This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Robert Bannon: Are you ready? It's The Roundtable with me, Robert Bannon.

[0:13] Robert Bannon: Welcome to The Roundtable, everybody. My name is Robert Bannon, and you're listening to us on Broadway World or over here on the Broadway Podcast Network, iHeart, and Spotify. Our next guest, you know, people say I'm busy. I'm not anywhere as busy as our next guest. He is a professor. He is an author. He is a motivational speaker. He has a podcast. He has a blog. He has a rapper. He has books out. I'm exhausted just talking and thinking about what our next guest does. You know, a year ago, I moved to Detroit, Michigan, and I run an English department in an Alternative High School out here in Detroit, and Detroit, one of the most segregated cities in the entire country and also adverse with poverty, and I have been trying all year and the best way to connect to students who grew up with different experiences than I do, and we owe it to the people of this country to stand up together so all people are free and equal and have the same opportunities.

So when I read this next book and I see what our next guest is doing, I was always inspired. So we're not always about messy, good, Broadway, fun, entertainment times. Sometimes we got to pull up to the dinner table and have a real conversation. Dr. Omékongo is here, and I'm so excited that you're here. Welcome to the show.

[1:19] Omékongo Dibinga: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[1:24] Robert Bannon: Well, congratulations. I mean it. You do a little bit of everything.

[1:29] Omékongo Dibinga: Well, they say when you love what you do, it doesn't feel like work, you know. So, you know, my organization is called Upstander International. We talk about being an upstander, not a bystander. So everything that I do, I'm just asking myself, is it something that's helping me stand up for others? So that might take the form of me being a professor. It might take the form of me making an album or writing a book, but as long as it's helping other people amplify their voices and working to help us find common ground, it's all the same to me.

[1:57] Robert Bannon: I think it's amazing and wonderful, your work on your own. I mean, you have over a million views from CNN. You've won awards, different awards. People have asked you to speak all around the world, literally. When did you realize that you needed to be of service? When was that calling for you?

[2:12] Omékongo Dibinga: Well, I realized at a young age, probably like around middle school, that I needed to be the type of person for others that I needed. Growing up in Boston, Massachusetts, you know, we were beaten up and bullied a lot because of our names, even though I'm born and raised in the States. We got so much bullying being of Congolese origin. And so, and then we also didn't grow up with a lot of money. So they would call us names at school, throw rocks at us. Even we got it for some of our teachers. That led me, you know, my parents were teaching us about the importance of understanding our history. But then when I discovered the work of Dr. Maya Angelou and Dr. Nikki Giovanni, it really helped inspire me.

I started memorizing their poetry and sharing them places. And the way it uplifted me, it led me in middle school to start writing poetry, high school to start sharing that with others. And the more I shared it in the communities, the less the bullying stopped. And I realized at a young age that I could be a bridge builder, and that led me down this path.

[3:11] Robert Bannon: And what does it mean to be a trilingual? What are the trilingual poems? Like what are the three?

[3:15] Omékongo Dibinga: Yeah. So I have seven or eight albums out and a book of poetry as well. And I do poetry in English, French, and Swahili. So my parents being Congolese, you know, those are the official languages. Somebody, you know, French being the official language of the former Belgian colony. And then, you know, Swahili is one of the languages that I've spoken there. So I grew up familiar with those languages. And so when I started doing the poetry, I realized I can communicate more of an international audience if I put in some translations.

[3:40] Robert Bannon: Well, while we're talking, we're going to follow The Doctor on Instagram. You can go, the links and everything are below. And you can also go to his website to find out more information, see examples of his poetry and all of the work. His book, his newest, there's a bunch of books, a bunch of books. His newest book, Lies About Black People, is out, How to Combat Racist Stereotypes and Why It Happens. Michael Eric Dyson, I mean, is pretty highfalutin forward there from a pretty, pretty amazing forward. The book is available wherever books are sold. So you make sure you can pick that up as well. And we'll get into that in a moment. I really love the idea that you use the different arts because it reaches a whole different audience sometimes than just doing a lecture or something that's university bound or educationally bound. How do you marry the scholarly part of your life and the academia part with trying to get the word out to people who maybe that doesn't resonate with?

[4:27] Omékongo Dibinga: Yeah. And also, thanks for sharing the Instagram. Also, youtube.com slash omekungo, please check me out there. So for me, I was trained by one of the greatest motivational speakers ever, Les Brown. And one of the things that Les Brown used to say, always said is, don't let your message get in, don't let, less of me, more of we. And what he meant by that is that you always have to be mindful of the audience. He said, don't let what you want to say get caught up or misunderstood from what the audience needs to hear. So you talked about the school that you run with the English department. If I'm speaking in that type of audience, they may not want a three-hour PowerPoint lecture from the class.

So I can put the same message in a three-minute rap. You have to be able to communicate with the people in the way that they receive the message. So I'm like, yeah, OK, I have a PhD. I studied at Harvard and Princeton and all of that. But if I'm speaking, I may be speaking in a prison doing the work, they don't care. You know, I may be speaking at a community center, they don't care. I may be speaking over in a refugee camp, literally like I have in places like Rwanda or Congo, you have to be able to meet people where they are. So that's why I've been able to do this in different ways, because at the end of the day, what matters is communicating the message with the people in front of you. And that's what I focus on.

[5:56] Robert Bannon: Yes, he really did. He really has all of those degrees, Harvard and Princeton and all. And what is your doctorate in law? Is it law?

[6:03] Omékongo Dibinga: So I did my undergrad at Georgetown. I did my master's at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy. And I have a PhD from University of Maryland in international education policy. I think you'll like this. My PhD is on Jay-Z.

[6:17] Robert Bannon: I was going to ask you, your dissertation was on Jay-Z. How long was it? And how did you find all the... I have two master's degrees and I fought hard to find resource. Oh God, please don't make me ever resource and cite anything ever again. How did you do a whole dissertation on Jay-Z?

[6:35] Omékongo Dibinga: Well, it's over 200 pages and Jay-Z was somebody I wasn't even a fan of, because I felt like I was going into schools and telling kids not to do the stuff he was rapping about, like don't sell drugs and so on and so forth. Then I heard one line from the Black album and it just started to change my perspective on him. And I realized my perspective on him was wrong. And so my dissertation is called, and I'd love to send it to you, it's called The Life and Rhymes of Jay-Z, Historical Biography. So it's really a study of Black youth, post-civil rights movement to the election of the first Black president. And I'm using a hip hop lens telling that story through one person, Jay-Z, a man who was born on the same day Black Panther leader, Fred Hampton, was assassinated. To be born in that moment, to go up to the election of the first Black president, it's an incredible story that we ignore at our own expense. And I teach a class on him at American University.

[7:27] Robert Bannon: I want to take the class. Come through, got it. I want to take the class. I love this. I would love to read it and I would love people to find out more information. If this is stuff that moves you, make sure you buy the books. The books are available as well. Do you think writing, see, I have ADD. So am I right? I can't sit down and look at that blinking cursor and editing a book and all of that. How do you work for people who want to write in the art form of writing? Are you a disciplined writer? Is it come in spurts? How does it come to you to write a book?

[8:04] Omékongo Dibinga: It's very interesting. My writing as an artist is different than my writing for a book. So one thing I learned from working with Dr. Dyson was that you have to, when you're writing, you have to do it every day. And some people need to block out four or five hours. He's like, nah, even if it's 15 minutes, you know, you have to do something on it every day to keep the progress. And so as I'm working on that, I'm working on a new book right now called Trigger Words, which has looked at looking at how people use terms like CRT and woke to keep us divided and how we can bring ourselves together. You know, so I'm in the research mode, starting writing the chapters, but that's how I'm disciplined. So it could be 30 minutes, an hour.

I try to do 30 minutes minimum, anywhere between 30 minutes and two hours a day to stay consistent. When I'm writing my poetry or my hip hop, I'll think about a poem or a rap for a very long time. But this is the truth, Robert. If I can't write it in less than an hour, I don't do it. So all of my albums, all of my songs, all of my poetry, if you've ever seen any of them, even like some of the longer five-minute ones, I've usually written in less than in an hour or less, because I have to feel the vibe, like the energy has to hit me in the right spot. And I'll sit on something for years until it's time to write it.

[9:19] Robert Bannon: Until it's the right time. That's real artist work right there. All right. I'm obsessed with this whole thing, everything going on here. This is where it's at. So when I grew up in New Jersey, and you grew up in Boston, and in a lot of ways, they're similar East Coast, tough kind of gritty areas. I was right outside of New York City. And then a year ago, I moved to Detroit. I got married to my husband, who was a man of color, grew up gay, Black, Detroiter. And his experiences and my experiences based on race and where I grew up and economics, et cetera, family, vastly different. And we all are trying to communicate and come together as a society. We are very divided. There's a lot of crazy, crazy stuff going on.

I see on your Instagram, and you're out here fighting the fight for us as a country, literally. It's crazy every day. So what is your message for the average citizen of this country right now? And what do you wish we knew or could understand about what's going on in the world?

[10:18] Omékongo Dibinga: If people could just, you talk about your partner. I just realized that when you describe you and your husband and the differences, but there's something that brought you together. You found the common ground. You could have come from your background. He could have come from his background and have no reason to connect. Sexual orientation isn't enough to bring people together, but you came together, and now you're a unit. And that's what I'm trying to get people to see is that, fine, we may have different politics, different sexual orientation, different religions, but at the end of the day, we all laugh in the same language. We all cry in the same language. If we can get each other to understand the basic humanity that each person deserves, we can start making progress.

I saw this video that really just really hurt me so bad, and I'm sure you've seen a video like this before, where people have a kid be an experiment where someone will grab and snatch the kid in broad daylight to see if anybody will do something. I recently saw one of those studies again, and the majority of the people who were in these videos did nothing when a kid got snatched up, right? So the inability, you don't even have to have your own kids. The inability for us to be able to see a child as our own, to feel the need to protect that individual. And I can run down the list, whether we're talking about things going on in Sudan, in Congo, there's big conversations about Gaza and the like, or even things going on in the country now with these immigration raids.

Our inability to see ourselves in the other person is why hate persists. The inability to see our child, our wife, our grandfather in the other person, because they may look different, have different hair, that's why these problems persist. And so that's what I'm trying to do, working to get us to find common ground in uncommon times so we can build a community where everybody can be celebrated and not tolerated.

[12:17] Robert Bannon: I can't say better than that. I've seen it. When I was in New Jersey, my student population was all Hispanic, and they were first generation Americans, and their parents, many of them came here as undocumented people who did not feel safe to come to back to school night, who had to find work to try to pay for their family so their kids could go to school. The thought of these dreamers, these kids that may have not been born here, but were brought here at one years old, the way that we've treated them as a country is beyond. But we've been treating people in this country that way from its inception. It's just we don't always talk about it when it comes to people of color and people that are non in power. So what can we do? What does the average person do now, doctor, about trying to be a part of the solution instead of the problem?

[13:05] Omékongo Dibinga: Well, first thing we have to do is educate ourselves, because I don't care how passionate you are. If you don't have the knowledge to get out there and do the work, you're going to be more of a problem than a solution. So I'm a big fan of acronyms. And one of them is that I love to give is LEAD. And the first thing, the L in LEAD stands for listen. We have two ears and one mouth. We have to use them in proportion. Just commit to do more listening than you do talking. Sit down and ask people what's going on, as opposed to trying to tell them based on what you saw on some random network or some random person who's very ignorant but has 2 million followers. So you think that they need to be listened to.

Just listen. Hear people's stories. The second step is E is educate. You've got to educate yourself on the issues. You've got to learn to be a critical thinker. Read different sources. Books are still important, right? Listening to important podcasts, YouTubers who have knowledge to educate yourself. Then you got to advocate. Get out there and fight for something. There's lots of ways to fight. Everybody doesn't have to be on the front lines. Some are going to be front liners. Some people are going to make phone calls. Some people are going to, if we're talking immigration, some are going to show up at an immigration hearing and be an advocate. Some people are going to be the social media people who share sources of information.

And then you just got to decide. You got to understand that deciding not to decide is a decision. So you have to decide that for the rest of your life, you're going to continue to help other people in some way, shape, or form. What does having hope mean, H-O-P-E? Help one person every day. And Dr. King said everybody can be great because everybody can serve. We don't have to be Dr. King level. There's somebody who needs us right now. I mean, you're innocent young people. I mean, every single day, the hope that you're providing just enough.

[14:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I'm excited to be here to talk about race, the future, and my new book!

[15:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: It's such an important time for these conversations, and I believe we can make a real difference.

[15:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: My journey has been deeply influenced by my experiences in education and activism, and I want to share that with everyone.

[15:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: The intersection of race and leadership is crucial, and I think we need to approach it with authenticity and hope.

[16:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’ve spoken on some of the biggest stages around the world, and I’ve seen how powerful our voices can be when we come together.

[16:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: My work is about empowering individuals to rise and take action in their communities.

[16:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I want to inspire people to not only think about the issues but also to engage with them actively.

[16:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: It’s about creating a movement of change that starts with each of us.

[16:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I believe that through education, we can break down barriers and build bridges.

[16:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: My new book reflects these ideas and aims to provide practical insights for navigating today’s challenges.

[17:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I want readers to feel empowered and ready to take on the world.

[17:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: It’s not just about talking; it’s about taking action and making a difference.

[17:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m here to share my story and hopefully inspire others to share theirs.

[17:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Together, we can create a future that is inclusive and equitable for everyone.

[17:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m really looking forward to diving deeper into these topics today.

[17:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s explore how we can all contribute to this important conversation.

[18:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I think it’s vital that we listen to each other and learn from one another’s experiences.

[18:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: That’s how we grow and evolve as a society.

[18:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m excited to share my insights and hear your thoughts as well.

[18:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: This is a journey we’re all on together, and I believe we can make a real impact.

[18:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s get started and see where this conversation takes us!

[18:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these important issues with you.

[19:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: It’s time for us to rise up and take action.

[19:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m here to help guide that process and share what I’ve learned along the way.

[19:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Together, we can create a brighter future for all.

[19:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m looking forward to sharing more about my book and the ideas within it.

[19:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s dive into the conversation and explore these themes further.

[19:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m ready to engage and inspire action.

[20:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Thank you for having me on this platform to discuss these vital topics.

[20:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I believe that every voice matters, and together we can amplify those voices.

[20:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s make this a meaningful dialogue that leads to real change.

[20:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m excited to see where this conversation goes!

[20:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Thank you for being part of this journey with me.

[20:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s continue to push for progress and understanding.

[21:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m here to share my insights and learn from yours as well.

[21:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Together, we can create a movement that inspires hope and change.

[21:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m looking forward to the discussions ahead.

[21:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s make this a powerful and uplifting experience for everyone involved.

[21:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I appreciate the opportunity to share my message with you all.

[21:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s rise together and make a difference in our communities.

[22:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m ready to engage and inspire action.

[22:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Thank you for having me on this platform to discuss these vital topics.

[22:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I believe that every voice matters, and together we can amplify those voices.

[22:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s make this a meaningful dialogue that leads to real change.

[22:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m excited to see where this conversation goes!

[22:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Thank you for being part of this journey with me.

[23:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s continue to push for progress and understanding.

[23:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m here to share my insights and learn from yours as well.

[23:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Together, we can create a movement that inspires hope and change.

[23:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m looking forward to the discussions ahead.

[23:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s make this a powerful and uplifting experience for everyone involved.

[23:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I appreciate the opportunity to share my message with you all.

[24:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s rise together and make a difference in our communities.

[24:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m ready to engage and inspire action.

[24:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Thank you for having me on this platform to discuss these vital topics.

[24:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I believe that every voice matters, and together we can amplify those voices.

[24:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s make this a meaningful dialogue that leads to real change.

[24:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m excited to see where this conversation goes!

[25:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Thank you for being part of this journey with me.

[25:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s continue to push for progress and understanding.

[25:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m here to share my insights and learn from yours as well.

[25:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Together, we can create a movement that inspires hope and change.

[25:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m looking forward to the discussions ahead.

[25:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s make this a powerful and uplifting experience for everyone involved.

[26:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I appreciate the opportunity to share my message with you all.

[26:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s rise together and make a difference in our communities.

[26:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m ready to engage and inspire action.

[26:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Thank you for having me on this platform to discuss these vital topics.

[26:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I believe that every voice matters, and together we can amplify those voices.

[26:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s make this a meaningful dialogue that leads to real change.

[27:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m excited to see where this conversation goes!

[27:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Thank you for being part of this journey with me.

[27:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s continue to push for progress and understanding.

[27:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m here to share my insights and learn from yours as well.

[27:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Together, we can create a movement that inspires hope and change.

[27:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m looking forward to the discussions ahead.

[28:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s make this a powerful and uplifting experience for everyone involved.

[28:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I appreciate the opportunity to share my message with you all.

[28:26] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s rise together and make a difference in our communities.

[28:36] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m ready to engage and inspire action.

[28:46] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Thank you for having me on this platform to discuss these vital topics.

[28:56] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I believe that every voice matters, and together we can amplify those voices.

[29:06] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: Let’s make this a meaningful dialogue that leads to real change.

[29:16] Dr. Omekongo Dibinga: I’m excited to see where this conversation goes!