This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Ramin Karimloo: Hi, I'm Ramin Karimloo and welcome to my podcast, The Hang, where I get to hang out with some of my friends and get some much-needed face-to-face time and talk about, well, whatever.

[0:13] Ramin Karimloo: Today I get to hang with Hadley Fraser, my great friend whom I look up to and have had the fortune of working with on several occasions.

[0:21] Ramin Karimloo: A star of the stage in the United Kingdom, Broadway, New York City, and has had concerts that have taken him as far as Japan.

[0:28] Ramin Karimloo: He is a musician, writer, and all-around exceptional human being.

[0:32] Ramin Karimloo: Hadley Fraser and I both made our West End debuts in Les Miserables, and we have been friends ever since.

[0:38] Ramin Karimloo: In our Hang, we talked nonsense about fitness, shared equal admiration for each other, our time in Les Mis, the Phantom 25th anniversary at Royal Albert Hall, and he shared great insight on how he approaches his work as an actor, and the aspirations for and his journey in developing the character and staying true to the authorial intent.

[0:58] Ramin Karimloo: Hadley also talks about how he developed as a writer. I also learned three new words in his podcast, usant, temerity, and subsummation.

[1:07] Ramin Karimloo: Amongst the many gems he shared, I also love the sentence that came out in our conversation.

[1:13] Ramin Karimloo: Music has such a potential to shift people and change what's going on inside them.

[1:18] Ramin Karimloo: Hadley, I think you do the same, brother, and thanks for the Hang.

[1:21] Ramin Karimloo: Here is part one of our Hang.

[1:27] Ramin Karimloo: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The Hang with Hadley Fraser.

[1:31] Hadley Fraser: Hi, buddy.

[1:32] Ramin Karimloo: How's it going?

[1:33] Hadley Fraser: This is nice.

[1:34] Ramin Karimloo: How are you doing with that chair?

[1:35] Hadley Fraser: This is the issue with the chair here, is that the seat is really low in comparison with the armrests.

[1:40] Hadley Fraser: So if you could imagine what it feels like to be a child.

[1:43] Hadley Fraser: I feel like a child.

[1:44] Ramin Karimloo: Well, maybe it depends on torso length and upper body length.

[1:48] Hadley Fraser: I think I'm discovering today that I've obviously got quite a squat torso.

[1:54] Hadley Fraser: So I always knew I was quite narrow chested.

[1:57] Hadley Fraser: As opposed to yourself, who's quite broad and…

[1:59] Ramin Karimloo: Well, we'll talk about that.

[2:01] Hadley Fraser: OK.

[2:02] Ramin Karimloo: We will, actually.

[2:03] Hadley Fraser: OK, grand.

[2:04] Hadley Fraser: Because you're the reason for it.

[2:05] Ramin Karimloo: What?

[2:06] Hadley Fraser: Oh, am I?

[2:07] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[2:08] Hadley Fraser: OK.

[2:09] Hadley Fraser: Just to finish off this fine point.

[2:10] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[2:11] Hadley Fraser: It begs the question, when they decide to build these chairs…

[2:12] Ramin Karimloo: Ergonomically.

[2:13] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[2:14] Ramin Karimloo: What?

[2:15] Hadley Fraser: Is it a Norwegian company?

[2:16] Ramin Karimloo: They're relatively…

[2:17] Hadley Fraser: They're very good about tall, all of…

[2:18] Ramin Karimloo: Ah, I see what you mean.

[2:19] Hadley Fraser: You know what I mean?

[2:20] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[2:21] Hadley Fraser: I do.

[2:22] Hadley Fraser: I sort of feel like I'm part…

[2:23] Ramin Karimloo: I believe we are.

[2:24] Hadley Fraser: Not tall.

[2:25] Ramin Karimloo: We'll get it in the edit.

[2:26] Hadley Fraser: Someone just walks in.

[2:27] Ramin Karimloo: There you go.

[2:29] Hadley Fraser: So, it depends.

[2:30] Hadley Fraser: We should find out where these are made.

[2:31] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, because I'm not going to buy any chairs from this manufacturer.

[2:32] Hadley Fraser: No, but if you're Scandinavian, perhaps, these are the chairs for you.

[2:33] Ramin Karimloo: Or just long in the torso.

[2:34] Hadley Fraser: Long in the torso.

[2:35] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[2:36] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[2:37] Hadley Fraser: I feel very…

[2:38] Hadley Fraser: I feel like I've sort of got my elbows on a wall.

[2:39] Ramin Karimloo: Right.

[2:40] Hadley Fraser: You know what I mean?

[2:41] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[2:42] Hadley Fraser: Like, I'm peeking over the wall like a sort of interested child or curious dog.

[2:43] Hadley Fraser: However, I'm very comfortable in these chairs.

[2:44] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[2:45] Hadley Fraser: So, well done.

[2:46] Ramin Karimloo: I'm going to get one.

[2:47] Hadley Fraser: Thank you.

[2:48] Ramin Karimloo: Thank you.

[2:49] Hadley Fraser: Thank you.

[2:50] Ramin Karimloo: Thank you.

[2:51] Hadley Fraser: Thank you.

[2:52] Ramin Karimloo: Thank you.

[2:53] Hadley Fraser: Thank you.

[2:54] Ramin Karimloo: Thank you.

[2:55] Hadley Fraser: Thank you.

[2:56] Ramin Karimloo: Thank you.

[2:57] Hadley Fraser: Thank you.

[2:58] Ramin Karimloo: Thank you.

[2:59] Hadley Fraser: Thank you.

[3:00] Ramin Karimloo: Thank you.

[3:01] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, well done.

[3:02] Ramin Karimloo: I might get one.

[3:04] Hadley Fraser: You've got a…

[3:05] Ramin Karimloo: By the office.

[3:06] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[3:07] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, you started me.

[3:08] Hadley Fraser: You kicked off the whole fitness thing for me.

[3:09] Ramin Karimloo: I don't think I did.

[3:10] Hadley Fraser: You did.

[3:11] Hadley Fraser: You were sort of working out and things anyway, though.

[3:12] Ramin Karimloo: I was doing Saturday night t-shirt muscle sort of workouts.

[3:13] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[3:14] Ramin Karimloo: But at that point…

[3:15] Hadley Fraser: Okay.

[3:16] Ramin Karimloo: So, at that point, I was getting…

[3:18] Ramin Karimloo: You know when you do self-tapes and your agent gives you a little feedback?

[3:21] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[3:22] Ramin Karimloo: I got the old, hey, be careful of the angle of the camera when you sit down.

[3:27] Hadley Fraser: You just look a bit pudgy.

[3:28] Ramin Karimloo: Oh.

[3:29] Hadley Fraser: How old were you at the time?

[3:32] Ramin Karimloo: I must have been early 30s, maybe 30, 31.

[3:35] Hadley Fraser: Was that a dent to the pride?

[3:37] Ramin Karimloo: I blamed the shirt.

[3:38] Hadley Fraser: At that point, I blamed the shirt.

[3:39] Ramin Karimloo: Blamed the tailor.

[3:42] Hadley Fraser: And then, yes, because then I did Valjean with you in Les Mis.

[3:49] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[3:50] Hadley Fraser: And opening night, I'm getting dressed.

[3:53] Hadley Fraser: Sir Cameron walks in.

[3:54] Ramin Karimloo: Sir Cameron McIntosh, our producer.

[3:55] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[3:56] Ramin Karimloo: And at that point, my shirt was off because I was putting the brand on.

[3:58] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[3:59] Ramin Karimloo: He goes, well, someone's in their 30s, darling.

[4:02] Hadley Fraser: And he pointed at my belly.

[4:05] Ramin Karimloo: So that's…

[4:06] Hadley Fraser: That's the reason.

[4:07] Ramin Karimloo: That's another sign.

[4:08] Hadley Fraser: Okay.

[4:09] Ramin Karimloo: That was probably more of a contributing factor there, wasn't it?

[4:11] Hadley Fraser: And let me just say, it didn't bother me at all.

[4:13] Ramin Karimloo: Okay.

[4:14] Hadley Fraser: It was right.

[4:15] Hadley Fraser: And I'm not sensitive like that.

[4:16] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[4:17] Hadley Fraser: Oddly, I'm more sensitive now.

[4:18] Hadley Fraser: The more in shape I get now, the less secure I am about my body.

[4:21] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[4:22] Hadley Fraser: See, I think that's age though.

[4:23] Hadley Fraser: I think, you know, that insecurities grow and grow as you get older.

[4:27] Ramin Karimloo: Even though, without sounding like a dick, I feel like I'm in the best shape of my life.

[4:31] Hadley Fraser: Good for you.

[4:32] Ramin Karimloo: But what I'm saying is I get more insecure when aesthetically, I feel like…

[4:40] Hadley Fraser: That's great.

[4:41] Ramin Karimloo: Listen.

[4:42] Hadley Fraser: I'm so pleased to hear you.

[4:43] Ramin Karimloo: No, it's terrific.

[4:44] Hadley Fraser: You look amazing.

[4:45] Ramin Karimloo: What are you talking about?

[4:46] Hadley Fraser: No, no, no.

[4:47] Ramin Karimloo: You were never a Muscle Mary.

[4:48] Hadley Fraser: You don't need to be that.

[4:49] Ramin Karimloo: No, I suppose I wasn't.

[4:50] Hadley Fraser: Am I allowed to say Muscle Mary?

[4:51] Ramin Karimloo: I guess so.

[4:52] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[4:53] Ramin Karimloo: I don't think Mary would be upset.

[4:54] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[4:55] Ramin Karimloo: No.

[4:56] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[4:57] Ramin Karimloo: No, that's fine.

[4:58] Hadley Fraser: Apologies to Mary.

[4:59] Ramin Karimloo: Listen.

[5:00] Hadley Fraser: So, that was the second thing.

[5:01] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[5:02] Hadley Fraser: And then one night, I think I'm watching a film with Mandy.

[5:03] Ramin Karimloo: I looked down and she looked at me.

[5:05] Hadley Fraser: My hands are resting on my stomach.

[5:07] Hadley Fraser: You know when you're like that?

[5:08] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[5:09] Hadley Fraser: I was like, oh.

[5:10] Hadley Fraser: Better do something about that.

[5:11] Hadley Fraser: Should do something about that.

[5:12] Ramin Karimloo: And now, fast forward, we're in Florida, Disneyland, after a day in the park.

[5:21] Hadley Fraser: At that point, in the hotel, there's like infomercials all the time.

[5:25] Hadley Fraser: Nothing else on TV.

[5:26] Ramin Karimloo: So, while we're getting ready for bed, the infomercial's on and it's Insanity.

[5:29] Hadley Fraser: That program.

[5:30] Ramin Karimloo: Yes.

[5:31] Hadley Fraser: You ready to get insane?

[5:32] Ramin Karimloo: Shaun T.

[5:33] Hadley Fraser: Shaun T, yeah.

[5:34] Ramin Karimloo: And I kept watching that because it was on every night.

[5:35] Ramin Karimloo: I'm like, well, of course that's going to work if you do it.

[5:37] Hadley Fraser: It's no gimmick.

[5:38] Ramin Karimloo: That's hard work.

[5:39] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[5:40] Ramin Karimloo: And then, I got onto Facebook.

[5:42] Ramin Karimloo: When I was on Facebook and when you were on Facebook, which you no longer are, I saw a photo of you.

[5:47] Hadley Fraser: And I was like, Mandy, look at Hadley.

[5:50] Ramin Karimloo: She looked amazing.

[5:51] Hadley Fraser: So, I messaged you and I said, dude, I got to say, you're looking great.

[5:55] Ramin Karimloo: What are you doing?

[5:56] Hadley Fraser: And you said, funny enough, I've been doing this thing called Insanity.

[5:58] Ramin Karimloo: And I said, Mandy's doing Insanity.

[6:01] Hadley Fraser: And Mandy goes, I've just ordered it.

[6:04] Ramin Karimloo: I didn't realize she'd just done it.

[6:05] Hadley Fraser: It all happened like that.

[6:07] Ramin Karimloo: I was like, that's what Hadley's doing.

[6:09] Hadley Fraser: And I thought, you looked amazing.

[6:11] Ramin Karimloo: And I was aging.

[6:12] Hadley Fraser: I felt that way and I was like-

[6:14] Ramin Karimloo: Tell me, rest.

[6:15] Hadley Fraser: Tell me, rest.

[6:16] Hadley Fraser: I was like, I got to do something about it.

[6:17] Hadley Fraser: And if it's working for you and you're doing it, I'm going to do it.

[6:20] Ramin Karimloo: I only did it because of very vain reasons, because I had to get my top off in a show for Pajama Gaming.

[6:26] Hadley Fraser: What was it? 2013?

[6:29] Ramin Karimloo: Maybe something like that.

[6:30] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, that's right.

[6:31] Ramin Karimloo: And yeah, so I did that and then I sort of didn't bother after that moment.

[6:37] Hadley Fraser: But I have to say, I did do it for vanity reasons, of course, at that point.

[6:42] Ramin Karimloo: But now I go because I just find the mental-

[6:45] Hadley Fraser: Do you find it better for your state of being?

[6:48] Ramin Karimloo: 100%.

[6:49] Hadley Fraser: I wish I had the motivation to keep doing it.

[6:53] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, but you have other outlets.

[6:55] Hadley Fraser: I suppose so, yeah.

[6:56] Ramin Karimloo: You're a busy guy.

[6:57] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, not busy enough that I could rule out doing that, you know, three or four times a week.

[7:03] Ramin Karimloo: What are you going to do?

[7:05] Hadley Fraser: It's about making excuses.

[7:06] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, it is about making-

[7:07] Hadley Fraser: Is that what we're here to talk about?

[7:09] Ramin Karimloo: Are we here to talk about fitness?

[7:10] Hadley Fraser: No.

[7:11] Ramin Karimloo: Because that's not something I feel necessarily overly qualified to do.

[7:14] Hadley Fraser: I'm not qualified to talk about it.

[7:16] Ramin Karimloo: I just do it, but I'm not qualified to talk about it.

[7:18] Hadley Fraser: But I just want to give you props for, you helped change my life.

[7:21] Ramin Karimloo: Oh, thanks.

[7:22] Hadley Fraser: Well, I wouldn't go that far.

[7:23] Hadley Fraser: I think you were going that way anyway, and I think it helped that Mandy then got-

[7:26] Ramin Karimloo: Going which way?

[7:27] Hadley Fraser: But that's something that I've always admired about you, and I mean this sincerely, is that you've always been very good about going, I want to do X, I'm going to devote time to learning how to do it, to putting the time in to do it, to devoting oneself to doing it.

[7:42] Ramin Karimloo: And you still do that to this day.

[7:45] Hadley Fraser: And I think about when we first started writing together and so on and so forth, you know, like playing the guitar, playing the banjo, playing the piano.

[7:52] Hadley Fraser: That was something that I don't think you've done a great deal of, is that fair to say?

[7:55] Ramin Karimloo: So you basically just went, right, I'm going to teach myself, I'm going to seek out learning from other people, have a lesson from that person over there who's going to be the best person to collaborate with.

[8:04] Hadley Fraser: And now, I mean, you're a better guitarist than I am.

[8:07] Ramin Karimloo: Get out!

[8:09] Hadley Fraser: You probably are.

[8:10] Ramin Karimloo: Go on.

[8:11] Hadley Fraser: There we are.

[8:12] Ramin Karimloo: But I have to say, it's something that I find continually, this is just going to be a sort of mutual admiration fest.

[8:18] Hadley Fraser: If it is, that's fine.

[8:19] Ramin Karimloo: Maybe in the beginning.

[8:20] Hadley Fraser: We'll get to the side in one hand.

[8:21] Ramin Karimloo: It's all about the hang.

[8:22] Hadley Fraser: That's the whole point.

[8:23] Ramin Karimloo: There you are.

[8:24] Hadley Fraser: So that's something I find very inspiring, that you continually find the motivation to self-educate, self-improve, however you want to call it.

[8:35] Ramin Karimloo: And that's something that I feel is really easy to lose as you get older in life.

[8:39] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, but don't you find the more success you get as well, and you do some awesome things, I don't want it to end.

[8:45] Ramin Karimloo: I don't want to feel like, they say, I don't know, the higher you go up the ladder, the harder it is to fall down.

[8:53] Hadley Fraser: And I don't want to rest on laurels.

[8:54] Ramin Karimloo: And I think if you rest on laurels, and you just do the same thing at some point, how are you improving?

[9:01] Hadley Fraser: How are you growing?

[9:03] Ramin Karimloo: Completely agree, yeah.

[9:04] Hadley Fraser: Why would anyone, if you're doing the same thing all the time, worry?

[9:09] Ramin Karimloo: Is that why you keep sort of seeking out new things, and new experiences, and new, you know what I mean?

[9:16] Hadley Fraser: Is it just-

[9:17] Ramin Karimloo: 100%.

[9:18] Hadley Fraser: That's why I'm even doing this.

[9:19] Ramin Karimloo: Like, I don't know what I'm doing.

[9:20] Hadley Fraser: I just, when you have support of a label behind you, and the Broadway podcast network, saying, I think this would be great, you should do it.

[9:25] Ramin Karimloo: I think, well, if you think I should do it, then I'll give it a shot.

[9:30] Hadley Fraser: And that's what happened with Valjean, when Cameron was like, do me a favour and play Valjean.

[9:33] Ramin Karimloo: It's the first time I talked myself into audition.

[9:37] Hadley Fraser: Really?

[9:38] Ramin Karimloo: Well, he offers me the part, and I go, this was during the Phantom 25th, I said, well, let's get this out of the way.

[9:44] Ramin Karimloo: I'm going to come sing it for you.

[9:45] Hadley Fraser: Because I didn't think I could sing it.

[9:46] Ramin Karimloo: And even now, if they want me to do it, I'd be like, I don't think I can sing it.

[9:50] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, yeah, you could.

[9:51] Ramin Karimloo: Remember, you were there?

[9:54] Hadley Fraser: I don't.

[9:55] Ramin Karimloo: See, I have a really bad memory.

[9:57] Hadley Fraser: Where was this?

[9:58] Ramin Karimloo: It was downstairs.

[9:59] Hadley Fraser: Where was Mamma Mia?

[10:00] Ramin Karimloo: That theatre?

[10:01] Hadley Fraser: Prince Edward?

[10:02] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[10:04] Hadley Fraser: And we had to do the confrontation.

[10:07] Ramin Karimloo: Oh, yeah.

[10:08] Hadley Fraser: We didn't rehearse.

[10:09] Ramin Karimloo: They were like, let's just see what you guys do.

[10:11] Hadley Fraser: And then they go sing.

[10:12] Ramin Karimloo: Did we do it seriously?

[10:13] Hadley Fraser: Well, we couldn't mess around then.

[10:16] Ramin Karimloo: Is that what you mean, serious?

[10:17] Hadley Fraser: Like, we did it seriously?

[10:18] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, could we do it?

[10:19] Hadley Fraser: Who was there in the room?

[10:20] Ramin Karimloo: Cameron.

[10:21] Hadley Fraser: Do you really remember this?

[10:22] Ramin Karimloo: Trevor.

[10:23] Hadley Fraser: Right.

[10:24] Ramin Karimloo: James Orange, who was casting then.

[10:26] Hadley Fraser: Right.

[10:27] Ramin Karimloo: Okay.

[10:28] Hadley Fraser: There's one more person.

[10:29] Ramin Karimloo: Maybe the director.

[10:30] Hadley Fraser: Okay.

[10:31] Ramin Karimloo: Chris Key, maybe.

[10:33] Hadley Fraser: And then we had to do the confrontation.

[10:34] Ramin Karimloo: And then they go Remy and sing the prayer.

[10:35] Hadley Fraser: And then you sat down.

[10:36] Ramin Karimloo: I was like, why?

[10:37] Hadley Fraser: Did anyone else sit down to watch?

[10:38] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[10:39] Hadley Fraser: That's temerity, isn't it?

[10:40] Ramin Karimloo: That's too much.

[10:41] Hadley Fraser: I should have come out at that point.

[10:42] Ramin Karimloo: I probably was just very intrigued.

[10:43] Hadley Fraser: Was I playing Javert at the time?

[10:44] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[10:45] Hadley Fraser: Oh, there you are then.

[10:46] Ramin Karimloo: How great was that four months together?

[10:47] Hadley Fraser: Oh, it was really great fun.

[10:48] Ramin Karimloo: It sort of felt like we'd come full circle in a way.

[10:49] Hadley Fraser: You know what I mean?

[10:50] Ramin Karimloo: Like, my love for Les Mis is...

[11:52] Hadley Fraser: I felt like accelerated aging though, to go from Marius to Javert in 10 years, like Michael's just done it and did Marius in the very first, when was that? 1984? 1985? Something like that. And he's just playing Javert now. Like that feels right to me.

[12:10] Ramin Karimloo: Yes, true.

[12:11] Hadley Fraser: I did it in, I think under 10 years, which feels like... What's happening? I don't know. Accelerated aging.

[12:17] Ramin Karimloo: Well done, Michael.

[12:18] Hadley Fraser: Well, there you go. I mean, are we allowed to talk about this? Would you go back and do it again if they said, if the timing was right, you know?

[12:27] Ramin Karimloo: I don't think Les Mis is anything... I don't want to put you on the spot.

[12:29] Hadley Fraser: No, no. We can talk about anything as well. But I don't think Les Mis is anything to say, I don't think you can ever completely say no to. Who knows? If all the cards line up and it makes sense. It's such a good show to be in.

[12:43] Ramin Karimloo: It's a wonderful show.

[12:44] Hadley Fraser: I still love Valjean. Who knew when I never wanted to play it, I always wanted to play Javert.

[12:48] Ramin Karimloo: Now...

[12:49] Hadley Fraser: See, and I wanted to play Valjean.

[12:50] Ramin Karimloo: Let's swap.

[12:51] Hadley Fraser: No, it's far too much like hard work, Valjean.

[12:54] Ramin Karimloo: It is. It is, man.

[12:58] Hadley Fraser: I can't think about... I have a friend and we have a toast every time we see one another and the toast is no heavy lifting. And Valjean just feels like such heavy lifting.

[13:09] Ramin Karimloo: All night long. You know what I mean? And that's funny because when I came out of college, that was the sort of role that I coveted and role that I was desperate for. The heavy lifting role with the high B flats and the showy offy thing. And now I just go, just give me the one where I can, you know, mutter along in the middle of my range, have a cup of tea, a little dull roar at an F sharp. And that's fine. And that's all good, you know?

[13:33] Hadley Fraser: Now, I suppose I'm being facetious slightly, but those, they are an undertaking, those parts, aren't they? I mean, you specialise in them to a certain extent, don't you? You know what I mean? Like those.

[13:43] Ramin Karimloo: But it's getting to a point now where I get, I have a bit more anxiety about singing these days.

[13:48] Hadley Fraser: Massively. Yeah.

[13:50] Ramin Karimloo: I think.

[13:51] Hadley Fraser: Do you think that's an age thing or just an experience thing or just because that's what happens when you get older?

[13:56] Ramin Karimloo: Maybe all of the above. Maybe we're not, we've been very lucky to have to diversify our careers, to go, you with plays, film and TV. I'm shooting film now. So we're not in that eight show a week grind.

[14:08] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[14:11] Ramin Karimloo: You get tour fit, don't you?

[14:13] Hadley Fraser: I guess so. Yeah, you do.

[14:15] Ramin Karimloo: So when I look back and I get anxious about doing eight shows a week, because I'd like to be back in a show at some point. And I start myself thinking, why am I getting anxious? You've done it for 10 years. Non-stop.

[14:27] Hadley Fraser: Yeah. I think that's age. I mean, I'm starting eight shows a week again in March.

[14:34] Ramin Karimloo: Which I'm so excited I get to see it this time.

[14:36] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, you didn't see it last time.

[14:38] Ramin Karimloo: No.

[14:40] Hadley Fraser: Which is at the Garrick Theatre.

[14:42] Ramin Karimloo: Your home.

[14:43] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[14:44] Ramin Karimloo: Your home from home.

[14:45] Hadley Fraser: I know. I think it'll be my fourth show at the Garrick, I think.

[14:46] Ramin Karimloo: Fourth show.

[14:47] Hadley Fraser: Well, we did. That's not quite technically true. Two of those were in rep with each other. So I suppose there's my third stint working with wonderful Sir Kenneth.

[14:56] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, that's right. I can't even remember when that was. Maybe three or four years ago now.

[15:03] Hadley Fraser: I remember because I picked you up one night.

[15:05] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[15:07] Hadley Fraser: We went out for a dinner or something. And I was out front. I go, I'm out front. Hop in. And you hopped in.

[15:12] Ramin Karimloo: That's right.

[15:13] Hadley Fraser: You had the biggest beard.

[15:14] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, that was a big beard. I don't think my beard's been bigger than that. I was proud of that beard.

[15:17] Hadley Fraser: Your best beard?

[15:20] Ramin Karimloo: When I was Valjean in Canada.

[15:22] Hadley Fraser: Did you just let it go?

[15:23] Ramin Karimloo: That was big time.

[15:25] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[15:26] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah. See, I'd be more confident growing beards now than doing eight shows a week.

[15:32] Hadley Fraser: Let's do that.

[15:34] Ramin Karimloo: I find myself, I suppose that first time we did Les Mis in 2002 together. I mean, not to put too fine a point on it. I could go out drinking and the rest of it, come in the next morning.

[15:44] Hadley Fraser: You could. You did.

[15:45] Ramin Karimloo: I did. And it wouldn't affect the voice, the stamina was there. These days I go, I have to really alter my lifestyle, and that's good.

[15:58] Hadley Fraser: Being a dad, that doesn't make it easier.

[16:03] Ramin Karimloo: Because your energy levels are different.

[16:04] Hadley Fraser: Energy levels are definitely different. Getting up at 6.30 every day is different, especially if you get home from a show the night before at midnight, and you're up six hours later, that's hard.

[16:14] Ramin Karimloo: You know what I find? Even just the energy of your interactions, right away, it's boom, you're going. Even if you're not talking, you can keep your voice, you don't have to say words. But when I do a show in Japan and it's just me, and you wake up, and it's selfish, but you only have yourself to worry about, there's a slower pace, and there is just interacting with people. Your day has started, and it's when kids are young.

[16:41] Hadley Fraser: Yeah. And they notice also, I think, kids, if you are preserving yourself slightly. And then that guilt thing kicks in of going, oh no, man, I'm resting my voice, and my little one wants to play. And now I'm going, I can't play with you, sweetheart, because I need to rest my voice. And suddenly, you know, the burden on, it's a very first world problem, but suddenly you just go, okay, I will, I'll play with you. And then an hour later, you think, well, I'm not going to be able to sing the show tonight.

[17:07] Ramin Karimloo: It breaks my heart, though. I still go through that every now and then. And I'll be like, no, I should rest. And the other day, Hadley's like, Bobo, do you want to come out and play basketball? And I think I was just tired, you know, I was doing long filmings. And I can look out the window and see him playing, shooting hoops on his own. I was like, I looked at him and I'm like, I got to go out. I can't do this. I'm going to cry if I stay in. And we had the best time. But it's just that, why didn't I just say yes right away? But you're trying to balance so much, and you think you're doing it right. And then you see a lonely little Hadley playing basketball in slow-mo, black and white on his own.

[17:39] Hadley Fraser: So you have to do that, I suppose. And now I think about myself, you know, whenever we started in the business 20 years ago, and I remember thinking about, I mean, I don't want us to get into like, parents have it bad, because no one forces you to have a kid. Like this is our responsibility. And I don't want to moan about it, because it's wonderful. But I think about how I saw parents back then, I went, why are they, like, why are they going home? Like, why aren't they coming out for a beer? And now I think, oh, my God, all I want to do is go home.

[18:07] Ramin Karimloo: Love going home.

[18:08] Hadley Fraser: Isn't it the best?

[18:09] Ramin Karimloo: Okay, be honest.

[18:10] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[18:11] Ramin Karimloo: The idea of coming in today, just to do this.

[18:13] Hadley Fraser: Was lovely, actually.

[18:15] Ramin Karimloo: Go on.

[18:16] Hadley Fraser: The idea now of being, and this is where I really have to catch myself, because you have to think about how much we gave to be doing what we're doing, and how many other people would give to be doing what we're doing now.

[18:30] Ramin Karimloo: But I suppose six months into a run in the theatre, it gets to about that 3.30 time, especially in the winter, and you go, oh, man, I got to go in, I got to get on the train, I got to go and give the gift of laughter to a thousand-odd people, you know, and that's the moment where you go, ah, coming in to do this was, you know, this was lovely.

[18:52] Hadley Fraser: I'm glad you say that.

[18:53] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, there you go.

[18:54] Hadley Fraser: You know, a real wake-up call for me, and thank God it happened early, was I think I was Phantom at the time, and this lovely older couple on a matinee came to stage door, I'm talking to them, and they said, this was amazing, it met and exceeded our expectations, we were saving three months for these tickets, and I will never leave them, because I thought, I'm not saying I hit a home run every show. I know I try to. The rest is...

[19:20] Ramin Karimloo: In the lap of the gods, yeah.

[19:25] Hadley Fraser: And I'm the beholder, or you're the beholder, or whatever, because I don't, it's not for me to say that was a great show or not, right? But we're there with the right intention.

[19:34] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[19:35] Hadley Fraser: Imagine that was a show where you...

[19:39] Ramin Karimloo: Just dialed it in?

[19:40] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, I can't do that, man. I'd rather just...

[19:44] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, that was hard work, but I was all in.

[19:46] Hadley Fraser: How do you feel, then, if you know you're sick, you know your voice is gone or something and you have to take a night or two off?

[19:54] Ramin Karimloo: If you can't do it, you can't do it. Because it's a big thing at the moment, isn't it? You know, there was a bit of a thing about, I believe, about Alfie and Matt and people going off in Les Mis, and I know people feel very strongly about this, but how do you feel about it?

[20:06] Hadley Fraser: Look, it's hard when it's advertised, especially for the talent, on equal par of the show, I guess, in that situation. That's a unique situation, but at the end of the day, humans are humans.

[20:16] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[20:17] Hadley Fraser: You can only do so much.

[20:18] Ramin Karimloo: Agreed.

[20:19] Hadley Fraser: And I don't know what to say, each to their own. As long as you know you've done all you can to make it happen, a 12-month contract, eight shows a week or six shows a week if you have an alternate, depending on a part, like Valjean. At some point, if you get sick, you get sick.

[20:35] Ramin Karimloo: And I don't think any amount of technique or steroid injections, if your body's saying enough's enough.

[20:40] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, you've got to have a rest.

[20:41] Ramin Karimloo: It is what it is.

[20:42] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, exactly. Especially if you're going to do yourself long-term damage in the future and you're going to damage the show in a more sort of metaphorical context. If someone is going to come and see the show and not going to get the best experience because you're under, I think that's okay.

[20:57] Ramin Karimloo: And I get it.

[20:59] Hadley Fraser: I get it.

[21:00] Ramin Karimloo: I get it.

[21:01] Hadley Fraser: I'm sure there are people who have paid that money to see a certain person.

[21:03] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[21:04] Hadley Fraser: But it is what it is, you know.

[21:05] Ramin Karimloo: I tell you, man, that's why I love doing plays.

[21:06] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[21:07] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah. Not having to worry about the voices.

[21:09] Hadley Fraser: I bet.

[21:10] Ramin Karimloo: It's such a blessing.

[21:11] Hadley Fraser: I bet.

[21:12] Ramin Karimloo: Do you find yourself sirening, threatened like, hmm?

[21:15] Hadley Fraser: Certainly not if I'm doing plays. If I'm doing a musical, I'm now so conscious about my voice.

[21:21] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[21:22] Hadley Fraser: Because we're going to go have dinner after this, and you made a point.

[21:27] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[21:28] Hadley Fraser: You're not having any alcohol.

[21:29] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[21:30] Hadley Fraser: Reason?

[21:31] Ramin Karimloo: Are you prepping for a seat of angels?

[21:32] Hadley Fraser: Yeah. I would say that's true. Just in general, I felt, I feel that I'm better when I don't drink now.

[21:43] Ramin Karimloo: In the days as well, I have more energy to do things.

[21:46] Hadley Fraser: More energy to write.

[21:47] Ramin Karimloo: Of course.

[21:48] Hadley Fraser: More energy to stay concentrated and then do other things as well. But yeah, it's probably 50-50 between that. And also because when I finished at the National a couple of weeks ago, I just went, oh, this is great. And you know, you put the fire on and suddenly you think, oh, I'll have a beer or I'll have a glass of wine, and then suddenly it becomes a bottle.

[22:07] Ramin Karimloo: And so that's just a little thing to kind of go, oh, hang on a minute, maybe I'm using this as a bit of a crutch rather than as a treat, as a reward or whatever.

[22:14] Hadley Fraser: Did you get to a point where you were, you know, come two o'clock and you were thinking about it?

[22:19] Ramin Karimloo: Oh, yeah.

[22:20] Hadley Fraser: I was doing that with Mandy back when the weather was nicer and Gin was kind of thirst for Gin.

[22:25] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? And we'd be filming and I would start getting excited, you know, because if you have a long day filming and you have a couple of scenes left, there's that slight little dip of energy and you find a way to bring it up.

[22:37] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[22:38] Ramin Karimloo: What was getting me excited was, a couple more hours, I'll have that Gin. And then I kept talking to myself, do I have a problem? I'm only having one. And then I'd ask Mandy, like, we're good, right? Yeah. We don't need, we don't have to have the Gin, but we are. But it's nice to. And then I realised I was having this conversation with myself and her every day for the past two months. I said, OK, enough Gin for now.

[23:00] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, it's, I think, I think being able to call a halt to it probably means that everything's fine, isn't it? But I definitely think that I'm sort of looking ahead and going, right, let me just check in with myself that I know that when March comes back round again, I know that I can live that existence that I need to live, cut all of that out so I can be on six days a week for five or six months or whatever it is.

[23:44] Hadley Fraser: Funny which as I suppose the sort of ten o'clock number. The end of act 2 and then there's another jail at the end. It's actually not low. It's not a huge huge thing but it's certainly in that register now where I think I can't just do it unthinkingly, right? I can't, I can't just live a life unthinkingly and then expect my voice to be there. So you're gonna when you get into the running things, how are you with warming up?

[24:11] Ramin Karimloo: Religious now really?

[24:13] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, and I used to be no.

[24:15] Ramin Karimloo: You sent to be?

[24:17] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, I used to be very blase about that, but now I'm very religious. I find myself sirening during the day too.

[24:26] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, I don't need to but even when you're filming and not 100% really, you know.

[24:31] Hadley Fraser: On set at Holby.

[24:33] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, can we take a lining and just... What am I doing? Why am I just... Because that's just one that's just in you now, isn't it? It's just...

[24:46] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, I still do the... Yeah, I'm fine. Let's go.

[24:52] Ramin Karimloo: Even before filming, that's incredible. No reason do you know?

[24:56] Hadley Fraser: Oh, that's just that's inbuilt in you now, isn't it?

[24:58] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, that's never gonna go but I guess 'cause singing is not far is always around the corner whether it's a concert. Yeah, I guess Japan. You've always got something in the pipeline there, haven't you?

[25:07] Hadley Fraser: I don't think, I mean, I'm not that I don't have that sort of necessarily that schedule sort of booked out so I don't, you know, yeah to a certain extent. Sometimes I just go, I know I'm not singing for another six months.

[25:14] Ramin Karimloo: No, next 18 months is crazy. Not much too like the producers of Holby's are so good to write around everything. But part of me sometimes went, what if they just said no? Had one thing to worry about but they're like we'll work around your schedule. We know you do other things. Yeah, great. Great. Thank you. And at the time I think that is amazing. Then I look at my calendar, I was like, why didn't you say no? How far in advance are you booked up then?

[25:48] Hadley Fraser: I think to like an opera singer like middle to 21 right now, 2021. And we are a hobby or because of concerts and tours and all other things everything very grateful. It's amazing. However, so you're warming up is that something you'll always wait to do at the theater?

[26:04] Hadley Fraser: It depends how the voice is feeling if I wake up my voice is feeling okay, I'll trust it and then I'll get to the theater and warm up. And at what point do you think it's just not happening because you rarely go off?

[26:13] Ramin Karimloo: Um, that's why I know about it when you do. I guess so Frankenstein by the end that year I was off more than I'd like to have been. But that was a heavy it wasn't the singing so much. It was like the shouting. Do you find that?

[26:27] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, there was a lot of script in that and it was because it was quite high comedy like Mel Brooks very kind of patter comedy. I felt by the end my stamina had decreased I suppose and I couldn't get back to a sort of level point. Also acid reflux suddenly like as an old person considering, not old person, but as someone who's been in the business a little bit of time now suddenly everyone where's that come from? And why is that affecting me? Again something that 20 years ago I wouldn't even have thought about now I have to go right I have to consider my diets the way that I sleep all of this stuff, which is fine isn't it? It's a first world problem, but I suppose I just have to think about it now. So when do I think it's not there? I guess probably by about two o'clock maybe if you there's no turnaround.

[27:17] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah. Why how about you?

[27:20] Hadley Fraser: I guess I mean, but there's always those times in it. Well, so the default is to go. I'm sure it'll be okay. Yeah, I'll keep going and then you get to the theater and you do the sort of group warm-up and you go, oh god. Oh no, it's just not there. It's totally not. And actually by the end of Frankenstein there was one show that I had to take everything down the octave. I sounded like, you know a sort of mega bass doing it and I had to take three or four days off because I wrecked my voice. Did you ever get that point? Because you know, like sometimes I cut off the company rules like 330, 325 like I don't know what to do. I know now I'm getting more anxious palpitations than you do it. But the worst like would lame is you no matter how you sound you start up with?

[28:04] Hadley Fraser: But that's also the thing isn't it sometimes you can you get through the warm-up and you think oh it's absolutely there and I think there's a there's a significant shift between the warm-up. Yeah, I'm doing it in anger suddenly facing an audience. Sometimes your voice can just let's not relive this. No, I'm getting nervous thing. I feel like I'm on tonight. Yeah. Oh god, put the understudies off. So what are you doing for prep for City of Angels?

[28:27] Ramin Karimloo: Because the reason I ask because I know vocally speaking or just in terms of the play itself all of the above because I find you inspiring as an actor as a person and I know you're a great writer or up-and-coming writer. You're doing a lot of that.

[28:36] Hadley Fraser: I guess so. So trying to and I know you've you've done a lot of workshops and teachings because what's a school you were fish Royal Academy of Music. No, I know that's where you went but there was a school you would teach at for a while.

[28:50] Hadley Fraser: Oh, I taught to um performance preparation Academy in Guilford. Yeah, I'm still mum a patron there amazing. Yeah, I know I would love to audit one of those guys and sit and see what you tell people because I love your work and what I just saw on a...

[29:06] Ramin Karimloo: How I say it's totally what's the play you just did and oh the antipodes antipodes. Yeah, I wanted to go back to my that was one of the best things I've seen you do you were incredible. Oh man, how you just lived in that space as the character. You never dropped the energy never dropped the ball and I remember looking at Alexandra my agent who I came with who you know, well, I was like there is a force to be reckoned here with.

[29:28] Hadley Fraser: I don't know about that. You're a great brother. So I want to know how you prep as an actor and now obviously with City of Angels you have to prep the music and voice as well.

[29:38] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, I guess so. So those who will hopefully be listening. Yeah, besides me listening back to this boy, the Hadley's great. I know they're gonna want to hear how you prep.

[29:46] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, I suppose it's changed over the years now. I think I’m a great believer in authorial intent. And I suppose what I mean by that is trying to trying to put across what the author intended rather than trying to put your own stamp on something.

[30:06] Ramin Karimloo: Does that make sense?

[30:08] Hadley Fraser: Makes total sense. And I suppose that's I would hope that then becomes that comes about and it is manifested as a group intention on stage in terms of the cast in terms of what we're doing is either following what the author intends us to do or the director intends us to do rather than what you intend to do. I think I was probably guilty in the first few years of my career of trying to put my stamp on something. Yeah, and possibly there were moments I'm sure there were moments where I was in a different show to other people. Now I suppose I'm most keen to feel like it is I am part of a congruent whole so I suppose that's why the idea of being the sort of front and center lead is less, it's not that it's less appealing, but it's less important to me now.

[31:07] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, I get you.

[31:09] Hadley Fraser: So I did young Frankenstein because I wanted to because I hadn't done a musical comedy for a while and I hadn't been front and center for a while. I've sort of been doing shall we say more supporting roles in plays and I thought you know I want to flex those muscles again. But I suppose I felt in front even in Frankenstein is that it was so important to be part of a team a cog in a machine that works effectively around the other cogs. And so I suppose in terms of looking at a script, I'll say right. What is the author's intent here? What is the stylistic there? What's the style? So for instance City of Angels is written by a brilliant writer comic writer called Larry Gelbart who wrote with all those wonderful old guys like Mel Brooks like Woody Allen like Neil Simon who all came through Sid Caesar's writers room and suddenly you go, right. So how were those guys writing and how were they reacting to another one another in the room? That's the way that they would want their dialogue to be played right?

[32:05] Ramin Karimloo: So City of Angels is is sort of steeped in the history of film noir of that fast patter sort of those black-and-white films. Family guy did a brilliant piss take on those called fast talking high trousers. But really if you've got high trousers and you've talked fast, then you're kind of on the right track with City of Angels, so that's I'm being slightly facetious, but I guess I kind of go back and I think right what's the? Where did this come from as an idea? What research can I do around that to sort of bring that idea to fruition as part of a whole? Does that make sense?

[32:39] Hadley Fraser: Hundred percent and as I it's funny the less you try to make it like put your own stamp on it and you were trying to honor the author and we'll talk about then in the direction and whatnot, but you become selfless. You end up putting your own stamp because Hadley will show up. I guess maybe only one Hadley. There's only one Rosie, there's only one Ramin. Yeah one whoever. Yeah, of course and you stop trying to be something you're...

[33:09] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, I find I get the most satisfaction now when people comment upon the range is perhaps the wrong word, but one's versatility one's flexibility. So if someone said to me, ah, that's amazing that you did X film such-and-such avant-garde play and a Mel Brooks musical comedy and if I was at home in all three of those different things even playing music even writing if I'm at home doing all of those things that gives me more satisfaction than anything else and perhaps sometimes it's easy to be damned by flexibility and one can be a bit too flexible. You know, there's this phrase, isn't there? Jack of all trades and master of none.

[33:56] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[33:56] Hadley Fraser: But I like the ability I admire, especially in other people the ability to be able to retreat into a role and not really exist too much out of it and to do so many different things that the performers I admire are those ones who are able to go from you know straight theater to film to musical comedy and they wouldn't necessarily be the sort of household names, but people like Brian Darcy James.

[34:24] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, that's that for me is so so admirable. We do I think we have those guys over here. We've got people like Douglas Hodge, Jonathan Price someone like that Imelda Staunton Sam Spyro, I find my own wife very inspiring in that context worse. Rosie's just has this ability to kind of shape-shift into doing so many different things and she comes alive in that in that moment. But it's that sort of it's that subsummation in into the that word. I don't know if it is it's a good one into the character and not really exist beyond it. So for instance in the antipodes, I mean we had seven weeks rehearsal which was a hell of a luxury but we really I think we're all in the same show. I would hope so anyway and it became a joy to be a part of a machine where everybody was working together to to tell the same story rather than a disparate one and to tell the same story rather than a disparate one.

[35:35] Ramin Karimloo: So then when you say and not exist outside of that. Yeah in this day and age. Yeah when people are trying to promote themselves so much with social media.

[35:36] Ramin Karimloo: We do it. I'm trying to balance it. Even with this, I don't want to, even when I talk to someone like yourself or anyone, I don't want them to give too much away, but you still want people to get to know you. How do you balance that?

[35:51] Hadley Fraser: I'm not sure. I don't know. Is there a right way of doing it? Do you feel like there's a right way of doing it? I'm still trying to figure it out. I confess I'm not very trustful of it now. I think it's brilliant. When it's used in the right way to connect with people, to converse with people, then it's great. I suppose it is a well-documented fact that social media has its downsides. There are infinite other podcasts and people to talk about that. I suppose from our context, I feel that social media is brilliant in terms of saying, look, this is something that I'm doing. I'd love to connect with people on that, but in terms of showing the rest of my life and the rest of me, that's something that I have a slight lack of trust with now.

I'm very big on not so much showing process. I don't like in rehearsal rooms, people filming overuse of selfies. Like we talked about before when I was seeing you after your play, I want rehearsals to be a room to play in and to fall and whatever. I don't want that to be documented.

[37:09] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, you're right. I suppose there's a balance to find, isn't there? Because one has to remind oneself that there is a real insight to be gleaned, especially for people who aren't necessarily in the business, in terms of seeing inside a rehearsal room. But there is a right way of showing that. And it should be edited.

[37:34] Hadley Fraser: Yeah. I mean, more and more, especially with some of the big musicals, you're finding that PR and publicity is happening in the rehearsal room. And I suppose I understand that there's a tension between that because people want to see sort of where the magic happens. But the flip side of that is that you don't want to see what goes into the sausages.

[37:54] Ramin Karimloo: Right. I want them to promote. I like vegan sausages nowadays. I don't do the meat ones anymore.

[38:01] Hadley Fraser: Really? Not a vegan, but vegan sausages. Very good. I want, yeah, you got to promote the show, but I don't want to promote the process because I don't want to spoon-feed people. There's also something nice, isn't there, about the surprise of seeing it in the flesh. You know that feeling when you do a workshop reading and you perform in the workshop, no sets and whatnot, even if you're still holding scripts, whoever's in the room to watch that, what goes through their mind, because they have to fill in the blanks. They have to build the sets themselves. And that's magic. Sometimes a workshop, and then I've done a workshop of a show and then did a production. I was like, it wasn't as good. It was so good in the room.

[38:39] Ramin Karimloo: I know. Yeah, well, now we've actually got the budget. And then, well, that's the triumph of the imagination, I suppose, isn't it as well. And that's something that I suppose musicals have had a bad rap for throughout history, you know, is that they spoon-feed people, spoon-feed people a sort of false emotion and too much detail. But I think I would fight against that to a certain extent. You know, I think more and more musicals now are allowing people's imaginations to fill in the gaps an awful lot. And I suppose this is a different conversation. But a good musical is a good musical. And a good play is a good play. A bad musical is a bad musical. A bad play is a bad play. You know, I mean, this is something that we've I know, talked about in the past, that sort of bad rap that musicals have.

And I'm not saying beautiful, massive sets, like what you get in Mary Poppins is a bad thing. That's amazing to see, you know, there's a magic to that. But I suppose, yeah, I find the rehearsal period still the most exciting part. Yeah, I don't know how you feel about it.

[39:36] Hadley Fraser: I love that discovery that, like you say, the chance to fall in and pick yourself up. And I suppose nowadays, I think, and actually, to draw it back to what you were talking about in terms of sort of teaching and all of that sort of stuff, especially I did a public masterclass last week, was it at World Academy. And I find that I want to, I'm drawn to and I'm interested in the idea of those being a rehearsal effectively now. Right. And I suppose I think about the run of a play of a musical now almost as an extended rehearsal.

[40:05] Ramin Karimloo: Love that. Is that? Yeah. I mean, I don't want that to sound too sort of clever, clever, because obviously, you have to hit certain marks. And there are ways of doing a particular beat of drama or a particular moment in a song where you've discussed it and rehearsed it with the director or your rest of your cast and you agree upon, you know, a way that perhaps works and tells the story well. Yeah, but for something to be living and breathing, I suppose I'm keen to keep playing around. Yeah, I feel like you're the same, probably.

[40:41] Hadley Fraser: A hundred percent, because I always, my analogy is you go to the theatre every night when you're in a show, right? If there's a diversion, you take that diversion. Absolutely. There's 50, 100, whatever different ways to get there. You'll get there. Yeah. So that's the authorial intent. Yeah. Well, who says you can't? Why not go this? Because someone's done this or something fell or a curveball.

[41:09] Ramin Karimloo: Exactly. The one thing that I resist now is the sort of predetermined muck up or something like that. What did you call it? Rehearsal room laughs.

[41:16] Hadley Fraser: Yeah. So those ones I sort of try and resist a little bit. And we're all guilty of going, Oh, God, I know I can get a good laugh on that. And so I'm going to keep on playing that. And then you quickly learn that actually, that's the one that you feel a bit dirty to.

[41:31] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah. So I suppose that's the preparation side of things. And just without getting your specific process, because I never want to know that. But so you have the script now in front of you. You learn your songs as anyone would. However, when you read music or whatnot, you get it on dictaphone.

[41:48] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[41:53] Ramin Karimloo: And the old mini disc.

[41:56] Hadley Fraser: Yeah. Dropbox folder.

[41:56] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah. But do you actually, in the book scenes, there are book scenes, right?

[42:02] Hadley Fraser: Yeah. How do you break down lines, you put action to lines? I don't mean physical actions, but...

[42:09] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, you mean as in sort of Stanislavski in actions?

[42:13] Hadley Fraser: No, I don't. I mean, I suppose I've done that if I've worked with the director who's been keen on that as a process, but I've only really found that out in the rehearsal room. But I don't do that independently, because I suppose going back to that thing of it being a living, breathing rehearsal, I'm slightly wary of having a sort of an action, again, attached to a line, because then you're going to be playing that one action forever. I think probably there can be different actions for the same line.

[42:48] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, I guess that is an evolution.

[42:53] Hadley Fraser: I suppose so. And again, I don't want this to sound too sort of actorly, but I suppose that's how I think. So what do I do? I don't know if you're the same, but I'm much more inclined now to be off book for the start of rehearsals.

[43:06] Ramin Karimloo: 100%

[43:07] Hadley Fraser: Yeah, because what I find is really, if I'm off book, I haven't made any decisions about where it's going to go. But as soon as you step in the rehearsal room on day one, you have that ability to be able to play from day one.

[43:20] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, why waste time? I don't think rehearsals are necessary to learn what you should have done on your own time. If you got the script on day one, that's different.

[43:28] Hadley Fraser: Yeah. Although I'll counteract that by saying, for something like The Antipodes, we were actually told don't be, because part of the rehearsal process is going to be sort of the learning.

[43:39] Ramin Karimloo: Fine, but that was a specific instruction.

[43:40] Hadley Fraser: Exactly. But the times that I've really enjoyed rehearsals have been the times that I have been off book. And that's sometimes been expressed like before Winter's Tale, Ken said to us, you need to be off book for day one. And we had blocked. Had we blocked the entire show? Or was it at the first half? I can't remember. It was one of them, of a Shakespeare play. And we had a run through in the room at the end of act one, everybody off book at the end of week one. And it was incredible. The other one that springs to mind is Long Day's Journey Into Night, which is three and three quarter hours of Eugene O'Neill, you know, heavy drama. And that was directed by Richard Eyre. And he said, Look, you were really going to benefit if you guys are off book. So we were. And it meant that we were all heads up from day one.

[44:30] Ramin Karimloo: See, this is where I learned this, truly believe this phrase that I heard, discipline equals freedom.

[44:35] Hadley Fraser: Mm hmm. I couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more.

[44:40] Ramin Karimloo: Now you have the freedom because of that discipline.

[44:42] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[44:43] Ramin Karimloo: To play.

[44:44] Hadley Fraser: Yeah.

[44:44] Ramin Karimloo: And that's so much fun.

[44:46] Hadley Fraser: I know. So I guess I'll try and go into City with that off book. I mean, we've done the show before. So I should hope I remember bits of it. I certainly remember the music because it's one of my favourite schools anyway. And I knew it. I had done it at university.

[45:00] Ramin Karimloo: Really?

[45:01] Hadley Fraser: Yeah. Although I played Stone. So it's actually one of the few musicals that I would be able to sing the lyrics to. Even, even Les Mis, I can't remember the lyrics.

[45:14] Ramin Karimloo: Are you like me? Because now, you know, I've got secret. I can't remember the lyrics anyway.

[45:17] Hadley Fraser: But I'm doing Chess in Japan in January. I don't know when this will come out. But yeah, anyhow, I put on the CD last night, because I try and do one thought at a time, one show at a time. So I got my concerts out of the way. Now I'll do Chess. I put it on. I was like, I've done the show. When did I sing this? The Mountain Duet, which is beautiful. But I'm like, I don't remember. I don't, I could not. It's literally started over again. My brain can only hold so much at this point.

[45:44] Ramin Karimloo: Well, I feel like Homer Simpson in that regard, like there's only room for like, a tiny little man sort of jumping around.

[45:51] Hadley Fraser: If I got into Les Mis now, I'll start fine with the uh, uh, and then...

[45:55] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, freedom is mine.

[45:57] Hadley Fraser: Are there any shows that you, uh, City of Angels, I would know a lot of the lyrics to and Jesus Christ Superstar, because those are two that I...

[46:09] Ramin Karimloo: Thanks for listening to part one of my hang with Hadley Fraser, actor, musician, writer, and all around great guy. Please tune in for part two, where we will pick off right where we left off with our conversation about the 25th anniversary of the Phantom of the Opera. Don't forget, you can connect with me at dpn.fm forward slash the hang. And on Instagram and Twitter at Ramin Karimloo. The hang is produced by Dori Beristain and Alan Seals from the Broadway Podcast Network. You can find me online at dpn.fm forward slash the hang. Don't forget, you can connect with me on Instagram and Twitter at Ramin Karimloo on YouTube, a roaming Iranian, or my Facebook page, official Ramin Karimloo. Music for my podcast is by my friends and one of my favorite bands, The Dives.

Please check them out at their website, thedivesmusic.com. That's thedivesmusic.com, where you can get to know them, hear their incredible music, get links to all their socials, and most importantly, their tour dates where you can find out where you can see and hear them live. They are truly a great band, and they are phenomenal live. Check them out.