This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ramin Karimloo: Hi folks, welcome to this week's Hang. This week we have a special guest, psychotherapist, author, musician, Thomas Jones, who is the creator of the Paradox Process. What that is, is a feeling management system that puts you in control. It helps change your perception and negative feelings. It's something that I've personally done work with, with Thomas, and I'm a big fan of this process, and I hope you enjoy this Hang, and I hope you take something from this. If there's anyone who resonates with this and does something in you, I totally encourage you to reach out and dig deeper, because it can change your life. You're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:47] Ramin Karimloo: Well Thomas Jones, welcome to the Hang.

[0:49] Thomas Jones: Thank you.

[0:50] Ramin Karimloo: It's been a while, my friend.

[0:51] Thomas Jones: It's been a while.

[0:53] Ramin Karimloo: So how do I introduce you? How are psychologists, your spiritualists?

[0:58] Thomas Jones: I've been trying to figure that out for decades, but I teach a process, the Paradox Process, which is a mind technique. I used to be a psychotherapist. I was a traditional psychotherapist, and then with a partner, I discovered this process, this Paradox Process, and I found that it was much more powerful and effective than going into people's stories. It's about the feelings that you're feeling now, changing those feelings in the moment, and getting a different outcome. So basically, I'm a teacher of the Paradox Process.

[1:30] Ramin Karimloo: So when you say, taking those feelings and changing them, you know how everything you read these days, because I'm trying to put my life back together, I'm trying to come out of this depression, which we kind of talked about off camera. To change feelings, but you want to go through them, right, and understand them.

[1:47] Thomas Jones: Yeah. There's a saying, you've got to feel it to heal it, right? And I absolutely believe in that, right? But you don't have to dwell on it. You don't have to suffer from it, right? Feelings are a signal that something needs work, and that's fine, right? If you had a pain in your knee, it would be a signal that, oh, something needs attention here, and that's what feelings are about. But we live in a culture that has kind of glorified feelings, in that it's almost as if it's a cult of feelings, like, these are my feelings, and they indulge in them in a way that is not healthy. So, this is a process that you get on the feelings, you feel them, you work through them, and then you get off them, and you have insight and information into the situation that you're in. So, I'm all about, yes, feel it, and get through it, and then get the insight and the message that's there, and then move on, let go.

[2:44] Ramin Karimloo: Which all sounds great, and I love the ... I'm getting all these messages about let go, through prayer, through daily affirmations. Letting go is such a big thing for me right now, because you hang on to nostalgia, but that's not the here and now anymore, and that's not allowing you the bravery to move on, but to be brave to let go.

[3:01] Thomas Jones: Yeah. People talk about letting go, and you've heard it all your life, but it's not so easy.

[3:07] Ramin Karimloo: No.

[3:08] Thomas Jones: Okay? We have neural networks where we're attached to all those stories, all that history, all that background, and we identify with it, like, that's who I am, and so we don't want to let go. We want to know who we are, and so we refer to that past, like, that's who I am. But the reality is, it's not who you are, and what you're going to see, and you've already experienced this somewhat, is the more you let go, the more authentic you become, the more you show up. We're very powerful in the present, but when we're in that nostalgia, or our history, or our feelings, we're not present. We're back there somewhere, right? And so the idea is to use this process, or whatever process, okay? I'm not married to this. If this didn't work, I'd drop it like a hot rock, right?

[4:00] Ramin Karimloo: Right.

[4:01] Thomas Jones: Get through the feelings, get into the present, and experience who you really are, and I think that's what's happening for you, yeah?

[4:08] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, because it's that feeling like, okay, I'm trying to let go of everything I've known, but that was then. So, like, distance has created so much, you know, when I look at me and Mandy, like, we've took for granted, like, this life. It's about having this, being on purpose, intention of, I've had this amazing career, but it's like, all that distance it did to the marriage, and the separation, and, well, the distance creating that separation, you know? So now we're on our own paths, working as friends, and co-parenting, and allowing to let go, effectively, of what we thought we knew, or what we were hanging on to. But to here and now, it's like, that doesn't work anymore. So let's find ourselves, be great parents, be great friends, and still support each other, but we're on our own paths.

[5:01] Thomas Jones: You know what? That's a great description of rebuilding a relationship the way it's supposed to be, right? Because we have all these concepts when we get into a relationship, like it should be this, and it should be that, and it should be that. And those are traps. What's happening now is that you're building a friendship. You're building a new communication based on the reality of both your situations. And so, there's a lot more promise and possibility in the situation now, than in the past, where it wasn't working. So I love this. I think it's an evolution.

[5:32] Ramin Karimloo: But I know, for me, letting go has always been a tough thing, whether it's the marriage or work. And now I'm finding, with work now, stop chasing things. Just try and be available. Be the best you can be at that given moment, because so much is out of your control.

[5:52] Thomas Jones: Yeah, in reality, all of it is out of your control, right? But I am a control freak, and so I've gamed the system. I've discovered that you can control the outcomes through your intention, right? So you have intentions for the situations that you're in, right? You intend for it to go a certain way, and then you let go into it. You let go into your intentions, right? So you have an enormous amount of control through those intentions, through your burning desire, through your personal power. That alone will take care of all the control that you need. This other thing we do, where we're trying to micromanage the moment, that never works. And the more you try to control like that, the more out of control you feel. And so, you're hot on the trail of exactly where you need to be, letting go. But recognize that that doesn't mean having no say over the outcome. Because again, have an intention, have a vision, have a plan, and then let go into it.

[6:56] Ramin Karimloo: So bringing us back to the process, and I know you work with a lot of actors, and we touched on this in an email, like I feel post-pandemic, we're still realigning. We're still, well, we, I can only speak for myself, as an artist, it's sort of like now things are really hitting me and I'm finding myself getting panic attacks, where your breath goes, your voice goes. I'm like, I'm going to need a second here. And the worst thing is sometimes with Nicky Arnstein in the final scene too, you're like, oh, I can't get it out. I'm like, okay, I gotta get control of this.

[7:28] Thomas Jones: Right. Yeah, that's scary. And you know, the pandemic is so deceptive, because we thought we navigated it, right? We thought, all right, I got through that. I did whatever I had to do. But it was an emotional kick in the stomach. And, you know, I was running for the train the other day, and I hit my knee on a metal bar on the way down the stairs, right? Didn't feel a thing, right? A day later, I could hardly walk. And I was like, what is this? That's what the pandemic is like, that we got through it. We thought we were okay. But now is the effect. And what it revealed was this dramatic loneliness that we all have, that we all feel, and that we have managed. You know, when life was busy, when we were out and about, we didn't have to notice it so much. We could deflect it here and engage in that or do 100 different things or get with people. But during the pandemic, we had so much time with ourselves, that we could honestly start to experience that loneliness.

[8:34] Thomas Jones: Now, I was thinking about this all week. And I was thinking, all right, so we have to reframe that as a gift, a complicated gift. I'll give it, you know, I wouldn't choose it, but I'm going to call it a gift. And as a gift, it has things to offer, because it bears that loneliness, it shows us that. And now we get to deal with it. Not that we want to, but we get to, right? And this is where tools come in. This is where you got to have tools, right? You got to have meditation, you got to have the Paradox Process, you got to have prayer, you got to have things that are going to open you up and allow you to explore that inner world and release those feelings of loneliness and despair, because we've been loaded with them over this pandemic.

And so it's not surprising that you have these aftershocks, because that's what they are, you know, just like my knee, a rude aftershock, I might add. And it's that thing of changing the word loneliness into solitude as a positive thing, like solitude is okay. Solitude is a beautiful thing. Loneliness is a fear, actually. It's the fear that I'm alone, and I'll always be alone. And when you start experiencing that fear, you can go into depression or despair, right? If you get rid of the fear, you're going to realize we often prefer to be alone. It's not a bad place, right? But preference is a lot different than feeling like you're stuck in it, right? If I prefer solitude, I can invite people in when I choose.

If I'm stuck in loneliness, I'm trapped, I'm isolated. And so I think that's the whole effect of this pandemic. But I do have hope for it. If people have the awareness to recognize, first of all, acknowledging what you're doing, I think that's great. I don't think it's great that you're feeling it, you know, on Act Three, but I think that acknowledging it is the first step toward, okay, something needs to be resolved.

[11:03] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, because like, I looked at my life, and I've done amazing things. I know everyone can use Instagram, which is so well curated. I've only put the good stuff or like stuff I want to advertise. But deep down, it's like, you're constantly on the road. And what are you building? Because being an actor doesn't define who I am. I just enjoy doing it. So then what am I? Who am I as a father, as a husband? What are red flags? What are red lights? What is so depleted because of distance, friendships, family? Yeah, my whole life became I'm at the center. And anything that's actually important to me.

[11:19] Ramin Karimloo: It's FaceTime. I'm never around anyone. Parents, brothers, wife, sons. It's all FaceTime.

[11:28] Thomas Jones: Yeah. And by the way, you know, the deception, I understand why you hate Zoom, by the way.

[11:34] Ramin Karimloo: It's the deception of social media. We think we're engaging, right? But we end up lonelier than before. 100%. That's why I deleted so much. I'm like, I got nothing to offer right now. And I'm like, this far away, just delete it all. Because I'm like, I'm not an influencer.

[11:51] Thomas Jones: But is there a way to use the platform for good? I don't know. So I just hold off for a while.

[11:55] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, I can be in that same dilemma, right? Like, what is this for?

[12:00] Thomas Jones: Because my business head is like, it's still a good thing. My son's birthday was yesterday. And he was talking to me and complaining that, oh, I look on social media, and I see everybody surrounded by their friends and on their birthday and having a great time. And here I am alone. And I said, Yeah, that's why they call it fake book.

[12:17] Ramin Karimloo: Okay. Yeah, that's all facade. That's all the imagined life that we wish we had.

[12:24] Thomas Jones: Yeah, but it's not real.

[12:25] Ramin Karimloo: No. And I'm also one for like, you grow and heal in private, you love in private, you that's something we should embrace more. But you want to be real as well. And authentic, because I knew that was not serving me as a person anymore. I'm like, I just, with these attacks that were happening, my throat closing up, and I'm like, I gotta do something about this.

[12:45] Thomas Jones: Yeah. And that's your body telling you, something's wrong here. You're not paying attention to something. Pay attention.

[12:52] Ramin Karimloo: And normally, I wouldn't talk about this on a podcast. But I feel like there's, if I'm going through this, there's definitely someone else going through this. So it's the only time I'll talk about it. And I think if it helps even one more person.

[13:03] Thomas Jones: Oh, absolutely. It is an epidemic of loneliness. It is the number one complaint. Loneliness and isolation is the number one complaint in the world today. And it's because of the kind of cul-de-sac that we've gotten ourselves in with social media largely helping, right?

[13:19] Ramin Karimloo: And what I've learned, it's got nothing to do with what you have.

[13:21] Thomas Jones: No.

[13:22] Ramin Karimloo: I got this gorgeous flat.

[13:23] Thomas Jones: No, that's the external. You got it all.

[13:26] Ramin Karimloo: None of that's real.

[13:28] Thomas Jones: No, that's the external. Nothing external is ever going to change this internally.

[13:33] Ramin Karimloo: I'm grateful for it. Don't get me wrong.

[13:35] Thomas Jones: Well, it's better than not having it.

[13:36] Ramin Karimloo: 100%. And that's where my gratitude is, okay, I may be here, but I have this. So I'm like, okay, this is a great start. And I'm so grateful.

[13:44] Thomas Jones: What do they say? Money can't buy happiness, but poverty can't buy anything. So it's great to have the things in the world. That's done. That's great. Now you got to deal with your internal world. Now you got to deal with the big questions like, who am I? Where am I going? What is my purpose? What are my lessons in life?

[14:05] Ramin Karimloo: And do you know what else I want to add to that is what service? Who can I be a service to?

[14:10] Thomas Jones: Right. That's great. Because when you arrive there, now you've found purpose.

[14:17] Ramin Karimloo: Because I'm getting great things and on the horizon, there's some possible big things happening. I'm like, it can't be just about a paycheck. It can't be just another Instagram photo of look what I'm doing. It's like, what can we do with this?

[14:29] Thomas Jones: Oh, I love that.

[14:31] Ramin Karimloo: I don't have the answer for it.

[14:33] Thomas Jones: But as long as you're in the question, you're going to find answers, right? So I do a process called living in the question. Like how can I serve? How can I make this useful? How can I add value? And if you're living in that question, you're going to find answers because opportunities will show up for you.

[14:49] Ramin Karimloo: I forget who I was talking to, but I was talking about our internal dialogue, how we talk to ourselves, right? And so many people have a toxic inner dialogue, right?

[15:04] Thomas Jones: Oh, my God, yes.

[15:05] Ramin Karimloo: It's awful. You know, you make a mistake and you can hear it like, what's wrong with you? You idiot, you fool, you this, you that. We have this toxic internal dialogue, and we're not even paying attention to it. We don't even know how to deal with it, right?

[15:20] Thomas Jones: So one of the things I love to direct this process toward is eliminating that negative internal dialogue and turning it into a positive dialogue, right? Because imagine, you know how negative you are toward yourself, right? Because we all do. We all got that conversation, right?

[15:35] Ramin Karimloo: Three days ago, I started every morning journaling gratitude, but also, what's one thing you like about yourself? And it's so hard to answer that second one.

[15:45] Thomas Jones: Right.

[15:46] Ramin Karimloo: And it doesn't matter what other people say.

[15:48] Thomas Jones: No.

[15:48] Ramin Karimloo: It's what you say about yourself.

[15:50] Thomas Jones: Right. And so, what we do with the process, and I'll do it with you, if you like, I'll walk you through an exercise. It's kind of fun.

[15:58] Ramin Karimloo: I'll end up crying.

[16:00] Thomas Jones: I can feel it already. I'm fighting back.

[16:03] Ramin Karimloo: How about this? I promise you won't.

[16:05] Thomas Jones: Okay.

[16:05] Ramin Karimloo: Okay.

[16:07] Thomas Jones: I'm not going to make you cry.

[16:09] Ramin Karimloo: It's not you, it's me.

[16:12] Thomas Jones: I mean, when have I made you cry?

[16:14] Ramin Karimloo: All right, five times, but still.

[16:16] Thomas Jones: Yeah. We've had therapy, Thomas.

[16:19] Ramin Karimloo: I know.

[16:19] Thomas Jones: Why was I going to call you Michael there?

[16:21] Ramin Karimloo: That's my middle name, by the way.

[16:23] Thomas Jones: Oh.

[16:23] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah. And that's my son's name.

[16:25] Thomas Jones: Okay.

[16:25] Ramin Karimloo: Isn't that funny? That's one of my favorite names.

[16:28] Thomas Jones: But look, let's do a little bit of this. And you can cry uncle if it's too much for you, okay?

[16:34] Ramin Karimloo: All right.

[16:35] Thomas Jones: But here's what I do. I set up a scale of zero to 10, right? And let's say that we're going to deal with your feelings about you, right? And let's say that the zero they're going to work toward is you seeing yourself as being of value, you liking yourself, you feeling good about yourself, and you being excited about how you interact with the world. How about that? So, if that's zero, how far from that would you be with that in general?

[17:05] Ramin Karimloo: So, 10 being the best.

[17:06] Thomas Jones: 10 is the worst, zero is the best. I know it's a little backwards, but 10 bad, zero good.

[17:14] Ramin Karimloo: How I feel right now or the potential I can see? How I feel right now about myself?

[17:19] Thomas Jones: Yeah.

[17:21] Ramin Karimloo: Six?

[17:21] Thomas Jones: Yeah, it's about halfway. Five, six. All right. So, now I'm going to start firing questions and statements at you.

[17:26] Ramin Karimloo: Okay.

[17:29] Thomas Jones: It's not going to hurt, I promise. Or maybe it is, I don't know. You're just going to say, let's use the positive. You're going to say affirm clear after each one. We're just going to use positive statements. Ready?

[17:41] Ramin Karimloo: Mm-hmm.

[17:43] Thomas Jones: Is it important for me to know how much good I've already done?

[17:48] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[17:49] Thomas Jones: Can I trust that I've taken a lot of heartache away from people?

[17:55] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[17:56] Thomas Jones: Can I see that I've moved people, I've changed people, I've shown them the way?

[18:00] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:01] Thomas Jones: Can I see that I may not have done it consciously, but I did it?

[18:04] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:04] Thomas Jones: Can I recognize that my work has inspired people?

[18:08] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:09] Thomas Jones: Can I see that it's uplifted everyone around me?

[18:11] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:12] Thomas Jones: Is it important for me to know who I really am?

[18:15] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:15] Thomas Jones: Can I see that I think I'm this bad guy, this rotten guy, this selfish guy, but that's nonsense?

[18:20] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:21] Thomas Jones: Can I see that the only reason I think that is because someone told me?

[18:24] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:25] Thomas Jones: Is it a time to throw that conversation out of my head and enter a new conversation?

[18:29] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:30] Thomas Jones: What if I woke up loving the guy that I showed up in?

[18:34] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:35] Thomas Jones: What if I woke up appreciating who he really is?

[18:38] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:39] Thomas Jones: Is it important for me to recognize the value that I add in the world?

[18:42] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:43] Thomas Jones: Is it important to recognize the potential that I have in the world?

[18:46] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:47] Thomas Jones: Can I see that that conversation is wrong?

[18:49] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:50] Thomas Jones: Can I see that there's a new conversation that is much more empowering, much more enlivening?

[18:55] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[18:56] Thomas Jones: Is it important for me to enter that new conversation and buy into it?

[18:59] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:00] Thomas Jones: Can I see that I really buy into the negative one?

[19:02] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:03] Thomas Jones: Is it a time to throw it out the window and buy into a positive one?

[19:06] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:07] Thomas Jones: Is it a time for me to recognize that I'm lovable, that I'm loved, that I'm cared for, and that I'm a giving, thoughtful soul?

[19:15] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:16] Thomas Jones: Can I trust and know that I am of value and I give value to all those around me?

[19:23] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:23] Thomas Jones: Isn't it true that I've always done my best?

[19:27] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:28] Thomas Jones: Isn't it true that I've always tried to be generous of heart and generous of spirit?

[19:32] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:32] Thomas Jones: Isn't that who I really am?

[19:34] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:34] Thomas Jones: Aren't I even now looking for a bigger purpose?

[19:37] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:38] Thomas Jones: Aren't I excited to find it?

[19:40] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:41] Thomas Jones: Aren't I on my path?

[19:42] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:43] Thomas Jones: Isn't it important to let the old conversation go to get present, look toward the future, and build something beautiful?

[19:49] Ramin Karimloo: Affirm clear.

[19:51] Thomas Jones: See, that didn't hurt too much, right?

[19:53] Ramin Karimloo: No.

[19:55] Thomas Jones: And it's all true.

[19:58] Ramin Karimloo: What do you think of that?

[20:00] Thomas Jones: Affirm clear.

[20:01] Ramin Karimloo: That's great.

[20:04] Thomas Jones: I love that. But, you know, our authentic selves are these amazing beings. You know, we're generous, we're thoughtful, we're caring, we're loving. And of course, we want to be loved in return. We want to be valued and appreciated. There's nothing in the world wrong with that, right? But that's who we really are.

[20:22] Ramin Karimloo: And we, by humans, I'm not saying this about being an artist.

[20:27] Thomas Jones: No, it's all human beings.

[20:28] Ramin Karimloo: Community, fellowship.

[20:30] Thomas Jones: Yeah, we have that seed in us, that powerful seed of love, of acceptance, of goodness. But we've been so corrupted by that internal dialogue that's been drilled into us as kids through trauma, through history, through pain, that we buy into that version of ourselves. And it's just not true.

[20:49] Ramin Karimloo: It's nonsense.

[20:52] Thomas Jones: Yeah, because you are sealing on our potential that we put on ourselves is based on experiences rather than, you know, like children don't have that.

[21:04] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, sky's the limit.

[21:05] Thomas Jones: Then you live life and you start putting these feelings on you, but it's like, but why? Because we need love, acceptance and approval, right?

[21:13] Ramin Karimloo: And so because we need that, we listen to the people around us. And if they're saying, that's not good, you're bad, you're wrong, you're this, you're that, we start to limit ourselves so that we can be loved.

[21:26] Thomas Jones: And what we don't realize is that we're diminishing ourselves so that we can get whatever love is there.

[21:32] Ramin Karimloo: And when you say we need that, of course, as humans, we need it.

[21:35] Thomas Jones: But don't we need to find that within ourselves?

[21:38] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, and I look at it like the journey, right? I look at it like sort of like a game, right? Like we come into this world new. You know, you look at kids in a playground, they're wonderful, right? Like you said, the sky's the limit. They're joyous, they're happy, they love each other, they're playing, they're fun. And then slowly but surely, we get programmed by our parents, by our environment, by society to diminish ourselves, to fit in, right?

[22:04] Thomas Jones: It's a very powerful influence to fit in, to be loved, to be accepted, to be approved of.

[22:10] Ramin Karimloo: And so we make ourselves smaller and smaller. The game is afoot then, because now the search is on for who we really are.

[22:18] Thomas Jones: The search is on to rediscover this authentic self. And when you start to rediscover it, you almost don't believe it. Like, nah, I can't be all that, right?

[22:29] Ramin Karimloo: Because you're so conditioned to being this less than, that it doesn't make sense that you could be this grand being.

[22:36] Thomas Jones: But that's who we really are.

[22:39] Thomas Jones: How do you get that bravery where, you know, when you have that epiphany, whether someone like, I'm going to switch careers because this is my calling and you feel so good about it and there's your high, then you got to do it. Yes. And that's the trick, right? Life will bring you to a high place and then it'll pull the rug out from you and say, okay, now rebuild it on your own. Because if we just got it, we wouldn't trust it. If it was just given to us, we wouldn't believe it. But because the rug is pulled out and people don't understand that's what's supposed to happen, we then get to rebuild intelligently in a way that we own who we really are. And that's the process that you're in. You're rediscovering you and starting to own those pieces. And that's when peace of mind really starts to show up. Does that make sense to you as a process?

[23:30] Ramin Karimloo: A hundred percent. Because again, it goes back to like, I feel, you know, 44, but sometimes I feel still like a child, especially as an artist and there's so much ambition I have. And it's now it's, I've worked for so long that you build this, these skills and you're constantly building them. But there's this confidence in my skin, at least as an artist to go, I may not know where it's going to go, but now I want to be of service. So for me, it's through prayer. And I'm like, okay, where do you want me to be? Yeah. Yeah. And where do you need me? That also is good for being a father as well as a support for my friends. I don't know, but it's like, yeah, you decide.

[24:14] Thomas Jones: And really what you're kind of deferring to is that higher power and that's within you as well. Right. That's, that's the real version of us, right? We're all part of that. And I love that you've come to service because that's the highest order, right? That's how to live with joy, how to live with happiness. You know, we have such a selfish generation coming up, right? That they're constantly looking for what they can get, what they can have. Right. And they think that joy is the accumulation of stuff, right? So they're like, give me this, give me that. Now, all that is, is stuff. You're going to have to carry it around with you. Yeah. It's in the way. Yeah. But when you start giving of yourself and making a difference in the world, that's when you start experiencing your real power. That's when you start feeling like who you really are. I read a quote the other day, no one went poor by giving.

[25:11] Ramin Karimloo: That's great. That's great. And you know, if people understood the key to personal power, it really is about giving. Because when you give, you're seeing your power, you're expressing your power, and you're engaging with the world in the best possible way. It's a very powerful thing to do. But again, you know, people have this comfort zone that they keep working on. Yeah. And it's a house of cards, okay? That's what the pandemic showed us. Like, here's your comfort zone, right? Good luck with that. And it's so easy to kind of be seduced by familiarity and comfort. And because to get uncomfortable to grow, whatever that looks like and whatever that means to the individual, that's scary and it's tough.

[25:54] Thomas Jones: It is scary. And I'm saying this from a position of privilege with what I have in my life. So I want that, it's not lost on me. I was talking to a client yesterday, and he was complaining that he was uncomfortable, and he was anxious, and he was worried, and he was doubtful. And I said, what if that's the price you have to pay to get to your greatness? What if there's nothing wrong with that, right? What if you recognize that those are the steps to getting to where you need to be? I'm not saying dwell in your anxiety, but accept it, acknowledge it, and work through it. Because he wanted it gone, right? We have a side that wants it gone. You know, give me a pill, give me this, give me that. I don't want to feel any pain.

But the reality is, like you said before, feelings are a teacher, and you got to learn from them. And if you accept them, you'll learn an awful lot. And look where it's brought you. It's brought you to the concept of service, which again, is the highest order of being, right? I love it.

[26:59] Ramin Karimloo: It's funny you mentioned about pills too, because I'm trying to like, even for now, not to have anything against it, but like, no more alcohol for the most part. Even I've stopped drinking coffee. I'm like, let's just see what happens. Clear as much as you can to kind of see things a bit clearer, hear things a bit louder, taste things a bit richer.

[27:19] Thomas Jones: Yeah, yeah. So going back to the process then, what we did, that's part of the process, or that is the process?

[27:26] Ramin Karimloo: No, that's part of it. There's many different aspects of it. And what we do is, you know, when I'm sitting across from somebody, and you know this by personal experience, I ask somebody, what do you want? What do you want to create in the world? And then we go about trying to figure out, okay, so what's in the way? And then we'll go after those obstacles. Sometimes they're emotional, sometimes they're strategic, sometimes they're actual, and we work through them. But here's what I know, that when this changes, when your point of view changes, your world changes, right? And so the real obstacles are in here. And so what I'm constantly identifying is, okay, so what's going on in there? What are your thoughts? What are your beliefs? What are your feelings? What are your expectations that are in your way from getting what you want, right?

[28:16] Thomas Jones: Change your mindset, change your life, right?

[28:17] Ramin Karimloo: That's it. And you know, I've been doing it for 50 years, so I actually got good at it. I like that thing, and it's about being clear about what you want, but don't you think you also have to align that with who you are, so you are what you want?

[28:37] Thomas Jones: That's right.

[28:38] Ramin Karimloo: You put that out there.

[28:39] Thomas Jones: That's exactly right, because what people think they want is very different than what they really want. I was sitting across from somebody, and he was saying, I want money, I want money. And I said, okay, but what will that do for you? What's the experience you're looking for? It turns out he wanted safety, right? And he thought money would give him safety.

[28:59] Ramin Karimloo: Right.

[29:00] Thomas Jones: So we've got to look at the underlying want, and then decide, is that real? Is that good? Should you go there? Can you make that happen? Right? So you've got to, you know, people want fame, people want money, people want sex, people want power. And you've got to ask yourself, why? Why do you want that? And usually it's that they want that reflection of themselves so that they can like themselves. And how about this? Let's start with liking yourself and see what you want to add then, right?

[29:31] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, it's so true. And I think, especially as artists, as we can bring this back to your work with our community, how many can actually take a compliment and just say thank you, and not be like, oh, my voice tonight, like, oh, you sang great tonight. Oh, really? I was feeling it. No, just say thank you.

[29:47] Thomas Jones: Oh, man. Yeah. Masters of deflection, right?

[29:51] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah. Recognize their grace, and also reinforce their grace for them to go. So then they can go on and continue with that kindness, because it's been received, acknowledged, and they'll be like, oh, that makes people feel good. I'm going to do that again.

[30:03] Thomas Jones: Yeah. You're so right. You're so right. I have a girl who was just invited to sing at the White House, right? And she's like, I'm not worthy. I don't deserve. First of all, I want to say, who do you think they are?

[30:17] Ramin Karimloo: Exactly.

[30:18] Thomas Jones: Let's get real here. Point number one. But point number two, they're not giving you a gift. Okay? You've earned that, you know, you've made it clear that you have the personal power to do this. And you should honor that power. You know, maybe you have to say, oh, God has been good. Thank you for the gifts. That's fine. But that's at least you acknowledging, I have these things, right?

[30:44] Ramin Karimloo: And I'm learning to do that, too, especially with the work I'm doing. And I was trying to put down what I did as well. But I got to the point, I'm like, no, but you are touching people. Not necessarily Ramin. I could be a conduit for something. All right, I'll be that.

[30:59] Thomas Jones: Yeah. But think for a minute of how much joy you've given people over the years. Just think about all those audiences, right? And the smiles you put on their faces, and how you lift...

[31:10] Ramin Karimloo: Most. There's some, probably.

[31:11] Thomas Jones: Well, isn't that who you see them?

[31:12] Ramin Karimloo: My ego's not that big.

[31:13] Thomas Jones: That's who you see, too, right? You can have 100 people clapping and one looking like, hmm.

[31:21] Ramin Karimloo: But now I've learned to be like, and you're... That's fine as well.

[31:24] Thomas Jones: Right.

[31:25] Ramin Karimloo: Because you have a right to like what you like.

[31:28] Thomas Jones: Your experience.

[31:30] Ramin Karimloo: And I still love you. All is good.

[31:32] Thomas Jones: And get out. No.

[31:34] Ramin Karimloo: You paid, right?

[31:36] Thomas Jones: Okay.

[31:37] Ramin Karimloo: No.

[31:38] Thomas Jones: Then you're good.

[31:39] Ramin Karimloo: But you're right. You're exactly right. You take the good with the bad. You don't take your reflection from their response. But think of the joy. When you think of... Here, let's get a little woo-woo. You think of the vibrational frequency of love, of compassion, of joy. These are the things that you're sending out to people, right? And there are people who are catching it, right? They're receiving it. And some of them are receiving it at just the right moment, where it's like, ah, okay. You've changed lives. And I think own that just a little bit, right? Because then you're touching your personal power. Because when you understand your personal power, then you can wield that power for the good, right?

[32:25] Thomas Jones: Because you know what? The other day, I won't say who, but this person came to me and they said they had a dark moment in their life. They literally had one ticket left to go see Bounce, that show. They were going to kill themselves after that show. That was the plan. They went and saw Bounce, and what that was about, here to tell the tale, and living their best life ever.

[32:56] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, that's amazing. That's a transformation.

[33:00] Thomas Jones: Do you think anyone in that cast that night thought, we're saving lives? Probably not, but you did.

[33:06] Ramin Karimloo: But I guarantee you, you are and you have.

[33:09] Thomas Jones: And I'm not saying artists, we can do that. I mean, as humans, we can just change lives. But just showing up, being there, being kind, vibrating, as you say, with joy and kindness. So my work is to show people who they really are, and how to apply that to the life they want in a way that they get the outcomes that they need, right?

[33:28] Ramin Karimloo: So if someone wants to do that, they phone up the office, obviously all the details will be here. Do they literally say, I want to do the process, or is there a length of time?

[33:36] Thomas Jones: Yeah, we have a website, ParadoxProcess.org. You can go there, you can sign up for a free session. We'll give you some of the work, see how it works for you, see what it does for you. And if you resonate with it, great, then we'll go forward, right? Nothing is for everybody, right? Some people gravitate toward meditation, great. Some people work with prayer, some people...

[33:59] Thomas Jones: This is a set of tools that's going to help you understand yourself. And I think the biggest issue people have is they don't understand themselves. They don't get it. You know, why am I in pain? Why am I lost? Why am I confused? Why am I lonely? And when you find answers to that, real answers, because there are real answers, you find your way out of the darkness. And you know, that's what we do. We bring people out of the darkness. What you do once you're in the light, you know, great, do whatever you want, celebrate, you know, create what you want. But that's what it's about. And I guess there's no definite time, it depends on the person. It depends on the person. Some people have come to me for one session, and their lives have changed.

Like the guy who saw a bounce, right? Their lives have changed. And they're off and running and, you know, having a ball. That's great. Off you go. Some people want to delve deeper. And we can go as deep as you want. We can work on everything, we can transform your life, we can change everything you want change. Some people are looking for love. That's not that hard. Okay? Some people are looking, you know, especially in your field that they're looking for an advancement in their career, and they're hitting the wall, hitting the wall. We show them what that wall is and how to get through it. Okay? So whatever the obstacle is to what it is that you want, we help you through it, we give you the tools to work your way through it.

And I think, you know, we do a school program, we go in there with at-risk youth, right? And we show them this stuff. And they're a lot more innocent than adults. You know, adults are so cynical, right? What is this shit, right? But kids are like, okay, I'll try it. Great. And it works amazingly for them. And I think, God, I wish I had that as a kid, right? Yo, mate, the things I'm listening to now podcast or the conversation I'm having, I'm like, even in my 20s, why didn't I have this?

[36:03] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, yeah. And I think at the end of the day, I'm really rescuing that kid that I was the whole time, right? Because if I had those opportunities, I would have soared, right? If we would have had the knowledge, the information, we would have benefited so greatly. And maybe we did, we just weren't looking for it.

[36:16] Thomas Jones: Well, yeah, we're busy messing around.

[36:20] Ramin Karimloo: That's it. So I shouldn't be embarrassed at 44. I'm like, why shouldn't I know this already?

[36:27] Thomas Jones: Yeah. Well, look, whenever you get there, you get there. And then we're always changing too, right?

[36:34] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah. And you know what? Growth is a never-ending process in its way. But having said that, it's not a chore, right? It's a joy. The more you discover you, the more peace of mind you get, the more authenticity you get, the more happiness you're able to create. So I'm still growing at my age, right? I'm still excited. I still discover things. And I'm like, oh, I didn't know that. You know, I still got stuff to work on. And my staff reminds me of those things.

[37:06] Thomas Jones: We're right behind us now.

[37:07] Ramin Karimloo: Thank you very much. And you have a book of the process, right?

[37:11] Thomas Jones: I haven't put the process book out yet. I have a relationship book, Love Games, The Hidden Rules of Relationship. Because my first exploration was, what is this relationship thing? What is this love thing that we all get so destroyed by, right? And so it's a manual on how to navigate love, how to not take it personally, how to understand it, how to relate to somebody, what you need to give, what you need to receive, what the values are. Love Games. It's a great book. Even though I wrote it, I can say that.

[37:44] Ramin Karimloo: And you are working on the process as a book as well?

[37:48] Thomas Jones: Oh, yes. We have that written. We're pitching it now. So it'll probably get published in September or October.

[37:55] Ramin Karimloo: Fantastic.

[37:56] Thomas Jones: Yeah, it's going to be fun. It's going to be fun.

[37:57] Ramin Karimloo: Well, that'd be great for people to get to.

[37:59] Thomas Jones: It's called The Paradox Process, The Road to Reinventing Yourself.

[38:03] Ramin Karimloo: That's amazing. I can't wait to get a copy.

[38:05] Thomas Jones: I'll send you an early copy.

[38:07] Ramin Karimloo: I'm definitely going to have to book in and see again.

[38:10] Thomas Jones: Sounds like we've got a few things to work on.

[38:12] Ramin Karimloo: We got stuff. We got stuff.

[38:14] Thomas Jones: And the relationship book is called Love Games?

[38:16] Ramin Karimloo: Love Games. Yeah.

[38:18] Thomas Jones: And without crossing paths too much and whatnot, what's your belief on love languages and stuff like that?

[38:26] Thomas Jones: Well, I like those models, right? I think they're useful models because they reveal something. Any model that reveals something and gives you more information is kind of useful, right? So what's your love language? Oh, quality time. Okay, so that's what I'm oriented to. Oh, little gifts and acts of service. Okay, that's what I'm oriented to. And it's good. Everything that gives you more information and more knowledge is a good thing. So I don't mind integrating everything that makes sense, right? There's a lot of silliness out there, a lot of nonsense. But the things that really speak to you and reveal you to yourself, those are of value. And I think deep down, we all at the root know it's just being scared to be honest with ourselves. We're so terrified of what we're going to see, of the guy we're going to meet like, uh-oh.

[39:22] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, especially if you're coming out of a comfort zone or what you've known. And like if I ever wanted to change careers, I'd be like, what?

[39:30] Thomas Jones: Right.

[39:30] Ramin Karimloo: But now I'm getting to the point where I'm always like, well, life, we'll see where life takes you.

[39:35] Thomas Jones: And that's the truth. You're on a journey. But here's the thing about discovering who you really are. It's like holding on to a branch over a cliff, right? And you're holding on desperately because you don't want to see who you are. And then finally, you let go and you drop two inches, right? And you're like, oh, this is who I am. This is all right.

[39:54] Thomas Jones: Letting go. That is something that keeps coming back through my daily prayers, daily meditations. And I'll listen to a song and they're talking about letting go. I'm like, and not the Frozen song. But even there, they're a great message. Yeah. And it's key. It's key because we get so attached to so many different things and people that we're weighed down by all those attachments, everything we think we need. And then a crisis comes and you realize, I don't need any of that, right? So I like to catch people before they get the big wake-up calls, right? Before they get really schooled by life, because you can preempt that. You can learn how to let go without having been taught by life, right? Pain is our teacher, no doubt about it.

But you can learn how to detach. You can learn how to be present. You can learn how to rediscover who you are and kind of get back to ground zero. And here's my message to people. You're going to like who you really are, okay? You really are. And you know what else? Most people around you know it and you don't.

[41:06] Ramin Karimloo: That's amazing. Yeah, it's funny stuff, right? Well, I appreciate you coming on The Hang. Love seeing you again. It's so good to see you. And well, I think let's get a session in.

[41:17] Thomas Jones: We will. We will do that. Is there anything else I might have missed? You want to let us know? Remind us of the website. I can feel your staff behind me.

[41:24] Thomas Jones: Yeah, I'm being prompted here. www.paradoxprocess.org. Listen, we have an ongoing Monday night class where we work on every one of these topics. One week it's on detachment. One week it's on pain and how to manage pain. One week it's on love and what love really means. Every week we have a different topic and we work on those topics.

[41:44] Ramin Karimloo: How do you get involved with that class?

[41:48] Thomas Jones: You can go to the website and sign up for the class.

[41:50] Ramin Karimloo: In person, online?

[41:54] Thomas Jones: It's online, yeah.

[41:54] Ramin Karimloo: What time is Monday?

[41:56] Thomas Jones: Monday night, 8 o'clock. And we have a lot of fun, okay? I don't believe the work should be heavy. I believe that it should be fun, right? If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't be doing it.

[42:08] Ramin Karimloo: Well, and when you have those breakthroughs and you start learning that knowledge is power, that knowledge is fun, that it's exciting and that's what's going to build your confidence. That's what works for me.

[42:20] Thomas Jones: Yeah. Okay, Monday nights. Thursday night free class.

[42:29] Ramin Karimloo: What's that?

[42:30] Thomas Jones: This is for people that want to just jump in, see what the process is like. Don't necessarily have a commitment. It's free. Try it, you know?

[42:35] Ramin Karimloo: And that's a group setting online as well?

[42:40] Thomas Jones: It's a group setting online. But people can be private still for themselves if they're a bit nervous?

[42:44] Thomas Jones: Yeah, you don't have to even be seen online. Same thing with the Monday class. If you want privacy, you can just observe, right? We're not going to call anyone out. And through like message board, they can contribute something?

[42:54] Thomas Jones: Yes, through the chat. You can ask questions. You can interact.

[42:59] Ramin Karimloo: How old am I? Message board.

[43:01] Thomas Jones: Message board. That's great. I love that.

[43:05] Thomas Jones: Yeah. So, we're doing a retreat in Costa Rica. We're going to do this work as an intensive, right? We're going to bring some people there because we have to have a beautiful setting.

[43:14] Ramin Karimloo: Of course. To do the hard work.

[43:18] Thomas Jones: Yes. I got to have the ocean. I got to go swimming, right?

[43:20] Ramin Karimloo: When's Costa Rica happening?

[43:26] Thomas Jones: That is August 1st? No. July 31st to August 5th.

[43:32] Ramin Karimloo: Oh, nice. And how many people can go on that? What's the total?

[43:40] Thomas Jones: We want about 15 people, no more, right? Because you got to have a set of...

[43:44] Ramin Karimloo: Yes.

[43:44] Thomas Jones: There's two slots left.

[43:46] Ramin Karimloo: There's two slots left. Get in while you can, folks.

[43:49] Thomas Jones: She's very funny. But yeah, we got all these activities, all these ways of getting involved. And here's the thing I want to tell people that, and I know this from on a personal level, that you've been telling yourself you want to change. You've been telling yourself that. And take the opportunity because life is flying by. And jump in. You got to jump in somewhere. And don't be scared. The water's fine. It's going to be okay.

[44:13] Ramin Karimloo: And are you active on your Instagram and socials? Is there stuff people can get on that to take away?

[44:17] Thomas Jones: Yeah. We're on Instagram. We give some lessons, some tips, some cues. Instagram. I think we're on TikTok. We're on Facebook. All the things.

[44:24] Ramin Karimloo: You're not doing it, though. Someone's doing it for you, right?

[44:32] Thomas Jones: No, thank God. Doing the edits. Good. I can't dance like that. What can I say?

[44:37] Ramin Karimloo: I bet your dancing will bring us joy.

[44:39] Thomas Jones: What's that? We have a teen intern.

[44:41] Ramin Karimloo: Oh, we have a teen intern. That young brain, they can think that way. They're so quick with it.

[44:44] Thomas Jones: Yeah. No, I don't have that. But yeah, all these different ways to get in touch with us. And I'm saying it's worth it. Jump in. If ever you're going to find a way to grow that is less painful and more revealing, this is going to be it. Paradox process.

[45:01] Ramin Karimloo: Fantastic. Thomas, thanks so much for coming on here.

[45:06] Thomas Jones: Thanks for having me. This has been great.

[45:08] Ramin Karimloo: All right, brother. We'll see you soon.