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[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[0:02] Andrew DeWolf: And I am Andrew DeWolf.

[0:00] Jesse McAnally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater. And today we have back one of our favorite guests in the whole world. Truly, from the context of the show, the one guest that convinced us that having guests was a good idea again. It is your favorite YouTuber and mine. It is Ethan from Sideways.

[0:29] Ethan: Hi, guys. Oh, thank you for having me. What the fuck did you have me watch?

[0:35] Jesse McAnally: So it's all good. It's all good. So for the guesting of the Musicals with Cheese reboot, I reach out to guests a thousand years in advance so that I can make sure that we're good. Ethan, I reached out to you and I was like, hey, we're doing a Wizard of Oz thing. We're watching this thing. Something. I didn't even tell you what it was. I was like, I gave you the choice between. No warning. Between weird musical and disturbing puppets.

[1:01] Ethan: And you said, bring on the puppets.

[1:03] Jesse McAnally: I said, bring on the puppets because I was hoping for like Jim Henson energy. OK. You know, something fun. Dark Crystal. Right. And when you said Wizard of Oz, I got crazy excited because one, I love the Wizard of Oz. My favorite movie is just one of the best movies of all time, obviously. Right. But also, I wrote one chapter of my master's thesis on the score to the original Wizard of Oz.

[1:23] Jesse McAnally: Oh, because it's got so much cool stuff in it.

[1:31] Ethan: That's going to help you a lot here.

[1:29] Jesse McAnally: Oh, yeah. So when you were like, hey, we're going to do like a Wizard of Oz sequel, I was like, bet I'm down. It's going to be fun. I think it was fun.

[1:38] Ethan: Sure. It's a it's a it's a real like contrasting piece to the original.

[1:47] Jesse McAnally: Contrasting piece is such a corporate way to say it.

[1:47] Ethan: That's very polite.

[1:47] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Very polite. Yeah. They went in another direction to say, you know, absolutely went in a different direction.

[1:54] Ethan: They're going to circle back to this.

[2:01] Jesse McAnally: Yes. This film, this film involves a lot of circling back, doubling down, revisiting even.

[2:06] Ethan: Yes. And can I say I read the book, The Marvelous Land of Oz in comparison to the other sequels we're covering this month? And as far as you know, anyone knows this is the month that we're going to be covering Wizard of Oz musical sequels where they're attempting to do a sequel to the MGM film and failing.

[2:30] Jesse McAnally: That's a big ask, man. That's a big ask.

[2:30] Ethan: And every one of them falls flat on their frickin face. But this one is the most accurate to the original book.

[2:43] Jesse McAnally: That's what I have read. And this week, in case you haven't picked up what we're throwing down, we are talking about Barry Mann's The Wonderful Land of Oz.

[2:54] Ethan: Well, you can in the land of Oz.

[3:01] Ethan: How'd you like to meet a pumpkin man? The strangest beings and the world began.

[3:08] Ethan: Well, you can in the land of Oz. Through the land of the munchkins, the gillikins, the winkies.

[3:17] Jesse McAnally: So The Wonderful Land of Oz is a film written and directed by Barry Mann, who at the time was kind of lauded for nudie pictures, as they were called at the time. It is based on L. Frank Baum's The Marvelous Land of Oz, and with music and lyrics by George Linsenman and Ralph Falco, respectively. It played in Saturday kiddie matinee venues, starting in October of 1969. But as Ethan told me, it was actually on October 31st, 1969. So we are celebrating it as a Halloween-ish episode, I guess?

[3:52] Ethan: We are recording this on October 29th?

[3:52] Jesse McAnally: We're recording this, yeah. I mean, hey, it scared me, so that works.

[3:56] Ethan: I think it would scare children if you showed it to them.

[4:00] Jesse McAnally: Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. But I think kids would love this. But this film was considered lost to media for many, many years because it wasn't released on VHS. And it's basically been a misreported legend. Like on Turner Classic Movies' website for years, it claimed that Dorothy and Tip were working together in this film, and Dorothy is who is not appearing in this film.

[4:25] Ethan: She's referenced once or twice, but yeah, she doesn't actually show up.

[4:30] Jesse McAnally: This film has a reputation of being the worst Oz adaptation, with an Ed Wood, so bad it's good quality to it.

[4:33] Ethan: I think it's great. I think it's fun. I think, yes, it's bad.

[4:40] Jesse McAnally: I gotta know. I have to know. The plot of The Wonderful Land of Oz is after his witch guardian threatens to turn him into a statue, young Tip runs off to Emerald City with his newly animated companion, Jack Pumpkinhead. Along the way, he meets up with General Ginger, leader of the Army of Revolt, who takes Tip prisoner as she marches her troops to take over the Emerald City.

[5:10] Ethan: This is a great time. The thing is, we describe all of this elements, and we are not representing the experience of watching this film.

[5:18] Jesse McAnally: I'm gonna throw, I'm trying to figure out which one of my good friends I want to throw under the bus to try to describe the backroom-esque quality of this movie.

[5:28] Ethan: Me, me. I'm here. I'm here. Tie me in. Tie me in, coach. It's all yours.

[5:32] Jesse McAnally: It's all yours. I'm ready.

[5:35] Ethan: I say this, so here's the thing. You're like, you really like it, okay? This film is not for me, but I kind of get it in a sort of student film kind of vibe. The fact that the dude, the people behind this movie have experience, it's kind of like I have question marks everywhere. Apparently, they've worked on Errol Flynn films or something. I don't know how you get to this point, but if this was a student film and it was your first foray into it, I'd be like, dude, not bad. Really? I'm talking student film, undergrad, okay? Community college.

[6:05] Jesse McAnally: What it looks like, right, is it looks like, and I say this with love, it looks like somebody set up a camera and shot community theater.

[6:21] Ethan: I literally described it that way to a friend. Every single shot is from the mid-distance, shoulder height, right? There's maybe two or three closeups, no wide shots, nothing to establish. The whole set could fit in someone's garage, right? You could tell they just keep redecorating basically the same space over and over again.

[6:45] Jesse McAnally: It's interesting because I read that too, that it never made it to VHS and it went straight to DVD. Again, it's kind of funny that we're talking about this during spooky season, but something I've seen a lot of people talk about when it comes to older films is that they were shot with the idea in mind that it was going to be on VHS on a small CRT TV, right? When you're watching Alien, you're not supposed to be able to see every single button on every single console, but when you're in super ultra 8K, HD, whatever, you could see everyone's pores.

[7:20] Ethan: I was watching this, obviously, it's on YouTube, we're watching it and whatever. I'm thinking if this is on a grainy TV in the 70s, one of the first generation color TVs where everything's blurry, maybe it would kind of work, but I don't still think that would work. But yeah, this film has a very specific look. I think the community theater note is, it's like a public access show.

[7:49] Ethan: It literally, it's so clearly made with no budget at all. And then the audio quality, oh my god, I know the audio quality.

[8:08] Jesse McAnally: Was it bad?

[8:12] Ethan: Oh, were you not wearing headphones for it? Did you have the volume turned down? Could you not understand everyone's dialogue perfectly?

[8:20] Jesse McAnally: There is, okay, we were talking about this, right? There is a character who's a pumpkin head, right? And he has a giant pumpkin on his head. Great. They just recorded that actor talking while he's got the pumpkin on his head.

[8:36] Ethan: It's impossible to understand what's going on.

[8:52] Jesse McAnally: I think it's a miracle this movie exists.

[8:55] Ethan: I believe it. That's the thing, if you listen to it, you can hear the room. You can tell it is not a large space and it's not soundproofed. This is a rec room or something that they managed to lease out.

[9:07] Jesse McAnally: I think it's a miracle we can still watch it.

[9:11] Ethan: Absolutely. The fact that this isn't lost media is actually quite impressive because I bet you there is thousands of things made around this time at the same level of budget that are just gone.

[9:25] Jesse McAnally: What that means is that there is some hero out there working in a warehouse in the middle of the night, saw an unlabeled tape and was like, sure, I'll give this a shot. Saw this film and I was like, no, this has to be digitized. We have to put it on DVD. We must show the world.

[9:43] Ethan: I am forever grateful to that. I'm imagining some Wizard of Oz fanatic in the 90s hearing rumors about this like, oh, this is the most insanely accurate Wizard of Oz sequel. They have all the things. They even have the tip gender conversation in there, things that no one ever did. And they're just searching for it and searching for it. And then it just drops in the 2000s. And this is what they got. This was their white whale. This could have been this likely was someone's white whale film.

[10:17] Jesse McAnally: Oh, I believe it. A thousand percent. A thousand percent. Yeah.

[10:21] Ethan: And was it worth it? I say yes.

[10:25] Jesse McAnally: So what you say?

[10:25] Ethan: Yes. I feel like there's like a vibe this movie gives.

[10:32] Jesse McAnally: It's unsettling.

[10:31] Ethan: It's interesting.

[10:32] Jesse McAnally: That's a really good way to put it.

[10:34] Ethan: Yeah. It's unsettling. It's kind of like, yeah, I feel like we have a lot of these now where it's like creepy pasta type stuff where it's like there's like an imaginary TV show that like kids are watching or something. And it feels like I'm watching that.

[10:48] Jesse McAnally: Oh, like an SCP Foundation kind of thing.

[10:51] Ethan: Yeah. Where it's like, oh, kids will just stare at the blank TV and they say that they're watching a show, but, you know, the adults can't see it or whatever. But I'm watching that show.

[11:04] Jesse McAnally: Well, that's that's the thing. So like getting into kind of like the nuts and bolts of it, it doesn't really feel like a musical or like a musical film.

[11:14] Ethan: Yeah. So to speak in the first 10 minutes.

[11:16] Jesse McAnally: Right. Because the opening doesn't really serve as like an overture and establishing number as much as it feels like a theme song to a TV show.

[11:25] Ethan: You're right. But I feel like you're addressing something that's wrong, but you're not even addressing it, how wrong it is from the first shot.

[11:32] Jesse McAnally: Do you remember what the first shot of the film is?

[11:36] Ethan: It's the fucking cow.

[11:37] Jesse McAnally: No, that's the second shot of the film.

[11:39] Ethan: Oh, I'm so sorry. My trauma. My bad. What was the first shot?

[11:43] Jesse McAnally: They had the bill to the cow. Like the first shot is just Glinda, Tip and Pumpkinhead standing around doing nothing.

[11:54] Ethan: Oh, my God, it's right. It looks they're just doing it right.

[12:00] Jesse McAnally: That's exactly what this is.

[12:04] Ethan: I genuinely I thought I was like, wait, is there like five minutes before this that I'm missing?

[12:10] Jesse McAnally: I thought the exact I was like, oh, OK, we're like we're missing something. It's starting halfway through. Someone needs to run the film.

[12:15] Ethan: Something like it looks like CCTV footage of some kind of weird Stanford experiment thing.

[12:22] Jesse McAnally: And then it cuts to the fucking cow, which is like, I feel like what is the cow like? What what are we looking?

[12:30] Ethan: The first shot is Tip and Glinda and Pumpkinhead. It looks like a rotting roasted pork.

[12:39] Jesse McAnally: And it's supposed to be a cow's head.

[12:39] Ethan: And then it looks like somebody had stuck their hand through this thing and has a sock puppet on the end of it.

[12:47] Jesse McAnally: And that's the mouth.

[12:47] Ethan: Yeah.

[12:49] Jesse McAnally: And that that'll open up sometimes and go.

[12:51] Ethan: No, the mouth never opens.

[12:53] Jesse McAnally: It's just the eyelashes.

[12:55] Ethan: Yeah, it's the eyelashes.

[12:56] Jesse McAnally: I could have sworn the mouth opens when he moves.

[12:58] Ethan: That's the other one.

[13:00] Jesse McAnally: Oh, that's the other one.

[13:01] Ethan: Yeah, I'm wrong. Pardon me.

[13:02] Jesse McAnally: No, but yeah, no.

[13:03] Ethan: And it's supposed to be purple.

[13:04] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, everything's purple.

[13:06] Ethan: OK, they say they say a lot. Everything's purple here.

[13:10] Jesse McAnally: And I was like, oh, that was the news to me.

[13:12] Ethan: Yeah, I was like, really?

[13:14] Jesse McAnally: Well, I'm semi colorblind, so I'm not good with shades, you know.

[13:18] Ethan: And so if things try to be subtle with colors, I need somebody to kind of hold my hand through.

[13:21] Jesse McAnally: It's like, oh, yeah, this is the land of purple.

[13:23] Andrew DeWolf: I'm like, are, are, are we sure about that?

[13:27] Jess McAnally: Oh, gosh.

[13:28] Andrew DeWolf: We we have not made it even to the first song.

[13:31] Jess McAnally: We've made it for the first two shots.

[13:34] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's the second.

[13:35] Jess McAnally: Yeah. Now go through the first song.

[13:36] Andrew DeWolf: Apologies.

[13:38] Jess McAnally: So the first song, it it it pretty much just like lists everything that's there. It doesn't really say anything. And it's called The Land of Oz.

[13:47] Andrew DeWolf: And it's sung by a chorus of people.

[13:50] Jess McAnally: Through the land of the munchkins, the gillikins, the winkies, we'll head for the Emerald City. And if we need advice, we'll ask the Wogglebug. You'll find that he's wise and he's witty. How'd you like to meet our good friend, Tip? The Scarecrow. Tin Man? What a joke. Well, you can take my hand. And we're off to the land. We're off to the land of Oz.

[14:29] Andrew DeWolf: These are all people of different musical capabilities, right? It does not feel like an organized chorus. It feels like they got the cast and a couple of roommates together. And, you know, like there are some people who got all those girls that they have in the in the in the movie that we're going to get. They got to get to that. But it's it's like you when you're listening to the chorus, and I heard this, especially at the end, like you can hear people missing cues and you can hear people coming in a measure too early on accident. You know it like so in just the first like two minutes, right? Like one hundred and eighty seconds. You're looking at this and you're like, OK, is this a rough cut? Is this a demo? You know, are there is this a temp track? Like what what are we actually looking at?

[15:17] Jess McAnally: It beats me, man.

[15:17] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah, I got to say, as terrible as these songs are, they do kind of become earworms. And as I learned from my very good friend Ethan on our episode of on Friday by Rebecca Black, you cannot enjoy or remember a song ironically, there has to be some sort of reason why they stick with you. But the fact that I can pull out the how do you like the meat of pumpkin man? Well, you can in the land of Oz.

[15:47] Jess McAnally: Well, something that they did, and this was really interesting because not everybody does this right was. So first off, sorry, like getting into like the first scene, the one thing that becomes really noticeable is that there's a lot of dead air. There's a lot of like two actors on a set. Maybe one of them is moving. It's a wider shot and there's no audio, there's no music. It's super awkward. But there are shots that do have like a score to it. And the score is basically playing the musical numbers over again, which is something really cool to see in a musical film. Like that was the whole subject of like my master's thesis. And so like to see them do that was like kind of nifty. But also it was very much like, is this like a temp track, like a plan moving forward? You know what I mean?

[16:36] Andrew DeWolf: So if these are earworms and you've watched this more than once, I absolutely believe it. I they do repeat often. And yeah, we have gone into the first two shots and the opening song a little bit. We have not gone into the plot at all. Andrew, I open this up to you.

[17:01] Andrew DeWolf: I can try. Godspeed. I can try. OK, so we have it kind of just opens on this. Like we literally just said this is the opening shot, but pumpkin head tip. Tip is like the main character of a pumpkin and like follows him around a lot. And oh, my God. Mambi Mambi is the witch, right? Mambi, who you remember from Return to Oz as a terrifying witch that removes her head and does all this other stuff here. Less less of that energy. Yeah, but it just kind of opens on the these characters like they're just they're at Mambi's like house or something like that. It's like it's like almost in media res. It's like nothing's really happening. Mambi decides that she doesn't like tip anymore and is going to turn tip into a statue. And tip is minorly inconvenienced by this.

[17:54] Jess McAnally: Yeah. Oh, oh. And there's like I actually kind of forgot about this, but I'm looking at the song list to kind of help my there's the thing, the powder of life, which Mambi uses to bring Jack to life. Jack Pumpkinhead. I don't even remember if this like I guess it does come up again. It does come up again one time. Yes, it does. Mm hmm. OK. There's magical words. Yep, yep, yep. Jesus Christ. I think so. Tip is like, I don't want to be a statue in Mambi. Doesn't turn him into a statue like right away. So he gets a chance to to run away and he takes some of the powder of life with him because Jack might need it or something. Jack comes with him.

[18:39] Jess McAnally: I mean, we have a song that is called I don't want to be a statue. And I'll tell you somewhere over the rainbow, it ain't.

[18:42] Andrew DeWolf: I don't want to be a statue in someone's cloud or bed. Who needs people staring at you or pigeons on your head? I want to run and laugh and sing. I want to go adventuring. I want to be a real, real fool.

[18:47] Jess McAnally: I don't want to stand in one place and watch the world.

[19:31] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my God, this poor kid. He doesn't want to be a statue.

[19:35] Jess McAnally: Oh, my chest. Oh, I this poor kid. Like I, there there are points in this number where you're like, yeah, that's just not the note. And I think this was the best take. We're just going to move forward. And he's got a knife in his hand and he's swinging it all around because he doesn't know what to do with his arms at any point. It's so weird. Like you said, you can't tell if the kid's sick or if this is like take number ten and the kid's not used to doing a lot of singing. But like, you know, his voice is getting like raspy and it's going. And like, you just feel bad. Andrew, can you do an impression of like the vibe of tips performance so that the vibe of the vibe of it's like like barely trying kind of. But I'm not even I don't know. Is this kind of what I get from it?

[20:19] Andrew DeWolf: You know, I can't do a good like bad acting. He he's he slurs at one point an entire sentence. It's literally like the lowest effort you can imagine.

[20:31] Jess McAnally: I don't want to be a statue. I want to be a little boy.

[20:34] Andrew DeWolf: See, that's good. That's like that level of slur.

[20:37] Jess McAnally: Yeah, like literally like I don't give a shit. Get me off the set.

[20:45] Andrew DeWolf: My my favorite, at least my favorite scene, though, which is near the end. It's just the most uncomfortable. And it's like the kid is just like doesn't want to fucking be there.

[20:56] Jess McAnally: I don't want any part of this scene.

[20:57] Andrew DeWolf: Is this where the kid breaks back into the house while mom be sleeping?

[21:02] Jess McAnally: No, that's the next scene. Andrew's talking about the gender change sequence.

[21:04] Andrew DeWolf: I'm betting absolutely that got me. I had no idea that was coming. That was coming out of nowhere at a left field. And then the kid is like, I don't want to be here.

[21:17] Jess McAnally: We got to get to that. We got to get to. There's so much more story to get to. He doesn't want to be a statue, so he just takes off with Jack Pumpkinhead, as he says, his whole government name every time he refers to him.

[21:31] Andrew DeWolf: Well, hold on. This also leads to my favorite shot in the whole movie. So right outside the house, it looks like they went to Home Depot and got a five dollar bag of gravel, but they could only afford the one. So if you look at the ground in front of the house, there's like 12 rocks. And that's and that's this. That's the set.

[21:51] Jess McAnally: It's a good set.

[21:52] Andrew DeWolf: It's I mean, you could have done better.

[21:54] Jess McAnally: You think you could have done better?

[21:55] Andrew DeWolf: I think I feel like I could have caught in two different bags.

[21:59] Jess McAnally: Okay. Okay. Mr. Moneybags up in here.

[22:04] Andrew DeWolf: I saw you flaunt it like that.

[22:06] Jess McAnally: Yeah. Like at that point in the movie, I was just like, okay, so this is this is where we are. Got it. This is our call to adventure moment.

[22:14] Andrew DeWolf: This is the wonderful land of Oz.

[22:16] Jess McAnally: Okay. You're not you're not wonderful.

[22:21] Andrew DeWolf: Wonderfied.

[22:22] Jess McAnally: What the hell are you saying?

[22:23] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, it's definitely fantastical. I'm feeling something.

[22:25] Jess McAnally: Oh, yeah. I love the shots of mom be sleeping when tips breaking in and it just kind of looks like an Instagram live that she accidentally left on.

[22:38] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, we got to keep moving with the plot here.

[22:40] Jess McAnally: Jesus.

[22:41] Andrew DeWolf: But that's okay. But that's the thing, right? It's like if this was for VHS or for like like a lower definition, you wouldn't be able to see every single crease in the prosthetic chin. You know what I mean? This is how people in the 60s experience this on full 35 millimeter film projected at these Saturday matinees now for context. This is a barely a movie length of 70 minutes when tip leaves to Emerald City. We are at the 20 minute mark.

[23:13] Jess McAnally: We have there's so much time just wasted. What like doing Jack on this first set?

[23:20] Andrew DeWolf: Yo, I think there's like three songs on the first set.

[23:24] Jess McAnally: Yep.

[23:25] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, mommy has a song and well and then tip and Jack just kind of say I'm tired. Let's take a nap and Glinda gets a song. We this is our introduction to Glinda, you know, Wicked's favorite character.

[24:10] Jess McAnally: Yeah.

[24:25] Andrew DeWolf: Well, they didn't even introduce her as Glinda. Like there's nothing that like formally lets you know, it's Glinda. I was just like, oh, okay. So Fairy Princess got it. Wizard of Oz. Cool. This could be Glinda. It might not and I have in my notes like, okay, so they spent all the money on the fairy.

[24:40] Jess McAnally: She's got a great voice.

[24:42] Andrew DeWolf: She she does and she apparently she had terrible stage fright and would only ever be in one other film, which was out the next year a Berryman nude picture and then she would never see her face on camera again.

[24:54] Jess McAnally: That's such a shame because she really does. I guess like I don't know if it's the context of the film or not, but like she really did do a great job.

[25:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[25:03] Jess McAnally: She seems to be hired for the voice and she did fight. I think she's like as far as if I had to rank Glinda's she would not be at the bottom.

[25:10] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[25:12] Jess McAnally: Yeah. I'll give you that.

[25:13] Andrew DeWolf: A thousand percent and then like Jack wanders away for some reason leaving tip the boy to just Jack is just like I'm going to help him and then he just leaves literally literally just walks off the set just wanders away.

[25:33] Jess McAnally: And then we introduced General Ginger.

[25:37] Andrew DeWolf: God.

[25:37] Jess McAnally: So there's an army of girls that don't want to do their homework anymore. I don't is there a school like what I don't know.

[25:44] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe yeah.

[25:45] Jess McAnally: So the army an army of girls with knitting needles, right? That's that those are that's their weapons and that's direct from the book that that wasn't like the 70s sexism. That's early 20th century sexism.

[25:57] Andrew DeWolf: No, this is this is very it reads as like anti like second wave feminism type shit. It's like, oh man, we we're tired of doing housework and stuff. We're going to be taken over the place now.

[26:11] Jess McAnally: Yeah, but like but like they're framed as like the villain. So and they're like, oh, we don't want to you don't want to do this and that and the other like it's bad that they don't want to it.

[26:19] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it no, it's as you go through this film. It becomes more and more misogynistic. It though the one thing I did pick up on is that I'm super woke at the end.

[26:33] Jess McAnally: It loops all the way around.

[26:35] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, the one thing the one thing that got me about General Ginger and her army is that all of the outfits look like they're from Sergeant Peppers.

[26:47] Ethan: Like the short, it's like the most 60s thing in the uh, yeah, yeah, between the hair and the mini skirts, it really dates the film.

[26:53] Jesse McAnally: Oh yeah, and I gotta say, I don't hate this actress. I think she's doing, you know, a better job than, you know, little Barry Man nepo baby if we're comparing all the actors to the tip actor. I mean, everyone's doing a great job. I don't think she's actually that good here. I will say when she sings, she has the energy of like, you know, the third best actor in a school play. I mean, she's going for it.

[27:19] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, right. It's that thing where it's like, you know, if you go up on stage, you kind of like half-ass it, it's worse than if you really go for it and suck.

[27:27] Ethan: Yes, you know, so like she's got the energy and she's like committed to it. She also has like one of the three close-ups and it's not a flattering shot and it's just, just the whole thing is super awkward. Like she has a number where she like rallies all of her troops and then everybody's marching and not a single pair are marching in any kind of time together.

[27:52] Jesse McAnally: On this great takeover day, we'll have emeralds on a tray, servants granting every wish, bringing our favorite dish on this great takeover day.

[28:11] Andrew DeWolf: Throw your pencils away, give them to your brother, got no more homework. And I'm not gonna lie, like looking at these ladies together, they kind of read more Jonestown than they do Sergeant Peppers to me. Like they look like the people that you're like that started the cult, you know what I mean? Like I just look at this and I'm like, oh, these were part of like Jim Jones' weird harem he built. It's such a bizarre everything.

[28:44] Ethan: Um, it's really 60s though. It's super incredibly 60s, yeah. Um, and they frankly, I, we don't know much about any human being that is in a Barry Man film, but I'm gonna wager to guess that maybe they were some of the bare-chested ladies that appeared in his previous work.

[29:00] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I read that they weren't, but I was like, how do you have no budget and already a small cast and you find a small army of young women? Are we sure about that? Are we sure?

[29:12] Ethan: I mean, one of the few bits of trivia I was able to pull off for this is, um, basically the people that played the translator and the soldier, he never figured out their names, so no one knows who played them, so they're not listed in the credits. So I'm like, what the fuck, dude? What is this movie?

[29:33] Andrew DeWolf: They used to make movies like it. Like I think I sent you a message just when I was watching this. They used to make a totally different kind of slop.

[29:46] Ethan: Yes. Um, they were hired for one day and paid in cash, so Man never got their names even though they have speaking parts. We will never know who they are. They never probably knew this movie exists and they live on forever.

[30:01] Andrew DeWolf: Um, oh my God, yeah. Barry Man, interesting. Like watching these scenes, it really speaks to like the zero budget because you could tell they're going to get one, maybe two takes because there isn't a single person in the background who knows what the fuck is going on.

[30:20] Ethan: Well, apparently the budget of this film was fifty thousand dollars, which, you know, even then was pretty small. And Man also had to offer his distributor ninety thousand dollars for advertising and promotion, which is almost double what they cost to make the whole movie to advertise the movie.

[30:37] Andrew DeWolf: God, 100, 150 thousand in 1960s money? Yeah, to make this fucking movie. He employed many beginner and newcomers both in cast and crew who received on-the-job training in filmmaking through making the film, as obviously he hired his son as well, and his wife was the script supervisor.

[30:59] Ethan: Um, yeah. Um, I think that explains a lot of how this was made on that side of it. I, I gotta say, I, I kind of like, I, I feel like if this same script was made more competently, it would be more boring, if that makes sense.

[31:14] Andrew DeWolf: I do agree with that. I do think the fact that this is so like shoddily made makes it interesting in a way that it wouldn't be if it was just kind of like competent. They made it competently, but there was just like, yeah, it's like a, you know, or a late 60s like they tried to do Wizard of Oz. It's not really, you know.

[31:30] Ethan: And can we talk about the Scarecrow Jack Pumpkinhead introduction translation scene? Hilarious.

[31:47] Andrew DeWolf: So confused. I really did. It's like this, this is a bit, right? We're doing it, we're doing a bit. And then like the translator comes in and she's all giggly and I'm like, is, is the actress breaking character or is she supposed to be laughing? What's going on? We'll never know. We don't even know her name.

[32:02] Ethan: Yeah, right. So that sequence is directly from the book, like directly. And I think it probably works pretty well in a book where you have to read it and it's like you're like, oh, it becomes obvious that they're speaking the same language, but Jack Pumpkinhead thinks that he needs a translator for XYZ reasons. But I do want to talk about the man who played the Scarecrow for a minute. Um, his name was Michael Thomas. Um, and we're just going to get a quick look at him right here for all of our Patreon just so that we can get a look at how he appears. So this is him, Michael Thomas. He was a sometime actor, basically retired after this but became a very prolific makeup artist, like so prolific that he would start working on celebrities including one Michael Jackson. One of the pieces of makeup he actually worked on was the Scarecrow piece that he wore for The Wiz. So this man who played the Scarecrow would later help Michael Jackson play the Scarecrow.

[33:05] Andrew DeWolf: That's crazy.

[33:05] Ethan: And there they are together right there. That's kind of cool. I didn't know what to do with that information. It's like one of those little.

[33:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I mean he helped a much better Scarecrow get on screen. I gotta say, I don't hate his Scarecrow. He's doing a Ray Bolger impression and it's not terrible.

[33:24] Ethan: Yeah, like he has like weak legs. He's like a little like floppy and he kind of has a similar face structure to Ray Bolger. I mean, we haven't brought up the 1930s film very much with this. Barry Man told Variety, there is no source on this, so I'm just going to have to take Wizard of Oz Wikipedia's word on this, but he apparently told Variety on January 1st, 1969 that he had intended to have Judy Garland narrate the film, but she passed before she could do the recording.

[33:56] Andrew DeWolf: Is he just making that up?

[33:56] Ethan: Yeah, there's no way. There might be that he's not making it up in that he did want that, but he might be making it up in that he never pursued it in any meaningful way. That very much feels like that, like Hollywood speak, you know, we're gonna shoot for the moon, try to get some funding, and then we're gonna put together whatever we can.

[34:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I've been absolutely ridiculous. Imagine if that was Judy Garland's last role.

[34:27] Ethan: Oh God, hey, this movie is no the s when you, when you brought up how it's kind of like an SCP film and yeah, that's a really great way to put it. Um, all right, we need to get to the end of this story somehow. Okay, the army takes over, uh, the Oz. They try to get help to get it back for, for the Scarecrow from I think Tin Man and then fucking there's like a moose that they bring to life, the gum from Return to Oz.

[34:56] Andrew DeWolf: Yep, the gum. And it has like, it has aluminum foil antlers, like it's two pieces of aluminum and awful. It looks awful. Um, and then what, Glinda shows up at some point and is like the only way to really save the day is you have to get the real rightful ruler of Oz, which is Osma the princess.

[35:18] Ethan: Now we're gonna pause here. Pause. I think this is a good point to like, you know, analyze what happens next. Let's consider what might happen next. Um, so they call back Mombi, who we have not seen since the opening scenes, seemed like she was gonna be a lot more important than she was. She's not.

[35:48] Andrew DeWolf: And she's like, tell us what happened. And she is basically like, oh yeah, I, I kidnapped the princess and turned her into a boy and wiped her memory and it's Tip.

[36:01] Ethan: Yeah, it happens very fast. Also, everyone in the audience is just instantly like, wait.

[36:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, no, also Glinda has a, uh, polygraph test for a wand. Yes, that is like from this fucking book.

[36:15] Ethan: Is it really? Yes, that is, she had like a little thing that like turned black if someone was lying.

[36:21] Andrew DeWolf: That's insane.

[36:22] Ethan: It's accurate. Look, accurate. They read the book.

[36:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yes. Um, and then Tip is like, hey yo, yo, yo, fuck that. Yeah, he's like, this is just like fun. I don't want to do that. I don't know. I'm, I'm not a girl. I don't want to be more accurately, that's too badly. It's, uh, it's more like I don't really want to be a girl. I want to be a boy. And everyone's just like, you're gonna be better as a girl. It'll be fine.

[36:48] Ethan: Yeah, yeah, your boyness is gonna go to all the boys in the whole world. Yeah, what was that? Um, masculine energy is spread amongst all.

[36:55] Andrew DeWolf: It was so well, okay, so well, okay, there's something in this movie that really pissed me off. I mean, what, just one thing? Just one thing?

[37:14] Ethan: Just saying something, just a singular thing.

[37:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, this whole movie is really out there. There's a part right where Glinda is, oh fuck guys, we missed H.M. Wogglebug. How did we forget the Wogglebug?

[37:27] Ethan: How do we forget the Wogglebug?

[37:28] Andrew DeWolf: So there's this pedophile, right? And he has, and he has these giant googly eyes.

[37:37] Ethan: Oh my fucking God.

[37:38] Andrew DeWolf: Taped to his eyes and he has the worst, he has the worst thing. He has a construction paper goatee.

[37:45] Ethan: Yep.

[37:46] Andrew DeWolf: And he's, he's a bug, but he's so big because he's highly magnified H.M. and he's thoroughly educated, which is the most perverted way to put it. So he's H.M. Wogglebug, thoroughly educated T.E. and he shows up not kidding out of fucking nowhere and now he's in the cast.

[38:04] Ethan: Oh yeah, well he's an important character. He shows up after we find the mouse that scares off the army because they're girls and yeah, that's from the book strangely.

[38:18] Andrew DeWolf: And next week we are covering it looks like a hundred years old though. Like it's, I mean, I get that it's like an authentic adaptation, but it's very much like this is it.

[38:33] Ethan: It was, it was okay just in terms of misogyny was really bad.

[38:33] Andrew DeWolf: You don't like the goofball misogyny? The girls scared of mouse, the fucking, the one to stand up on a chair and go eek eek.

[38:46] Ethan: One of the big plot points, like the entire motivation for the army is there's jewels everywhere and they want jewels, women, they're shopping. Have you? It's true. They'll just take over your country to fucking shop, dude. There's one scene where, oh yeah, but then they're all gonna starve to death because nobody knows how to cook and that's a bad thing, boys and girls.

[39:11] Andrew DeWolf: It's so out of left field, but there's one scene where she's like playing with these like strings of jewels and she's like tugging on it really hard and I couldn't tell if that was like a part of the scene or if the prop was stuck, but it was so weird.

[39:22] Ethan: I believe you. I don't remember it. Yes, I remember it. I remember it and it's, I wish, I don't wish anything. I don't want to change a thing about this.

[39:38] Andrew DeWolf: Oh no, I never got to the part that really pissed me off, my bad. Let's go.

[39:38] Ethan: So the part that really pissed me off is like they, they kind of mirror what happens in the original Wizard of Oz where the wizard goes around and is like, oh Scarecrow, you're actually not, you know, and oh Tin Man, you're actually very kind and blah blah blah, where Glinda goes to each of Tip's associates and it's like, you did this, you did this, you did this. She gets the Pumpkinhead and she's like, Pumpkinhead, you never left Tip's side and I was like, that's the...

[40:10] Ethan: Literally the only fucking thing he did in this whole movie. He laughed. He fucked off. That was the only thing.

[40:17] Jess: It's actually true. That is the only thing this character did. Oh, he stuck beside him. The only thing of note is...

[40:24] Andrew: Literally the only autonomy this character had was he fucked off. And you're getting that wrong. Like, you've gotta be kidding me.

[40:31] Ethan: Yeah. God. We gotta talk more about... We gotta unpack the Ozma tip thing for a second more.

[40:39] Jess: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, the fact that his boyness would travel all out of Oz, that is not exactly of this film original, but basically of this film original.

[40:50] Ethan: So, in the book, Tip has just got all his memories, and now he's Ozma. And he's like, Oh, yeah, I was just kind of always supposed to be this. This feels right. There was none of that, like, Wait a minute!

[41:02] Jess: So, a lot of trans people have kind of taken Ozma as part of their, as a trans woman, a trans coming out story. And I feel like if they adapted it today, it would only make sense to make Ozma a trans person. And I think that would be wonderful.

[41:19] Ethan: Wait, so how does this work? Like, Tip learns that he's Ozma, gets his memories back, and then he's like, Yeah, I'm Ozma now. It's not even like, gets his memories back. It's more like, Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that's why I've always felt wrong. And yeah, this feels for me. Oh, yeah. So, this feels right.

[41:37] Jess: Yeah, okay. So, that, like, a thousand percent trans allegoric kind of thing. Whereas in the movie, they just kill Tip, basically, and replace him.

[41:45] Andrew: They just replace the actor, yeah. They're like, We found a better actor, but it's a girl. So, we're gonna have to write that into the script somehow.

[41:55] Ethan: So, this actually comes, according to Oz Wiki, from a short story written by horror author Jack Snow in 1958, called A Murder in Oz, about a detective trying to investigate the apparent murder of Princess Ozma, where in becoming Ozma, Tip and Ozma become different entities. So, it's kind of loosely adapting that aspect of that short story.

[42:20] Jess: I don't think Barry Mann has that much intelligence to know how to read that. So, I'm gonna say that he just kind of said, This is better, and I'm making an adaptational change. It did make for a deeply uncomfortable scene.

[42:34] Ethan: And then a new actor plays Ozma, played by a young girl. She has, like, two lines, which is like, I have a feeling I know you all. You may go now. I must conference with my royal teacher.

[42:45] Jess: I feel like it's, like, immediately sexist to her, like, the second she appears. But that might have just been a vibe thing. And then the movie just kind of stops. The movie ends.

[42:54] Andrew: It doesn't really end. It does just stop.

[42:59] Ethan: Okay, but here's the thing, right? In terms of, like, the momentum of the film, every once in a while, it'll cut to a static image of a semi-representational map of Oz. And somebody will tell you what's happening. And you're like, Oh, okay. And I'm like, Well, this is where the first episode ends. And this is where episode two starts. That first happens, like, 25 minutes in.

[43:24] Jess: Yeah. And it's like, Oh, there's a narrator. Okay.

[43:27] Ethan: Yeah. It's kind of like, um, what is it? Oh, what's the cowboy movie? Everybody shoots each other. It's the Quentin Tarantino film.

[43:34] Andrew: Brokeback Mountain.

[43:36] Ethan: Jango Unchained.

[43:37] Andrew: The Hateful Eight.

[43:38] Ethan: Hateful Eight. Yeah. It's kind of like in Hateful Eight. We're, like, halfway through. Quentin Tarantino's like, Yeah, by the way, somebody poisoned the coffee. You know?

[43:44] Jess: Yeah.

[43:44] Ethan: The director steps in and is like, I didn't tell you this.

[43:47] Jess: Yeah.

[43:49] Ethan: All right. We got to go into a mid-show. And then we're going to talk about some other stuff.

[43:57] Andrew: What is Santa doing on a Florida beach? His sleigh is stuck in the sand. Thousands of miles away from the North Pole, that's what. Where are his reindeer? It looks to me like all the help that the children and their animals are giving Santa isn't working. Well, what will happen? Will Santa get back to the North Pole in time to pick up Christmas presents for children all over the world? Wait a moment. There is someone who just may be able to help. Have you ever heard of an ice cream bunny?

[44:41] Ethan: You haven't? Well, if you want to see whether Santa gets back to the North Pole in time to deliver your Christmas presents, then see Santa Claus and the Ice Cream Bunny.

[44:48] Jess: Santa Claus and the Ice Cream Bunny. Her sister was murdered. The family slippers were stolen. Now, one woman must seek revenge. These things must be done delicately. And the only thing that can stop her is a bucket of water. Watch the sweetest, most cherished children's story of all time. The Wizard of Oz. Tomorrow at 8 on TBS.

[45:33] Jess: Hey, guys! Sorry to interrupt you in the middle of the show, but we've got a show for you. Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon. At Patreon, you get tons of fun perks, such as our episodes a week or a day early. We also get live video recordings where you can see our beautiful faces. You can see Ethan's real-life face, face reveal on the Musical Switches podcast right now.

[45:56] Ethan: It's true. Right now, you have to just...

[45:57] Jess: Slander!

[45:58] Ethan: Slander! You can see it. You just have to subscribe at the $150 level.

[46:05] Jess: Just $150,000. $150,000, you'll get to see his face. It will not be worth it.

[46:11] Ethan: I disagree. I feel like it's going to be really, like, interesting. But then again, I've also cyberstalked, like, people.

[46:19] Jess: Yeah, I don't know. This guy's a fucking creep, dude. It's good that you have your anonymity. Keep it.

[46:27] Andrew: We also have a full-on other podcast. We just talked about Camp Miasma there. We talk about High School Musical, the musical, the series. I don't give a shit about Olivia Rodrigo.

[46:35] Jess: Our current patrons are Layton A., Ewan Cassidy, Monica Theroux, Brent Black, Jon Van Alls, Ross Walker, Musical Hell, Jen AC, Nothing is Certain Except Beth in Texas, Thespian, Roof Geese, EJ Francis, Chris Marcotte, Kiji Marie Anastasio, RJ Noriega, Joe, Toriana Frazier, Sammy, The Adequate Amount, Jacobson, Villainous, Miss, The Omega Geek, Maddie Wargell, Elisa Erdman, Rora Marasso, Mara, Puffy Boy, Anna B., Gold Play to Kikimora, Aria Ardy, Carl Valdaso, JRL Studios, Fliberty Jigot, Caleb Bailey, Davin Willis, Sofia Hurtado, Pants Pants, Casey Denning, Danielle Fane, Liz Montemurro, Jay Mitch, and Rebecca. They all give us extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Musicals with Cheese. If you'd like to join them in supporting us and get tons of fun perks, we might even turn you from a tip to an asthma.

[47:29] Jess: All right, let's get back to the show.

[47:31] Ethan: All across the country, they're lining up on the yellow brick road. The whiz is fabulous, marvelous. The whiz is wonderful, great, the best move I've seen. The whiz is thrilling, exciting, it's beautiful. The whiz, it's joy, it's laughter, it's music, it's here, the whiz rated G. Now showing exclusively at the Midland Theater in Dolby Stereo.

[48:07] Andrew: New on Disney DVD. I don't have a brain. Finding one of the funniest movies on DVD this summer is a no-brainer. Why didn't I think of that? Oh, great, no brain. It's longer. You've been Osborne. Funnier. Very funny, okay? Very, uh, funny, okay? Oh, there you are. And stranger than you thought. This was me. The Muppets Wizard of Oz, now on Disney DVD, rated TVPG.

[48:36] Ethan: What, what, you can smell it? From the magic of Walt Disney Studios comes the motion picture event of the year. There's no place like home. A fabulous journey to an enchanted land that generations have come to know and love. You don't understand, this was the yellow brick road. The Disney Channel proudly presents the exclusive world television premiere of an outstanding feature film. Oz. A fantasy adventure that travels beyond your wildest dreams. Fly, fly! Your Majesty, she has returned to Oz. Experience the wonder, the splendor, the mystery as Dorothy Gale returns to the Emerald City. What's happened to everybody? This time with a new group of friends who band together to save the land of Oz from the evil Gnome King. Why don't we just fly back to Kansas? The time has come to return to Oz.

[49:42] Jess: It's time for everyone's favorite section of the show, where Andrew and Ethan have to go head to head to guess whether these real life Letterboxd reviews are one star or five star based on nothing but the review alone. It's time for previews.

[49:53] Andrew: It's time for previews, it's time for previews.

[50:03] Ethan: Did you find reviews?

[50:05] Jess: Of course I did. People actually talking about this movie?

[50:09] Ethan: Yes, I will say it did get a like resurgence. I don't know if either of you are aware of what Riff Trax is.

[50:15] Andrew: Yes.

[50:16] Ethan: Wait, I didn't know that Riff Trax did this movie.

[50:18] Andrew: I know they did Santa and the Ice Cream Bunny.

[50:20] Ethan: They did both, and we have not even talked about Santa and the Ice Cream Bunny. I see. I see. You know, that's that's on us. We're not even mentioning that. We will, though. We will.

[50:31] Jess: Are you ready, my friends?

[50:35] Andrew: Let's do it.

[50:36] Ethan: All right. First one. Andrew, you're first.

[50:39] Andrew: Okay.

[50:41] Ethan: An unintentional gender bending adventure through Oz.

[50:45] Andrew: Unintentional gender bending. I mean, it's kind of intended. I'm going to go with I'm going to go with five because that sounds like it's not. It's being nice ish.

[50:57] Ethan: Wrong. It's a one, you idiot.

[51:02] Andrew: God fucking damn, dude. These people are irrational. I don't know. Giving this a one star. How could they? I mean, that that part makes sense. But I mean, why are you being so nice to it or sounding so nice to it in your in your little description there? A little tonal dissonance there.

[51:19] Ethan: Yeah. All right, Ethan, it's your turn.

[51:21] Ethan: Oh, God. Eat your heart out, MGM. This gay Fantasia trans power epic is what L Frank Baum always imagined.

[51:30] Andrew: Oh, that's a five.

[51:31] Ethan: That is a one.

[51:33] Andrew: Damn it. I will say that one did that one was I thought was just kind of funny. That was so enthusiastic. It was like, hey, look at this. This is great.

[51:41] Ethan: Andrew.

[51:46] Andrew: General Ginger's got some legs.

[51:50] Ethan: God. Okay, that's a five.

[51:53] Andrew: That's a one.

[51:54] Ethan: They're too horny to pay attention.

[51:56] Andrew: They're too horny. What the fuck? Watching this movie? What? I mean, they're used to Barryman's other work where.

[52:06] Ethan: Okay, okay, I'm going to go into that now. I know we're in the middle of the game, but I watched one of Barryman's nudie pics like all the way through. God, I'm trying to remember the name of it now. But it was like the beast of something or other.

[52:23] Andrew: It is that killed women.

[52:25] Ethan: Yep. The beast that killed women that I'm looking. I'm looking at his filmography. That's why it is for free on YouTube. And if you look at that, you're thinking, oh, it's going to be a lot. The beast is a man in a gorilla costume. Let's just cheese. Let's just say that. And they are at a nudist commune where we are not allowed to see crotch. So everything is either butts or boobs and a stationary camera a million miles away. And periodically we cut to the dorms. And these two women sit upright, covering themselves in just a way where you can't see anything but their breasts. Having like, did you hear there's a beast? A beast? Oh, no, I can't believe there's a beast. And then periodically people walk naked in the background.

[53:14] Jess: So I wanted to know if you knew this or knew what what was behind all of this. So, OK, looking at Barry Mann's filmography, the first one is Crossed Swords, which is an Errol Flynn film, which he was one of the producers, right?

[53:34] Andrew DeWolf: Like a decade of softcore porn, right? And then out of nowhere, he does this.

[53:42] Ethan: Did he, like, did he have a come to Jesus moment? Like, what happened?

[53:46] Andrew DeWolf: I think he just saw how talented his son was and said, I need to make children's films.

[53:52] Ethan: Oh my god.

[53:54] Andrew DeWolf: I think it probably is a parenting thing.

[53:57] Ethan: Holy shit. I think you're right. That makes sense.

[54:00] Andrew DeWolf: He's just like, look at how talented Chandos Castlemann is.

[54:05] Ethan: I don't want to be a statue. I want to be a little boy.

[54:08] Andrew DeWolf: Brilliant, son!

[54:10] Ethan: You're going places.

[54:12] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my gosh, I got my own little, little, little kid from E.T. here.

[54:18] Ethan: All right, I forgot who started.

[54:20] Andrew DeWolf: Do you think he was trying to, like, Shirley Temple his kid?

[54:23] Ethan: I think so, but then I think he also enjoyed doing this because he also made Thumbelina and Jack and the Beanstalk. And maybe he's just like, maybe he's like, oh, there's no money in the fucking pornos anymore. Now I got to pander to the kiddies because they go to the theater.

[54:40] Andrew DeWolf: I wonder if there's, like, a legislation change or something.

[54:43] Ethan: Probably, like, when did Deep Throat come out?

[54:47] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know.

[54:48] Ethan: Because I know that kind of changed a lot of, like, how people saw film.

[54:55] Andrew DeWolf: 72, so three years after this.

[54:57] Ethan: I think that's kind of, I'm going to say, probably something in that vein, where it became mainstream so it was harder to make money in a niche aspect.

[55:06] Andrew DeWolf: Like, when he got that and Pink Flamingo at the same time, like, shit's wild.

[55:11] Ethan: All right, whose turn is it? We got a couple more.

[55:15] Andrew DeWolf: I think it's mine.

[55:16] Ethan: No, it was mine.

[55:17] Andrew DeWolf: All right, Ethan.

[55:19] Ethan: Faithful to a fault, to the best Oz book, other than the title and a few other quibbles, Casting Your Son keeps costs down.

[55:29] Andrew DeWolf: Five.

[55:29] Ethan: That is correct!

[55:31] Andrew DeWolf: Yes!

[55:32] Ethan: I'm on the board, baby!

[55:35] Andrew DeWolf: First one?

[55:37] Ethan: Okay.

[55:37] Andrew DeWolf: All right, Andrew.

[55:38] Ethan: I'm going to buckle in here.

[55:39] Andrew DeWolf: You can tie it.

[55:39] Ethan: Okay.

[55:41] Andrew DeWolf: This is an arthouse film.

[55:43] Ethan: That's just factually untrue, but at the same time...

[55:47] Andrew DeWolf: Factually incorrect.

[55:48] Ethan: I think I want to say that they're giving this a five.

[55:51] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct, you're on the board!

[55:53] Ethan: All right, Ethan.

[55:54] Andrew DeWolf: You can either keep this out of tie or win.

[55:57] Ethan: Okay, okay.

[55:59] Andrew DeWolf: Could not just gotten a real cow.

[56:05] Ethan: That's gotta be a one.

[56:08] Andrew DeWolf: Is that a one?

[56:09] Ethan: Yeah.

[56:09] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct, Ethan has won!

[56:11] Ethan: You can't get a real cow, it's a purple cow!

[56:16] Andrew DeWolf: Hey, you just get some spray paint, it's a cow!

[56:18] Ethan: You have to do some excellent special effects work like they did in the film.

[56:22] Andrew DeWolf: It's the 60s, we can figure it out.

[56:24] Ethan: They painted horses with gelatin to make them green!

[56:29] Andrew DeWolf: There you go.

[56:30] Ethan: You couldn't have done anything like that?

[56:32] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know.

[56:37] Ethan: I gotta say, there's a lot to talk about with this movie.

[56:40] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I forgot we actually never talked about my favorite character in the movie.

[56:45] Ethan: Who?

[56:46] Andrew DeWolf: And that was the grampy, grandpa version of Shaggy at the front gate of the Emerald City who lost the bullet out of his rifle.

[56:57] Ethan: He's like some old stoner and he's like, hang on.

[56:59] Andrew DeWolf: And then he goes back, comes out with a gun and he's like, now what?

[57:03] Ethan: It's the dumbest scene ever and I love it.

[57:05] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, it's still in competition with the second dumbest scene ever, which is the translation.

[57:11] Ethan: Yes.

[57:12] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like Scarecrow has two bits like that because he does one with the Tin Man too.

[57:18] Ethan: I gotta say, this was a chaotic watch for everyone.

[57:25] Andrew DeWolf: Was there anything that you genuinely liked about it?

[57:30] Ethan: I liked Glinda.

[57:33] Andrew DeWolf: I say that without a shred of irony.

[57:35] Ethan: I thought that she was a great vocalist.

[57:37] Andrew DeWolf: It's genuinely a shame that she didn't go on to do more musical stuff and do more vocal stuff, at least that I know of.

[57:45] Ethan: But yeah, I know when she was on screen and when she was singing, like 100% sincerely, I thought she was great.

[57:50] Andrew DeWolf: When she was talking about turning our lead character into Hedwig in The Angry Tip, did you also like her?

[57:55] Ethan: Less so.

[57:57] Andrew DeWolf: I'm talking more about her singing, but yeah.

[58:02] Ethan: Andrew, anything positive you have to say?

[58:05] Andrew DeWolf: Um, it has an interesting feel to it that I kind of...

[58:11] Ethan: It's like, I don't know, there's a certain low budget effort that you could appreciate, you know?

[58:19] Andrew DeWolf: And I think that's what you get from it, Jess.

[58:22] Ethan: Yes.

[58:22] Andrew DeWolf: If I were to guess.

[58:23] Ethan: I just don't know if I have enough of it from this that I'm like, no, no, this one is like fun. It's like good. I don't think I would want to watch this again. I think I still didn't like it overall, but I think I understand the sort of low budget, like high spirits, you know, big ideas, no way to execute it sort of thing going on, you know?

[58:46] Ethan: You know, that does say something. I mean, it is an ambitious project. Like, do The Wizard of Oz on a low budget. Like, I mean, it'd be like trying to do Lord of the Rings on low budget, you know? It wouldn't really work.

[58:59] Andrew DeWolf: And I gotta say, even more ambitious to try to make a sequel to one of the greatest films ever made.

[59:06] Ethan: Yeah.

[59:07] Andrew DeWolf: And make it look like ass and then put it out for everyone to see and be like, yeah, this is the sequel. This is the follow up. It's like if I tried to do a sequel to Citizen Kane, like even me trying earnestly my best and I'm like, this is about Charlie Jr.

[59:25] Ethan: You cast yourself as the lead actor.

[59:28] Andrew DeWolf: Hi, I have the cane from Citizen Kane. It's me. Here is my rosebud. I'm going to go sledding.

[59:42] Ethan: No, it's such a weird situation because it's like, I don't know, like I have family out in L.A. and everyone in L.A. is an inconvenienced actor, you know, like, you know, I'm just waiting for my big break kind of thing. And, you know, if you're thinking about that kind of like Hollywood producer who's done a bunch of nude films and he's always talking B.S. And he's like, oh, yeah, no, we're doing The Wizard of Oz. It's a sequel. And we're going to do this and that. And there's a cow and big cow is the marketing point. And we're going to have the original song. And there's this pedophile. He's called the Wogglebug. The Wogglebug. We're in the middle of securing the original Dorothy. She's going to narrate it, you know, to keep the continuity like I can see that being like an elevator pitch, you know, and then like, you know, I mean, it's speculation. But if he was trying to either like Shirley Temple, his kid, or if having a kid and having a family, you know, changed his outlook on life. And that's why he made it. But, yeah, it's it's bizarre.

[1:00:48] Ethan: It's bizarre.

[1:00:48] Andrew DeWolf: And the thing is, Barry, man, I also love Santa and the Ice Cream Bunny and the Thumbelina and Jack and the Beanstalk films he's directed. They are in the same like genre of awful as this.

[1:01:00] Ethan: The thing that I found fascinating looking up the people behind this film is that when it came to Thumbelina and Jack and the Beanstalk and Santa and Ice Cream Bunny, he used the exact same musical team. And that was something I was really intrigued by because like the vocal performances in this film or I would have wanted to get a couple more takes.

[1:01:21] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[1:01:21] Ethan: But the actual instrumentals, they got real people to play. And you could tell their sight reading. But these are not high schoolers, you know, and I'm like, I'm really curious as to how they managed to pull that off with budget or what. And or, you know, again, man managed to really upsell what he was actually doing. Or maybe people just liked him because they were like, he was nice to be on that nudie movie.

[1:01:50] Andrew DeWolf: I did.

[1:01:50] Ethan: Maybe I have no idea. Do we have any idea what this person's personal life was like?

[1:01:57] Andrew DeWolf: None.

[1:01:57] Ethan: I like there's not even a photo of this man, like maybe barely like, oh, God, it's the his we like you Google him. The first shot of him is him holding a sniper rifle, which just leads me to wonder.

[1:02:10] Andrew DeWolf: Wait, what? What are you up to?

[1:02:12] Ethan: Well, OK, OK, so like I there's sorry when you look at when you look.

[1:02:20] Andrew DeWolf: OK, OK.

[1:02:21] Ethan: So if you look at his filmography right in fifty four, his first movie is Cross Swords that he produced. That's an Errol Flynn film, which means that he had some kind of money, some kind of pull.

[1:02:35] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[1:02:35] Ethan: Five years later, in fifty nine, he made a movie called Cuban Rebel Girls, which is supposed to be a kind of documentary, and it's an onscreen performance by Errol Flynn. Then he has Rocket Attack USA two years later, which is just like propaganda film. It says 1958 propaganda, espionage, science fiction film.

[1:02:57] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[1:02:57] Ethan: And then it's basically porn from sixty one to sixty eight. So for like seven years and he makes like a dozen movies.

[1:03:07] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[1:03:07] Ethan: Then he does Wonderful Wizard of Oz, Santa's Christmas Elf, Jack in the Meadstock Thumbelina, Santa and Ice Cream Money in the course of one year. So that's like five films in the course of one year.

[1:03:20] Andrew DeWolf: And then 24 years later, Nudes, Nudists and Nudism Volume two.

[1:03:26] Ethan: I got to give some information on Barry, man. This man was a war hero.

[1:03:35] Andrew DeWolf: Was he like, did he actually serve?

[1:03:36] Ethan: Yes, I found his obituary.

[1:03:40] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my God.

[1:03:41] Ethan: World War Two. He was. Oh, my gosh. He was inspired by the team in The Great Escape, like The Great Escape is a film about his team.

[1:03:54] Andrew DeWolf: Wait, like he like The Great Escape is a film about him.

[1:03:57] Ethan: No, he was one of the people in the group that was in part of the escape.

[1:04:03] Andrew DeWolf: Holy shit.

[1:04:05] Ethan: Um, yeah, he like, oh my God, he was doing a lot in World War One. He he was a pilot. Like, I'm going to show you a photo of this man and you're going to be like, oh, yeah, look at that. That is a man that served in the war.

[1:04:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah.

[1:04:21] Ethan: You know, both looking like so he he became a personal pilot for oh, he was the manager for Errol Flynn after the war and became his personal pilot, which is why he and Errol Flynn.

[1:04:35] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, OK, that makes more sense that. OK, OK. Connecting the pieces. That makes sense.

[1:04:44] Ethan: He was also the first film producer to adapt and apply computer technology, as well as spreadsheet applications and multi plan to break down scheduling and budgeting financial analysis for feature length motion pictures of the week for Columbia Pictures. He invented the entire film budgeting system that we have today.

[1:05:57] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, he killed a lot of people in the war.

[1:06:01] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, wait, what?

[1:06:01] Ethan: Sorry, I'm just looking at his lord body count like before he was a prisoner of war. And they just have a list of like he scored two confirmed victories of two FW 190s down in St. Omer area.

[1:06:03] Ethan: This guy is like, what is he, Forrest Gump? Is he the Forrest Gump of the film industry?

[1:06:10] Andrew DeWolf: And then he made this fucking shit.

[1:06:12] Ethan: Hold on, hold on, hold on, though. So like, there's no there's no way to find out what the budget is for The Wonderful Land of Oz.

[1:06:17] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, so he's a flying ace.

[1:06:18] Ethan: He was just like a pilot. He was like a dog fighting ace.

[1:06:19] Andrew DeWolf: No, $50,000 is what is speculated spec.

[1:06:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:06:22] Ethan: Lord, man. What a what a life.

[1:06:24] Ethan: So where did you get the speculation?

[1:06:24] Andrew DeWolf: That's.

[1:06:26] Andrew DeWolf: That was found on the Wizard of Oz Wiki.

[1:06:24] Ethan: Yeah. It's 1961. And he's like, you know what? I've killed people. I've gone to war. I know Errol Flynn. He comes to my birthday parties for the next eight years. I'm just going to shoot women's boobs. Butts and boobs. That's that's a boobs baby.

[1:06:31] Ethan: OK, because like if that whole I mean, that would that would make even more sense, though, because if he's the guy who like is like really kick ass with budgeting and budgets and scheduling, that would make sense how we managed to put out like five films over the course of a year using like small costumes, you know, paying extras and cash like you would have to be really, really fucking organized to be able to basically pump out a movie every what, two and a half months?

[1:06:43] Andrew DeWolf: My son, you're about to get out there. Be on camera.

[1:06:46] Ethan: That's insane.

[1:06:48] Ethan: Um, he also gave birth to another person who is not that Doris Keating, who turned out to be a Columbia CBS producer.

[1:06:57] Andrew DeWolf: So maybe she should have started that movie.

[1:07:00] Jess McAnally: Huh.

[1:07:01] Andrew DeWolf: So he was just, he was just really connected.

[1:07:04] Jess McAnally: He's an interesting man.

[1:07:06] Andrew DeWolf: Good for him.

[1:07:07] Jess McAnally: Yeah.

[1:07:08] Andrew DeWolf: I, uh, what, what did he know? You know, what, what did he know? I mean, that's the thing is like, he did it, you know, you know, what, however you want to call it, whatever it is, he fucking pulled it off. And he did it. He made it a whole family affair. His wife was like the script girl as credited IMDB for all his nudie pics. The man really made it in a way that none of us ever will. He is the true story of Hollywood. He was, he was, he was succeeding at a game we didn't know we were playing.

[1:07:42] Jess McAnally: Jess, when are we going to make some fucking schlock?

[1:07:45] Andrew DeWolf: I, I, I care. I guess. Is that not what musicals of Jesus? Is that it? Are we doing it right now? I, I, the sad thing is this is probably all we'll ever be remembered for.

[1:07:57] Jess McAnally: Oh, absolutely. It's not the sixties anymore. Times are tough.

[1:08:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I'm not sure we'll be remembered at all. Actually, actually, no. Ethan is going to be remembered. He has an impact on culture bigger than we ever will. Our impact is going to be the throwaway references we've had in his videos that people are going to be like, who the fuck is that? I think it's more of a philosophical argument when they digitize all of our consciousness based off of just this podcast.

[1:08:26] Jess McAnally: Oh, I'm going to be such a fucking asshole. We're going to be, we're going to be the three AI troubleshooters whenever they have a new machine. And we're going to have like our consciousnesses are going to have to figure out how the hell this works. Now they're going to put us on making a sequel to Wizard of Oz.

[1:08:43] Andrew DeWolf: There you go. You know, I'd be game. Well, okay. So here's the thing, right? And I didn't know this and I, cause I'm, I haven't read the original, um, Frank Baum books. I'm not super, I, I, I know the movie, I know Wicked. Right. Um, so when it came to the whole transgender thing at the end of this movie, it genuinely shocked me. Like I didn't, I, I wasn't expecting it, especially for a movie of this time. Right. And like, when you look at the original Wizard of Oz, the film, it had, and has had such a massive impact on the LGBTQ community for a hundred years now, almost, you know? And so to think that the sequel, the next film after that would be one that would kind of like pioneer trans visibility or trans activism, trans rights. You know, I just, I think that's, that's cool, you know, because it's kind of poetic.

[1:09:41] Jess McAnally: Yeah. I think that is the biggest positive I could give for this. I just think it's crazy that that came out and probably nobody thought anything of it, but if it came out today, we're so far behind on that now.

[1:09:55] Andrew DeWolf: Right. People would freak out. They'd be like, how could you put that in a movie? A trans Osmo, what?

[1:10:04] Jess McAnally: Yeah. It would be, it would be considered satanic or something.

[1:10:07] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. We're literally in like the satanic panic part right now.

[1:10:11] Jess McAnally: Yeah, absolutely. That's interesting. We bring this up and this really has to be the last thing, last one of my dumb tangents before we wrap up, but the actress who played Asma in Return to Oz is doing conventions and she's like hard right MAGA and very anti-trans. So a lot of people that felt seen by the character of Asma can't even go to their living Asma representation that they have. So what I'm saying is we're sick of Wicked's and another re-adaptation of the Wizard of Oz. Give us the tip Asma story properly done.

[1:10:47] Andrew DeWolf: Dude, I agree. I agree. We need Pumpkinhead. We need the Wombus or whatever the fuck his name is.

[1:10:54] Jess McAnally: Wogglebug.

[1:10:55] Andrew DeWolf: Wobblebug.

[1:10:56] Jess McAnally: Wogglebug. H M Wogglebug T E. Okay. He didn't spend all those years in grad school to not be referenced by his full legal name. And then there's like, you got like TikTok and stuff. I'm pretty sure that's from later, but TikTok would go ham today. I mean, it's all kids talk about. It's TikTok this, TikTok that. Everyone loves TikTok.

[1:11:17] Andrew DeWolf: How has Disney not noticed that everyone's been talking about Return to Oz for a decade now?

[1:11:25] Jess McAnally: Yeah, it's where everyone goes. I'm just saying I don't need another MCU movie. Like there's plenty of material here that I think is solid, you know? But no, they're going to just do a third Wicked movie for some reason.

[1:11:38] Andrew DeWolf: Are they really?

[1:11:39] Jess McAnally: Yeah, I mean, Stephen Schwartz and Winnie Holtzman are working on another story in the Oz universe based off the Wicked films. And there's no way they touch this story.

[1:11:51] Andrew DeWolf: Cowards. They did name drop Mambi in Wicked part one.

[1:11:56] Jess McAnally: Oh, I didn't pick up on that.

[1:11:58] Andrew DeWolf: I did because I'm a fucking nerd. Speaking of fucking nerds, what is our overall thoughts on The Wonderful Land of Oz and our cheese ratings? Andrew, why don't you start us off?

[1:12:10] Andrew DeWolf: I think this is a very interesting movie. It's a very interesting piece of media that I'm glad is not lost. I also think it's kind of a fucking mess. It's a fucking disaster. The lead actor is fucking terrible. And I know it's a child, but like, let's be real here. You know, it's bad. It's bad. It's bad. But there's some interesting stuff. There's certainly a lot to fucking talk about. I mean, as we just clearly fucking demonstrated. As far as a cheese rating, I'm going to give it a Wensleydale and Ginger for the general ginger.

[1:12:55] Jess McAnally: I love it. I am sorry. I lied about the random tangents because I have this is late breaking news.

[1:13:06] Andrew DeWolf: He's got another one.

[1:13:07] Jess McAnally: Oh, what's going on?

[1:13:08] Andrew DeWolf: In 1905, there was like before the Judy Garland movie, Al Frank Baum is still alive. There was a stage musical written by Al Frank Baum called The Wogglebug.

[1:13:22] Jess McAnally: The most important character.

[1:13:23] Andrew DeWolf: Is the Wogglebug related to the jitterbug, which was the cut number from the original?

[1:13:28] Jess McAnally: It very much may be. But I we have photos and I've got a feeling based on what I know about Al Frank Baum might be a little racist. So this is what Jack Pumpkinhead looked like in that production in 1905.

[1:13:45] Jess McAnally: Yeah, that's okay. That's sickening.

[1:13:48] Andrew DeWolf: It looks like Frankenstein.

[1:13:49] Jess McAnally: A little bit. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is what our good friend The Wogglebug looked like.

[1:13:55] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, fuck.

[1:13:57] Jess McAnally: Yeah, that's what we're looking for for an audience. We're seeing a minstrel show.

[1:14:01] Andrew DeWolf: Minstrelsy.

[1:14:04] Jess McAnally: Yeah, it's minstrelsy. It had The Wogglebug and Jack Pumpkinhead as a comic duo. It was unsuccessful and ran from June 18th, 1905 to July 13th, lasting one month on stage.

[1:14:18] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, were they? Oh, no, this is a thing.

[1:14:19] Jess McAnally: This is a thing. It's like the straight man, funny man. But it was huge in minstrelsy. I don't remember what because I'm not a huge fan of watching blackface.

[1:14:30] Andrew DeWolf: No, you're not.

[1:14:31] Jess McAnally: Should be. Believe it or not, I'm not. But no, no, no, no, no. This is this is a pattern. It was like the straight man, funny man. They had a very specific set of names, but it was a pattern.

[1:14:40] Andrew DeWolf: So that must be what he was referencing here.

[1:14:42] Jess McAnally: Yes. No, this is this is explicitly blackface. He did not have a great history, but there are a future me. We'll have to remember to drop this in here. But let's take a listen to what some of the songs sounded like just just for just for shiggles.

[1:15:17] Andrew DeWolf: Hey, can it be green? Go tell me to. Frankenzie, don't you? I want to know right away. Can't wait another day. The question makes me curious because I might be curious. What did the.

[1:15:42] Jess McAnally: Okay, yeah. I think I'm I think we can be we can be quite happy this wasn't successful because I think.

[1:15:53] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's that. I think this would have ruined Wizard of Oz. Honestly, if this was like a huge thing.

[1:15:59] Jess McAnally: Oh, I agree is we're there for the Wizard of Oz before we got to one halfway decent one. I yeah, that it's it's always so difficult because you'll just be looking up something from the air and then you see something like that. And you're like, that's that's right. This was the right. Everything was racist.

[1:16:18] Andrew DeWolf: All right. This is terrible. This is fucking awful. I thought entertainment used to just be racism.

[1:16:25] Jess McAnally: That was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Telling a joke was just being racist for an hour as opposed to now, which is now only half of the time being racist for an hour.

[1:16:33] Andrew DeWolf: Right. The other half is hating women, right?

[1:16:35] Jess McAnally: Don't forget the trans people. We just got to beat them up. Every white comedian has like a type 15 about how trans people are terrible. It's really important to make truth of power. It's really important to make fun of people who are doing nothing wrong.

[1:16:51] Andrew DeWolf: It's called speaking truth to power. And it's a it's a comedian's job. I mean, the power is the ruler of all of us.

[1:16:59] Jess McAnally: That's true. That's true. I see. I feel like that's all the more reason for us to maybe spend more time in the land of Oz rather than remaking Marvel stuff. You know, you know, a land where you got a boy and a princess. They're the same person, you know, where there's a lot of rainbows and everything's okay.

[1:17:17] Andrew DeWolf: Well, you can in the land of Oz. Ethan, what is your cheese rating?

[1:17:24] Ethan: My cheese rating. And I thought about this. My cheese rating is a homemade ricotta. So the thing is, is like, even if you make it right, it's going to look and smell a little funky. And in the end of the day, it's a lot of effort for something that does not taste as good as what came out of the grocery store. But whatever value you're supposed to get from it is that endearingness from something being homemade. And like I said at the beginning, like when I first saw this film, it reminded me of community theater. It reminds you know, the low budget definitely speaks for itself. But as far as low budget goes, and especially low budget music stuff, musicals, musical theater, musical films, it's not bad, right? It could be a lot worse. You know, I can't say this is going to be a movie that I watch again, maybe. But yeah, it's just there's it's deceiving in how many layers there actually are to this movie.

[1:18:30] Jess McAnally: I agree. I yeah, I that is a perfect description. The ricotta, the ricotta is ricotta is life.

[1:18:40] Andrew DeWolf: Ricotta is Wogglebug. I'm giving it is what I'm giving this baby Swiss. No explanation.

[1:18:46] Jess McAnally: Ethan, you are a top tier Musicals with Cheese guest have always been. Please share where people might find your stuff. And don't you have a new video that's about to drop?

[1:18:57] Ethan: Yeah, I have a new video that's about to drop. Hopefully knock on wood. It's currently getting slammed by copyright. But yeah, if you just look up Sideways on YouTube, that's me. And honestly, guys, I love I love coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's always a blast, even when it's something really out of left field like this. There are a few guests that I could be like, you know, if I throw this at them, they'll probably be fine.

[1:19:24] Jess McAnally: There's like three, maybe.

[1:19:26] Ethan: Yeah, I was like, can you catch this curveball? Let's see. And man, you slam dunk this. This was perfect.

[1:19:32] Jess McAnally: Now, thank you. Thank you for exposing me to the weird stuff. That's that's that's where it's at. And we will have you back on soon. And as always, Ethan, you are a joy, a wonderful human. And I am a fan of yours first. So I'm so excited for what you've got going on. Thank you for joining us.

[1:19:50] Ethan: Thank you so much. You are the best of the best.

[1:19:55] Jess McAnally: I don't know what to say to that. I would say, hey, go listen to these guys podcast. But that's where we are right now.

[1:20:00] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, shit. They're already here.

[1:20:01] Jess McAnally: They made it.

[1:20:02] Andrew DeWolf: It's Metta.

[1:20:04] Jess McAnally: It's Metta. It's a podcast in a podcast.

[1:20:06] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, my gosh.

[1:20:09] Jess McAnally: Yeah. Thank you so much, everyone. And we will see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.