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[0:00] Laura Bell Bundy: Hey guys, welcome to Women of Tomorrow. Today we have a special guest. Daphne Delvaux is an award-winning trial attorney and founder of Delvaux Law, a firm devoted to women's rights at work. In her work as a trial attorney, Daphne has recovered countless six and seven figure settlements and verdicts on behalf of clients, obtaining the monetary justice her clients deserved while restoring their sense of dignity and self-worth. Daphne is routinely seen as the expert on women's workplace rights, pregnancy and postpartum discrimination, as well as maternity leave regulations. She has been recognized by major news outlets, both nationally and internationally, as a leader of the women's rights movement and has received the award of Outstanding Trial Lawyer, winning an equal pay trial.

Daphne is also the creator of the Mam Attorney Academy, a platform on a mission to educate women on their rights at work and teach them how to advocate for their needs so they can receive more money and time, freedom without sacrificing their career goals. Girl, you are doing the work. I'm in the trenches. You are in the trenches for us and we are so grateful. And of course, I found you via our president of our board who follows you on Instagram and kept sending me all of your posts, which I found were so fascinating. And also comforting because you were giving information and bits about what rights that we had legally, which I didn't even know we had. Right. And so I wanted to talk to you today about that, about us getting clear on what our challenges are, what our rights are, how we can advocate for ourselves and how you can help us do that.

[2:18] Laura Bell Bundy: So first of all, I want to ask you, when you became a lawyer, did you think that you would be doing women's rights work?

[2:22] Daphne Delvaux: Well, you know, the journey to being a lawyer was riddled with experiences where I'm confronted with workplace injustice. But at the time, it just felt like that's just how it is to work as a woman, you know, like sexual harassment, not being paid as much as a man, really being put through it when I was pregnant. So before I was a lawyer, and even when I was a lawyer, I was experiencing some of these things myself. And it was just over time when I started to educate myself that I learned, okay, this is actually illegal. And I think we have so normalized a lot of these things that as just the way it is as a woman in the workplace, we're so used to kind of brushing off like an insensitive joke, or we don't want to rock the boat.

And we're really then often blaming ourselves for being too sensitive. And I think what I want to offer women is that it's not true. Like we're not being too sensitive. It's not in your head. It was something that was problematic that everyone ignored. Because what we're seeing kind of generally in the workplace is that we have to be really tough, you know, to succeed, we have to be strong and tough and have thick skin and not necessarily share what you're feeling or what you're thinking. So when I became a lawyer, I was really using my own experiences to draw from. And then when I started to share my story, I started to see my story resonate with all women and all mothers. And they were saying, Oh, that happened to me.

And I also felt really powerless in the situation. And what I'm trying to do online is kind of marry my skill as an attorney and my knowledge in employment law with technology where we can truly educate thousands, millions of women and workers, just with one click, which in a way, you know, we haven't really seen that before. When it comes to workplace advocacy and education, no one's going to teach you what your rights are, you know, your employer really has no reason to teach you that why would they? It would be against their own interests. No one expects employers to do that. I mean, the whole goal of a company is to thrive within capitalism. And having educated and empowered workers doesn't really, you know, sometimes it's not aligned, you know, there can be friction when it comes to what the employees need and what the employers need, what the employers need is as much production and presence and commitment as possible.

So when you are then confronted with personal challenges, like bonding or healing or caretaking, or needing more money, you're then actually in a legal situation with your employer, whether you like it or not. So a lot of women are in these legal situations with their employers, but also do not have the tools to really thrive and also get their needs met. And instead, what we see is that there's a lot of complaining about it's so hard, it's so terrible. But then what, you know, other than activating our nervous system, what are we doing with just getting angry online? So what really what I've been really trying to do is come in and say, we are not as powerless as we think. Obviously, there's a lot more things we have to do on the policy level.

But you do have rights, and we have to also use them, we can't be scared to use our rights, and have our needs met at work. So that's really my goal is to empower women, educate women, so that they feel like they can self-advocate in the workplace without sacrificing their career goals.

[6:10] Laura Bell Bundy: Yes. So what are the most common challenges you see for women in the workplace?

[6:16] Daphne Delvaux: So I would say the first one is a mindset issue. It's that the woman feels like she's not deserving or worthy of a workplace that respects her rights. And in response, she will absorb a lot of stress, and let a lot of things slide that are really not okay. And just because everyone makes, you know, acts like it's okay, doesn't make it okay. The law is there to protect us against toxic or demanding or abusive workplaces and bosses. So the main thing that I see is a lot of guilt, a lot of shame when it comes to workplace advocacy, this feeling of like, you know, I'm so lucky to have a job, it could be so much worse. So the first thing we actually have to do is kind of untangle that mindset, and remind women that they are worthy of a workplace that respects their rights, and that respects their talents and their value and their needs.

Like that's something, it's your birthright, it's something that you have to stand really firm in. And sometimes it's a matter of educating your employer, they may not even know what your rights are, because employment law is not something that a lot of employers are kind of checking in on day to day, especially when it comes to maternal rights, or it's just a general lack of knowledge. So the first issue that I see is a lack of confidence. The second issue that I see is a lack of awareness, where there's so many transgressions happening on the daily, and women just brush it off as like how things are, but truly, they are illegal and actionable. And there's something you can do about it, you can either report it, or you can talk to an expert and see just like, what is the process here for when my rights are being violated, you know, when someone actually breaks the law, and I'm damaged, or I have suffered or harmed because of these violations, what is the process here.

So there's a lot of education that needs to happen on like what the rights are, and then also having the confidence to actually use your rights, which can feel really scary. Obviously, when we're talking about the workplace, when we are thinking of our income and our health care, it can be really scary to go against those people that are paying you that are also paying your health care, making sure you can go to your prenatal appointments and your postpartum appointments. So there's an incredible sense of fear there, which is justified, you know, obviously, I represent women all the time that get fired for standing up for their rights. So there's a lot of just unpacking of fear we have to do.

And then also just educating their employers. So when once you're educated, you often have to educate your own employer on what the rights are and what the law actually says. I often send my clients to their employers like with actual regulations in their hand that they highlight, like, look, this is what the law says. And the employers are often like, wow, I just had no idea. So there's just a lot of education and empowerment that needs to happen in the workplace, where I see this a lot is equal pay. So equal pay is something that impacts everyone. And, you know, like, statistically, women are just being underpaid. Something that's really important for women to know is that they have the right to speak about their wages at work, there's kind of this notion that it's unprofessional, there may even be a policy that says, we don't talk about our wages.

And that policy really only protects the employer, we are all allowed to ask what our pay, what each other's pay is, how much we're being paid. And then when we notice, okay, the men are being paid more than the women, we have the right to report that and also be paid fairly and not be retaliated against. You know, I would say the first thing women confront in the workplace is often something about pay. In terms of general issues that all women experience where something just doesn't feel right. And Joe who's doing less work is getting paid more. And another thing women need to know is that Joe doesn't actually need to have the same title, Joe could have a totally different title, but be doing the same work or even lesser work.

So just looking out for your income, and protecting your salary is really, really important. A lot of women just don't know that they have rights in that context. I would say that's the first big one that I see. And then I see a lot of issues during the motherhood transition, because that's when women are really confronted with their rights in a really acute way.

[10:36] Laura Bell Bundy: Can you give some examples of that?

[10:41] Daphne Delvaux: Yeah, so motherhood is like, it's tough, because motherhood comes to us, usually when our career is in the upswing, like after usually about a decade of paying your dues and just doing grunt work and just kind of dealing with it. And then we have the fertile window, which usually coincides with the time in your life and your career that you're finally like getting to a point of like, God, I'm making it, you know, like all of this hard work paid off and, and then you're confronted with motherhood. And there's going to be this friction of like, Oh, my God, like, do I keep going at this pace? Or do I need to like, almost demote myself and take a step back. And it is a very hard decision, because your career in a way is your baby too, you know, and I think we can, we can be really, we can stand really firm in that and have pride in that that we've worked really hard to get to a certain point.

But then when you have an actual baby, and you have your career baby, they're competing for your interest. The mom is feeling really just almost annihilated, because her needs become irrelevant between the baby and, and the career. So that is a place where I just see so many issues. What I see a lot is the mom truly sacrificing herself on both ends. And I see her sacrifice herself to her job, because she feels like, I cannot be that mom. That is that stereotype of, Oh, I'm frazzled, and I'm a hot mess. And I'm hormonal, you know, I can't be that mom. And then at home, I can be that mom that's not there for her baby and misses all the milestones, and isn't there to rock the baby at night.

[12:14] Daphne Delvaux: Has to like stop breastfeeding because I'm too stressed out and I'm always at work. So, the mom just feels like, oh my God, this is an impossible puzzle to solve. And I think what I want to say about that is that it is, honestly. It is an impossible situation to solve. There's no real solution to it because unfortunately, our workplaces expect us to kind of work through having babies, which is so unfair because we're doing this life-giving work of creating the next generation of builders and teachers and doctors, and we're also being punished for it. So, it's like double whammy of betrayal because not only do we have to do a great job as a mom, we also have to do a great job as an employee. And we're fighting in the workplace this bias that cuts against us having babies where this assumption is immediately made, oh, you care less now.

You're less committed. You're less devoted. You just want to be home and breastfeed. So, all of these assumptions are made about women when they become pregnant. But at the same time, you still exist. Your career is still important. You've worked really hard. So, the issues that I see is a mom completely sacrificing herself, working through what can be really dangerous physical conditions, working through high-risk pregnancy, not taking breaks, working through breasts that are engorged that can really cause infections, rushing back to work, still bleeding, just because you have this job to hold on to. Pregnancy and postpartum is a very, very scary time to lose your job. Who's going to hire you?

It's a very difficult position to be in. So, women are kind of forced to hold on to these jobs, and they also feel like they're being betrayed by their employer because their employer may not be supporting them in the way that they need to. I mean, very rarely they do. So, what do you do when you're just in this total overwhelming storm of there's so many responsibilities and needs, and I can't even go to the bathroom? I have no time to pee, and I'm not drinking water, and I'm not feeding myself. So, that's where I come in. When you're in that place of like, I don't know what to do, that's where I meet you. So, essentially, first, you have to understand the rules of pregnancy discrimination, and you have to understand how common it is sadly, and you have to understand that even in a great workplace, when you announce your pregnancy, your boss may be really happy for you, like as a human, like human to human, sometimes woman to woman, sometimes mom to mom, but they're going to feel conflicted because the workplace in America never stops, and they have to fill this absence, this upcoming absence, so you become this ticking time bomb for them where suddenly they have less staffing to meet certain projects.

So, they may not say something to you that is discriminatory or insensitive, but you might start to feel it, especially coming close to your due date. So, what I advise moms to do is give notice of their pregnancy as soon as they're comfortable with, because it allows the employer more time to plan. There's kind of this assumption that we should wait, and my advice is to go against that. You actually want to tell your employer soon, because then you give them a lot of time to plan for your absence, which is going to prevent discrimination. If something just happened due to pregnancy, you're going to want to take time off for that too, and you can actually take time off under disability rights, which a lot of women don't know.

It doesn't also depend on if your employer is ethical and has been treating you right, because if you're in a situation where you're afraid of being fired when they find out you're pregnant, then wouldn't you have to hide it for as long as possible? Well, they're going to have to find out someday. No, totally. Yeah, so you're going to have to tell them at one point, and if you're waiting to announce, it's going to increase the chances of being fired, because they're going to feel like you're not transparent, and they're going to feel like you're not giving them enough of a window to plan for your absence. It's really hard for an employer when they're given a couple of weeks, and I see this now with the Zoom remote jobs where women are hiding pregnancy, and then they give their employer a very short window of time to plan for their absence.

Which increases the chances of being fired, because they're going to say that was crazy, and she may have other babies and do this again. So my advice is always to give notice of your pregnancy as soon as you're comfortable, because also it will put you in a protected class as a pregnant woman, and then you are entitled to certain accommodation rights, pregnancy discrimination rights. When your employer doesn't know you're pregnant, and then you get fired, there's nothing you can do, because they didn't know you're pregnant. And then you're like, but hold on, you just fired a pregnant woman, and they're going to say you've no proof of that. So you always want to tell them, tell them in writing, and also commit to returning.

It's sad we have to do that, but we have to tell our employers, I'm really excited. I've always seen myself as a working mom. So that's step one. Then what you want to do when you're pregnant too, or even during fertility treatments, or when you're thinking about pregnancy, is start to research your maternity leave rights. Maternity leave is a very strange concept in the US. There's kind of this assumption that we have none, and that's not necessarily true. We have a very terrible system when it comes to maternity leave. It is very flawed. It is very complex. It is very messy, but there is a system. What's very confusing about maternity leave is that that concept doesn't exist in the law. It is something we say socially, but it's not a right.

The only right we have for time off after birth is disability leave and bonding leave. Some women can take both, and some women can take either. It kind of depends on where you work, how long you work there, how big the employer is, and how many hours a week you work, whether you're part-time or more. So what I want to say about maternity leave is that first, don't assume you have none. When you go to your employer and you ask for maternity leave, that's the wrong question because it doesn't exist. Maternity leave is not a right you have. We have to ask for disability leave and bonding leave. So there's these super technical nuances in the law that women just don't know because they've never been educated on it.

So if you go to your boss and you ask for maternity leave and then they say they have none, that's technically true. But if you ask for disability leave or bonding leave, they have to give you accurate information because those are the correct term for you. Now, what you need to know about your leave rights is that they're very, very location-specific. Those of you who are in progressive states, you can assume that you have a leave law package that no one ever explained to you. And when you are in a conservative state, you have to assume you have a very kind of barren leave right. But I can't sit here today and tell you the state of maternity leave in America because I would have to go state by state.

So that's something that I'm really trying to combat because we're talking about leave and everyone's talking about America doesn't have leave, and it's really not as simple. The maternity leave system in the U.S. is state by state. So, for example, in California, where I am currently, women can take seven months of maternity leave with six months paid. In Massachusetts, it's like six months. So there's all of these state programs that women aren't using because they don't know and they assume they have no rights. So there's millions of women that are just not using these rights because of the kind of the misinformation in the context of maternity leave. So that's something really important to understand when you are planning for maternity leave.

And it's also something you need to understand when you're planning out your career, because sometimes you can lose these benefits when you move to another state or you can lose the benefits when you move to another job. So it's something I cover in my program so that you can find specifically the information you're entitled to. What a lot of the employers do, especially with remote work, is they will provide information about kind of the federal minimum, but they don't actually give you your state rights. So that's something sometimes you have to educate yourself on. So that's the thing about maternity leave. I think maternity leave, what I really want people to understand is that it is way more complicated than just we have not.

Then returning to work, that's when I see most of the discrimination. The discrimination that happens during pregnancy, I see it too, but it is quite rare because it's just kind of stupid. Employers generally know that when a woman is pregnant, you want to be a little bit careful. But when a woman returns to work from leave, that's often when they get a little bit bold. And sometimes the sentiment by an employer is like, well, we've done enough for you. We've been so generous. And now you need to get back to it. And the pressure is on. And she has to work like almost double to like catch up for the work she didn't do. And that's where that's fertile ground for discrimination. Women are also protected from retaliation after maternity leave.

And that's also something a lot of women do not know. If you are returned from leave, and you're put into like a lesser job, let's say your boss is like, you know, Joe is doing your job, the clients like him. And it's just easier for you to do this job now. And they put you in some sort of admin job when you were a manager, like that's illegal, you actually have to be returned to your exact same job, even if it is uncomfortable and difficult for the staff and the employees and the clients, like it doesn't matter that the clients don't want to move back to Lisa, like that legally, Lisa has to receive her clients back or her projects, because she has a reinstatement right. So sometimes we see this shuffling during a maternity leave.

And that's fine. But then when the woman comes back, everything has to be reshuffled as if she did not go on leave. And I see just so many issues there. Because women do not know that they are entitled to their job back their exact job when they return from leave. And instead, they're just like, you know what, I chose to have a baby. So I guess that's I'll just bury these, I'll just bear the consequences of that decision. You know, when we're talking about also, you know, that this time that you've been on, quote, unquote, disability, and bonding time, and you come back? This is just a general question, because I this happened to someone else that I know is that they're they went on disability for health reasons that had nothing to do with having a child.

And when they came back, they did not have the same clients that they were servicing. So that was technically illegal, correct? Yes. Okay. Yeah, I'm curious, because so if you're, so if you're on disability in any way, whether or not you have been carrying a child, and, and you're now postpartum, if you're not, and you leave, leave on disability, and your job has changed, when you return to your job, that is illegal, right? So leave rights are a protective right. And what that means is that there cannot be modifications to your job, because you use that right, as long as the leave right is protected, and you're not exceeding the time you're allotted. But when you return from any leave, right, whether it is for medical treatment for yourself, whether it is for caretaking, for bonding, for healing, you have to be returned to your job.

And that's what it means to have a protected leave, right? It means that it doesn't impact your job that you're out of the workforce for a period of time, where you're not working, but then you come back, and you come back to your job. And it's to encourage it's to disincentivize employees from taking these leaves. It's what, let me say that again, these rules are put in place to disincentivize punishment, and to incentivize employees from taking these for taking these leaves and to make sure that they feel comfortable knowing that the taking the time will not impact their jobs. That's why the rules were put in place. Otherwise, a lot of us wouldn't take these leaves, because we're just going to say, well, I worked really hard to get to this point, and then I'll come back and I'm just going to be

[24:30] Daphne Delvaux: I would say the most common issue I see in my job is women being replaced by a man during leave and then coming back to either no job or it's just some kind of nonsense bullshit job. Are men able to take these same leaves for parental leave so they could also use the same disability and bonding that's available to them too? No, men can take bonding leave, not disability leave. Disabilities would be for the birthing parent healing, but they can take bonding leave, which is usually 12 weeks, and in the state of California, that's eight weeks paid. Other progressive states also have paid programs for men. They're not taking it though, but they can. A lot of men just don't know or are scared to use it, and the rules are the same with men.

I have a couple of dad cases where the men take paternity leave and then are punished. There's comments like, "Oh, when I was a dad, I just took like five days or five hours. So what are you doing? This generation of dads is so soft." The dads are having their moment and their movement when they're trying to wrestle with what is providing for me. Does it mean being at work and sacrificing your time with your kids? Does it mean being present and putting your job on hold? They're in their own rumble too. I really love the dads that are taking the time, and it is protected time. I have represented dads who, after they took paternity leave, were either demoted or let go because there's often this feeling towards like, "Oh, if you're not going to be here, then why don't you just stay at home with your baby because clearly that's where your loyalty lies."

So this is a very interesting movement and also a very interesting legal issue right now because it's truly when we support dads that we actually support moms too, right? Like when the dads are taking the time off, then the mom can have more support. Sometimes what I do with my clients is I have the dad take some time off when the mom returns to work so that she, during that time that's really vulnerable, feels comforted that the baby's with a parent. And then also you extend daycare costs or nanny costs because you have the baby with the parents at home for a longer period of time. For example, in California, like if as a birth mom, you take seven months and then the dad takes 12 weeks, that baby's home for 10 months with a parent.

You can stack your leaves with building blocks so that you are actually extending the time that that baby is with a parent. So dads have rights too, men too. But when it comes to the postpartum context, moms do kind of bear the brunt of it because they take longer leaves and they have to take the time. Dads have the choice, and often they choose wrong, but they have the choice in the way that women don't. So returning to work, make sure you have your job back, and then it's not over yet, right? Because if you're breastfeeding, you need to talk about pumping rights. That's where I also see a lot of the issues because by that point, the women often feel like, "You know what, I can't go in and keep asking for more accommodations.

Like I've already asked for a lot," and they start to feel really guilty. That's when I come in and say, "No, the law protects you now too." It doesn't matter if you took a long leave or a full leave, or it doesn't matter if you needed pregnancy accommodations, you are still protected. The employer is not allowed to say, "You know what, we've followed the law enough, but now this is enough." The employer still has to also accommodate postpartum moms too. During the postpartum period is when most moms quit. There's actually a lot of rights that women have that they don't know. For example, if you're experiencing postpartum anxiety or postpartum depression, you can actually go on a leave for that too, which is separate from your child, from your bonding leave or your birth healing leave.

You can actually often go back on leave if you feel overwhelmed. Again, that's a protected leave. You can also ask for pumping accommodations, which you have to be provided time and the space to pump. The space has to be private. There's just a lot of really cool things you can do with the law in that first year postpartum. Two rights are about to go into effect: the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, which is a federal law, will go into effect June 28, 2023, and then the Pump Act just went into effect in April. These laws harmonize the state of the postpartum rights, where they were pretty barren before, and now they're definitely more comprehensive. These were already rights in progressive states, but now they are more harmonized, and we can access them on the national level.

These are really, really good rights to know. In fact, if you go into your HR's office, they may not even know that. One last thing I will say about HR is that you cannot assume HR knows your rights, and you cannot assume that they have your best interests at heart. HR truly, you know, it's a tough job because they're paid by the company, but they also have to ensure compliance with the law, which is a hard thing to do. This is my job, and I'm in this field every day. When it comes to following and tracking employment laws, there are very few HR professionals who are able to do that. They're also not legally trained. So when we're speaking about HR, which we're kind of always assuming HR is there for us, I just want to tell women to take a breath and first do their research, set up their own plan, and then go to HR with an actual plan.

Instead of asking HR, who's your employer, "Hey, what should I do?" HR is going to tell you what's in the employer's best interests. I mean, that's just because they're being paid by them. They're not going to go against the people that pay them. Just keeping in mind that HR is an extension of your employer. It's often presented to the employee as a bridge, but I kind of, I don't really see that. I see HR usually act in the best interest of the employer or sometimes provide inaccurate information, incomplete information, wrong information. Then the burden is back on the employee to figure out their own rights. So just when it comes to HR, you don't want to assume that you can trust them, I think is what we want to say.

[30:50] Laura Bell Bundy: I just want some clarity on, you know, in these progressive states, when we are getting our, would it be called, would it be FMLA? Is that?

[31:03] Daphne Delvaux: So it depends. Again, this is one of those, I hate saying it depends on the lawyer, but FMLA is the federal minimum. The way it works with leave laws is that FMLA is a federal right all American employees have. But then in those progressive states, there's usually other types of leaves that are more generous. Those are the ones that you want to ask for, and they have different names. Every state that has a program like that will have a leave law that has a different name. You want to then actually ask for that law, not necessarily for FMLA, because FMLA is going to give you less than the state law provides. That's where the law gets so complicated. It's annoying because it's like, why do I have to figure this out?

Like, I'm pregnant, I have morning sickness, and now I have to somehow have a PhD in the law to like, that's really unfair. I just want to validate that because it is. So if you are, are you going to your employer to ask them for these things? Or are you going to your state? Like you would for unemployment?

[32:05] Daphne Delvaux: Yeah, that's a really good question because I see a lot of issues here. You have to ask all of your leave rights to your employer. You have to send an email to them and then say, "I understand that I'm entitled to this leave, right? This is the start of my leave. This is when I expect to return." Then they have to confirm that, and that's going to be an email you send to your employer. The employer has to give you your leave, right? If you're eligible for it, they're not allowed to say, "Sorry, we can't do that. That's a busy quarter. We have a ton of KPIs." They have to give it to you even if they don't like it, even if it's a burden on them. You ask your employer for the time off. Now when it comes to benefits, that's actually a really good conversation to have.

Because when it comes to getting paid during a leave, that's a whole other question. An employer does not have an obligation to provide payment during a leave. The state program, which is your benefit program, may have some disability payouts or bonding payouts to offset your wage loss. When we're talking about money, that's going to be a question that is going to go to your state, and your state is going to have a website like a benefits website. It's usually the same website where you go for unemployment benefits. That's where you have to submit your claim. Here's where it gets really frustrating. You're dealing with asking things of your employer, which has its own system, and then you're dealing with asking money from the benefit system, which is also its own system.

Then you're dealing with healthcare. You're in the middle of all of these complex systems, and it sucks, right? It's like, oh my God. If you're lucky, your employer may also provide some sort of paid leave benefit, and that's going to be a separate question that you want to ask. You always want to ask for your rights, and then if there's a paid leave benefit, you can ask for that too. But it's not necessarily going to be made easy for you, and it's unfortunately by design. These things are not made easy for you because they are. It's almost like you're deterred from using these benefits.

[34:20] Laura Bell Bundy: One more quick question on this topic. I'm not even sure you know this. We have a lot of our members who are self-employed, and they are self-employed in progressive states. If you're self-employed and you are literally not going to be able to work the same load you have been doing, can you get those benefits, let's say from California, for example, since you're there?

[34:46] Daphne Delvaux: Good question. There are two options. If you're thinking about kids and you're self-employed, I want you to immediately put yourself on payroll and then employ yourself because when you employ yourself as an employee, you can get the benefits. The benefits are only available to those who are employed and paying into the funds, which you can only do as a business owner. You're not paying into it. But if you are an employee of your own corporation, which honestly you all need to do for tax reasons anyway, then you get the benefits. A second option is for those who are independent contractors: you can actually pay into the disability fund, like into an insurance fund separately so that you're paying money into it, knowing that you'll get it back. There are two options, but the best one is to actually employ yourself.

[35:40] Laura Bell Bundy: Okay. That's very helpful to me specifically. Thank you.

[35:43] Shea Carter: My question is from kind of the employer's standpoint. So if you're a small business and we do this thing in Female Fight Club where we try to really think through the issues. One of the issues we talked about last week was like, if everybody should have pay, every business should have to provide paid parental leave, and it should be up to seven months. When you start thinking about what that means and what that entails, you're like, if you're a small business, how would you afford to do something like that without going out of business? We're such female advocates. We want women to start small businesses. Is there a government supplement for a lot of these things so that it's not just you're Walmart or you're nothing or you can't comply?

[36:29] Daphne Delvaux: I love this question because it's funny because now as a small business owner, I'm also in this exploration in a way that when I was just representing employees, I was not so aware of the employer struggle, which I was so used to kind of.

[36:43] Daphne Delvaux: Employers in this way where I was expecting a lot of them. And now that I am an employer and a small business owner, I'm like, okay, it's just like another group of people trying to figure it out. Like we're not all evil, right? So when it comes to small businesses, first thing you want to do is really empower your own staff to find out about their state leave program. Because what I see a lot of businesses do, and it's admirable, but it's kind of unnecessary, is they're offering paid leave programs to people who actually have paid leave through their state benefits. So it's like, that's nice, but actually there's already a system put in place. And now you're just double paying someone because you have to pay someone on leave and then you're paying someone who's also doing the work.

And that's a huge economic impact on a business. I'm actually, and this is going to sound kind of wild, but I'm actually not a proponent of paid leave policies by the employer because I think it all needs to be by the government. I think it has to be public funds because otherwise the employer is paying twice for someone on leave and then someone who's doing the work. And I think that actually increases the chances of discrimination because there's almost this punishment on the employer for the employee taking time off. And when they're not paying, that's like a whole different calculus. And I'm actually seeing that in my case where the employer provides paid leave and then there's this sense of, oh, you should be so grateful.

So for me, in terms of my advocacy work, it's all about those public benefits. I want everyone to have access to public benefits. Minnesota just put a system in place. The states are coming out with it. I think we're at 13 right now. But I want to see this on the national level because that's really how we make sure that these are not just perks that can also be taken away and can also be modified, but they're actual benefits. And when you have a government system in place, the employer can just refer to that instead of having to do that mental work of like, how do we figure this out? I mean, honestly, if you, for example, have an employee in California, in New York, in Minnesota, in Oregon, in Washington, and then one in Arkansas, you're going to be doing a calculation that is different for every state.

It's so complicated. It's so difficult. So what you want to do as an employer is you want to empower and task your employee and say, hey, can you find out how much you're eligible for from your state system when it comes to benefits for disability and bonding? And then you can say, I will supplement your pay to get you to 100%. And then as an employer, you're paying like 20% to 30%, which is a lot more doable than saying, oh, I'm going to fund your leave. But then the employee is actually able to get money from their state. But when you have a lot of employees in conservative states, you're absolutely going to be paying the full 100%. It's a little bit of, again, like we're back to the same issue that every state has different rules.

So it's all going to depend on where they live. It is so ironic that in these same conservative states where they're making you have a baby, they don't give you any sort of help or support compensation wise for your recovery. Yeah. Employment law is very partisan. So it's like pretty much red, blue, that the blue states have like this framework that supports employees. And then the red states have nothing. And it's funny, sometimes people talk about like paid leave being bipartisan. And I'm like, I don't think it is like, oh, the proof is in like, which states actually have it. You know, that's like the only inquiry we have to do. I'm seeing a question by Dr. Emily about remote workers. So the question is, if your company's headquartered in another state, what are the laws that you're going to apply?

And the answer to that is that you're going to apply the laws of the state where you live. So, you know, if your employer is headquartered in Baltimore, and I'm in California, then I'm going to be entitled to California benefits. And a lot of employers are really shocked by that when they have California remote workers, because the system is so different. New York also has like a very comprehensive plan. And so when you have employees who are living in one of those states, expect to have to do a lot more accommodations than when they live in like Mississippi or Louisiana.

[41:01] Laura Bell Bundy: I know I'm feeling very lucky for living in New Jersey. I know that we have paid maternity leave.

[41:03] Daphne Delvaux: Yeah, New Jersey is about six months. Like you can stack these two different types of leaves there. And also it's something people don't know. And they have a payment system. So New Jersey is doing pretty well. They're really high up my list in terms of favorites.

[41:22] Daphne Delvaux: Yeah, like New Jersey, California, New York, okay, could be better. Massachusetts has a really good plan. So those are probably like the best states to live as a parent. I never hear legislators that are running for office talk about this. Like if I heard that my senator in my state was like, trying to get paid maternity leave, why is this not an issue people are like, talking about or running on, you know, sometimes they don't even know, like, they don't even know. I was recently doing work in DC. And my impression is that when it comes to maternity regulations, it is just not something people know. It's Yeah, it's just so complicated. When you were saying you're the disability thing, if you have taken disability for something else, are you then not able to use it again for pregnancy?

So that depends. I hate it. But it depends on where you live. Because sometimes if you're taking FMLA once, like you can only take it once a year. So if you have like a treatment, and then you have a pregnancy right after it's possible that you have less rights, though, in that case, you can also use your accommodation rights sometimes to ask for more time off. So there are ways to get the time. But generally, the rule is that you do have certain, a certain amount of leave time, like for a year. Yeah. So that can definitely impact it in a way that for example, if you need IVF treatments, and you take time off for that, it can cut into time later if you need it to. So wait, you can take off for you can get IVF.

So fertility is considered a disability. I mean, it's kind of sad for me to say, but legally, it's considered a qualifying reason for time off. So you can take time off or appointments, you can take time off for the treatment, you can take time off for recovery.

[43:03] Laura Bell Bundy: Oh, my God. I just missed out on money.

[43:11] Daphne Delvaux: Yeah, probably.

[43:13] Laura Bell Bundy: Okay, this is I'm getting a pause podcast. And they said that menopause, though, was not considered a disability.

[43:19] Daphne Delvaux: That's true. Menopause, just like periods, consider just like being a woman. Endometriosis, that can also be a medical condition. So that's probably a medical condition. But when it comes to period, unless they're so debilitating that you like cannot get off the couch and you need medical care, periods and menopause is considered just being a woman and there's no protections for that pregnancy is really the thing that there's just a like float when you're pregnant, in terms of what your rights are in a way that never you'd never experienced before, there's suddenly all these things that you can ask for time off wise, or just the change to your job change your schedule. And then the law kind of dissipates when around your baby being around one, your laws will kind of your rights will kind of disappear again.

But yeah, menopause, you do want to watch out for like comments about menopause, which can be considered general gender discrimination or gender harassment. But menopause is not a protected condition.

[44:25] Daphne Delvaux: So how do we set ourselves up for success? So you want to educate yourself, and you're probably all thinking like, Oh my god, I'm so confused and overwhelmed and like annoyed. But I have a program where all of your rights are like, explained for state so you don't have to do all of that work of figuring out what you're entitled to. And it includes the script you want to send your employers and also the link to the state programs where you want to get your benefits. So I have all of that in my membership, as well as everything on return to work, what happens if you have part of anxiety or depression, I have fertility, you know, fertility issues. So everything in the realm of women's rights at work, I have that covered.

And then so you want to you want to do your education before you need it, I would say one of my biggest frustrations, sources of frustration, but also sadness is that women reach out to me when they're in this shit. You know, like when they're like, Oh my god, I just had a baby. My boss told me to come back to work tomorrow. What do I do that usually comes because there was like no proactive planning. Like this is truly something you want to sit down and take like a day to educate yourself. Also do it with your partner and do that like when you're starting to think about pregnancy or when you just got pregnant, like not when you're in this shit, and you just had a baby. So, so I would say, really thinking about this proactively getting super strategic, getting all of your email templates ready to go when it comes to like the apps that you need to make. And so that you feel secure about like, okay, this is my plan.

[46:02] Laura Bell Bundy: Yeah. Well, I'm certainly feeling as if I need a membership right now. But yeah, and I know, and I've, I've gone on you and I've talked about your membership, and I've, I've gone online, and it's very, very comprehensive letters to your employer. It's incredible that you've gone state by state that must have taken forever.

[46:17] Daphne Delvaux: Oh my god, forever. And I really want women to use it because it's like, it was a huge, huge time commitment for me. And no one really, it's, this doesn't really exist, not in the way that I did it, because I'm writing it in your best interest. You know, you can find information about your rights, but they're not necessarily created by an ally. You know, they're created by either a neutral source, which is the government, or your employer, which is not going to be in your best interest. Like, where do you go to find the information that really sets yourself up for success? Like, that's, that's what I created. It's also because I needed it. I felt like when I was pregnant, even as an employment lawyer, I'm like, where do I go to find information in a way that I understand it, and also that makes sense. So I actually went straight to the regulations and figured it out myself, and then like, became my own attorney. But now I'm trying to extend that to everyone.

[47:06] Laura Bell Bundy: That's amazing. Get ahead of it, guys. You, and you know what, it seems as if, if you are planning to have a family or continue your family, that this, that having this information and having had this research done on your behalf, could actually provide financial support for you.

[47:30] Daphne Delvaux: Yeah. By knowing what exists for you and getting ahead of it. And so tell everybody how they can find you specifically.

[47:35] Daphne Delvaux: So come find me on Instagram. We have a lot of fun. It's a lot of this kind of content, employment rates, also peppered with empowerment, a lot of complaining about the patriarchy. And, and just some jokes. I talk about my motherhood journey to how much I struggle as a working mom. So come find me there, the mom attorney. And then on my website, I have a blog, the mom attorney, and I also have a website, DelVol Law, which is my law firm. And on both websites, you will find the Mom Attorney Academy signup, which is a membership. And if you're a member of Women of Tomorrow, we have Daphne's profile on our app, as well as in our activism resources, we have links to the Mom Attorney Academy and some of your blogs.

[48:05] Laura Bell Bundy: Thank you. So thank you so much for being here today. I feel like we need a part two.

[48:11] Daphne Delvaux: I know it's a lot, right? Thank you so much, Daphne.

[48:29] Daphne Delvaux: You're welcome. Thank you. Bye. Thank you, Daphne.