Patrick Oliver Jones:

When I look back at the people who've guided me through my whole artistic journey, so many of them, in fact a majority of them have been women. My very first choir leaders and music teachers were the ones who opened that door and showed me what music could be. Later, it was directors and music directors who kept nudging me forward even when I wasn't sure I was ready. And now here on the Beetlejuice tour, we've got Katie Davis, our associate director, who not only rehearsed me into my roles, but still comes around every couple of months to give us notes and maintain the show. She's like this steady hand behind the scenes, making sure we're all doing our best. So women have been a big part of my story and really of the arts in general, even though they don't always get the recognition they deserve. And today's guest has made it her mission to amplify those voices and build spaces where they can thrive.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Hi, my name is Sònia Victoria Werner. I also go by Vicki for short, so feel free to call me either. I am originally I kind of grew up in New York, New Jersey, Spain and Germany. But now I am here in beautiful New York City and I am an actor, producer, writer, general, multi hyphenate and I'm also the co founder and chief executive officer of Lighthouse Ladies, which is a production company based here.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now, Vicki just mentioned a few of the hats she wears as an artist and an entrepreneur, and she manages to do them all with purpose and conviction. Born into a multicultural family and fluent in three languages, her identity and artistry are as wide ranging as the places she's called home. Her work has ranged from film and television to theater and voiceovers, but there's also her groundbreaking role as co founder and CEO of Lighthouse Ladies, a women led production company championing inclusive and genre bending storytelling. She and I discuss everything from her first improv class at the age of 10 to making a no budget film with three other women that sparked an entire company to what it takes to grow a team without losing that scrappy collaborative spirit. And she doesn't shy away from the tougher stuff either. Ghosting, rejection, gatekeeping, all the things that this industry throws at us and how she's navigating them with grit and vision. And for this episode I'm including one of her audition stories as well. Normally something that only subscribers get, but I wanted you to hear this one as a little bonus so that hopefully you can join our subscriber community for more of these behind the scenes moments.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I'm Patrick Oliver Jones. And thank you for joining me on season nine of why I'll Never make it, an award winning theater podcast where I talk with fellow creatives about three stories or moments of personal struggle and professional hardship. Subscribers will get additional audition stories as well as early access to the episodes. The website is why I'll never make it.com where you can subscribe, donate and learn more about the podcast. Again, that's why I'll nevermakeit.com well, welcome, Vicki. It is such a pleasure to meet you and so glad to have you on the podcast today.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Right back at you. I'm really, really grateful to be here and to be chatting with you. So thanks for having us or me again.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absolutely. Well, you know, before we get started talking about Lighthouse Ladies and your career, you actually come from a family that I guess it wouldn't exactly be described as a theater family. And yet at the age of 10, you enrolled in improv classes. Was this something that you had thought, thought about or something you asked for?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

It's a great question. My family and my friends when we were young, when I was younger, they used to joke around that when I was about 2 years old, 3 years old, at our preschool, I performed I'm a Little Teapot. And I think everyone was like, wow, what presence she has. And I think that was like the first kind of, you know, joke around of like, oh, maybe this girl could be like a performer, could be on the stage at some point, point. And I think I just had a lot of energy as a kid and my mom and my dad, they're both massive lovers of the arts. And so I think that it was always kind of like adjacent to our family. But yeah, I was one of the first slash am one of the first or the first performing artists in my family. And they just kind of said, okay, let's try out improv, let's see where the, where this goes.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And it went far, I'll tell you that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, what did you love most about those classes at the age of 10? Because I didn't start taking improv till I was in. So, you know, I had, you know, I'd been doing some theater, but never the improv before. So what was it about improv that really sparked you?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I had a really, really wild imagination when I was a kid and a lot of my closest friends in elementary school and I, during recess, instead of, you know, playing sports or going on the monkey bars or something, we used to craft these elaborate stories and we would all play different characters in those stories. And craft very vibrant lives. It was like little T shows on the playground. And I think that having an outlet for that and being in improv and as a kid, being told yes. And, you know, in a funny way, it was like the possibilities were so endless. It gave me a way to be silly and outlet to be silly and to be myself and to get all that extra energy out. And I just remember very vibrantly, just loving going to improv and creating the most wacky characters. You know, it kind of set me up for a couple times where I fell flat on my face during my first ever auditions when I was first getting into it, because I thought every audition was improv.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I didn't know that there were scripted auditions when I first went into it, which is kind of silly to say now, but. No, I don't even know how we ended up there. I think my mom just found something online about, like, improv classes for kids, and then she put me in there, and then I started doing summer conservatories and acting classes and sing and dancing, and I just found a real love and a real joy in all of it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. Improv is definitely kind of a gateway drug to all the other forms of performing.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

True. It really was. It really. I. I wish that I remembered more. I just remember that there was an exercise with, like, a red wooden chair. And I remember going home and thinking, how many stories can I create with this red wooden chair? And something so menial and so, like, you know, just a red wooden chair, I think, inspired me beyond words. And I just couldn't stop creating from there, which is.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I don't. It's a. It's. It's a weird entry point from I'm a little teapot to improv to now what I'm doing, but there we go.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, let's get into your first story. And this is about a project that you refer to as a scrappy gorilla film, and it was called Sand Women. You had no money. You really didn't have a crew. It was just four women literally kind of doing all the jobs, writing, acting, directing, producing, so forth. So tell us about this film, exactly what it's about and where this title comes from.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Oh, what a beautiful question. I love how you worded that. So Sand Women. You know, I had. Here, let me back up. When I was in college, I went to NYU and had the best time at nyu. I studied drama and business and producing, and I was kind of trying to find my footing. I went to nyu.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Very much set in the fact that I was Only gonna be an actor, period. I only wanted to do acting, and that was it. And I think a part of that was because the world kind of tells you, what's your backup plan, you know, when you're an act? And I resisted that and resented that beyond words. And I remember just thinking, I'm going to be an actor. I'm going to be an actor. Then the pandemic hit, and we all went home, and what a crazy time to be in education at that time. But me and a couple of my closest friends in acting school were one of the first people or some of the first people to come back to the city. And it was strange.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

It was like a hybrid world. Some of us were on zoom, some of us were in the studio with masks on, all of these things. And I say this because we all came together one summer, and we realized, we said, we're some of the first people here. We really want to create. There's this kind of void that the pandemic created, and we weren't quite sure how or with what resources to do this. I had been writing a play called Sand Women with my roommate at the time, Melina, who turned out to be one of our co founders, and she's a dramaturg as well. And so we were just, like, workshopping this play, and we said, what if we just come together, us and our closest friends, and we make this film from the ground up as a passion project, us four Sand Women being a play on words with Sandman, Sandman or Sandman, Because I feel like it's an interesting subversion of what you expect. It's a queer story, unrequited love, a little bit of surrealism in there, because these two main characters, arena and Donna, come together and kind of fight the ghastly personification of their feelings for one another.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And so, yeah, we ended up doing all of that together. And we had no support, no money, no crew, no nothing. Every single role that you can imagine was made or inhabited by four women who were really smart and really cool and very skilled in very different ways, but had never done this before. And we messed up a lot. We learned a lot. We pulled a lot of favors. And somehow, after we finished that, we said to ourselves, let's do that again.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, what was it about this process that maybe surprised you? Some discoveries that you made along the way? Like, you know, because obviously, I assume, you know, you grab a camera and just start acting. But there's more to it.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

There is, and there's a misconception, I think in our world. And I think, especially as actors, as multi hyphenates, that you have to do everything. Think about, you know, with a self tape, you have to be the director, the gaffer, the sound engineer. You have to do everything. And then you also have to be the actor on the other side. And so there is this misconception that you have to do everything and you have to be the best in everything. And I think in this process, I figured out, I was like, wow, Heather is incredible at tech. Heather knows cameras like nobody's business.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And Heather knows how to work a cannon, how to make something look nice, how to ensure that the sound is all cohesive. Cindy was killer at outreach. And Cindy helped us find all of our locations and ideas. She also brought this kind of whimsy to the script that I think wasn't there before. Melina with her dramaturgical skills. And so all of these things came together. We all acted in this film, and we all did it together. And I think it wouldn't have been what it was without us four.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

You know, could we have done it with more people? For sure would have been probably a little bit easier. But I think that that's kind of what surprised me is, like, not only do you not have to do it alone, but you also don't need a lot of people to get started. You can just make something happen if you have the right team.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And was there a particular moment or a conversation that made you think, oh, this can be more than just a project. This could be a company, or this could be more than that.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Ooh, I don't know if there was a specific moment, but I do remember we all went back to my apartment, I think, on the final day of shooting when we all wrapped, and we went back to my apartment, and we were just talking and talking, and we were throwing around ideas for the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And it wasn't. It was less of a conversation about, like, oh, let's make a company, and more just like, how can we keep creating together, you know, and how can we continue growing this? And that was really inspiring, I think. You know, I always say in the company, I mean, now we've grown to a team of 17, which is wild from a team of four that we were when we first started. But I always say it's very easy to start a production company, like, logistically and also just practically, it's easy to get started. What's hard is to make it an actual thing, an actual entity that is different than all the other production companies out there, and that can be scalable, and that can be something real. And I think, to answer your question more directly of, like, what kind of sparked this. This thing of, like, maybe we should make this serious, is we took a year to figure out if this was something serious.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

After Sand Women, Sandwomen entered the festival circuit, did pretty well, got into some really cool festivals, and we all came together and we said, okay, what's our business plan? Like, let's figure out this. This USP stuff, like, unique selling proposition, and, like, how can we come to market and do something different and do it better? And we did.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so. And so with. With the film now, you know, as you say, it started to go into film festivals. How was it received? How did you actually feel about the final product? Was it something that you said? I'm sure as artists, we always want to tweak something. There's always one little thing we want to fix. But were you overall happy with what you four came up with?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I think happy, for sure. Happy in many different ways. From a technical standpoint, as you know. You know, this was our first ever film that we had created, and it was the first. Yeah, the first film we'd ever created, and also our first ever collaboration together. And we were not filmmakers. We all came from an acting background. And so there are parts of the film that I.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I really love. Like the acting. I love. I love the writing. I love the direction that we did. The sound is beautiful. Everything is really gorgeous. I think that, yeah, I'll leave it there.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Let's stay positive. You know, I will leave it there. But also say, you know, it was the first. It was the first thing that we had ever done. Would I do things differently? 100%. But for what it was and what it represented to us as a beginning, I think it did everything that it needed to do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

With there being four of you and each of you kind of having your hand in the pot at different points. How did you go about, you know, kind of delegating tasks or, you know, not stepping on each other's toes? Because obviously someone may have an idea, someone has a different idea. How did you resolve these kind of.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Issues in the film, specifically? It was actually very freeing. We kind of looked at one another. We sat down and we said, what are the roles that you most enjoy doing? And, like, what are the things that you really want to get your hands dirty with and try out? We all immediately said, we want to act in this, definitely, because that was our background. But Heather had Mentioned that she wanted to be the cinematographer and she wanted to be the DP there, because that was her background and she knew cameras like that. Melina helped us out a lot in terms of sound, in terms of lighting, different setups, also Props did a lot of that. And we kind of all came together and decided, what are the things that we genuinely want to do? And for example, with directing, Heather and I directed it together because that was something that we had really, really wanted to try out. I was big into writing. I did a lot of writing at that time, and so I knew that I wanted to write this, and I worked with Malina to also refine it.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

So it was really a collaborative process. It was very nice not to feel like we were stepping on one another's toes in that way.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, that's really great that you were all able to work for each other and kind of like, give with the ebb and flow of those decisions that have to be made as you make the process. And you say that you took about a. Once the. Once the film came out, once you released it to the festivals, you took about a year to kind of sort out, what is this going to look like, how is this collaboration going to go forward, and what exactly in figuring out that creative work, the logistical planning, what exactly did that look like during that year of planning?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I think it was a lot of questions and a lot of maybes. And when I say that, I mean, it's like, maybe we could be this, or maybe this could be our thing, you know, or maybe this one is different, or we're really good at this. You know, it was a lot of maybes and a lot of questions and trying things out, seeing if they stuck. That first year, we really wanted to be so intentional about what are we going to do differently and how are we going to do it better. And that was kind of the process there. My background, in addition to acting, was in kind of a corporate sphere. I've always been really drawn to the business side and the metrics and, you know, planning out, doing cash flows, doing like, you know, managing from the ground up. A company.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I had founded a company before I founded Lighthouse Ladies, which is still going on. It's not in the arts, it's a tutoring company. But so that was kind of my background coming into this. And I was studying, producing, and so I was trying to be very intentional with, you know, if we're going to do this, we're going to do this, right? And so it was a lot of development, a lot of figuring out what kind of projects do we want to produce and why and with whom are we going to do theater? Are we going to do film? Are we going to do, you know, different, like events? At first we were calling ourselves a collective, then we called ourselves an initiative, and then we called ourselves a production company. And now it's kind of, you know, we're building an ecosystem, we are a production company, but we are so much more in that we do, we do screens, services, society, we do what we can to make the industry better from the inside out.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And where exactly the name Lighthouse come from?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Lighthouse Ladies. It came from three different areas. I'll say the cool one first and then the other two, which are kind of our little silly inside scoop stories. But we love this image of a lighthouse as a vessel or as an icon of bringing lost sailors back to shore. So if you are lost at sea, you look for the lighthouse and that takes you back. And I think a lot of the time when we enter the industry, we have a passion, we have that improv spark or we have, you know, you really, you know why you want to be in this industry. And sometimes the industry can knock you down. And I think it's our goal and our mission a lot of the time is to remind people why they first wanted to be in this industry in the first place.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

To find the humanity, to find the connection, the collaboration, and to help them find their way back to shore and back to the original passion that brought them here in the first place. So that was really big to us, that lighthouse imagery, Ladies, not because we only work with women, but because we were four female founders. And I'm a really big believer in female entrepreneurship, especially given the amount of male dominated producers slash industry powers that be in this industry. And we were really excited to be something different in that way. But we also work with lads. You know, we say we have ladies, lads, everything, but yeah, and then the other two reasons were we had just watched the Lighthouse by Roger Eggers and it just seemed very serendipitous there. And then we also filmed on a beach, Sand Women was, was largely shot on a beach by a lighthouse. And so it was like, okay, lighthouses everywhere in this image.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Okay, maybe we'll be Lighthouse ladies.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah. It seemed like everything came together. You could only choose that name. That was it.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

You really can't do anything else at that point.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, as we get into story number two, let's talk about, you know, you started this company and you quickly came to find out that it's really easy to start a company. But it is quite different to. To actually have that company be something that's better, that's sustainable. You know, bringing it all together is just something different. So going from four people to now 17 is obviously a huge ju. What. What was. What would you say was that first key role that you hired for? What was your priority as you started?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Oh, hmm. You know, when we first started, when it was just us four, I remember that we had a Google Doc and we made. We made a Google Doc and we had a table there of all the roles that we thought would make a production company successful from like, you know, the bookkeeping side and the financial projections to the film division. At that time it was called the film division. Now it's called Screen. But anyways. But all of these things of, like, who would lead this and who would lead that and like, what are all the roles that we need to make a production company successful and real? And at the time, we just took our names and we put them next to each room. Just like in Sand Women.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Very similar to Sand Women. And so our role delineation was like, maybe Vicki has 15 roles in this way. 15. And they're all a little baby roles. And then Heather has 12 and Melina has 10 or whatever it is. But that was at the beginning. We were kind of just growing and developing and figuring out, okay, this is what I want to do and this is what I don't want to do, and different things like that. The first one we hired after us for, I think the first one after, as we were growing and developing, we.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

The first major film that we produced was called Alone Alone, Alone on a Wide Wide Sea, which ended up being Oscar qualifying in 2023, which was incredible and is still in its festival run because that's how the thing, the way the things work. And it's screening this week, which is crazy, the fact that we made it so long ago. But when Alone Alone Alone was starting to pick up traction and starting to really be something in the festival circuit and gain that visibility, we hired a social media manager and we said, okay, can you help us get the word out that this film is a thing and it's doing very well. And from there, you know, we just kept on growing and growing. We had social media, we had pr, we brought on interns, a publicist, post production. Now we have development. I think if I could go back in time, I would have, I think, maybe onboarded earlier than we had now, someone to help me run operations, because at the time I was doing Strategy and operations and it was a lot. But now we have Danny and Heather on operations and they're doing great.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I would say just being a podcaster, you know, I'm an independent podcaster myself and I would say that for a while I was spending more of my time marketing than anything, just trying to get the word out. I've since kind of pulled back from that because I, because I'm like, well, I need to focus on the product first. These episodes, putting that out. But yeah, marketing is such a huge slice of things now because there's like 17 million things that take our attentions. And to find the one is really hard.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

It really is. And they always ask, how much time are you spending working in the business versus on the business? I don't know if you've heard that part of it, but so much of it is an admin and is in, you know, like the, the not super glamorous stuff. You know, when you think of a production company, you think, oh, you're going to be creative every single day. And there are some, you know, I'm creative by nature, but there are some days where it's really just business and the taxes and payroll and I'm sure you, you know, you know that energy. But there are a million things that pull you in different directions. But marketing is so important in our industry, so worth the investment.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I'm curious, as you were getting started, were there any. Was there a drive to start to, to do too much on your own? Like, like, I, I need to do this on my own. I have to do this. This is, this is my task. Or rather than let it breathe and let other people help you.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Yes, you are preaching to the choir with this question, Patrick. This is, it's something that I've, that I've always struggled with it. You know, I'm a first generation American and I'm also the oldest in my family and the oldest daughter and all of these things that come with that. And also the first performing artist. And so a lot of firsts in my life and I think in forging my own path, I think a part of me forgot that it was okay to ask for help. And also there were people who have forged this path before me. Maybe not in my family, but in life in general. I had a mentor once who said that I was a jack of all trades, master of most.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And I think that got to my head because I was like, oh, I am a master of most. Maybe I can do it all. But I think a big part of growth in my life. And a big part of how I became who I am is realizing what strengths I have and what weaknesses I have and filling in the gaps with other people who are much better at different things than I am.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Would you say that that's how you keep the collaboration alive? By recognizing, I don't want to do this or I don't do this as well? Let me hand that off to someone who actually enjoys it.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Delegation is big. Delegation is so big, I think, in many industries. And I think for me, it's been a big journey for me as an entrepreneur was really letting go and trusting other people to do things their own way. And just because it's done a different way than I would have done, it doesn't mean that it's a bad way.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's a difficult one. That's hard.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

No, it is. And it always, like, you know, it. What. What reminds me is. Or it always goes back to this, like, little mini story that I always remember of my first ever play that was directed professionally. I was really hell bent somehow on directing this play, even though I had never directed anything. And they said, actually, let's give you a director. And I said, okay.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

They g. Gave me a director. He was fantastic. The play was a success. He did such a beautiful job. But I remember seeing the play and my first thought was, this is not what I would have done. And I had to look at my. At myself and say, but that's exactly why it was beautiful.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

That's exactly why it was fantastic. And a success was because he infused his artistic spirit into it in a way that I never would have been able to reach because I had this already preconceived notion of what the play should look like. And I think that it's a lot with business. It's a lot with task delegation. It's, you know, just trusting people to do. To work their magic on different things. Even if it's not your magic, it's still magic.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You know, that's. That's. That's such a great point to make that. Yes, creativity comes in many forms, and ours, Our personal view of something is just one form of it, and there are other ways. And that's. That's, you know, I think that's what you're discovering with lighthouse ladies, that this collaborative effort can produce and make so much more than just you on your own.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

It's true. It's true. You didn't get to a 24 with one, you know, just one person at the helm of it. Right. You know, you. It really is a team effort, and I'm really grateful for how much we've grown and the team that we really have. And it's, you know, a lot of what we do today and a lot of our slate would not be possible with just one person or two or even four more.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, as we get into story number three, I kind of want to break this down because you gave four characteristics of the art industry as a whole. And so I want to discuss each of them one by one. And the first one is ghosting. That the industry is full of ghosting. Now. Can you share a particular moment or time or a project that looked promising but then suddenly went quiet?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

It. Absolutely. I. It's very strange, and I've said this in the past, but I will say it again because it bears repeating. I think as creatives and creators, we perform or we create work, and we expect audiences to empathize with the work that we make, but we don't always extend that same empathy to our fellow collaborators or our fellow creatives or the people that we are hiring or casting or whatever else. And that's kind of what I meant by ghosting, I think, as an actor, which is where you and I are also, like, living in this world here, a lot of the time you will put yourself on tape and you will do. You'll spend a million hours on a million different tapes, and then you'll send it into the void and you'll never hear anything back. And I feel like that's a bit.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I understand that it's a lot of people, and I understand that, like, beyond anything, because we have a huge slate of, like, how crazy things get that you can't get back to everyone individually. But even a mass like, message of just, you know, maybe not this time, but next time, I think means a lot and I think validates the effort that people and creatives put into the work that they make. Because this is our lives, you know, and it's our passions and it's our jobs. I think in many different careers, there's a lot of ghosting. I think in this world, there's a lot of ghosting. But at Lighthouse Ladies, whenever we're casting for something or whenever we are doing a crew call, everyone who submitted, regardless of whether or not they got the job or they got the role or they booked something, will always hear back from us, no matter what, and will always hear back from us with also a next step to join our database, to join our mailing list, which is where we put all of our opportunities anyways. And so the door is never shut. You know, it's not right now, but it's definitely later.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And I think validating that effort contradicts a lot of the ghosting, hopefully. Or counteracts, I should say. A lot of the ghosting that I think happens just was born out of an actor for frustration, to be honest with you, which.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Which I totally get. And I'm. I'm a big proponent of even a no is better than silence.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I agree. And even, like, you know, if we. If. If we get under a hundred submissions for something, typically not for acting, because as we know, acting is a lot, but if we get under 100 submissions, maybe even under 50 submissions, we also sometimes offer feedback if you request it. Because I think this whole industry and I think our lives, all about growth and all about learning and education and how can I become artists through these experiences? And if we can help empower artists to get there, why not?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I think it's not just about being a better person, obviously, communicating with someone, giving them a no, thank you for submitting. You know, that's just. That's just being kind, like. Like that's certainly one part of it. But I think also from a business and artistic standpoint, to foster relationships with people, even if you don't use them this time, they might be the exact person you need in the next project. And so to keep that line of communication open, to make them feel value respected, maybe not in this area, but maybe in another area, I think it just behooves from a business and artistic standpoint as well.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I agree. I couldn't agree more with what you said. And I think at the end of the day, it's like we watch every single tape that comes across our desk. We take the time. And I think it's because we really do believe in the relationships and in the community. Because. Because as actors, you know, this industry or as even creatives, this industry can sometimes be a tough one. And whatever we can do to make it, you know, more humane and more connected, we will do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well. As we were talking about, nos or rejection is certainly part of this business. You know, when we actually do get that response, it is. It is often a no. We. We obviously get more rejection than we get, you know, than we book the job or what, whatever. And so it's really baked into the industry. How.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How do you tell a difference between a no that means not right now versus one that is like, no, you are not right. Don't submit again.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Oh, goodness. That is a good question. I Mean, I don't know whether I don't, I don't know whether I felt ever had that latter one. I hope not. That's good.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's good.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I mean, maybe during college auditions, because sometimes you'll walk into a room and you'll be like, yeah, you know, they don't, they don't want me. But I guess it's a good question. You know, we hear the age old adage of it's not rejection, it's redirection. You know, all the things that make us feel better about these things. I think a good thing for me though, whenever I receive a rejection or whenever I'm able to try and discern, like, oh, why did they say no to me? A lot of the time I have to remember because I've been on the other side of the table as well. A lot of the time it's not even about you or about your talent. A lot of the time it's about like you not being a fit for this specific project. But as you mentioned, you know, maybe next project or the one after that, you were the perfect fit.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And the nice thing is that you got into the room, even if it's a virtual room or a self tape room, they've seen your face and they remember you and these relationships. You know, I've gotten called in for things by casting directors that I didn't even know if they watched my tape, but apparently they did, you know, so these things like you just keep showing up, you just keep giving your all. And I think that energy and that positivity that you infuse into the industry, I think, or should come back.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you talk about sayings that kind of help us get through these nos and rejections. Another one of those is when someone closes a door, a window opens, that kind of thing. What have been some of your windows that have opened because of a door being shut?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And you're right, there are so many adages, there are so many sayings, I think, which speaks to the pervasiveness of no's in our industry. That's a good question. I am trying to think. It's a good question. Okay. I don't think I'm allowed to say what this is because it's not out yet. But I submitted, I kid you not, maybe over a dozen auditions for this one project. And it was an audition after an audition after an audition.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And I was like, oh my God, they really like me. They really want me, don't they? And it just kept on either being ghosts or it was like, like I have not heard back from them. Whatever. Awesome. Cool. I keep on moving on. And then during those specific dates that they were going to be shooting that project, weirdly I booked a feature that shot in Texas. And so I was able to say yes to the feature because I had not booked that.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And then when I got back, I booked it and the other one, the other project I finally did and it wasn't even for the audition that I, or the role I auditioned for, it was a totally different role. But you know, like, I think all of those no's and all of those doors closing, I think there were many windows being open that maybe I just wasn't aware of at the time. But you know, the windows always come. They always do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. And especially what, what I love and hate is when there's like three or four projects at once and all of them are happening at the same time. You can only do one of them. It's like, but I want all of them. And then. Yeah. And so it is very, it's very difficult to, to kind of. And, and especially if like two of them say yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's like now I have to choose. Why did you.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

No one ever tells you about multiple doors opening, right? Like sometimes it's just like, oh, it's the one that we're waiting for and then all of a sudden it's like three doors and now it's up to you to disappoint someone but, or a production. But you know, it always, it always comes back. And I think also like from a producing standpoint, from like a business standpoint, a lot of my time is just like spent prioritizing, is spent. Like what do I genuinely have the bandwidth for? What are my priorities and what is my, you know, return on time investment here? If I were take time off work doing this project or if I were to say yes to this one or this one, I think with producing as well, it's not like a one time, like a one month commitment. A lot of the time that you're there for a couple years. So being very intentional with your time and being intentional for the doors that you walk through. Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I like that. I like that. And this other area, this other characteristic of the industry that you talk about is called name recognition politics. Now what exactly does that mean to you?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Well, this is something that really came to me when I started producing on a bigger scale. You know, we are in development for two features and for a pilot right now, some of which are being written, others that are being packaged and financed Right now. And so there's just a lot of things that are happening and a lot of the. What was told to me when I was first shopping the pilot in specific was, do you have any names attached to, you know, names meaning like, A's, B, C listers that I think can give your product or project some credibility, especially in terms of distribution or getting it out there, getting eyeballs on the project because people know a name. You also will see this in the acting world as well. Like, here's your rate negotiable for name talent. You know what I mean? And it's like, oh, gosh, so I. I guess I'm just chopped liver then.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

But, you know, we'll make it all there at some point. But I think that's kind of the name recognition polit, the name of it all of, like, I'm a really, really big believer and we all are at Lighthouse Ladies with giving emerging artists a chance, because everyone starts somewhere. And I think we're living right now in an industry of a lot of reused IP or a lot of sequels or, you know, remakes, live actions, etc. Not. There's nothing wrong with those things. But I think. I think a lot of them, to come back to Broadway or to come back to film and tv, they feel like you have to have a name at the forefront a lot of the time. The industry and the market will agree with that, which is not a bad thing necessarily.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

But at Lighthouse Ladies, we really do try to make room for everyone and for emerging artists who have incredible talent, but maybe just not the resources nor the visibility to break through just yet.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, and also, I think, especially with theater, that, you know, certainly if you compare, like, the A list names on Broadway versus the A list names in TV and film, obviously TV and film, there's so many more names. You know, it's just a. It's just a bigger industry. There's more. More eyeballs on it for the simple fact that it's on a screen. But at the same time, I do find it funny when, like a national tour of that show is then going out and they want names. I'm like, look, Joe Schmo in Idaho doesn't really care. It's like, they know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

They know Wicked or they know, you know, whatever the show, they don't. They don't care about a name. Yeah.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And in making room for everyone in this industry, I think we have to be very intentional, I think on all sides of the table of making this sort of room, because that's a big pet Peeve of mine, and I understand where it comes from in terms of the marketability of a project, you know, but as you mentioned, I think there's also a real charm to discovering talent for the first time and giving it a platform and making room for new artists or just emerging artists who haven't gotten the chance yet. I really love that, and I really resonate with that. And you'll see that with a lot of our projects, you know, And I think I'm trying to push for the fact that people and audiences will turn out for really good stories, whether or not they know the people in it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How do you decide? Since you're on that side of the table, how do you decide this role needs a name, but this role can be an emerging art, it can be a new art. How do you decide and kind of figure that out?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

It's a good question. I don't know if I have that all figured out yet, really, like, from a producing standpoint, a lot of those decisions are made in my experience with the. With the lead creatives on it in the sense of like, the director will say, oh, I could really imagine this name playing this role, and I really want that as my wish list, you know, versus something else. I'm also, like, in terms of adding credibility to a project, I think from my point of view, I really love the idea of adding names as executive producers or bringing them into the writer's room or into the producing room, or getting their name on it in a way that they've had an impact but are uplifting artists who don't have that same visibility. That's more my MO and my. What excites me as a producer rather than just like stunt casting. I suppose that's more in the Broadway theater sense. But.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Yeah, I mean, I. I wish I had a better answer for you there, but that's kind of what I would say. I would. I'd rather attach names in. In roles where they can be uplifting rather than taking attention away. That makes sense.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The. Whereas the. The project still stands on its own. The name just adds to it rather than. It's all about the name now.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Exactly. Like the name adds credibility, like reasons why, oh, if Oprah believed in this, I'm going to go to the theater, too. Right. But that in bringing people to the theaters in Broadway or in, you know, film and TV or anything like that, that you are. Are uplifting minoritized voices or underrepresented voices or just underrepresented talent or emerging talent, because I Think right now we're really in a name game, which I'm, again, not 100% opposed to, but I really do believe in the power of uplifting everyone and making room for everyone in this industry. Because there can be.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I would say one of my biggest issues with that is whenever, like, whenever they make a movie of a musical, so to speak, and they go for names, but they can't sing.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I'm like, I get it, they're a great performer, but that doesn't mean they can handle, you know, Les Mis or Phantom of the Opera.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I think it was. I think I'm really big, especially in musicals, of casting folks from Broadway or casting folks who have the stamina and have, like, the training behind them, even if it's not, quote, unquote, a name. I think that's also a big controversy right now with the open calls that they're doing on TikTok or all these things that they're just for marketing purposes and then they just cast names anyways. But it's strange how the industry is transforming in this way. But my hope is that especially in the indie world, and hopefully, I'm sure we're going to talk about gatekeeping being the fourth word. Is that the fourth word that I said? A good segue there in terms of. It is. I always believe that in order to dismantle barriers, in order to dismantle gatekeeping, you first have to scale the gate.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

You got to get to the other side first in order to break it all down. That's what Lighthouse Ladies is. Is serving to do. You know, we are a very empathetic, wholehearted human company, but we're also a company with a mission and with metrics and with vision. It's not that we're just here for sunshine and rainbows, you know, we're here to make a difference. And in order to break down those barriers, we really need to get to the top. And that's the mission and the vision there so that we can push back and say, no, we're not going to have any names in this project. Our name is Lighthouse Ladies.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

That's the name, you know, and that's the energy that we're hoping to put forth.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, also, I think that that in some ways can enhance a story, because if it's all these familiar faces, then you're associating the character with that person rather than this kind of new artist. You've never seen them before. You've never seen them perform. And so they inhabit a character in a way that a named, recognized person. Person wouldn't.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I agree. I also hope that it doesn't come across as bitter, necessarily, in the sense of, like, they're called their name actors, because they have really achieved a lot. Congratulations. You know, I love that for them, and I also love that we are all on our own paths and our own journeys. Again, there. There are many different nuances to this sort of dialogue here, but I agree, if we can get people to the theater and to see real, genuine, new talent, Talent, what a win for, I think, everyone involved.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And how exactly? I mean, you made it clear that you're not always waiting for permission. Obviously, you want to be maybe the first there or you want to join in with others who are doing it. So how have you built and sustained your own pathways when doors may be closed to you? How do you either open those doors or, as we were talking about, find that window?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

The real thing is abandoning the assumption that everyone has the same beliefs about your work or that everyone has the same value system or metrics that they're looking for. You know, one investor might say no and say no for X, Y and Z. The next investor might say yes for those very reasons that the other one rejected you for. And so I think abandoning the assumption that everyone is the same and all art is just truly so subjective. It keeps you going. It's, you know, if someone says no to lighthouse ladies, we just know that they're not our partner, they're not our collaborator, they're not our customer. You know, and at that point, it becomes a let them theory. You know, if they don't want to believe in us or in this project, let them.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

That'll be their thing down the line, and we'll just keep on doing what we're doing and find people in alignment with what we're doing doing. And I think it goes across the board. Crew members, casting investors, producers, everyone. We really, really look for alignment. And not only really talented people, but also people who are genuinely passionate about the projects that we're making and about the mission that we are on right now altogether.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And does that ever become a motivation to prove someone wrong who may have said no?

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Ooh, that's a good question. I think we look at it from a different sense, from a slightly different angle. Less vindictive and more just. You know, we know exactly who we're going to be. You know, at the end of the day, all of the little puzzle pieces that we've put together, all of the cogs we've set in motion, it's all been from a place of authenticity and alignment to what we are building. And if someone doesn't believe in that, it's not my job to prove them wrong. And it's not our job to prove them wrong. They'll come to find that on their own, you know, and in that way, it's like when they go low, you go high kind of energy.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

But I think the, the entire team could speak for that, that we don't owe anyone anything and we don't need to prove anyone anything. But we just know we are going to continue to be a success as we always have been.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, let's get into your audition story. And this is when you know your college audition for NYU Tisch School of the Arts, and this was in late January of 2019. Your parents have been with you through the whole college audition process. But tell us about this particular one for nyu.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I told my mom I was going to be telling this story and she, I think panicked because it was so out of character for my parents, as we know from this episode. You know, I was the first to do a lot of these things in my family and the first also to go through college auditions, which if listeners don't know, I'm sure that they do here. But college auditions and audition and applying for college as a drama major or as an acting major or musical theater, you have like 3,000 more steps to do all of it. Because it's not just the application, it's now the auditions. So for this, you know, my parents, we had gone all around the country, we had been auditioning for different programs and they were with me this entire time. But this was one of my, I think maybe the final audition that I had for college. And I, I ran out of headshots. I ran out of headshots and resumes.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And back then, which is not even too far ago, but like back then, you know, everything was still in paper. I don't know whether they still do that in, in, in the, in the stage world. If you still bring headshots and resumes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And paper, if it's an in person, then yes. Yeah, yeah. You, you still bring head it.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I haven't gone to like an in person audition in so long because now I'm working mainly in voiceover and screen. But that's neither here nor there. I forgot headshots and resumes. I didn't have them printed. And I realized that at the very, very last second I was coming from New Jersey and I had to go to New York. And so my mom and I. We hustled, we ran to Staples, we got them all printed and everything like that. And as we were driving up to the train station, we saw the train approaching, the New Jersey Transit train that I had to in order to make my audition.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

And if I missed that, I missed the audition. And that was my one slot to do. So my mom didn't have time to park. We were like screaming back and forth in multiple different languages and, you know, just like trying to handle the chaos. My mom just said, get out. Like, get out, go. And I ran and I made the train and I sobbed the entire way into New York. I was like, I'm going to NYU alone.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

I like, this is my last audition and my parents are with me. I had gone to the city by myself before for like theater conservatories when I was in high school. But this was a big first for me because this was like, for college. And so I remember I was in the Tisch Building surrounded by loving families and moms and dads and grandparents who flew in from outside of the country. And then it's just me in a corner by myself, not having a great time, to be honest with you. I think being feeling very defeated and very like, of course I left things for the last minute. This is all my fault. All these crazy things.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Even though, you know, as. As actors we're allowed to mess up sometimes. You know, this is my first mess up in the entire process. And I was so hard on myself. But I remember the funniest thing was my. And I'm not method, I'm not like a method actor. I'm very much in my Stella Adler era. But my two monologues, one of them was about hating my mother.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

That was my comedy monologue. And my second monologue was about loss of family. And so somehow the universe, I think, was giving me a lot of material. And I remember that during the loss of family, when I just broke down, I like, completely broke down in that audition. And again, I typically don't bring a lot of my personal self into those characters, but I think that was just a moment of just a such. Such like looking around the room and being so alone. And I think after the audition they were like, what emotional depth you brought? Like, that was. And I was like, thank you.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Yes. But I remember that was one of my best auditions. And I remember that they asked me, they said, what are your goals in this industry? Where do you see yourself in five, six, seven, eight years after graduating? And I said, I think I envision being an actor and Making art with other people, that brings joy, that brings thought, that brings collaboration and energy and all of those things. And it was the first time that I'd actually worded that. And I think a big part of that was just the circumstances of the day, but also somehow something felt aligned. And I got into NYU in my top studio. I got into Stella Adler.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so of the schools that you say that was your top choice of all the schools you wanted to.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

It was. It was between NYU and another school on the west coast. And I ended up getting into NYU before I got into the other school. And I just felt aligned. It was like, okay, this is the one. And my mom still jokes to this day that it's her. It's her doing that. I got intent.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

It's like it was because I ditched you at that train station that day. And we yelled back and forth and you sobbed that you made it happen.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It was a literal. Yeah, it was a literal illustration of the mama bird pushing the baby bird out of the nest.

Sònia Victoria Werner:

Yes. I like how you said that. It was. It was like, literally me running, like, running across the street, being like, I'm going to New York alone, and me calling my best friend, saying, my mom ditched me. But, yeah, no, that's true. I was very much. I was shoved out of the nest, and I guess I flew.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yes, you did. Yes, you did. Thank you so much for joining why I'll Never Make It. And don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to why I'll never make it.com and click subscribe. Or just look for the link in the show notes. Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll Never Make It.