Patrick Oliver Jones:

One of my favorite parts of being an actor is getting to work on workshops and readings of new plays and musicals. That's where new works first take shape, where characters start to breathe, and where artists get to play around and experiment without the pressures of a finished production. Thankfully, I've had the chance to do a lot of them at NYU Tisch regional theaters and small independent projects. I love the discovery that happens in those early moments. You get to push who a character is and see just how far they can go. That spirit of development and exploration is something that today's guest knows all too well.

Patricia McGregor:

Hi, my name is Patricia McGregor. I am originally from St. Croix in the US Virgin Islands, but I am currently living in New York City where I am the Artistic Director of New York Theatre Workshop.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Taking the helm of the New York theatre workshop in 2022, Patricia followed the 34 year tenure of James Nicola in what American Theater Magazine called one of the most significant artistic turnovers in recent years. With a career spanning theater, music and film, she's brought bold stories to stages like the Geffen Playhouse, the Old Globe and Lincoln center, while also co founding Angela's Pulse with her sister, choreographer Paloma McGregor. In our conversation, Patricia reflects on her journey from staging childhood performances with her sister to navigating tough career decisions and eventually stepping into this influential role. We talk about the challenge of balancing creativity with business and the lessons she's learned from the obstacles and crossroads she's faced, reminding us that the very hardships we encounter can be the spark of something bigger if we just trust ourselves enough to keep going. I'm Patrick Oliver Jones and thank you for joining me on Season nine of why I'll Never make it, an award winning theater podcast where I talk with fellow creatives about three stories or moments of personal struggle and professional hardship. Subscribers will get additional audition stories as well as early access to the episodes. The website is why I'll never make it.com where you can subscribe, donate and learn more about the podcast. Again, that's why I'll never make it.com.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh welcome Patricia. It is such a joy to get to meet you and to talk to you today. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

Patricia McGregor:

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now in all of my travels through, I've done several cruise ship contracts and of course they love the Caribbean, a lot of ports there and I've been to the US Virgin Islands, which is where you're from, St. Croix and from what I understand these Carnival celebrations, these annual celebrations that they have were really one of the first times when you got to see dance and music and things and people performing, what was it that was so meaningful, impactful for you about these Carnival celebrations?

Patricia McGregor:

I often joke that my childhood was bathed in seawater and sequins. My mother was an art teacher in the public school there, and so she would sew costumes for my sister's dance company, Caribbean Dance Company. So I not only got to observe, but our family was really, from an early age, participating in Carnaval and Carnival manifests in different ways in different parts of the world. But for us, especially around the holidays, kind of from mid December all the way through to late January, there were so many festivals and celebrations, whether that was Three Kings Day parade or we will throw a parade for St. Patrick's Day, which is hilarious. In the middle of the Caribbean. We love Carnival, and parades are places to gather, to celebrate, to storytell and connect. And it's taken me a while to realize that part of what I love so much about outdoor theater and outdoor performance.

Patricia McGregor:

As much as I've trained and love the jewel box performances that we're able to create in indoor theaters, there is something about the accessibility and the vibrancy of outdoor theater that was planted all those years ago in St. Croix. So whether it was being an audience member and watching a carnival parade go by, or very often, particularly with the Caribbean Dance Company, we were a part of the carnivals and the celebrations. And it's really a core performance memory for me, and one that more and more, I am trying to make sure that all of my pieces, even if they're in an indoor theater, are somehow connected to that energy of wanting to connect and be accessible.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, whenever you were giving me your stories you wanted to talk about, there was one that you mentioned about performing at a picket line at your mother's elementary school. Please tell us more about this one. Exactly.

Patricia McGregor:

My mother was an art teacher, and she was also a union organizer at her school. And so one of the. There was a. They went on Shrike. The teachers went on strike at my elementary school. I was in kindergarten, and my sister must have been third or fourth grade. And, you know, how do you keep up spirits? We've seen this. We saw this on the.

Patricia McGregor:

The SAG lines. We saw this on, you know, a lot of the strikes that have happened in the last couple years. So one of the ways was performing. And so my sister and I would get dressed up in our Sunday best and, you know, we would. We would bring lemonade and we would bring food supplies, and we would sing and we would perform and we would. And sometimes we would chant, you know, with the teachers. But often we were there to keep people's spirits up. And I think of theater as a collective act.

Patricia McGregor:

So often it's so highly collaborative. It's not about rugged individualism. It's about us gathering for a purpose, to create something. And also, in my personal experience from a very young age, it's also about how do we show up for each other and how do we support each other in movements for just world. And so I often joke that, you know, we've been singing and dancing on picket lines for a long time in my life.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So it seems like, especially when you were talking about Carnival as well, that joy aspect of it, that, that community aspect of it, it seems like that this has been, from the very beginning, this has been a theme that's run through your career.

Patricia McGregor:

Absolutely. There's something about. I often think even when it's harrowing, even when it's shocking, even when sometimes you can touch the third rail and that can happen in Carnival as well. But there's a jolt in the theatricality that makes you feel more alive. There is the. It's the anti pedestrian movement. It's a thing that in Carnival we have, for example, Mokojambis, which are these large stilt walkers that are really in the. In the griot tradition of spirituality and highly theatrical.

Patricia McGregor:

You have visually very vibrant eye catching visuals. And I love design. I love. And sometimes the design can be really stark, but it's very intentional and catches your eye and it moves you in a new way. And then the. Even in a kind of straight play that I'm handed, I'm almost always drawn to things that have a lot of poetry or music or a level of lyricism. Something that is just there is a heightened nature. Pablo Picasso often says, art is the lie I tell, so I can see the truth.

Patricia McGregor:

And I think there's something about the vibrancy of theatricality that makes the lie that we're telling with the art enticing, that it draws you in, that it kind of shakes you out of the slumber of our everyday lives and the doldrums of bills and the overwhelming sense of the world and kind of perks you up to the moment that you're in and the story that you're hearing. So I do think that there's something about the vibrancy and the theatricality and the interactive nature of Carnaval. You are not on the sidelines of the parade, sitting quietly, just waiting to Kind of with a scorecard in hand waiting to, to rate what's going on. You're actually participating. You were feeding back. You were. There is a call and response to it that I also love in the work that I do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It sounds like so much fun. And having been to several Caribbean islands. Yeah, that there, there is that just joy and celebratory atmosphere in, in a lot of those kind of celebrations. And so, yeah, it's really wonderful that you got to grow up in that type of atmosphere.

Patricia McGregor:

Yes, I feel very lucky.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, let's get into your first story that you wanted to talk about. And there are times in all of our careers where we can have that blessing and curse of multiple job opportunities at the same time. And back in 2009, 2010, you were working on a new development play of Katori Hall's Pussy Valley, and you were going to be at this theater, but the funding fell through. And then while you're trying to figure out how to get that going, you then get this job offer, something more stable, something a little bit more of it, probably a little more lucrative for you. And so you had a decision to make. As we get into this story, I first want to talk about what is it like working with Katori Hong? She's gone on to be a Pulitzer Prize, Olivier Award winning playwright. Most of us musical theater folks we know are from the Tina Turner musical. So what was it like working with her all these years ago?

Patricia McGregor:

I loved working with her all these years ago. The brilliance, the vibrancy. When we talk about Carnival and things that make you feel more alive, Kotori is like a lightning bolt in the room all the time. She's funny, she's precise, she's audacious, she's generous. She's really one of my favorite collaborators. And while the expanse of her reach has grown kind of, the compassion and rigor of her work has remained the same. So back in those days, shortly after grad school, Katori and I had met socially. We had a lot of friends in common.

Patricia McGregor:

We admired each other as an artist. And so she'd asked me to work on this workshop of P. Valley. And as you said, there was supposed to be institutional funding that fell through. And at the same time, I was offered. Nigel Smith, a dear friend who had been the associate director of Fela on Broadway, said, they're about to do a European tour. Would you like to be the associate director who tours Europe as the AD of the European tour of Fela? Well, now, both pieces of art are extraordinary. The Fela tour would have been lucrative.

Patricia McGregor:

I would have been touring Europe in style on a show that I really believed in. It would be collaborating with artists that I really love. And yet it would have been abandoning this workshop that already felt like it had been abandoned by a structure that was supposed to support it. And it would be missing the opportunity to lean into a relationship with Katori, who was an artist that I really love, and building the support around a piece that I thought was really important. It wasn't going to. We were going to have to figure out the funding, we were going to have to figure out the infrastructure. So that one was not just directing, it was kind of going into a co producing of the workshop. And while it was a tough decision because my bank account wanted me to have that regular, you know, touring Broadway ad check, the part of me that loves adventure wanted to tour around Europe.

Patricia McGregor:

But I thought to myself, that's a piece that already has support. They're just looking for someone to fill in a role that would be wonderful to fill in. But that train is going to leave the station and make it to the next station no matter what. And this one, this developmental work on Pussy Valley, which ended up becoming the show P. Valley, it needed a champion at that time. And I really loved both Katori and the piece. And so I said, while it won't be as lucrative, it will be very fulfilling. And we ended up finding.

Patricia McGregor:

We found a pole dancing instructor and found a space in the Bronx by a place where there were a lot of people who were pole dancers or formal pole dancers. We ended up actually spending Katori's 30th birthday in a club where we were doing research. I mean, we just went all in. And I said, if I'm going to put my chips behind supporting this artist in this project, I'm going to go all in. And it's going to mean that it's not. Not going to be as lucrative, but it's going to be soulful. And I think I'm going to live my purpose more, which is, I always think, how can the resources and energy I have be put to best use? And it felt like this one was. Was an opportunity to help nourish a script and an artist in a time where that would be really impactful.

Patricia McGregor:

So it was. You know, I still think of some of the places in Europe I might have gone to and some of the things I might have, you know, purchased. But I am very glad I made the decision that I made because it really deepened my relationship with Katori. And I feel I was able to help support a project that was in process, but had not found its feet yet.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you had been with Fela for a while because you had gotten to do the original or been a part of the original Broadway production.

Patricia McGregor:

Well, part of what's interesting about this and part of what's interesting about the kind of long way of the world, my coming on to be the AD of Fela on Broadway, actually, the offer came back around. So the original offer was for the European tour. And I. And I loved the piece, and. But I. Nigel was the original associate director, and I said, oh, I'd love to be involved. He knew that. But I said, I guess now is not the time.

Patricia McGregor:

So, ironically, I got to kind of have my cake and eat it, too, in a certain kind of way. I got a call later on when they brought Patti LaBelle in for the Broadway version. For the final stretch of the Broadway version, they needed somebody to come in and be the AD and help Patti get into it. So I still got to participate in that. And I think sometimes it might not be the short game, but the long game. Hopefully I was rewarded in some ways for making the decision that wasn't the financial decision, but was like the artist support decision to support Katori's work at that time. I don't know if it was a test or not, but I think in this case, maybe I passed because I still got the opportunity. It wasn't in Europe, but it was still on a production that I loved as well.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it's so wonderful when opportunities like that come back around again, because the same thing happened for me. I got to audition for the BeetLeJuice tour in 2022. I chose another project at that time, and then two years later, it came back and said, okay, we're needing to fill the slot again. And so I got to be a part of it. So it is really nice when you can. When you have a choice, you make one, and then the choice comes back around again.

Patricia McGregor:

Yes, yes. And I think one of my organizing principles is how do I think about taking care of the whole ecosystem? Because I think people remember those things. And while it may, you know, you may make a decision that's value aligned and it might feel like a sacrifice if people know you're a person who stands with them, stands up for them, I'm sure that one of the reasons why Katori asked me to direct Hurt Village, which was my Off Broadway premiere, is that she knew I made a decision that was really standing with her and by her. And not only did we align artistically, but also you really remember the people who show up for you when they could have shown up for something else. And then you hope that the other thing comes back around. But I feel anytime I've made a decision where I really feel it was value aligned, I really believed in not just my own dreams, but how do I help support the artists and the ecosystem that I care about generally. Again, I think we have to think about long game and not short game. Usually something good will bubble up around.

Patricia McGregor:

It might take a couple of years for it to come around, but I think people are always watching and paying attention to those kinds of things.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Did that same thought process or decision making go into when you decided to accept the offer to become artistic director of the New York Theater Workshop? This was back in 22 when you joined them. Was that that same cause? You had to move from the west coast to the east coast to make that happen? Was that same decision process going on there?

Patricia McGregor:

Yeah. I mean, I think I might be a glutton for punishment, but I knew times are not easy to be a leader in the American theater. Coming out of COVID dealing with a lot of instability, I also knew that it was going to be following a beloved. Beloved by me as well. Founding artistic director is going to be hard, but I believe so much in the work that the workshop does. I believe so much in my energies being poured into that purpose would be hopefully a very useful space to put my resources, my time, my energy, my Rolodex, all of those things. And so I do think while it's a very kind of glamorous on some days and privileged on other days, leadership is also a lot of work in this moment. It's a lot of kind of wanting to make sure that you can keep seeing the horizon despite the.

Patricia McGregor:

The headwinds and the rain and all of the challenges that are that you're facing. And. But I thought this is an organization that I can really stand behind, and it stands behind artists that I really believe in and support. And so it felt like the right timing. In a. In the best case scenario, all leadership is of service. You have to have a certain kind of ego, you have to have a certain kind of durability, you have to have certain kind of sales, but it is there to be of service. And it felt like in this time, that is a challenging time, that it's a time.

Patricia McGregor:

Time of fear and contraction for many people in the field. Part of what I could bring was kind of a robust and audacious sense of commitment to Getting through the storm, into the horizon, and hopefully making that horizon a place that would be accessible to more people, both audiences and artists. And so while there's great privilege in it, it was also a commitment to see saying, I'm willing to do some of the heavy lifting it's going to take to make sure that artists continue to be supported, this organization moves from surviving to thriving, and that we can hopefully help not only our own organization and artists, but the ecosystem that is trying to figure out what are new models. So I knew I was committed to work, but I thought that work was very worthy.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I was reading that American Theater magazine, they called this one of the most significant artistic turnovers in recent years. Did it feel like a seismic shift to you as you were taking on this new leadership role?

Patricia McGregor:

I mean, I think when you look at, if you look at maybe the three to five year window that we've been around, a lot of our major organizations, Lincoln Center Arena, New York Theater, Workshop, Roundabout, there has been a pretty seismic shift of some major organizations, large and small. There's been some generational shifts. People have been in for 10, 20, 30 years. And it's a really interesting. It's a very mixed bag because in some ways very exciting to have the opportunity to, you know, give the wheel to some new people to figure out how they're going to steer the course. And also tricky because it's, you know, this generational shift is coming in a time that is also a very challenging time. So how do we set, you know, one of the things we talk about in the field, in our organization with funders, is how do we set these transitions up for success, knowing also that it's a time where a lot of women or leaders of color or people who have not, you know, who are very different from the, from the shoes that they filled. How do we really set that up for success? That's the big question for me.

Patricia McGregor:

So I think that there's an excitement about that these opportunities are opening up and also knowing that they're opening up in a particularly challenging period in our field in the world, how do we assure that the leaders and the organizations are set up to help animate that next vision, that next chapter, in the best kind of way?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And even though it's called artistic director, there's a lot of financial and business stuff that goes into being it. How are you able to balance that creative aspect, the artistic aspect, with these more kind of, I guess, mundane business type of requirements as well?

Patricia McGregor:

I mean, I just saw Jim Nicole as my predecessor we're very close. And even though leadership transitions, often there's challenges around change. One of the great things is that's not between Jim and I. I mean, it's so much love, and we're very different people, but there's actually a lot of value alignment in terms of radical artist support. And one of the things that I bring to the table, especially in this time where production costs are higher, it's harder to get people in, is I don't mind fundraising, and I do it a lot, and I call it resource gathering, because sometimes it's about actual funds, sometimes it's about. About just getting people to spread the word. Because I believe so much in the art that we do, and I don't like the answer no. So if it means that if the no is coming, sometimes no is human capacity and hours in the day, and I have to bend to the reality of that.

Patricia McGregor:

But I believe in the work we do so much. And there are. Although there have been cuts, there are people with the ability to support who are looking for purposeful ways to engage. And if I want this project to go forward, if I want, there are all of these workshops and development spaces that are closing. You know, we know the Lark closed. We know Sundance Lab closed. We know there have been contractions at the o' Neill and many of the really important developmental spaces. So I don't.

Patricia McGregor:

I will knock on every door on my block and internationally to make the case. It's almost like being a lawyer for a client that you really believe in. I really believe in the artists. I really believe in the work that we need to do. I really believe in the education engagement programs. So I am pretty radical about fundraising. And for me, it's not me going out with an open hand. It's an invitation for people to get involved with something that is purposeful and impactful.

Patricia McGregor:

And I've even gone to Congress with a group to do arts funding, and I like to try to make the case across the line to people. And sometimes you're making the case economically to say, you know, dollar for dollar, if you invest in the arts, that's going to animate all of the restaurants, and it's going to. These are the jobs. And, you know, I. I'm happy to make the case in a variety of ways, but I believe in the art and the artists and the impact that art can make in terms of building community, bridging conversations, having people feel like they are fighting in a united way for the possible future that we want, not the harrowing present that we are often in. So it does take up a lot of time. But I don't see it as. I think some people see it as this burdensome.

Patricia McGregor:

You know, I'm going to go talk to these people with an outreach hand. And to me, I feel more like I'm trying to find people to hold hands with who can believe in the vision and understand the need that we have and have the ability to participate with something that feels really purposeful. So it's something that some people find very unsavory. But I feel, because I believe in the why of why I'm asking for this support. I don't mind the ask.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, as we get into story number.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Two, this was one of your first projects after grad school, and you were the assistant director on a particular show, and you were asked to take on a lot of different roles in this production. However, one of these, you felt, crossed a boundary for you, as you put it, and this led to a frank discussion about what you were willing to do. Before we get into the details of that, describe exactly what an assistant director does. Like, obviously, they're working with the director. But how many hats are you taking on when you're being an assistant director?

Patricia McGregor:

I think it depends on the needs of the director, the production, and most importantly, probably the relationship that you have with that person and the tools that you have. So the good news about taking on so many roles is that it meant that I had the trust of the director that I was working with. It meant that sometimes as an assistant, you could just, like, go get coffee and take some notes from time to time. And it can be very administrative. Other times you can really share artistic thoughts, take on a part of the. You know, a part of the work. So that might be working with dancers, working with children, working on this part of the scene, working, you know, so you might be assigned a certain task that really you get to take ownership and take responsibility for. And in this particular case, I took responsibility for something that had to do with some actors and some, you know, younger, more vulnerable actors.

Patricia McGregor:

And I was asked to. How shall I say it? I brought up something that felt unsafe, like something that they were asked to do that because of certain circumstances, felt unsafe. And I was kind of encouraged to let that moment endure until we got a thing we needed technically. And it was a line for me, you know, because I can be malleable in terms of artistic choices. I can be radically supportive even if somebody's in a bad mood. But I felt in that case I needed to be an Advocate for some artists who were more vulnerable. And it was a line in the sand for me. And I said, I'm going to activate the thing that feels safest for these younger performers.

Patricia McGregor:

And if that means I need to leave or I'm going to be fired, whatever it is, that's the line in the sand. So I'm going to do that and then we're going to come back around and talk about this. And we had a very frank discussion about how I am on people's side. I was a very good assistant when I was an assistant. I used to be Ralph Lauren's assistant. I was an executive assistant for a while. I can wear that hat really well and have done so even in corporate environments. So, you know, I can be very, very flexible.

Patricia McGregor:

But when it comes to people's physical or emotional safety, especially people who I feel that they are in my charge, it's an absolute line. And I said, I, you know, to, to the person I was working with, I said, I am on your side, absolutely. But you are making it very hard for me to be on your side right now. And I need to never be asked to do something like that. And you need to know when a no comes from me, it's a very considered and very firm no. If you feel okay with that. And knowing that that's how we're going to move forward. And knowing even in me, drawing that line was a way of protecting you.

Patricia McGregor:

It was a way of protecting not only the people you, the production, all of that. So it was, you know, it was a moment where I thought to myself, well, I might get fired or I might. If the answer doesn't come back in a very firm way, I might walk away. And luckily, sometimes when people are creating, they get so tunneled vision that they're not really thinking about the bigger picture and the care. And I think it was a wake up call. And the person really, they apologized, they said they respected and understood why I drew that line and committed to accepting that I was on their side, that I was really like on their team, but that we needed to come to some alignment about some shared agreements, group agreements between the two of us of how we're going to make sure that everyone's protected in a baseline way. So that was a moment that I didn't know which way was going to go. But sometimes people really need to hear it from you straight about something that you really believe in.

Patricia McGregor:

And if it's a firm line. And for me, usually when I say it's a firm line, it really Is I always, you know, I. I will stay. But when I say this is a point at which I would walk away, I really mean it. And we've actually gone on to have a great relationship after that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, it certainly sounds like that this was something that you were passionate about, that that meant a lot to you. But was it still nerve wracking to formulate that into a conversation with this director?

Patricia McGregor:

After we kind of changed the moment, after we changed the thing that I thought was dangerous, after I said, we're not going to do that, and I actually went for a walk because I was hot at that point, I was like, I'm actually not going to be my best and most reasonable self. So we agreed to meet at a place for food after that. And I was even making the decision of, do I even want to come back and engage again? I had to have that whole conversation with myself. Do I think artistically, do I think for all of these reasons, is this something. And I could answer to myself, I really do. I really think this artist is an incredible artist. I really value a lot about our relationship and I really need to change the terms of some of these things in order for us to move forward. So I was able to walk away and get my own personal clarity and peace.

Patricia McGregor:

And peace with whichever way it was going to go. If that meant that we were no longer going to work together or I wasn't going to work on that piece, I had peace with that. And in order to move forward, I was clear on what the adjustment in terms of agreement about certain behavior and then also agreement to confirm that I am on your side. Like, I don't need to be questioned about whether I'm on your side. I need to see that trust and hear you affirm that, you know, that I'm on your side, but that being on your side doesn't mean that there are not boundaries.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And theater is certainly, you know, it is an artistic art form. But at the same time, with that artistic endeavor, we bring a lot of ourselves to it. It's a very personal experience. And so how have you been able to manage, you know, whether this relationship or another's, that personal aspect, that collaborative aspect, while also broadening it out and keeping the bigger picture and not taking things too personally, not not holding grudges, so to speak.

Patricia McGregor:

I've always felt really lucky that while a huge amount of my very, very, you know, close, dear collaborators friends are in this field, I've always. And maybe because I grew up playing sports or I have a lot of interest or or it's a intentional decision of how I want to save something for myself. I've always lived far away from the places that I work. I've always been friends with people outside of the field. I used to bartend in the East Village when I first. I used to work at Ralph Lauren at the corporate office, and bartended the East Village. Two things that in some ways there might be some intersection with theater, but really some of my core friends for 25 years have very little care about whether I'm the artistic director at New York Theatre Workshop or I'm doing a clown show for 25 people in Philadelphia. And I think there's something really healthy about that.

Patricia McGregor:

So no matter how high or low, no matter how wonderful or challenging something that's happening at your work in the field is, you have another life outside of it. So it's not all consuming. And I think that's really healthy. A, just to be able to navigate, you know, your. Your personal relationships and your relationship with self outside, and B, to actually have something to pull into the art. Sometimes I think to myself, well, if we're only artists around artists and we're supposed to be artists reflecting the whole world, what other parts of the. When. When have you gone for a hike in nature? Or when have you kind of gone to a whole other, I don't know, profession or.

Patricia McGregor:

Or geographic location so that that can feed the art that you're doing? So I. I say when I'm directing, I often joke that it's a limited democracy, so that I am very kind of familial and close. But I also know I have a position of power in a certain kind of way. And that means that sometimes I'm going to be the good guy, and sometimes people are not going to like a kind of decision I'm going to make. I'm very clear that it's around the boundaries of, as per that experience before, that, like, people are safe, physically safe, emotionally safe, but. But that there's a little bit of distance between me and the collaborators. I feel often that the more positional power you have, the more care you need to make sure to pay attention to, and that there's like a slight distance in that kind of way because everyone is emotionally involved. But, like, I need to have a little bit of a remove and make sure that I'm responsible, be centered and kind of do best practices around care and to know who are the people who feel like legitimate, close, core collaborators.

Patricia McGregor:

Where there's. And it feels like there's shared agency. I Think it's really important that people can feel a shared level of agency. And whether that's a writer or an actor, people who have long term relationships like Katori hall and I, you know, I think when you've been in collaboration with people for a long period of time, it makes for a pretty safe and durable space where you can, I always say, rigor and love. Infusing rigor and love into things is really important. So I would just say it's an interesting dance to say. It is a thing where you get very intimate very quickly in these projects. You're thinking about the big existential ideas and you're working long hours and all of those kinds of things.

Patricia McGregor:

We. And you have to be able to lean in that way in order to create the work in the best kind of way. But then to say, and now I'm literally getting on the train and going to a whole other life that doesn't. That's not interdependent on that life. The only major exception to that is my husband and I met, we're working on a show and I would often say, I don't date anyone who I work with. And he jokes that you don't date people you work with, but you can marry them. So I think that was the exception to the rule when freedom Bradley Balance and I. And I said, well, now we're just gonna, you know, we're gonna make some different rules of our own and make those rules legal.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I mean, you know, whether it's a show or a relationship, when the stars align, you kind of can't fight it. Yeah, yeah. Well, on to story number three. And there are certainly times, you know, especially in New York City. I mean, I've been there 17 years where it is a real struggle to just pay the rent while also continuing to find jobs and maintain your career. And in 2006, you were starting your transition, trying to be seen as more than just an artistic director, stage manager. You wanted to helm your own projects and do that. This was right before you went into grad school.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So what was it that made you feel that this was the time to start making that mark and being like, okay, I've done this. Now it's time to really focus on myself and the work that I want to do.

Patricia McGregor:

So around that time, I had had a couple of anchor experiences that had led me to have close relationships with some wonderful artists. I had been an intern at the o', Neill, so met a lot of amazing artists that way. I had been a Van Leer fellow at Second stage. So through that met a lot of writers, directors, et cetera, actors who I could call in to do workshops. And I had been perhaps most importantly for this question, I had been a stage manager on the Fiona Shaw, Deborah Warner, Madea. And so I had gone at a very early age to London to rehearse with, toured around the world, was bam Broadway and ended at the Theater Chaillot in Paris. And so I was a kind of vetted stage manager at that time. I was 22, 23.

Patricia McGregor:

I'd worked on one of the most renowned productions of the years around that time. And I could be calm in the face of a storm, which is I think an incredibly valuable asset. So I was asked very often, I would say before grad school that ask that I had to make some decisions about when to step away from was particularly for stage management because I was asked to stage manage things off Broadway, to assist in stage manage things on Broadway. And I was able to do a lot of those experiences, which was great. But at a certain point I said, oh, I'm starting to take my directing hat off and even my assistant directing hat off because I'm being offered more and more lucrative roles as a stage manager. And I love and respect stage managers deeply. I think they're. And I learned so much about the process but I thought to myself, oh, I could become quite good at this and have back to back offers and then it will be harder for me to open up the space to direct.

Patricia McGregor:

So I decided to do some readings and start championing some writers just before grad school. And I said, I know it's going to be tough and I know it might mean that I have to take some more bartending shifts because those are more flexible in terms of hours, but I need to commit myself to saying I'm going to be a director, I'm going to be it, I'm going to champion these writers and. And at that time I also applied to grad school because it's seemed like I either now go to grad school if I have the opportunity to go to grad school that I think would be great, or I just lean into this lane of I now have this collective of writers and actors who I feel like I can start almost self producing work even if I'm not being asked by someone else to do that directing work. And it feels like I was at a tipping point of either I'm going to become known as a very solid stage manager who used to have whispers of directing or I'm going to have to really say some hard nos to some great jobs with some great artists to be able to start pouring in and building back up. You kind of put yourself back at the bottom of the pile and you start to build yourself back up. That was the trajectory before going to grad school. And then coming out of grad school, it was more about assistant directing and associate directing. So I was no longer stage managing and being asked to stage manage.

Patricia McGregor:

But I was being given some very lucrative. I mean, if you're an associate director on Broadway, you're making more than most Off Broadway directing contracts. And so, and I can be, when I know that's where I'm supposed to be of service, I can really get behind someone's vision. And so there were people who were asking me repeated times to be the assistant or associate director. And then I thought to myself, well, I need to go out on my own, though. And I think the Katori hall story I told in the beginning is related to this because at that time where I was saying no to some of this assisting and associate work, then I got the call about her village. And it was an amazing cumulative kismet because I had been an intern at the o' Neal when Jim Houghton, who was running the Signature at that time, was there. So he knew me from that.

Patricia McGregor:

And he knew also that at a certain point I said no to stage managing some things that were in his house. And then Katori, who I had said yes to that project when I was being offered this other ad project, and then we liked each other artistically, so she was able to take that leap. And it is a big leap to get someone for a director to get your Off Broadway debut. It takes a lot. And when I look back, it took me saying actually a lot of no's to get to that big yes. A lot of no's to things that while I valued the times that I did participate and I think it's invaluable to stage manage and assistant direct and associate direct. I do think that there is a time when you have to make the brave leap to say, I'm going to go go at my own and I'm going to take this project and build these projects up. And very fortunately for me, that ended up paying off.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you're saying no, all the while not knowing when a yes is going to come.

Patricia McGregor:

Correct. Correct. And that's self producing, I think, is important because. And I say this to people all the time, and it was just very true in my trajectory. I would say you might say no to something, but what is the thing you know you can do? And that thing might be one of my favorite projects. Around the corner here is the laundromat project where there's perform and they've gotten funding for it, et cetera, et cetera. But they do performances in laundromat spaces because they say, well, there's a captive audience and some of them have some space. And I think, how do you continue to work your muscles even if the yes isn't officially being given from someone else? Even if it means you have to kind of.

Patricia McGregor:

You might do a reading series in your living room with some actors. You might do a 10 minute play in a park. You know, I think figuring out how to find your own yes to yourself once you've decided to say no to some things, but before someone has said the big yes to you. I think that's one of the most valuable ways to keep yourself going. But it is scary, you know, it's scary. And you have to be kind of self generating in a certain way. And you have to say, there were certain times where I would say, well, I'm going to actually do a survival job. But that's not in theater.

Patricia McGregor:

So that I build up my muscles so that the next thing I say yes to in theater is going to be for the role that I really want. So maybe that means I'm going to do some temp work in a legal firm for a little bit because it's flexible enough and because I don't want to reinforce people knowing me for something that I'm now ready to move on from.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And the thing about self producing or certainly starting out and creating your own work or bringing people together is persuading others to say yes to you.

Patricia McGregor:

Correct.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's one thing to find your own. Okay, no to this. No to this. And now I'm now going to go over here and how do you get people to join you?

Patricia McGregor:

I would say part of it is really showing up for people. I really, and I believe this, when I used to do readings, I would save contact sheets. Say I went to the o' Neill and I was a stage management intern. I would save the contact sheet. Liz Ann Mitchell is a great example of this. I thought she was incredible in this show. I was the assistant stage management intern for and I called her a couple of years later because there was a script I thought she would be great for. I said, liz Ann, you might not remember me, I was an intern.

Patricia McGregor:

But we're doing this reading and we might only have $10, but you're going to have some cookies and a scratch off. And it was my signature thing. I would often, like, bake cookies and give people a scratch off ticket. And so that meant everyone who came in was Maybe that was $15, because I was going to give them $10 and some cookies and a scratch off. And people remember those things. People remember how you show them care. Even if you don't have a ton of resources, People remember how you show up for them. If somebody calls me and needed a director or needed a recommendation or needed audience members, people remember that.

Patricia McGregor:

And then potentially most importantly, even if it's on a small scale, putting your all of your artistic rigor and love into whatever you do so that people can see the integrity of your artistry. And whether that's at a $5 budget or a $500,000 budget, people are paying attention. So I continued to create things, even if they were on small scales, that when somebody came, you can tell something about an artist even in five minutes, if they really put a lot of intentionality. Budgets offer more options, and sometimes those options mean, you know, a phoenix design element or some kind of element that you couldn't do with a smaller budget. But I think I gained some trust on some projects because of the artistic rigor, even at smaller budgets. And then the last thing I'll say is keeping yourself on the radar of people. There were people who didn't even come to see my thing. Daryl Roth is a great example.

Patricia McGregor:

She was one of the producers on Madea that I did all those years ago, and we happened to have a great interaction in Broadway. I had no idea who she was. I was so young, and I thought she was somebody's aunt coming in. I gave her a tour around. I was showing her how the fly system worked. I mean, and she was so gracious. She was so wonderful. And when she left, people said, well, did you know who that was? And I said, no, but she seemed very nice.

Patricia McGregor:

That's Gerald Roth. She's one of the most important producers in the American theater. And I wrote her an email saying, so nice to meet you. I apologize if anything was, you know, wasn't the right vibe. And she was very generous and wrote back. And for the next 25 years, I would invite. We're clearly now talking more collaboratively in a different way. But even when I was in my early 20s or early 30s, I would always invite her to things.

Patricia McGregor:

And she would often. She wouldn't be able to come often, but she would write back, and she said, later on, you were always on my radar, even if. And you have to find the balance of, like, not being annoying. Right. And I think it's usually best if there's some kind of authentic relationship, some kind of authentic interaction. And then I think we sometimes get a little shy about staying on people's radars. And I will often say to people, listen, I probably won't be able to come to a lot of the things you invite me to because my schedule is just packed in a way and it kind of gets built three to six months out. But write me and let me know so that you can stay on my radar in a certain kind of way.

Patricia McGregor:

And so one day when I'm looking for X, I will think of you because you've reminded me that you. You're continuing to do this, maybe a work or this, whatever work you're doing. So I think we get a little shy about that or get too disappointed if you invite somebody and they don't show up. But sometimes the yes is going to come because you, you've stayed on someone's radar, you had an authentic connection or they saw a piece of your artistry that they valued and then you didn't disappear into the numbers. You continue to show up for them, you continue to invite them and be gracious if they are not able to show up, because sometimes that's the way it goes. But I think staying on people's radar is really important.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. And remember, you can get early access to our full conversation by going to why I'll never make it.com and click subscribe. Well, that about does it for this episode. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, in charge of writing, editing and producing this podcast. Background music is from John Baartman and the theme song that was created by me. Stay tuned for the next episode when I ask the final five questions and we talk more. More about why I'll never make it.