This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:18] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the Catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest.

[0:24] Mike Abrams: He is a three-time Tony Award nominee who is currently performing as the King in Only Gold at the MCC Theatre here in New York. But he was the original Rum Tum Tugger in the original Broadway production of Cats. So welcome, Terrence Mann, and thank you for joining me.

[0:39] Terrence Mann: Thanks, man. Nice to be here.

[0:41] Mike Abrams: I'm excited to have you on. I know I've always kind of jokingly put Tugger as my answer for everything. So it's the name of, like, if you actually look at the actual name of my Instagram, and for a long time I had it as my email name. So fan of your character. And I love talking to the original Broadway cast, because my first question is always just, what was your experience with the show before? As I talked to everyone on tour and everyone who's doing it now, because it's been on for so long. But as someone who helped originate the role, you created a lot of this stuff. So I love to go back to the beginning. What was that process like? What was the mindset of when you got brought this project originally?

And it's like, someone's like, hey, you're going to dress up as a cat and you're going to just basically, you know, thrust your crotch at everybody and run around stage and be this kind of rock star. Like, did that resonate? Like, what was that like back when that happened? Because it's now it's common. But, you know, whenever it started, it had to be kind of a bizarre thing to get asked about.

[1:42] Terrence Mann: Well, it was in the beginning, people had seen the London production, some people that I was in shows with. And they had come back and they had said, wow, I saw this show over in London called Cats. And I went, what do you mean cats? Is it was based on, you know, it's based on the poetry by T.S. Eliot. And I went, wow. And they explained it. And you still kind of didn't understand it. That you walk into the theater and that all of the set was like cat size. So you were reduced to being the size of a cat. So the whole environmental experience of it, number one, was kind of new to, I think, Broadway anyway. And then, I mean, like auditioning for it, you know, it was that was a whole nother thing.

I make a very long story short, I couldn't get an audition for Cats in New York. And so I flew to London and through some friends over there talked my way into an audition while they were doing a put in rehearsal for some new cats in the show. And I saw the show the night before my audition, which was like, I think, April the 6th, 1982, I think. Yeah, because we opened in September 7th, 1982. So I went in and basically did the audition. And I talked my way into it, got into the audition for Gillian Lynn, had seen the show. So I knew what it was. And it was just at that time it was, it was, to coin a cat phrase, magical. I mean, it was just unbelievable. It was so surreal and, you know, trippy.

And then you got all this choreography and this kind of pop rock music. It's Andrew Lloyd Webber. So, you know, I come back to the States. I find I hear back. I got the job. And then we start to do the rehearsals. And about the time we started to do rehearsals, they were releasing tickets to the theater, the Winter Garden. And I think the initial when people bought those tickets, it was like a five million dollar advance in 1982, which today would have been like, I don't know, 20, 30 million dollars in advance. So my first thought, you know, was like, wow, I'm going to have a job for a couple of years, which no actor ever, ever thinks that about a show, you know, you knew it was going to it was going to be a juggernaut.

You knew whether or not the critics liked it, it was going to be a hit with the audience. So that was that was the first blush of what was going on. And then we get into the room with Trevor Nunn and with Gillian Lynn. And literally everybody starts. We talk about cats. We start crawling around and, you know, trying to act like a cat. And a lot of people went out and bought little kitties and, you know, so everybody was doing their due diligence, you know, and trying to, you know, become their characters. There was a I had kind of bad knees at the time. So getting down and crawling around a lot was was difficult. So I don't know if you notice it or not, but when you me and the Harry Groner who played Monkey Strap, we did a lot of standing on the stage rather than kneeling and crawling around because we both had knee problems.

[5:35] Terrence Mann: Wow. That was which which I liked. I like standing up standing. It was better than crawling around. So I love that.

[5:43] Mike Abrams: So you you didn't like didn't even get called in for the night before you saw the show and then you did your audition the next day. Did you audition like directly for Tugger after having seen Tugger the night before?

[5:57] Terrence Mann: Yeah, I went right in the next day to audition for Gillian Lynn. And she was doing a put in rehearsal for some new cats. So I went to the new London theater where I'd seen it the night before and got in, like I said, to some friends of mine who helped me get in the door. Literally, literally. And it's funny. She said I went in and I said, I'm here to audition for cats. And she said, oh, all right, darling. I said, is it if the if you're if your pianist is around, rehearsal pianist is right, I'll just do my song real quick and get out of your hair. And she went, well, he's gone around the corner to the pub for lunch. So I said, oh my God. So I said, well, I can play for myself. So I played this rock and roll song by Elton John called Take Me to the Pilot. And, you know, and she went, oh, OK, I'll see you at the callbacks. And you played your own audition song. Correct.

[6:54] Terrence Mann: The other funny thing was I said I could play for myself. And she and she went she started clapping and went, darlings, darlings, talking to the other cats she was putting in the show. We're going to be entertained by an American. And so I sat down on the piano and played that song and then got back, you know. And then, yeah, I didn't hear things. I didn't hear anything for a while. And then, well, not that long. No, a couple maybe a week or two. And then I found out I had an audition for the final callback in the States. It was on my birthday, July 1st. And then I found that day I got this job.

[7:37] Mike Abrams: So you found out on your birthday.

[7:40] Terrence Mann: Yeah. Yeah.

[7:44] Mike Abrams: Wow. What a present. What a birthday present to the role. So now walk me a little bit through that rehearsal process. Obviously, I know there's I've heard some like, you know, the legend stories of it. I know there's even a book about it and all kinds of stuff about that process of, of basically, you know, recreating this, this, the show. So I know you said you had bad knees. So you weren't crawling around. But what's like, how did they explain it to you the first time? Because now there's a lot of lore behind it of like, you know, there's, there's enough content out there that you can kind of understand a little bit of the backstory of the cats if you're going to go perform. But for you, they were, you're basically going off of what Trevor Nunn and Jillian Lynn are telling you. Like what, what was that storytelling like? How much like information did they give you on the backstory?

[8:24] Terrence Mann: Well, it, you know, Trevor Nunn really wanted to create a sense of ensemble, as he does with all of his companies. I mean, I think at the time he was still with the RSC, you know, so it was all about creating this ensemble, this energy, this feeling, this synergy of fear and anxiety, but also celebration because the story they're saying was, hey, look, we all come together one night, you know, we read the poems. And what you got out of that, the way they explained it simply was, you're all here to celebrate one cat who deserves to go to the Heaviside Lair. And then things happen throughout the evening and people get up and tell stories about like the Peaks and the Pollicles and the Rumpus Cat and all that, and would get up and tell those stories, that folklore, that history of the lives of cats to, you know, to generate remembering the power and the history of what cats do for civilization.

You know, it was very, very Shakespearean, if you will. I mean, it was big feelings with big emotions and very high stakes, you know, and that's, you know, because you're hanging all of this stuff on these children's poems. So our performances had to be, number one, a collective where we were all on the same page at the same time, all the time, emotionally and storytelling-wise, you know, whatever chapter we were in as the evening went on. So that was the big thing that Trevor kept trying to impart. Jillian was there, man. She just made all of the movement, you know, and the choreography. She created this, you know, vocabulary of what different movements were for each of the numbers and stuff, which I can't remember because I didn't do that much dancing. But, yeah, that was our acting class about it, other than crawling around like cats and getting a feel for it.

[10:50] Mike Abrams: Yeah, besides becoming a cat, you kind of have – it's really interesting to hear you say that, because now it seems like when they do the backstories and the production of, like, the rehearsals, it's a lot more of like, okay, here's this relation to that, and yours is a lot more Shakespearean, theatrical, big picture, and then kind of probably narrowing it in. Did they narrow down for you of, like, hey, here's what Tugger's about? Like, here's his story.

[11:15] Terrence Mann: Yeah, you know, Trevor Nunn just came up to me one day. He's a man of very few words, but when he does speak, and he speaks softly, it's always important, and it's always spot on with regard to what he's asking you to do. I remember one day he came up to me when we were kind of working the number, and I'd seen the show the night before, so I knew that Tugger was mischievous, and he was out there to kind of – he was kind of a tiger cat, and he was running around. He was always getting into trouble and trying to make everybody laugh, and he was the cut-up, like the jester almost of the – but he was also a serious cat because he was like – he really took seriously, ultimately, who was going to the Heaviside Layer.

He was like – I would say he was like a bodyguard maybe at some point, but Trevor came up to me at one point and said, the Tugger has this sense of méchant, and I went, oh, that's French, right? He said, yes, look it up. So I went and looked up the word French. I mean, I looked up méchant, and it means just mysterious and mystical and like unpredictable, and that's what I kind of hung the performance up. Also, my image was for a Mick Jagger kind of guy.

[12:58] Mike Abrams: Yeah, go ahead.

[12:59] Terrence Mann: Yeah, I think that's so interesting because it's like, from what I've heard, it's Tugger's – it's such a dance-heavy show with very clear and incredible choreography in any production. Your production, the one Andy Blankenbuehler did, it seems like Tugger's the one character where you're given a little bit of freedom. So did you have a little bit of freedom? Did you change it up every night with how you kind of went about it just based off of what your kind of mysterious day felt?

[13:24] Terrence Mann: I did, but I also was working within a context, within a box. I realized I had room to move within parameters, and that always kept it fresh for me. The thing that I saw in London was the guy came out into the audience. You know, the Tugger comes out into the audience, and he was shooting people with a gun.

[13:47] Terrence Mann: I remember the Tugger was shooting people with a water pistol and I knew that wouldn't fly in New York.

[14:17] Terrence Mann: The Tugger was a character that was very much about the audience. I mean, he was a rock star, and he was a cat, and he was a little bit of everything.

[14:27] Terrence Mann: I think the audience was a little confused at first, but they quickly got on board with it.

[14:37] Terrence Mann: I had a lot of fun with the crowd during the show. I would play with them, and it was just a blast.

[14:47] Terrence Mann: The original production was so different from what you see now. It was raw and it was fresh.

[14:57] Terrence Mann: I remember the first time we did the show, we were all just figuring it out as we went along.

[15:07] Terrence Mann: The Tugger was always a character that was meant to be larger than life.

[15:17] Terrence Mann: I think the Jellicle cats are independent and live separately until they come together once a year.

[15:27] Terrence Mann: That idea of independence is really interesting to me.

[15:37] Terrence Mann: It’s like they have their own lives, and then they come together for this special occasion.

[15:47] Terrence Mann: The Tugger was always a bit of a rebel, and I think that resonated with a lot of people.

[15:57] Terrence Mann: I loved the freedom of being able to interpret the character in my own way.

[16:07] Terrence Mann: There was a lot of improvisation involved, and that was really exciting.

[16:17] Terrence Mann: I remember one night, I just started dancing with the audience, and it was electric.

[16:27] Terrence Mann: The energy in the room was palpable, and it made the performance feel alive.

[16:37] Terrence Mann: I think that’s what made the show so special; it was a shared experience.

[16:47] Terrence Mann: The Tugger was a character that could really connect with the audience.

[16:57] Terrence Mann: I think that’s why people loved him so much.

[17:07] Terrence Mann: It was a role that allowed me to express myself in a way that felt authentic.

[17:17] Terrence Mann: I think that’s something that every performer strives for.

[17:27] Terrence Mann: The original cast was a group of incredibly talented people, and we all pushed each other to be better.

[17:37] Terrence Mann: I think that camaraderie really came through in the performances.

[17:47] Terrence Mann: We were all in it together, and that made it a really special experience.

[17:57] Terrence Mann: I remember the first time we performed in front of an audience; it was exhilarating.

[18:07] Terrence Mann: The response was overwhelming, and it felt like we were onto something big.

[18:17] Terrence Mann: I think that’s when I realized how much this show meant to people.

[18:27] Terrence Mann: It was more than just a performance; it was a cultural phenomenon.

[18:37] Terrence Mann: I think that’s what makes theater so powerful; it can bring people together.

[18:47] Terrence Mann: The Tugger was a character that embodied that spirit of connection.

[18:57] Terrence Mann: I think that’s why he still resonates with audiences today.

[19:07] Terrence Mann: It’s a role that I’ll always cherish, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to have played it.

[19:17] Terrence Mann: I’m currently working on a new show called Only Gold, which is running at the MCC Theater in NYC.

[19:27] Terrence Mann: It’s a completely different experience, but I’m excited about it.

[19:37] Terrence Mann: I think it’s important for artists to keep pushing themselves and exploring new avenues.

[19:47] Terrence Mann: Only Gold has been a labor of love, and I can’t wait for people to see it.

[19:57] Terrence Mann: It’s a different kind of storytelling, but I think audiences will really connect with it.

[20:07] Terrence Mann: I’m really proud of the work we’ve done, and I hope it resonates with people.

[20:17] Terrence Mann: It’s always a challenge to create something new, but that’s what makes it exciting.

[20:27] Terrence Mann: I think the theater community is incredibly supportive, and that makes a big difference.

[20:37] Terrence Mann: I’m looking forward to what the future holds for me and my career.

[20:47] Terrence Mann: I think there’s always room for growth and exploration in this industry.

[20:57] Terrence Mann: I’m grateful for the experiences I’ve had, and I’m excited for what’s next.

[21:07] Terrence Mann: I think the key is to stay open to new opportunities and to keep challenging yourself.

[21:17] Terrence Mann: That’s how you continue to evolve as an artist.

[21:27] Terrence Mann: I think the Tugger taught me a lot about that.

[21:37] Terrence Mann: It was a role that pushed me out of my comfort zone and helped me grow.

[21:47] Terrence Mann: I think that’s something every performer should strive for.

[21:57] Terrence Mann: It’s all about finding your voice and expressing it in a way that feels true to you.

[22:07] Terrence Mann: I think that’s what makes theater so special; it’s a reflection of who we are.

[22:17] Terrence Mann: I’m excited to continue that journey and see where it takes me.

[22:27] Terrence Mann: Thank you for having me on the show; it’s been a pleasure.

[22:37] Terrence Mann: I hope everyone checks out Only Gold and enjoys the experience.

[22:47] Terrence Mann: It’s been a joy to share my journey with you.

[22:57] Terrence Mann: I appreciate the support from the theater community and the audience.

[23:07] Terrence Mann: It’s what keeps us going and inspires us to create.

[23:17] Terrence Mann: Thank you again for this opportunity to share my story.

[23:27] Terrence Mann: I look forward to what’s next and hope to see you all at the theater.

[23:37] Terrence Mann: It’s a magical place, and I’m grateful to be a part of it.

[23:47] Terrence Mann: Until next time, take care and keep supporting the arts.

[23:57] Terrence Mann: I’ll see you at the next show!

[24:07] Terrence Mann: Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation.

[24:17] Terrence Mann: It’s been a pleasure to share my experiences with you.

[24:27] Terrence Mann: I hope you all have a wonderful day.

[24:37] Terrence Mann: Keep dreaming big and pursuing your passions.

[24:47] Terrence Mann: The world needs more art and creativity.

[24:57] Terrence Mann: Thank you for being a part of this journey with me.

[25:07] Terrence Mann: I look forward to connecting with you all again soon.

[25:17] Terrence Mann: Take care and keep shining your light.

[25:27] Terrence Mann: Until next time, goodbye!

[25:37] Terrence Mann: Thank you for having me on the show; it’s been a joy.

[25:47] Terrence Mann: I appreciate the opportunity to share my story and experiences.

[25:57] Terrence Mann: I hope to see you all at the theater soon.

[26:07] Terrence Mann: It’s a magical place, and I’m grateful to be a part of it.

[26:17] Terrence Mann: Thank you for listening, and take care.

[26:27] Terrence Mann: I’ll see you at the next show!

[26:37] Terrence Mann: Keep supporting the arts and pursuing your passions.

[26:47] Terrence Mann: The world needs more creativity and expression.

[26:57] Terrence Mann: Thank you for being a part of this journey with me.

[27:07] Terrence Mann: Until next time, goodbye!

[27:17] Terrence Mann: Thank you for having me on the show; it’s been a pleasure.

[27:27] Terrence Mann: I hope you all have a wonderful day.

[27:34] Terrence Mann: I remember the Tugger was shooting people with a water pistol and I knew that wouldn't fly in New York.

[28:04] Terrence Mann: The audition process was really interesting. I had to go in and sing, and then they asked me to do some movement. I was a little nervous, but I just went for it.

[28:34] Terrence Mann: During the show, I had a lot of fun with the crowd. I would play with them, and it was just a great experience to connect with the audience.

[28:46] Terrence Mann: One of my favorite memories was when we were doing the show and I would see people in the front row just light up when I came out. It was such a rewarding feeling.

[29:16] Terrence Mann: I think the Jellicle cats are really interesting because they live independently and come together once a year for the Jellicle Ball. It’s like they have their own lives but still have this special connection.

[29:26] Terrence Mann: The character of Rum Tum Tugger is so much fun to play because he’s unpredictable. You never know what he’s going to do next, and that keeps the audience on their toes.

[29:36] Terrence Mann: I remember one night I decided to improvise a little bit and it really paid off. The audience loved it, and it just made the performance feel alive.

[29:46] Terrence Mann: There was a lot of pressure to get the character right, but I just tried to have fun with it. I think that’s what the Tugger is all about.

[29:56] Terrence Mann: The energy in the theater was electric. Every night felt like a new adventure, and I loved being a part of that.

[30:06] Terrence Mann: I also had to think about how to make the character relatable. He’s larger than life, but there’s a part of him that everyone can connect with.

[30:16] Terrence Mann: I remember the first time I performed the Tugger in front of an audience. It was exhilarating and terrifying all at once.

[30:26] Terrence Mann: The choreography was also a big part of bringing the character to life. I had to really embody the movement and make it my own.

[30:36] Terrence Mann: I loved the costumes too. They were so vibrant and helped me get into character. It was like putting on a second skin.

[30:46] Terrence Mann: The original cast was such a talented group of people. We all pushed each other to be better and to take risks.

[30:56] Terrence Mann: I think that’s what made the show so special. We were all in it together, and that camaraderie really showed on stage.

[31:06] Terrence Mann: I’ve carried those experiences with me throughout my career. They shaped who I am as a performer.

[31:16] Terrence Mann: Now, I’m working on my new show, Only Gold, which is running at the MCC Theater in NYC. It’s a different kind of challenge, but I’m excited about it.

[31:26] Terrence Mann: The process of creating a new show is always thrilling. There’s something special about bringing new stories to life.

[31:36] Terrence Mann: I hope people come out to see it. It’s a unique experience, and I think audiences will really connect with it.

[31:46] Terrence Mann: I’m grateful for the journey I’ve had in theater. It’s been a wild ride, and I wouldn’t trade it for anything.

[31:56] Terrence Mann: The Tugger will always hold a special place in my heart, but I’m excited to explore new characters and stories.

[32:06] Terrence Mann: I think the beauty of theater is that there’s always something new to discover, whether it’s in a classic show or a brand new piece.

[32:16] Terrence Mann: I encourage everyone to keep supporting live theater. It’s such an important part of our culture and community.

[32:26] Terrence Mann: Thank you for having me on the podcast. It’s been a pleasure to share my experiences and thoughts about the Tugger and my journey in theater.

[32:36] Terrence Mann: I hope listeners enjoy the stories and feel inspired to explore the world of Cats and beyond.

[32:46] Terrence Mann: Remember, the magic of theater is all around us, and it’s up to us to embrace it.

[32:56] Terrence Mann: Thanks again, and I look forward to seeing everyone at Only Gold!

[33:06] Terrence Mann: Take care, and keep the spirit of theater alive!

[33:16] Terrence Mann: Bye for now!

[33:26] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[33:36] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[33:46] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[33:56] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[34:06] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[34:16] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[34:26] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[34:36] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[34:46] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[34:56] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[35:06] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[35:16] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[35:26] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[35:36] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[35:46] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[35:56] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[36:06] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[36:16] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[36:26] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[36:36] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[36:46] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[36:56] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[37:06] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[37:16] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[37:26] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[37:36] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[37:46] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[37:56] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[38:06] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[38:16] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[38:26] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[38:36] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[38:46] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[38:56] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[39:06] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[39:16] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[39:26] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[39:36] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[39:46] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[39:56] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[40:06] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[40:16] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[40:26] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[40:36] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[40:46] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[40:56] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[41:06] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪

[41:16] Terrence Mann: ♪ Musical number ♪