This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Dan Tracy: Welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals. Welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals.

[0:04] Joe Carroll: Tyler's here. Tyler Hanes is in the house and we are talking about Chicago.

[0:13] Dan Tracy: So an actor is saying his lines and then out of nowhere he just starts singing. Tyler, how are you? What's going on? Thank you for coming to talk to us.

[0:44] Tyler Hanes: Oh, no, thanks for having me. It's my pleasure. I'm good. I'm good. I'm just, you know, another day in pandemic life and staying in the city and talking with you guys.

[0:54] Joe Carroll: Yeah. So it's good to nerd out about musicals when there's not a lot of musical stuff to look forward to.

[1:01] Tyler Hanes: That's right. Totally. You know, and this week we're talking about Chicago because we love it, because it's musical theater history and it's iconic, but also because you can watch it. We're trying to highlight shows these days that you can actually see. And so we'll talk about the Academy Award winning Best Picture, Rob Marshall directed version of Chicago, and we'll talk about the Broadway version of Chicago and Tyler's Broadway versions, both Broadway versions and the West End and the tours.

[1:31] Dan Tracy: Yes. And the 2012 University of Michigan production of Chicago where Dan and Joe wore their mesh tops and danced in the chorus.

[1:36] Tyler Hanes: Absolute classic.

[1:44] Joe Carroll: Oh, man, we tried so hard. We really... I don't know how I got cast in that, but we'll talk about that in a second. You can watch Chicago, the musical, the Rob Marshall film on Showtime, or you can rent it on Amazon Prime for three ninety-nine. It slaps everyone.

[1:56] Tyler Hanes: Yep. It is. I think what Tyler and I were messaging about this, it is perhaps the best movie musical of all time. I will stand by that.

[2:09] Joe Carroll: Definitely the best modern movie musical of all time. And it started arguably that kind of revolution. It was like that Moulin Rouge. And then all of a sudden, all of these things were being made into musicals, then you have Music Man and you have now the modern era where we're seeing all the remakes of all the old Disney movies and stuff.

[2:24] Tyler Hanes: Totally. So as we get into this, we need to nerd out about Tyler's career real quick because you have an unbelievable resume. And so we'll just we're going to rip through this and make you feel uncomfortable for a second. But Tyler graduated from Carnegie Mellon, made his Broadway debut in Oklahoma, correct?

[2:38] Tyler Hanes: Yes, yes. And I didn't graduate from Carnegie Mellon on the Carnegie Mellon drop. He went to Carnegie Mellon and then booked his Broadway debut while he was there. Joe.

[2:47] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Yeah. Iconic. Iconic. The things that we wanted to do. We wanted to not graduate from Michigan. That's like the Steve Jobs version of musical theater, right? Like to drop like, you know, you drop out of college to go be on Broadway. There's like a list of Taylor Louderman, Aaron Tveit, Tyler Hancher.

[3:07] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, that's that. They're much fancier. But no, I mean, it definitely like you know, I was there for a year and then got a show and I kind of was sneaking away and auditioning and but you're not supposed to. Right. Jumped on that bus. Yeah. And you're there to work, you know, like, you know, we all want to work. And then Broadway companies of Urban Cowboy, Boy From Oz, The Frogs, which I've never heard of.

[3:30] Tyler Hanes: Not a lot of people have or saw it. But you know what? Hey, listen, a Broadway credit is a Broadway credit. Sweet Charity, A Chorus Line, Hairspray, On the Town and most recently Rome Tum Tugger and the Broadway Revival of Cats. A whole bunch of other cool stuff. Off-Broadway musical Juno, which I love. And this is very cool. Recurrent is Jerry Orbach and the Fosse Verden Show on FX. Jerry Orbach was, as we get into, the original Billy Flynn in Chicago.

[4:10] Dan Tracy: This is great. This is fantastic. Yeah. So notably, like you haven't been in Chicago, but Chicago is your favorite musical.

[4:17] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. So my history, kind of like backing it up with Chicago was when I was in high school, I saw like the first national tour with Charlotte Noir and Jasmine Guy. And I'm from Atlanta. So and Charlotte wasn't on her understudy. Belle Calloway was on and she was amazing. But I didn't really like I really liked the show when I saw it and I thought it was like, you know, sexy and I liked the story. But it wasn't until that summer I went and Graham King used to have this. It's still around. It's called Broadway Theater Project. But I went to that program and this is in like 98. And we did, you know, we did like Razzle Dazzle. She set that. But I remember one day it was like it was like it was a three week thing.

And all of a sudden one day she was like doing a Q&A. And I don't know where she just went to the Roxy monologue and just did it. So good. But it was like like out of nowhere. You want to know something and then just like stop. Everyone was like she just like drew you in and like gave you tears and stillness and everything. And it blew my mind. It blew my mind. And Mary Lou Henner, I think, was playing Roxy at that point on Broadway because she came down and talked to us during that week. And then I went to that following January with my high school. We went like on a trip. And so I saw Chicago again. But it was Bebe Neuwerth came back into the show as Velma. And this time we were on like the second row and it was the closest I'd ever been to the stage watching something like that.

And I swear, just like her entrance up that elevator doing that porter bra, like that for me was so it was just everything. Like it just it was that's where I feel like things change for me as a person, because that's when I was like, I want to do that and I want to do this. And then I like bought a bunch of the merch that night and like, you know, just geeked out. And then from that point on, I kind of just I think I've seen this show more than any show. I love it. I've never done it. But the full circle moment was the Fosse-Verdon, like, you know, Cheerio Orbana. Because you did the Fosse National Tour too, right?

[6:42] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. Yeah.

[6:43] Dan Tracy: Which was like an early job for you right out of high school?

[6:46] Tyler Hanes: So summer after my senior year, I went back to Broadway Theatre Project, worked with Anne again, and worked with Gwen Verdon this time because she was visiting. It was crazy because it was working with the three of them and then Ben Green came down too. And so it was just like, you know, they set a bunch of different numbers on us for this showcase. And during that time, they asked me to join the first national tour of Fosse.

[7:14] Tyler Hanes: Offers only. Goals.

[7:18] Tyler Hanes: It was pretty cool. I'm not going to lie. But yeah, so then I went on the road for a year with that show. I was too young to be in that show. I was like 17, like had a bowl cut and everything. Now, how much of Chicago did they do in Fosse? Because I haven't seen Fosse. I know you can actually watch that too. There's a recording of that. How much Chicago was in it?

[7:36] Tyler Hanes: They did, I think only three numbers. There's Hot Honey Rag, there's Nowadays in a Hot Honey Rag, and then Razzle Dazzle. And I think that's it.

[7:51] Joe Carroll: No All That Jazz, huh? Like they wouldn't do All That Jazz?

[7:53] Tyler Hanes: No, but the thing, what's interesting is if you watch Fosse Verdon, there's two episodes that are, Chicago was like the theme in it. And they did, they learned the original All That Jazz, which is not that similar to the one that everybody knows now. So that was pretty cool. Like just watching, I wasn't in that number, but watching how different his take on it was than what Anne Rankings was. But she choreographed, I think like, I'm almost positive that Nowadays in a Hot Honey Rag is the same in the revival as his original choreography. But she did everything just in the style of.

[8:32] Joe Carroll: But I think we learned Anne Rankings All That Jazz is the one that we did at Michigan together, which was our audition, which was a very funny day in the life of 21 and 22 year old Joe and Dan. Just trying, we just had like, we were just, we're like, we want to, we want to be able to dance in ensembles and we want to work. We want to be in Broadway shows to be in Broadway shows. You have to know Fosse choreography, man, we tried and man, did we look silly.

[9:01] Tyler Hanes: Especially me.

[9:04] Joe Carroll: Well, because I think the thing with Fosse too, and Tyler, you can speak to this more than I can, but like it looks so pedestrian, it looks so easy and it is so unbelievably difficult. Like when you actually, I think that's kind of part of the magic of it.

[9:16] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, I would agree. I think it's also something that it, the older it gets better with age, like you understand it better. I know when I was doing Fosse on the road and like I said, I was 17 and I was dancing so hard and too much and I was too big and they were just like, like reel it in, bro. Like, because it just wasn't, I was in a totally different show, but I was also, I just didn't really understand the, I mean, I understood the vocabulary and whatnot and the world, but I wasn't mature enough, I guess. Something I feel like as I get older and I keep coming back to it, I learned something new about it or it sits a little better or I understand the subtleties of it. But yeah, it's definitely, it looks a lot easier than it is, but that's why it's so good.

[10:08] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it looks like it doesn't require any technique, but trying to do it, you realize that you can only do it with technique. Like it's, it's just one of those.

[10:16] Tyler Hanes: It can only, and it can look so bad. Like it can look, people do it, it can look so bad, case in point, Dan and Joe, but that's, I love that we're just like ragging ourselves.

[10:28] Dan Tracy: Yeah, but that's, I mean, I think Dan, that's, that's, I don't know if you have an earlier memory of the show, but I definitely, I saw the movie with my mom in theaters. She took me to all those movies. So I remember seeing it. I remember just being absolutely blown away. And then to do this research this week that like, that was Rob Marshall's first movie, which is like, it's in, and it may go down as, you know, debatably, arguably the best movie musical of all time. And then Dan and I, we did it in, we did it in college. And I think, cause should I tell my, my, my drummer, my story?

[11:03] Joe Carroll: I was going to, I was going to just out Joe that on the final day of performances, you know, in college, you only do one weekend, just like kind of in high school. So in the final day of performances, the drummer who was the head of the drum faculty at the school was having, had a herniated disc in his back and literally couldn't sit. So Joe, the morning of our final show had to go in as the drummer and sight read the drum chart of this show. And there we are like getting ready to do all that jazz.

[11:33] Tyler Hanes: The swing has to go on for Joe's track, which who even has a swing in high school. It was like some flute in college, some fluke that that even happened. Izzy McCalla was the female swing, I think. Right. And the assistant dance captain or something. And, um, and Joe just so crushed.

[11:48] Joe Carroll: Well, it was a fill. Yeah. Well, it's you're, you're pretty close on that story. So what happened, it was act two. I came in for act two, the drummer, the head of the drummer. And that's right. He tried to, he had, he had basic, what happened was he had had a procedure. He had had surgery and the surgery went wrong and he was feeling like super ill. And he was like throwing up all day leading up to the final performance. And Cynthia pulled me aside before the show. Our music director pulled me aside before the show and said, Hey, listen, the drummer's really, really sick work. If in an emergency, like, like he might have to go to the hospital. And do you think that you could sight read the second act of Chicago?

And I was like, I mean, like, you just don't say no, you don't say no. I'm especially not 22 year old. Joe did not say no to anything. It was like, I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. So, um, so we get done with act one and I'm, I'm checking in. I'm like, you know, is this going to happen? Is this going to happen? And eventually we get to intermission and I'm like, and it, and here we go. He has to go back to the hospital. He can barely stand. He's getting all feverish. And so I sit down at the drums and the way that the drums was set up in the pit. And I think it's like this on Broadway, it was kind of in the middle. And I sat down and just did the best I could through the entire courtroom scene, which is all like zips and cowbells and weird crashes and people on stage. I'm sure we're like, what the fuck is happening?

[13:16] Tyler Hanes: No, I can, I can attest. I played Harrison. So I was the courtroom judge and that's like, what's my little feature. And I don't remember anything being weird. I, the only thing I remember really screwing up was, um, honestly, right out of the get. I, uh, I know a girl. She says she's going to have a baby. Now, why didn't I think of that? Can you imagine? I mean, can you imagine?

[13:40] Joe Carroll: Do you believe it? I mean, do you believe it?

[13:47] Tyler Hanes: I forget it was like some fills or some things like I was getting my, my, my hands together. And I just, I remember I could kind of see Casey who was playing Velma in our production. And she was like, I was like, Oh my God, I like the wheels are coming off. The wheels are coming off. This is not going to work. And then like, and then it was fine. And then it ended up being okay. But yeah, it was, it was one of the craziest theatrical experiences of my life. Sight reading the second act of Chicago. I love that story so much still in my, in my, in my mesh, like cut off with no, no, still like I had eyeliner on, I think I kept the bowler hat on, like, you know,

[14:22] Joe Carroll: Yeah, anyway, it worked out and everybody, you know, it was a cool, it was a cool moment.

[14:26] Dan Tracy: So that's awesome. Yeah, yeah, it was wild. We didn't talk about this. Well, I want to get into the show. But Tyler and I, the way that Tyler and I know each other, we did a workshop of a Michael John LaChiusa musical back in the fall of 2014, I think. Yeah, yeah. And a new Michael John LaChiusa musical. And it was directed by Graciela Danielle, who was the original Hunyak in Chicago, which is crazy. She's a Tony Award winning choreographer and director and has done a bunch of stuff with Chita Rivera. But that was kind of a bizarre, also cool, like connection worlds melding sort of thing.

[15:01] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, I really hope that something happens with that production because Tyler and I both have, we get a point on that production if it makes any money.

[15:12] Dan Tracy: It doesn't exist anymore.

[15:16] Joe Carroll: Yeah, exactly. That's gonna be our retirement. Right. Yes. Dan, did you have any more of a connection with the show before doing it at school?

[15:22] Dan Tracy: I remember watching the movie more than a dozen times, like in my parents' basement. I don't know why, like I have this very specific memory of watching it in my parents' basement. It was such a good movie. Rewatching it again after kind of doing all of the work that we've been doing recently, Joe, with writing and studying films and studying like structure, looking at the way Rob Marshall and Bill Condon put together the first seven minutes of the show before basically leading to the end of all that jazz is probably the greatest seven minutes setup of a movie. It teaches you everything you need to know in a way that's super unique, that's super dynamic.

[16:08] Joe Carroll: They do so many brilliant things in this movie with cutting between cinematic devices and theatrical devices, which I think is so cool, like putting the numbers on stages, which is awesome.

[16:19] Dan Tracy: Yeah. And the way that that editing style and all of that happens in the first seven minutes of this movie are like second to none, in my opinion. I can't think of another movie that does it as well as that.

[16:29] Joe Carroll: Totally. It's like the best of both worlds. You know, it is like it's the best of film and the best of theater. You know, they don't try to separate it. Like the scenes are very quiet and very intimate. And then the production numbers are like, OK, here's Taye Diggs and he's going to step out and be like, you know, now we're doing cell block tango and we're just going to do it and we're going to film it and it's going to be sick and then we're going to go back to the story.

[16:52] Dan Tracy: You know, I think with this musical, though, because it goes up, it goes from like breaking the fourth wall immediately in the show, breaks the fourth wall and then it goes in a fantasy, then it goes into reality and then it goes into a scene. I think it translated really well onto the screen because it already had that device built into it. So then it's just like Roxy's lens. It just it works so perfectly and it doesn't make it, you know, and so and that's that's tricky with a musical like movie. Right. You find a device like that.

[17:25] Joe Carroll: And I think that's where I know with like fun fact, Rob Marshall, he was originally supposed to direct Rent and he went in for his meeting to talk about or he went in for a meeting to talk about Rent. But he was like, actually, I want to do Chicago.

[17:46] Dan Tracy: Oh, they shelved Rent for a couple of years, like three more years, because he really like sold him with the whole through the lens of Roxy through her eyes. That's all.

[17:56] Joe Carroll: Wow. What different movie musicals those two are.

[18:04] Dan Tracy: Yeah, truly. I love that. I love that. I'm not coming for it. I just I think that if we get into the Rotten Tomatoes section of this, people think very differently about the Rent movie.

[18:13] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Chicago movie.

[18:22] Dan Tracy: That's true. Should we get into some history? Let's talk about some fun, some facts, some historical context for this baby.

[18:27] Joe Carroll: Me and my baby. Yikes.

[18:27] Dan Tracy: Me and my baby. Chicago opened the original production of Chicago opened on June 3rd, 1975 at the 46th Street Theater and ran for nine hundred thirty six performances. It starred Chita Rivera, Gwen Verdon, Jerry Orbach, played by Tyler Hanes and Fosse/Verdon and Barney Martin as Amos Hart. The show is directed and choreographed by Bob Fosse, who was in the prime slash peak of his career at this point. He had already won eight Academy Awards for Cabaret. So I would say that he was doing pretty damn well for himself.

[19:07] Joe Carroll: He'd made his name working on shows like Damn Yankees, Sweet Charity, Pajama Game and Pippin and obviously the Cabaret movie that I've already mentioned. And this was this was the year you wrote this down that this was the year that he won. He got it in a single year. That was in 72.

[19:17] Dan Tracy: It was the right. He's the only person to ever win an Oscar, an Emmy and a Tony in one year.

[19:25] Joe Carroll: The next one will be Jeremy Pope, I'm sure. But like, you know, it was Bob Fosse. And yeah, yeah. He's obviously a legend. He went on to make some movies after this and had about another 10 years or so of his career. And there's lots of great movies. I used to love watching that movie. All That Jazz is such a good movie.

[19:34] Dan Tracy: Yeah. The revival production started at City Center Encores, which is a week of a weekend series where they play musicals that are very rarely heard. And three times a year, they present concert versions of these productions at their venue off Broadway. This production was directed by Walter Bobby with new choreography set by Ann Reinking in the style of Bob Fosse. And she also reprised her role as Roxy Hart. And B.B. Neuwirth played Velma Kelly. Joel Gray was Amos Hart and James Naughton was Billy Flynn. That production was then picked up by Fran and Barry Weissler, the producers of many shows, including Waitress, and was taken to Broadway and is the production that is currently running on Broadway now.

[20:27] Joe Carroll: I wonder what in the style of Bob Fosse, like what kind of credit is that? Honestly, I'm just wondering, like financially speaking, obviously, you know, she obviously came up with her own thing, but I don't know. Did you guys do that with Cats? Wasn't there some of the Cats too that it was?

[20:43] Dan Tracy: Yeah, it kind of it was interesting because with Cats, it was it was it was like half and it wasn't like half and half, but it was a lot of Gillian Lynn and a lot of Blankenbuehler.

[20:55] Joe Carroll: Yeah, you know, the percentage I don't really know, but it's right in the style of and what I know it to be, especially with Bob Fosse, because I think it was like this with Pippin too. I think there are things that remain intact, like Manson Trio and the Pippin. Manson Trio, right. There are things that they can like all that jazz, for example, and Reinking redid that or but it's all using his vocabulary and her and Chet Walker, who were, you know, his protégés are the best people to do that because, you know, they were under his wing.

[21:33] Dan Tracy: But that's what I always know it to be. It's like it's got some of the original and some brand new stuff. And I think that it's it obviously worked out for her great with that. She got a Tony. But like totally it's what people it's interesting because I think the Chicago Revival now everybody associates what they think of with Bob Fosse is like all black. And that's not necessarily true. Like you go back to the original one and it's so different and there's not there's not footage out there, but it's it's kind of hard to come by. But there's like I don't know if you guys have seen that on YouTube. They have like the I think it's like the commercial. I know that's dancing. I think there's a Chicago commercial, though, like a TV one that's like from the original production from the original.

[22:06] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I've I only know the the like the Tony performance. I mean, like you can find that one, but that's kind of just as shimmery and shiny as it is in the Revival.

[22:27] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[22:27] Joe Carroll: Oh, that's so interesting because I wonder if that was because I was like that this this revival was so pared down. And the reason that, frankly, it's made so much money and lasted so long is because it is it was so cheap and so sort of bare bones, you know, such a bare bones production. But that the all black thing, I wonder if that was just like a costume out of choice that, you know, like city center, you rehearse for six days or something. You have no time to put it together. I wonder if they're just like, screw it, just like just wear your dance blacks and like we'll figure it out later.

[23:03] Dan Tracy: I mean, I will say this. The marketing for the revival is brilliant. Like, yeah, it's iconic. Like you see it and it's like black, white, red block. And it's just like this show is sexy.

[23:15] Joe Carroll: Yeah. And I think with the minimalist approach that they took, it's kind of funny because the original one came out the same. It was the same year as Chorus Line. Chorus Line is so it's like two costumes and it's a lot and mirrors and that. And so it's like with this revival, a part of me, I thought about this at one point because I was like, I wonder if they just took a page out of that book and we're like, we're just going to make it, you know, really simple and really, you know, one set, it's a bandstand, you know, a bra and like, you know, a boulder cap.

[23:49] Dan Tracy: Right. Broadway show. A couple of canes and call it a day.

[23:53] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Yeah. The only thing you're really paying for is dance shoes. And other than that, it's like there's not really as much cost. And they were talking about that this week with Six returning in London, that the key to these shows running for a long time is that they're cheap to run. And obviously, Chicago has hit the nail on the head with that. Even having the budget in there to hire plenty of celebrities to come in and fill their stages.

[24:19] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[24:19] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Which which is it?

[24:25] Dan Tracy: Yeah. The original production. Sorry. Go ahead.

[24:29] Joe Carroll: No, I was just going to say that's why I mean, we're going to get to this, too. But like that Chorus Line in Chicago were the same year, two of the most iconic dance shows of all time duking it out. I mean, that's that's that's pretty interesting to me.

[24:33] Dan Tracy: Yeah, for sure. The original production, as we were just mentioning, the reviews were mixed. People weren't really sure what to make of it. It turns out not to be the hit production that the current revival is. It runs for under a thousand performances. The audiences at the time were not a huge fan of this Brechtian style where they're breaking the fourth wall and using the elements of concept musical and elements of vaudeville to tell the story. It just didn't really work for people at the time. We weren't as attuned with the exploitation of the American celebrity as we are now. I think like watching the movie now, that resonates so much because we are so familiar with all of these people who commit crimes and are then touted as celebrities or villains, and they still have this lore about them. You know, you think of people like Jeffrey Epstein and stuff. It's kind of crazy.

[25:30] Dan Tracy: Totally. The original production was nominated for ten Tonys and did not win any, which may have been actually on that list, Joe, for that game show we played, wasn't it?

[25:40] Joe Carroll: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Most like most shows nominated for the most.

[25:46] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Most nominations and zero wins.

[25:53] Joe Carroll: Yeah. We played trivia this week with the guys from Broadway Talk Live and their game show called MT Trivia. It was super fun. You can find it on YouTube or Facebook if you go to visit Broadway Talk Live dot com. It was live streamed on YouTube, so I'm sure you can find us singing poorly. The Revival, on the other hand, won six Tony Awards, and that is was more than any other Broadway revival in history. And it is the longest running Broadway revival of all time still to this day. And they were unseated with their Tony wins by South Pacific in 2008.

[26:31] Dan Tracy: The yeah, the show was very well received. The New York Daily News said Chicago impressed me far more than the original and L.O.L. that that guy saw both. And Ben Brantley said make love to the audience was another Fosse dictum. That's exactly what Miss Rankine and her ensemble do. Chicago can still glibly can still seem glibly cynical and artificially cold, especially in its week or second act. But these performers know just how to take off the chill. Boy, isn't that Ben Brantley great with words? What a wordsmith.

[27:06] Joe Carroll: That's that's a little.

[27:09] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[27:09] Joe Carroll: Rest in power, Ben Brantley, in the second act of your life.

[27:13] Dan Tracy: Yeah. People are going to be people in musical theater college are going to be reading his book the way that we all read Frank Rich's book. You know, he's going to write a book about like, you know, stuff that one. But these performers know just how to take off the chill. Yikes.

[27:28] Joe Carroll: Yikes. They Chicago won the Chicago Revival, won the Tony Award for Best Revival of a Musical, Best Leading Actress in a Musical for B.B. Neuwirth, Best Leading Actor in a Musical for James Naughton, who played Billy Flynn, Best Lighting Design, Best Director for Walter Bobby and Best Choreographer for Ann Reinking. Walter Bobby is also known for directing White Christmas, Bright Star. He also had a career as a performer. He's a B.R.S. guy. He was we have the same agent. He's been there for a long time. I don't know if he acts anymore, but he's obviously still around and still directing and still in the business.

[28:08] Dan Tracy: Historical context for the theatrical community at the time, the original obviously opened, as we've said, in the same year as Michael Bennett's highly successful Chorus Line, which beat Chicago for ticket sales and Tony Awards. And basically, this is that thing that we keep coming up against where some show kind of meets its match and a show that maybe could have taken Tony Awards in another season kind of falls to the wayside for another show that has done better. And that's that, you know?

[28:41] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Should we talk about the film a little bit?

[28:41] Dan Tracy: Yeah, please.

[28:46] Dan Tracy: $306 million worldwide, which made it the single most successful movie that never was number one or number two in the box office.

[28:55] Joe Carroll: Interesting fact. It never was like the top movie of the week.

[29:00] Dan Tracy: We should all be making movies. Why aren't we making movies? Should we just be... $300 million?

[29:04] Joe Carroll: Like, I mean, I know it costs... I don't know what the budget was.

[29:08] Dan Tracy: $25 million, I think.

[29:10] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I mean, that's obviously a lot, but like, let's just... Yeah, I want $250 million in profit. That's how that works, right?

[29:18] Dan Tracy: Dear God, Joe loves money. I'm just kidding.

[29:21] Joe Carroll: On Rotten Tomatoes, the film has an 86% approval rating based on 256 reviews with an average rating of 7.96 out of 10.

[29:32] Dan Tracy: I give it a 9 out of 10, 10 out of 10. It is such a freaking good movie.

[29:36] Joe Carroll: It was nominated for 13 Academy Awards. It won six. It won Best Picture, Best Supporting Actress, Catherine Zeta-Jones, who has a super interesting career that I was reading about yesterday.

[29:48] Dan Tracy: Best Art Direction, which cannot go unmentioned how well this movie is art directed, how beautiful the sets are, how it's all integrated, how the world of Chicago in that time is so iconic in this film.

[30:03] Joe Carroll: They won for Best Costume Design, Best Film Editing, which is another one that cannot go unnoticed, and Best Sound.

[30:10] Dan Tracy: The movie... I was going to get into this when we talk about Cell Block Tango, but they did so many cool things where they changed the frame rate.

[30:20] Joe Carroll: Here he goes. Let him nerd out. Ladies and gentlemen, if you'd like to go get a cup of coffee while Dan talks about frame rate, go ahead.

[30:27] Dan Tracy: Dan's going to talk about frame rate. Go ahead, Dan.

[30:30] Joe Carroll: Joe just wants to make the money part of films. He doesn't want to learn about films.

[30:33] Dan Tracy: I'm just kidding, man. I love when you get nerdy about this shit. Go ahead. Go ahead. Talk about your frame rate. Talk about your camera moves.

[30:40] Dan Tracy: Obviously, I'm watching Cell Block Tango, and I think they may have done the opposite in Razzle Dazzle, where they used more frames per second.

[30:48] Joe Carroll: When you use more frames per second, it gives you this fluidity because you're seeing more pictures in each span of a second.

[30:55] Dan Tracy: But if you cut the frame rate, you have that kind of choppy... It almost looks sped up, but it's not.

[31:03] Joe Carroll: That's what they did with Cell Block Tango and with some other punchier numbers in this.

[31:07] Dan Tracy: It's the technique they used in all of those fight scenes in the Sherlock Holmes movies, where they shoot it at 22 frames a second.

[31:14] Joe Carroll: Suddenly, it makes the action look like it's moving faster than it is because they have fewer pictures.

[31:19] Dan Tracy: I always think that's super cool. That's what Charlie Chaplin was known for, shooting those movies at 15 frames a second, which wasn't as far off.

[31:29] Joe Carroll: I think at that time, we were only using 18 frames a second.

[31:32] Dan Tracy: When you think about it that way, the people were used to seeing 18. They cut it down by three.

[31:36] Joe Carroll: People are used to now seeing 24, and they cut it down by two.

[31:40] Dan Tracy: It's a comparable kind of shift.

[31:43] Joe Carroll: I don't know anything, but it sounds like that is why some of those shots feel so old-timey.

[31:49] Dan Tracy: Why that vaudeville style in a lot of those numbers works so well, maybe?

[31:53] Joe Carroll: Yeah, for sure. That's totally part of it.

[31:56] Dan Tracy: The way that you said that Charlie Chaplin was doing that, it has kind of a silent movie style at times.

[32:03] Joe Carroll: I'm going to get to this at the end, but they both reach for the gun, the ventriloquist sequence, which feels of another era, for sure.

[32:17] Dan Tracy: Absolutely. And as Joe said, this was Rob Marshall's big screen debut.

[32:22] Joe Carroll: He then went on to work on Memoirs of a Geisha, Mary Poppins Returns, the Into the Woods film that we were speaking about, question mark, last week.

[32:34] Dan Tracy: Tyler, we did Into the Woods last week, and we just kind of skipped over the Rob Marshall version.

[32:38] Joe Carroll: Just like, go watch Bernadette and period.

[32:42] Dan Tracy: Did he do it through the lens of the witch? Did he use the same?

[32:46] Joe Carroll: I wish. No, he did it through the lens of a Disney executive, and he made a few mistakes, I'd say.

[32:53] Dan Tracy: He also worked on nine... Pirates of the Caribbean?

[32:57] Joe Carroll: Yeah, the last one.

[33:01] Dan Tracy: Okay.

[33:02] Joe Carroll: The ones that nobody saw, but I didn't realize this, the Cinderella with Brandy and Whitney Houston.

[33:08] Dan Tracy: Yeah, who knew?

[33:09] Joe Carroll: Which is absolutely the most iconic Cinderella of all time.

[33:13] Dan Tracy: Definitely.

[33:14] Joe Carroll: He also did that Annie remake with Kathy Bates.

[33:19] Dan Tracy: Yes.

[33:20] Joe Carroll: Because I think that's what helped get him a meeting with producers for this.

[33:26] Dan Tracy: Because that must have... Was that a major TV movie?

[33:30] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[33:31] Dan Tracy: Technically.

[33:32] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[33:35] Dan Tracy: Right, I remember.

[33:36] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it was like the Wonderful World of Disney.

[33:38] Dan Tracy: Right, right.

[33:39] Joe Carroll: Yeah, look at this cast. I'm just looking this up, bro. Kathy Bates, Victor Garber, Alan Cumming, Audra McDonald.

[33:44] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[33:45] Joe Carroll: Yikes, what a cast.

[33:46] Dan Tracy: I think I remember watching the debut of that.

[33:49] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I remember those Sunday night Disney movies that they used to do.

[33:53] Dan Tracy: Those were so good.

[33:54] Joe Carroll: Oh my gosh, and Kristen Chenoweth as Hannigan?

[33:56] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[33:57] Joe Carroll: Good lord. Maybe we need to watch that.

[34:00] Dan Tracy: Seriously.

[34:01] Joe Carroll: Development of the show, so we're kind of working backwards here.

[34:06] Dan Tracy: Chicago the Movie is based on a play that was written by a woman named Maureen Dallas Watkins, who was a reporter in Chicago.

[34:13] Joe Carroll: And these characters are real people.

[34:16] Dan Tracy: And the stories that she was really covering, and they've been adapted multiple times.

[34:22] Joe Carroll: Cecil B. DeMille made a silent film called Chicago in 1927, starring Max Sennett.

[34:28] Dan Tracy: And it was later remade by Ginger Rogers as a film called Roxy Heart in 1942.

[34:37] Joe Carroll: In that version, Roxy was accused of a murder she didn't actually commit.

[34:40] Dan Tracy: And then in the 1960s, Gwen Verdon read the play and asked her husband, Bob Fosse, if he would be interested in creating a musical adaptation.

[34:50] Joe Carroll: And Fosse went down and tried to get the rights from Maureen Watkins and couldn't get them.

[34:58] Dan Tracy: And Maureen kept declining, and it wasn't until she passed away that her estate gave the rights over to Bob Fosse and they were able to make the movie.

[35:06] Joe Carroll: I thought that was one of the coolest moments in Fosse-Verdon, the way they handled the creation of Chicago.

[35:17] Dan Tracy: It's obviously something that is probably, John Kander and Fred Ebb and Bob Fosse, one of the things they're known most for.

[35:26] Joe Carroll: So you're kind of waiting in this great TV series, which if you haven't seen it, we talked about it last year when it came out.

[35:31] Dan Tracy: But if you haven't seen it, go back and watch that.

[35:33] Joe Carroll: I loved how they handled this because we're waiting for Chicago.

[35:36] Dan Tracy: We're waiting for this plot point of how is Chicago going to come about, and Gwen's going to do it, and what's in ranking, and all this stuff.

[35:44] Joe Carroll: I just thought that was excellent.

[35:45] Dan Tracy: I think the part of that too with Chicago for me was I didn't know.

[35:50] Joe Carroll: I mean, obviously Fosse-Verdon really, really showed their relationship and Gwen's influence on his career.

[35:57] Dan Tracy: But the fact that she doesn't really get much credit for the creation of Chicago, and that was really – she was driving that.

[36:05] Joe Carroll: She was the one.

[36:06] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[36:07] Joe Carroll: She read the play.

[36:08] Dan Tracy: She wanted to do it.

[36:10] Joe Carroll: She was really driving it and pushing it, and she had to fight for a lot of things too.

[36:15] Dan Tracy: It was later on her career, so there was that aspect of it.

[36:20] Joe Carroll: Right.

[36:22] Dan Tracy: It was fascinating.

[36:23] Joe Carroll: That whole side of it, the part where she got sick or she had to have vocal surgery.

[36:30] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[36:32] Joe Carroll: And that was stunt casting right there, but they didn't even announce it.

[36:39] Dan Tracy: They just had her come in, and then all of a sudden they had the critics come back and re-review it, and then the show got better reviews.

[36:45] Joe Carroll: And that's when it started picking up making more money and stuff like that.

[36:50] Dan Tracy: But yeah, it covered that in the show.

[36:55] Joe Carroll: The story is that she got a feather stuck in her throat, and it gave her nodules.

[37:02] Dan Tracy: Oh, God.

[37:03] Joe Carroll: So I don't know what happened.

[37:05] Dan Tracy: It got stuck in some place where she couldn't get it out, and then maybe she was singing through it.

[37:09] Joe Carroll: Is that true?

[37:11] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[37:12] Joe Carroll: Wow.

[37:13] Dan Tracy: That's insane.

[37:14] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[37:15] Dan Tracy: I mean, I don't know.

[37:18] Joe Carroll: Because I'm just picturing a feather.

[37:21] Dan Tracy: Because I think it was something like a confetti can or something.

[37:24] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[37:25] Dan Tracy: It's something about the finale of the show.

[37:27] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[37:28] Dan Tracy: And so she had to get emergency nodule surgery on her vocal cords, and they didn't know what to do.

[37:33] Joe Carroll: They thought the show was going to close, and they got Liza to come in.

[37:35] Dan Tracy: Man.

[37:36] Joe Carroll: Crazy.

[37:37] Dan Tracy: Picked up.

[37:38] Joe Carroll: Right.

[37:39] Dan Tracy: Wild.

[37:40] Joe Carroll: Should we talk about some iconic casting, speaking of Liza?

[37:42] Dan Tracy: Totally.

[37:43] Joe Carroll: The casting in the revival is kind of crazy.

[37:48] Dan Tracy: And I mean, we were looking up some of these names, and I actually talked to...

[37:53] Joe Carroll: Last week, we had Benton Whiteleon talking about Into the Woods, and I actually talked to him about this in an audition, about the casting of Chicago.

[37:59] Dan Tracy: One of the reasons that it has lasted so long is this stunt casting, quote, stunt casting thing, where they get celebrities to come in and play Thelma or Roxy or Billie or whatever.

[38:11] Joe Carroll: And it's this debatable thing that some people love it, some people hate it, but people want to see their favorite people in Broadway shows.

[38:22] Dan Tracy: And we could do a whole...

[38:23] Joe Carroll: I don't want to sidetrack too much, but basically, a quick Wikipedia, the casting in the revival, Brandy, Usher, Chris Sieber, Charlotte D'Amboise, Cuba Gooding Jr., Michael C. Hall, Roz Ryan, Jerry Springer, Brooke Shields, NeNe Leakes, Deborah Monk, Patrick Swayze, Rita Wilson, Alan Thicke, Melanie Griffith, Taye Diggs, Carol Woods, Chandra Wilson, Christine Petty, Ashley Simpson, Adam Pascal, Amy Spanger.

[38:52] Dan Tracy: Tony Yazbek, Todrick Hall.

[38:54] Joe Carroll: I mean...

[38:55] Dan Tracy: Wendy Williams.

[38:56] Joe Carroll: Wendy Williams.

[38:57] Dan Tracy: Christy Brinkley.

[38:58] Joe Carroll: The Heisman winner, Eddie George.

[39:02] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[39:03] Joe Carroll: Like, it's on and on and on.

[39:05] Dan Tracy: And it's one of these things that, like, you know, the good of it is it brings a new audience to the theater.

[39:12] Joe Carroll: You know, people who might not go see Chicago but are fans of Eddie George are going to go see Chicago.

[39:17] Dan Tracy: So that's the good of it.

[39:19] Joe Carroll: That's the good of it.

[39:20] Dan Tracy: And then there's a bunch of bad, too.

[39:22] Joe Carroll: And I'm also, just to say, that in the scheme of stunt casting, to me, stunt casting Chicago, which is thematically about the allure of celebrity, is way more acceptable than stunt casting Hadestown or even something like Wicked.

[39:44] Dan Tracy: Like, having a celebrity come in to play a role like Velma Kelly totally makes sense.

[39:49] Joe Carroll: 100%.

[39:50] Dan Tracy: Because that's what the story is.

[39:51] Joe Carroll: Dan, that is an excellent point.

[39:52] Dan Tracy: That is an excellent point.

[39:53] Joe Carroll: So not to defend the Weisslers for their choices to pad their wallets, but, you know, it does make sense thematically in this show.

[40:03] Dan Tracy: So I give them the benefit of the doubt there.

[40:05] Joe Carroll: Totally.

[40:06] Dan Tracy: I also love seeing Chita Rivera in the movie.

[40:09] Joe Carroll: When I first obviously was watching these movies, I had no idea who Chita Rivera is.

[40:12] Dan Tracy: But she has that one little scene with Latifa.

[40:16] Joe Carroll: Yeah, exactly.

[40:18] Dan Tracy: Which is just like such a nice little nod of the hat to the OGs.

[40:22] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[40:23] Dan Tracy: John C. Reilly also is amazing in that movie.

[40:26] Joe Carroll: He's so good in the movie.

[40:27] Dan Tracy: I mean, it's just like it's kind of for me, that's like he's the top of the mountain with Mr.

[40:34] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Mr.

[40:35] Dan Tracy: Cellophane's like.

[40:36] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[40:37] Dan Tracy: I mean, so heartbreaking when he finally gets to the stand and Billy calls him Amos for the first time.

[40:43] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[40:44] Dan Tracy: Face lights up.

[40:45] Joe Carroll: He's like, yeah, my name is Amos.

[40:47] Dan Tracy: It's not.

[40:49] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[40:50] Dan Tracy: And then, I mean, you talked about a lot of the casting of the original more movie casting.

[40:53] Joe Carroll: I thought was interesting.

[40:54] Dan Tracy: Deirdre Goodwin played June.

[40:55] Joe Carroll: She's done 10 Broadway shows.

[40:57] Dan Tracy: Did you guys do the revival together of A Chorus Line?

[41:00] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[41:01] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[41:02] Joe Carroll: She was Sheila.

[41:04] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[41:05] Joe Carroll: It's got Marianne Lamb, Desmond Richardson, Sean Palmer, Scott Fowler.

[41:11] Dan Tracy: I mean, it's just like that's how for me when I because I was in college when they were filming it.

[41:15] Joe Carroll: And so a good friend of mine from the Fosse tour, Jennifer Civelli, was in the movie.

[41:20] Dan Tracy: And so she would be telling me stuff like we were keeping in touch for the whole time and seeing the film.

[41:26] Joe Carroll: And now, you know, knowing more of the community.

[41:29] Dan Tracy: But when I saw it, I just moved to New York.

[41:31] Joe Carroll: I just made my debut.

[41:33] Dan Tracy: And so the cast, we all went and saw the movie.

[41:36] Joe Carroll: And it's no, it's jam packed with a lot of people.

[41:40] Dan Tracy: It's I mean, as far as like but even even the cell block girls, you know, you got Susie Meisner, who was Liz, who that's the leg.

[41:49] Joe Carroll: And she's on like the American.

[41:51] Dan Tracy: She's a Broadway girl.

[41:52] Joe Carroll: She actually ended up. She's done 10 million. She's on everything.

[41:55] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[41:56] Joe Carroll: She did that. She did a lot of the choreography for Fosse Bird.

[42:01] Dan Tracy: Oh, wow.

[42:02] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[42:03] Dan Tracy: And she played like, you know, his first wife.

[42:05] Joe Carroll: But no, there's a there's you know, they padded that.

[42:08] Dan Tracy: I mean, for some of the people you have to look, but they're in there.

[42:12] Joe Carroll: Yeah, that's really great.

[42:13] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[42:14] Joe Carroll: Because I was I was looking up. There's a lot of like it seemed like a lot of L.A., you know, a lot a lot of a lot of people that I didn't recognize.

[42:21] Dan Tracy: But that that sounds that's amazing.

[42:23] Joe Carroll: Did you guys know? Did you read who they wanted, who he wanted for Billy Flynn originally?

[42:28] Dan Tracy: No, no, no.

[42:29] Joe Carroll: Michael Jackson.

[42:31] Dan Tracy: Whoa.

[42:33] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[42:34] Dan Tracy: Like in the Harvey Harvey Weinstein.

[42:36] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[42:37] Dan Tracy: Going to like take too much focus away from Renee Zellweger and Catherine Zeta-Jones.

[42:43] Joe Carroll: But like Michael as Billy Flynn.

[42:46] Dan Tracy: I mean, it's interesting.

[42:48] Joe Carroll: I want to like on a deep dive of who originally because they were going to make this film with the original show.

[42:54] Dan Tracy: They were going to make it a movie.

[42:55] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[42:56] Dan Tracy: It was going to be like Bob was going to direct it.

[42:58] Joe Carroll: And it was going to be Goldie Hawn, Liza Minnelli and Frank Sinatra.

[43:03] Dan Tracy: Wow.

[43:08] Tyler Hanes: Making it, I mean like Madonna was being considered. Charlize Theron was originally cast as Roxy when they had the first director. And then when Rob Marshall came on board, she had to audition again and Renée Zellweger got it. But Kathy Bates was supposed to be Mama Morton, but she didn't drop out because of About Schmidt. John Travolta passed on what's called Billy Flynn, Keanu Reeves for Amos. The list of people that were being considered, crazy. Britney Spears was supposed to be Go to Hell Kitty. There were a lot of people they were looking at. That's crazy. Yeah, Lucy Liu's another one, just insane, like so good.

[43:58] Dan Tracy: Oh, yeah. Talk about an entrance.

[44:00] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, seriously. Oh, my God. I was like, this woman is a star. Holy crap.

[44:05] Dan Tracy: Right. That is crazy. I hadn't known all of that history that I love that kind of who's the third choice is the person who gets it. Oh, and also mentioned that last week, Catherine Zeta-Jones, she was offered Roxy first. And she didn't know the show because the producer like heard her singing at like a holiday party or something. And so he offered her Roxy and she didn't know the show, but she knew "All That Jazz." And that's why she took Velma. She was like, I want to sing that song.

[44:36] Tyler Hanes: Wow. I can't even see her as Roxy. She's like, she hits so hard as Velma in this movie. Like, yeah, I mean, say what you will about the little night music revival. But like that, she that was a tough night for her. She hits in this movie like it's she's unbelievable. She's on the frickin leaveable when she comes out. I mean, we'll get where I think we're about to this, you know, where we just we'll nerd out about our I do want to get to some dream castings. But when she comes ripping out during "So Long, Dearie," it is like that she is hit. She it hits in that Bob haircut. I mean, she just like just like, yeah, I think I think she would have loved to go back to the Little Night Music Tony Award performance and, you know, do things a little differently. But you will never unseat her from the throne of this movie. She just is so frickin good.

[45:32] Dan Tracy: Yeah, it's so good. What let's do some dream casting real quick. If there's anybody that you could, you know, I mean, so many people have played these roles, you know, and I think it's such a star vehicle for especially for these women that, you know, the first one that popped into my mind was to see someone like Zoe Saldana play Velma because she has the dance background. Lest you forget, Center Stage, which is one of my all-time favorite bad movies, you know, like Good Call, the dance sequences and that are second to none. But like somebody like that, I think would be amazing.

[46:07] Tyler Hanes: I want to see did Taye Diggs play Billy Flynn?

[46:14] Dan Tracy: Yeah, he did. Okay. Okay. Because seeing him in the movie, I was like, I was like, OK, well, that's a no brainer because I also saw I just saw him on a guest star. Alex and I are watching New Girl right now before bed to just like try to stay happy. We're just like sad all the time. So we're like, well, that's a funny comedy we watch before bed. And he has a great guest star as like he has a great guest star in that that we just saw. That's so funny. I was going to say I would love to see Jake Johnson as Amos.

[46:42] Tyler Hanes: Oh, oh, Jake Johnson from or like a Mark Duplass, like one of those like doofy kind of everyman guys would be really great. What do you think, Tyler? Who would you who would you put in there?

[46:52] Tyler Hanes: I don't know, because I was saying I was thinking about this and I kind of it's interesting because like I would want to switch up some of the genders like I would see someone like Glenn Close or Patti LuPone as Billy Flynn.

[47:08] Dan Tracy: Oh, that would be that would be so I would want to see or like or Regina King. I want to but I want to see Regina King do like Roxy, though, like, yeah, like people that are or Amber Gray. Yeah. Like there are certain people that I want to just see that on them because they're like the obvious choice of like, oh, well, this will work for that. But I want to see like what just me as a fan of their acting. Let's see Amber Gray do Roxy because it's the complete opposite of Hadestown or like right here or I don't know, like, oh, God, Adrienne Warren. Yeah, she could do it.

[47:47] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. Just switch off roles every two weeks. Exactly. Like Roxy, Velma and Mama Morton.

[47:53] Dan Tracy: Right. Right. Like, right. I want to hear her, Mama, if you're good to Mama and and also what's the the the number that just floors me and is every every time is when Velma does "I Can't Do It Alone." I mean, it's such a star turn. So like to see like I just want like the Adrienne Warren, like one woman show in Chicago, I think. I mean, I kind of the thing with Chicago that I would like to see is if it was just all women like, yeah, right. We need the guys there. I mean, you do, but you don't like especially like the male ensemble like it. Sorry, I'm not coming for the male ensemble at all because they're great. I would just like to see like a full female production of it where and it's not, you know, like just gender bent some things.

[48:39] Tyler Hanes: And yeah, well, totally. And even like Emma Thompson with her late night haircut with like the, you know, like as Billy Flynn, I think that could be, you know, coming downstage in a tuxedo like, yeah, I'm in for I'm in for that. For sure. I just refell in love with Sharon Stone watching Ratched and she would be great as Billy Flynn too actually.

[48:59] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Should we talk about some music? Joe's favorite part.

[49:02] Joe Carroll: Let's do it. This is my favorite part. So first steps first, we do the goosebump test, which is just, you know, whatever gives you goosebumps every single time. Listen to it. Mine is the speed up out of the overture.

[49:14] Joe Carroll: Into all that jazz.

[49:38] Dan Tracy: That just every—oh, it hits. I actually remember it with the choreography too, where the whole ensemble runs out and you throw your hands in the air and then you melt slowly, right?

[49:52] Tyler Hanes: That's what happens. Yeah. Dan was just about to launch into the opening, opening number of choreography and—

[49:56] Dan Tracy: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good stuff.

[50:01] Joe Carroll: Thumbs up. So good. So good.

[50:07] Dan Tracy: Yeah, that's why we didn't have an elevator. So it wasn't as—

[50:19] Joe Carroll: It wasn't as we did. So, yeah, we're a drummer.

[51:18] Tyler Hanes: All of those twists and turns. Yeah. All of the twists and turns of that overture. And that's a pretty good section, actually, going into all that jazz show. I think we have almost the same exact answer. You got one, Tyler?

[51:31] Tyler Hanes: Mine's always going to be cell block, but it's the moment. And this is why the film captured it so well, too, because it's after the dirty bum bum bum. And then they're like coming down. OK. And then there's Gigi Goodwin, like kicking her face. And then, yeah, if you were a dad, I would end it up. How could you tell me that I was wrong?

[52:15] Joe Carroll: And the lighting and the choreography where they just go, it's—I love the trailer. It's something that I like out to. It's something I wish like I have like fantasies of me doing that. Like, yes, it's just it's everything, like all elements came together in that one moment, and I remember seeing it in the theater, and I just was like it just made me like want to jump out of my skin because it just was so powerful. And then the choreography to the end, that whole number, even in the show, it's so it's so brilliant. You've got this lack of women, these like strong, flawed women that are like just it's it's so even just them walking. Sorry, the whole number. Yes, I think this I apologize. But like them even walking into the overhead light, all saying their monologues really quickly into their seats. And then it's just so that number is so perfectly built and it's perfect age and in the movie and just that one moment, though, in the movie and the music that that gives me chills.

[53:40] Dan Tracy: Yeah, it's peak Fosse. That is like peak Fosse. Let's show athleticism strength like it is the definition of fierce before that word was used for everything. It's like I said here, it was like the OG WAP, you know, just like there is no Cardi B without cell block tango. So that's that.

[54:01] Joe Carroll: Yeah, we the next section is favorite production numbers. And I think that I talked about that. I was going to say cell block. And I talked about that framing style of the 22 frames a second. It just really helped to bring that all together. I also love razzle dazzle in this version on the on the steps. I guess I read that the original staging Fosse wanted it to be an orgy on the steps of the courthouse. And Jerry Orbach talked him out of it and said, that's just not it's not going to give you what you want. And then mine, my favorite production number. I mean, obviously, cell block is perfect. I love the theatrical device and just the execution of they both reach for the gun, the ventriloquist number Billy Flynn in the press conference rag. Notice how his mouth never moves. Almost.

[54:48] ♪ Musical number ♪

[55:09] Joe Carroll: The way that, you know, this guy is just completely manipulating the press and the situation. Welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals. Welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals. Tyler's here. Tyler Hanes is in the house and we are talking about Chicago.

[55:28] Dan Tracy: An actor is saying his lines and then out of nowhere, he just starts singing.

[55:33] ♪ Musical number ♪

[55:55] Joe Carroll: Tyler, how are you? What's what's going on? Thank you for coming and talking to us.

[55:59] Tyler Hanes: I don't know. Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure. I'm good. I'm good. I'm just, you know, another day in pandemic life and and yeah, in the city and talking with you guys.

[56:09] Dan Tracy: Yeah. So it's good to good to nerd out about musicals when there's not a lot of musical stuff to look forward to.

[56:13] Joe Carroll: That's right. You know, and this week we're talking about Chicago because we love it because it's musical theater history and it's iconic, but also because that you can watch it. We're trying to highlight shows these days that you can actually see. And so we'll talk about the the Academy Award winning Best Picture, Rob Marshall directed version of Chicago, and we'll talk about the Broadway version of Chicago and Tyler's Broadway versions, both Broadway versions and the West End and the tours.

[56:42] Dan Tracy: Yeah. And the 2012 University of Michigan production of Chicago where Dan and Joe wore their mesh tops and danced in the chorus. Absolute classic.

[56:54] Joe Carroll: Oh, man, we tried so hard. We we really. I don't know how I get cast in that, but we'll we'll talk about that in a second. You can watch Chicago, the musical, the Rob Marshall film on Showtime, or you can rent it on Amazon Prime for three ninety nine. It slaps everyone.

[57:13] Tyler Hanes: Yep. It is. I think what Tyler and I were messaging about this, it is perhaps the best movie musical of all time. I will stand by that. Definitely the best modern movie musical of all time. And it started arguably that kind of revolution. It was like that Moulin Rouge.

[57:31] Joe Carroll: And then all of a sudden, all of these things were being made into musicals.

[57:34] Dan Tracy: Then you have Music Man and you have now the modern era where we're seeing all the remakes of all the old Disney movies and stuff.

[57:40] Joe Carroll: Totally. So as we get into this, we need to nerd out about Tyler's career real quick because you have an unbelievable resume.

[57:47] Dan Tracy: And so we'll just we're going to rip through this and make you feel uncomfortable for a second.

[57:51] Joe Carroll: But Tyler graduated from Carnegie Mellon, made his Broadway debut in Oklahoma, correct?

[57:57] Tyler Hanes: Yes. Yes. And I didn't graduate from Carnegie Mellon. I'm a Carnegie Mellon dropout.

[58:00] Dan Tracy: He went to Carnegie Mellon and then booked his Broadway debut while he was there, Joe.

[58:04] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Yeah. Iconic. Iconic. The things that we wanted to do. We wanted to not graduate from Michigan.

[58:10] Dan Tracy: That's like that's like the that's like the Steve Jobs version of musical theater.

[58:14] Joe Carroll: Right. Like to draw like, you know, you drop out of college to go be on Broadway.

[58:18] Tyler Hanes: There's like a there's like a list of Taylor Louderman, Aaron Tveit, Tyler Hanger.

[58:25] Joe Carroll: They're much fancier. But no, I mean, it definitely like it.

[58:31] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, I was there for a year and then got a show and I kind of was sneaking away and auditioning.

[58:35] Joe Carroll: But you're not supposed to. But I jumped on that bus.

[58:38] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. And you're there to work, you know, like, you know, we all want to work.

[58:42] Joe Carroll: And then Broadway companies of Urban Cowboy, Boy From Oz, The Frogs, which I've never heard of.

[58:48] Tyler Hanes: Not a lot of people have or saw it.

[58:51] Joe Carroll: But you know what? Hey, listen, a Broadway credits, a Broadway credit.

[58:55] Tyler Hanes: Sweet Charity, A Chorus Line, Hairspray, On the Town and most recently Rum Tum Tugger in the Broadway revival of Cats.

[59:04] Joe Carroll: A whole bunch of other cool stuff. Off-Broadway musical Juno, which I love.

[59:11] Tyler Hanes: And this is very cool. Recurred as Jerry Orbach in the Fosse Verden show on FX.

[59:17] Joe Carroll: Jerry Orbach was, as we get into, the original Billy Flynn in Chicago.

[59:24] Dan Tracy: This is great. This is where this is. This is fantastic.

[59:28] Joe Carroll: Yeah. So notably, like you haven't been in Chicago, but Chicago's your favorite musical.

[59:34] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. So my history, kind of like backing it up with Chicago was when I was in high school, I saw like the first national tour with Charlotte Noir and Jasmine Guy.

[59:45] Tyler Hanes: And I'm from Atlanta. So and Charlotte wasn't on, her understudy, Belle Calloway was on and she was amazing.

[59:54] Tyler Hanes: But I didn't really like I really liked the show when I saw it and I thought it was like, you know, sexy. And I like the story, but it wasn't until that summer I went and Graham King used to have this. It's still around. It's called Broadway Theater Project. But I went to that program and this is in like 98.

[1:00:13] Tyler Hanes: And we did, you know, she we did like Razzle Dazzle. She said that. But she I remember one day it was like it was like it was a three week thing. And all of a sudden one day she was like doing a Q&A. And I don't know where she just went to the Roxy monologue and just did it.

[1:00:30] Tyler Hanes: So good. But it was like like out of nowhere. You want to know something and then just like stop. Everyone was like she just like drew you in and like tears and stillness and everything. And it blew my mind. It blew my mind.

[1:00:45] Tyler Hanes: And Mary Lou Henner, I think, was playing Roxy at that point on Broadway because she came down and talked to us during that week.

[1:00:54] Tyler Hanes: And then I went to that following January with my high school. We went like on a trip. And so I saw Chicago again.

[1:01:03] Tyler Hanes: But it was Bebe Neuwirth came back into the show as Velma. And this time we were on like the second row.

[1:01:09] Tyler Hanes: And it was the closest I'd ever been to the stage watching something like that. And I swear, just like her entrance up that elevator doing that Porter Braw, like that for me was so it was just everything.

[1:01:23] Tyler Hanes: Like it just it was that's where I feel like things change for me as a person, because that's when I was like, I want to do that. And I want to do this. And then I like bought a bunch of the merch that night and like, you know, just geeked out.

[1:01:39] Tyler Hanes: And then from that point on, I kind of just I think I've seen this show more than any show. I love it. I've never done it. But the full circle moment was the Fosse-Verdon like, you know.

[1:01:54] Joe Carroll: Because you did the Fosse National Tour, too, right?

[1:01:57] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. Yeah. Which was like an early job for you right out of high school.

[1:02:00] Tyler Hanes: So summer after my senior year, I went back to Broadway Theatre Project, worked with Ann again and worked with Gwen Verdon this time because she she was visiting.

[1:02:12] Tyler Hanes: It was it was crazy because it was like working with the three of them. And then Ben Green came down, too. And so it was just like, you know, they set like a bunch of different numbers on us for the showcase. And during that time, they asked me to join the first national tour of Fosse.

[1:02:28] Tyler Hanes: Offers only. Goals. It was pretty cool. Like, I'm not going to lie. But yeah.

[1:02:35] Tyler Hanes: So then I went on the road for a year with that show. I was too young to be in that show. I was like 17, like had a bowl cut and everything and like, just like.

[1:02:47] Joe Carroll: Now, how much of Chicago did they do in Fosse? Because I haven't seen Fosse.

[1:02:51] Tyler Hanes: You can actually watch that, too. There's a recording of that. Yeah.

[1:02:54] Joe Carroll: How much how much how much Chicago was in it?

[1:02:56] Tyler Hanes: They did, I think, only three numbers. There's Hot Honey Rag. There's Nowadays in the Hot Honey Rag and then Razzle Dazzle.

[1:03:03] Joe Carroll: Got it. That's it.

[1:03:05] Tyler Hanes: No, all that jazz. Like they wouldn't do all that jazz.

[1:03:08] Joe Carroll: No, but the thing what's interesting is if you watch Fosse Burden, there's two episodes that are Chicago was like the theme in it. And they did. They learned the original All That Jazz, which is not that similar to the one that everybody knows now.

[1:03:25] Tyler Hanes: So that was pretty cool. Like just watching. I wasn't in that number, but watching how different his take on it was than what Anne Rankings was.

[1:03:34] Tyler Hanes: She choreographed. I think like I think I'm almost positive that Nowadays Hot Honey Rag is the same in the revival as his original choreography. But she did everything just in the style of.

[1:03:47] Joe Carroll: I think we learned Anne Rankings All That Jazz is the one that we did at at Michigan together, which was our audition, which was a very funny day in the life of 21 and 22 year old Joe and Dan.

[1:04:01] Dan Tracy: I'm just trying. We just had like we were just like we want it. We want to be able to dance in ensembles and we want to work.

[1:04:10] Joe Carroll: We want to be in Broadway shows to be in Broadway shows. You have to know Fosse choreography, man.

[1:04:14] Tyler Hanes: We tried and man, did we look silly, especially.

[1:04:18] Joe Carroll: Well, because I think the thing with with Fosse, too, and Tyler, you can speak to this more than I can. But like it, it looks so pedestrian, it looks so easy and it is so unbelievably difficult.

[1:04:28] Tyler Hanes: Like when you actually I think that's kind of part of the magic of it.

[1:04:31] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, I would agree. I think it's also something that it's the older it gets better with age.

[1:04:37] Tyler Hanes: Like, yeah, I know when I was doing Fosse on the road and like I said, I was 17 and I was dancing so hard and too much and I was too big.

[1:04:49] Tyler Hanes: And they were just like, like, reel it in, bro. Like because it just wasn't I was in a totally different show. But I was also I just didn't really understand the I mean, I understood the vocabulary and whatnot and the world. But I wasn't mature enough, I guess.

[1:05:07] Tyler Hanes: Right. Something I feel like as I get older and I keep coming back to it, I learn something new about it or it sits a little better and understand the subtleties of it. But yeah, it's definitely it looks a lot easier than it is.

[1:05:21] Joe Carroll: But that's why it's so good.

[1:05:23] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, it looks like it doesn't require any technique, but trying to do it, you realize that you can only do it with technique.

[1:05:30] Joe Carroll: Like it's just one of those.

[1:05:31] Tyler Hanes: It can only and it looks so bad. Like people do it. It can look so bad.

[1:05:35] Joe Carroll: Case in point, Dan and Joe. But that's I love that we're just like ragging ourselves.

[1:05:42] Dan Tracy: Yeah, but that's I mean, I think, Dan, that's that's I don't know if you have an earlier memory of the show, but I saw the movie with my mom in theaters.

[1:05:50] Joe Carroll: She took me to all those movies. So I remember seeing it.

[1:05:53] Dan Tracy: I remember just being absolutely blown away. And then to do this research this week that like that was Rob Marshall's first movie.

[1:06:00] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it's insane, which is like it.

[1:06:03] Dan Tracy: And it may go down as debatably, arguably the best movie musical of all time. And then Dan and I, we did it and we did it in college.

[1:06:13] Joe Carroll: And I think because should I tell my my my drummer my story now?

[1:06:18] Dan Tracy: I was going to I was going to just out Joe that on the final day of performances, you know, in college, you only do one weekend, just like kind of in high school.

[1:06:26] Joe Carroll: So in the final day of performances, the the drummer who was the head of the drum faculty at the school was having had a herniated disc in his back and literally couldn't sit.

[1:06:36] Dan Tracy: So Joe, the morning of our final show, had to go in as the drummer and sight read the drum chart of this show.

[1:06:45] Joe Carroll: And there we are, like getting ready to do all that jazz. The swing has to go on for Joe's track, which who even has a swing in high school.

[1:06:51] Dan Tracy: It was like some flute in college, some fluke that that even happened. Izzy McCalla was the female swing, I think. Right.

[1:06:57] Joe Carroll: And the assistant dance captain or something. And and Joe just so crushed.

[1:07:02] Joe Carroll: Well, it was a film. Yeah, well, it's you're you're pretty close on that story.

[1:07:06] Joe Carroll: So what happened? It was act two.

[1:07:09] Joe Carroll: I came in for act two. The drummer, the head of the drummer.

[1:07:13] Joe Carroll: That's right. He tried to he had he had basically what happened was he had had a procedure. He had had surgery and the surgery went wrong and he was feeling like super ill.

[1:07:22] Joe Carroll: And he was like throwing up all day and leading up to the final performance. And Cynthia pulled me aside before the show. Our music director pulled me aside before the show and said, hey, listen, the drummer's really, really sick.

[1:07:33] Joe Carroll: Work if in an emergency like like he might have to go to the hospital. And do you think that you could sight read the second act of Chicago?

[1:07:42] Joe Carroll: And I was like, I mean, I'd like you just don't say no. You don't say no.

[1:07:47] Joe Carroll: Especially not 22 year old Joe did not say no to anything. He was like, I can do it. I can do it. I can do it.

[1:07:52] Dan Tracy: So so we get done with act one and I'm checking in. I'm like, you know, is this going to happen? Is this going to happen? And eventually we get to intermission and I'm in it. And here we go.

[1:08:03] Joe Carroll: He has to go back to the hospital. He can barely stand. He's getting all feverish. And so I sit down at the drums and the way that the drums are set up in the pit.

[1:08:09] Joe Carroll: And I think it's like this on Broadway. It was kind of in the middle. And I sat down and just did the best I could through the entire courtroom scene, which is all like zips and cowbells and weird crashes.

[1:08:23] Joe Carroll: And people on stage, I'm sure, were like, what the fuck is happening?

[1:08:28] Tyler Hanes: I can attest. I played Harrison, so I was the courtroom judge. And that's like was my little feature. And I don't remember anything being weird.

[1:08:35] Joe Carroll: I the only thing I remember really screwing up was honestly right out of the get. I know a girl. She says she's going to have a baby.

[1:08:45] Joe Carroll: Now, why didn't I think of that? Can you imagine? I mean, can you imagine?

[1:08:54] Tyler Hanes: Do you believe it? I mean, do you believe it?

[1:09:01] Joe Carroll: I forget it was like some fills or some things like I was getting my my my hands together. And I just I remember I could kind of see Casey, who was playing Velma in our production. And she was like I was like, oh, my God, I like the wheels are coming off.

[1:09:13] Joe Carroll: The wheels are coming off. This is not going to work. And then like and then it was fine. And then it ended up being OK.

[1:09:19] Joe Carroll: But yeah, it was it was one of the craziest theatrical experiences of my life. Sight reading the second act of Chicago. I love that story so much.

[1:09:26] Dan Tracy: Still in my in my in my mesh, like right cut off with no. Still like I had eyeliner on. I think I kept the bowler hat on.

[1:09:36] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Anyway, it worked out and everybody, you know, it was a cool it was a cool moment.

[1:09:40] Tyler Hanes: So that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It was wild.

[1:09:44] Joe Carroll: I mean, we didn't talk about this. Well, I want to get into the show. But Tyler and I, the way that Tyler and I know each other, we did a workshop of a Michael John LaChiusa musical back in the fall of 2014, I think.

[1:09:54] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. Yeah. And a new Michael John LaChiusa musical.

[1:09:59] Joe Carroll: And it was directed by Graciela Daniel, who was the original Hunyak in Chicago, which is crazy.

[1:10:06] Tyler Hanes: She's a Tony Award winning choreographer and director and has done a bunch of stuff with Chita Rivera. But that was kind of a bizarre, also cool, like connection worlds.

[1:10:16] Tyler Hanes: Melding sort of thing. Yeah.

[1:10:19] Tyler Hanes: I really hope that something happens with that production because Tyler and I both have we get a point on that production if it makes any money.

[1:10:24] Joe Carroll: It doesn't exist anymore.

[1:10:27] Tyler Hanes: It doesn't exist anymore.

[1:10:30] Joe Carroll: Yeah, exactly. That's going to be our retirement. Right.

[1:10:34] Tyler Hanes: Yes. Dan, did you have any any more of a connection with the show before before doing it at school?

[1:10:40] Dan Tracy: I remember watching the movie more than a dozen times, like in my parents' basement.

[1:10:46] Dan Tracy: I don't know why. Like I have this very specific memory of watching it in my parents' basement. It was such a good movie. Rewatching it again after kind of doing all of the work that we've been doing recently.

[1:10:58] Joe Carroll: Yeah, with writing and studying films and studying like structure, looking at the way Rob Marshall and Bill Condon put together the first seven minutes of the show before basically leading to the end of all that jazz is probably the greatest seven minutes set up of a movie.

[1:11:18] Dan Tracy: It teaches you everything you need to know in a way that's super unique, that's super dynamic. They do so many brilliant things in this movie with cutting between cinematic devices and theatrical devices, which I think is so cool.

[1:11:31] Joe Carroll: Like putting the numbers on stages, which is awesome.

[1:11:34] Dan Tracy: And the way that that editing style and all of that happens in the first seven minutes of this movie are like second to none. In my opinion, I can't think of another movie that does it as well as that.

[1:11:45] Joe Carroll: Totally. It's like the best of both worlds. You know, it is like it's the best of film and the best of theater. You know, they don't try to separate.

[1:11:53] Tyler Hanes: The scenes are very quiet and very intimate, and then the production numbers are like, okay, here's Taye Diggs, and he's gonna step out and be like, you know, now we're doing cell block tango, and we're just gonna do it, and we're gonna film it, and it's gonna be sick, and then we're gonna go back to the story, you know? I think that's what I'm doing with this musical, though, because it goes from breaking the fourth wall immediately in the show, breaks the fourth wall, and then it goes into fantasy, then it goes into reality, and then it goes into a scene. I think it translated really well onto the screen, because it already had that device built into it, so then it's just like, all through Roxy's lens, it works so perfectly, and it doesn't make it, you know?

And that's tricky with a musical movie, to find a device like that. And I think that's where, I know with, like, fun fact, Rob Marshall, he was originally supposed to direct Rent, and he went in for his meeting to talk about, or he went in for a meeting of talk about Rent, but he was like, actually, I want to do Chicago. So they shelved Rent for a couple years, like three more years, because he really sold him with the whole, through the lens of Roxy, through her eyes.

[1:13:08] Dan Tracy: That's awesome.

[1:13:09] Joe Carroll: Wow.

[1:13:09] Tyler Hanes: What different movie musicals those two are.

[1:13:12] Joe Carroll: Yeah, truly.

[1:13:14] Dan Tracy: I loved that Rent movie, though.

[1:13:15] Joe Carroll: I loved that Rent movie, too. I'm not coming for it. I just, I think that if we get into the Rotten Tomatoes section of this, people think very differently about the Rent movie and the Chicago movie.

[1:13:25] Tyler Hanes: That's true.

[1:13:27] Joe Carroll: Should we get into some history? Let's talk about some fun, some facts, some historical context for this baby.

[1:13:33] Tyler Hanes: Me and my baby.

[1:13:38] Joe Carroll: Yikes.

[1:13:38] Tyler Hanes: Me and my baby. Chicago opened, the original production of Chicago opened on June 3rd, 1975 at the 46th Street Theater and ran for 936 performances. It starred Chita Rivera, Gwen Verdon, Jerry Orbach, played by Tyler Hanes and Fosse Verdon, and Barney Martin as Amos Hart. The show was directed and choreographed by Bob Fosse, who was in the prime slash peak of his career at this point.

[1:14:03] Dan Tracy: Peaking.

[1:14:04] Tyler Hanes: He had already won eight Academy Awards for Cabaret, so I would say that he was doing pretty damn well for himself. He'd made his name working on shows like Damn Yankees, Sweet Charity, Pajama Game and Pippin, and obviously the Cabaret movie that I've already mentioned. And this was the year, you wrote this down, that this was the year that he won, he got it in a single year.

[1:14:25] Joe Carroll: That was in '72. He's the only person to ever win an Oscar, an Emmy and a Tony in one year.

[1:14:31] Tyler Hanes: The next one will be Jeremy Pope, I'm sure, but like, you know, it was Bob Fosse and yeah, he's obviously a legend. He went on to make some movies after this and had about another 10 years or so of his career. And there's lots of great movies. I used to love watch that movie, All That Jazz is such a good movie. The revival production started at City Center Encores!, which is a weekend series where they play musicals that are very rarely heard. And three times a year, they present concert versions of these productions at their venue Off-Broadway. This production was directed by Walter Bobby with new choreography set by Ann Reinking in the style of Bob Fosse. And she also reprised her role as Roxy Hart.

And B.B. Neuwirth played Velma Kelly, Joel Gray was Amos Hart, and James Naughton was Billy Flynn. That production was then picked up by Fran and Barry Weissler, the producers of many shows, including Waitress, and was taken to Broadway and is the production that is currently running on Broadway.

[1:15:43] Joe Carroll: I wonder what in the style of Bob Fosse, what kind of credit is that? Honestly, I'm just wondering financially speaking, obviously. She obviously came up with her own thing, but I don't know. Did you guys do that with the Cats? Wasn't there some of that with Cats too?

[1:15:58] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, it was interesting because with Cats, it wasn't like half and half, but it was a lot of Gillian Lynn and a lot of Blankenbuehler. The percentage, I don't really know, but it's in the style of, and wanting it to be especially with Bob Fosse, because I think it was like this with Pippin too. I think there are things that remain intact, like Manson Trio and the Pippin Reprise. They're pretty much the same. But there are things that they can, like All That Jazz, for example, Ann Reinking did that, but it's all using his vocabulary. Her and Chet Walker, who were his protégés, are the best people to do that because they were under his wing. But that's what I always know it to be. It's got some of the original and some brand new stuff, and I think that it obviously worked out for her great with that because she got a Tony.

[1:16:58] Joe Carroll: Totally.

[1:17:00] Tyler Hanes: It's interesting because I think the Chicago Revival, now everybody associates what they think of with Bob Fosse as all black. That's not necessarily true. You go back to the original one and it's so different. There's footage out there, but it's kind of hard to come by. I don't know if you guys have seen it on YouTube. They have the, I think it's the commercial, oh no, that's Danson. I think there's a Chicago commercial, though, like a TV one.

[1:17:30] Dan Tracy: From the original production?

[1:17:31] Tyler Hanes: From the original. Yeah. I only know the Tony performance. I mean, you can find that one, but that's kind of just as shimmery and shiny as it is in the Revival.

[1:17:44] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[1:17:44] Tyler Hanes: Oh, that's so interesting because I wonder if that was because I always like that this Revival was so pared down. And the reason that, frankly, it's made so much money and lasted so long is because it was so cheap and so sort of bare bones, you know, such a bare bones production. But the all black thing, I wonder if that was just like a costume out of choice that, you know, like City Center, you rehearse for six days or something. You have no time to put it together. I wonder if they were just like, screw it, just wear your dance blacks and we'll figure it out later.

[1:18:13] Tyler Hanes: Maybe. I will say this. The marketing for the Revival is brilliant. It's iconic. You see it and it's like black, white, red block letters. And it's just like this show is sexy. And I think with the minimalist approach that they took, it's kind of funny because the original one came out the same. It was the same year as Chorus Line. Chorus Line is so it's like two costumes and it's a lung and mirrors. And so it's like with this Revival, a part of me, I thought about this at one point because I was like, I wonder if they just took a page out of that book and were like, we're just going to make it, you know, really simple. And really, you know, one set, it's a bandstand, you know, a bra and like, you know, a boulder cap. Broadway show.

[1:19:03] Joe Carroll: Couple of cans and call it a day.

[1:19:05] Tyler Hanes: Yeah.

[1:19:05] Joe Carroll: Yeah. The only thing you're really paying for is dance shoes. And other than that, it's like there's not really as much cost. And they were talking about that this week with Six returning in London, that the key to these shows running for a long time is that they're cheap to run. And obviously, Chicago has hit the nail on the head with that.

[1:19:24] Tyler Hanes: Even having the budget in there to hire plenty of celebrities to come in and fill their stages.

[1:19:33] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which which is it?

[1:19:37] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. The original production. Sorry. Go ahead.

[1:19:40] Joe Carroll: No, I was just going to say that's why I mean, we're going to get to this, too. But like that Chorus Line in Chicago were the same year, two of the most iconic dance shows of all time. Duking it out. I mean, that's that's that's pretty interesting to me.

[1:19:50] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, for sure. The original production, as we were just mentioning, the reviews were mixed. People weren't really sure what to make of it. It turns out not to be the hit production that the current revival is. It runs for under a thousand performances. The audiences at the time were not a huge fan of this Brechtian style where the where they're breaking the fourth wall and using the elements of concept musical and elements of vaudeville to tell the story. It just didn't really work for people at the time. We weren't as attuned with the exploitation of the American celebrity as we are now. I think like watching the movie now, that resonates so much because we are so familiar with all of these people who commit crimes and are then touted as celebrities or villains and they still have this lore about them. You know, you think of people like Jeffrey Epstein and stuff. It's kind of crazy.

[1:20:43] Joe Carroll: Totally.

[1:20:44] Tyler Hanes: The original production was nominated for 10 Tonys and did not win any, which may have been actually on that list, Joe, for that game show we played, wasn't it?

[1:20:54] Joe Carroll: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Most like most shows nominated for the most.

[1:21:00] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. Most nominations and zero wins.

[1:21:02] Joe Carroll: Yeah, we play trivia this week with the guys from Broadway Talk Live and their game show called Empty Trivia. It was super fun. You can find it on YouTube or Facebook. If you go to visit Broadway Talk Live dot com, it was live streamed on YouTube, so I'm sure you can find us singing poorly.

[1:21:23] Tyler Hanes: The Revival, on the other hand, won six Tony Awards and that is was more than any other Broadway revival in history. And it is the longest running Broadway revival of all time still to this day. And they were unseated with their Tony wins by South Pacific in 2008. The yeah, the show was very well received. The New York Daily News said, Chicago impressed me far more than the original and lol that that guy saw both. And Ben Brantley said, make love to the audience was another Fosse dictum. That's exactly what Miss Reinking and her ensemble do. Chicago can still glibly can still seem glibly cynical and artificially cold, especially in its week or second act. But these performers know just how to take off the chill. Boy, isn't that Ben Brantley great with words?

[1:22:19] Joe Carroll: What a wordsmith.

[1:22:21] Tyler Hanes: That's that's a little. Yeah.

[1:22:23] Joe Carroll: Rest in power, Ben Brantley, in the second act of your life.

[1:22:28] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, people are going to be people in musical theater college are going to be reading his book the way that we all read Frank Rich's book. You know, he's going to write a book about like, you know, stuff that one. But these performers know just how to take off the chill. Yikes.

[1:22:43] Joe Carroll: Yikes. They Chicago won the Chicago Revival won the Tony Award for best revival of a musical best leading actress in a musical for B.B. Neuwirth, best leading actor in a musical for James Donohue played Billy Flynn, best lighting design, best director for Walter Bobby and best choreographer for Ann Reinking. Walter Bobby is also known for directing White Christmas, Bright Star. He also had a career as a performer. He's a BRS guy. He was we have the same agent. He's been there for a long time. I don't know if he acts anymore, but he's obviously still around and still directing and still in the business. Historical context for the theatrical community at the time, the original obviously opened, as we've said, in the same year as Michael Bennett's highly successful chorus line, which beat Chicago for ticket sales and Tony Awards.

And basically, this is that thing that we keep coming up against where some show kind of meets its match and a show that maybe could have taken Tony Awards in another season kind of falls to the wayside for another show that has done better. And that's that, you know?

[1:23:54] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. Should we talk about the film a little bit?

[1:23:57] Joe Carroll: Yeah, please.

[1:23:58] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. The film grossed three hundred six million dollars worldwide, which made it the single most successful movie that never was number one or two in the box office. Interesting fact, it never was like the top movie. We should all be making movies. Why aren't we making movies? Should we just be three hundred million dollars? I mean, I know it cost. I don't know what the budget was. I don't know if you have a million.

[1:24:23] Dan Tracy: I think. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's obviously a lot. But like, let's just. Yeah. I want I want two hundred fifty million dollars in profit. That's how that works. Dear God. Joe loves money.

[1:24:35] Joe Carroll: I'm just kidding. On Rotten Tomatoes, the film has an 86 percent approval rating based on two hundred fifty five or two hundred fifty six reviews, with an average rating of seven point nine six out of ten. I give it a nine out of ten, ten out of ten. It is such a freaking good movie. It was nominated for 13 Academy Awards and won six. It won Best Picture, Best Supporting Actress, Catherine Zeta-Jones, who has a super interesting career that I was reading about yesterday, Best Art Direction, which is cannot go unmentioned how well this movie is art directed, how beautiful the sets are, how it's all integrated, how the world of Chicago in that time is so iconic in this film. They won for Best Costume Design, Best Film Editing, which is another one that cannot go unnoticed, and Best Sound the movie.

[1:25:27] Dan Tracy: I was going to get into this when we talk about Cell Block Tango, but they did so many cool things where they changed the frame rate.

[1:25:35] Joe Carroll: Oh, here he goes. Let him nerd out. Ladies and gentlemen, if you'd like to go get a cup of coffee while Dan talks about frame rate, go ahead. But Dan's going to talk about frame rate. Go ahead, Dan.

[1:25:45] Tyler Hanes: Joe just wants to make the money part of films. He doesn't want to learn about films.

[1:25:48] Joe Carroll: I'm just kidding, man. I love when you get nerdy about this shit. Go ahead. Go ahead. Talk about your frame rate. Talk about your camera moves.

[1:25:54] Tyler Hanes: Obviously, I'm watching Cell Block Tango, and I think they may have done it. They may have done the opposite in Razzle Dazzle, where they used more frames per second. So when you use more frames per second, it gives you this like fluidity because you're seeing more pictures in each span of a second. But if you cut the frame rate, you have that kind of choppy...

[1:26:16] Tyler Hanes: It looks sped up, but it's not. And that's what they did with "Cell Block Tango" and with some other punchier numbers in this. It's the technique they used in all of those fight scenes in the Sherlock Holmes movies, where they shoot it at 22 frames a second, and suddenly it makes the action look like it's moving faster than it is because they have fewer pictures. And I always think that's super cool. It's like, that's what Charlie Chaplin was known for, shooting those movies at 15 frames a second, which wasn't as far off. I think at that time we were only using 18 frames a second. So when you think about it that way, the people were used to seeing 18, they cut it down by three. People are used to now seeing 24, and they cut it down by two. So it's a comparable kind of shift. I don't know anything, but it sounds like that is why some of those shots feel so kind of old-timey, like why that vaudeville style in a lot of those numbers works so well, maybe?

[1:27:07] Joe Carroll: Yeah, for sure. That's totally part of it. To me, the way that you said that Charlie Chaplin was doing that, it does feel, it has kind of a silent movie style at times. I mean, I love, and I'm going to get to this at the end, but the whole, they both reach for the gun, the ventriloquist sequence, which is just shot, it feels of another era for sure.

[1:27:25] Tyler Hanes: Absolutely. And as Joe said, this was Rob Marshall's big screen debut. He then went on to work on "Memoirs of a Geisha," "Mary Poppins Returns," the "Into the Woods" film that we were speaking about, question mark, last week. Tyler, we did "Into the Woods" last week, and we just kind of skipped over the Rob Marshall version, just like go watch Bernadette and period.

[1:27:47] Joe Carroll: Did it go through the lens of the witch? Did he use the same?

[1:27:52] Tyler Hanes: I wish, no. He did it through the lens of a, you know, Disney executive, and he made a few mistakes, I'd say.

[1:28:04] Joe Carroll: Yeah, exactly. He also worked on nine "Pirates of the Caribbean"?

[1:28:10] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, the, like the last one.

[1:28:18] Joe Carroll: Okay. Like the ones that nobody saw, but I didn't realize this, "The Cinderella" with Brandy and Whitney Houston.

[1:28:24] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, who knew? Which is like absolutely the most iconic Cinderella of all time. He also did that Annie, the Annie-Mu remake with Kathy Bates.

[1:28:30] Joe Carroll: Yes. I think that's what helped get him a meeting with producers for this, because he directed it.

[1:28:37] Tyler Hanes: Gotcha. Because that must have, was that a major TV movie?

[1:28:44] Joe Carroll: Yeah, that had like, Chris McDonnell was in it.

[1:28:51] Tyler Hanes: Right, I remember. Yeah, it was like the Wonderful World of Disney.

[1:28:55] Joe Carroll: Yeah, right, right. Yeah, look at this cast. I'm just looking this up. Kathy Bates, Victor Garber, Alan Cumming, Audra McDonald.

[1:29:01] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. Yikes, what a cast. I think I remember watching the debut of that.

[1:29:06] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I remember watching that all the time, for sure. Disney movies that they used to do. Those were so good. Oh my gosh, and Christian Chenoweth as Hannigan?

[1:29:09] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. Good lord. Maybe we need to watch that.

[1:29:16] Joe Carroll: Seriously. Development of the show. So we're kind of working backwards here. It's "Chicago," the movie is based on a play that was written by a woman named Maureen Dallas Watkins, who was a reporter in Chicago. And these characters are real people. And the stories that she was really covering, and they've been adapted multiple times. Cecil B. DeMille made a silent film called "Chicago" in 1927, starring Max Sennett. And it was later remade by Ginger Rogers as a film called "Roxy Hart" in 1942. In that version, Roxy was accused of a murder she didn't actually commit. And then in the 1960s, Gwen Verdon read the play and asked her husband, Bob Fosse, if he would be interested in creating a musical adaptation. And Fosse went down and tried to get the rights from Maureen Watkins and couldn't get them. And Maureen kept declining. And it wasn't until she passed away that her estate gave the rights over to Bob Fosse and they were able to make the movie.

[1:30:24] Tyler Hanes: I thought that was one of the coolest parts of one of the coolest moments in "Fosse/Verdon," the way they handled the Chicago, sort of like the creation of Chicago, you know, like it was this, it's obviously something that is probably, you know, John Kander and Fred Ebb and Bob Fosse, what they're known, one of the things they're known most for. So you're kind of waiting in this great TV series, which like, if you haven't seen it, we talked about it last year when it came out, but like, if you haven't seen it, go back and watch that. I loved how they handled this because we're waiting for Chicago. We're waiting for this plot point of like, how is Chicago going to come about? And what is, you know, Gwen's going to do it and what's in ranking and all this stuff. I just thought that was excellent.

[1:31:00] Joe Carroll: The part of that too, with Chicago for me was, I didn't know, I mean, obviously "Fosse/Verdon" really, really showed their relationship and Gwen's influence on his career. But the fact that she doesn't really get much credit for the creation of Chicago, and that was really, she was driving that. She was the one. She read the play. She wanted to do it. Like when they said, like, she was really driving it and pushing it. And she had to fight for a lot of things too. It was later on her career. So, you know, there was that aspect of it, but it was fascinating. You know, that whole side of it, the part where, you know, she got sick or she got like, she had to have like vocal surgery and the guys would come in and, you know, and that was stunt casting right there.

But then like, they didn't even like announce it. They just had her come in and then all of a sudden they had like the critics come back and re-review it. And then the show got better reviews and, you know, that's when it started picking up making more money and stuff like that. But yeah, it covered that in the show. The story is that she got a feather stuck in her throat and it gave her notes.

[1:32:13] Tyler Hanes: Oh God. So I don't know what happened. Like it got stuck in some place where she couldn't get it out. And then maybe she was singing through it. Is that true?

[1:32:27] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Wow. That's insane.

[1:32:33] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Because I'm just picturing like how like a feather, because I think it was something like a confetti can or something or.

[1:32:37] Joe Carroll: Yeah. It's something about the finale of the show.

[1:32:43] Tyler Hanes: And so she had to get an emergency nodule surgery on her vocal cords and they didn't know what to do. They thought the show was going to close and they got Liza to come in.

[1:32:50] Joe Carroll: Crazy. Picked up. Right. Wild. Should we talk about some iconic casting? Speaking of Liza?

[1:32:56] Tyler Hanes: Totally. I mean, the casting and the revival is kind of crazy. And I mean, we were looking up some of these names and like and I actually talked to last week. We had Benton Whiteley on talking about "Into the Woods," and I actually talked to him about this in an audition about the casting of Chicago. Like one of the reasons that it has lasted so long is this stunt casting, quote, stunt casting thing where they get celebrities to come in and play Thelma or Roxy or Billy or whatever. And, you know, kind of it's this debatable thing that like some people love it, some people hate it, but people want to see their favorite people in Broadway shows.

[1:33:36] Joe Carroll: And we could do a whole I don't want to sidetrack too much, but basically a quick Wikipedia, the casting and the revival, Brandy Usher, Chris Seber, Charlotte Dambach, Cuba Gooding Jr., Michael C. Hall, Roz Ryan, Jerry Springer, Brooke Shields, NeNe Leakes, Deborah Monk, Patrick Swayze, Rita Wilson, Alan Thicke, Melanie Griffith, Tate Iggs, Carol Woods, Chandra Wilson, Christine Petty, Ashley Simpson, Adam Pascal, Amy Spanger, Tony Yazbek, Todrick Hall. I mean, Wendy Williams, Christy Brinkley, the guy, the Heisman winner, Eddie George.

[1:34:18] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, like it's it's on and on and on. And it's one of these things that like, you know, I think, you know, the good of it is it brings a new audience to the theater. You know, people who might not go see Chicago, but are fans of Eddie George are going to go see Chicago. So that's the good of it. And then there's a bunch of bad, too.

[1:34:37] Joe Carroll: And I'm also just to say that in the scheme of stunt casting, to me, stunt casting Chicago, which is thematically about the allure of celebrity, is way more acceptable than stunt casting Hadestown or some even something like Wicked. Like having a celebrity come in to play Velma Kelly totally makes sense, 100 percent, because that's what the story is.

[1:35:07] Tyler Hanes: That is an excellent point.

[1:35:08] Joe Carroll: So not to defend the Weisslers for their choices to pad their wallets, but, you know, it does make sense and thematically in this show. So I give them the benefit of the doubt there.

[1:35:20] Tyler Hanes: Totally.

[1:35:22] Joe Carroll: I also love seeing Chita Rivera in the movie. When I first obviously was watching these movies, I had no idea who Chita Rivera is, but she has that one little scene with Queen Latifah.

[1:35:30] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, exactly. Which is just like such a nice little nod of the hat to the OGs.

[1:35:37] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[1:35:38] Tyler Hanes: John C. Reilly also is amazing in that movie.

[1:35:41] Joe Carroll: He's so good in the movie. I mean, it's just like it's kind of for me, that's like he's he's the top of the mountain with "Mr. Cellophane's" like, yeah, I mean, so heartbreaking when he finally gets to the stand and Billy calls him Amos for the first time.

[1:36:04] Tyler Hanes: Face lights up. He's like, yeah, my name is Amos.

[1:36:06] Joe Carroll: Yeah. And then, I mean, you talked about a lot of the casting of the original, more movie casting. I thought that was interesting. Deirdre Goodwin played June. She's done 10 Broadway shows. Did you guys do the revival together of "A Chorus Line"?

[1:36:14] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. Yeah. She was Sheila in that. In the opening alone, like, it's got Marianne Lamb, Desmond Richardson, Sean Palmer, Scott Fowler. I mean, it's just like that's how for me when I because I was in college when they were filming it. And so a good friend of mine from the Fosse tour, Jennifer Civelli, was was in the movie. And so she would be telling me stuff like we were keeping in touch for the whole time and seeing the film. And now, you know, knowing more of the community. But when I saw it, I just moved to New York. I just made my debut. And so the cast, we all went and saw the movie. And it's no, it's it's jam packed with a lot of people. It's I mean, as far as like, but even even the cell block girls, you know, you got Susie Meisner, who was Liz, who that's the leg. And she's on like the American. She's a Broadway girl. She actually ended up. She's done 10 million. She's on everything. Yeah. She did. She did a lot of the choreography for "Fosse/Verdon."

[1:37:19] Joe Carroll: Oh, wow. Yeah. And she played like, you know, his first wife. But no, there's a there's, you know, they padded that. I mean, for some of the people, you have to look, but they're in there.

[1:37:28] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, that's really great. Yeah, because I was I was looking up. There's a lot of like it seemed like a lot of L.A., you know, a lot of a lot of a lot of people that I didn't recognize. But that that sounds amazing. Did you guys know? Did you read who they wanted, who he wanted for Billy Flynn originally?

[1:37:42] Joe Carroll: No, no, no.

[1:37:43] Tyler Hanes: Michael Jackson.

[1:37:51] Joe Carroll: Whoa. Yeah. Like in the Harvey Harvey Weinstein.

[1:37:55] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. That's going to like take too much focus away from Renee Zellweger and Catherine Zeta-Jones. But like Michael as Billy Flynn. I mean, it's interesting. I want to like on a deep dive of who originally because they were going to make this film with the original show. They were going to make it a movie. Yeah. It was going to be like Bob was going to direct it. And it was going to be Goldie Hawn, Liza Minnelli and Frank Sinatra.

[1:38:17] Joe Carroll: Wow. And then when they came back to making it, I mean, like Madonna was being considered. Charlize Theron was originally cast as Roxy when they had the first director. And then when Rob Marshall came on board, she had to audition again and Renee Zellweger got it. But Kathy Bates was supposed to be Mama Morton drop out because of about Schmidt. John Travolta passed on what's called Billy Flynn, like Keanu Reeves for Amos. Oh, like the list of people that like were like being considered crazy, Britney Spears was supposed to be go to Hell Kitty.

[1:39:03] Tyler Hanes: Wow. Like it's they saw they there were a lot of people they were looking at. It's that's that's crazy.

[1:39:08] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Lucy Liu's another one. Just insane. Like so good.

[1:39:13] Tyler Hanes: Oh, yeah. Talk about an entrance.

[1:39:15] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Seriously. My God. I was like, this woman is a star. Holy crap. Right. That is crazy. I hadn't I hadn't known all of that history that I love that kind of who's the third choice is the person who gets it. Oh, and also mentioned that last week at Jones, she was offered Roxy first and she.

[1:39:30] Tyler Hanes: Wow. You didn't know the show because the producer like heard her singing at like a like a holiday party or something. And so he offered her Roxy and she didn't know the show, but she knew all that jazz. And she that's why she took them up. She was like, I want to sing that song.

[1:39:48] Joe Carroll: Wow. I can't even see her as Roxy. She's like, she she hits so hard as Velma in this movie. Like, yeah, I mean, say what you will about the the little night music revival. But like that, she that was a tough night for her. She hits in this movie like it's it's she's unbelievable. She's on the frickin leaveable when she comes out. I mean, we'll get where I think we're about to this, you know, where we just will nerd out about our I do want to get to some dream castings. But when she comes ripping out during "Cell Block Tango," it is like that she is hit. She is hit in that bob haircut. I mean, she just like just like.

[1:40:39] Tyler Hanes: And, you know, do things a little differently, but she you will never unseat her from the throne of this movie. She just is so fricking good.

[1:40:47] Dan Tracy: Yeah, it's so good. What? Let's do some dream casting real quick. If there's anybody that you could, you know, I mean, so many people have played these roles, you know, and I think it's such a star vehicle for especially for these women that, you know, the first one that popped into my mind was to see someone like Zoe Saldana play Velma because she has the dance background.

[1:41:08] Tyler Hanes: Lest you forget Center Stage, which is one of my all time favorite bad movies. You know, like Good Call, the dance sequences and that are second to none. But like somebody like that, I think would be amazing.

[1:41:27] Dan Tracy: I want to see did Taye Diggs play Billy Flynn?

[1:41:29] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, he did. OK, OK, because seeing him in the movie, I was like, I was like, OK, well, that's a no brainer because I also saw I just saw him on a guest star. Alex and I are watching New Girl right now before bed to just like try to stay happy. We're just like sad all the time. So we're like, well, that's a funny comedy we watch before bed. And he has a great guest star as like he has a great guest star in that that we just saw.

[1:41:49] Dan Tracy: That's so funny. I was going to say I would love to see Jake Johnson as Amos.

[1:41:54] Tyler Hanes: Oh, oh, Jake Johnson from the or like a Mark Duplass, like one of those like doofy kind of every man guys would be really great.

[1:42:03] Dan Tracy: What do you think, Tyler? Who would you who would you put in there?

[1:42:05] Tyler Hanes: I don't know, because I was saying I was thinking about this and I kind of it's interesting because like I would want to switch up some of the genders like I would see someone like Glenn Close or Patti LuPone as Billy Flynn.

[1:42:23] Dan Tracy: Oh, that would be that would be so I would want to see or like or Regina King, I want to but I want to see Regina King do like Roxy, though.

[1:42:32] Tyler Hanes: Like, yeah, like people that are or Amber Gray. Yeah. Like there are certain people that I want to just see that on them because they're like the obvious choice of like, oh, well, this will work for that. But I want to see like what just me as a fan of their acting. Let's see Amber Gray do Roxy because it's the complete opposite of Hadestown or like right.

[1:42:56] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Or I don't know, like, oh, God, Adrianne Warren.

[1:43:01] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, she could do it. You can just switch off roles every two weeks.

[1:43:04] Dan Tracy: Exactly. Like Roxy Velma and Mama Morton.

[1:43:08] Tyler Hanes: Right. Right. Like.

[1:43:10] Dan Tracy: Right. I want to hear her, Mama, if you're good to Mama and and also what's the the the number that just floors me and is every every time is when Velma does.

[1:43:24] Tyler Hanes: I can't do it alone. I mean, it's such a star turn. So like to see like I just want like the Adrianne Warren, like one woman show in Chicago, I think. I mean, I kind of the thing with Chicago that I would like to see is if it was just all women like, yeah, we need the guys there. I mean, you do, but you don't like especially like the male ensemble. Like it. Sorry, I'm not coming for the male ensemble at all because they're great. I would just like to see like a full female production of it where and it's not, you know, like just gender bans and things.

[1:43:54] Dan Tracy: And yeah, well, totally. And even like Emma Thompson with her with her late night haircut, with like the the, you know, like as Billy Flynn, I think that could be, you know, coming downstage in a tuxedo like, yeah, I'm in for I'm in for that. For sure. I just refell in love with Sharon Stone watching Ratched and she would be great as Billy Flynn.

[1:44:12] Tyler Hanes: Oh, she'd be. Yeah.

[1:44:14] Joe Carroll: Should we talk about some music?

[1:44:15] Tyler Hanes: Joe's favorite part.

[1:44:16] Joe Carroll: Let's do it. This is my favorite part. So first first steps first, we do the goosebump test, which is just, you know, whatever gives you goosebumps every single time. Listen to it. Mine is the speed up out of the overture into all that jazz.

[1:44:24] Tyler Hanes: That just every oh, it's it's actually remember it with the choreography to where you the whole ensemble runs out and you throw your hands in the air and then you melt slowly, right?

[1:45:00] Dan Tracy: Right. That's what happens.

[1:45:03] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. Dan was just about to launch into the opening opening number choreography. And oh, yeah, yeah.

[1:45:10] Dan Tracy: So good. So good.

[1:45:12] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, that's why we didn't have an elevator.

[1:45:13] Joe Carroll: So it wasn't as it wasn't as we did.

[1:45:16] Tyler Hanes: So, yeah, we're a drummer.

[1:45:18] Joe Carroll: Yeah, true. Mine is the just that overture.

[1:45:22] Tyler Hanes: Five, six, seven, eight.

[1:46:22] Joe Carroll: All of those twists and turns.

[1:46:38] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, all of the twists and turns of that overture.

[1:46:40] Joe Carroll: And that's a pretty good section, actually, going into all that jazz, Joe. I think we have almost the same exact answer.

[1:46:46] Tyler Hanes: You got one, Tyler.

[1:46:47] Tyler Hanes: I my mind's always going to be cell block, but it's the moment. And this is why the film captured it so well, too, because it's after the dirty bum bum bum. And then they're like coming down. And then there's Gigi Goodwin, like kicking her face. And then, yeah, if you don't open it up, how could you tell me that I was wrong?

[1:47:36] Dan Tracy: And you know, I bet you you would have done the same.

[1:47:41] Tyler Hanes: And the lighting and the core, yeah, where they just go. It's I love the trailer. It's something that I like out to. It's something I wish like I have like fantasies of doing that. Like, yes, it's just it's. It's everything. Like all elements came together in that one moment. And I remember seeing it in the theater. And I just was like, it just made me like want to jump out of my skin because it just was so powerful.

[1:48:12] Dan Tracy: And then the choreography to the end, that whole number, even in the show. It's so it's so brilliant. You've got this lot of women, these like strong, flawed women that are like just it's it's so even just them walking. Sorry, the whole number. And yes, I think this I apologize. But like them even like walking into the overhead light, all saying their monologues really quickly into their seats. And then it's just so that number is so perfectly built and it's perfect age and in the movie. And just that one moment, though, in the movie and the music that that gives me chills.

[1:48:53] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, it's peak Fosse. That is like peak Fosse. Let's show athleticism strength like it is a definition of fierce. Before that word was used for everything. It's like I said here, it was like the OG WAP, you know, just like there is no Cardi B without cell block tango.

[1:49:12] Joe Carroll: So that's outstanding. Yeah, we the next section is favorite production numbers. And I think that I talked about that. I was going to say cell block. And I talked about that framing style of the 22 frames a second. It just really helped to bring that all together. I also love Razzle Dazzle. In this version on the on the steps, I guess I read that the original staging Fosse wanted it to be an orgy on the steps of the courthouse. And Jerry Orbach talked him out of it and said, that's just not it's not going to give you what you want.

[1:49:47] Joe Carroll: And then mine, my favorite production number. I mean, obviously, cell block is perfect. I love the theatrical device and just the execution of "They Both Reached for the Gun," the ventriloquist number with Billy Flynn in the press conference. Notice how his mouth never moves. Almost. The way that, you know, this guy is just completely manipulating the press and the situation and the use of just like on stage, just her sitting on his lap and he's doing a bad ventriloquist impression is just such a smart yet obvious way to do that. And then I just love the choreography in the background with the reporters. I remember, you know, doing it poorly with Dan, but I love that. So production number wise, I think that those are probably my favorites.

[1:50:54] Dan Tracy: Yeah, I mean, cell blocks. I mean, the thing with Chicago, and this is still going back on the music, but like every song in it is just so strong and so good. And like you start off like for me, it's like even just starting off with "All That Jazz," like that. And that is awesome. All of it, like Velma's number, just that marathon that she goes on is incredible. And I think it just also just showcases the production numbers. It just showcases everybody really, really well. And, you know, like because it was built for Gwen Verdon and Chita Rivera. And so, you know, like what other show—I mean, I know there are other shows where you have two strong female leads, but like that also like two strong female triple threats. And it was built for them like the numbers were built for them. So it just kind of is this vehicle. And if you have someone in it that can really kill it, then it's unbelievable.

[1:52:03] Joe Carroll: Right. I didn't answer your question at all because I was just like all of them.

[1:52:08] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. No, no. That's a completely acceptable. I was going to say even like even songs like "Funny Honey" and the songs that don't have the same kind of a huge magnitude to them also are just iconic songs.

[1:52:23] Joe Carroll: Yeah. And "Me and My Baby." I forgot about that. That, you know. Yeah. So it's I that number two is because it's interesting because like I said, the dancers in it, the Velma and Roxy, they just have to be solid. And, you know, because it's like Velma. And it's interesting because they always stunt cast Roxy, but they don't stunt cast Velma.

[1:52:47] Dan Tracy: Right. Oh, that's a good point.

[1:52:49] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it's it's. But it doesn't mean that because Roxy has Roxy where she does, you know, the monologue and the Roxy's that I've seen because I haven't seen a lot. The Roxy's I've seen weren't like movie stars. They were, you know, it was like Charlotte or Dileese Cromie or Belle Calloway. But they all like you see someone that can really dance and do that monologuing. It's literally like they're just gliding across the stage. But then they got to do "Me and My Baby" where that is an athletic number. And it's, you know, you just got to have got to have chops.

[1:53:22] Dan Tracy: And watching "Hot Honey Rag," I wasn't sure if there was a body double happening. It's very clear that it's Catherine Zeta-Jones. Oh, but Renee Zellweger kind of was that Catherine Zeta-Jones was pregnant during the movie. So they did not for the dancing. They didn't use a body double for dancing, but certain shots. She has a body double in there.

[1:53:40] Joe Carroll: That's really interesting, because I actually thought that it looked like Renee Zellweger had a body double in "Hot Honey Rag," which is probably not true. It may have just been like my eyes deceiving me. But I was like, wait a second. Is that because that is also super hard.

[1:53:53] Dan Tracy: You're probably watching it like with a little pessimism as a guy who likes musicals. You're like, well, she's not she can't do that. She can't do that. Really? She's a movie star. But like, you know.

[1:54:03] Joe Carroll: No, no, listen, totally, totally. That's a good point, because Velma has to just I mean, there are some numbers. I mean, and like "I Can't Do It Alone." Yeah, "I Can't Do It Alone" is just is just unbelievable. And I remember all of these works so well in the movie, but that, you know, being able to truly jump from, you know, one of my favorite lyrics and what we're going to this is kind of the next section is, is when the band leader gets up and, you know, Taye Diggs now Miss Velma Kelly in an act of desperation. And that's OK. So the point of this song is, you know, to get, you know, to get Roxy, you know, on her side and to have it be a double act or whatever. It's just it's so perfect. And then she jumps into the hardest number in the whole show. And Roxy just sits there and watches.

[1:54:52] Dan Tracy: Famous motifs. I think that the I think that "All That Jazz" might be the one of the most.

[1:55:02] Dan Tracy: I think that, I mean, we could talk about musical motifs or whatever, but I think that "All That Jazz" is used in conversation constantly. And I think it's Chicago's fault. I mean, I don't know necessarily, but I think that it's such a mainstream thing. Oh yeah, and "All That Jazz." Yeah, we'll talk about "All That Jazz," whatever.

[1:55:22] Joe Carroll: Yeah. You know, I don't think that people were saying that with such regularity until... Do you think I'm off base with that? I don't know.

[1:55:30] Dan Tracy: No, I agree. What about lyrics? I was gonna highlight some lyrics in "All That Jazz."

[1:55:38] Joe Carroll: Show her where to park her girdle. Hold her mother's bloody girdle. Does she hear her baby's squeal? For all that jazz.

[1:55:57] Dan Tracy: We've been covering a lot of different kinds of shows. This is a concept musical. So the lyrics of these songs don't fully further the story in the same way that a lot of the Howard Ashman songs do. However, they still do further the story in some thematic way or in some emotional way. The one that really, you can see a drastic change all the way through is "Funny Honey."

[1:56:22] Joe Carroll: For her first number, Miss Roxy Hart would like to sing a song of love and devotion dedicated to her dear husband, Amos.

[1:56:30] Dan Tracy: Sometimes I'm right. Sometimes I'm wrong. But he doesn't care. He loves me so. That funny honey of mine.

[1:56:53] Joe Carroll: Now he's shot off his trap. I can't stand that stuff. Look at him go. Rattin' on me with just one more brain. What a hot witty bee. If they string me up, well I know who popped the trine.

[1:57:17] Dan Tracy: Lucy! Thought you could pull the wool over my eyes, huh? I wasn't born yesterday. I'll tell you, there's some things I'm made of just can't keep. And this time she put me too far. Now I'm a sibling. Boy, what a sap I was.

[1:57:31] Joe Carroll: It's a different song style, but they're still accomplishing it with staging and with a thematic push, if nothing else.

[1:57:42] Dan Tracy: It's so unique, just the storytelling style, too. Like I've never seen anything. There's nothing else like it, you know?

[1:57:50] Joe Carroll: Yeah, they did such a good job of integrating the concept of this is vaudeville into every element of it. So it's like the way that the songs are constructed, the way that the songs are performed and staged and executed, while also kind of staying true to the thematic ideas that are just in the story, which is, you know, about celebrity and fame and fortune.

[1:58:13] Dan Tracy: It's like the perfect vehicle for those ideas because everybody during that time was trying to get rich quick in the vaudeville scene.

[1:58:21] Joe Carroll: I think for me, my favorite, not lyric, but just moment, is the end. It's like you got Roxy gets off and then it's like her alone and it's moving on and she's not that celebrity and then her going into "Nowadays" and singing that and it being so, like, the sting of that.

[1:58:40] Dan Tracy: Okay, you bait the jazz, let's pick up the pace. Let's make the parties longer. Let's make the skirts shorter. Let's all go to hell in a fast car and keep it hot.

[1:59:10] Joe Carroll: And then it going into them now, like making lemon. Yeah. And like, you know, that whole segment and just I don't know. And just that moment for her, too. I really like like I like just that on her journey and then going into that. And it's just kind of you just see like she's just on this roller coaster the whole time and then it gets and that happens. And then she's like alone.

[1:59:34] Dan Tracy: Yeah, that scene is so good in the courthouse when they, you know, she gets off and then there's another murder outside and everybody runs outside and they see her innocent newspaper getting stomped on, like just that image is so perfect to show what she's going through. And then little Amos just sitting there in the corner, just such a sad sack. Such a good part of the movie.

[1:59:58] Joe Carroll: It's such a great number. You're so right. Songs we must know. Well, we've covered all of them, but I think you got to know "All That Jazz." I think that "Razzle Dazzle" is a must. And then I thought we didn't talk about was sorry, Joe. The one we didn't talk about was "When You're Good to Mama."

[2:00:21] Dan Tracy: Yeah. And honestly, I can't see anybody else doing that. But Queen Latifah now like. I mean, I worked with Roz Ryan. Roz is a legend. Roz was one of the among other things, one of the voices of the Muse, one of the muses in Hercules. We did a production of.

[2:00:41] Joe Carroll: Oh, God. Because of "When Dixie." Right. They're turning that new musical. We did that together. She's she's a legend. I would have loved to see her do it. But like that Queen Latifah is Mama Morton is just it's interesting. Tyler mentioned that all of the characters were based off of vaudeville performers and Mama Morton was supposed to be Sophie Tucker.

[2:01:05] Dan Tracy: That's right. That's right. I read that.

[2:01:07] Joe Carroll: When you watch Queen Latifah, you're like, oh, it's just Pearl Bailey.

[2:01:10] Dan Tracy: Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, which like if they were to make a Pearl Bailey biopic, you have to cast Latifah and they have that same air and performance style. And Queen Latifah has made that she's like the second coming of Pearl Bailey.

[2:01:23] Joe Carroll: It would have been interesting to see. Because, you know, Bebe Neuwirth played her, too. Bebe Neuwirth and Aubrey. That's something I would have been interested to see that. Her interpretation of that.

[2:01:37] Dan Tracy: Yeah, that's right. That's really. Yeah. But I think the songs, too, with this, like you have to watch them, too. Like, I mean, it's just kind of that combination, like watching, you know, "Hot Honey Rag" is just it's just I mean, there's not a lot of, you know, but that that do do do do do do do do do do like that shit is iconic.

[2:01:53] Joe Carroll: So but you got to watch you got to watch him dance it. You know what I mean? So like I'd say if you're going to put on your headphones, you can listen to 99 percent of these. But like you got to, you know, thank God for YouTube. Thank God for Rob Marshall.

[2:02:07] Dan Tracy: All right. Let's wrap this up. Let's talk about some aging. What do we think? How how is everything holding up? Well, this was really fun because like we talked about it earlier, the in the age of people more obsessed than ever with true crime celebrity did like it's the same.

[2:02:23] Joe Carroll: Shit. We're watching more true crime documentaries than ever. You know, you're OJ from OJ to Casey Anthony to 10 parts on Jeffrey fucking Epstein. Like, it's still happening. And, you know, it just feels wildly timely. And then also the worst of it is that when when Billy Flynn, I felt watching it this morning, when Billy Flynn says these idiot reporters, there's still the war on the press.

[2:02:50] Dan Tracy: So like it's just which is obviously more present than ever. And so to me, it's just like wildly holds up the other thing with this. And I don't know about it aging well or not, but like, you know, in the 20s, they had there was this kind of like fascination with like pretty women committing crimes and getting they would get away with it.

[2:03:12] Joe Carroll: Like, and it was pretty women. And so like now it's still like, you know, the the celebrity aspect of of it in pop culture, but also like not the vanity of it all. But like, you know, pretty people like get get away with it. You know, that was something like you had to be pretty, apparently, at the 20s or you wouldn't, you know, wouldn't get away.

[2:03:38] Dan Tracy: Right, right, right. Pretty enough for the front page or whatever.

[2:03:41] Joe Carroll: Yeah, right. It's one of those things where you when I was a kid watching this movie, I didn't understand the fundamentals of our justice system.

[2:03:51] Dan Tracy: And what hits too hard is watching her get off because it's a jury of men and who thinks she's beautiful and how there are centuries of American history where people just got off because some group of people decided that they were innocent or not.

[2:04:08] Joe Carroll: It's the same kind of thematic thing that hits when you watch "To Kill a Mockingbird." Right. And you're just like, oh, man, you know, if the world were just a different place, then like, you know, it just makes you reflect on what the justice system actually is and how it is really a disaster.

[2:04:25] Dan Tracy: And that's that hits really hard for me watching this movie, which it's an intelligent choice, but it still hits really hard right now.

[2:04:34] Joe Carroll: Yeah. With all of the banks committing crimes and not being persecuted for them and all of that kind of political stuff and.

[2:04:42] Dan Tracy: Yeah, it's time it's almost timeless in that. Exactly.

[2:04:46] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Yeah. But then we get the "Hot Honey Rag."

[2:04:50] Dan Tracy: That's right. So the minute you know, it's like one of those like great musical theater devices where like everybody leaves happy, like you're like, oh, yeah. And then you like sit down for a drink and you're like, oh, shit. That's what I was, you know, like, yeah, totally. But you leave happy, which I think is like the, you know, sort of the greatest trick.

[2:05:07] Joe Carroll: You reminded me of the thing that I think that age the worst from the movie is when they come out in "Hot Honey Rag" with the toy Tommy guns.

[2:05:15] Dan Tracy: Yeah. And they wave the Tommy guns around like, ha, ha. Look at us with our guns. That's just not something that they would do nowadays.

[2:05:23] Joe Carroll: Right. The way firearms are handled and and on stage now are it's something that we have to pay a lot of attention to. It was something that was really weird when I was working on "Gun and Powder." That's something that I don't think they would do nowadays.

[2:05:37] Dan Tracy: Even just 15 years later.

[2:05:39] Joe Carroll: Yeah, totally. Well, one thing just to wrap up, I want to see Tyler Hanes in Chicago. Can we get that happening at some point? I mean, I'm sure. Have you ever been have you ever had the offer? People have to have asked you to do.

[2:05:50] Tyler Hanes: I well, I did the. When I was doing "Boy From Oz" right after it opened, I had the opportunity to join the company.

[2:06:00] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I didn't because I was just like riding the "Boy From Oz" train.

[2:06:03] Tyler Hanes: Right. And yeah, I mean, I would like to. I want to my buddy Nick Adams and I want to do like a guy version of it where we.

[2:06:18] Joe Carroll: Oh, fun.

[2:06:19] Tyler Hanes: And do that.

[2:06:20] Joe Carroll: Have you ever done like like like "Cell Block Tango"? Have they ever done "Cell Block Tango" as like a like a, you know, like the miscast cabaret or anything?

[2:06:29] Tyler Hanes: They have. They've done a couple of versions. There was like a version with like Jeremy Jordan and Walter Bobby was in it. And I think Leslie Odom Jr. And that they did that version of it, which I think was the revival choreography and whatnot for like a miscast thing.

[2:06:42] Joe Carroll: And then they did another version where it was like like Ryan Steele and yeah, like a couple other people. And it was a lot more like dancey, more.

[2:06:50] Tyler Hanes: Yeah, I mean that. But I think that like, you know, they both work. They're both fun. But no, I would love to. I mean, for me, I just want to like I'm glad I got to like for in some weird meta world play Billy Flynn in the production of Chicago.

[2:07:07] Joe Carroll: Right. You know, but I would love to.

[2:07:09] Tyler Hanes: Yeah. You know.

[2:07:10] Joe Carroll: Yeah. You're right for it right now, too. Like I mean, like right. You are like you are the perfect Billy Flynn right now.

[2:07:20] Tyler Hanes: Well, and it's only going to get more perfect. Exactly.

[2:07:23] Joe Carroll: I mean, that's that's Chicago's the show that like got me in the musical theater. So I, you know, at some point would love to just have that on my resume. I don't care where it's where it's at.

[2:07:34] Dan Tracy: Well, this was this was so much fun. I what I'm going to take away from this is your face watching you talk about the "Cell Block Tango" when we got to that. That was my favorite part of this interview. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us.

[2:07:47] Tyler Hanes: Thanks for having me. This was great. This was let me geek out over Chicago.

[2:08:13] Joe Carroll: So sorry. Long as you keep them way off balance, how can they spot you got no talents? Razzle dazzle. Razzle dazzle.

[2:08:32] Dan Tracy: Thank you for listening to Guys Who Like Musicals.

[2:08:59] Dan Tracy: We are produced by Dan Tracy and Joe Carroll, your hosts. You can find us on Instagram at Guys Who Like Musicals or on Twitter at Musical Guys. For more information about us or our show, please visit our new website at guyswholikemusicals.com. You can find our merch store, our Patreon page and more. Thanks for listening.