This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally. And I'm Andrew DeWolfe.

[0:19] Andrew DeWolfe: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to musical theater.

[0:22] Jesse McAnally: And today, we have an extra special guest. One of the most special guests we've ever had. I'd say like Frank, not to spoil it, but Frank is a truly good friend of mine, a talented person. He's getting out there. So join me in welcoming Twitch streamer at Frank Broadcast and podcaster at Frank Podcast, currently doing Raccoon Shitty, a retrospective of all the Resident Evil films building up to Zack Krager's most recent one. And of course, Farley Flavors himself, Frank Zekin.

[0:56] Frank Zekin: Yes, hello, everybody. Yeah, I'm going to see it tonight. We've been working on it since April. We've been doing all the live action movies and the animated ones. And yeah, it's finally coming to an end.

[1:09] Andrew DeWolfe: Yeah. Are they good? Like those live action ones? They look really bad.

[1:15] Frank Zekin: There's like one and a half that are good out of 15.

[1:23] Andrew DeWolfe: So is it like the first one and the second, like the first half of the second one, or is it like some random number happened to be good?

[1:27] Frank Zekin: I like two. I think the first one kind of stinks.

[1:34] Andrew DeWolfe: Okay, but so two is the good one?

[1:38] Frank Zekin: Two is the fun one. I don't know if I'd call it good, really. It's like the kind of movie that you would see on cable and you would just leave it on while you do your chores. That's about the highest this franchise has gotten, but maybe not anymore. Maybe tonight I'll find out that Zack Krager just raised the ceiling for what this franchise can put out.

[1:53] Jesse McAnally: I will say it's been getting good reviews. So, oh, can I Frank, you're the only one that'll get this. I was just invited to a press screening of Digger and I'm so upset that I can't go.

[2:07] Frank Zekin: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's like, that's really and I think it might be a musical. I won't know if it's going to be a musical. He also told me that too. And I feel like that makes it way more interesting because the marketing for Digger has just been weird, really weird.

[2:22] Jesse McAnally: Like they started with that trailer. That's just a montage of Tom Cruise and other movies. And every time I've seen that trailer at the beginning of a movie in the theater, there's always at least one couple that turns to each other and are like, what the fuck was that? It doesn't actually tell you anything. So I don't think Warner Brothers knows how to market it.

[2:41] Frank Zekin: That makes sense. Warner Brothers seems to be bad at a lot of things.

[2:44] Jesse McAnally: You say that, but then last year, Warner Brothers was good at a lot of things.

[2:48] Frank Zekin: Yeah, that's actually what my show did. We did a season before Raccoon Shitty called the DCPU, you know, like PU, you stink, right? Oh, it smells about the DCEU. And, you know, it's about obviously Man of Steel through everything before James Gunn hit the reset button. But it's also the story of how Warner Brothers is just a complete shit show and how, you know, it's being bought by company after company. And there's all this executive meddling and severance type stuff going on behind the scenes. So it doesn't surprise me that they don't really know what to do with Digger.

[3:23] Jesse McAnally: Speaking of not knowing what to do with a movie. Oh, boy. This has been a long requested episode. This is an episode that I know so many people have been like, well, if you're bringing Musicals with Cheese back, are you going to talk about Shock Treatment finally? I'm like, yeah, we're doing it, guys. Here we are. In case you haven't picked up, we're throwing down this week. We are talking about Richard O'Brien's sequel, question mark, to the Rocky Horror Picture Show, Shock Treatment.

[4:10] Jesse McAnally: This is the Mecca of America, the Bethlehem of the West. This is the birthplace of the virtuous, the home of happiness. Leisure wise, we're sure you will adapt.

[4:51] Jesse McAnally: So Shock Treatment is a film directed by Jim Sharman and written by Jim Sharman and Richard O'Brien with music and lyrics by Richard Hartley and Richard O'Brien. It is described as a non-canon parallel film to the Rocky Horror Picture Show following the characters of Brad and Janet Majors and the town of Denton, controlled by a television network. It premiered October 30th, 1981 in a limited release. So it never received like a proper film release. They were trying to give it the Rocky Horror Treatment at midnight movies as a release. And then what you get that way is no one knows it came out due to its increase. They forgot the Rocky Horror Treatment was to first release it and have it flop and then do the midnight thing.

Well, they kind of did that, but much longer. Due to its increased budget and limited release, Shock Treatment was an even bigger financial flop than Rocky Horror's original general release in 1975. It was a critical and commercial failure upon release, never earned the cult status of its predecessor. However, a lot of more recent reviews have enjoyed the satirical themes and the prescient satire of reality television. And it's gotten a little more attention. In 2015, there was even a stage production in the UK. There is interesting stuff happening. The plot of Shock Treatment is Brad and Janet Majors find their strained marriage put to the test on a popular Denton TV show, Marriage Maze. Poor Brad is heavily sedated and institutionalized while Janet is given a radical makeover and primed for stardom. But what are the real motivations behind the kooky DTV crew and their enigmatic head honcho Farley Flavors?

[6:34] Jesse McAnally: So before we dive into me and Andrew's opinions, Frank, what is your history with the Rocky Horror Picture Show as well as what did you have coming into Shock Treatment?

[6:39] Frank Zekin: Oh, wow. Okay. So I know three things about the Rocky Horror Picture Show. The first one is that it's one of my mom's favorite movies. I know that Tim Curry is in it, and I know what his character looks like. I don't even know the guy's name. And I know about the Time Warp song because going back to my mom, that's always what she would use for her morning alarm, and it would drive me nuts.

[7:01] Jesse McAnally: Oh, that's so cute. I don't think I've met your mom. Now I really want to. I want to bond over Rocky Horror with her.

[7:07] Frank Zekin: Yeah, she really loved that movie. I remember seeing the VHS tape as a kid, and it was kind of freaky because it was just like a pair of lips in a black void. And it's like, I don't really know if I should be popping this into the VCR. I don't know if I'm old enough to watch this.

[7:21] Andrew DeWolfe: I mean, I had a similar experience with it because my dad, I used to do theater as a kid. Shocker, shocker. And my parents thought I was an overactor. So my dad to try to show me what true acting was, showed me like the first 30 minutes of the movie. And he's like, look at them. They're like, they're like performing and all that. And then Frankenfurter came on screen and my mom's like, what the fuck are you showing our kid? Turn this off.

[7:48] Frank Zekin: Yeah. And as far as this movie goes, I didn't even know it existed until Jesse had texted me. And I was, you know, I was willing to do the homework, like, okay, I'll watch Rocky Horror. Like I looked up and said, oh, it's a sequel. And Jesse's like, do not watch it. I want to get the opinion of somebody who's never seen it. So, okay.

[8:02] Jesse McAnally: See, Andrew and I are too close to Rocky Horror. It was like one of the first things we did. Andrew was cyber bullied by Meatloaf himself. It's just, we can't be objective about that.

[8:13] Frank Zekin: Yeah. I think I do remember hearing about the cyber bullying from Meatloaf. I'm like an honorary cast member of that movie, sadly.

[8:25] Andrew DeWolfe: Now, Andrew, you are not in love with the original Rocky Horror film or the show or anything like that. What was your thoughts on Shock Treatment?

[8:30] Andrew DeWolfe: Um, okay. Yeah. So I feel like I feel about the same. Actually. So I watched this twice.

[8:40] Frank Zekin: Really?

[8:40] Andrew DeWolfe: I watched it. Yeah. I watched it twice because I wanted to really get a feel for it. I kind of feel like I feel almost the same about this as I do about Rocky Horror in that there's like some decent songs, there's some fun, like satirical stuff, and then it just doesn't work. Like there's like, I feel like Rocky Horror, it's like you, you start the movie and it's like good. And then it just gets to that second half and it's so long and it just keeps dragging on and it's like, I'm done. I've been done. I've been done since Time Warp, you know? Whereas like this one, it kind of feels the same in a way. Like, I don't know. Every song feels the same in that it's all like the same, like rock style. Like, I don't know. There's interesting ideas. There's a lot of interesting ideas that I don't think any of them like pan out the way I wanted them to.

[9:29] Frank Zekin: Fair enough. And Jesse, I didn't really get your thoughts on what you, whether or not you like Shock Treatment. And I mean this not in a derogatory way, although I don't think the movie's very good, but I mean this in the most literal sense. It is a nightmare. This whole movie is a nightmare. I kept thinking, especially towards the end, when are we going to see the sky? Like there's no sky. Everything is indoors. It's completely disorientating. It's just truly like a nightmare I would have. And I do agree with Andrew. Like there are some good ideas and it seems like when you read about what people like about the movie online, they're always like, oh, it was ahead of its time. It had some really good ideas.

And it's like, okay, I guess. I feel like they weren't executed on in the best possible way though. And I think if you watch it and you think about it a little bit, you can feel a lot of moments where they're like trying to be camp on purpose to like create a cult version, like a cult movie, like they did with, like they're trying to recreate it. Like they're trying to do like The Room 2 and it's like, you can't do The Room 2.

[10:39] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, that's what I was thinking when Jesse mentioned that they were releasing this at midnight screenings on purpose. And it's like, you can't force us so bad it's good movie. Like I guess the reason why Rocky Horror blew up is because it bombed and then it gained a reputation. You can't manufacture that, you know?

[10:58] Frank Zekin: Mm-hmm. So this originally started as a more traditional sequel to Rocky Horror. Richard O'Brien wrote it, entitled it The Revenge of the Old Queen, where Janet was impregnated with Frank-N-Furter's child. And so they resurrect Frank-N-Furter, Bride of Frankenstein styled. He is the monster in that one. But basically Tim Curry's like, I'm good. I'm good on that. I want to do it.

[11:27] Jesse McAnally: So Shock Treatment was born of two scrap productions, one completely unrelated, related to Rocky Horror and just put the Rocky stuff into it. Now, the original script that they were, so unlike Rocky Horror, this did not start as a stage musical. So you don't have like that development and audience, all that. So this was just kind of wholesale made to be a movie. And it was designed to be shot on location in America, in Texas, where you might see the sky. But honestly, on that though, I think I'm glad you don't see the sky.

[12:00] Frank Zekin: So come back to that.

[12:01] Jesse McAnally: I just feel like the movie is so hard to follow. Like I felt like the entire time it was slipping through my fingers. You know what I mean? Like I was trying to understand what was happening and I just had nothing to ground myself with. And I guess, you know, that might be the point, but it made it very difficult to follow. I didn't watch it a second time like Andrew, but I did kind of skip around the version I watched, which is just on YouTube, at least for now, after the first time I saw it, because I'm like, okay, I need to try and go through it again and understand some of this a little bit better.

[12:35] Frank Zekin: Understandable. But basically the reason why they couldn't shoot in Texas is because there was a once in a generation writer's actor strike, which meant that nothing was being shot. So they kind of had to pivot or really quickly to make it work shooting in the UK with everyone's schedules with basically. So they had to rewrite this entire script and it's sloppy. Like the scenes in Janet's quote unquote house.

[13:01] Jesse McAnally: That were like, why are we here in this kind of space with her parents? Like, you feel the kind of strain of this. It kind of works, though, because it sells this weird idea that the entire town doesn't exist. Denton is a television studio, the whole thing, including her house, including where they all live, the hospital, all of it is just a TV set. It's so bizarre, and it kind of works. It's like it's camp, in a way. I don't know. It kind of works. Nobody thinks it would have worked better as a theater, like a production in a theater, like the actual Broadway stage. If you don't mind, Frank and Andrew, I'd like you guys to try to kind of tell me what the plot of this movie is.

[13:52] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know. Andrew, do you want to take it away here?

[13:55] Frank: I could take some of it.

[13:56] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, sure. Yeah, you can pass the baton when you feel ready.

[13:59] Frank: We could pass. Let's see. Okay, so as far as sequel to Rocky Horror stuff goes, I mean, you don't have a lot here. It's basically just Janet and Brad, and that's it.

[14:12] Jesse McAnally: Well, it's interesting, because as far as characters go, yes, but they're not played by the same actors as the previous. But as far as actors from the previous, you have them, but playing different characters.

[14:22] Frank: Except one. There's one guy playing the same, and I think—

[14:25] Andrew DeWolf: It's Ralph Hapshank.

[14:26] Frank: It's a nothing character. He's at the beginning of the Rocky Horror. I don't even remember him in Rocky Horror.

[14:32] Andrew DeWolf: He's the one that gets married at the very beginning, him and Betty Monroe.

[14:35] Frank: Yeah, so he comes back, and he's playing the same character, I guess, technically. I mean, I think he didn't really have a character in the first one as much, whereas this one, they kind of give him one, but he doesn't do much here either.

[14:47] Jesse McAnally: Either way, unwind this winding path, sir.

[14:50] Frank: Okay, so I guess Brad and Janet went back to Denton, but you don't really see Denton at all, because it opens in a TV studio, and the TV studio, I guess, is Denton. It's fucking weird, but they're running a television show, and they're all so happy explaining how great Denton is, even though Denton is literally a TV studio. And then they start running this game show, Marriage Maze, and Brad and Janet are invited up because there's some weird fucking plot thing where the guy who is buying the TV studio that is Denton, or who already runs it, it's unclear. To me, it's unclear whether he's buying it or if he already owns it. He's working with the host of the show, all the shows, basically. There's just this guy, what's his name?

[15:40] Andrew DeWolf: Farley Flavors?

[15:41] Frank: Farley Flavors, yeah.

[15:42] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, no. That's the guy who's buying it. Who's the host?

[15:46] Frank: Oh, the Barry Humphreys actor. Fuck.

[15:48] Andrew DeWolf: The guy in the orange blazer?

[15:50] Frank: Yeah, I don't...

[15:51] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[15:51] Frank: Yeah, it's like Burt, or Ben, or—

[15:53] Andrew DeWolf: I think it's a B.

[15:54] Frank: Something like that?

[15:55] Andrew DeWolf: Something like that. He's an important guy. He's an important character. I have no fucking clue.

[16:00] Frank: He's played by the shark from Finding Nemo.

[16:03] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, wow. Okay.

[16:04] Frank: Yeah, he's—

[16:06] Andrew DeWolf: Burt Shnick?

[16:08] Frank: He is working with Farley Flavors, who is, I guess, the guy's name, but also it's like a fast food company that owns the studio.

[16:18] Jesse McAnally: It has an F swastika that is Frank's new podcast. Look out for Frank Broadcast.

[16:23] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. After I watched the movie, I texted Jesse. I would advise against it.

[16:27] Frank: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I texted Jesse the picture from Sonny when Danny DeVito makes his own flag with the four Fs. It's basically the same joke.

[16:38] Jesse McAnally: They took it from this. They saw it.

[16:40] Frank: I didn't know it was going to turn out like that.

[16:44] Jesse McAnally: Okay, so, yeah. Farley Flavors wants to, like, date Janet, I think. I'm pretty sure.

[16:53] Frank: Okay, because the main plot point is that Brad is basically told that he's sick and unwell, and Janet just kind of goes along with it, and Brad gets, like, sedated and shoved into a padded cell that has a jail cell inside of it, which I feel like beats the purpose of a padded cell, but, you know, whatever.

[17:15] Jesse McAnally: I mean, first question, did you guys notice right away that Brad and Farley are played by the same actor?

[17:21] Andrew DeWolf: No, I honestly didn't.

[17:22] Frank: Not right away, no.

[17:23] Andrew DeWolf: I thought the makeup was really good.

[17:26] Frank: I don't know if there's makeup as much as just the hair's done differently, and one guy's got glasses.

[17:29] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, maybe it's just like a Clark Kent situation.

[17:34] Frank: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[17:35] Andrew DeWolf: Exactly.

[17:35] Frank: It's like the only time, like, okay, maybe the glasses are doing more than I thought. Everyone goofs on Superman like that wouldn't work, but then here we are.

[17:45] Jesse McAnally: I guess it also helps, too, that Brad is gagged for 90% of the movie, so you don't really hear both of their voices that much.

[17:49] Andrew DeWolf: It's mostly just Farley Flavors.

[17:53] Frank: Brad has, like, three lines before he gets—

[17:57] Andrew DeWolf: He gets a full song duet with Janet.

[17:59] Frank: How dare you?

[18:00] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, that's true.

[18:01] Frank: About the toaster.

[18:02] Andrew DeWolf: About the toaster, which I couldn't understand why he was referencing all that. I'm like, is it because they're in an ad break?

[18:08] Frank: Maybe that's what it is.

[18:10] Jesse McAnally: I don't know. It's one of those things about shock treatment where I don't think it's good, but I am deeply compelled by it.

[18:15] Frank: It's strange. Like, I will sing that bitchin' in the kitchen thing anytime I make toast.

[18:24] Jesse McAnally: Okay, so, yeah, that's like the main beat. The main driving force is the guy wants Janet, and Brad has to be locked up, and it's put as, like, it's part of, like, a TV show where he's in the hospital, but then there's actual, like, crazy people who are in the hospital who, like, are trying to experiment on him, and it's not ever disclosed to us what their experiments are or what they're trying to do.

[18:49] Frank: No, they're character actors.

[18:50] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I thought it was just bullshit.

[18:52] Frank: That's what it is?

[18:53] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god, it's just bullshit?

[18:54] Frank: Okay, it's funny you bring that up, because I was listening to the audio commentary with Little Nell and Patricia Quinn, which is also—

[19:01] Andrew DeWolf: They're not doctors at all.

[19:02] Frank: They don't care at all.

[19:02] Andrew DeWolf: No, it's basically, like, better help.

[19:07] Frank: Yes.

[19:07] Andrew DeWolf: Or something.

[19:09] Frank: We sponsored better help for several years.

[19:11] Andrew DeWolf: We didn't...

[19:12] Frank: We didn't know!

[19:13] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, that's... Sorry.

[19:14] Frank: Look, we needed money.

[19:15] Andrew DeWolf: No worries, they don't give us money anymore.

[19:17] Frank: Fuck them.

[19:18] Andrew DeWolf: We needed money.

[19:19] Frank: But no, Patricia Quinn, who plays one of the nurses, is like, I was under the impression I was a doctor, but now they're saying I'm a character actor. That was not how the director told me to play it.

[19:31] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, no, because the whole time they're playing it like they're actual crazy scientists, and they're, like, incestual, and, like, it's super weird.

[19:39] Frank: Well, that's just because Rocky Horror had the incest thing going on.

[19:42] Andrew DeWolf: Does he call her his assisterant?

[19:46] Jesse McAnally: Andrews, here would be very important questions. With that, Frank, I want you to take over and tell us about what's going on with Janet after they put Brad in the insane asylum in the loony bin.

[20:00] Frank: Oh god, all right. The two doctors, quote-unquote, are gaslighting Janet into thinking that Brad hates her, and she has a sort of breakdown where she starts crying. What's his name? Burt Schlick, the guy with the orange blazer?

[20:18] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, he's Burt Schlick now.

[20:21] Frank: He rolls out a TV where he's got Farley Flavors on it, and he's like, Janet, I want to make you a big star. And at some point, Janet's parents, like, win a contest where they're, like, the questions are all about how much Brad is, like, mentally unstable.

[20:39] Andrew DeWolf: That does happen.

[20:41] Frank: Okay, and then Janet kind of lets it go to her head. She sort of becomes a reality star within this weird TV set city.

[20:49] Andrew DeWolf: It's hard to not be Kourtney Kardashian.

[20:51] Frank: It's hard to not be Kourtney Kardashian.

[20:53] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[20:54] Frank: And, uh...

[20:55] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like we needed a bit more with Janet of her, like, not liking Brad or something, because she is so quick to just be like, get the fuck out of here, and now I'm famous and, like...

[21:06] Frank: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they have one exchange where she seems annoyed with him, and then she just immediately believes the two character actors, you know, doctors, when they say that Brad hates her now.

[21:19] Andrew DeWolf: It's just, like, completely unbelievable.

[21:22] Frank: It's nuts. I gotta say, the actor, Jessica Harper, who you might recognize from Phantom of the Paradise.

[21:30] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yes.

[21:30] Frank: Syria. I was gonna bring that movie up. She's doing a lot of frustrated wife acting with her face that I think she's trying to perform the annoyance without any text to back it up.

[21:43] Andrew DeWolf: She's trying, but I do think, at a certain point, you do need to have some, like, dialogue. Like, something. You can't just have it like, well, she looked annoyed. I mean, look at her face. She's doing her best.

[21:54] Frank: I think Jessica Harper's the best part of this movie, easily. She's got a fantastic voice, but she's also a great actor.

[22:03] Andrew DeWolf: And Phantom of the Paradise is a movie I couldn't stop thinking about, because she's obviously the co-lead of that movie, 1974, Brian De Palma. It's basically Phantom of the Opera.

[22:11] Frank: I don't... Did you guys do that on the show?

[22:15] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, okay, you're right. But much better movie.

[22:18] Frank: Oh, absolutely. That is a fantastic movie, and it's a really similar premise, where Jessica Harper is, like, kind of groomed into being a pop star in the way that she's been groomed into being a reality TV star here.

[22:31] Andrew DeWolf: But it's more believable in that movie.

[22:34] Frank: I want—

[22:35] Andrew DeWolf: Well, that's more of a motivation.

[22:36] Frank: Here, her motivation is like, I don't even really understand, you know? That being said, we're using the term reality TV star. That did not exist. That was not a thing that existed when this film was made.

[22:49] Andrew DeWolf: So I guess, like, I'm trying to imagine, in the 80s, without the idea of, like, you know, the 24-7 real-world reality TV show, what the fuck is going on? Like, because we kind of have more context for what this is. Even they don't really... The movie's probably better now, because it makes more sense. It's like, we understand, oh, well, yeah, yeah, like, a person could get sucked into the TV, basically, and literally live there. Like, that's a thing that could happen. And I feel like, even in the movie, they don't really know how to articulate the concept, because there's that one character who's always following people around with a camera, and she's not saying that she's shooting live. She's always calling it a documentary.

[23:27] Frank: I remember that at the beginning of the movie. She's like, oh, yeah, I'm shooting Farley Flavors documentary behind the scenes. And then she's got, like, a camera on them when, you know, they're having their little meeting in his office. And, yeah, it's just like a mix of, like, live broadcasts on a soundstage with, I guess, pre-recorded footage. It's not really, I guess, all reality TV is pre-recorded when you watch it on TV. Like, they definitely chop it up and stuff. But it seems like, even in the movie, they don't really know how far ahead they're thinking. But it is a cool idea.

[24:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, they portray it as if it's, like, multiple different TV shows, because you have, like, Denton Vale, which is, like, anything happening at the hospital. But then you have the game show stuff, which happens, like, on the soundstage. I don't know what's supposed to be at her house. Is that, like, is that something? Or, like, I don't even know.

[24:23] Frank: It gets unclear sometimes. They did not build out the world. And I feel like it's much more complicated than the couple trapped at a weird house in Rocky Horror kind of had to work. Like, I also wanted to say, watching this, and I hate to do the comparison to Rocky Horror, because Frank doesn't have that. But I recently saw Rocky Horror at, you know, the State Wayne and had the...

[24:41] Andrew DeWolf: Rocky Horror is a badly made movie, technically. Meaning, there is no ambition to the camera movements. There is no...

[24:52] Frank: Basically, everything is lockdown shots to just get whatever you can get into frame into frame. There's almost no movements. There's no real set design. Here, this is really ambitious. They're doing, like, these one-take shots where there are, like, specific stagings. As far as something to look at, the scene where they're... The night-night scene, which is technically not even a plot-relevant scene, is one of those, like, most beautiful kind of constructed things.

[25:26] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm just, like...

[25:27] Frank: Is that where there's, like, multiple rooms and they're going back between all of them?

[25:30] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, like, that's a cool... It's a cool shot, a cool idea. But, like, as you said, it has, like, nothing to do with anything. And there's so much of that in this movie where it's, like, you were... You had these visual ideas and you had the money to do them instead of trying to put the thing on into... As a thing. Like, at the end, when they have, like, the whole town in the insaneness. Like, that's a compelling image.

[25:54] Frank: Yeah, it's really cool.

[25:55] Andrew DeWolf: But it's, like, what the fuck is happening?

[26:02] Andrew DeWolf: Riddled with problems during production, maybe they could have better capitalized on those ideas.

[26:08] Jess McAnally: Agreed. That's why it's so frustrating to me. We've lost the plot. We've stopped doing the plot because I'm just like, I think we should wrap that up. But also, I'm just like, there's stuff here that's frustrating me because it is of effort and quality, whereas it might not have been in the previous one.

[26:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, we can wrap up the plot. I mean, basically...

[26:29] Jess McAnally: I can wrap the plot up in a second.

[26:32] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, sure. You want to do it? It's literally like, Janet gets groomed into being a reality TV star, that gets big, and then eventually she gets sedated as well because she's kind of out of control a little bit. And then, what, Brad gets the fuck out, and a bunch of shit happens on the main soundstage. They get locked in a room, the whole town gets sent to the insane asylum, and then they escape in a car that was gifted to them by...

[26:57] Jess McAnally: You're forgetting the big reveal that Brad and Farley are lost twin brothers.

[27:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, which is completely inconsequential.

[27:10] Jess McAnally: Yeah, it doesn't matter at all. You get a really wild, almost out of context musical number between Brad and Farley, where they're just showing two different acting styles at once.

[27:20] Andrew DeWolf: It's real Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. We're going for it.

[27:26] Jess McAnally: I gotta say, I respect the actor for bringing the two energies.

[27:31] Andrew DeWolf: Was it better than Hasselhoff?

[27:33] Jess McAnally: Oh, shit. Yeah, I think it is. He was in tune.

[27:42] Andrew DeWolf: Anything left to say about the plot, or just generally what we thought about the way it was laid out before we move on?

[27:50] Jess McAnally: Oh, there is the one shot where the TV audience is sleeping in the stands. It's like they literally never go home. This is all they do. And I thought that was a pretty interesting image, too. But no, not really. There's not much else I can think of. I think we covered it.

[28:07] Andrew DeWolf: I think my thought is, and I feel like if they had made it today, they would have done this. I think that the whole thing should have been portrayed as if we're watching TV. And that's where you have The Truman Show doing this concept a million times better, just a few years later. Well, more than a few years.

[28:27] Jess McAnally: That's the other movie besides Phantom of the Paradise that I kept thinking of. The real world on MTV had already come out a few years prior, but it does the 24-7 reality TV thing so much better.

[28:40] Andrew DeWolf: I'm thinking Truman Show mixed with RoboCop.

[28:44] Jess McAnally: There's definitely some Verhoeven-y satire in here, too, on commercialism and stuff, definitely. But it's one of those things where the movie doesn't really make the most of it. But imagine the whole movie portrayed as if we're watching a television, and the ads come up and there's ridiculous stuff, and then it's like we're following. They do some of it because they have the stuff where Denton Vale comes up and we see, oh, we're watching that show right now. But I feel like that should have been the whole movie.

[29:15] Andrew DeWolf: But I'm not sure. Either they couldn't pull that off and they wanted to or they didn't. I think that might have been more high concept of an execution than they were thinking. But I think it definitely would have been more interesting to watch, especially if you still have the same story with Janet and Brad playing out through the perspective of the sets of the shows. You'd have to rewrite it a bit, of course, but it definitely seems more interesting. It would have worked perfectly, too, because literally the end of the movie is they leave the studio and then the movie just instantly ends, basically. Again, same as The Truman Show.

[29:51] Jess McAnally: We're voyeuristic the entire movie. And that is also like De Palma's whole shtick is voyeurism. It's like as soon as he leaves, that's it. Credits.

[30:01] Andrew DeWolf: Honestly, that's kind of my biggest complaint about The Truman Show is it kind of gets objective in the middle, like when we start seeing what's going on into the control rooms and there's not like a justification of what we are visually seeing. That's when that movie kind of loses air for me. So I wish that part of me just kind of wishes that movie committed to the bit a little more. I love that stuff.

[30:24] Jess McAnally: I think that's very Robocop, too, where they're talking about how like he's the first human being purchased by a corporation, you know, that kind of thing. Not the last, not the only one.

[30:33] Andrew DeWolf: That's another nice bit of info. They do explain that in the movie, though, because there's a guy doing interviews with the director.

[30:41] Jess McAnally: Only for that scene. But then we get like Paul Giamatti, like switching things.

[30:46] Andrew DeWolf: They do go to that at times. Yeah, that's true. Like that's when the movie is like, well, what are we doing here? But I mean, they also show people watching the show as well. So what else is on? You know, it's like one of the best scenes in any movie ever. I love that.

[31:05] Jess McAnally: I don't know. It's not my favorite Peter Weir or Jim Carrey's work. It's very good, though. It's great.

[31:09] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Speaking of great things, let's go into a mid show.

[31:27] ♪ Musical number: "Let There Be Light" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[32:42] Jess McAnally: Hey, guys. Sorry to interrupt your little show, but we've got a show to you. Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donation by our donors over at Patreon. And at Patreon, you get tons of fun perks, such as patron-only commentaries on a whole separate podcast where Liz and I are talking about High School Musical, the musical, the series. But I think tomorrow we're going to record a very special bonus episode on Camp Miasma, which I'm really excited about. I hope I like it better than I Saw the TV Glow, because we got a lovely—we have one of our patrons, Thezbian, who writes us very well-thought-out, multi-paragraph emails, and she sent one about how we were wrong about I Saw the TV Glow, and it was such a joy to read.

Keep writing those emails. But including our patrons, we love them. Come support us and join folks like Layton A., Ewan Cassidy, Monica Thro, Brent Black, John Vanals, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Jenna C., Nothing is Certain Except Beth, and Taxes, Thezbian, Roof Geese, E.J. Francis, Chris Marcotte, Kiji Marie Anastasio, RJ Noriega, Joe, Toriana Frazier, Sammy the Adequate amount, Jacobson, Villainous Miss, The Omega Geek, Manny Wargell, Elisa Erdman, Rrra Marasso, Mara, Puffy Boy, Anna B., Gold Play to Kiki Mora.

[34:07] Andrew DeWolf: I still can't get over the fact that they broke character recently.

[34:10] Jess McAnally: Aria Ardy, Carl Baldasso, JRL Studios, BT Fliberty Jigot, Caleb Bailey, Davin Willis, Sophia Hurtado, Jessica Pantspants, Casey Denning, Liz Munta Muro, and Jose Gonzalez. They all give us a little extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Musicals with Cheese. If you'd like to join them in supporting us and get the video episodes of the podcast where you can see Frank wearing a beautiful shirt and showing off the muscles, come join us.

[34:41] Frank: Oh, I like that. I like that.

[34:43] Jess McAnally: Oh my god. Rocky.

[34:46] Andrew DeWolf: Let's get back.

[34:52] Jess McAnally: That's good. That's good.

[34:55] Andrew DeWolf: Let's get back to the show.

[34:58] Jess McAnally: Oh,

[35:17] ♪ Musical number: "Ever After" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[37:11] Andrew DeWolf: All right. It's time for everyone's favorite part of the show. Where Frank and Andrew have to go head to head to guess whether it's a one star or five star. Based on nothing but the review alone. It's time for previews.

[37:26] Jess McAnally: It's time for previews, it's time for previews.

[37:35] Andrew DeWolf: All right, Frank, you've listened to the show. You know how this goes.

[37:38] Frank: Yes.

[37:39] Andrew DeWolf: Letterboxd reviews, one star or five stars.

[37:43] Frank: Heck yeah.

[37:44] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. Brad's Brad only went insane because he was missing Frank's ass.

[37:52] Frank: Okay, I don't think Brad actually did go insane. But, you know, we're going to give that we're going to give that a one.

[38:00] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct.

[38:03] Frank: My reasoning there was that they're a fan of the of Rocky Horror, which makes me think they're not.

[38:08] Andrew DeWolf: Why do you think that's a pretty safe bet? This is not well loved, you don't think?

[38:14] Frank: This seems like the Rocky Horror of the Rocky Horror community.

[38:19] Andrew DeWolf: If that makes any sense, like compared to normal people. I want to have a discussion about whether or not this deserves a cult following, but we'll do that later.

[38:27] Frank: Oh, we will. We will.

[38:28] Andrew DeWolf: Frank, you're up next. The Joker Folia do of the Rocky Horror saga.

[38:36] Frank: This feels like a person who means it in a complimentary way. So I'm going to go with five.

[38:42] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct, man. You're killing Joker Folia.

[38:47] Frank: Have you seen Folia do?

[38:50] Andrew DeWolf: No, I mean, I'm more interested now that I know that, like, Todd Phillips made it as like an anti-sequel, but I'm still really not interested enough to watch it for just personal reasons.

[39:03] Andrew DeWolf: Been watching other DC stuff to continue that other show on the channel. So like Lanterns, for example. So maybe we'll do the Joker movie someday. But if I'm not doing it for an explicit purpose, I'm probably never going to watch that. You heard it. We got to invite Frank on the podcast to cover Folly Adieu. It's a musical. Wow. Well, I heard it's not as much of a musical as people hyped it up to be. Yeah, but it's enough of a musical that the Joker fans didn't like it. Our Keeper of the Cheese, Juliet, started a new document when we rebooted into Musicals with Cheese and she called it Musicals with Cheese Folly Adieu.

[39:44] Jesse McAnally: That's great. That is fantastic. Yeah, it's great. Andrew.

[39:49] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Why does Jessica Harper look like a gender swap Jimmy Neutron?

[39:52] Jesse McAnally: Oh, my God. What?

[39:59] Frank: Um, fuck one. I mean, I don't know. That is correct. So far, we're having a perfect game.

[40:06] Jesse McAnally: That is so fucking mean. But also, I kind of understand.

[40:12] Andrew DeWolf: It's the face shape. She has a very particular like forehead hair.

[40:18] Jesse McAnally: Kind of forehead. Yeah, I think she's gorgeous. Even today, I think she was in the Suspiria remake and she looks amazing there, too. What's your opinion on Jimmy Neutron?

[40:27] Frank: Oh, fantastic. Very, very attractive. Most fuckable Nick.

[40:36] Andrew DeWolf: Um, Frank. Okay.

[40:44] Jesse McAnally: Why are Richard O'Brien and Patricia Quinn always playing incestuous siblings?

[40:48] Frank: Hmm. Face. I think this is also a five.

[40:53] Jesse McAnally: And I don't know why. I'm just going with my gut.

[40:56] Frank: That is correct. You have to go with your gut because if you overthink it, it's done.

[41:01] Andrew DeWolf: You get out of it gets into your head and all that.

[41:05] Jesse McAnally: I mean, is there another movie besides Rocky Horror where that happens?

[41:09] Frank: I don't. I mean, it's shock treatment.

[41:14] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, right. Right. Um, I don't think like you can't put them next to each other like, you know, like if you put them into another movie, it's going to invite comparison.

[41:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's giving me it's like the joke about the guy who's only seen Boss Baby watching his second ever movie. This is giving me real Boss Baby vibes.

[41:32] Jesse McAnally: All right, Andrew.

[41:34] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[41:37] Jesse McAnally: The Rocky Horror Truman Show.

[41:37] Frank: Accurate for sure. Does that convey any sort of emotion towards it? Not really.

[41:44] Andrew DeWolf: I'm going to go with five, though, just because it's a positive comparison, I'd say.

[41:48] Jesse McAnally: You're wrong. That was a one. You've ruined a perfect game.

[41:54] Andrew DeWolf: You have to guess at some point, you know. All right, Frank. Last one.

[41:58] Frank: Oh, God. Okay.

[41:59] Jesse McAnally: This is my Joker. This is my Joker.

[42:04] Frank: I was shocked that there were two Joker references in the shock treatment.

[42:08] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, I am become Joker. Destroyer of movies.

[42:12] Frank: All of your Joker is belong to us.

[42:15] Jesse McAnally: Fuck, I kind of want to say five again. I'm going to I'm going to lock it in.

[42:19] Frank: I'm going to say five. He's locking it in. Oh, no.

[42:23] Jesse McAnally: Frank, that is correct. And you.

[42:25] Frank: Oh, it's because I can't compete with the aura this man's bringing.

[42:31] Andrew DeWolf: I'm sorry. I will say I agree. And I am just like, you know, I'm like, I feel like I need to put a shirt on because he hits that muscle move. And I am like, it's over for me.

[42:44] Frank: I'm like, it's I'm done. Can you smell what the Frank is cooking?

[42:51] Jesse McAnally: Shatters into glass. I'm done.

[42:55] Andrew DeWolf: Um, let's talk about some of the songs really quick. I feel like the one that we could probably just sing out of nowhere, like, easily is.

[43:25] Jesse McAnally: Denton is a classic. It's a bop.

[43:37] Frank: This is maybe one of the best music theater songs ever written.

[43:40] Jesse McAnally: Are you shitting my dick?

[43:43] Frank: It's I think it's good. It's fun.

[43:46] Jesse McAnally: I mean, it's not good until you get to the part where they go, Denton, Denton, we got blue.

[43:53] Frank: No, that was very catchy.

[43:58] Jesse McAnally: It is definitely an earworm. It makes you think you're going to watch a better movie than you end up doing.

[44:02] Frank: Totally, totally.

[44:04] Jesse McAnally: And the visual styling of it, like it's very heightened, like direct to camera addresses from characters that are not relevant. And it's a break, but it's a breakout from a really folksy narrator that I think you could cut, which I think is like a really disinteresting way of opening. Just start on the Denton song and we're going to have a great time.

[44:25] Frank: Yeah, it sets up the geography. It does a lot of things well. And then we get into like a really fairly boring dialogue scene. And we follow up with Bitching in the Kitchen, which is my guilty pleasure. I think the song is great.

[44:40] Jesse McAnally: And now won't you help me to face life more, oh, in a trash can. Don't you put the dirt on me, oh, purple lady. Why are we always sooner or later? Bitching in the kitchen or crying in the bedroom all night.

[45:14] Frank: I wish I understood it, though. I get what he's saying. I get why he's saying it. I don't understand why he's talking about appliances.

[45:21] Jesse McAnally: He is on the stage of a game show. Why is he talking about appliances?

[45:26] Frank: Dear Blender, won't you help a first offender? Oh, trash can, don't you put the dirt on me? Do we have any insight onto why? Frank, do you understand the appliances?

[45:37] Frank: No, that one did not grab me. I don't think it's bad, but I think it just kind of like washed over me.

[45:46] Jesse McAnally: I think on second watch, I realized that he was singing about kitchen appliances, and then it grabbed me.

[45:51] Frank: It was like, wait.

[45:53] Jesse McAnally: It took you two watches to get that?

[45:55] Frank: No, I mean, I got it the first time. Like, I understood what he was singing about, but it was like, I guess I thought maybe it would be explained why he was singing about that. And then I realized, like, that never is explained. Like, I don't understand.

[46:07] Jesse McAnally: Fair enough. It technically takes the place of an I Want song, because there isn't a true blue I Want song in this. And I guess the I Want is, I want Brad to be well, and Brad doesn't want to go to a mental hospital.

[46:19] Frank: Yeah, Brad is already well. So in a way, they just need to leave the TV studio. And then, here's like my bold take. Frank, I know you and I talked a bit about how Jessica Harper's voice is very good. I prefer it to Susan Sarandon's in the original.

[46:37] Jesse McAnally: Oh, I had no idea that's who played Janet.

[46:40] Frank: Oh, yeah. And she has like this very high head voice.

[46:43] Jesse McAnally: And Jessica Harper has this very low.

[46:46] Frank: Yeah, she's like an alto. And I mean, I've never heard Susan Sarandon sing, but I'd imagine she's more of a soprano.

[46:52] Jesse McAnally: Definitely. That, yeah, it's very nasally, very in the head.

[46:56] Frank: I don't like any of Janet's songs in this movie. I think all of them are a fucking snore.

[47:02] Jesse McAnally: It's hard, because when you hear them, or at least when I hear them, I just think about how much better the ones in Phantom of the Paradise are. I listen to that constantly. Like Faust alone outmogs every one of these songs.

[47:15] Frank: Yeah, absolutely.

[47:17] Jesse McAnally: But as far as like songs I really like, or at least scenes I really like, I already talked about Lullaby, so I don't really want to talk too much about that one, unless you guys have much to say.

[47:26] Frank: Yeah, I like that one. I don't have much more to say, though. I do know we have to highlight what is kind of the breakout song of the movie, and is the title song, and works in that Shock Treatment.

[48:05] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, I was going to say, I just pulled it up on Spotify, and even though I had never watched the movie before, I'm looking at the full soundtrack, and Shock Treatment is already in my liked songs, inexplicably. Like I must have listened to it at some point, thanks to the algorithm, and was like, hey, this is pretty good. I don't think that's ever happened. But no, this song is great. It is actually shot very well. It's got energy. It kind of works as its own little music video in the middle of the movie, disconnected from everything else.

[48:50] Frank: And frankly, it's the most Rocky Horror feeling. I know that means nothing really much to you, but this is like all my friends from Rocky Horror singing this song. Like you got Columbia, we got Magenta, we got Riff Raff, all singing this song to me, and it's all my friends. It's got that same energy. And if the rest of the movie lived up to this moment, this would be at the same level, if not better than Rocky Horror.

[49:16] Jesse McAnally: Not only does it not live up to this moment though, it doesn't even come close. Like they don't even do Shock Treatment. He never gets the Shock Treatment. I wanted to see that.

[49:25] Frank: Yeah, I guess you're right. They're too busy putting on dresses on Janet.

[49:29] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, and speaking of, I think Little Black Dress was pretty good too. That is kind of how I perceive Rocky Horror music to sound.

[49:36] Frank: There's one thing you just can't beat. And that's the strapless, backless, classical Little Black Dress.

[49:43] Jesse McAnally: Well, first you go rip, rip, rip. Then you go snip, snip, snip. Then you whip it a zip, zip, zip. And split it up to the hip, hip, hip. And a new strip, strip, strip. And shiver, shiver, shiver. For that softer edge as you slip, slip, slip into that Little Black Dress.

[50:08] Frank: Just because of the instrumentation. Little Black Dress to me was the moment where I was like, oh, they want this to be a cult thing. They're picturing this as one of the big cult moments.

[50:16] Jesse McAnally: Right. Because the doctor guy has no real reason to start singing about how to make a black dress, but he just kind of does.

[50:27] Frank: Yeah.

[50:29] Jesse McAnally: And then the lyrics like the snip, snip, snip. It's like, okay.

[50:33] Frank: You know what it reminds me of?

[50:36] Jesse McAnally: It's exactly what you're saying. It's trying to be a call and response thing for audiences.

[50:41] Frank: And you know what else does the same fucking thing? It's the Zydrate song from Reap of the Genetic Opera, where they have the call and response already in the fucking song.

[50:50] Jesse McAnally: That's another one that was trying to be cult, right?

[50:52] Frank: Well, that one successfully became cult. That's getting a 4K release later this year.

[50:57] Jesse McAnally: That one did it somehow.

[50:59] Frank: That one did it, but also it's an intentional. I think that is the closest successor to Rocky Horror we've had. Unless we're ignoring something that's actually good in camp, like Little Shop of Horrors, which I would not count.

[51:14] Jesse McAnally: Good in camp is different than bad in camp. Little Shop of Horrors is a functionally perfect thing.

[51:19] Frank: Yeah, it's great.

[51:21] Jesse McAnally: Do we want to talk about dual duet with the two Brads? Brad versus Brad? I don't care.

[52:05] Andrew DeWolf: That's the one that's like more of a punk song, right?

[52:07] Frank Seacon: Yeah.

[52:08] Andrew DeWolf: I like that because, I mean, it sounds different than a lot of the other songs on the soundtrack. And also, this movie came out in '81, right? So pretty early. I mean, I know punk has sort of been going on since like the mid to late '70s by this point, but it just felt like, I don't know, sort of on the cutting edge. Like, it felt like a convincing punk song to me. This is another scene that reminded me a lot of "Phantom of the Paradise," where we have like intercutting scenes with a live performance without the De Palma split screens going on.

[52:41] Jesse McAnally: See, I always get funky about diegetic songs in the middle of a non-diegetic musical. So that one kind of washed over me. But it's interesting to know that that stuck with you, just because, I mean, Andrew, we know you love punk and you think that punk is the best thing ever.

[52:56] Andrew DeWolf: I think punk is really good for going to the bar and getting hammered. It's really good if you want to drive recklessly as well.

[53:06] Frank Seacon: Well, that's after you're at the bar.

[53:08] Andrew DeWolf: Of course. Or after you've pre-gamed at home and decided to get behind the wheel.

[53:15] Jesse McAnally: You heard that. Frank Seacon says, drink and drive, kids.

[53:18] Frank Seacon: Well, I'm just saying if you're going to, you might want to put on Black Flag or Suicidal Tendencies or something.

[53:26] Andrew DeWolf: I honestly, I think punk is good. I'm of the opinion that it's fine. I thought, okay, remind me, you said that punk sucks because punk people think "Rent" is punk. You said that years ago.

[53:36] Frank Seacon: This was a long time ago.

[53:39] Andrew DeWolf: It was a long time ago, but you said like...

[53:41] Frank Seacon: I've changed my mind on punk. I've changed my mind.

[53:46] Andrew DeWolf: Also, "Rent" is not punk. If you think "Rent" is punk, you're not punk. Now I get to decide what punk is. I don't know why.

[53:55] Frank Seacon: Jesse, have you seen the musical "Rent"?

[53:57] Jesse McAnally: Isn't that about people getting AIDS?

[54:01] Frank Seacon: Yes.

[54:03] Jesse McAnally: You've seen the South Park movie thing.

[54:05] Frank Seacon: Well, I've seen the South Park movie. I don't know. Did they make fun of "Rent"?

[54:08] Jesse McAnally: I don't think I saw that episode.

[54:10] Frank Seacon: Well, the other one.

[54:11] Jesse McAnally: The puppet one. "Team America."

[54:13] Frank Seacon: Oh, no, I actually haven't seen "Team America."

[54:16] Jesse McAnally: They have a song called "Everyone Has AIDS" making fun of "Rent."

[54:18] Frank Seacon: Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, I think "Rent" is a big punching bag. I feel like I've seen people make fun of that all the time in other TV shows or movies.

[54:28] Jesse McAnally: That was one of the first things I had Andrew watch when we started this 10 years ago. And he's like, you know what? I'm going to go into the best interest. And he did all the research and he's like, now "Rent" sucks shit.

[54:39] Andrew DeWolf: I really didn't like it. I still don't like it. It was an important show. It had its impact. Yada, yada, yada. Still think it sucks shit.

[54:49] Jesse McAnally: Speaking of sucking shit, what is our overall thoughts on "Shock Treatment" and our cheese ratings? And, you know, generally, why do you think that this didn't hit with the crowd the way "The Rocky Horror" did? Just I'd like to hear that from everyone as well. Andrew, why don't you start us off?

[55:03] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, so I really don't think it's that bad. Is this like a super hot take? But like "Rocky Horror" is funny bad, right? Like it's not like a great movie. It's funny because it's camp and it's not particularly good. I don't understand. I don't understand why this can't be good. Like this can't be a cult movie. We're so far beyond the studio like forcing this to be cult. I think we could make it actually cult now. Well, like we're like 40 years past the release date. Let's do it. "Shock Treatment." Let's make it happen.

[55:33] Frank Seacon: Are you kidding me? Are you fucking kidding me?

[55:37] Andrew DeWolf: I'm not kidding. Like we can watch it. We can all do the Denton thing where we go, "Denton, Denton." And there you gotta be slightly out of sync with everyone like they are in the audience.

[55:47] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, we can have the little black dress. We'll do the snip, snip, snip, like whatever. Who fucking cares? Like it's worse. Whatever. I think it's fine. I think I don't think it's that much worse than "Rocky Horror." I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy. I don't know.

[56:06] Frank Seacon: I mean, the argument is like "Rocky Horror" at least has a genre it's making fun of and tropes it's playing with. This is nonsense.

[56:12] Andrew DeWolf: Well, now it does. This is it's absolutely in touch with modern culture. Like we are sucked into our screens at all times. There's so many reality TV stars and influencers and we're constantly being told that we're sick and being drugged up. I mean, come on, man. Like I guess it did. It's time. It did kind of grow into its. I guess it did kind of grow into itself in a way. But I still think it's a movie. It's "Shock Treatment" time. I don't know if it's worth a reappraisal as like a good movie, though. I think we can acknowledge it's not a good movie.

[56:45] Frank Seacon: Yeah. It's not a good movie.

[56:46] Andrew DeWolf: It's a bad. I think we can acknowledge that it has good ideas and it was prescient, but I don't know if it deserves the kind of like cultural. You got to see where I'm coming from here, though. Why is "Rocky Horror" well known? It's because you go at midnight and you get fucking trash. And you wear the fishnets. And you throw shit at the screen and you throw shit at the screen. That's not a good movie. People don't watch that because it's a good movie. You watch that because you can get drunk with a bunch of other people around and you can chant shit at the screen. You can do that with "Shock Treatment." It would work. You're drunk watching this. It's fun. I saw I'm in for "Shock Treatment." We're good.

[57:20] Andrew DeWolf: I don't have a cheese rating yet. I don't know. Somebody else go.

[57:33] Frank Seacon: Fucking Christ, man. All right, Frank, you're next.

[57:36] Frank Seacon: Yeah, I mean, you know, like I said at the top, I just felt like it was very hard to follow. I didn't know about any of the issues behind the scenes. I love that kind of stuff, though. So I'm glad you told us about that. It's interesting, but it just really doesn't come together for me. And the soundtrack is not bad. Like, I think I probably will give the soundtrack another listen, but I don't think it's worth bringing back into the culture. Just because I feel like there are other movies since then that have done the reality TV thing better, like "The Truman Show."

[58:09] Andrew DeWolf: Not to say that.

[58:10] Frank Seacon: You're not going to get drunk, though, and watch "The Truman Show."

[58:13] Andrew DeWolf: No, well, I mean, you could get drunk watching. You just have to have the right attitude. But as for my cheese rating, I just found this. So I was trying to look up cheese at a hospital, and I just found this individually packaged cheese slice that I just put it in the chat. If anybody wants to see that. So you can buy a slice of cheese on a paper plate for 39 cents. I don't know. I think that's. Yeah, please show everybody. That's my cheese rating to see 39 cents. Oh, it expires in 2024, though.

[58:54] Andrew DeWolf: Was that even a leap year?

[58:57] Frank Seacon: I think it is. I think it's every four years.

[58:59] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. All right. I don't think you can beat that, Andrew.

[59:04] Andrew DeWolf: God, she's waiting for me. Yeah, I've got a French power station turning cheese into electricity for inhabitants of Albertville. It doesn't tell you what type of cheese. It's just French cheese. But you know what? We're giving it French cheese being turned into electricity for citizens of Albertville.

[59:25] Frank Seacon: Again? Andrew, you can't be pulling these boring choices out of your ass.

[59:31] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, sorry. I meant cheddar.

[59:34] Jesse McAnally: Okay, but "Shock Treatment" or "The Apple"?

[59:38] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, oh, fuck "The Apple."

[59:42] Frank Seacon: The apple's too boring.

[59:43] Andrew DeWolf: The thing is, we need to watch "Xanadu" because when I saw "Mamma Mia," they did a "Rocky Horror"-style midnight screening of "Mamma Mia" where they perform it in front of the stage. They played a commercial for "Xanadu" before this thing, and I was like, oh, fuck, is "Xanadu" actually fun to watch? So that might be added to our list soon because that looked like a fucking blast, not gonna lie.

[1:00:07] Frank Seacon: Okay, okay. But "The Apple," I don't know. People love the apple thing. It's really hilarious.

[1:00:11] Andrew DeWolf: I don't find it that funny. I think the last five minutes are funny.

[1:00:17] Frank Seacon: My cheese rating is this cheese snack called Watts from the creators of Takis. They have cheese shock, and they're shaped like little electric bolts.

[1:00:30] Andrew DeWolf: Wow.

[1:00:32] Frank Seacon: I don't want to change my rating, but I did just come up with a comparison. It's kind of like those mazes that lab mice go through with the cheese that's got the current running through it.

[1:00:44] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, the whole movie is kind of like you're in one of those mazes.

[1:00:47] Frank Seacon: Yeah. And then you get nothing at the end.

[1:00:50] Andrew DeWolf: You get no cheese.

[1:00:51] Frank Seacon: You get to leave the maze.

[1:00:52] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, you get to leave. You get the sweet release of the movie being over. I don't think the movie is bad enough for that, but I also don't think it's good enough for anything more.

[1:01:04] Jesse McAnally: You know, we've got no tension, Frank.

[1:01:13] Jesse McAnally: Thank you for joining us. Please promote your content and where people can find you.

[1:01:17] Frank Seacon: Yeah, absolutely. So I have a number of shows. I mean, currently, too, but we're about to start the third one, because on Monday, the last episode of "Raccoon Shitty" or "Resident Evil Retrospective" goes up where we talk about Zack Krager's movie. The next one, "Breaking News," is going to be called "Restart of Darkness," and it's going to be about Universal's attempt to reboot the Dark Universe. So we'll be talking about "The Mummy" with Tom Cruise, and you think it would end right there, but there's actually a few more movies that kind of spawned from that that were aborted projects from the Dark Universe.

[1:01:56] Jesse McAnally: Are you going to talk about the theme park they made out of it?

[1:01:59] Frank Seacon: You know, I've tried to convince my co-hosts to, you know, buy in to go to Universal so we could do a bonus episode on the Dark Universe theme park, and they just don't want to spend like $500 for some reason to buy tickets for that.

[1:02:14] Jesse McAnally: Oh, jeez. Who could imagine?

[1:02:17] Frank Seacon: But you can find me on Spotify, Apple Music, pretty much anywhere on the handle Frank Podcast, and a little confusing. I also stream on Twitch under the handle Frank Broadcast, less so recently because I think I'm just falling out of love with video games. But, you know, I do stream and I do the podcast thing too. So, yeah. Also, you are one of the few people that do Instagram right, where I actually very much look forward to every one of your posts and stories.

[1:02:44] Jesse McAnally: Oh, thank you. I cannot recommend you following Frank on Instagram enough because he's actually funny.

[1:02:48] Frank Seacon: At Frank Broadcast, because I didn't want to make a new handle just for the podcast stuff, so it all goes on one social media handle.

[1:02:55] Jesse McAnally: Thank you so much, Frank. You are a gentleman and a scholar, and he's been around behind the scenes. If you liked our drunk "Mamma Mia" night, he was the one running camera that night.

[1:03:05] Frank Seacon: That's true. Yeah, I was on the switcher. I think one of the Tony streams. I was on camera, I think, for that near the end.

[1:03:13] Jesse McAnally: Yes. No, it was a game show night where Andrew and I had trivia as well.

[1:03:20] Frank Seacon: Sorry, I'm mixing it up. Frank's been behind the scenes of "Musicals with Cheese" for years, so I'm grateful we got him on and I can promote his podcast. And if you want, I've been guests on both the DCPU and "Raccoon Shitty" for "Birds of Prey" and "Resident Evil," I think, "Afterlife."

[1:03:38] Frank Seacon: Yes.

[1:03:41] Jesse McAnally: With respect, no memory of that movie. Listening to that episode, I was like, man, I had all these thoughts. I have no memory of watching this. I think once we publish the finale on Monday, I will completely memory hole this entire franchise.

[1:03:55] Frank Seacon: Yeah, maybe, maybe not. I know that's not the best way to sell it to viewers of "Musicals with Cheese," but yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

[1:04:05] Jesse McAnally: Anytime. If you ever go to the movie theaters and say, hey, that was a musical, come back.

[1:04:12] Frank Seacon: Yeah, well, maybe we'll talk about "Digger." We'll see.

[1:04:15] Jesse McAnally: Thank you very much, Frank. And we will see you next time on "Musicals with Cheese."

[1:04:21] Andrew DeWolf: Bye-bye.

[1:04:32] Frank Seacon: You should watch "The Rocky Horror Show."

[1:04:33] Andrew DeWolf: I will.