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[0:00] Alan Seales: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Theatre Podcast. This episode is actually coming to you from the vault. This is a republish of episode 54 with Alex Brightman, which was part of a Beetlejuice takeover that I did back in 2019, fall of 2019. So this guy, since we talked about Beetlejuice, he came back on Broadway and did Beetlejuice again, you know, because post-pandemic. Then The Shark Is Broken, they had Spamalot, and then in honor of Schmingadoon winning Best Musical at the Tonys last week, I figured, why not drop this episode with Alex again? Originally, it was aired as two parts, and I strung them together this time, and you just have one glorious long episode now to listen to. So congratulations to Schmingadoon for winning Best Musical this past season, and I'm not going to hold up anymore. Let's dive right into the episode. I hope you enjoy. Welcome to The Theatre Podcast, intimate personal conversations with theatre's biggest names. This episode is with Alex Brightman, who holds the role of Beetlejuice in, well, you guessed it, yeah, Beetlejuice. This is part of the September takeover that Beetlejuice has done. So if you haven't gone back and listened to any of the previous episodes that have been released in September, please do so, because they're all from Beetlejuice. They're all actors from Beetlejuice, so they've got some pretty good ones here. Actually, not all actors. We had Alex Timbers, too, who, of course, is the director, so got a little bit of the creative side in there as well. To reflect on this episode, I expected it to be funny. I mean, it is funny. Alex is funny, but I expected him to come in and be just telling jokes the whole time, because that's sort of my idea of him in my head. I hadn't met him personally before this interview, and he surprised me by being incredibly serious, being very real, very genuine, and just telling it like it is. And he told me off mic before we started, he said, I have an open book, wherever it goes, it goes. And I said, that's perfect, obviously. Those who have listened to me for a long time know I love to get deep. But I expected it to be funny, and it wasn't a laugh out loud the whole time kind of thing. It was very real, very deep. We get into some really personal stuff with him. And Alex, if you're listening, thanks for going there. It was a really great interview. And he just made it so easy to connect with him. And I think that's partially why he's been so successful, is that people just like working with him. So, we had such a great long talk that this is going to be a two-parter. This, of course, is going to be part one. So, before we get into the first half of this episode here, please visit us on ttp.fm, ttp.fm slash Patreon to show your support. And for those of you who are at the $5 tier or higher, you get to submit your questions. And a few of them got asked in the interview with Alex here. So, please enjoy part one of Alex Brightman.

[3:23] Alan Seales: My two-time Tony-nominated guest today has made his Broadway debut in Wicked in 2008 as Boq, and since then has gone on to roles in Assassins, Matilda the Musical, Big Fish and School of Rock, where he originated the role of Dewey Finn, earning him his first Tony nomination. His TV film credits include Royal Pains, The Good Fight, and Documentary Now, among many others. And he now holds the title role in Beetlejuice on Broadway, which brought him his second Tony nomination. Alex Brightman, welcome to The Theatre Podcast.

[3:52] Alex Brightman: Thank you so much. Anytime someone runs through your resume in sorts, it sort of sounds like you died. It always sounds like the next thing you're going to hear after that is like, and you know, found dead on the head of the highway is Alex Brightman. Can you imagine if all obituaries were read with as much enthusiasm? You know, you're hitting on kind of something that's kind of great, to be honest. I think, why wouldn't someone want to go out literally with a bang?

[4:19] Alan Seales: Yeah, right. That's not fun.

[4:20] Alex Brightman: Has made his Broadway debut. By the way, can I actually make an addendum?

[4:29] Alan Seales: Sure.

[4:30] Alex Brightman: My Broadway debut was not in Wicked.

[4:36] Alan Seales: Oh, your Broadway contract debut.

[4:36] Alex Brightman: My Broadway, right. Yes. My Broadway debut was Glory Days, which we made history. And I want to, that should not go without saying, because the history making record breaking one night only Glory Days.

[4:48] Alan Seales: That was one night of previews, right?

[4:54] Alex Brightman: No, it was opening night was our first original, our first performance, like really record performance was our last night on the stage. The next day, got a phone call, pack your things.

[5:05] Alan Seales: And you never got on stage.

[5:06] Alex Brightman: I bowed at opening night. And I think looking back, it's because they knew we were closing. So they were like, give them a thrill. Because yeah, that's, I mean, truly the crash course of the business in all one night.

[5:17] Alan Seales: What happened with that?

[5:18] Alex Brightman: I don't know the full story. I have speculation. I've like had certain things, you know, confirmed and some things stay nebulous and a mystery. But I think it's just like they didn't have the advance sale that they really thought they were going to they had a really hit thing out of town in DC.

[5:33] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[5:34] Alex Brightman: And it was like this new 22, 23 year old writers. And it was, you know, it was the time for that. It was like, trusting new writers over like having the stage writers bring in new stuff. It had every right to work, except I just think maybe it wasn't a Broadway show. I think it was an off Broadway show, or it was this amazing smash regional show. And I just think it wasn't big enough. It didn't have the audience and the reviews were not helpful.

[6:03] Alan Seales: Right.

[6:04] Alex Brightman: So I think all that combined, I think the producer just got a little scared and they pulled it.

[6:07] Alan Seales: Wow. And again, I can't begin to know that side of things. So that's just what I know. But it was, it certainly made for a hell of a story.

[6:16] Alan Seales: Well, being, being your, I guess if you had got on stage or official Broadway debut, but you, you got there and you're like, all right, this is it. I'm in, I'm in New York. I'm making my debut.

[6:27] Alex Brightman: And then I thought I was going to have my first Broadway show by 30. So I got it at 18. And I was, I bought, this is so embarrassing. I bought the entire collection of R.L. Stine's Goosebumps on eBay. And I lined my dressing room with it. And I, this can be confirmed by Jeremy Woodard, Broadway's Jeremy Woodard that he, we were like, we're going to, we're here. We're not going anywhere. And then the embarrassment of having to lug that away the next day, you're going to read the whole thing. I was like, I'm going to make my way through these again. It reminds me of my childhood that I just left. And I was so, we had like decorated our dressing room, which is, I would say that's my advice to anybody who's going on Broadway in a new show or at any show, wait to decorate your dressing room to make sure you're a hit first.

[7:14] Alan Seales: Cause otherwise you're just going to have a little more work on the tail end.

[7:16] Alex Brightman: Or at least, at least don't bring in heavy, heavy books.

[7:19] Alan Seales: That's right.

[7:20] Alex Brightman: Jeez. Okay. So, so back it up to very beginning and you grew up in Saratoga, California.

[7:27] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[7:27] Alan Seales: I did very good. You're one of the few people that get that right in the first shot. Most people say San Jose cause I say San Jose cause it's more of a reference point, but yes, Saratoga, California, that's where I'm from.

[7:35] Alan Seales: And how long, how long were you there? Like what was your childhood?

[7:40] Alex Brightman: My childhood was pretty good. I had like a, I feel bad for people growing up these days because it's social media is such a thing. And I grew up like right when it was just starting to become a thing. There wasn't YouTube when I was a kid. I don't think there was Twitter and Facebook just came into play when I was in high school. So I thankfully, I think missed out on all of that type of mishegossed to use a Yiddish term that I had a pretty easy, like you have the same kind of trials and tribulations that any kid would have growing up that wants to do musical theater. That a people don't think it's a career or everyone calls you gay or everyone, you know, it's all that I get that. And I sympathize with that completely because I did get it, but no more than a regular person would have gotten it. I'm certainly again, feel for the people that are getting it left and right these days.

[8:35] Alan Seales: Still, still getting it.

[8:36] Alex Brightman: Oh my God. Yeah. It's crazy. And I try to every step of the way, make sure people know that like, if your passion is this thing, keep doing it because those people may never change, but the world will see them as the bad people eventually. So I like to think that that's sort of what happened with me is that I just sort of said, I like baseball and I like musicals. I'm going to do both of them, even though at some point I'm going to have to make a choice because you can't do both. I guess damn Yankees. Yeah. You can do both, but only one show for the rest of my life.

[9:04] Alan Seales: What if you did there, I was going to say you can make a musical about baseball, which was done, but what if you make a baseball derivative where you have to involve musical theater? Or what if I sort of did a third option, which was like the high school musical aspect of a kid that wants to do musical theater, but play baseball. So his only option is to always do damn Yankees. He makes a deal with another devil and he's like, you can do it, but it's going to be the same show forever.

[9:29] Alex Brightman: That is so inception right now. It's so meta.

[9:37] Alan Seales: Yeah. But honestly, growing up was great because I got to travel to New York because I have grandparents that lived in New Jersey and they would take me to Broadway show. And I saw my first Broadway show, my second Broadway show, my third Broadway show. And by that time I didn't even know what it was that I was falling in love with. But I knew that something felt really right when I was inside of a theater. And it's hard to explain. It's like the same feeling when you have like a grilled cheese with tomato for the first time. You're like, this is a thing. This is incredible. Wait a minute, I could do this. I could choose to have this whenever I want. That was the feeling. I was like, this is real. Now, you know, I got to go home and make a grilled cheese with tomato. There's nothing better, especially in New York City. There's nothing better than a diner version of that.

[10:13] Alan Seales: What was the first musical you saw?

[10:17] Alex Brightman: Cats.

[10:18] Alan Seales: Well, that's bringing it back.

[10:20] Alex Brightman: With my homie, Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[10:22] Alan Seales: That's right. Your homie.

[10:23] Alex Brightman: That's right. Bringing it back to School of Rock.

[10:26] Alan Seales: That's right. At the Winter Garden.

[10:28] Alex Brightman: Yes, at the Winter Garden. So, it's in your contract to only do shows pretty much at the Winter Garden.

[10:35] Alex Brightman: I'm telling you right now, that would be the best handcuff situation in the world. I love, capital L, love that theater. Truly.

[10:41] Alan Seales: Well, okay. So, how old were you when you saw Cats?

[10:46] Alex Brightman: I want to say I was turning eight, seven or eight years old.

[10:51] Alan Seales: Yeah. So, you were a little guy.

[10:52] Alex Brightman: Yep. And then, did you love Cats?

[10:56] Alex Brightman: Didn't love it.

[10:57] Alan Seales: This is what I want to do. I want to be a singing cat.

[11:00] Alex Brightman: Didn't love it. Still don't. But, what I've, I told Andrew Lloyd Webber, I said, I said, you know, seeing your show was the first time I saw a show. And that changed my life. So, truly, I mean, for better or worse, whether I liked it or not, Cats did change my life fundamentally because it changed the course of what I wanted to do. Because for the years prior to that, the, you know, the three conscious years prior to that, I was like, baseball or bust. Or I wanted to be, you know, whatever, an alien, whatever kids want to be. And then, I was like, that's what I want to do. I want to be on that side of the stage, not sitting here. And so, you know, for better, literally for better or worse, I got a chance to see the thing that I wanted to do years later.

[11:44] Alan Seales: Okay. So, seven or eight. Yeah. And then, you went to an all-male Jesuit high school.

[11:51] Alex Brightman: All-male Jesuit sports high school.

[11:54] Alan Seales: Yeah. Hold on, I'm processing. I'm like, uh-huh, uh-huh, check that. All of those things in one place.

[12:01] Alex Brightman: We'll say this, though. That was one of the better times of my life. Because the all-boys aspect of it was nice because you weren't there to impress anybody. Like, for me, it was like, I was so into the idea of girls. And I wanted to be a rock star because of girls. And that was, you know, when you're growing up, that's what it is. For me, it was. And it was nice to actually have an education that you gave a shit about. It was like, because I got to just wear sweatpants and a t-shirt and look like a schlub and learn about these things that I liked learning about. Which was like, I was really good at physics, it turned out. It was. I sucked at biology and chemistry. I was an ace at physics. And I loved it. I really did. I don't love it now. I couldn't regurgitate anything to you now. But I did the most, like, hard-nosed studying and made some really, really good friends. Which I didn't do in college. Sorry, I made friends in New York, but not in college.

[12:58] Alan Seales: Yes. Right? I mean, like, I think that it was a whole different story. But, like, the hatred of what was going on in my college experience that years that I was there, you know, really bonded a few of us. And now we're, like, desperately good friends because of it. But high school was a breeze. And I got to play some sports. Not well, because I was playing, like, upper levels of people that really wanted to play sports. And I really wanted to play sports and do musicals.

[13:22] Alan Seales: So, yeah, you couldn't focus on both.

[13:23] Alex Brightman: No. And I ended up focusing pretty significantly on theater. And I loved doing it.

[13:27] Alan Seales: So you're, I read that you're Jewish, yeah? You still consider yourself Jewish, but you went to a Jesuit high school, which is a Catholic derivative, yeah?

[13:37] Alex Brightman: Yeah. Strictly a power move. It was strictly a strategic. The idea was, if you went to this school and you did fairly well, you could sort of write your ticket to a college, because it's a really good school to have on your docket. Ended up being true, I guess. It got me, I mean, I ended up not having the exact right grades to get into NYU, but I think with my audition, it sort of pushed me into it. But yeah, I didn't, I don't really, religion-wise, I'm not really, like, anything here or there. I like to think, I'm stealing a term from one of my favorite comedians and podcasters, Pete Holmes, when I say, I'm probably a spiritual-leaning atheist.

[14:14] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[14:15] Alex Brightman: Like, I think something's going on, but I don't know if it's like a thing. I don't know if it's this guy, right? I call spirituality, like, being connected, and it's whatever I think is part of the energy that draws people into theater, especially into performing. Because if you can stand on stage, and you probably know this as well as anybody else, you know, if you can make, you could ride the wave, you make them laugh, you make them cry, you're making thousands of people at once feel the same way and bond unconsciously. That is my spirituality.

[14:52] Alan Seales: I won't fight you on that one bit. I think that's a great way to put it. I think that's probably right. That's probably the most I feel, you know, quote-unquote spiritual, is that it does feel churchy, you know, because it has all the aspects of a church. Everyone's, a lot of people facing one direction, some people facing the other direction, proselytizing about a certain thing, reading from someone else's work, you know, trying to make the others believe that it's true.

[15:20] Alex Brightman: I never put it quite in that perspective, but I think you're, yeah, you're exactly right. I mean, really, that's what they're doing. They're reading a script.

[15:23] Alan Seales: It's camaraderie.

[15:24] Alex Brightman: Yeah. Or they're improvising.

[15:26] Alan Seales: Right. To be honest, I mean, that's like the other thing.

[15:29] Alex Brightman: Well, speaking of improvising, Beetlejuice, you are, you are Beetlejuice, of course, and the opening number is you're singing to the audience.

[15:36] Alex Brightman: Yep. Acknowledging them.

[15:37] Alan Seales: Yeah, smashing the fourth wall.

[15:40] Alex Brightman: Breaking the fourth wall right off the bat. Yeah. And this is a song about death. Do you, is it different every night because you're actually interacting with the audience?

[15:47] Alex Brightman: Yes. It's a different show. Every single show is completely different from the top because we don't, I don't get a chance to like, have a camera, like scan the front row to sort of like, like, you know, some magicians get to figure out like, you know, who's the lady in the dress and what's her name. And I can be, oh, your name's Mary. And this is like the curtain opens and there they are. And some of them are engaged. Some of them still are turning off their cell phones. Some of them are sleeping. But like, it really is like this wacky group of misfit people that at some point or another, hopefully sooner than later, turn into what we call an audience. Because they're all singular people. They all can have their own point of view. But it is weird when you can all of a sudden feel like they've all agreed on something without talking to each other. And that's my job is to make them agree. My job is to go, I have all of you, trust me. And I will make you laugh, but you have to do me a favor. You have to laugh. You have to be engaged because I get to actually look in your eyes. That's the one benefit I have. Is that because I get to actually go to check in and go, what am I not doing? That's making you not laugh. And what's great is that every night I get to turn the knobs a certain way. So that by the end of the show, hopefully they're on their feet and they had a great time.

[17:02] Alan Seales: Have there been anybody that surprised you? Do you acknowledge cell phones going off?

[17:12] Alex Brightman: I haven't acknowledged a cell phone going off yet, though I will. I mean, I will happily. I did in School of Rock. I am not a fan of the idea. I don't believe in silencing your phone. I believe in turning it off. If it's so vital that you have your phone on, then do not go to the theater. If you're waiting on heart news or you're waiting on an EKG result, then just step away from the theater for two and a half hours. If it's that important, I want you to take that phone call. But if it's somebody calling you to tell you that It Part 2 was not as good as everyone said it was, go fuck yourself. It's crazy that you think you're that entitled, that you get to have yours, but I get to have my phone on. It's akin to people leaving their phone on an airplane. It's against the rules. Turn it off.

[18:00] Alan Seales: Well, it's just distracting.

[18:01] Alex Brightman: That's all I care about, by the way. Well, airplanes, death. To me, by the way, if my jokes get ruined by a cell phone, that is equal to death for me because I would slit my throat for some of the jokes in this show. And I just think that it's completely out of line to break a rule. And it is distracting. I don't think of it as a vanity thing. If you film me and get away with it, good for you. As long as I'm not distracted, I'm trying to put on a show that your friend told you about the night before. But if I'm doing a lesser job because somebody else has a big white cell phone flashing in my face, that is so unfair. And it's like, think of any other job. What if I came to that job and just moved a cell phone in front of your face your entire job? You'd be like, it's not about the phone. It's that it's distracting. Yeah. Period.

[18:49] Alan Seales: Yeah. Well, it's affecting everybody. It's affecting your performance, which then everybody else is watching. So they're not getting-

[18:53] Alex Brightman: And it trickles from the top down. Yeah. And I am near the top of this show. It's me and Sophia, who plays Lydia, that it really does. If my attitude changes for the negative, you feel it cast-wide. You can feel it show-wide. It's a different energy. I will say, though, last night, you said, has there been any strange surprises? I always pick on somebody in the show. There's always one person I pick on three times in the show. It's the same person. It's never the same seat. It's just I kind of pick who I think might be game to play. And this is coming from somebody, by the way, who does not like audience participation. I'm not a person that enjoys seeing a show to then only become part of it. I paid to see the show. I did not. So I sympathize with these people. So I make sure it's worth their while at the end. But there was a guy last night who was the butt of this joke three times in a row. And all three times, he was not having it. And I feel for him. And I'm sorry. And it is part of the show. It's not something I can- I can't just not do the joke or move on to another person. But it really was- it tickled me because it was like there were 1,500 people in that room and he was having a bad time. Strictly because of something I did. It's very powerful.

[20:02] Alan Seales: I just imagine he just sits there like-

[20:03] Alex Brightman: Well, I just like-

[20:04] Alan Seales: If it was a film, he just cut over to you and it's deadpan.

[20:06] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[20:06] Alan Seales: He's looking at you like, why?

[20:08] Alex Brightman: Yep. That's really what it was. And by the time- thankfully, it's few and far between in the show. But by the time it happened, I was like, man, this guy did not enjoy this. And that's not for everybody.

[20:19] Alan Seales: Somebody was telling me the same experience about Cats, too. They were like, I went to go see it and I don't want cats crawling on me or meowing next to me.

[20:23] Alex Brightman: It becomes a haunted house for me. I don't think of it as a show anymore. It feels like an experience that I don't like- I don't like to be involved if I've paid to watch.

[20:36] Alan Seales: Right. Like, if you've gone to watch, watch it.

[20:40] Alex Brightman: It's a hard rule for me.

[20:41] Alan Seales: Yeah. Well, it's tough. It's tough because, especially in multiple theaters, every show is different. And Great Comet actually had people stage out in the audience.

[20:52] Alex Brightman: And look, by the way, if it's part of the show and it's advertised in the show, like, for example, Great Comet, if you know that it's going to be very in-your-face and environmental and experiential, then you've bought into that by buying the ticket. Hopefully, no one's surprised by that aspect. And we don't do it enough in our show to really call our show environmental. I break the fourth wall. But yeah, if I came out and started noogieing somebody in the front row, then they'd have a case to make. Like, I did not come to be harassed.

[21:24] Alan Seales: Yeah. I want to go back to Glory Days, which happened in early 2008. And obviously, that was a one-day wonder. We'll call it that. And then Wicked happened in November 2008.

[21:36] Alex Brightman: The greatest consolation prize ever to somebody who just lost their first Broadway show.

[21:40] Alan Seales: So what were you feeling at that time between Glory Days and Wicked? And did you know Wicked was coming? Or is that just a random sort of audition? You're like, oh, I got it now.

[21:49] Alex Brightman: I'll answer both questions because I think they're both interesting. I didn't know enough to be sad about my show closing. I was so still in the whirlwind of, like, I'm in a Broadway show, and I'm 18, 19 years old, that I just was enjoying every moment of it. So when it closed, I was like, wow, that's too bad. But like, holy crap, I just did the thing I thought I was going to do 12 years from now. And then Wicked came like anything else. I had an agent, and I got an audition. I found out that they were totally refreshing the principal company. So they had tons of stringent auditions for the principal roles. And so I went in for Wicked roundabouts like 10 or 11 times within the course of about a month and a half, which is not a lot of material for Boq. It's four pages total to do that 11 times. But because they needed that many people to come and vet you to make sure you were going to be this new principal company that wasn't from the road, it wasn't from the West End. I'm not even sure it existed yet, actually, in the West End. Maybe it did. But they were a totally new company, which was exciting because it was only four years into the run of the show. So it was like being in Hamilton now. It's still cool. It's still exciting. And P.S., like, being in Wicked now is still cool. How crazy is that? And so that took a long time. And then I got a phone call from the casting director the night before my agent got the phone call from the cast director because we had had such a symbiotic relationship throughout that audition process. He took me through it. He was the one that assured me, like, it'll be worth it if it works out. And he was great. Craig Burns, I'll name him right here. He's the greatest. He works at Telsey. He called me the night before and he said, we just finished slotting the show because they were going to do The Road. And I said, I didn't know what to say. I was like, I don't know why you're calling me. He's like, well, he was like, I can't officially tell you anything. And I was like, well, just to let you know, if you told me anything, the only people that I would tell would be my mom and my dad and my brother. And he goes, all right. There's a long pause. He goes, well, then you can tell your mom, dad, your brother you're going to be playing Boq in Wicked on Broadway. And I like probably leapt through my ceiling. I was so excited and, again, didn't think this was going to happen for like another decade. So for it to happen twice in the same six-month period was mind-blowing. And then, you know, the next thought is, wow, I'm in a show that's never going to close. Because to go from a show that closes in one night to going to a show that is never going to close is excellent on so many levels.

[24:16] Alan Seales: And you were in it for two years.

[24:18] Alex Brightman: Two years, pretty much on the nose.

[24:19] Alan Seales: Two full years, yeah. November 4th to November 1st, 08 to 10.

[24:23] Alex Brightman: Wow, yeah, that's right.

[24:24] Alan Seales: Yeah, so you were in it for two solid years, and you left in 10. And the next Broadway credit was Big Fish in 2013.

[24:31] Alex Brightman: Is that right?

[24:32] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[24:32] Alex Brightman: Yeah, that's right.

[24:34] Alan Seales: This is a good lesson for people that are listening that are like, you know, aspiring, you know, actors, or I like to say actors, because if you're an aspiring actor and you've acted, you're an actor.

[24:42] Alex Brightman: Yes.

[24:44] Alan Seales: This is how it works. You're a reliable cast member for two years on a big Broadway show with a big Broadway credit, and then three years go by.

[24:53] Alex Brightman: And were you just doing survival jobs? What were you doing?

[24:55] Alex Brightman: Some, yeah. I was doing some survival jobs. I went out of town with a co. I had saved enough money to like comfortably do a couple gigs for less money that I really wanted to do. So I went back home to California, and I did The Secret Garden, which was such a blast. I ended up doing a show at the Philadelphia Theater Company called Stars of David. I can't ever say it without, literally, I can't say it without laughing. Only because it sounds like an ice show. Stars of David. We're just dancing menorahs. But did that with like Brad Oscar and Donna Bovino. It was like an amazing cast. Did a one-man show at the Hub Theater in Fairfax, Virginia called How I Paid for College, written by Mark Aceto, who wrote the novel of the same name. Got to do a lot of cool creative stuff after doing a very commercial show, which was really soul-fulfilling. And during Stars of David, I was busing back and forth as we had opened to audition for Big Fish. Never thinking that was going to be the next thing, because it's a Susan Stroman show, and I am not a dancer. And I think of her as the dancer's director, because of everything she's ever done. And it turned out they needed somebody who could kind of move and cover Bobby Steggert, and it worked out. So I did that.

[26:11] Alan Seales: Yeah, so that was another short-lived show.

[26:13] Alex Brightman: Three months.

[26:14] Alan Seales: Three months. I was talking with Kirsten Scott about this, too.

[26:16] Alex Brightman: Oh, I love Kirsten Scott.

[26:18] Alan Seales: She said she took it very personally.

[26:24] Alex Brightman: Because there was other things going on in her life, and I will say this because she talked about it on the podcast.

[26:28] Alan Seales: Yeah, totally.

[26:29] Alex Brightman: But yeah, so there was other stuff going on in her life, and so it was kind of like a new family for her that was filling in a void at the time.

[26:35] Alex Brightman: I can sympathize with that a thousand percent.

[26:37] Alan Seales: Yeah?

[26:38] Alex Brightman: Yes. Big Fish was the first time I took an original show anywhere. So you have your stamp on something, something that means a lot to you. Took it out of town to really fun, amazing audiences and reviews. Came back to Broadway, and it just couldn't get people to see the show if you begged them. And when people saw it, a lot of people loved it. But it was about that getting people in the seats thing. And again, reviews, they mean something. And so people were a little turned off by the reviews and whatever. But what's interesting is we got our closing notice on a Wednesday, I believe. And then the next day or three days later, I broke my ankle in the show. I pulled two bones apart in my ankle on my right foot and found out the next day that it was going to take around eight weeks at minimum to fix, and we were closing in six. So I found out I was not going to finish my original Broadway company. And then in that time, in those six weeks, I found out that my girlfriend at the time didn't want to be in the relationship we were in for five years, and she broke up with me and left the house. And I had to find a new apartment with a broken leg. So all of that.

[27:47] Alan Seales: And that was around.

[27:48] Alex Brightman: And that was around the holidays. So it was very personal because I actually the good news about that, actually, is that I got to go to the theater, not being a part of the show anymore, necessarily, but still being part of the family. And I had them to lean on to, which was brilliant. And we are very good friends because of a lot of that. We really bonded. And I still have a text thread with a lot of the boys and Susan Stroman. But that really, truly got me through a very strange and painful time in my life. But it helped. And that's one of those things where theater is very therapeutic because you do get to exercise those demons live.

[28:24] Alan Seales: Right, right.

[28:26] Alex Brightman: Oh, what was that? I think it was Stephanie J. Block. I heard her talking on Josh Layman's podcast. And she's a fan of bringing herself to the stage.

[28:34] Alan Seales: I agree.

[28:35] Alex Brightman: Good day or bad day or whatever. Like it because it changes things.

[28:39] Alex Brightman: I completely agree. My thing is I do. I totally get don't bring your baggage through the door with you. But my caveat to that is I think bring some baggage through the door with you because that's what makes you human and makes you a three dimensional performer. If you are feeling like shit and you pretend not to on stage, nothing will stink more because it's just going to be fake. We've all seen people smile through the bad times. And that's the worst time they've ever smiled. So why not be a little bit? You can be aggressively happy. You don't have to be the half you like that. Beetlejuice is the perfect example. And Dewey Finn also was a great example. It was like I could go on stage and exercise out some of these demons nightly. And no one needed to be the wiser. It all culminates in a similar type of performance, which is just energy. And I think when people try to push it down, it's that's when it's going to sneak up on you at the worst possible moments. A big note, you know, we're not landing a joke, right? Because you're thinking about it. Rather than just accepting that you might be a little sad today or if my depression kicks up or my anxiety kicks up, let it become friends with it. Bill Hader just did this video on that about like just treating it like a friend and being like, I know you're here. I know you're not going anywhere. So let's get to know each other a little bit.

[30:02] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[30:03] Alex Brightman: Rather than going, get out of here. I talked to Bill about the exact same thing. That was the first time that he put some of me into perspective.

[30:09] Alan Seales: Yeah, I totally get that. Because I have OCPD, obsessive compulsive personality disorder.

[30:13] Alex Brightman: What's that?

[30:14] Alan Seales: It's not OCD where you have to like flick on lights and turn it off. OCPD is basically is like you can't see the forest through the trees. I hyper focus on small details sometimes.

[30:21] Alex Brightman: Got it.

[30:24] Alan Seales: And instead of trying to make that go away, like we were talking about his anxiety.

[30:29] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[30:30] Alan Seales: And it's so funny you brought that up. Yeah, his anxiety. He's like the best thing he could have done. He was saying was not push it away, not ignore it. Just say, okay, acknowledge it. It's here now.

[30:39] Alex Brightman: Yeah, play with it.

[30:41] Alan Seales: It's rough like a dog.

[30:42] Alex Brightman: I'd be like, it's good. I see you.

[30:44] Alan Seales: Yeah. So now taking that knowledge. And I mean, that was a while ago. And taking that knowledge and applying it to, you know, a while of therapy now for myself.

[30:53] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[30:54] Alan Seales: It's turned into something like now I can use it to be really productive.

[30:57] Alex Brightman: You can use it. It's what you can weaponize your anxiety. I think that's a thing I do a lot. And I try to teach people that actually you can change, you know, like a robot in a movie has like red eyes. And all of a sudden the good guy figures out if it turns the switch and the robot now works for him.

[31:13] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[31:14] Alex Brightman: That's the thing. And the eyes turn color. All of a sudden he's a good robot fighting the bad guys. That's what I think anxiety can be treated like. Now, again, there are various forms of it. So I am no doctor. I want to make doubles where people don't just go, I don't need my pills because I take pills.

[31:29] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[31:30] Alex Brightman: And I need them. And I think people do need varying degrees of help. But I do think it's helpful to know, especially with actors, because there's a lot of anxiety around actors and a lot of depression that doesn't get talked about. It is a thing you can weaponize if you're careful and you're considerate. And it's a process, but it works when it works.

[31:48] Alan Seales: Do you have anxiety on stage still?

[31:51] Alex Brightman: I don't have anxiety on stage about what I'm doing on stage. Like I don't have like what people would classify as like stage fright, which I don't think is a real thing. I think that I have anxiety. I have a very high standard of performance for me and others. So if other people, and I'm including myself, if I find that I'm adjudicating myself and I'm going, I'm actually giving kind of a B plus performance when I could be giving an A, I feel that. I don't necessarily let it out on stage, but off stage I'll be like, what am I doing? How can I? And it's not a good feeling when you're not thinking you're nailing it. Although most people when they see a Stephanie J. Block or a Cynthia Erivo or me, three very similar people, three good examples. But like, you know, somebody who's working at the top of their game as hard as they can, even their B minus performance probably looks like an A plus, but that doesn't matter to me. I am very aware. I think that there are 1500 me's in the audience who have seen the show last night and the one that was really good. So if I don't do that one again tonight, I take it out of myself a little bit. I'm more lenient than I've ever been on myself recently because it helps not to take things too seriously. And it really does help my general anxiety to just, okay, it didn't go well, but it will next time.

[33:14] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[33:14] Alex Brightman: Yeah, I try to push forward through a lot of that. And actually having kids helped me with a lot of it.

[33:20] Alan Seales: Oh, good.

[33:21] Alex Brightman: I've got two, I've got a three year old and a four and a half year old. And reading up, like, you know, the older one hits the younger one and the younger one throws himself down and has tantrums in it. And, you know, like my wife and I read up on this and they're like, their brain centers just don't, they haven't developed, they haven't matured enough to be able to have that impulse control. To not just be like, mine, you know, take it. And just to be able in those moments, instead of being like, no, no, no, don't do that. I just calmly, I'm like, okay, acknowledge it.

[34:04] Alan Seales: Frustrated.

[34:05] Alex Brightman: Okay, now let's talk about moving past it. Or just, you know, not ignoring it for the sake of making it go away, but ignoring it because it's not worth acknowledging to them.

[34:11] Alan Seales: I love that.

[34:12] Alex Brightman: And so that behavior repeatedly now has made its way into my adult life.

[34:16] Alan Seales: Because it's just been, it is practice.

[34:18] Alex Brightman: It is.

[34:19] Alan Seales: It is totally practice.

[34:19] Alex Brightman: For sure, it's a muscle to flex.

[34:19] Alan Seales: Not that it's anything similar, because I do not like when people make this comparison.

[34:23] Alex Brightman: But I just got a dog.

[34:24] Alan Seales: And I know, I, again, I know people are like, oh, I understand what it's like to be a parent. I got a dog. It's like, nope. I'm very aware it's different things.

[34:30] Alex Brightman: But I did get a dog. And that idea of not yelling, no at your dog, or not pulling him. And the other thing works. But you, as a performer, I think, with kids and a dog, you're not reprimanding, whatever way you're reprimanding. You're not doing it for them. You're doing it so you look like a good owner for others. And I find that to be the anxiety. Like, we pull our dog to show the other person that has a dog, look, I'm being a good owner. Rather than doing the thing that actually works for the dog. Because who's this other person? We're about to walk away from them. But this dog's going to have to live with me for the next six blocks. And I just pulled him. So that's good to know. But it's helpful. Because once you do the other thing, it helps. And that's, again, a microcosm for performing and rehearsing with others. And working with other actors that might be temperamental. It definitely helps to stretch that muscle. To be like, there are better ways to do the things we've been doing things for thousands of years. We're just so used to the other thing.

[34:54] Alan Seales: Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, now you're talking about the age of social media and whatnot.

[35:39] Alex Brightman: Yeah, for sure I am.

[35:42] Alan Seales: Definitely, always.

[35:44] Alex Brightman: Parent shaming is real.

[35:45] Alan Seales: I'm sure.

[35:46] Alex Brightman: It's horrible.

[35:49] Alan Seales: That's where she gets her anxiety from.

[35:51] Alex Brightman: It's like, are people going to think I'm a bad mother? Do I think I'm a bad mother? And I tell her a lot, even though I think it all the time. I look at her and I'm like, I enjoy watching you with the kids, right? I enjoy seeing you on stage. And I'm like, damn, Alex, he is crushing it tonight. Whatever it is.

[36:04] Alex Brightman: Nice thought to have.

[36:06] Alan Seales: You might not think you're good enough. She might not think she's good enough. Whoever it is. And it's that kind of constant reminder. But the difference being that the New York Times doesn't review my wife's motherly performance.

[36:18] Alex Brightman: That's right.

[36:20] Alan Seales: Well, please, we're going to get started on that. It's like I don't ever read reviews, one, of anything almost. I have no interest because I don't really... Respect is the wrong word. But I think it's a strange thing that we've agreed on that somebody, one person, has one chance to see one show on one night in one state of mind. And then gets to use all of that to make a judgment on a show that has taken nine years to develop. It just doesn't... The math of that doesn't work to me. And when I see reviews that are scathing and kind of mean, I go, this is like you're doubling down on something that already doesn't make sense. And I just don't find it to be appealing. But sometimes people read reviews and they go, and they go, well, now I don't want to see it. But I do think it's going away. I think that because there are so many people, I mean like one, meaning like a New York Times reviewer.

[37:17] Alan Seales: Right, right.

[37:18] Alex Brightman: I think the smart thing would be, and I think I'm not revolutionary for thinking this, but I think that it would be cool if they had a pool of people, 10 people from the New York Times of all shapes and sizes and backgrounds, see the show on the same night or many different nights over the course of a week. And then they all write something and you kind of just synthesize their thoughts. Then I think you're going to get a fairer review. And I also think you're going to hear something that many reviewers don't do, which is tell you that if they liked it or not. So many reviews I find that I do read, you know, the ones that have like a friend show that opened. I just, by the end of it, I go, this reviewer just spent the whole time going, here's what I understood about the show that you probably didn't. But no point that he went, I liked it or I didn't. You have no feel.

[38:06] Alan Seales: Right.

[38:06] Alex Brightman: So you get to kind of go, it was pretentious, I guess. I don't know if he liked it or not, but I know that this guy's pretentious.

[38:12] Alan Seales: How does Rotten Tomatoes work?

[38:14] Alex Brightman: Rotten Tomatoes is, I think, one of those like that. I think it's like a bunch of like, it's a big...

[38:19] Alan Seales: So what if you start Rotten Grapes?

[38:22] Alex Brightman: Rotten Grapes.

[38:22] Alan Seales: Rotten Grapes, all about, you know, the general consensus.

[38:26] Alex Brightman: I'm texting my trademark guy. I'm doing it. You don't get to have it.

[38:28] Alan Seales: All right, go for it.

[38:30] Alex Brightman: There must be a site like that.

[38:32] Alan Seales: I mean, I think there must be something like that, but maybe nothing that's super mainstream just yet.

[38:37] Alex Brightman: I wonder if it's a generational thing because Broadway tickets are more expensive.

[38:41] Alan Seales: They are.

[38:41] Alex Brightman: The most expensive, obviously. So the people who have the more disposable income are still the people who read the New York Times.

[38:50] Alan Seales: You're totally right.

[38:51] Alex Brightman: You're right. Well, let's change that.

[38:53] Alan Seales: Yeah, I think we should.

[38:54] Alex Brightman: It is changing, actually. I think you're right. Because what was it? Oh, it's Ken Davenport. I was talking with him. He was saying that now we're 23, 24 something years after Beauty and the Beast first premiered.

[39:10] Alan Seales: Wow.

[39:11] Alex Brightman: So that was Disney Theatricals first. Now everyone who saw that as a five, six, seven-year-old is now like 30 plus.

[39:18] Alan Seales: Totally.

[39:19] Alex Brightman: And starting to have disposable income, starting to produce, starting to do new things on Broadway.

[39:23] Alan Seales: I do find that the more I work on stuff in readings and in workshops and even one-day things, a lot of the producers are, for lack of a better word, more creative. They're more creative. Rather than just the money, they are more creative, and they're more involved and invested and younger.

[39:36] Alex Brightman: I just want to only shout out one by name because I just think he's one of the most clever guys out there, which is John Johnson, who works at Joey Parnes. I think they've produced some of the cool, most unsuspecting hits. Gentleman's Guide being the most unsuspecting. Who thought this was going to be a good thing to bring to Broadway? They did, and it worked and won the Tony. That's insane. I mean, any other generation of producer, they'd be like, where does this make money? And how do we market this? And they went, that's not how they think. There are more producers now ever going, not will this work, but how can we make this work? And I think that's brilliant. I like that way of thinking rather than what are the numbers it might bring in versus the smarter, which is like, how do we bring these numbers in? How can we be creative? And I think it takes that generational thing because I think that there are people, no offense, that don't know how to use a computer or don't know how to use Twitter. And that's important now.

[41:03] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah.

[41:04] Alex Brightman: You have to be able to read the pulse.

[41:06] Alan Seales: You have to.

[41:08] Alex Brightman: By the way, that's coming from somebody who really likes social media with a lowercase L. I like it. I think it is abused quite often, but I do like it. But I do think more people need to be informed about what is going on, what are the tastes of audiences. And when you do read them right, you get something like Six, a musical that's coming in at the perfect moment. And I think that musical is going to crush.

[41:14] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah, everything.

[41:15] Alex Brightman: Not just because it's good, because it is, but because it's perfect timing for it and it's being perfectly marketed. And I don't know a thing about it until I did. And the minute I saw it, I was like, I have to see this.

[41:27] Alan Seales: I was going to say, like, not remakes, not adaptations. And so, like, Beetlejuice is not either.

[41:33] Alex Brightman: That's a stage adaptation of a musical.

[41:35] Alan Seales: Yeah, but it's also what we're doing.

[41:36] Alex Brightman: It's so original, though.

[41:37] Alan Seales: Yeah, what we're doing at Beetlejuice that I think a lot of people were hesitant at the top to, like, go see is that they thought, like everybody, like me, when I first heard it was happening before I was cast, I was like, great, here we go. Another carbon copy of a movie on stage with special effects that are going to wow you in a book that's going to be lame and music that's going to not drive the plot forward. Like a lot of adaptations that are happening or have happened or closed or whatever. Just closed.

[42:00] Alex Brightman: Yeah, but like, I mean, but it's gone on for years at this point. And it's almost nobody's fault, except everybody's fault that was involved. And nobody went, hey, what if we did something more fun? What the guys at Beetlejuice decided to do is to tell a story and to rewrite it and to adapt it. And I think a true good adaptation has a point of view that the movie didn't have or the book didn't have. It has a take on what's going on now. And that's what our show does incredibly, I think. It really caters to a now audience. It feels timeless because it is done in an old musical theater way. But we, our audiences are the proof is that we have people in our audiences that have never seen a Broadway show before in their life and they're 30. Or we have dads coming up to the stage door going, I don't even like theater, more or less musical theater, but I'm obsessed with this musical. And this is not me trying to sell anybody on the show. This is all what's going on. But it's because we did the thing. For lack, I mean, for really, if you look at it, if you strip everything away from Beetlejuice, we're sort of an original musical. We're telling a different story. We're using the characters, but we aren't really telling the same story the movie did.

[43:11] Alan Seales: Well, it's focused on Lydia, not the main cast.

[43:12] Alex Brightman: Way more, yeah. And it's, and the characters are different and their objectives are different. And these storylines don't really mix the way they do in the movie. And I think for better.

[43:20] Alan Seales: Oh, I totally agree.

[43:21] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[43:22] Alan Seales: And it's a real, it's a, it's a fully fledged, fleshed out book musical with heart. And I don't, I would never say that if I didn't feel that way about it.

[43:34] Alex Brightman: Well, I think it has to feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[43:40] Alan Seales: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[43:50] Alex Brightman: Oh yeah.

[43:51] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[43:51] Alex Brightman: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what I think turned the key in the right direction. It was like, oh, this is what's make, this is what makes it wicked. This is what makes it, you know, something that is a bit more timeless because it is a story that you can really latch onto.

[44:04] Alan Seales: Well, it's, it's gotta be, it's gotta feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[44:10] Alex Brightman: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[44:20] Alan Seales: Oh yeah.

[44:21] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[44:21] Alan Seales: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what I think turned the key in the right direction. It was like, oh, this is what's make, this is what makes it wicked. This is what makes it, you know, something that is a bit more timeless because it is a story that you can really latch onto.

[44:40] Alan Seales: Well, I totally agree.

[44:41] Alex Brightman: And it's a real, it's a, it's a fully fledged, fleshed out book musical with heart. And I don't, I would never say that if I didn't feel that way about it.

[44:52] Alan Seales: Well, I think it has to feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[44:57] Alex Brightman: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[45:07] Alan Seales: Oh yeah.

[45:08] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[45:08] Alan Seales: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what I think turned the key in the right direction. It was like, oh, this is what's make, this is what makes it wicked. This is what makes it, you know, something that is a bit more timeless because it is a story that you can really latch onto.

[46:07] Alan Seales: Well, I totally agree.

[46:08] Alex Brightman: And it's a real, it's a, it's a fully fledged, fleshed out book musical with heart. And I don't, I would never say that if I didn't feel that way about it.

[46:20] Alan Seales: Well, I think it has to feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[46:25] Alex Brightman: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[46:35] Alan Seales: Oh yeah.

[46:36] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[46:36] Alan Seales: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what I think turned the key in the right direction. It was like, oh, this is what's make, this is what makes it wicked. This is what makes it, you know, something that is a bit more timeless because it is a story that you can really latch onto.

[46:40] Alan Seales: Well, I totally agree.

[46:41] Alex Brightman: And it's a real, it's a, it's a fully fledged, fleshed out book musical with heart. And I don't, I would never say that if I didn't feel that way about it.

[46:52] Alan Seales: Well, I think it has to feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[46:57] Alex Brightman: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[47:07] Alan Seales: Oh yeah.

[47:08] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[47:08] Alan Seales: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what I think turned the key in the right direction. It was like, oh, this is what's make, this is what makes it wicked. This is what makes it, you know, something that is a bit more timeless because it is a story that you can really latch onto.

[47:20] Alan Seales: Well, I totally agree.

[47:21] Alex Brightman: And it's a real, it's a, it's a fully fledged, fleshed out book musical with heart. And I don't, I would never say that if I didn't feel that way about it.

[47:32] Alan Seales: Well, I think it has to feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[47:37] Alex Brightman: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[47:47] Alan Seales: Oh yeah.

[47:48] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[47:48] Alan Seales: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what I think turned the key in the right direction. It was like, oh, this is what's make, this is what makes it wicked. This is what makes it, you know, something that is a bit more timeless because it is a story that you can really latch onto.

[48:00] Alan Seales: Well, I totally agree.

[48:01] Alex Brightman: And it's a real, it's a, it's a fully fledged, fleshed out book musical with heart. And I don't, I would never say that if I didn't feel that way about it.

[48:12] Alan Seales: Well, I think it has to feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[48:17] Alex Brightman: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[48:27] Alan Seales: Oh yeah.

[48:28] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[48:28] Alan Seales: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what I think turned the key in the right direction. It was like, oh, this is what's make, this is what makes it wicked. This is what makes it, you know, something that is a bit more timeless because it is a story that you can really latch onto.

[48:40] Alan Seales: Well, I totally agree.

[48:41] Alex Brightman: And it's a real, it's a, it's a fully fledged, fleshed out book musical with heart. And I don't, I would never say that if I didn't feel that way about it.

[48:52] Alan Seales: Well, I think it has to feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[48:57] Alex Brightman: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[49:07] Alan Seales: Oh yeah.

[49:08] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[49:08] Alan Seales: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what I think turned the key in the right direction. It was like, oh, this is what's make, this is what makes it wicked. This is what makes it, you know, something that is a bit more timeless because it is a story that you can really latch onto.

[49:20] Alan Seales: Well, I totally agree.

[49:21] Alex Brightman: And it's a real, it's a, it's a fully fledged, fleshed out book musical with heart. And I don't, I would never say that if I didn't feel that way about it.

[49:32] Alan Seales: Well, I think it has to feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[49:37] Alex Brightman: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[49:47] Alan Seales: Oh yeah.

[49:48] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[49:48] Alan Seales: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what I think turned the key in the right direction. It was like, oh, this is what's make, this is what makes it wicked. This is what makes it, you know, something that is a bit more timeless because it is a story that you can really latch onto.

[50:00] Alan Seales: Well, I totally agree.

[50:01] Alex Brightman: And it's a real, it's a, it's a fully fledged, fleshed out book musical with heart. And I don't, I would never say that if I didn't feel that way about it.

[50:12] Alan Seales: Well, I think it has to feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[50:17] Alex Brightman: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[50:27] Alan Seales: Oh yeah.

[50:28] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[50:28] Alan Seales: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what I think turned the key in the right direction. It was like, oh, this is what's make, this is what makes it wicked. This is what makes it, you know, something that is a bit more timeless because it is a story that you can really latch onto.

[50:40] Alan Seales: Well, I totally agree.

[50:41] Alex Brightman: And it's a real, it's a, it's a fully fledged, fleshed out book musical with heart. And I don't, I would never say that if I didn't feel that way about it.

[50:52] Alan Seales: Well, I think it has to feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[50:57] Alex Brightman: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[51:07] Alan Seales: Oh yeah.

[51:08] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[51:08] Alan Seales: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what I think turned the key in the right direction. It was like, oh, this is what's make, this is what makes it wicked. This is what makes it, you know, something that is a bit more timeless because it is a story that you can really latch onto.

[51:20] Alan Seales: Well, I totally agree.

[51:21] Alex Brightman: And it's a real, it's a, it's a fully fledged, fleshed out book musical with heart. And I don't, I would never say that if I didn't feel that way about it.

[51:32] Alan Seales: Well, I think it has to feel real while still being in an imaginary land.

[51:37] Alex Brightman: It absolutely has to be grounded in some type of reality. It doesn't have to be this reality, but it has to be grounded in a reality with rules. Because there's actual, there's real illusions in the show.

[51:47] Alan Seales: Oh yeah.

[51:48] Alex Brightman: Yeah.

[51:48] Alan Seales: There's actual, actual illusions and accompanied with, with amazing puppetry. Yes. And the thing we figured out in DC, which we had a lot of puppetry, a lot of illusion, a lot of great magic and a lot of hilarity, a lot of great filthy humor and it worked. But what we were missing was this beating heart thing. And we figured that out for New York. And that's what