This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Quincy Brown: I love to be worried for Elphaba's. Like, I really love to be worried for Elphaba's. It's so exciting. Not worried, but like... On the edge of my seat. On the edge of your seat. Excited. Like, you feel like it's like, ah, that was just, like, exhilarating.

[0:18] Quincy Brown: My name's Quincy.

[0:20] Kevin Bianchi: My name's Kevin.

[0:22] Quincy Brown: And this is Sentimental Men. But keep your thumb away from that skip button. We're here to talk. And maybe scream. About our favorite women in musical theater.

[0:33] Kevin Bianchi: Good morning, Kevin.

[0:35] Quincy Brown: Good afternoon, Quincy. I will say, this is definitely highlighting the time difference between you and I. For those of you who don't know, I am in New York City. Quincy is in Hawaii.

[0:48] Kevin Bianchi: Well, Quincy, how are you? Despite the fact that it is morning.

[0:51] Quincy Brown: I'm good. Have you watched The Boys in the Band yet on Netflix?

[0:55] Kevin Bianchi: I have not watched it yet because I need to be in a headspace.

[1:00] Quincy Brown: I mean, when I saw that on... Did you see it on Broadway?

[1:04] Kevin Bianchi: No. So, this was literally my first introduction to it.

[1:06] Quincy Brown: Okay. When I saw it on Broadway, I wept about two-thirds of the show and didn't stop crying until I was, like, in my apartment. And I live all the way to fuck-up towns. That was, like, an additional 45 minutes of just, like, crying.

[1:21] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah. I, like, really didn't know what to expect because I knew the historic gay play and everything. And I knew that it made a splash when it was on Broadway. I never got around to seeing it. I don't know why. But I was excited to watch the movie because I knew it was such a moment.

[1:34] Quincy Brown: And it truly, Kevin, it was... First of all, it's so good.

[1:41] Kevin Bianchi: It's so good.

[1:42] Quincy Brown: I feel like I kind of need someone to sit me down and, like, talk me through it because there's a lot, I think, that could be unpacked that I just haven't really fully done yet. But highly recommend. By the time you're listening to this, if you haven't watched it yet, you are severely behind the curve.

[1:57] Kevin Bianchi: Oh, my God, Quincy, this episode is going to be the first episode after the election. Dear future me, I hope you're okay.

[2:04] Quincy Brown: We'll be okay, hopefully.

[2:05] Kevin Bianchi: We'll be okay. But yeah, so today, guys, I am personally very, very excited for this guest.

[2:10] Quincy Brown: Me, too.

[2:11] Kevin Bianchi: This is one of my favorite Elphaba's favorite performers.

[2:16] Quincy Brown: So the guest today is Caroline Bowman.

[2:20] Kevin Bianchi: Woo! Caroline Bowman!

[2:23] Quincy Brown: Who has not only played Elphaba on Broadway, but was in the original Broadway cast of Kinky Boots, toured as Eva Peron in Evita, also has toured the country as Elsa in Frozen, the musical.

[2:40] Kevin Bianchi: And Spamalot, right?

[2:41] Quincy Brown: Spamalot. I think Spamalot was pre-everything.

[2:43] Kevin Bianchi: Spamalot was pre-everything.

[2:44] Quincy Brown: Was she the Lady of the Lake?

[2:46] Kevin Bianchi: Lady of the Lake in Spamalot.

[2:48] Quincy Brown: I mean, talk about... Talk about cords of steel.

[2:50] Kevin Bianchi: Cords of steel, baby.

[2:53] Quincy Brown: So yeah, we have Caroline Bowman coming in in a few minutes. I can't wait.

[2:56] Kevin Bianchi: Quincy, I'm very excited personally for you for this one, because as soon as we started talking about this podcast, like the first name out of your mouth was Caroline Bowman. So I'm very excited for you.

[3:10] Quincy Brown: I think it's going to be a lot of fun. But Kevin, before we get into Ms. Bowman, let's get into Ms. Block.

[3:17] Kevin Bianchi: What a smooth transition, Quincy.

[3:22] Quincy Brown: Okay, so I don't know if this is cheating, because I found and sent this stuck on SJB to you this very morning. So there is this Instagram account, which if you don't know it, I go give it a follow. It is called Rare Musical Moments, and it is essentially just an account that posts one minute clips of some rare, some just like forgotten. But today, this morning, they posted one minute of Stephanie J. Block singing You Don't Know This Man from Parade.

[3:57] Kevin Bianchi: And let me tell you, I love Carolee Carmelo. And I think like, Quincy, you understand when I say Carolee Carmelo is like my exact breed of Broadway diva. So that song has high expectations for me.

[4:13] Quincy Brown: And Stephanie J. Block does not disappoint, because we get to hear her soprano, which is a lovely soprano. We get to hear her belt, which is a lovely belt. But most importantly, that song sits at her break. So the ease with which she is like dipping below her break and then floating back up above it. That was the most impressive thing to me.

[4:35] Kevin Bianchi: It's very vocally impressive. And that song, if I can get a little musical theater technique see for a minute, goes back and forth between being in major and minor, like essentially every two measures.

[4:46] Quincy Brown: Oh, look at you.

[4:47] Kevin Bianchi: To hear her navigating her break along with the change from major to minor is exquisite. And there was such a gravitas to the performance. That was the first thing I watched when I woke up this morning, by the way. I looked at my phone and I checked that DM.

[5:03] Quincy Brown: I'm glad.

[5:04] Kevin Bianchi: What shook me is how expertly she navigated, because it's not an easy thing for her, but she navigates it expertly. And that I think is extremely impressive.

[5:16] Quincy Brown: A hundred percent. I also love the choice, which like maybe it's a choice out of necessity. Maybe it's a choice out of frivolity. I don't know. But the lyric, he is a decent man. He is an honest man. She just like yells the word honest, like there's not a note value attached to it. And then straight back into the belt.

[5:35] Kevin Bianchi: There's not a note value attached to it, but there is definitely an emotional value attached to it.

[5:42] Quincy Brown: So that's my stock on SJB. It came into my life at the perfect time today. And I'm happy we could plug that account because I think that's a really fun and interesting. And they have a good Wicked clip once in a while, too.

[5:54] Kevin Bianchi: So they do. Yeah, it is topical for this.

[5:57] Quincy Brown: It's educational. And I think in this time of no theater, bootlegs are OK.

[6:02] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah. Listen, I know I hate that.

[6:06] Quincy Brown: First of all, this is a divisive topic to talk about.

[6:09] Kevin Bianchi: I do, too.

[6:09] Quincy Brown: I understand people who are like bootlegs take money away from the show.

[6:14] Kevin Bianchi: Sure.

[6:14] Quincy Brown: Anybody who is resorting to bootlegs wasn't buying a ticket to the show anyway.

[6:19] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah, I agree.

[6:20] Quincy Brown: Fucking 16 year old in their parents basement is not like trying to close Frozen.

[6:24] Kevin Bianchi: Exactly.

[6:24] Quincy Brown: I actually think it's like the opposite. I even before I saw Wicked for the first time when it finally came to Hawaii on tour, I'd already memorized the show. And I saw it on tour six times because I was so obsessed with all the bootlegs and because I had known the show so well.

[6:37] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah.

[6:37] Quincy Brown: So I don't know. It's a tricky thing to discuss. But I think there is a fine line between being protective of your work and being like pious about the fact that some people can't afford to come see you work.

[6:52] Kevin Bianchi: What I do think will be interesting is Diana getting filmed for Netflix because maybe it'll tap into an audience. Then I think that'll be interesting and people will be more willing to maybe film their shit and put it out there.

[7:03] Quincy Brown: I'll be interested to compare the Hamilton Disney Plus recording with this Diana recording.

[7:10] Kevin Bianchi: I'm very excited for Diana. Someone described it to me as a cross between Ghost and Evita. And that is my exact niche.

[7:16] Quincy Brown: I mean, listen, I am the exact target for that show in a different way because you could literally tell me that a member of the royal family was going to read the phone book and I would like log in to watch it.

[7:26] Kevin Bianchi: That's interesting.

[7:27] Quincy Brown: It's like very white of me. But I just like I love the royal family so much because they fascinate me.

[7:34] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah. Well, no, my mom is like that, too. She's obsessed. She knows all the tea. She would watch all the weddings and stuff.

[7:39] Quincy Brown: I'm going to hang out with your mom.

[7:41] Kevin Bianchi: Like, I truly it never was a thing. And but then I've had friends who are like, no, the royal family is a big deal. So we'll see. I'm very excited. And I love former Glinda, Gina DeWall.

[7:51] Quincy Brown: Yeah, it's a good cast.

[7:52] Kevin Bianchi: I'm obsessed with the guy playing.

[7:54] Quincy Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That guy.

[7:59] Quincy Brown: Caroline Bowman, welcome to Sentimental Men. We are so excited that you're here.

[8:04] Caroline Bowman: Thank you for having me.

[8:06] Quincy Brown: Okay, I know how I want to start this. Evita, Elphaba, and Elsa.

[8:12] Caroline Bowman: Oh, my.

[8:14] Quincy Brown: It's Elsa Vida-ba.

[8:15] Caroline Bowman: Elsa Vida-ba.

[8:16] Quincy Brown: The three power E's. Of the three, which would you say is the most vocally difficult?

[8:22] Caroline Bowman: Oh, my gosh, Elphaba.

[8:23] Quincy Brown: Really?

[8:24] Caroline Bowman: Hands down.

[8:25] Quincy Brown: Even more than Evita.

[8:26] Caroline Bowman: Yes, honey, because Evita is two hours in and out. 50 minute act one, 50 minute act two. You're done. You're at the bar by 9:30. Of course, I never went to the bar because I was on vocal rest all the time.

[8:39] Quincy Brown: That is the clincher right there. It's like it's so much shorter. With Elphaba, it's nonstop for almost three hours. And you get no alone time being Elphaba. People are on top of you at all times fixing your makeup. You're never alone to breathe except maybe for five minutes before you enter. But then intermission, they're all in there doing your contour because you're becoming act two fierce Elphaba.

[9:05] Kevin Bianchi: Is there something to be said too? Evita kind of feels like you're constantly singing once you go. And Elphaba feels like you stop and then another big number. And then you have downtime and then another big number.

[9:15] Caroline Bowman: Yeah, it's kind of like you never lose your momentum, I guess, with Evita as a whole to look at it. Also, it is a big thing, but I found a lot of different colors to play with Evita. And there's a lot of scenes where you're speak singing. It's just different. They're just totally different roles. Notoriously, Evita is known for doing six a week, which I have no idea why Elphaba ever does eight. I have no idea. And I'm not afraid to say it now. I feel like, no, no, Elphaba should be doing six a week. No person should be asked to do that eight times a week. Some people can and props to them. But I know. If Christine dies getting an alternate, I think Elphaba should have an alternate.

[9:57] Quincy Brown: One hundred percent. Like there's just no and she's got a standby. And like, yes, normally the standby goes on at least once a week, if not twice a week. But like it should just the pressure of not having those extra two was like everything. And so I think because I only knew I had to do my six shows, I barely called out. I did my six. But by the sixth show for Evita, I was done. Like I couldn't do a seventh or an eighth. Like I what do they call it? Like I blew my wad.

[10:26] Quincy Brown: OK, so I want to go back to talk about when Wicked first entered your life as a person. I kind of feel like I've been on this journey with you because I remember seeing that YouTube video that I think your mother posted when you got the call that you booked Broadway understudy. And that's when when you YouTube Caroline Bowman, that's when it was still like a baseball player or something. Like you weren't even coming up yet, you know. And so it's just been really cool to see you grow in your career.

[10:50] Caroline Bowman: Oh, thank you.

[10:51] Quincy Brown: So that is an incredible video, but I'll go. We'll get to that.

[10:54] Caroline Bowman: Yeah.

[10:56] Quincy Brown: So Wicked entered my life when it entered all of our lives in 2003. And I got the I remember getting the Wicked album for Christmas, the CD, the actual. And I would always get my Broadway albums and like open them up. And I would look through all the pictures in the in the little like picture book. And so I remember on that specific Christmas, I have like the image of me laying on the floor of my living room, listening top to bottom of the whole Wicked album.

[11:25] Caroline Bowman: So by my 16th birthday, which was that next May 2004, my mom got tickets for all of us, like me and my family. So like it was my sweet 16th birthday. That was my like.

[11:36] Quincy Brown: Oh, so you saw original cast.

[11:38] Caroline Bowman: I saw that original cast. I saw Adina and Kristen. And I had already, you know, all the songs were memorized. I was totally that audience member, like not singing along because that's a no, no. That's a no, no, unless you're Elsa and Frozen and Let It Go. And there's 1,000 six year olds and you're like, I can't.

[11:56] Quincy Brown: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Wait, did you see it pre Tony Awards, too?

[12:00] Caroline Bowman: Yeah.

[12:00] Quincy Brown: Ooh, that's fun.

[12:03] Caroline Bowman: That's really fun. And then I saw it again my senior year of high school. I saw Megan Hilty and Shoshana Bean. So I got to see like Fierce Upon Fierce. And so then after that, YouTube happened like my freshman year of college. And so I was just obsessed with like watching YouTube videos of Shoshana Bean eating Espinosa. And like all I would do was watch Wicked videos on YouTube, like alone in my dorm room.

[12:27] Kevin Bianchi: Didn't we all?

[12:28] Caroline Bowman: Yeah. I was just living my life. And I had actually, do you remember like LimeWire on Napster? You could get like illegal bootlegs. And so I had illegal bootlegs of it, just like living. So I definitely was like a total Wicked nerd.

[12:47] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah.

[12:48] Caroline Bowman: And I think I just started kind of manifesting the idea. Like I knew I saw the show and I said, I got to play that role. I got to be Elsa. I mean, I had been preparing for this since I got that Wicked album, you know?

[13:01] Quincy Brown: Yeah. So then what was the audition process like? Because it happened pretty quickly after you finished school, correct?

[13:07] Caroline Bowman: So yeah. So I finished school in 2010 and then I went, I did a couple.

[13:11] Caroline Bowman: I went on the road. I did Spamalot. I did the non-academic tour of Spamalot. And that was so fun. And did a couple other things before I moved to New York. And I moved to New York in October of 2011 with nothing. I could say two suitcases and a prayer. I moved to 52nd and 9th. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah. But no. I moved to 52nd and 9th right above Lucky Burger. Yeah. I was subletting and my apartment was so tiny. And it was a walk-up and it had mice crawling all over the counters like infested. Oh, my God. And I was like, it's New York. And I remember like, I had done like self submissions for things. And especially while I was on the road to Spamalot, I was very, what's the word? You're eager. I was very eager.

Yes. And so when I was on the road to Spamalot, I would send in cover letters and my headshot and say, I'm moving to New York. And at this time, like, wow. And I self submitted for I am. I'll never know how I got this audition. Never. I would probably ask somebody in Telsey now, but now it's been 10 years. So but I had self submitted for Funny Girl for like that. Remember that revival that was supposed to happen? Yes. So I'd self submitted myself, like just send in my stuff. And they asked for a video. They asked me to submit a video to Telsey. And I did. And then they gave me feedback. And I submitted another video. And I'm thinking that's when I somehow went into some kind of an Elphaba stack.

Yeah. But then when I moved to New York in October, I was like, I need to audition for everything, Telsey, even if I just need them to see me because I didn't have an agent. I didn't. And so I was going in for like Next to Normal. I was going I went in for like a couple just open calls, EPAs, like just being seen. Yeah. And so three weeks after I moved to New York, I was called in for Wicked. Wow. For the Elphaba Understudy track. And I had like, I talked to my roommate who I wasn't that close with at the time, like I just moved in with her. And we were like having a kiki one night, like sitting on the couch. And I said to her, you know, I think my show is Wicked. Like we're and we're going back and forth.

I wasn't trying to be like, we're just going back and forth about what we think we're right for. And she said to me, and it wasn't mean, she wasn't being mean. But she said, you know, they have like lists upon lists of people. It would take you a long time to even be seen for that. Kind of like, good luck. Yeah. And I was not again, eager, eager beaver. I was in my head, I go, but they haven't seen me yet. Oh, I was like, Okay, that doesn't discourage me. I just knew I don't know. So I get the call from them directly from the casting office because I didn't have an agent again. And they called me and said, Hey, Caroline, we'd love to bring you in for Wicked for the understudy. And I was like, Okay, I'd love to come in.

And they sent me the Elphaba packet. So I had one audition, I believe it was on a Wednesday. And they call you in really early in the morning. It's so weird. And I'm almost wondering if it's a test for I mean, I don't know other Elphabas about what time they went in. But I'm like, nobody should be singing Defying Gravity at 10am. Yeah. And so I would go to the gym. I was at the gym by like 5am. Again, eager, but also, I knew in order to be able to sing those songs the way I want to attend, I needed to have five hours like I needed to. And then I did my first audition on that Wednesday, and they called me back on the spot. Wow. I just said in the room, they're like, we'd like to bring you back in tomorrow for more of the team.

And I was like, Okay, feeling good, feeling good. So I went home, same material, I went home, went to bed, and did the same thing. Got to go back to the gym. I did all the material for whoever it was, maybe they had like an associate come in and add more people to the room. And then they called me later on on that Thursday and said, Can you come in for a dance call? So it was all very fast. They were like, wow. Yeah, Friday, I went in for a dance call. And I mean, now looking back, it was sort of clear to me because they were giving me all the notes. Like they're like, Caroline, can you fix that? Caroline, can you do that? Like they were really focused on me. And so I finished that dance call, and I left and I was just exhausted.

Because I've been getting up at 5am every day for the past three days. And also like probably before that my adrenaline is pumping learning the material. And my mom happened to be in town. And this is when we get to the video. So my mom was in town. My mom's an actress as well. And she was in town for a commercial audition. So we were always going to meet up after my final callback. And she met me up and we were on Ninth Avenue walking up trying to find a place to eat. And she was like, how'd it go? And I'm like, I don't know. I'm so tired. Like, you know, and I get a call from the office. And I look down and it's a 212 number. And I was like, Mom, this is them. And I answer the phone call. And it's Chelsea's office.

And they were like, Caroline, I'd like to offer you your Broadway debut. And I was standing on 45th and 9th. And my mom had a flip cam. So not like we didn't have iPhones. Yeah, he took it out and started filming me. And it was like, that was it. It was like that day, whatever in October. And so I moved to New York. And three weeks later, I got a call that I was making my Broadway debut. It was nuts. But I guess in the grand scheme of things, I had been prepping for that. Years of preparation.

[18:45] Quincy Brown: And it is like the ultimate case for eagerness. Like you're saying is it's like you were putting the work in for months and months leading up to it. And then you got there and it happened. I don't think you can ever be too eager is eager the word I guess like that it can people can look at that as like a negative thing. Yeah, you got to really want this. You got to really, really want it. And you got to see yourself and put yourself there and do the work and make it happen. Because I was like, I'm gonna make this happen if nobody else like I don't have an agent. And also nice for you. You booked it without an agency. You didn't have to pay a commission. You better save that extra 10%.

[19:25] Caroline Bowman: I didn't believe it. Yeah. And I moved out of my mice-ridden apartment. I was like, Oh, maybe I'll do afford something else. So when you came back as lead, was that an ask back? Or was it let's audition again? How does that work?

[19:39] Caroline Bowman: So it was a little bit of both.

[19:42] Quincy Brown: Okay.

[19:42] Caroline Bowman: So when I was sorry, when I was leaving Wicked the first time I was leaving for Kinky Boots. I was like, I'm gonna go in this original cast and like do this. And they were trying to get me to stay on. So they offered me the Elphaba standby on the tour. And that was really hard for me to like, turn down. Like, oh my gosh, they're, they were trying to keep me in the family. And of course, and that's like, so nice. And like, yeah, I felt honored and stuff. And I said, I still like stuck to my gut. And I was like, I'm gonna go do this. Even though it's on another ensemble track. I was like, I'm gonna go be in an original cast and like perform at the Tonys. Like, oh my gosh, on the album, like stuff like that. Like I was like, okay, I'm gonna go do this, which was really hard for me because Wicked was my ultimate dream. And so that was really hard for me to say, you know what, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go do this now.

[20:31] Quincy Brown: Did you think then that you're closing the door on Wicked forever? Or did you have a feeling?

[20:36] Caroline Bowman: No, I still have like, they were really sweet about it. And I had already put in my notice. And then they was giving me an offer to see that if they could compete with it. And that was really, must have felt good.

[20:42] Quincy Brown: Yeah, so a couple, I was doing the Evita tour. And I guess my name had come up as a contender, like an Elphaba replacement. And so my name was in like an email, I think an email, according to my manager, it was in an email chain. And then they don't do offers for Elphaba. Like they've and that's what they were saying. They're like, we've never offered Elphaba to somebody.

[21:02] Caroline Bowman: Interesting.

[21:03] Quincy Brown: I mean, that's and that could be it could have been a lie. And it could have been I'm not a big deal. Like it's like, so I'm so I get it. It's a big endeavor. So I had to go in an audition. But like, I showed up at Telsey and there was a Wicked room and nobody else was in the casting office. So like, I was like, this is for me. Yeah. Unless they separated us by an hour. There was no other Elphabas in the room.

[21:27] Caroline Bowman: Interesting.

[21:28] Quincy Brown: The most intimidating room I've ever walked into. Oh my gosh, I walked in as Stephen Schwartz is sitting right in the center of the room. Oh my God. Then Stephen and Remus, who I've worked with a lot because I've done Kinky Boots with them, but like still, then Joe Mantello. And then David Stone, the producers, all the producers, the music director, Brian Perry, like, so intimidating. I mean, I was like, I am gonna vomit. You want me to sing Defying Gravity for you. And I'm so I'm like, I start doing the scenes. And I think it was the cub scene right before I'm not that girl. And Joe Mantello comes up to me after I finished the scene and puts his arm around me. He just whispered to me. He's I want you to relax a little bit out loud.

I was like, Okay, okay, I can do that. In my head. I'm like, how do you want me to relax? Clearly, I like had nervous energy. And I was like, I don't know how to do that. I can't I don't know. I was like, I'll do my best. And so I like I probably did the scene. Like, I just dialed it back a little bit. But I don't know. It's probably not what he meant. I don't you relax. You try you walk. Yeah. Like, everybody in the world that you've looked forward to working with your entire life. So yes, I had to audition. But ultimately, I must have done something in the room that said yes, she can handle this. Yeah. Do you feel like doing Evita prepared you to do Elphaba full time?

[22:54] Caroline Bowman: I think so. However, I do look back and I wish I took a little bit more time off between I only took a month and I've been on the road for a year and a half. And I was, I probably could have taken a little bit more time to like, have a resting time before I dove into Elphaba. But then I wouldn't have had the cast I did. And I like Kara Lindsay's like my best friend and like Robin de Jesus was our Bach. Oh, yeah. And like, it was just a good group of people. And I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I'm so grateful I got to do it with them. I'm Kathy Fitzgerald was our Madame Morrible who's like the Madame Morrible. So it was just like a stellar group that I'm so glad I got to do it with but I was I probably just for mental health and stuff just to be more like ready to rest.

[23:47] Quincy Brown: I feel like we've heard that from a couple different actresses at this point is like, everything was great. I'm so happy that I booked it when I did but I wish that I had had more time off before I booked it. Because it's there. How do you prepare to start that journey? And also like nobody's like you're not gonna say no to Elphaba.

[24:05] Caroline Bowman: Right.

[24:07] Quincy Brown: Like, maybe the second and third time you're asked to do it or something. The first time, you know, you're just probably not going to say no. So like, you figure it out. But yeah, it is like you have to be ready because it's a big endeavor.

[24:20] Quincy Brown: Okay, so Caroline, as we do want to talk to you about The Wizard and I, okay, before we do, so we have this theory where any Elphaba is either a Wizard and I Elphaba, a Defying Gravity Elphaba, or a No Good Deed Elphaba. A, do you agree with that? And B, did you feel most at home in any one of those songs?

[24:41] Caroline Bowman: Hey, do I agree with that? It's fun. I listened to your first episode. I thought that was I thought that was cool. I was waiting for you to get to me.

[24:51] Quincy Brown: You're in the ball. You're in the ball.

[24:52] Caroline Bowman: So with The Wizard and I and Defying Gravity and No Good Deed, I didn't really stray from the I'm a I'm a you're a score Elphaba. And people know that I'm a classic. Like I stay. I'm like, what was written was great. I love a score Elphaba.

[25:08] Quincy Brown: It's like, I'm a planned refer.

[25:10] Caroline Bowman: Sure. I need to practice it in the shower five times before I do it, then I'll test it. But I also don't believe in I just, unless it has meaning and intention, I just won't do it. I applaud people who can do it and like can do it in the moment and like, be free and like, go like live. But I'm really passionate about is that battle cry at the end of Defying Gravity. It's a battle cry. She's like, ah, like, if I wasn't saying it, she'd be screaming. She's off a mountain, like, basically, if you all I'm breaking out, I really want that always to be that. Ah, like, that's what I want. But that's the only thing I'm really passionate about. I was gonna say that kind of felt like you were leaning towards a Defying Gravity Elphaba. I'm not that girl.

[25:57] Caroline Bowman: That's a conversation. But I do feel like I guess if I was going to choose one, I just think No Good Deed is like, so powerful. And I loved it and hated it. Like it was so hard. And I feel like I could never like get my where I wanted it to sit vocally. I could never do it because I couldn't get my breath. I think that kind of worked. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I felt like I was going nuts and like my

[26:51] Caroline Bowman: Moving into "The Wizard and I," I kind of had this thought where it's a very narrative style song. It almost feels like one of those songs that in theater school, they're like, okay, perform this as a monologue to help with your acting.

[27:02] Quincy Brown: Oh, 100%. So, like, I'm interested as to what the rehearsal process was like for that song. Like, do they pick it apart? Or is it kind of at this point, you sing the song and you can figure out the acting?

[27:12] Caroline Bowman: You're first in music rehearsal, obviously, like, that's like the very first thing you do when you learn Elphaba. And so you're in a music rehearsal by yourself for like two hours straight, maybe longer. "The Wizard and I" is also a long song. But they say cautious optimism. That's how they want you to start the song.

[27:30] Quincy Brown: Interesting.

[27:31] Caroline Bowman: Yeah, that's like one of the notes that I wrote down. Cautious optimism. I mean, even like structurally speaking, I think the song is so fun because the show starts and you're introduced to Glinda. And it's like, okay, she's your narrator. She's going to take you through the story. And then it's like, zoo, zoo, zoo, zoo, zoo, zoo. And then you're like, oh, no, she's mean, like she was mean. And then it's like, here's this new character. Let's try her on to be our emotional journey through the show. And so it's an uphill battle, I think, for Elphaba in terms of winning over the audience. Because two seconds ago, she was just yelling at everybody. You know what I mean? It's a big ask, that song.

[28:09] Kevin Bianchi: Well, because Elphaba enters very abrasively. And then when the song starts, the wall kind of comes down, it feels like.

[28:13] Caroline Bowman: Right. And that's what's supposed to happen. We're supposed to see like, the excitement in Elphaba and the young and she's like, yeah, she's not this jaded character. She's got hopes and dreams. And she wants all these things. But yeah, it's like being shot out of a cannon, though. That being the first thing you sing, you're like, you better be ready. You better have like, not like, oh, I'm not gonna warm up today. Yeah, no, no, no, you better be ready. Because that's a big thing. I think the cautious optimism is like maybe making sure you're starting in this like, excited but small place. Like every verse is like a step up from the next.

[28:47] Quincy Brown: Do you feel like vocally the song builds in a way that prepares you for the end? Or is the end still tricky?

[28:51] Caroline Bowman: I think it does. I think it's a good build. I really, I think it's a beautifully written song. It's long. Oh my gosh, and something I always happen to me every time. And I think it's because they had me put you, you have to look up and see you're unlimited with what that is for you. So you have to look down to make sure you're not going to trip. And then you look up and always post nasal drip.

[29:24] Quincy Brown: So then wait, I have a technical question about "The Wizard and I." Are you queuing the conductor with that last arm movement?

[29:31] Caroline Bowman: Yeah, I think that's like, ultimately, this is the end of the song.

[29:34] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah. And the same with "Defying Gravity."

[29:37] Caroline Bowman: Yes, you can push the air. Yeah, yeah. And it's very like, you have to make sure I got a lot of notes on that. But yeah, it's like, very distinct down and up. And then with "The Wizard and I," really, obviously, they want it to be thrilling and hold it as long as you and often and they want the vibrato in right at the end. That's like, yeah, that's a definite cut off. Yeah.

[30:00] Quincy Brown: A lot of power, though. You get to conduct the show twice.

[30:03] Caroline Bowman: Right, right. We have that power playing Elsa. And she's also magical.

[30:07] Quincy Brown: And you were a singing voice for a troll in the actual Frozen movie.

[30:10] Caroline Bowman: Yeah, isn't that cool?

[30:12] Quincy Brown: That's insane to me. Are there any other Broadway names who were trolls that we should know about?

[30:15] Caroline Bowman: Yeah, well, all the girls, Annalie Ashford, all the women that were in Kinky Boots in the original cast. Oh, Book of Mormon cast at the time. Yeah. Steven Remus was our music director. And he was to all the women. He was like, Do you want to come be in this Disney movie? Like, and I was like, Okay, like, I really he didn't say anything about it. And I was like, I had no idea what it was. I didn't know anything. And I thought maybe it was a Disney short. Like I thought, like, Oh, yeah, of course. Like, why not?

[30:47] Quincy Brown: Yeah, singing rocks. Cute.

[30:49] Caroline Bowman: But we went into a studio and we recorded "Fixer Upper" with the Book of Mormon cast in us. And I just learned the song. I just did what I was told. I really didn't like, I feel like early in my career, I just was like, Yes, yes, whatever. I didn't like speak up. I probably should have raised my hand when they were offering solos. I just didn't want to be I just didn't want to I've gotten better about knowing my worth and advocating for yourself.

[31:15] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah. So the movie came out and I was like, I guess I should go see this. I was in it. And we saw it. And I was like, this is like a big deal. And then I was like getting residual checks.

[31:27] Caroline Bowman: That's always nice.

[31:29] Kevin Bianchi: Are we still getting residual checks? Like I have to imagine Frozen is on the holidays and like when Frozen 2 came out.

[31:33] Caroline Bowman: It's not they're definitely not as big as they were when it first sure. I was like, okay, that's incredible.

[31:42] Quincy Brown: Caroline, where can people find you online on social media and such?

[31:46] Caroline Bowman: Instagram is Caroline Bowman five. And I don't really tweet a lot. But my Twitter is Caroline V Bowman.

[31:54] Quincy Brown: Caroline Bowman, thank you so much.

[31:56] Caroline Bowman: Oh, you're so welcome. I know I could just like hang out with you.

[32:01] Quincy Brown: All right, bye friends.

[32:08] Kevin Bianchi: Caroline Bowman, thank you so much for joining us. I'm so glad that she was here. And I was so excited to talk about "The Wizard and I" because as you know, Quincy, I am a Glinda girl. But I think "The Wizard and I" is one of the most actable songs in contemporary musical theater.

[32:24] Quincy Brown: Should that be on a t-shirt? I am a Glinda girl.

[32:27] Kevin Bianchi: I am a Glinda girl. Do you remember the old t-shirts and the Elphaba one said "Defying Gravity" and the Glinda one said "Popular"?

[32:34] Quincy Brown: Yeah.

[32:35] Kevin Bianchi: Anyway, I love "The Wizard and I," so I was so excited to talk about that song. And I know that you love Caroline Bowman. So I'm glad that we both—not that I don't—I'm glad that we both got to talk about something we love today.

[32:47] Quincy Brown: I think this is a really special episode for the two of us.

[32:50] Kevin Bianchi: I think so. Quincy, you know what I love about "The Wizard and I" that we didn't talk about?

[32:54] Quincy Brown: About what?

[32:55] Kevin Bianchi: I love that the "and I" becomes more important as the song goes on. Like it's really Elphaba centering herself in her own dreams because she starts off and it's like "The Wizard and I" and then it's like "The Wizard and I" and then by the end it's like, yeah, fuck The Wizard. I'm the big exciting part of this partnership.

[33:16] Quincy Brown: Kevin, every episode without fail, you drop some analysis that makes me see the show in a new light. You're absolutely correct. You know that though.

[33:28] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah, but I loved talking to Caroline because I feel like something that she kind of put into focus for me was really how these women are just going to work. They're just clocking in, hoping they make it through those three big numbers and then going home at the end of the night. And I feel like our conversation with Caroline really focused the fact that like it is us, it is the fans, it is the culture surrounding the show that built these women up into being stars.

[33:54] Quincy Brown: Right, like we are creating the...

[33:57] Kevin Bianchi: Which is always a double sided coin kind of because I know a lot of the Elphabas also don't enjoy the nastiness of certain fans and like she's number one, she's not culture of Wicked and that has kind of turned into the culture of Wicked with fans. But I think on the other side of that, there is like a really beautiful thing where the fan base of Wicked is unlike any other. Like I can't even think of another show that... I was gonna say Beetlejuice in a way, but not really. I think Beetlejuice felt very... had a rabid fan base, but it felt different in vibe.

[34:31] Quincy Brown: Well, and even that it's just like, I feel like the Wicked fan base is an established fan base.

[34:38] Kevin Bianchi: I also think it's like Wicked looked at through a gay man's lens is also really interesting to me.

[34:44] Quincy Brown: I mean, if we're gonna talk about this.

[34:46] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah, which I think is important to talk about. I mean, it's us. So because I feel like Wicked defined a lot of gay men's childhood or younger years.

[34:55] Quincy Brown: Yeah, because here's this musical with this woman who is different than everybody else.

[35:01] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah.

[35:02] Quincy Brown: And then just like leans into it and becomes notorious because of those differences.

[35:07] Kevin Bianchi: I also think it's interesting that, I mean, I feel like pop culturally now gay men really respond to a strong female character who doesn't give a fuck and is making themselves happy.

[35:18] Quincy Brown: And I feel like Elphaba very much is that. And I think that's very interesting to look at as well.

[35:22] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah.

[35:22] Quincy Brown: Ah, Wicked.

[35:24] Kevin Bianchi: Ah, Wicked.

[35:25] Quincy Brown: Ah, Caroline Bowman.

[35:26] Kevin Bianchi: Ah, Caroline Bowman.

[35:28] Quincy Brown: I thought it was actually super interesting that she said Evita was an easier thing than Elphaba.

[35:30] Kevin Bianchi: At one point in the conversation, Caroline was saying like, you can't let the show of Wicked warm you up.

[35:38] Quincy Brown: Whereas Ava or Evita, you can kind of like do a regular warm up and then let Act One kind of build you to that.

[35:47] Kevin Bianchi: Evita parts you where he loves you. You know what I mean?

[35:49] Quincy Brown: Well, and she also brought up when we were talking about belting, she was talking about how Elphaba is a very aggressive character and she feels, and her Elphaba at least, she felt like that needed to be reflected in the way that she sings.

[35:54] Kevin Bianchi: And her Ava wasn't necessarily that.

[35:56] Quincy Brown: And I think that rings true because her Ava, when she's up there belting, it's more mixy of a belt.

[36:02] Kevin Bianchi: The character of Ava is so calculated.

[36:04] Quincy Brown: And so that affords an actress who is playing her the chance to be like very specific with her vocal choices.

[36:12] Kevin Bianchi: Whereas in Wicked, it's like you got a belt and then you got a belt and then you got a belt and it's only going to be exciting if the belt gets more dangerous as you go.

[36:33] Quincy Brown: I'm just so excited to see what comes next in her career.

[36:36] Kevin Bianchi: I know.

[36:37] Quincy Brown: I kept thinking about that is she is young.

[36:40] Kevin Bianchi: And has been working.

[36:41] Quincy Brown: Right.

[36:42] Kevin Bianchi: And she was in Wicked young.

[36:45] Quincy Brown: I think when the show started Elphaba was kind of like, oh yeah, once you've gotten your chops, then you become an Elphaba.

[36:51] Kevin Bianchi: Whereas now I feel like it's almost a jumping off point for people's careers.

[36:56] Quincy Brown: A thrilling interview, really.

[36:58] Kevin Bianchi: Truly thrilling.

[36:59] Quincy Brown: She's so sweet.

[37:00] Kevin Bianchi: I know.

[37:01] Quincy Brown: Thank you again, Caroline.

[37:02] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah. Thank you, Caroline.

[37:03] Quincy Brown: All right. I think it's time for Kevin's Glinda Corner.

[37:11] Kevin Bianchi: As you know, I'm trying to talk about the Glinda of each section that we're talking about.

[37:16] Quincy Brown: I love that you're doing that.

[37:17] Kevin Bianchi: I'm trying to create a journey for the Glinda girls who are listening. Obviously Glinda is not in "The Wizard and I," but she does have the last book line where she's like, something is wrong. I didn't get my way. I need to lie down. So she says that. And so that's her contribution to "The Wizard and I." It gets a big laugh and it does kind of put the audience in a good mood before they hear this song. So I think that's important.

[37:42] Quincy Brown: But Glinda has a lot of funny lines that are funny because they happen in that one, two, three pattern.

[37:50] Kevin Bianchi: Interesting.

[37:51] Quincy Brown: Something is wrong. I didn't get my way. I need to go lie down. Or every time she's talking to Bach, it's like, Bic, Bach, but look it over there. Like it's always like, clap, clap, clap.

[38:01] Kevin Bianchi: I think if Elphaba is our pinnacle contemporary leading lady, Glinda is really the example of traditional musical theater.

[38:08] Quincy Brown: Harkens back to that era.

[38:12] Kevin Bianchi: Yeah. Which is probably why I like her so much and you like Elphaba so much.

[38:19] Quincy Brown: Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense.

[38:20] Kevin Bianchi: And yet again, you dropped some knowledge.

[38:24] Quincy Brown: I'm afraid for the day where I like, don't have something groundbreaking to say, I'll have to talk about the very small, but very large shoes of Kristen Chenoweth for a different.

[38:34] Kevin Bianchi: I've gotten that spiel from you.

[38:35] Quincy Brown: And I think that's worth talking about.

[38:37] Kevin Bianchi: All right, Kevin. Thanks.

[38:38] Quincy Brown: That was a fantastic Glinda corner.

[38:40] Kevin Bianchi: I guess at this point in the show, it's going to this corner.

[38:45] Quincy Brown: Oh, thanks for listening guys.

[38:48] Kevin Bianchi: Thank you so much.

[38:50] Quincy Brown: We will talk to you guys next week. I hope we have a new president next time we talk to you.

[38:58] Quincy Brown: You've been listening to Sentimental Men. This episode was produced, edited and hosted by Quincy Brown and Kevin Bianchi. Thanks to Julie DiMarzo for our thrillifying artwork. And thanks to you for tuning in. You can reach us at SentimentalMenPod at gmail.com or on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Sent Men Pod. That's S E N T M E N P O D. Until next time, I'm Quincy and I'm Kevin.

[39:28] Kevin Bianchi: Shall we stop recording?

[39:30] Quincy Brown: Sure.