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[0:00] Patrick Oliver-Jones: With live theater happening once again here in New York, one of the joys has been seeing friends back on stage doing what they do best. And I certainly hope to be joining them soon. But in the meantime, it's wonderful to reconnect with today's guest, Kathryn Allison. She is a singer and actress who I got to know just as she was really beginning her professional career. But she has gone on to perform in Wicked, Aladdin, and currently the revival of Company. I guess she seems to have a thing for Broadway shows with one-word titles. But as Kathryn shares her three stories with us today, being on Broadway doesn't replace the importance of mental health, nor does it make her forget those embarrassing auditions when she didn't book the show.

And it also doesn't mean that the work of inclusion is done, as Kathryn continues to push for more access and a continuing search for strong, diverse voices. My name is Kathryn Allison. I am from New Jersey, living in Brooklyn, New York, and I am currently in Company. And I cover three principal named people. Technically, I cover a fourth one, but they don't really put it up because they leave it as a secret. Welcome and thank you so much for joining Season 6 of Why I'll Never Make It, a Top 25 theater podcast featuring honest conversations with fellow creatives and three stories from their own life of artistic challenges and personal hardships. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver-Jones, an actor and singer myself who knows firsthand the ups and downs we all face. The website is whyilnevermakeit.com, where you can sign up for the Win Me newsletter and learn about upcoming guests and useful artist resources. Again, that's whyilnevermakeit.com.

[2:07] Patrick Oliver-Jones: Welcome, Kathryn. It is so good to see you again. It's so good to have you on the podcast. I am so grateful that we get to have this conversation today.

[2:13] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Patrick. This is going to be fun. I'm excited.

[2:18] Patrick Oliver-Jones: Yeah, I mean, I love how the theater community is so small. And typically, when I go to a Broadway show, I know a person or two, you know, that one, two degrees of separation we all have. And it was so fun seeing you on stage in Company. You must be having a blast doing it.

[2:34] Kathryn Allison: Oh, I'm having just the best time. I mean, who doesn't want to be around legends and people that you've admired, and then get the opportunity to go on stage with them?

[2:41] Patrick Oliver-Jones: Yeah, yeah. Oh, my thing. So I had I was a blast. It was a blast. And they're amazing. And so just the most beautiful people. Well, and I'm just glad that I got to be there on the night when you actually went on for one of the roles you understudy. So that was that was a true joy to see that. But you and I, we first met when you were just right out of college at the Muny, you know, big stage there in St. Louis in Seussical, the musical.

[3:13] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, I had just graduated that June, May. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

[3:19] Patrick Oliver-Jones: So you were fresh out of college.

[3:24] Kathryn Allison: Oh my God, I was so nervous. I was like, ah, it was fun, though. It was super fun. And like you and everybody else were so nice and kind. So that made it easier. But like, it was very nerve-wracking.

[3:30] Patrick Oliver-Jones: Yeah, it's such a fun show. Yeah. What I love about it, that it really is an ensemble show. So it's not your typical where you have your two or three leads and everybody else is just no, it's just everyone had their moment to shine.

[3:45] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, which was really fun. And I felt like we had like a really awesome cohort. And it was a great show. I mean, Dan did a wonderful job directing and choreographing. It was just so bright and colorful. And I remember walking onto the stage for the first time. What is it called? Like hot tech or sweat tech? Because you're in the middle of the day on a black stage the size of a football field. Literally. And I remember seeing that big book and like it's spinning. And I was like, this is the most incredible thing I've ever seen.

[4:26] Patrick Oliver-Jones: Right. That set was just incredible. Really great. Really great.

[4:32] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. Yeah. You're right. How colorful it was. And we were all in such crazy costumes. It was so funny. I was a hippo at the beginning. And then once I got into the Grinch, then I stayed there. How many characters? I was Turtle the Turtle. And then I was like one of the hunters. I was like a grandma at one point. A turtle with a like a Chanel-esque suit, which I lived for.

[4:48] Patrick Oliver-Jones: Oh my gosh, I love it. It was so fun.

[4:54] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, yeah, those costumes were so fun. Well, it's been really great and wonderful to see your progression from graduating college just starting out to now you've been in how many Broadway shows now?

[5:05] Kathryn Allison: This is my third now.

[5:06] Patrick Oliver-Jones: Third one, right? I'm still waiting on my first one. So see, you're already ahead of me. You're making it.

[5:10] Kathryn Allison: My God, it's insane. It's insane. But this first story that we want to talk about is actually semi-related to that as far as releasing your first debut album. And it comes at a time when you're seemingly on top of the world. You have this debut album, you're doing a release party at Joe's pub, famous venue at the public here in New York. And yet, you fell into a deep depression afterwards. So what was it that led you to that?

[5:25] Kathryn Allison: So that was a wild process, the kind of the album came out of, I had created like a five-year plan for myself after college, like one of our teachers was like, create a five-year plan, what do you want to do? And then we read them aloud in our class. And I was like, yeah, like at the end of five years, I would love to put on an album. Everyone's like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, okay. And then it got to year five and I was like, oh my gosh, I haven't done it yet.

[6:11] Kathryn Allison: The album is due, yes.

[6:12] Kathryn Allison: The album is due, I got to do it. And it kind of came at the right time that I was just, I was doing Aladdin at the time. And I'd been there for a while. And I kind of was itching to do something that had more of my self and my authentic self that I was learning to be and who I was. And so that happened at the right time. And it was great. It was amazing. And then the album release happened at Joe's pub, which is a venue that I've wanted to perform at since, I mean, since I can remember what I learned Joe's pub was, which was probably when I was like about 14 years old, seeing artists play there and people that I admire. And it happened and all of my friends and family were there and other people that I adore.

And the concert ended and I was like, wow, this was amazing. And then I went back to work and I was like, I'm extremely unhappy. I'm extremely unhappy and I don't know why. And luckily I've had a therapist for the last bajillion years. And I was talking to her about it and I was like, yeah, I don't know. And just constantly swearing. But I was like, you know what? It's that, you know, that after concert glow that you get, that it's just like that high that you receive. You're like, wow, everyone loved this. We were vibing. And you know, then you have a couple of days where you're like, okay, you know, it happened. It's that it's, you know what, after you close a show, it's like that little show depression that you get.

And it lasted a lot longer than I thought it would. And I think the realization that I came to is that I was stuck. I had joined this amazing show with these incredible people that taught me so much about this career. So many veterans that this is their like 10th Broadway show and they were still learning and balancing their lives really well. And I was not doing that well. Everything became the show. And I forgot about my outside life and myself and what I like to do and what and my friends and my family. And it was about, you know, four or five months of just like really bad thoughts, bad things in my head telling me to do awful things. And I tried to get a leave from the show and I couldn't get a leave from the show just due to circumstances.

Luckily, another opportunity came along and I was able to leave. And after that, I felt like I was able to release myself from those certain standards. I mean, I feel like when I entered Aladdin, I was 23 years old. And when I left, I was 28. And so I did a lot of growing up in that time. And I think my body was just like, it's time to leave this kind of this young person behind, this person who was like very scared of life and not wanting to do things wrong or trying to be perfect all the time. And I was lucky that I was got an opportunity to kind of expand from that. But yeah, I think I was struggling between like this college self that I was trying to uphold versus like who I wanted to become, like who my body was trying to like release myself from.

[9:52] Patrick Oliver-Jones: And you had mentioned that your mind or your thoughts were kind of racing toward bad things, as you call them. Where did your mind go? What place did you go to?

[10:02] Kathryn Allison: Oh, my gosh, just not necessarily harming myself, but definitely I was in like the suicidal thought realm, like this kind of escapism thing. And I wasn't going to do anything. But I definitely was looking for a sense of escape. And I felt like I really needed a break, not from this world, but just from like my life a little bit to kind of just figure out who I was and who I wanted to be. I remember a very specific moment that I was in costume and I like felt completely dissociated from myself. Like I couldn't remember like what I looked like or like how I like who I was. It was very jarring moment and really scary when you're like, I have no idea who's looking at me in the mirror. Like this feels like somebody else that I don't know.

[11:02] Patrick Oliver-Jones: And was that just mostly from the makeup, the costume, the role itself? Or was it also that you didn't recognize Kathryn?

[11:10] Kathryn Allison: I think it was me not being like myself, recognizing Kathryn myself. Yeah, it was very scary. Very, very scary.

[11:18] Patrick Oliver-Jones: Yeah, I would imagine so. I mean, because one of the things we love to do as actors is get lost in these roles, get lost in these characters and especially ones that are so different from ourselves and kind of explore those motivations, those feelings. But at the same time, it sounds like that this otherness that your actor self was taking you maybe to places that you no longer wanted to be, or it was so far removed from you that you didn't realize where you were in the process anymore. Did it feel like that your actor self and your human self were kind of at odds with each other?

[12:00] Kathryn Allison: It felt like what I had envisioned as my artist self, I guess, being in my life and what I ended up doing were like two different things. And obviously I'm very, I mean, Aladdin gave me everything like that I ever wanted. And I am so incredibly grateful for that experience and honored to be a part of that legacy. But I think Kathryn wanted to get back to the roots of why I wanted to do theater and who I wanted to impact.

[12:43] Kathryn Allison: And which had to do a lot with my community and teaching and showing Black people and Black women that they are valued and can be seen as whoever they want to be because that's what I was taught when I was younger. You can be whoever you want. And so I think it was pieces of that and also just burnout. I was doing a lot at the time. I did not have a day off. Every day off that I had, I was working. I was trying to get myself out there and promote myself. I had this huge fear that everyone was going to forget who I was, which is like, I don't know. I don't know where that came from. But I had this huge fear. I was like, well, if I'm not doing concerts and singing and people are not seeing the work that I'm doing, they're just going to forget about me.

So I was just tired all the time and I had no time for myself. And I'm sure putting the album together made it even more tiring because not only are you trying to promote yourself, now you're trying to record and promote this album as well.

[13:46] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. Yeah, which I didn't know how to do. Luckily, Dominic, my producer, is amazing and he helped arrange how to do it. But I had no idea how to put something out and have people hear it. And it was a lot of research that I loved doing because I felt like I was getting closer to myself and who I wanted to be. And so I think that's why the shocker of me going back to work was like, oh, I'm going back into old patterns and habits, as my therapist would say.

[14:30] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, I was just about to say that your album was called Something Real. And so I'm sure going back to this old habit, this old show that you'd been doing, was not as real anymore, because now you had explored, you had sung these songs that really meant something to you. You had really put yourself out there. And Aladdin really needs you to be something else, you know, to play all these different roles.

[14:55] Kathryn Allison: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Luckily, I was able to figure working with my therapist was very helpful in that time, kind of figuring out what I wanted to do and how best to cope as well. And yeah. With the album itself, how was it received? How did you feel about it? How did others feel about it? Did that play into this kind of feeling this otherness that you felt?

[15:31] Kathryn Allison: It was well received, at least by kind of the original plan that I had when I was talking to Dominic about it was to kind of workshop it to folks who manage people in terms of doing orchestras or certain bookers, and kind of giving them a broad range of what I can do. So that was kind of the original intent, which is not really what ended up happening, but that's okay. It brought out parts of myself that I didn't know I had or parts that I thought I wasn't really good at.

[16:07] Patrick Oliver Jones: What did you not think you were good at?

[16:11] Kathryn Allison: Many things, Patrick, many things. I am not a musician by any means. I mean, I guess in terms of vocally, I would say I'm a vocal musician, but in terms of like, I have this piano here and I'm like, I'm still learning how to play. It's really for other people to come over and we can collaborate. But I don't really play any instruments. And so sometimes I feel like I'm just a singer and it's hard for me to explain my ideas to other musicians because I'm not speaking their language. And Dominic was so great because he didn't create an air of, you know, I'm better than you because I know all of these things. He kind of was like, just tell me, just like, come with me with a few ideas and like, we'll just talk it through really slowly and you tell me exactly what you want. He kind of gave me a space to really use my voice, for lack of a better term, to really hear myself for the first time in that creative space.

[17:21] Kathryn Allison: And so, yeah, so arranging was one of those things I was like, well, I can't do that because I don't know how to use like Sibelius or like logic or anything.

[17:32] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, certainly when it comes to those technical things, I'm the same way. I can plunk out some notes here and there, but I'm not a pianist by any means. And yeah, and as far as like, when I look at the sheet of music, I just concentrate on my melody line. I don't know how to play those other things or arrange it, as you say. But it is interesting that once we're put in a situation where someone like Dominic, I've had other music directors where it feels like a collaboration, it starts to make you, oh, I actually do know something. I'm not just a singer. I know something about music. I could actually contribute something.

[18:03] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. And, you know, with this album, it was covers, right? So we were creating new arrangements of these pieces that people have heard before. So I had all of these ideas about these songs and how I wanted them to sound. And he just was like, oh, yeah, I know exactly what you're saying and be like, do, do, do. And I'd be like, yeah, that's it. So he's amazing. I could talk about him for hours. And then, of course, you know, he obviously elevated it to another space that I could never imagine. And I guess in a way it was overwhelming because I was like, now what do I do? I've done this thing. Right? Yeah. What's the next step?

[18:45] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. People are like, so the next one. And I was like, oh, like, I don't know. I also had like spent basically all of my savings, like everything that I had saved up from working at this job I had put into it. So that was a hard pill to swallow as well. Like going back and be like, I have no money now. I'm not probably not going to get any of that money back, unfortunately, because that's just the way things work and with streaming and, you know, it's just, you know, how people make money at shows is like selling merch like that's where they make a majority of their money and ticket prices. So I was like, well, I've just spent thousands of dollars on this thing that I'm never going to get back. And people want more. Oh, wow. Like, yeah, it was a bit overwhelming.

[19:39] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, yeah, I would probably start to feel depressed, too, after that, just from that alone, much less all the other things that we talked about.

[19:45] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. Now, you had mentioned that a therapist helped you through this time of depression. What would you say are the one or two things that she helped you with most that enabled you to deal with this and presumably looking on down the road as you take care of your mental health?

[20:03] Kathryn Allison: The best thing that she did was just reassuring me that any decision that I make is OK. She's like, I don't think you are in danger of hurting yourself, but if you want to go to a facility, we can do that. You need me to write a note to somebody like she was just kind of like letting me process what I wanted to do in my own time very slowly. And there are one or two times that I thought, oh, maybe maybe it is maybe I do need to like take a break and go to a facility and really sort myself out, whether it be a couple of days, a couple of weeks, a month. And I'm glad it didn't get to that point. And that was with her help of just constantly being like and some weeks I had sessions two times a week because I was just like I needed her to bring me back down to earth and kind of really ground myself.

[21:13] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, it was the reassurance, the reassurance that I. That my being is OK, I am whole like I got this and that she will have my back no matter what the decision that I make is, I also have a really. As with most actors, everybody wants to be liked and you don't want to and I don't want to disappoint people, that's my huge thing, I didn't want to disappoint my cast, my management team. I didn't that was such they were these are people that I loved so dearly and. The idea of them worrying about me and obviously my family was like so much to bear and she was like, I think if you need to go somewhere to take a break, I think they would be more. In support of that than you would think, but I couldn't rationalize that at the time, you know what I mean? Like when you're in those deep places, it's really hard to think rationally and she kind of helped me sort that out.

[22:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it's definitely important that there are times in our lives where, yes, there's paths we need to take and we need to take steps to improve and get better and do this and that, but there's also those times that are so important when we need to hear that there's no wrong answer. Right now, if you want to go this way, that way, if you choose to do this or that, both are good options. You can really do and go where you want to go and I think that that is so empowering, but also, as you said, reassuring that like, oh, okay, so I don't need to like overthink or worry that I'm ruining my life or career if I do this one thing.

[22:57] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, and I totally thought I was like, well, my career is going to end, I'm never going to work again, everyone's going to hate me.

[23:04] Patrick Oliver Jones: Isn't it crazy the places we go in our brain that are just so not attached to reality, but feel so real?

[23:09] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, it felt so, so real in the moment. And it's still, again, one of those things that I struggle with, not as deep as it was then, but you know, we always have those days of doubt of like, is this right? Am I, I don't know, am I on the right path? You know, like, what am I doing?

[23:38] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, that leads us into our second story and one of those things that make all actors doubt themselves, and that is not being cast in a role. You know, we audition, we prepare, and then we don't make it. And this particular one for you was Legally Blonde, your junior year in college. And you say that it was very embarrassing. What about it was so embarrassing?

[24:02] Kathryn Allison: So many levels. The audition, I sang a song from nine to five, but I couldn't get anyone to rehearse it with me before the audition. So I went up there and it was completely in a different key than I thought it was. So I started at, yeah, horrible. It was horrible. It's so bad. So that ended and I was like, okay, I'll save myself in the dance call. In the dance call, I had new character shoes that I was using. And in the across the floor, I completely like fell on my face, like just, just completely just like, wha-bam, like, horrible, which I will say I also did several times in my college auditions. And every time I got up and I was like, I'm okay. Don't worry about me. Oh, man, what a time.

And I was like, it's fine. It's fine. Like, we'll do the callbacks. It'll be cool. And I was like one of the few of my year that didn't get in the musical. And I was like, oh gosh. And the next semester we're going to London. So like, that was kind of it for me. I was like, it's either you're cast in this musical and then you don't do anything else.

[25:57] Kathryn Allison: So I guess I'll see you off to rehearsal, I guess. And I just remember being in tears and then, you know, now, because I live in the city, if I'm feeling a way, I'll go for a walk. But back then I had a car. So I went on like, it was so dramatic, like a car drive, and I was crying. And I was like, what is my life? But yeah, and I was just trying to figure out like, what was it? Obviously, looking back now, I'm like, Kathryn, you tanked, like you sang a horrible song. You just had a bad audition. You just had a really bad audition. Okay. It was just bad. And so, yeah, and so my mind was like, oh, no, no, like, what was it? Or maybe it was my weight. I don't know. And luckily, like I turned that terrible experience in my brain.

And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do a cabaret. I'm gonna do my own cabaret. I'm gonna have a full band. And we're just that's what I'm gonna do. And I had to ask permission from the school to do it, which was very odd. I was like, hey, like, I want to put together a show. And they're like, well, you just kind of Are you sure that's what you want to do? Like, I don't know, you seem very unfocused. I was like, no, like, that was just a spout of craziness. I don't know what happened. But I promise you, like, give me this and it'll be fine. You're like, okay. And it turned out to be the best thing for me. And it was awesome. I got to work with my accompanist at the time, Michael Lieper, and he kind of like helped arrange all the people from the music school together.

So I met all these super awesome musicians. And it was great. And all of my friends and some of my teachers came and it was just a really nice evening of community. And I got super emotional at the end. Because I my college experience was very isolating. I felt like I didn't really know what to do with me. And I and it was I didn't feel very supported by the faculty there, I'll just be honest. And it was nice to feel that at the end of this project that I worked hard on and to put together and to feel like, oh, okay. Maybe I do have something to offer this institution. Yeah, it was a beautiful moment. It's still on the internet. And sometimes I go back and like, watch mini me. It's still there. Yeah, remind yourself.

[28:41] Patrick Oliver Jones: Wow. Well, it certainly sounds similar to what you did with your album is that you were you were doing one thing. And maybe that wasn't the real Kathryn, you can do other things, you can do more things. And then this album or this cabaret comes along, and you're able to put more of yourself into it. And it seems like that that's really what you needed at that time, in order to feel at home feel like you had a place and that you that you had worth, even as a performer.

[29:14] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, yeah. Because at that point, I also, the school that I went to, we had a cut system too. So like, you know, my freshman and sophomore year, like I barely made it. Like I was on probation the whole time. Like essentially, they're like, acting not good. My grades in music class were like, horrible. I was like, I am struggling, like, I'll never get out of here. And luckily, like, I passed. And so it was just kind of hard. I was like, Oh, my God, I made it. And then junior year happened. I was like, and we're back at the bottom again. So I felt like I needed to maybe not necessarily prove myself, but kind of give them more of an insight to who I was, versus what they had just seen the past two years, like all of these things that they were trying to put on me that weren't really working.

And I was like, well, maybe if I just give them, you know, what I think I should be doing, it'll work. And I think it worked to a certain extent. So that's good. And I think that was kind of one of the first moments I was like, maybe I should trust my gut a little more. This seems more of the path.

[30:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: Because it sounds like you found a bit of leadership within yourself, because obviously taking a cabaret by the horns and directing it, and I'm going to do this song, and hey, let's work on this, you really kind of stepped into your own and had to step up and really lead to this. Did it feel like that you kind of discovered a new facet of that part of you?

[31:02] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, that's so interesting that you pinpoint that. But I do think that it was one of the first moments that I could be in control of my own destiny, or like my own curated experience. And that's something that every time I put a live show together is so important to me. Like I want people who came in being like, wow, I've had such a horrible day to leave being like, wow, I feel at peace, I feel blissful, I feel positive, or just I'm ready to go back out into the world. So that's what I hope people leave my shows with. And I think that was definitely the inception of that.

[31:42] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, certainly, whether it's a cabaret or an audition, I think that there's an important balancing act that we as performers have to do and that we have to discover about ourselves and that we can't be so beholden to the outcome or expectation of what could happen, especially with auditions. You know, this horrible one that you had, oh, I've certainly been there, where it's just like, what was I thinking? What happened? Because we certainly want to bring ourselves, we want to give everything we've got to the audition, to the songs, to the scenes. We want to give it, we want to be in that room and doing it. But then at the same time, there needs to be a detachment from that outcome, a detachment from my whole self-worth and value as a performer is not resting on this one audition. So it's a balancing act to give your full self, but not be reliant on it. What has that journey been like for you to find that balance?

[32:35] Kathryn Allison: Oh, so difficult. So difficult. And I still feel like I'm, I still struggle with that, especially when it's a project that you think is so cool. You're like, oh, I think that I would just... And when it's so right for you, it's like, that's me. This is me. I will slay this. Like, we like, come on, come on. Yeah, that's when I find it the hardest because I'm like, it's just so hard to let go. I feel like there's different things that people have said, you know, just like, rip up your sides and just like, throw them in the trash and that's it. But like, that doesn't happen for me. I've actually started doing that. And I guess it helps at least that I'm not looking at those sides anymore.

[33:21] Yes.

[33:21] Kathryn Allison: But still, the brain keeps going.

[33:24] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, I auditioned for this film three months ago, and I still keep thinking about that audition. And I'm just like, like, I want it so bad. I want it so bad. But yeah, it's a balance of what you said, like trying not to be so beholden to the outcome. And I try and just, when I'm entering auditions, just be like, I'm trying to just put my best self forward. So that if this doesn't, if this project doesn't happen, maybe there's something else, the director, the casting director thinks that I'm right for that. If I just do consistent work, like, I just want to do consistent good work. Like, if I can get that out into a tape, then that's all I can ask for at this point.

[34:14] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, I mean, self tapes are their own beast. I mean, it's one thing to be in the room, and there's that energy and nervousness that comes with the table in front of you. But self tapes, I found to be a different kind of beast altogether, the nervousness of the people in the room, and that energy is gone. But now because it's only me, it's a totally different type of nervousness, where I feel like I'm letting myself down or, wow, do I even know how to do that? Am I good at it? Like, there's all these questions and doubts that come now.

[34:44] Yes. And the perfectionism of like, I must get the perfect cut.

[34:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, because I can record this 100 times if I need to and get it right. But why didn't I get it right?

[34:54] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And I'm, you know, because I'm a singer, especially when I'm doing singing tapes, like I can hear when I go flat, and like, the music director is going to hear that and then they're going to toss it out.

[35:08] Yep, yep. When we've definitely been doing these in the audition room and still got cast.

[35:15] Kathryn Allison: Yeah.

[35:17] Patrick Oliver Jones: So there is a sense of perfectionism that can really, really get in our way when it comes to auditioning.

[35:24] Kathryn Allison: I am the peak perfectionist. So I'm like, that's my hardest battle. I'm like, we're human people. Perfection cannot happen every time, or ever, really.

[35:38] Patrick Oliver Jones: What's been the hardest for you when it comes to auditions? Because there's the two kind of outcomes. There's the one where, like that one for Legally Blonde, you just fell on your face, literally, where you just did not do well. And so you know, you messed up and you can kind of look and be like, okay, I did. Then there's the other time where it's like, no, I had a good audition. But I just wasn't right. Or they didn't call me back or where you know, you did a good job. And yet there's this kind of uncertainty as far as well, something wasn't right. It didn't connect. Which is almost easier for you to take after an audition?

[36:14] Kathryn Allison: Oh, my gosh, I guess it would depend. I mean, sometimes for me, when I have done well, and then I realized who they went with instead, it's easier for me to rationalize. I'm like, oh, you just wanted someone completely different. That has nothing to do with me. It's just like, oh, that's a completely different energy and vibe. But it's the ones that I've tanked, it's hard to get over because you're like, well, they'll never call me back again.

[36:46] Right? Well, I truly suck in their eyes.

[36:51] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. Yeah. So those are like the hardest ones to swallow. Because I'm like, well, I mean, there's really nothing I can do to change their minds at this point.

[37:00] Patrick Oliver Jones: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And sometimes it can be hardest when it's those characteristics about us like I've been too tall. I've even been called and it's ridiculous. I've even been called too handsome. They couldn't cast me. I was like, what? Like, like, how is that? That's a thing?

[37:19] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. Yeah. I was actually told that by the directors like, okay, thank you. So So yeah, there's these things about ourselves that obviously we cannot change our height, our size, or our handsomeness, whatever it is. And, and does that ever weigh on you? Like, this is something that I just am. They're not accepting me. Do you ever go there?

[37:41] Kathryn Allison: 100% I mean, for me, there's so many roles, especially early on that I wanted to play. And like, no one would even give me an audition just purely because they're like, Oh, we don't want to see a plus size fat person in that part. Oh, we can't imagine someone. I mean, that's not what they would say. But that's what they were thinking. You know what I mean? Because they're not going to say that out loud. Or like, Oh, well, no one

[38:11] Kathryn Allison: Who's Black has ever played this part? Like, I just can't see, like, you know, it's like, we need to expand our minds. I mean, I think over the last five years, we've gotten so much better. There's obviously lengths that we still need to go. But it's just ridiculous to me that there are roles that are so staunch in this, how society views certain people as desirable. And we can't expand ourselves from that, even though the audiences that come to our theater have extreme body diversity. We need to work on targeting certain groups of more BIPOC people to come to the theater because they need to see themselves in these shows. And that's why I'm so, like, thrilled that I'm a part of Company because me going on in that show and another woman seeing that, another full-size Black woman seeing that is going to be extremely impactful, as it was for me when I saw musicals at that age, or at any age, really.

And so, yes, there's plenty of parts that I've wanted to audition for. And they're like, no, no. And that's hard to swallow, too. And I'm like, well, I don't think I want to work with those people anyway. Like, it just wouldn't be fun.

[39:40] Patrick Oliver Jones: In addition to the audition story Kathryn has already shared, there's also a bonus episode where she talks about getting to audition for Sara Bareilles, as well as her experience in doing in-person auditions again. Bonus episodes like these are only available to supporters of Why I'll Never Make It. And a big thank you goes out to Courtney Potts for becoming the latest WINMI producer. Courtney actually chose the yearly subscription option, and I couldn't be more grateful for the support. So, if you'd like to help this podcast as well, then please consider either a one-time donation or an ongoing subscription by going to whyilenevermakeit.com or just click on the link in the show notes.

[40:29] Kathryn Allison: These past couple of years have certainly been called by many a racial reckoning for society as a whole here in America. But the theater community has also had its own journey in coming to terms with racial issues and addressing those. And in what ways have you found yourself affected by this as an actor and as an individual? For me, early on, my college essay was all about race in theater and about wanting to expand and needing to expand and how can we create change. And it was based off of this article that I have to find, which is so funny that the Music Man is happening now. But there was a production of Music Man that was happening in the early 2000s, and they cast Marion the Librarian as a Black woman, and everyone was like, oh no, this is not historically accurate.

It's like, what is the story about? It's about a man coming to a town, affecting change, and falls in love at this point. It has nothing to do with, first of all, there are Black people everywhere at any time. So that's the first thing. But her race has nothing to do with the journey of this show. Now, could you create a Music Man that was about that? 100%. Was this what this town was trying to do? No. They were just trying to put on a production of the Music Man that they were like, well, she's amazing. Let's cast her as Marion. So it was kind of about the juxtapositions of how people were feeling about that, and why isn't all of society seeing themselves in these productions? And then, of course, then we get things like Hamilton, and now it's not as big of a deal, but people still have a hard time expanding their minds.

[42:23] Kathryn Allison: Well, and this is coming, obviously, from my perspective, and we all can only really talk about our own experiences, and coming from a conservative Southern background. For me, the theater was this very liberal, welcoming, progressive part of a community that really accepted LGBT, there were Black actors, Hispanic. I mean, it was diverse in many different ways than what I grew up with. Has your experience been the same, separated from the rest of society? Is the theater community a better place for someone like you to be, and others that haven't found themselves in other parts of society?

[43:09] Kathryn Allison: That's a great question. Yes, I still think it is a magical community. I think it'll always be kind of accepting of the odd ones, and the people who have talent or want to share a space with people who share a collective voice about what theater does, and what theater does for people. I still think that we have ways that we can improve and be even more inclusive, and that comes from knowing the people who are leading, and the people who have decided to take this on as wanting to teach, and wanting to direct, or do whatever to create those spaces, and make sure that every child, every person that enters that space feels like they are represented and heard, and the qualities about themselves that make them special are not diminished.

Because when I was growing up, I was like, well, I don't see very many people in my troupe that look like me. I was in a part of a theater troupe situation. And the only example that I had was like, well, I guess I have to assimilate as much as I can to white culture to make it as a theater artist. And that's really hard to swallow.

[44:27] Kathryn Allison: I'm very proud to be Black, and very proud to be a Black woman in this industry, and a fat Black woman in this industry at that. And so, trying to devoid myself of my culture to make it is embarrassing and hard. What exactly makes it a white theater versus a Black theater? I mean, the fundamentals of acting, I think, are pretty universal, but obviously, how the characters and how it presents itself then can be the difference. Is that what you're talking about, and how a character is presented?

[45:01] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. I think also vocal quality. What do I have to devoid my voice of for not coming off too Black, or certain things like that? The way that I say a line. And also, when I was growing up, I was always seeing Black people portrayed one way. We were never done as three-dimensional characters. It was either they want a mammy, sassy type, or you're going to be someone in the street. There was no lawyer, or anybody who had real feeling, and had problems that they wanted to sort out, and wanting to fall in love, and all these things. I never got to see. I mean, my parents were very good. They were amazing at taking me to see Black theater that was three-dimensional, that portrayed us as real people. And so, I did get to see spouts of that here and there. But a lot of my favorite shows, they don't really show us as that, or the original people cast were not in those parts.

[46:16] Kathryn Allison: And so, yeah. So, I think that's what I mean. I don't think there's necessarily a White theater, a Black theater. I just think that there's certain things that, for me, myself, I noticed myself devoiding myself from, because I knew that if I sounded too Black, or if I portrayed myself as too Black, people would think that would be either intimidating, or that I had an attitude, or whatever variety of things that would make me unworkable, or not be able to fit into their vision of what they wanted in their show. And so, I think the more that we can have theater portray what society is really like, then we are going in a, that's the direction I want to be going in. You know, I've been in all Black production.

I've done Dream Girls. I've been in productions that solely had to do with race. I've been in productions that have nothing to do with that, even though, you know, it's always an underlying. Like, Company is a great example. Like, all the roles that I play, I'm not devoiding myself of my Blackness to play those roles. You know, I'm bringing in all of who I am when I'm creating those characters. And I'm glad that they're embracing that. And it's not a, oh, don't do that. Or else, you know, so yeah, I'm down with all of it, as long as it's done well, and everyone in the room feels heard and appreciated. I'm down with it. Respected, I'm down with it.

[47:50] Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, that is one of the great things about Company that I saw, you know, the cast is notably diverse, not only for its gender bending, you know, Bobby and other roles, but also for that racial and ethnic makeup that you talk about. Now, the original cast was basically white. So were there changes in the script and direction to make these characters ring more true now?

[48:01] Kathryn Allison: You know, direction, yes. Script, not so much. There's really only, I think there's like two or three scenes that they kind of flopped the genders of the scene, so that it's less doesn't come off as misogynistic. Because if you read the original script, now, you'd probably be like, like, right? Yikes. So yeah, so they've done a lot of that in terms of like, how can we flip this on its head? So it's more of about today's standards.

[48:43] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I think that speaks to Stephen Sondheim's just his amazingness and the fact that you can take a script from decades ago, and not have to change much, even if you change the color, the gender of the cast, that the words can still ring true, whoever is speaking them. And I think that's rather brilliant that he was able to pull that out.

[49:03] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, I mean, him and George Firth created a brilliant musical that stands the test of time, as you said, and I think George Firth's words, because now I've seen the show over and over and over again, because that's my job. His writing is so funny. And I can't even think about it in the other way anymore, because I'm like, it just would not be as funny as it is now. It's just great. They both had a great collaboration. And I'm so happy that Mr. Sondheim was willing to experiment with it a little bit and see Marianne's vision and be down to kind of play. Really thankful for him for that.

[49:51] Patrick Oliver Jones: Now you understudy three different roles within the show. You know, I've been understudy as well in both my national tours. So you and I know the importance of what we do. And yet, recently, the Broadway League president, she kind of had her own comments about understudies. And, you know, maybe that's why people aren't going to theater. This is why shows are failing. It's like, what? I'm sorry, what? I'm sorry, what? Now, she went on to apologize for her comments, but it certainly galvanized the theater community about the vital work that we do as understudies and keeping shows up and running. I would assume that particularly with this cast, and what you're doing right now, that those words hit home.

[50:32] Kathryn Allison: They did. Yes, Miss Martin said a lot of things. I mean, industry wide. I mean, at first, I just had to laugh because of course, it came at the time where it was Christmas time, like that's when we're making the most money and shows are canceling left and right. I was like, girl, like, you could have said something about everyone.

[02:29] Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, it's been so great to see your journey as you continue to meld and create yourself. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your stories.

[02:33] Kathryn Allison: Thank you so much for having me, Patrick. It's been lovely.

[02:44] Patrick Oliver Jones: Thank you so much for joining Kathryn and myself today. But remember, the conversation continues with the final five questions on the WINMI blog. You'll find a link to the blog in the show notes or by going to whyillnevermakeit.com. I'm your host Patrick Oliver Jones in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music is by Blue Dot Sessions, publicity provided by Imagine PR Group. Why I'll Never Make It is a production of WINMI Media and is a part of the Helium Radio Network and a member of the Broadway Makers Alliance. Join me next time as we talk more about why I'll never make it.

[50:54] Kathryn Allison: That the reason why people aren't coming or maybe why they're not showing up is because we're bad at our jobs or we're not as experienced. It's just insulting. It was just insulting to so many and just not the truth. I mean, I could speak. I mean, I can really only speak, I know, for everybody, but I could speak to my, you know, group. Everyone is so talented and so on their game, everybody on that show, and experienced. And so it's just like, girl, you don't know what you're talking about. And it's clear because in her response, she was like, in my uneducated opinion, number one, and then she was like, I don't make theater. Oh, my gosh, her response made me even more mad. I'm like, well, I don't make theater.

I just like, well, then why are you even talking? Like, why are you in this industry, ma'am? Like, you don't make theater. I don't know. It just, it boggled me. Yeah, I mean, because I'll go with it. Yes, there's some, for example, Company, there's only one Patti LuPone, right? If there's an understudy in, they're not Patti LuPone. I get that. That's fine. But at the same time, they're going to bring what that actor knows, and they're going to bring the skill and talent that they have, which might be totally different, a different take, a different sound than Patti LuPone. Yes, you're not going to see Patti LuPone. I get it. But for example, I went and saw The Color Purple. It was right after it won Best Revival, the Tony Award, and Cynthia Erivo was not in it.

So I saw the understudy go on for that lead role, and I loved the production. Yes, she didn't sound like Cynthia Erivo. She had kind of a huskier, deeper voice, but the role was still great. She was great. The show was great. So I mean, it was different, and I didn't get to see the star, but I saw a wonderful production that that understudy did not take away from whatsoever. And I think that's what most understudies bring. And I think she could have taken the opportunity, rather than dismissing understudies, being, that's why people aren't seeing. To be like, look, people, we're going through it right now with Omicron, and these understudies are stepping up into huge roles, and they are killing it. And you need to go see these people before they become big stars. Something like that is how you promote this industry.

[53:43] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. And the company's amazing. I love our producers. They're just the best people ever. Chris and Marianne are just great. And they're doing features on all the understudies. And that's exactly what I said. I was like, they're people that I've seen, and now they're massive stars. They're doing TV. They're doing film. I was like, how dare? How dare? But for me, I just had to take it with a grain of salt and be like, clearly, this woman doesn't know what she's talking about. And she didn't. And we know who we are and what we're doing. And I think what's also interesting is that I felt the temperature in the theater change when people were going on. I don't know if anybody else felt that, but I felt the temperature shift.

There weren't so many groans. It was just like, oh, okay, cool, which is great. I hope that continues and stays, that they realize that they're seeing something special and that they're not missing out on something. And that if you really do like the show, you can just come back. You can see it again, right? You can see it again.

[55:04] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. Yeah. Because the same thing happened when I saw A Little Night Music years ago that had Catherine Zeta-Jones and Angela Lansbury. Fortunately, Ms. Lansbury was there. She was the one I really came to see, but Catherine Zeta-Jones wasn't there. Still a great show. I mean, that's the thing, is that there needs to be a trust in the casting directors, the directors, the producers that, look, if a Catherine Zeta-Jones or Patti LuPone isn't going to be in, do they have someone who can rise to that level? They're not going to put the person who may not be ready for that. They're not going to put someone in that situation. They want someone who can be there. And so there is a place for all of us to begin, just as you began at the beauty right out of college.

We all have our places where we begin, and that's a wonderful thing. But then eventually we get better and better, and that's when we can start to step into these roles. And I think that's why I was so happy to see you the night whenever I came to Company, because had I not known, had I just been Joe Schmo, I would have known there was an understudy on. You fit seamlessly into the role. I remember watching at one moment, you were dancing and Patti LuPone was right behind you doing the same choreography. And I was like, she is working it, and she's right there with Patti LuPone, right? You're doing exactly what she's doing.

[56:14] Kathryn Allison: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. That was a really fun time. I had a blast. And what's so challenging about this show that I love so much is that you really are creating relationships. It's all about marriage. And so when you're on, you have to make a believable relationship with this person that maybe you have not been able to step on stage with them at all. And so I was just so grateful to Greg for being there with me. And yeah, it was a blast. I had a really great time, really great time. And as you said, they didn't really change the script, yet I didn't feel like you were playing a white role. You were still Catherine. You were still yourself. There was a bit of that attitude, but then also a bit of that love and that care, and then also just that relationship between you and your husband. So you're able to be yourself. You're not having to fit into some cookie cutter. Well, this is what that role needs to be.

[57:14] Kathryn Allison: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think what's so brilliant about Marianne and her team that they've crafted these parts in a way that truly can be played by anybody. And, you know, they're very staunch on, you know, as long as your objective and your point of view on the scene is clear and what has been slated out, like, go for it. Like, you can do whatever you want, as long as you're in the world of the show, go for it. And so that's been really freeing. And Susan, out of the three, the one that you saw me go on for is the one that's most like myself. Like, everything that she wears, I would wear. Everything that she says, I'm like, I would say. So, you know, it was kind of easy in that fact of flipping in because I was like, okay.

But whereas, like, Jen Samard's part, Sarah, and Nikki Renée Daniel's role, Jenny, they're a bit more devoid from myself. So it's been really fun trying to find different ways to, like, have parts of myself be in those roles. And they're so game to try anything. Like, I just did a put in for Jenny last week. And I was like, oh, Jenny's like my mom, like a high-powered executive who's, like, telling people, like, mentoring people. And I was like, okay, okay, let me bring a little bit of that in there. And Sarah's just a hoot and a half. She is fun. And I know so many women like her. And so yeah, I'm excited to dive into that one, too.

[59:01] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, Sarah was one of my favorites from the scene of that night. Just like every time she was on stage. Oh, yeah. What's the actress's name who plays her? Jennifer Samard. Yeah, she was just on it that night. I saw she was so, so funny.

[59:06] Kathryn Allison: So good. Just a bunch of comedians in that show. I just it's a masterclass, honestly, every time. So in relating it to how you felt in Aladdin, and you were with that for so long and coming out of that album release, and now you're back to Aladdin, blah, blah, blah. I assume Company is giving you a different sense. You're in a different place now with yourself, but also your career.

[59:29] Kathryn Allison: Yeah, you know, I first joined the show in 2020, which is crazy. I was gooped because the last show that I ever did when college was actually Company and I played Marta. And I was like, well, that's the last time I'm ever doing a Sondheim like putting that to bed. And so getting cast in this production and to cover these three women, which was like kind of my first real stint at covering felt like, oh, my gosh, this is a really big task. And I don't know if I'm equipped for this. And I had so many doubts about my acting ability because of college. I was like, oh, no, like, did they make the right decision? I don't know. And so throughout the pandemic, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is my time.

I'm going to go back and take acting class. And like 90%, probably 95% of the pandemic, I was in Zoom acting class all the time because I just wanted to make sure that I was getting to the level that I wanted to be so that when I came back into rehearsal, I felt a little bit more security with these big wigs. And also a majority of my career, I wasn't really given a chance to like speak words on stage, like long scenes or anything. And so that was very intimidating to me that I was like, oh, I'm going to be speaking words at people when people usually just want me to belt very loudly. So I was like, oh, I need to get that muscle going again of what that was like, because I really truly thought I was like, I will not be doing that for a very long time.

Someone will give me a chance a while from now. So it was a bit overwhelming. But I am very thankful to be with a group of understudies, particularly that are extremely supportive and are game to like run lines and play. And every time I show up to rehearsal, I feel like I'm so lucky because they're just down to clown. So it makes it a safe space to create and try new things. So yeah, it's a different energy and it pushes me every day. Like I always want to be challenged. And so this is truly challenging me to a new level. And I want to be, you know, it's that phrase of like practice makes permanent. And it's like, that's what's happening. I'm like trying to meld and shift and create. And it's been really fun.