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[0:00] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's theatre podcast, bringing you backstage and behind the scenes with the stars and creators of the hottest shows on Broadway, off-Broadway and beyond. I'm your host, Gordon Cox.

[0:20] Gordon Cox: On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to Jonathan Groff. Theatre fans and Hamilton heads will know him from his Tony-nominated Broadway work in Spring Awakening as Melchior and in Hamilton as the scene-stealing King George. On screen, he's appeared in shows like Glee and Looking, and in movies, he's probably best known for playing Kristoff in Disney's animated smash Frozen. He's back as Kristoff in the highly-anticipated Frozen 2 in cinemas November 22, not too long after his small-screen return in the second season of Mindhunter, the Netflix series in which he stars. On top of all that, he's back on stage too, starring as Seymour in the new, intimate off-Broadway revival of Little Shop of Horrors. Groff's here in the studio with me to tell us about all of that and more.

[1:17] Gordon Cox: We're delighted to have you back. To this day, it is one of the most popular episodes we have ever released.

[1:22] Jonathan Groff: No way.

[1:23] Gordon Cox: Yeah, so welcome back.

[1:25] Jonathan Groff: Score.

[1:26] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[1:27] Jonathan Groff: That's amazing. I'm happy to be back.

[1:28] Gordon Cox: We were just talking about the fact that a couple of weeks ago, you opened Little Shop of Horrors.

[1:33] Jonathan Groff: Yes.

[1:35] Gordon Cox: You've sort of settled into the run.

[1:36] Jonathan Groff: Yes.

[1:37] Gordon Cox: How's it going? Are you having a good time?

[1:39] Jonathan Groff: It might be the most fun I've ever had. It's kind of a perfect show, perfectly written, and it's like a joyride every night. I get so excited to do the show. This sounds kind of cheesy, but even on Sunday afternoons, when we do our final show of the week, I feel a little depressed as I'm leaving the dressing room. I know, I know.

[2:02] Gordon Cox: Has that ever happened before?

[2:03] Jonathan Groff: I feel like Marian Seldes or something, because she's got the famous story of like, we get to do it twice today. Everyone's like, oh God. But really, and it's not just me. I don't know if everyone else feels depressed when the week is over, but I do feel like, okay, I just have to wait until Tuesday before I get to do it again.

[2:20] Gordon Cox: What particularly do you feel like you respond to in Seymour and in the part that you play?

[2:26] Jonathan Groff: It's just, you get to do everything. It's a show where you get to be dramatic and funny and you get to sing great songs and everybody in the show gets a standout moment. So the entire cast gets featured in really exciting and surprising and fun ways. And so I think everyone feels like we all have something to offer and it creates this kind of team mentality when you arrive. And then the audience, because the theater is so small, it's only—

[2:56] Gordon Cox: Teeny tiny.

[2:57] Jonathan Groff: Teeny tiny. We should, for people who haven't seen a show there or haven't seen this show yet, it's, what is it, 250 people?

[3:03] Jonathan Groff: 276.

[3:04] Gordon Cox: 276.

[3:05] Jonathan Groff: 276. And the stage is so small that when the plant grows, you're tripping over it.

[3:08] Gordon Cox: Yeah, exactly.

[3:09] Jonathan Groff: It's really like—

[3:10] Gordon Cox: Yeah, it feels like the audience is inside the shop with us. It's so small. And so because we're having so much fun doing it, the audience, a lot of people know the show or know some of the songs or it's sort of like the audience and the cast are there to both celebrate the show at the same time. And so it's a very unique, joyful energy. And I was talking to Michael Mayer, our director—

[3:36] Gordon Cox: The director who you worked with on Spring Awakening.

[3:37] Jonathan Groff: Yes, yes. And who is so incredible. And we just have had such a good time doing the show with him and he's just a phenomenal director. And I was saying to him during previews, I feel like it's been a very, this also sounds very cheesy, but a very kind of healing experience for everyone in the cast and for Michael. And when Michael pitched us all the show originally, he said, I want to do Little Shop off-Broadway. It's never moving to Broadway. We're doing it in a small theater. We're not doing this for the money. We're not doing this to make our careers. He said, I want to do this show for the reason that we all used to do shows, which was just to have a good time. I want it to feel like summer stock.

And I think that that has happened from day one for the cast. And I think for the audience, the response that we're getting is, I couldn't stop smiling. I can't remember the last time I had so much fun. It's a very, I think, healing, joyful experience for the audience as well.

[4:34] Gordon Cox: Right, right. You mentioned right before we turned on the mics that there's an ongoing saliva effort. Tell us about that. What does that mean?

[4:40] Jonathan Groff: Well, I have a natural, this is also a problem, question mark, with the size of the house, is that I spit a lot on stage. I've always been a spitter. I get wet when I act. It's just what happens. I start sweating. I get, Tammy, when we were in, it's the first time we've met.

[5:01] Gordon Cox: Yeah, this is Tammy Blanchard, your co-star.

[5:02] Jonathan Groff: Yes, who I'm deeply obsessed with.

[5:04] Gordon Cox: Sure.

[5:05] Jonathan Groff: She said, are you taking saliva pills? Because I guess Bernadette Peters, she said during Gypsy would take saliva pills to keep her throat lubricated.

[5:15] Jonathan Groff: I did not know that.

[5:16] Jonathan Groff: Yeah. And I was like, no, I'm not taking saliva pills. I just get wet when I perform on stage. It is just what happens. And so I break out into a sweat and then I get, I just, I spit a lot. And so about three weeks I got over it. But for the first couple of weeks of the run, I felt bad because I walked down to the end of the stage and in the opening number of the second song of the show, Skid Row, and I can't help it, I'm just like spitting on everyone. And they're either like enjoying it or they're laughing or they're holding up their programs to block their face. And you can really see from stage, it's as close as, I mean, we're about two feet away.

[6:01] Gordon Cox: Yeah. No, you're that close.

[6:02] Jonathan Groff: And that's how close we are. Yeah. So it felt like a problem at first and now I don't care anymore. I'm just like—

[6:09] Gordon Cox: That's the way to do it.

[6:10] Jonathan Groff: Yeah.

[6:11] Gordon Cox: How can you, yeah.

[6:12] Jonathan Groff: Yeah. It made me feel self-conscious at first. I was like, oh God. I'd never been so close to the audience where I was actually seeing the reaction on people's face while I spat on them. And now, this time I am.

[6:23] Gordon Cox: Right. And so it had been a few years since you'd been on stage. Were you hoping to get back? Was this a thing on your radar? Like, oh, I want to get back on stage sometime soon? And so why?

[6:35] Jonathan Groff: I mean, I just sort of always want to be on stage. When I moved to New York when I was 19, it was just to do theater and nothing else. It's my—

[6:42] Gordon Cox: That was First Spring Awakening, yeah?

[6:44] Jonathan Groff: Well, yeah. I did Spring Awakening when I was 20. 20, I think I got cast. Yeah. But when I moved to New York when I was 19, I just was a dream to have a career in the theater. I didn't anticipate something as amazing as Spring Awakening. I just wanted to be a theater actor. So yeah, I love being on stage. I never not want to be on stage. It just feels like a part of who I am.

[7:09] Gordon Cox: And are you enjoying acting with a puppet? Because sometimes you are also playing a puppet.

[7:16] Jonathan Groff: Yeah, right. Right. I would say the puppet that I operate used to be my least favorite part of the show because it's like tapping your head and rubbing your belly at the same time. It's just one of those technical things that it was the most challenging part of the rehearsal process was learning how to act and dance and sing and operate the puppet at the same time. Now it's one of my favorite parts of the show because I've gotten a handle on it and I've learned that I can scare the audience in the front row by snapping at them. And so that's been really fun. That's entertaining.

[7:51] Jonathan Groff: So that's been really fun. And then one of my favorite parts of the show has always been and continues to be acting with either Eric and or Teddy are puppeteers in the show that operate Audrey 2 and Kingsley, who is the voice of Audrey 2.

[8:09] Gordon Cox: Right. Yeah. Where is he? Is he like off stage with a mic?

[8:12] Jonathan Groff: He's all the way in the back behind in his own little booth behind where the stage manager is up house right.

[8:20] Gordon Cox: And does he... Oh, so he's watching.

[8:21] Jonathan Groff: So he has like, yeah, he's got like a monitor of the stage. He can sort of see the stage out of a window and he's got a monitor with the music director connecting. And it's so unique, the experience, because the puppeteers really have to be listening to Kingsley in order to match his vocal, which he changes a little bit night to night. And so they're in a hyper listening mode. I'm in a hyper listening watching mode, watching them listen to him to react to him in the booth. It's like I'm reacting to the plant reacting to Kingsley. And it's like this three way experience that I've never had before on stage. That's it's just it's you're hyper aware. You have to have your senses really open more than usual because you have to there's so many people at play trying to match each other.

[9:11] Gordon Cox: You talked about the challenges with the puppet initially. Is there anything else that has been unusually challenging about this show in this part for you?

[9:20] Jonathan Groff: I think the last time I did a big musical where I was on stage as much as this was maybe Spring Awakening and I was in my early 20s. So now I'm learning like the power of the foam roller and massage. Being 34, it's just a diff... And I'm not saying that 34 is particularly old, but it is over a decade older than when I did a musical before. And so I'm having to prepare to sustain the eight shows a week in a way that I didn't have to when I was in my early 20s. And that has been... It's almost like I'm in better health doing... Because you have to take such good care of yourself. So I'm in better health now than I ever have been because I'm stretching, I'm doing the foam roller because I want when I get on stage to do the show to just fly.

[10:10] Gordon Cox: You're taking hauls all the time?

[10:12] Jonathan Groff: Yes.

[10:13] Gordon Cox: You're popping hauls?

[10:13] Jonathan Groff: Yes. Tammy Blanchard got us all addicted to hauls.

[10:17] Gordon Cox: And do you have a flavor of choice or...

[10:19] Jonathan Groff: I really... It sort of changes all the time.

[10:22] Jonathan Groff: Right now, I'm kind of into the sugar-free cherry flavor.

[10:26] Gordon Cox: And this is during the show that you're...

[10:27] Jonathan Groff: During the show, I have... Although not in your mouth when performing.

[10:30] Jonathan Groff: Not in my mouth.

[10:31] Jonathan Groff: You learn the hard way.

[10:32] Jonathan Groff: Yes. Last night on stage, I was like, you know what? Maybe I'll just keep the hauls in my mouth during the opening number. And then it produced too much saliva. And then I was spittling all over myself in the... It was not only spit going out, but then drool going down. It was too much.

[10:51] Gordon Cox: Right.

[10:51] Jonathan Groff: It was too much. I can have the hauls off stage.

[10:53] Gordon Cox: That won't happen again.

[10:53] Jonathan Groff: No, no, no. That won't happen again.

[10:54] Gordon Cox: All right.

[10:55] Gordon Cox: The last time you were on the podcast, the first season of Mindhunter had just come out. And we talked a lot at the time about how hard it was for you to not smile as much as your natural tendency. And David Fincher was sort of a hard-ass about that kind of thing.

[11:12] Jonathan Groff: Yes.

[11:13] Gordon Cox: Did that get easier for season two?

[11:16] Jonathan Groff: It did. Yeah, it did get easier. The not smiling aspect definitely was easier for season two than it was in season one. I think because in season one, you're really... Everyone is trying to find the tone and the characters and everything on the show. And season two, it felt like, I think, for the writers and the directors and the actors and the crew, for all of us, we knew what the world of the show was. It doesn't mean that it was easy with David. He's always trying to take

[12:17] Jonathan Groff: You know, I think one of the things that I love about being in this show is that it really allows me to embrace my physicality in a way that I haven't in other roles.

[12:45] Jonathan Groff: I mean, I get to be this character who is just so over the top and so expressive, and it really feels like a playground for me.

[13:11] Jonathan Groff: And I think that the audience can feel that energy. They can feel that I'm having fun, and it makes the experience more enjoyable for them too.

[13:39] Jonathan Groff: Plus, there's something about the way that the character interacts with the plant that just brings out this wild side of me that I love exploring.

[14:07] Jonathan Groff: I mean, who doesn't want to be a little crazy on stage, right?

[14:33] Jonathan Groff: And the physicality of it all, the spitting, the running around, it just adds to the chaos and the fun of the show.

[15:01] Jonathan Groff: I think it really captures the essence of what "Little Shop of Horrors" is all about.

[15:29] Jonathan Groff: It's a show that doesn't take itself too seriously, and I think that's what makes it so special.

[15:57] Jonathan Groff: And honestly, I think the audience appreciates that too. They want to see something that feels alive and spontaneous.

[16:24] Jonathan Groff: And when you're in a role like this, you really get to let loose and just be free.

[16:52] Jonathan Groff: It's a liberating experience, and I think that's why I love it so much.

[17:20] Jonathan Groff: Plus, the music is just incredible.

[17:48] Jonathan Groff: I mean, every time I hear those songs, it just brings me back to why I fell in love with musical theater in the first place.

[18:14] Jonathan Groff: There's something so magical about it, and I feel so lucky to be a part of it.

[18:44] Jonathan Groff: And I think that energy translates to the audience.

[19:12] Jonathan Groff: They can feel that passion and that excitement, and it creates this amazing atmosphere in the theater.

[19:42] Jonathan Groff: I just hope that they leave feeling as exhilarated as I do after every performance.

[20:12] Jonathan Groff: That's really the goal for me, to create that connection with the audience.

[20:42] Jonathan Groff: And I think that when you embrace your character fully, that's when that connection happens.

[21:12] Jonathan Groff: It's all about being present and in the moment, and I think that's what makes live theater so special.

[21:42] Jonathan Groff: You never know what's going to happen, and that's part of the thrill.

[22:13] Jonathan Groff: And I think that spontaneity is what keeps both the actors and the audience engaged.

[22:39] Jonathan Groff: It's a beautiful dance between the two, and I love being a part of it.

[23:09] Jonathan Groff: So, yeah, I guess you could say I really embrace being a spitter on stage!

[23:36] Jonathan Groff: So, to me, a lot of ways, I'm not trying to downgrade the voice actor's contribution to animated film, but the animators are so amazing. And they really, in my mind, are the characters because of how they, just their brilliant artistry of what they do. And in this second movie, I sing this song called "Lost in the Woods." And when I saw it, I hit the floor because I could not believe what the... I recorded the song and then they took the song to attend. It was crazy what they did with it. So, I don't really feel an ownership of the character in the way... I do feel a sense of ownership of Holden because it's me on the screen. So, I can give credit to the directors and the writers and all the people that had all the ideas that I didn't have to help make Holden who he is, but it is my face on the screen. With Christophe, it's different. It's my voice, but I can really see so much work that all the animators did. So, in doing the show, I would be like, well, no, that's Jelani's part. Yeah.

[24:51] Gordon Cox: Do you ever miss being in Hamilton? And have you thought about popping in and doing... What's your stage time in that role? What is it? 15 minutes?

[25:01] Jonathan Groff: It's nine minutes. Yeah.

[25:03] Gordon Cox: Is it really nine?

[25:04] Jonathan Groff: It's a cute nine. It's a cute, clean nine minutes.

[25:08] Gordon Cox: Great.

[25:09] Jonathan Groff: And it was the most incredible nine minutes to have on stage because that role is so amazing. And, excuse me, I don't think about going back because to me, that experience was about that company because I spent so much time off stage that even more than playing the king, for me personally, I mean, playing the king was incredible, but the experience of the show was actually the communal experience with that group of people because I spent most of the time hanging out with Lynn in the Idina Menzel suite. And then people coming in at Oak would come into my dressing room, Pippa, Jasmine, they would all come into my dressing room at certain times and sit on my small, tiny little couch. And that to me is just as much what I remember about performing Hamilton than actually performing Hamilton. So it wouldn't be the same if I went back.

[26:09] Gordon Cox: Right. Are you someone who listens to cast recordings, Broadway cast recordings?

[26:13] Jonathan Groff: Yeah.

[26:14] Gordon Cox: And what are your, what's sort of the most frequent kind of return to this for you?

[26:22] Jonathan Groff: I would say my cast recording, my heavy cast recording listening phase was between the ages of 12 and 23. That's when I was really going through the cast recording moments. I would say, yeah, recently, I haven't listened to a lot of cast recordings recently. Although what is the, I'm trying to think, what is the most recent one that I've listened to? I've been listening to a lot of Barbara. So I guess the most, yeah, I guess the most recent cast recording that I listened to is the original cast recording of Funny Girl. Oh, all right. Yeah. That's sort of a random throwback, but yeah. And do you, are there any of those that you're listening to and thinking, oh, there's a part I want to play or... Fanny Bryce.

[27:10] Jonathan Groff: Yeah. Well, Fanny Bryce, obviously. No, I, it's funny. I'm not, I don't do, well, really the sort of weird thing about it all is that I always want to play girl parts. So I always want to be like Maria in The Sound of Music or Eliza Doolittle in My Fair Lady... I was just, oh, I was... Or Audrey in Little Shop.

[27:29] Jonathan Groff: Or Audrey. Little Shop is one where like, I would want to play Seymour and thankfully I am. But, but I, but like the, I was listening to the My Fair Lady recording a lot when that revival happened two years ago. So that was one that I was listening to a lot. And I just like, listening to her, I just am drawn to her songs more than I'm drawn to Henry Higgins.

[27:50] Gordon Cox: All right. Well, how can we make My Fair Lady starring Jonathan Groff happen? Like, that's a thing.

[27:54] Jonathan Groff: Nobody wants to see that. No, it sounds like a funny idea. It's sort of like, yeah, it's like, oh, that would be fun to hear a guy sing girl songs, but then like the actual reality of it is makes you want to kill yourself.

[28:06] Gordon Cox: Yeah. You can do it for that. Is it MCC that does the like miscast?

[28:10] Jonathan Groff: Oh, I've done those. Yes. Yes. I've already used up that opportunity. I've already scratched that itch. I can't go back again and keep doing it. You know? Yeah. But that's just, you know, that's just the innate trouble with being gay is you just want to play all the girl parts.

[28:27] Gordon Cox: I guess so.

[28:30] Jonathan Groff: So there's a ton of, you were talking about this with the difference between Mindhunter and all the stage work, like there's a lot of variety in the kind of stuff you do. Variety. Is there anything you haven't been able to do yet that you feel like you're really sort of desperate to?

[28:45] Jonathan Groff: Oh, gosh. This is like, there's a million people that I want to work with that I haven't worked with yet. Phoebe Waller-Bridge is the first one that comes to mind. Oh, God. Alexander Payne. I'd love to work with him. There's just a million. Soderbergh, I'd love to work with him. Wes Anderson, I'd love to work with. There's just like a million directors that I'm dying to work with. A bunch of actors that I love. It's more about that to me than, I'm not a dream role person. I never have been. And I'm really bad at inventing ideas of like, and now I want to do this. I have more of an instinctual, immediate feeling about reading something and going, I want to do that, or I don't want to do that.

[29:36] Gordon Cox: And how much is that based on the team involved and how much of it is based on your sort of response to the project itself?

[29:43] Jonathan Groff: I'll take advice with a grain of salt always from anyone. But ultimately I make my own decisions.

[29:51] Gordon Cox: Well, sorry, I guess I mean creative team involved. Like how much are your choices guided by the people as much as the, okay.

[30:06] Jonathan Groff: All the people. Yeah. Always the people. It doesn't have to be like, I'm only going to work with seasoned, but yeah, it's about the, what is the collaboration going to be like? What is the writing feel like to me? What is my instinct about it when I read it? Do I feel like I can bring something to it? Is it something that feels new and exciting to do all of those stuff? All of that stuff feels like that. It's hard to even really, it's hard to articulate because that to me, part of the fun of it is that it is a mystery. Like you can't, anything that I've predicted or said that I wanted, if I can think of what it is, then I kind of don't really want to do it. That just sounds kind of boring. If I can anticipate what it would be like, then it's already boring to do and boring to watch.

[30:58] Gordon Cox: Is there a job or a gig or a project that you have always considered sort of the one that got away for you or the thing that you wish you did?

[31:06] Jonathan Groff: The night is bitter, the star, that's the man that got away.

[31:17] Gordon Cox: No. Is that weird to say?

[31:18] Jonathan Groff: No, that's great. I don't have the one that got away. I don't know, nothing that's coming to my mind. No, I don't. Maybe I'm too like glass half full, but no, I don't have, I feel there's so many, now this is going to sound really cheesy, but there's so many talented people working. I honestly just feel so lucky for the opportunities that I've gotten. That's for real. Even when we were doing Mindhunter and we'd have all these incredible guest stars come in and just fucking kill it and prepared and can do anything and able to take direction. Many of them who I'd never seen their work before or met before. It was incredibly humbling because you're like, wow, I get to be here every day and have this great job. I'm just knocking on wood that I get to continue to keep doing what I'm doing.

[32:23] Gordon Cox: How long are you in Little Shop for?

[32:25] Jonathan Groff: Till January 19th, 2020.

[32:27] Gordon Cox: Is there any possibility of either you extending or the show extending?

[32:32] Jonathan Groff: I think the producer's dream is to keep the show going as long as possible. I don't know that to be true, but I think that would be their dream. I think Little Shop should run in New York at the West Side Theater forever because it's the perfect location for the show and it's such a beautifully crafted production. Michael did such a good job.

[32:55] Gordon Cox: And so if you're out January, sorry, 20th, is that what you said?

[32:59] Jonathan Groff: January 19th, 2020.

[33:00] Gordon Cox: 19th, 2020. What's next for you?

[33:04] Jonathan Groff: I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea.

[33:09] Gordon Cox: When you are not acting, what are you most likely to be doing?

[33:12] Jonathan Groff: These days, foam rolling.

[33:19] Jonathan Groff: Foam rolling in order to be able to act and sing the next day. Going to spin class.

[33:27] Gordon Cox: Okay.

[33:27] Jonathan Groff: Yep. I try to do spin class before the matinees to wake up my body.

[33:30] Gordon Cox: Wow.

[33:31] Jonathan Groff: I get really sweaty at the matinees because once I start sweating, I can't stop.

[33:34] Gordon Cox: Well, then it's all over. Yeah. That's a long day. You've got some spin class, you've got a little, you've got some acting.

[33:39] Jonathan Groff: You would see me on my bike. I bike everywhere in New York. So if I'm not at the theater, I'm definitely on my bike.

[33:43] Gordon Cox: I might be at the theater.

[33:49] Jonathan Groff: Sure.

[33:50] Jonathan Groff: I love to see plays. Where else would you find me?

[33:55] Gordon Cox: I don't know. If you had a, like, I'm a cook or I am a...

[34:00] Jonathan Groff: I'm still the opposite of a cook. Yeah.

[34:03] Jonathan Groff: Whatever the opposite of a cook is, that's what I am.

[34:05] Gordon Cox: I don't know. An eater, I guess.

[34:07] Jonathan Groff: That's a...

[34:09] Jonathan Groff: Totally. Yeah.

[34:11] Gordon Cox: Um, I think those are all my questions for you.

[34:14] Jonathan Groff: That was so fun and easy. You're a pleasure to talk to.

[34:17] Gordon Cox: Well, as are you always. So when you're on again for the, for the third time, with whatever it is, I will, in my fair graph, I think is what you're going to be in.

[34:25] Jonathan Groff: God, no.

[34:26] Jonathan Groff: Oh my God, no. I won't let it happen.

[34:28] Gordon Cox: All right. Well, so not that, but whatever the next time is, we'll see you then.

[34:32] Jonathan Groff: Okay, great. I look forward to it.

[34:33] Gordon Cox: Thanks Jonathan.

[34:34] Jonathan Groff: Thank you.

[34:42] Gordon Cox: That was Jonathan Groff, now starring on stage in Little Shop of Horrors and on screen in Frozen 2. If you like what you're hearing on this and other episodes of Stagecraft, please take a moment to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, or whatever is your podcatcher of choice, or tell a fellow theater fan about us. Next week, I'm talking to Claire Warden, the Broadway Intimacy Director, who's leading the push to revolutionize the way we talk about, rehearse, and enact sensitive content on stage. Until then, see you at the theater.