

He's thinking about helping himself. He doesn't want to handle these feelings. He doesn't want to look into his past. He doesn't want to acknowledge the hurt that he has felt for the past 18 years. So he's doing all of this to fix her and taking none of the blame within himself. So that flip of the mic is so stark to me. Also, what I think is so brilliant, Aaron Tveit's Gabe kind of had like a, like a mysterious voice to him. He like every time he sang was like, I am the one here. Right. And he's like, I'm alive. He's like, I'm alive. I'm alive. And there's just this air of like, I'm sneaky and cunning and all this stuff. He's dancing on a pole like during that song Aaron Tveit. Yes. Jack Wolf's voice is clear.

It is so pinpointed. It's so pingy. He feels almost the most present in the room whenever he's singing compared to everybody else's voices, which adds to that dichotomy of is he here or is he not? And I thought that was brilliant. Like the first time he sang, I was like, oh, my God, I would not know that you were dead. And the way Aaron Tveit kind of played it was always this like ghost-like figure. So I thought that was such a cool shift. And I thought it was so strikingly done by Mr. Jack.

[56:12] Jesse McAnally: And he has nuance. Like that's the biggest.

[56:14] Erin Cholakian: So much.

[56:15] Jesse McAnally: No nuance Tveit is what I should say. But I think we should, as he is leaving, entering Twink Death, we should really start actually taking a look at his performances and discovering what little he's bringing to them.

[56:32] Erin Cholakian: Yeah, I think that needs to happen. It's funny because Jack does such a good job of wanting. He wants to be in the fray. He wants to be accepted by his family. He wants to still be alive. And "I'm Alive" isn't even just like I'm taunting you. I still exist. That kind of thing. It really feels like he's not only trying to convince them. He's trying to convince himself.

[56:58] Jesse McAnally: I agree. I do want to I know we're coming up on bumping up on time with us here. But no, I want to talk about "Superboy and the Invisible Girl," because I know you said that song was really important to you.

[57:17] ♪ Musical number: "Superboy and the Invisible Girl" ♪

[58:59] Erin Cholakian: I really it's.

[59:00] Jesse McAnally: Excellent. Yeah, that's a it's a great stage. Also, really quickly stage choice that I'm obsessed with. When she walks up stairs to get the box of Gabe's baby clothes and stuff, he walks up with her and then she walks down without him. And he's like stuck in that room. Oh my god, I just wanted to Oh, it's such it's so smart. It's so smart. I I'm so sorry. I had a thought and now it's bothering me. And now I ruined it.

[59:30] Andrew DeWolf: No, you didn't ruin it at all.

[59:33] Jesse McAnally: Dig deep in there, Jess.

[59:34] Andrew DeWolf: And no, it's just fog.

[59:37] Jesse McAnally: Shut up. I have one more thought that might hopefully jog your thought.

[59:41] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, I know what my thought is.

[59:43] Jesse McAnally: Oh, there it is. He got it. He got it.

[59:44] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, I know. We say that these actors are having the big emotions and they're mostly English actors, except for Casey Levy. And is this what they think Americans are like where America's British people, like as far as culturally are famously repressed and believe in subtle emotions. And here they all are very much having American accents and putting on an American performance. Is this a caricature of what they believe Americans and how they feel? And do they believe that we cannot perform in that reserved way or think it would ring false? We weren't having every emotion at once.

[1:00:28] Jesse McAnally: Okay, see, that's a really interesting question. Where are the cowboy hats?

[1:00:34] Erin Cholakian: Jesse, come on. That's so interesting, too, though, because I think that if that is part of their thought process, it's then even more dramatized because of the source material. Even if they were trying to put on the American affectation of, we are a very emotional people and a little bit loud about our problems, it still would have been pushed even further because of what the show actually has in it. But I wouldn't doubt that there's a piece of that to it, that they're like, and this is how Americans act.

[1:01:11] Andrew DeWolf: They cry about everything.

[1:01:13] Erin Cholakian: Yeah, they're walking around the house with-

[1:01:15] Jesse McAnally: Whiners.

[1:01:16] Erin Cholakian: Well, it's also one of those things where it's like, I always think this, and I'm sure a lot of people do, but how much of this is directorial choice, and how much of this is actor's choice? How much of this is the director saying, go there, or the actor already being there, and the director going, all right, that's where they want to go? You'll never know unless you write a book about it.

[1:01:35] Jesse McAnally: I hate to bring this back, but for Domino, there's a great monologue that Miranda Moffat gives halfway through the movie. Beautiful Miranda Moffat. Gorgeous, stunning. And she did one take where she fully let it all go, tears going down her face, and she did great. And in the moment, you're like, that's the one we take. And then when you watch it with that, and you go back to the more reserved one, and you can just see it behind the eyes, it is so much more effective than having her break down.

[1:02:10] Andrew DeWolf: I've always said this.

[1:02:12] Jesse McAnally: I just want to say, you were completely right. It is more emotional to see someone holding back and withdrawing. And I guess that explains Andrew's numbness. Do we want to talk about any songs in Act 2?

[1:02:28] Andrew DeWolf: Like, the one that always, like, really is the one that I will always stick with, and even in this one, it still gets me as how could I ever forget? Like, that is a song that paints a picture.

[1:02:40] Erin Cholakian: Oh god, yeah.

[1:02:44] ♪ Musical number: "How Could I Ever Forget" — performed by Erin Cholakian ♪

[1:05:50] Jesse McAnally: Now that we've got this, I would like to say one thing about Act 2. Well, first of all, It's Gonna Be Good is such a fun number. But there's also so much to do in the number. And I think that the staging is so perfectly done. And it's such a limited stage but at the same time it's not. And they do such a good job of really filling the space and driving that song. But one thing that I love is at the end when dad finally says Gabe and you see on Gabe's face how excited he is to see his dad again, kind of. And then Natalie walks in the room and goes, Where's mom? Dad says mom's gone. And Natalie says, okay, so it's just you and me now. And then Gabe knows what's coming. So he just immediately breaks down and cries.

He doesn't even wait for dad to say, No, Gabe's also here. Because he's like, this is a lost cause. Even though I just got you back, you're gonna choose her slash this every chance that you get. And then when he walks up to Natalie and touches her for the first time and then she doesn't see him see him, they don't lock eyes, he turns his direction and then kind of gets a chill. Genius! Genius! And great stuff you could really only see in a pro shot like this.

[1:07:10] Erin Cholakian: Yes! Oh, same thing when mom picks up the chair and they're on stage with the camera. That's a really stark change that, again, we wouldn't get if not for a pro shot. I'm very grateful they recorded this. Part of me still has like a, yeah, but it couldn't have been better. And everything can.

[1:07:32] Andrew DeWolf: But this, yeah, I totally get you. I've yet to see the Hadestown pro shot. People are saying it's the second coming of Christ. Maybe it is. We'll talk about it eventually.

[1:07:40] Erin Cholakian: I haven't seen it either.

[1:07:44] Andrew DeWolf: It made a ridiculous amount of money for a pro shot. I think it beat Hamilton.

[1:07:48] Erin Cholakian: What? I know.

[1:07:50] Andrew DeWolf: That's crazy.

[1:07:52] Erin Cholakian: I am equally surprised. Well, I guess when Hamilton came out, people didn't understand what a pro shot was. So maybe it's more that than anything.

[1:08:00] Andrew DeWolf: And also, it was already available on Disney+.

[1:08:02] Erin Cholakian: Oh, right.

[1:08:04] Andrew DeWolf: So why go out of your house? Aside from, I want to scream in the theater and ruin everyone's day.

[1:08:10] Erin Cholakian: Oh God. I'm going to be the third Hamilton, or fourth Skyler's sister. Let's go!

[1:08:16] Andrew DeWolf: I'm going to be the third Hamilton.

[1:08:18] Erin Cholakian: There are three Hamiltons in the show.

[1:08:20] Andrew DeWolf: That would be crazy.

[1:08:22] Erin Cholakian: There's Philip Hamilton, Alexander Hamilton, and Eliza Hamilton.

[1:08:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:08:28] Jesse McAnally: So then who would you be? On that note, what is our overall thoughts on Next to Normal and our cheese ratings? Andrew, why don't you get us started?

[1:08:34] Andrew DeWolf: I definitely think the pro shot version I enjoyed more. Though, I didn't go back and re-watch the older one, but I think talking about it, I'm kind of remembering it wasn't a very... I wasn't super positive on that one, I don't think. I think the songs generally are quite good. I really like the performances. Though, like I said, I was a little numb to it, but I still think overall it was a good watch. I'm going to give it a ham and cheese sandwich that I made on the floor. Sorry.

[1:09:20] Erin Cholakian: Oh my god. I think that the performances are a transcend. They do a really phenomenal job. I could never discredit these actors for the work that they put into this. That is evident and evidently hard. I think that the staging is striking for what they could have done poorly and didn't. They did things very well. I still think that the source material has its issues. It's not a musical that I would want to just throw back on right after watching it, which I have experienced before with other musicals. I will give it your dog's medication that you put in a block of cheese so that your dog can eat it.

[1:10:14] Andrew DeWolf: I am shocked we've never given that cheese before. Really?

[1:10:18] Erin Cholakian: That is a first timer, unless our Keeper of the Cheese wants to correct us.

[1:10:24] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, Keeper of the Cheese, tell us.

[1:10:26] Juliet Antonio: I'm a big fan of this pro shot. I'm glad it exists. I still have a lot of nostalgia for that original production, despite it being not great. I really love the performances from Cassie Levy and Jack Wolf. I feel like star-making on both accounts. Both of them are going to be around for a long while and well-deserved, and it's going to be because of this. I'm grateful for that. I am giving this the same cheese rating I gave Next to Normal, which is Lady Jane cheese.

[1:11:00] Andrew DeWolf: What is that?

[1:11:02] Juliet Antonio: It's cheese that can be used to make cheesecake.

[1:11:06] Jesse McAnally: Proper cheese that can be used to make cheesecake.

[1:11:10] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, I dig it. Erin, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a long time coming and it won't be the last time. You'll be back.

[1:11:20] Erin Cholakian: No, I'll be back. Please promote your content and where people can find you and your stand-up and your other work and your thousands of multi-hyphenates.

[1:11:30] Erin Cholakian: Yeah, you guys can find me on all social platforms at erin underscore c-h-o-l-a-k-i-a-n. That's the same handle on all socials, but also I'm the only Erin Cholakian in the world. So if you just type in Erin C-H-O-L and forget the rest, I'll come up. You guys keep watching Game Changer on Dropout. There are four more episodes to come. I hope to see you. I have a show in New York on August 14th, a show in Seattle on September 19th, and a show in Portland September 20th. Those are my solo headlining, and then the Key to Rivalry comedy show is on tour until September 3rd. Check us out!

[1:12:16] Andrew DeWolf: When are you coming to Detroit?

[1:12:18] Erin Cholakian: Oh my gosh, the way we wanted Michigan to work so bad. We had so many people drive down from Michigan to Chicago to see our show. It was crazy, but next year for sure.

[1:12:28] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, you better. I'm going to buy you drinks and dinner and we'll have a great time.

[1:12:32] Erin Cholakian: Yeah! Long time coming. Yeah, been a minute. Thank you for joining us, and until next time, this has been Musicals with Cheese. Goodbye, everyone.

[1:12:44] Andrew DeWolf: Bye, guys!

[1:12:56] Jesse McAnally: The Musicals with Cheese podcast is hosted by Jesse McAnally and Andrew DeWolf. Our executive producer is Jesse McAnally, and our creative producer is Elizabeth Esten. This show is mixed and edited by Jesse McAnally. Our theme song was composed by Andrew DeWolf, and the artwork was designed by JRL Studios. Our keeper of the cheese is the one and only Juliet Antonio. If you have the funds available, we would love to have you over at Patreon, where you can get tons of fun perks, including full bonus episodes. Also, if you don't mind, could you leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or a comment on Spotify? Just a few extra words to let us know how we're doing. And if you have any corrections, ideas, or just want to say hello, send us an email at musicaltheaterlives@gmail.com. To listen to our entire backlog of episodes, please visit bpn.fm/cheese. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next week.