(This is an automatically generated transcript.)

Patrick Oliver Jones:

As a performer begins their career, there's a lot of hard work that goes into maintaining momentum and stability. You have to make enough time for auditioning as well as a survival job for training, on top of networking, for seeing shows, as well as hopefully workshopping new ones. But then with some years under your belt, you progress to the next phase of work, smarter, not harder, with the goal being to stop chasing every opportunity and start being intentional about the right ones. And it is in this phase of her career that my guest today made her Broadway debut in Tootsie.

Katerina Papacostas:

Hi, I'm Katerina Papacostas. I grew up in Westchester county, like an hour outside of New York City, but I was actually living in Austin, Texas for the last five years and now I'm based in Brooklyn, New York, back in Brooklyn, although I've lived, I think in all in like three of the five boroughs now at this point. And I am an actor, singer, dancer and software engineer. Although I've had many other side hustles, but those are the titles I currently, I currently can own.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I've had the joy of working with Katarina twice, both on the national tour of Evita as well as a regional production of Crazy for your. She is the epitome of a triple threat, but in her current Broadway show, Chess, it's her acting and singing that takes center stage. With Tony Ward season underway and Chess receiving five nominations, I was especially glad I got to see this production and even better to see Cat in the lead role of Florence Vassi, because she was absolutely wonderful. And while she makes it look effortless on stage, her path to Broadway was built through years of regional theater, touring, side jobs, leaving New York entirely and figuring out how to build her own sustainable life. In our conversation, we talk about all of it, especially that part about becoming a software engineer. Welcome to season 10 of why I'll Never make it, an award winning theater podcast about the realities of a career in the arts. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, a Broadway actor sitting down with fellow creatives from across the industry to share honest stories about struggle, persistence, and the moments that change everything.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Welcome Katarina, to the podcast and it's so wonderful to get to talk to you and see you again. It's been a while.

Katerina Papacostas:

It's been a while. I'm so glad to be here. It's so nice to rec. Connect.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yes, yes. Because our first time was back in Evita. This was the national tour and I'm trying to remember, were you there from the beginning or did you come in replacement?

Katerina Papacostas:

I came in and replaced Holly and Butler. Yeah. So I was, like, six or seven months into the contract, I joined y'. All. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That was my second. Which national tour was that? Your first?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Second.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Where were you?

Katerina Papacostas:

It was my first. I was 24. It was my very first Broadway contract of any kind. Yeah. First tour. And I think I auditioned on a Friday, and they flew me out Sunday night. It was.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, bang bang.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, bang bang. It was. The turnaround was.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Which is so crazy that they do that. I mean. I mean, obviously, they were probably looking and had many auditions, but, you know, we have to give four weeks notice, and yet it still comes down to the last day when they replace us.

Katerina Papacostas:

Absolutely. I was like, final callback was Friday night, and then I think I flew out actually Monday morning. And I remember, you know, for any other contract, there's, like, a little bit of meet and greed and pomp and circumstance, But I just got a text as I got out of the airport as I landed, saying, like, here's your hotel. Find your way there. We'll see you tomorrow morning. And I was like, okay, go to the theater. Yeah. I was in, like, the middle of Minneapolis in February, which was a.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah. Anyways, it was. It was a very, like, intense and exciting little transition. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, my gosh. I was only with that tour nine months. I was from the beginning, but then I left after nine months. How long total were you with it?

Katerina Papacostas:

I think total. I mean, there's a fair amount of layoffs, but I think it was like 10 months or almost. Almost a year. Because we ran until, I think, the following. Oh, no, maybe it was less. Maybe it was, like seven or eight months. It felt longer. But I think, like, November, we were done.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, exactly.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It felt. It felt a lot longer.

Katerina Papacostas:

Tour is a special place. Yeah. Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, your first theater experience as a kid was your parents taking you to an ancient Greek theater. I mean, of all.

Katerina Papacostas:

Such a pretentious answer. It's such a pretentious answer, and I just want to.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But it's a cool answer.

Katerina Papacostas:

It's. I mean, it's very lucky. So my dad is born in Greece. All of my. His family is most. Mostly back there, so we went back a lot as kids. And there's a very famous theater called Epidavros, which is like this giant, ancient amphitheater. It's much bigger than the one at the Acropolis, and it's.

Katerina Papacostas:

They still do a ton of plays there. And so as a kid, we went. Which I think I was a miserable, whiny baby, because, like, you're sitting on slabs and I can't understand what's happening. It's, you know, like, I speak Greek now, but not well enough to understand ancient Greek.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So it was they speaking in ancient Greek?

Katerina Papacostas:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They did the play as written. I forget which play it was, but, you know, it was.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Were there subtitles somewhere?

Katerina Papacostas:

No, sir. No, sir. Why.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Why would there be?

Katerina Papacostas:

Why would there be everyone? I mean. Well, my dad obviously is fluent Greek speaker, but he needs a translator to understand ancient Greek. It's like, it's very different from modern Greek. But I, you know, there's. It's at that age too, like, the epicness of it all. And it's. It breathes itself into Greek culture in general. Like, they're just a dramatic, intense people.

Katerina Papacostas:

But I. I feel like I was given that bug very young and to have that be one of my first theatrical experiences is kind of insane. You know, it set me out.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now, of course, looking right now, looking back, like you said, that set you on a path, but at the time, did it feel like, oh, I'm interested in this, I wanted to do this. Or were you?

Katerina Papacostas:

No, definitely not. No, no. Yeah, that's true. It definitely piqued my interest and it got me excited. But it wasn't until, honestly, it wasn't until high school. I had a choir teacher who, like, insisted that my parents get me voice lessons. And then it really wasn't until, you know, whatever, junior year when you start to think, what do I want to apply for? You know, what is my major going to be? I was like, there's just nothing else. Nothing else consumes my excitement, my passion.

Katerina Papacostas:

And luckily I'd had just a few teachers who really said, like, no, this is a viable option for you. You should try.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's wonderful. And your parents, they were supportive from the get go.

Katerina Papacostas:

You know, supportive is a strong adjective. I feel like, or whatever verb they. My. My mom was very supportive and she was kind of like, you know, she was the one also talking, I think more to my teachers who were like, this is. This is not a pipe dream necessarily. She could really maybe have a chance. My dad, I think immigrant, like eldest daughter, is now going to go be in the arts. I think he was.

Katerina Papacostas:

He had a harder time with it. He had a harder time with it now. He came. It was. He came to every show, he was at every performance. He never missed anything. He was my greatest champion. And then on the side was like, you could do anything.

Katerina Papacostas:

You could make real money and have a normal, stable life. What the is wrong with you? So I think he was more conflicted, but as I've, you know, had some success, he's. I think now he's. He's able to relax into it and enjoy, so. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I think it's. I think for a lot of parents that are hesitant at first, it's like, once you actually find success, once you actually have happiness and joy in it.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you're finding your place, then. Then I think they can kind of easily be like, oh, okay, I. I guess she knows what she's doing.

Katerina Papacostas:

Was your family supportive, or did you have to sort of, like, advocate for your.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

No, it. No, it really was one of those things where my. My mother was. It's not that she was nonchalant about it. It really was that whatever I wanted to do, like, she supported my Boy Scouts, my basketball, my theater, my. Like. Like, all the different things that I was doing, she would just take me there or make sure I got there. I think being a single mother, she was like, you're safe.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You're happy, you're doing something, and I don't have to worry about you.

Katerina Papacostas:

Great. She was like, you're great. Mine.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, you're good. But also, like, both. Both her and my grandmother. I mean. Yeah. Like you said, they would come to all the performances, and they. They loved watching me. So I think there was a joy that they got in watching me do something that I was good at that I love doing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So I. I think that's what kind of made them think, oh, well, if he wants to keep doing that, great. He seems happy doing that.

Katerina Papacostas:

Oh, that's beautiful. What? Exquisite. Like motherhood and grandmotherhood. That's amazing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yes. Yeah. And, of course, my grandmother was always the sweetest, and I. I loved having her come to see the show because she was always the happiest to see me. You know, she was that light in my childhood that I love so much, which I. I think grandmothers can be.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, it's true. Well, it's like that one level of abstraction that they're like, I'm not directly in charge of your dentist appointments, so I can just revel in your joy. This is great, right?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Exactly. She was that one step removed from actually having to raise me. So, yeah, it was good.

Katerina Papacostas:

Oh, that's. Am. I love that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, let us get into your first story, since we're talking about, you know, first performances, first contracts that we're doing professionally. This was when you were 19 years old. This is back in Mac Hayden Theater in Upstate New York. So this is, you know, this is true summer stock. You're doing seven shows, children's theater. You're also cleaning toilets and building sets. You're kind of doing everything. And yet you say you were in heaven.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now, how did you feel that way with such a demanding schedule?

Katerina Papacostas:

I mean, I was an absolute just pig in shit. It was like. Also. Sorry, I shouldn't ask. Can we. Because I. Okay, great. I.

Katerina Papacostas:

Part of it is. And I think this was truly like an attempt at care and mentorship on the behalf of my department at nyu, but they had actually sat me down that semester and were like, we think maybe you've made a mistake and this isn't the right career for you and you should consider maybe changing majors.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Like, theater isn't right for you.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, like, you can't do this. And I obviously was like, crestfallen. And, you know, now in my later adult years, I'm like, what a thing to tell a 19 year old. I don't know that I would can back that choice, but I do, I. Like, they were. I do think it came from a place of care and an attempt to, you know, whatever. But then I was the only person in my class to get a job for the summer and I was like, well, I think maybe, at least for now, I'm gonna keep trying.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay, so why did they say that to you? Or why do you think they said that to you?

Katerina Papacostas:

I think so. I had a voice teacher at the time who was lovely but not a great fit and eventually got fired. So I think I was like, maybe not getting the best guidance at school at the time. And I think I didn't, you know, not to get too existential about it, but like, in our business, if you don't quickly fit into a type that makes sense vocally, esthetically, temperament wise, your personality, it can feel. You can feel sort of lost in like. Like you. No opinion or nothing to offer. You know, it can be hard to sort of figure out your creative voice.

Katerina Papacostas:

And so I think I just was in the early stages of really not understanding, like, my own voice, my own opinion, my own creative, like, offering. I'd grown up dancing and doing that competitively, but I was at school for opera and classical voice. And so it was like, I think I just didn't. I didn't offer a clear package. And like, I was still really fumbling in my own, you know. Yeah. And like finding my voice. This sounds very, you know, abstract, but.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But, no but, but, but that's what we do as teenagers. We're kind of finding ourselves as. As well as what we want to do.

Katerina Papacostas:

But, you know, these programs are very like. Especially in New York, it was as if we were, like, in class, but we were definitely operating at a, you know, as if we were on a professional level. And so. And there my classmates were extraordinary. And so I think it was just sort of like, hey, I don't know this if this is for you, because we can't quite figure out what to do with you. So then to get that job really was kind of a game changing. You know, there's. I feel like there's always those jobs where you're, like, about to quit, you're ready to be done, and then something comes along and you're like, and I'm back in, motherfucker.

Katerina Papacostas:

Like, I. Something has kept me around. And so part of it was just the joy of that. And the other part is like, you're living in a house with 15 other girls, and you're just. The only thing you have to do for all day, every day is theater. Like, there's just. At that age, I didn't know any different. And I was so.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And clean toilets.

Katerina Papacostas:

Clean toilets. Well, it feels like you're, like, paying your dues, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay, did it feel like that? It's like, I'm paying my dues. This is what real actors. The grunt work of acting.

Katerina Papacostas:

That's exactly. And like, you know, it was a shitty old house. When you flush the toilet, you could see it pop up in a puddle outside, you know, like out the window. The septic didn't work. Like, you name it, we had flying bats in the walls. But actually, it was like one of our first or second shows. It was like a thrust, kind of pseudo in the round theater. And when you sat on the edge of the stage, like the patron's feet were right at your feet, let's say, you know, it's like they're.

Katerina Papacostas:

The front row is just at the base of the theater or the base of the stage. So we had to place ourselves in the dark in the opening number of My Fair Lady. And I placed myself in the dark and I kicked like someone's umbrella with my foot. And just before the lights come up, I feel someone grab my arm and go, please stop. And as the lights come up, I realized that I had kicked an old woman's oxygen tank and ripped it out of her face. She was begging me not to deprive her of air.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So with a wheeze, please stop.

Katerina Papacostas:

Please stop. Literally, in all of my 19 year old narcissism. I saw that she had an aide with hers, so I was like, the show must go on. And I got up and kept dancing and left this woman to her own devices. Sorry. It's a live theater experience. You never know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. Yeah, sorry, gotta go. Oh my gosh.

Katerina Papacostas:

I'm the definition of a danger dancer. Like people might not survive my performances.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I mean, here's the thing. It can be very dramatic to be have actors out in the audience, but you, you never know what's going to be in that aisle when you come down.

Katerina Papacostas:

It's true. It's honestly true.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So I mean, you're meeting people as they go to the bathroom. You're meeting people who are just waiting. I don't know, they're just standing room only. I don't know, they're just watching like

Katerina Papacostas:

legs, feet out in the aisle.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katerina Papacostas:

It's a obstacle course.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's so funny. Oh my gosh. Now, but, but in the middle of, of this contract, you did get to play Penny in Hairspray. Yes, so. So, you know, some, something I'm sure that was like, big deal. Like, oh my gosh. Yes.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, huge deal. And we like auditioned for it after we got in there, like they had auditions for those roles, you know, in the area of the summer stock. You know, I didn't know that going in. And it was the first time where like Penny Pinkleton is such a funny, absurd character. And I was like, oh, I'd been spending all this time working on classical music and these dramatic pieces and suddenly I got a chance to do some comedy and I was like, this is really fun and like, you know, free reign. Just make it your own and be insane. And I remember during I Can Hear the Bells, I made it my bit that like Penny couldn't find the bells and she was just looking for them. So I spent most of the number like crawling around trying to find the bells.

Katerina Papacostas:

Anyways, when I was 19, I thought that was hilarious.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So that's, that's a bold choice. Love it, love it. No, no, I, I love finding character work early to kind of. Because, you know, there's the, the leading man, the leading lady, you know, we kind of. And like you say the classical that my, my voice teacher was came from the opera world as well, so, so that classical training, which is a great foundation, but when you get to be silly and a character and you get to have a different kind of voice that's maybe more nasally or maybe it's this or that. It'. It's such a. Like, it's so, so free to do that.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah. Yes. It's so. It. Like. And you. It. It triggers and sparks and inspires your imagination in a very different way because there's so much room for play.

Katerina Papacostas:

And you realize suddenly, like, oh, I have a lot more. Yeah, it's just more expansive and so exciting in that way.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And it's interesting that you say that, because my very first summer contract was the same thing. So I was 19 doing summer stock. It was three shows back to. Back to, you know, three shows over seven weeks kind of thing. And so, so we. We did Kismet with Rebecca Luker starring.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Hello.

Katerina Papacostas:

Oh, my God. Jesus, what a start.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So there's that Rebecca Luker. Magnificent. She was wonderful. A gem. And then the second show was going to be Joseph, and their pharaoh had dropped out. And so they had three of us come to the stage and just kind of sing through stuff. And I got it. And so I was now the pharaoh in Joseph.

Katerina Papacostas:

So that's amazing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right? So talk about a character role. Like, I mean, I'm basically going home and just watching all the Elvis videos I can to just incorporate his mannerism, you know, into all that. So I. I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed that. Yeah.

Katerina Papacostas:

Oh, my gosh. No, I think it. I think there's something really formative about getting to play like that early, early on in your career, especially in a summer stock situation where you're in, you know, God knows where, and the stakes have never been lower in a great way in the sense that, like, go to town. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, my gosh. Now. So I'm so. So I'm curious, was this experience as, you know, as diverse as it was, and you got to do all these things, did it give you then the. The confidence to keep going, especially despite what NYU was telling you?

Katerina Papacostas:

Very much so. Very much so. That was kind of once. Once I was able to do that. And you spend it such an intense amount of time. You know, it was like four months. So because we were there from, you know, I think they started performances in May, like end of May through end of August, early September. So really getting to spend that much concentrated time doing nothing else and getting paid.

Katerina Papacostas:

Not a lot, but, like, the fact that I was making a paycheck from it was so. It was the first time ever that I'd been paid as an artist. You know, I'd done like, choir gigs and stuff in high school, but nothing professional. So that really. Yeah, that was. From then on, I really felt a Lot clearer as to why I was at nyu. And I could sort of take their feedback with a grain of salt and know that I had a little bit of my own path going, even if it took a while to convince them.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And the thing is, there are those college programs that don't want or don't let their. Their students do professional while they're in the program. Do you think that that's a good thing, a bad thing?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Do you understand it?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What do you feel?

Katerina Papacostas:

No, I think that's. Ask mine. I mean, I just think the goal is to work. But I also. I loved being at nyu. I was there very intentionally. That's exactly where I wanted to go. I wanted to be at Steinhardt in the music program.

Katerina Papacostas:

But I have now seeing my friends who have gone to these programs that were out of town and were on beautiful campuses, and they were just given a lot. They were in more of an incubator, and I think they had a lot more opportunity to find out who they were as artists and create nonsense and live in more of, like, a safe creative space. Whereas nyu, just by virtue of being in a city and having proximity to all of this professional work, which was exciting, but I think kept me in the place of being a technician more than an artist. And it took me a lot longer, I think, over the next 10 years to figure out what I have to say or what my creative opinion is. Um, so I think not being able to work is dumb.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I mean, because, like, doing something professionally, especially, you know, in a summer stock, which, as you said, low stakes, is a great way to kind of. Kind of feel out what you like to do, what you don't like to do, what works for you, what doesn't work, and in real time, because, like, you. You. You do something, one show. Oh, I. Oh, okay. That didn't feel right. And you try something, the next show.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so in that real world experience. And so how did that summer stock experience shape you as you worked on subsequent contracts?

Katerina Papacostas:

I think honestly, it was just getting reps in, like, the. The biggest help was that now I understand how a production goes from a table read to a closing night, you know, which is to know that process in and out, understand what a tech process is. Also, you know, as a lady learning how to advocate and do your own makeup, talk about wigs and, like, hair and, you know, navigate costuming and start. And again, like, being. Becoming an advocate for yourself, which I think women, you know, have to do more so than guys a lot of the time, just because the costumes are often more involved. And especially with hair and makeup, there's just, like, learning how to do that for myself. And I feel like I walked into a lot more rooms with just a more professional perspective. And the creative part of our work is so precious and always our own of, like, how we want to develop a character.

Katerina Papacostas:

Even if you're ensemble spear holder number three, but without costume, lights, sound, hair, makeup, the show doesn't happen. And, like, once you add those elements, it can be hard to stay true to the creative work that you did. So, like, having familiarity with the production elements of our business made it easier for me in other professional settings to, like, stay creative, you know, be able to offer all that I want to offer to whatever role that I was playing and not get overwhelmed or bogged down by how tech works, how, you know, like, also summer stock, you just have to do it so fast. In school, you have, like, four months of rehearsal for three shows, and in summer stock, you have, like, 10 days of rehearsal for three weeks of shows. It's a very different, you know, timeline. So, yeah, getting expedient with your shit is great. And that was really, really helpful. Honestly, I was like, now I could do anything.

Katerina Papacostas:

If I can put up four shows or seven shows in four months, then, like, it only gets easier from there.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Let's get on to your second story, which is many years later. As you've had all these experiences, you. You are now going to make your Broadway debut in Tootsie. However, you were brought in a rather unconventional way into this show from the beginning. One of the readings, right?

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah. So I had done a production of White Christmas in White River Junction, Vermont, many years prior, as we all have done. Speaking of summer stock, I've worked there.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Northern Stage. Yes.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, the Northern Stage, yes. Which is such a beautiful. I mean, to do White Christmas in Vermont in the middle of the winter was like a surreal, beautiful experience. And our music director was Andrea Grody, who is an extraordinary conductor. She was the music director of Suffs. She did Band's Visit, she did Tootsie, and she was a part of the reading for Tootsie. She's worked. She worked with David Yazbeck a bunch.

Katerina Papacostas:

And so they were doing a reading. I think they had done several prior, but this was sort of, I think, the last one before it was going to go out of town. And she. I just got the offer through my agents, and I had not spoken to her in, I don't know, seven years. And I had played Judy. I wasn't even, you know, like, I wasn't a singer. I was tap dancing and, and was, you know, not that Judy doesn't sing, but it's not, it wasn't like a big singing role, but she brought me in just to be one of the ensemble singers. I think there was four of us for the reading.

Katerina Papacostas:

And there's just something magical about being in the room as something is being built because you understand the story on a different level. You get to understand the creative team's point of view. They get to know you and even sort of a peripheral way. And I actually was finishing engineering school when I got that job and I couldn't go to my graduation of engineering school because I was doing that reading. And so because of that reading, that brought me straight to callbacks for the, for the out of Town for Tootsie. And I think, you know, and I got to go in and audition to cover both of the leading women. And because I'd been a part of the reading, I just knew, I knew the whole story. I knew their temperament, I knew what they were looking for.

Katerina Papacostas:

I had familiarity with it in a way that I wouldn't have otherwise. So it really was a life changing call that she made. Andrea Grody, I owe you my whole Broadway career.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, Right. Yeah, that's so, that's so amazing. Yeah. It really goes to show. I mean, networking is a part of it, but it's about those relationships that, that, that is one of the foundations. I mean, talent is, is, of course, but relationship.

Katerina Papacostas:

But that's.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what was it that you think stood out as, as you said, you know, you, you had one of the supporting roles, you know, what. Exactly. Leading. But what was it that you think stood out that made Andrea remember you and then want to just bring you in?

Katerina Papacostas:

I mean, I can't. I don't know exactly. I also was one of those things where I was like, I don't remember doing anything in particularly profound, but she and I just really got along. I think we both shared a reverence for what we were doing and like similar levels of like, curiosity and excitement about how to work. And I think it's just when you meet people in this business who you enjoy working with, who you have kindred perspectives on the business with that then you just, they stay in your mind whether you're in touch or not. And it was such a nice reminder of like having good experiences, being kind, being like, you know, somebody that people want to work with. You never know when that's going to pay off. And not that you want to do that with the express purpose of, like.

Katerina Papacostas:

Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Of course.

Katerina Papacostas:

Not to be so transactional, but yeah, it's just like, creative, like, joyful, creative experiences and collaborations are rarer than we think and always meaningful. So I think that hopefully that's where I think we just got along and. And both love what we do a lot. So I think my. Maybe that's what brought me in. Yeah. Or she called 20 people and was like, we are at the bottom of the roller. And I don't.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Who have I worked with? Who have I worked with? You are the last name.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yes. That also might be the story. So I'll take it. I don't care either way. Either way.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

No. This is what happens. Like, someone is cast. I've been in this situation. Someone was cast, and then you're probably second or third on the list, and then you get brought in because they have to drop out. It's like, you know what? Who cares where I am on the list? I got called in.

Katerina Papacostas:

One of the most best experience I've had in my career was I got to do Julia in Bandstand at the Rev Theater. Not last summer, but the summer prior. And I got the call a month beforehand. Somebody dropped out. I was on Instagram. I had messaged Megan Lars Dominic, the extraordinary, like, writer, casting director, director. She was in Thailand with her family up at three in the morning and was like, hey, are you still doing this? Are you still doing theater? Would you want to play Julia? And they just offered it to me because I'd worked there eight years before. Like, it's just.

Katerina Papacostas:

You never know. And then it was like one of my favorite, you know, shows I've ever done. So I. Yeah, this business keeps you on your toes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, but. But to that point. Yeah. Are you still doing this? You went to back for an engineering degree, so you had left the business. Ish. Yes.

Katerina Papacostas:

Like, kind of sorta so. And it was like an engineering bootcamp. So it's only four months to do software engineering. But I had been on the Kinky Boots tour. I was playing Nicola. Anybody knows Kinky Boots? I was like, a little bored because she's on stage for like 25 minutes and just like, wears bodycon dresses and 4 inch heels and says some sassy things and leaves. So my brother's a software engineer. And I was, you know, looking at the end of the tour and I was like, I cannot come back and bartend or teach fitness.

Katerina Papacostas:

I will lose my mind. I can't do it anymore. So I. He was like, I Think you'd like this engineering thing. I started to teach myself, you know, while I was on tour. And then I came back and I was like up for a bunch of jobs and didn't get him. So I was like, fine, I'll go to engineering school. And then I, and I loved it.

Katerina Papacostas:

I really, I went there kicking and screaming, but ended up falling in love with it. So it became like a great second career.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So then what exactly is software engineering and what is your job function if you're brought in to work on it?

Katerina Papacostas:

So it's like coding basically, like writing code for any, any software that you use. And I'm what's called a front end developer. So there's like the back end which is like all your data, like when you open up your Amazon page and like it's populated with all of your previous orders and all that stuff, all that data is kept in the back end. And I work on the front end, which is like the buttons you click and the experience that you have as a, as a user. And I went to school for it. And then like as I graduated, I booked Tootsie and then I was like, all my dreams are coming true. I'm going to be on Broadway. I can't.

Katerina Papacostas:

But I don't want to lose the skill set. So I would teach engineering online during the day and then I would do Tootsie at night. Or like all because we did readings. And then we did it out of town and then we came to New York. It was like two years total. So I was like teaching engineering for the school that I'd gone to online while doing Tootsie. And then the pandemic hit and it was like, oops, I prepared. I didn't mean to, but I.

Katerina Papacostas:

So then I went full time as a software engineer. For the last five years I've been working as a front end developer for like three different startups, but most of them have like unlimited pto. So I would just leave and do a gig and then. Or I would do both for a while.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

See, that's what you have. You have to find those jobs that let you go and then let you come back. And they're so precious when you find one.

Katerina Papacostas:

Oh my God. Oh my God. I was bartending. Was that for me for like five, six years. And now software has been that recently and I, yeah, I feel very lucky to have like found stuff. I mean, although lucky part of it. But the other thing is we have to, that has to be part of the criteria when we have our, you know, Survival jobs is that they operate that way. Otherwise you have to.

Katerina Papacostas:

You know, it creates too much tension.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But also in. In some ways, it's. It's kind of like gig work because a startup is starting up, so you help them start up, they kind of keep going, and then you can move on to something else. Or if you. If you have a job.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, exactly. And it's like a corporate entity, so. But honestly, I feel like it's the same thing in theater when people have to, like, give up jobs or you have to, like, turn something down. It always feels so painful, but you really are creating an opportunity for somebody else. And it's. It is the same thing in software. Like, they will find someone else. It's going to be someone's job that they really needed.

Katerina Papacostas:

You know, it's not. You don't want to be flippant about it, but I feel like it's not if you advocating for what you need in any given professional moment is going to be someone else's opportunity, so.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Very true, very true, very true. So when it comes to Tootsie, when you realize that, okay, you went the reading, now you're auditioning for the actual show, what was that call like when you finally got the debut?

Katerina Papacostas:

You know, surreal. I had literally turned 30 the day before. I had. I was sitting at, like, this Greek cafe in Astoria, which. What else would I be doing?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Wow, how stereotypical, right?

Katerina Papacostas:

And I just, you know, I was waiting for the call, so I'd been, like, walking around with a clenched asshole for days. And I was like, they're gonna tell me either way I made it. You know, when you make it to a certain point and, like, you're like, they're gonna. I at least don't have to worry about not finding out. They will tell me. Yes. And my agents called me, and I've been with them now. I've been with them for like 15, 16 years with clear talent.

Katerina Papacostas:

And Justin Bush, my agent, called, and he was like, hey. And he had such a sad voice. And he was. He. I could kill him to this day. He trolled me, but he pretended like I didn't get it. And he was like, I have to tell you something. And I started to cry on the street.

Katerina Papacostas:

And then he was like, you're making your Broadway debut. And I was like, you asshole. It was. I mean, I. It took me, honestly, several hours for it to sink in, and then it would come in waves of. This thing that I have dreamt about for so long is real. Yeah. It was just insane.

Katerina Papacostas:

And Actually in Tootsie. In the final version, when we were in previews in New York, the show opened and it was just like the curtain would part after the overture and it was just me on the stage. It was supposed to be a fake musical within a musical, and I got to play the role who had a New York map, a New York City guide map, and I would turn around and sing the first few lines as a New York City hopeful. So it was just me solo on a Broadway stage, opening the show. And I would have to place myself behind the curtain during the overture and just stand there. And I was like, this is. And of course, David Yazbek had like, we had like a 20 piece orchestra. It was.

Katerina Papacostas:

The whole thing was. Pinch me the whole time. It was unreal.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For Beetlejuice, I had the very first lines in the show as. As the priest. So, yeah, see, I feel you.

Katerina Papacostas:

It's magic. It's such a magical thing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, my God, I love that. I love that. And, and so I'm curious, what. What did experiences leading up to that teach you about. About work ethic? Presenting yourself, you know, working. Working the audition room, but also then working the rehearsal room. Like, what did you bring into that Broadway experience that made you feel ready for it? Or. Or did you feel ready for it?

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah. What a lovely question. I. Yeah, I actually remember, you know, when I graduated college, in my mind, I was like, I'm going to have like three to five Broadway shows before I turn 30, and then I'm going to go to law school. I'd minored in law. I was like, then I'm going to, you know, walk away. Which is, of course, never how it felt or best laid plans in this business. So it took me, you know, 10 years to get my first Broadway show.

Katerina Papacostas:

And sometimes it takes many more, whatever. But, like, I. At that, I'd felt so, at times embarrassing or, you know, not proud of it, but at times you get bitter that it's like not happening the way you want it to happen. And then when it did, I was so grateful that it had taken time because I didn't have any of that panic, that blind panic that makes it so that you can't really remember the details of how the days go or how rehearsal felt, every experience I'd had leading up. And I felt grateful to have played lead roles both on tour and regionally and then also been dancer number two in every ensemble under the sun and understudied a bunch understudying Ava on our tour. And like, understudying these big roles so that in that room, I really felt like I had the reps and I trusted my own process of, like, I'm not gonna. I'm not your dancer who walks in and kills the choreography day one. So, like, I took that expectation off the table for myself, and I would let myself, like, be slow and finding the details and be slow to have it performance ready.

Katerina Papacostas:

And that also meant that, like, I knew I had to take it home and book some rehearsal space for myself and stand in front of a mirror and watch myself and film it and see what I. How I could fix it and get better. And same thing with vocal stuff. Practicing my vocal parts. I'm a big belter now, but that took me a long time to learn how to do that. And I am not a trick pony. I'm not going to walk in or, like, three Bourbons in. I sound like garbage.

Katerina Papacostas:

Like, I'm not one of those people who can just let it fly. Like, it takes reps. I have to find the placement. I have to find the vowel, you know, shape that works for my voice. On that note, on that middle of that phrase, I'm just someone who's like, takes. Takes time. And so I felt grateful for already having that process in place for myself and trusting that it will get there so that being in that room, not perfect all the time didn't scare me. That felt like, no, no, I trust that I.

Katerina Papacostas:

I know how to show up. And it'll take a little time, which

Patrick Oliver Jones:

also is the creatives like to allow that safe space for you to. To mess up vocally or in the scene or whatever.

Katerina Papacostas:

Well, and also, I. I feel like I'd learned how to. How to build that trust with a creative team that doesn't know me as well. So, like, I could either mark or let them know, like, okay, this. I'm going to get this. I'll take this home, and then you'll see, tomorrow it'll be better and different and, like, how to communicate that in a way so that there isn't, you know, not that you have to show up and be perfect every day. But like, you, they do need to know that, like, you've got it and they don't have to worry about you. So you have to, like, how do you balance your process with their need to trust you? So, yeah, I just felt like I'd had those reps beforehand.

Katerina Papacostas:

And I remember our very first preview in New York. Do you know James Moy?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I don't.

Katerina Papacostas:

Anyways, he was one of the guys in our show, and he's a seasoned vet. And he. Like, before our first. Before the opening number. Oh, no. Before our bows, he was like, hey, just really take this as slow as possible, because the first bow on a Broadway stage never happens again. And I remember thinking, like, oh, man, this whole first show, I was. I was alert.

Katerina Papacostas:

I was awake. I wasn't panicked. I wasn't, you know, freaked out. I really do remember it. And, like, that's. Yeah. So I'm glad it happened later because I wasn't. I wasn't terrified.

Katerina Papacostas:

Blinded by cortisol and a drama. So, yeah, very helpful.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I'm curious because I had a previous guest on Jelani, Aladdin, and he said something, and this was before I'd made my debut, so I was still kind of like, you know, Broadway, Broadway. And he was like, you know, stage is a stage, whether it's Broadway, it's regional. And I'm like, okay, I hear what you're saying. Yes, the work is the work, and you gotta show up no matter where you are. But Broadway, it is different. It is different.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yes, yes. And, like, we can. The craft is the same, but Broadway is its own very magical place, and you can't take it for granted if you're lucky enough. And it's luck. You know, it's not a matter. It's not a meritocracy. Our business does not reward talent. It can and it does.

Katerina Papacostas:

But, like, that's not the crate. That's not the. There's no guaranteed that you'll get to ever do it. So it is a different beat.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And comparing chess to that first time Tootsie, what does it feel like being back on Broadway?

Katerina Papacostas:

I mean, it's one of those things where I didn't know if it would happen again, especially because, like, I made my Broadway debut. And then we closed February 2020 or January 2020. And then I was like, okay, I finally got my show. Game on. Here we go. I, like, I was married at the time. My ex husband and I had, like, put a big benefit concert together that was supposed to. It was.

Katerina Papacostas:

I think it was March 14th we were doing it, which, like, was the day the city shut down. So I felt, you know, everyone has their. Like, Covid did cut everybody off at the knees, no matter what. Like, everyone's momentum was. Was shot. But I felt particularly frustrated that, like, oh, I finally got this thing, and now I. It took another couple years to even know that I could dive back in. And so I really.

Katerina Papacostas:

It. I feel. It feels very Fortunate. And I really didn't know or think it would happen again. There was a good chance that it. That it didn't. And a lot of life had happened. I was working in tech.

Katerina Papacostas:

I'd moved down to Austin. I went through a very challenging divorce for a couple years. That was really hard. And so, like, when life hits you and. And you step so far away from our industry, it does. There's always that fear of, like, oh, now no one knows who I am. Why would I. Like, there's, you know, how am I going to ever, ever get that momentum back to get back in those rooms? But luckily, you know, it did.

Katerina Papacostas:

And another music director, Brian Youssefer, who's my good friend from nyu, he literally, out of the blue, offered me the concert version of Chess that we did at the Broadhurst three years ago. And that's. That's why I'm here now. You know, it's just those calls, man, they really. The make or break thing or not, make or break. It's just the falls out of the sky thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You have obviously made some good impressions on people.

Katerina Papacostas:

I. Or I'm faking it real well. One or the other. No. And luckily, Brian is like, a good friend for. For many years, and he's an extraordinary empty musician. And. Yeah.

Katerina Papacostas:

So I was lucky. Glad to be able to step in for that and. And now have this relationship with the show. But, yeah, it's been great.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So was there any hesitancy because. Because like you said, you know, you were going through personal things, career things. You had moved to Austin. Did you actually have to think about coming back to New York and doing this again?

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah. Yeah. And it was like a slow burn because I think 2020, my ex husband, I were like, we need to get out of the city, you know, and we have this. This community in Austin. We'll just go for a year. And I had gotten my first tech job, which was actually like, very hard to get. But then it is one of those. The difference in other industries is, like, when you get the job, you just have that job, which is like, oh, it doesn't go anywhere.

Katerina Papacostas:

That's so nice. And I was so excited. It was a new industry. And I was like, okay, maybe I'm done. Maybe I'm really done with theater. And the theater was shut down for a year, so I had, like, full permission to dive into it. And about a year and a half in, as the. As New York started to open up again, and I hadn't told my agents, you know, that I was leaving or anything.

Katerina Papacostas:

I was like, oh, no, I'm not done, damn it. And, like, maybe I'm gonna have to do this forever, because I really miss it in a very visceral way. So it actually. It reinvigorated stepping away and really considering leaving. And actually deciding to leave is what brought me back because. And brought me back with a new love and appreciation for our business because I had to, like, reinvest and decide again. It's like, you know when they say in a relationship, like, you choose love every day, and I'm like, I had to choose love for this business again.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You had to rediscover it. You really did.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm grateful for it. Like, I. Obviously, nobody wanted to be yanked out of the. The hustle, you know, but, like, the Ferris wheel had stopped. It wasn't like I jumped off. It was like it had stopped, and I had to reassess. And I think all of us had to consider the idea that it doesn't come back in a real way.

Katerina Papacostas:

And so, yeah, it's like, if you love something, let it go. So we let it go, and we're back.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, is, like, you know, and getting back, it seems like a theme both. Both with, you know, with Tootsie and with Chess, that this idea of relationships. And is that something that you've had to, like, work at, or is it something that has come naturally from how you were raised and just who you are as a person?

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, I think it's definitely one of the things that I took from my parents. They both really value. It's like, a very Greek thing. My mom's not Greek, but she's, like, an honorary Greek. Our relationships are the most important thing that was always centered in our family. Not just our immediate family, but extended family. So I feel like I got that muscle memory early on, and also just the positive reinforcement of, like, when you invest in people, then your life is so much more full, and they will. People in your life will show up for you, will challenge you, will enrich your life in ways that you can't anticipate.

Katerina Papacostas:

So, yeah, I think it was. It was something my parents instilled in me. And then. And then I got to watch, you know, they led by example, and I witnessed all of that and then got to reap the benefits of that in high school and in college, you know, of, like, having these wonderful friendships and creative relationships and. And also just the reminder that, like, everyone has got. You just never know what is going on with someone else at any given moment? So, like, decency and kindness. I know this sounds like such a platitude, and, you know, I don't mean to be so. So simple, but it just.

Katerina Papacostas:

It goes a long way, and especially when you're in our business, which is not easy. It's just no part of it is. Doesn't require all of you, and sometimes that's hard to give. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, well, and also because the. The divas, the attitudes are, you know, they can be very public, and so, you know, they're certainly the. The public knows about them. You know, some. Especially some of the bigger names. But just finding real, genuine people isn't always easy in this business.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, no, it's gonna be. It can be really hard. And I like, even just if your goal is to be. If the. If even in the most, like, ambitious, clinical sense, like, the best art comes from when people are at their. Like have some sense of ease or safety. And so even if you're just trying to get the best out of people. I actually remember I did a show.

Katerina Papacostas:

I won't name the place, the director or the actor, but there was a very famous actor at a famous regional house. And the director was also the creative director of the theater. And this actor was, like. Would interrupt every 10 seconds with an idea. It was something like a different way to do the scene or some sort of bit that he wanted to do. And it was an exhausting thing that would, like, cut everybody off the knees. There was no momentum to any scene work. We just, like, couldn't get through anything without him interrupting.

Katerina Papacostas:

And she was seemingly had infinite patience for these interruptions, which blew my mind. But every, like, 11th thing that he offered was brilliant. And I. And she would use it, and I was like, God damn it. She. Not only is she being a decent person, but she is, like, maximizing the show or really letting everybody have a creative input and also making it the best it could be. Because every now and then he had a phenomenal idea and you had to get through shitty options once and 10 to get to fucking 11. And she had that foresight and that generosity and the confidence in her own work to quietly and calmly receive those interruptions and not lose the room.

Katerina Papacostas:

And when you watch people do it well, when you watch people lead a cast well, when you watch people lead a team well, like, you just hold on to those examples. And I feel grateful to have worked with a lot of, like, really brilliant leaders, you know, who just know how to bring out the best of everybody's creative energy without having to create competitive environments or shut people down or belittle them. And that's often the default tactic, and it just doesn't have to be that way. And in fact, I think the best art comes when that's not the case. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, when it's much more cooperative, when there's much more a sense of family to it.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, exactly. I agree.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Let's get to your third story. And this deals with actually a couple of experiences that you had that have shaped you as an actress. And one of these is the Great American Mousicle. It's a funny. It's a funny title, but you were 24 at the time, and it was with Julie Andrews, like, just. Just saying that I'm. I'm already jealous of you.

Katerina Papacostas:

Like, I just got chills even when you said her name. Really. I mean, she lives. She's. It's like her and Barbra Streisand to me are the greatest performers. The performers who I modeled all of childhood dreams after, basically. And she wrote a book with her daughter called the Great American Mouseicle, which is about a bunch of mice who live under theater and they have a theater underneath theater, and they turned it into a musical. And Chris Cotelli directed.

Katerina Papacostas:

Or. No, he choreographed it. And Hunter Bell wrote the book, and Zena Goldress and Marcy Heisler. I'm gonna. Oh, my God. Let's try mispronouncing your name. But they wrote the score and it was this, like, insane team. And actually Holly Ann Butler, who I replaced in Evita, had been.

Katerina Papacostas:

Had booked the show, and then she couldn't do it. And so I got called into the auditions, and it was another one. Like, I think it was like a Thursday night. And I went up to good speed on Saturday or Sunday, like, I'm on a train suddenly. And I remember I knew she was directing it. Like, Julie Andrews directed it, and her ex husband did the costumes. Like, it was such an epic team. But you're in the basement of Goodspeed.

Katerina Papacostas:

I don't know if you've ever worked there doing, like, the meet and greetings and somebody. Like, it was so cinematic to me. But the company manager, like, parted the seas and was like, oh, come over. And this is Julie, and she's just, like, sitting on a chair. And I didn't know I was going to meet her. And I think I, like. I think I started crying. I just was like, Ms.

Katerina Papacostas:

Andrews, I'm such an honor. But then we got to live and work together for, like, four Months. Because she stayed. You know, it was a new work at Goodspeed, so you're there the whole time. And it was just. But also, it was just crazy to work with her. Crazy to work with this whole team, to, like, have a team. It was my first experience of something new, of a new work that's getting changed every day.

Katerina Papacostas:

And, like. And it's a comedy, so there's just, like, the learning the science of joke writing and watching, you know, like, really everybody was working on, like, the comedy and the music, the comedy and the script. How do we still tell a story where it's funny and it's parody and we're also mice, so we're wearing fat suits and tails. Like. Like, it's so silly. Was so fucking dumb and so smart. And I really like. And the cast itself, like, it was a really special group.

Katerina Papacostas:

A lot of us are still very good friends. Yeah, I really. I feel very grateful. I feel like any show you do also in the fall where there's, like, Halloween, Thanksgiving. There was also an election. Like, it was. There was. It was an election year.

Katerina Papacostas:

There was just so many monumental moments that we all shared together. So I really. It's one of those contracts that stays very near and dear to my heart. And then I took over the lead role for the last two weeks because the gal who had played the lead left early or we got extended, and she couldn't stay. She had another job. And Julie wrote me a handwritten note like, thank you for stepping in, which I have obviously framed and obviously laminate it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Framed it. It will frame it.

Katerina Papacostas:

Sleep with it at night. It's fine.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, exactly. Right, right. It's next to your bed. Oh, my gosh. Now, obviously. I mean, just having her in the room is amazing, but what did you learn about her?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Getting to work with her?

Katerina Papacostas:

I mean, that was my first time of, like, when they say, don't meet your heroes, but this is one of those instances of, like, meet your hero and watch them work. It was just someone who was so at ease in a creative process and in a production process. And I remember one day, we're, like, in rehearsal, and she was frustrated, and she just put her. She did her Julie Andrews, like, hands on her head, and she just went, words, words, words. And then I think I fell over and died, because I was like. But she was just so. She took it as seriously as it needed to be taken seriously. And then never, ever forgot that we were playing pretend.

Katerina Papacostas:

You know what I mean? And it was so. I feel like watching someone with that Insane breadth and depth of experience and like such a legend still be so human, so personal, insanely generous. Like the show had ended and then she still mailed everyone a cake for Christmas. Like, we all got Christmas cakes from Julie fucking Andrews, like, to my shitty apartment in Greenpoint at the time, you know, So I just. To watch that level of professionalism and generosity at like in a basement in Connecticut, like from one of the great legends of our art form was. Yeah. Something I will never forget. You know, you're never like too big for your britches and everyone is still.

Katerina Papacostas:

She took everyone's creative input so seriously. Yeah. I just to watch someone be that kind and that good was. Was. Yeah. Pivotal for me. Like.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean, even if you never did anything else you did that, I literally

Katerina Papacostas:

was like, I can die now. I'm good. Whatever happens after this, we've peaked. We've peaked and we're fine. Yeah. Great.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, more recently, you also want to talk about the Thin Place. This was at Zach Theater down in Austin. And this was back in 2023. And now before we dive into it, give us a brief synopsis of this production and in case people aren't familiar with this play.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, I didn't know this play at all. It ran, I think it at Playwrights for like a few months off Broadway for a while. And it's basically the premise is this young woman, she had a very special relationship with her grandmother who would do these sort of telepathic exercises with her. And then after her grandmother passed, she believes that she has this spiritual connection that she's now honed with her grandmother. And she meets a medium, a professional medium who sort of self proclaimed is a bit of a fake, but she believes that she is helping people through their grief. And that what she's offering is like a really meaningful tool for people in their times of need to connect with loved ones. Whether it's real or not, it's still healing. And so it grapples with her story, with her grandmother, her relationship to this medium who she admires.

Katerina Papacostas:

And like, she is actually a believer, but this woman who does it professionally is, you know, kind of on the fence about it. And then there's some like, political intrigue. And then the last sort of third of the play is. Is like a super spooky moment because you find out that like this girl's mother has disappeared and they don't know why. And you go to the visit the house anyways. It's like it gets very dark and weird in a really fun way. And there's some jump scares and some fun, like tricks, like theater tricks happening with the audience. We're like, so my character, I played the lead gal, and it's a play.

Katerina Papacostas:

I never get to do plays. Everyone looks at my resume and is like, go tap dance. Like, no. And I'm also a terrible tapper. But, like, they're like, go dance and sing and do some, you know, like, other shit. This is not your. This is not your bag. But it was just right time, right place.

Katerina Papacostas:

Richard Robichaux, who is a phenomenal actor and director and professor as well, but he's had moved from LA with his family. This was like. He'd worked with the Zach, I think, before, but had directed and had come back to do this piece. And he actually was very sweet. He was like, just so you know, I had cast this role already, but then I saw your tape and it was yours. And like you said, and changed my mind. And he was like, I'd cast it with someone else. And I, like, changed, which was such a meaningful thing for me.

Katerina Papacostas:

Cause it was like, I think 40 pages of monologue of just her talking. And so I had never gotten a chance to dive into a character like that, let alone to do something, like, scary and weird. And then at one point, she sits on the stage and is listening to a conversation for 30 minutes. She doesn't say anything, which was like, a great practice of, like, listening and, like, active listening on stage. But I. And we ran for six weeks, so it was a long, you know, a longish run for a regional gig. And it was one of those first moments where I'd gone through this very challenging divorce. I was actually in the middle of that divorce when I was, you know, doing this play.

Katerina Papacostas:

And I felt so grateful for having a big life experience and now having something to channel that new relationship. Like, you know, I think when you go through tragedy and experience grief, like, you. It cracks you open and it changes your relationship to human. Like, the human experience and your own humanity in general. And I suddenly had this amazing medium to channel that into. And this, like, you know, without having to put on the singing, dancing part of it and the costuming part of it. It was like I wore one jumpsuit. I never left the stage for the full 90 minutes.

Katerina Papacostas:

I didn't have to worry about anything else but, like, telling a story and living in this character. And that's kind of a rare gift when you do musicals, because that you don't. You have. It's an exquisite thing to contend with. The music and the dancing and the, and the costumes of it all. But it's also, I, I, it's why I want to, like, always encourage people, like, go play the lead role in a random theater in the middle of nowhere because you will tap into part of your own, like, creative voice and perspective that you wouldn't otherwise have permission to touch, usually. And, like, that will carry you. If I hadn't done the Thin Place, if I hadn't then done Bandstand, I could not step on the stage and play Florence, you know, and like, step in for Lea Michele on a Broadway stage.

Katerina Papacostas:

Like, I would not have the clarity and confidence to do that in a way that I would feel proud of. Or not to the same degree, I don't think.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I mean, just simply as you said, that long monologue that you have to do. Pages and pages, right? Yeah, yeah. I remember in college we did Six Characters in Search of an author. Yeah, a very heavy piece that. Yeah, yeah. It's very symbolic, but it's also kind of meta because the whole time it's about these actors on stage meeting the actors that they're playing. Anyway, it's a strange, super cerebral, like,

Katerina Papacostas:

if I remember, I haven't very.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so it's about life, it's about the art. And I was playing the father, you know, because this family joins. And so I was playing the father. And there's this one, this one long monologue which is like seven or eight pages. And as soon as I saw that, I went, how the hell am I going to memorize all this Again? Coming from a musical world, I'm used to, like, seeing bop, bop, bop dialogue,

Katerina Papacostas:

dialogue and song back and forth and that. Exactly. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, right. Instead, seven or eight pages to just dig into cerebral, like philosophical stuff. And so I just remember sitting on my couch at home and just like page after page, line after line, just learning it bit by bit.

Katerina Papacostas:

Well, and it's like such a fun. You realize how rich, like how much you have to flesh out those stories in order to keep somebody or just like actually convey the story, let alone keep an audience captive, you know, for that whole thing. It's such a fun experiment. It's such a, like, fun use of another part of your, your creative mind.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, because as musicals, we have different anchors. Whether, whether it's the, the dance scene or whether it's a particular song or particular moment or that 30 second scene you have between two songs, you know, whatever it is, we have these anchor moments that we can. But when you have a long monologue or these long scenes that go on for 10 or 15 minutes, you find a different anchor. And within that kind of like what you were saying, if you're figuring out how to tell the story, then you're figuring out how to remember the story so you can actually say the lines.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah. And what's the story that's not there that you then have to personalize and like, no one will ever know, but you have to know your relationship to it the 10 years prior to the character saying those words. Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so when it comes to stuff

Patrick Oliver Jones:

like that, as you were doing these different contracts, were you always aware of the kind of actress you wanted to be? Or has that changed depending on the role or just depending on where you are in life?

Katerina Papacostas:

Such. Good question, Patrick. I, I think I, I feel like I had an idea. Maybe this is also just like personal development, like being a 20 something versus being in your 30s. And now as I rapidly approaching my 40s, like, I, I feel like especially in your 20s, you have a concept of what you want, of the person you want to be and the artist you want to be. And it's usually also framed around some of the people that you admire. And I, I. My friend, a couple friends now that are psychologists and they were like, there's this.

Katerina Papacostas:

A friend of mine was telling me that your 20s is called like me versus world or something. Or basically you're just like trying on a bunch of personality types that have appealed to you in theory and seeing how they fit and seeing do they feel true or can you execute in them? Like, you know, whatever. You basically try out different things. So I feel like in my 20s I was mimicking a lot and trying on different personalities. And I was a redhead and I was like also, I think attempting to be more of an ingenue because that's what I was like brought up in our craft and especially in school to want to be. And that that's the ideal is like play these leading roles. And honestly, Evita was one of the first shows where I was like, oh, I think I'm a different type of. I think my temperament has like more cigarettes in my mouth.

Katerina Papacostas:

Like, I just, I think I'm a little brassier, a little ruder and have a little more like that. My default of my go to is just a little harsher or a little more abrupt. And. And then I feel like I've had different jobs that helped me find. When you find that flow state, when you find something that fits you really well, then you like, it helps. It's like a little breadcrumb to help you figure out who you are in that moment. Because it does change. Like you said, I think some of it's shaped by me finding roles that I loved, like getting to go on for Sandy, the role of Sandy in Tootsie, who's like, this whack job, you know, like, phenomenal, exquisite, chaotic actress.

Katerina Papacostas:

It was such a funny, funny role. And she was so earnest and funny and serious at the same time. And I was like, oh, I love this. This is really where I eat, is getting. Do that kind of stuff. So, yeah, sorry, this is not a coherent answer. Basically, yes, it's both where I am as a person and then also the trial and error of figuring things out in any given role that I've been given the chance to mess around with the stuff that works and then letting go of the things that I thought I needed to do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I mean, it goes back to something you said earlier, is that had you gotten your Broadway debut at 20, you wouldn't have the same appreciation. You might not have even had this. Certainly the same skills or just experiences to bring to it that you have in your 30s.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, big time. Big time. And including, like, friendships and relationships. And, like, I do feel grateful, very grateful now to have, like, bartended for so long and, like, taught fitness and done weird production jobs and, like, all of those things, you just meet a lot more people. You have a lot of experiences. You also meet a lot of people that then give you fodder for, like, what the human experience is, is that you can then bring into your. Any given role.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I mean, well, that's something us as actors do. We always remember those, like, you know what? Especially in New York, I mean, just people watching is. Is crazy. But the different people you will meet or work with, it's like, okay, if I ever need to do that character, that. That's who I'm doing.

Katerina Papacostas:

It's you. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Which is. I've like, there are. There's. This is not an apt metaphor, but I say it all the time where I'm like, I'm not. I'm not a shower. I'm a grower.

Katerina Papacostas:

And I'm like, it just takes. Takes me a while to come into it. And I do feel like now I'm starting to hit my stride in terms of leveraging all of these experiences and getting to use them and not create characters because of what I think the expectation is, but more bring my own experience to them and collaborate versus perform in that process, if that makes Sense?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it makes total sense because I do this in auditions and I mean, auditioning is great, especially if it's a cold reading, to kind of like go, go with your instincts and, and to have that muscle built up so that your instincts are, are firing, you know, as you're doing auditioning. But at the same time, I've had to learn to let go of that first thought and that, that can be hard because it's like, well, this is how I said it and, and felt good and that was good. But what if there's a change? What if there's something else that I can bring to it? And so letting go of that first impression of a role or a scene or whatever can be hard.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, no, that's perfectly put. Or like whatever you think that they're looking for. It's so hard to strip that from your, that filter because it really ends up being something that like, holds you back. And every time I'm in class or like doing an audition class, they're like, who are you trying to impress? Who are you trying to please? Like, unless you walk in and do what you want to do, it's just never going to read as well.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so you had mentioned getting to go on for Lee Michelle and I got to see one of those. I, I don't know if it was one of your first times, but, but I got to see you go on and I mean, yes, you were a leading lady that night. It's not like there's Leigh Michelle and then, oh, well, we have this other girl, she's fine. No, you took the stage and it was absolutely beautiful. And I think what we've been talking about, this idea of the experiences and the life that you bring to it enabled you to be that. So, I mean, I can only imagine in your head and in your heart the pounding that was going on, but from audience wise, it looked like you commanded the stage.

Katerina Papacostas:

Oh, thank you. I mean, that's the goal, is to fake it, you know, I think. When did you come? Do you remember it? Was it December, January or February? Like what month that would have been?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it was in December. Yes, I think.

Katerina Papacostas:

Okay. Oh, yes. I think that was my second time. First or second time going on. Yeah, I mean, I was freaking the fuck out. I was losing my mind, you know, But I, at the same time, I knew, like, I knew Leah had dates on the books because she had set aside time for family stuff for vacations with her kids, like from their school or whatever. So we knew that. I knew the dates pretty well in advance.

Katerina Papacostas:

And this was one of those moments where I just moved from Austin. I was living with my parents for the first few months and commuting from Westchester. And I was like, I am just going to give myself permission to disappear into this prep and, like, not try and multitask and not try and, like, do other things or see people. I'm not a really good. I'm not like a deep dive person. I'm a real, like, apertures wide, jack of all trades, gal master of absolutely none. But I. I let myself close the aperture, put on my blinders, and like, every time I had free time, I was booking rehearsal space.

Katerina Papacostas:

I did countless voice lessons, tons of coachings. I just. I was like the la. I really don't want the first time I go on to be like, I'm flying by the seat of my pants. And just by the nature of putting up a new show or in previews, where the rehearsal process is so intense, tech is so intense, there's not enough time. I knew that we wouldn't get a new rehearsal going up to previews, and I just was prepared that in previews, if anybody gets sick, that's it. You're just gonna go on that day and game on with no rehearsal. So I did a ton of prep, which luckily never happened.

Katerina Papacostas:

Leah's unreal. She is, like, so extraordinarily consistent and amazing. But consequently, by the time we were in rehearsals and by the time we got to my debut, my Florence debut, I. I felt as ready as I ever could have been. And I was like, if I can. If I can have any fun that night, that'll be the win. I just want to be able to enjoy at least a little bit of it. And I enjoyed a lot of it.

Katerina Papacostas:

Of it. So it was really, like. It's the biggest role I've ever done, aside from Ava, which is honestly. Actually, that was the hardest role. Much harder because there's so many costume and wig changes. That thing was such a fucking beast. But this, I. I was actually able to, like, tap into the dramatic circumstances most of the time.

Katerina Papacostas:

Even that first night, which was really. That was the goal, was to be able to, like, be present in it. So, honestly, I had a great time. It's the most fun I've ever had on stage is playing Florence. It's bassy. I mean, it's just unreal.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, well, I mean, I mean, it's. It's such a. Yeah. The character herself, she's so sure of herself, but yet she's trying to pull him in. She's trying to, like. Trying to hold on to something.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, well. And it's just rare to get to, like, I sing in every part of my voice. I'm singing my, like. Like, legit soprano land. I'm screen belting. I'm singing pop ballads. So you get to use every part of your voice. And then as a character, she's, like, kind of funny, also super serious, very strategic, and then really messy and emotional.

Katerina Papacostas:

And, you know, to have such a complex female character, which is such a credit to Dani Strong, our book writer, and obviously, you know, Benny and Bjorn and Sir Tim Rice, you know, they just, like, created this really rich world. And you just don't have a lot of female characters that are flawed and fearless and tender all in one show where she gets to showcase all of those sides of herself. Not to, you know, get too feminist about it, but a lot of times, lady parts are either, like, they're strong, so they're mean, or they're sweet, so they're, you know, like, docile. And this just is not that at all. It's just the full gamut, which is an insane gift. It's so fun.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I mean. I mean, when we did Crazy for your, she's that same kind of role as.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean, she has a strength. Strength to her.

Katerina Papacostas:

Oh, big time. Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

No.

Katerina Papacostas:

And not that there are. Not that those entrepreneurs don't exist, but just that sometimes it's. You get stuck in a lane and. No. Oh, my God. Polly is like. Talk about roles that are. Yeah.

Katerina Papacostas:

Other dreams. My God. Yeah. That was one of the most fun contracts. And Parker Essie is, like, one of the greatest people on planet Earth, so, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah. He was a joy to be directed by him. And I went into it. I mean, look, I don't want to have to think about dance. Keep it simple, keep it light, keep it fun. But if you give me something intricate, I'm just going to be worried about that the whole time. So he kept my Bella Zangler just very light on his feet. Very simple.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I was like, thank you.

Katerina Papacostas:

So brilliant. And that's so funny. And like, God, I hope you get to play that role forever. It's like. It was so funny. Oh, my God.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Again, it's discovering the character, you know? Yeah. The leading man, the one who gets the girl at the end is fun. It's nice. But getting to be the character who's zany, who's crazy, who. You never know what he's going to say. That's just a joy.

Katerina Papacostas:

Oh, My God, it's the sweet spot. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So being in chess now, it's going to run through the summer. And what has this process, you know, we've kind of talked about these different points in your career. And now that you're here in this particular Broadway show, what have you learned or what are you taking from this particular show and experience?

Katerina Papacostas:

You know, the first bit of it is just heads down. And I feel like only in the last couple months have I been able to like, have an opinion on anything. Because you come out of the chaos of like, you know, getting the show up. You know, you get through previews, you open the show, then I had my debut a month later. So I was like, heads down for that. Then it was a holiday. So only recently have I started to bring my head above the water and realize sort of where I am and take stock. And I think it's funny, we have such a spectacular range of experiences in our ensemble, particularly for the women.

Katerina Papacostas:

We've got our insanely phenomenal veteran, Katie Weber, who. This is her. She's been working on Broadway for 20 years. I think this is her 12th or 13th Broadway show. And then we have our wonderful Broadway debut, Regine Sophia, who graduated in May, and this is her first. And she's just, she's like one of those wildly talented, lovely, loving people. And it's so lucky to have both energies because you've got Katie, who will keep our feet on the ground and is like, everybody, take a breath or also advise us. I'm like, no, no, this is not acceptable.

Katerina Papacostas:

Like, here's where we need to advocate for ourselves or here's where we need to take some stock. Meanwhile, Regina's just walking around doe eyed like it's Broadway. And you, you need that magic, that energy, that enthusiasm. It helps remind you on like day 10 of tech when you're tired and pissed. Like, I remember we sat next to each other during tech and it was like literally one of our last 10 out of 12. And I'd been commuting again, so I was like, tired. I sit down and she was chatting with me and I was like, regina, I'm so sorry, I'm a little tired today. She goes, why?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Why? You're on Broadway, ma'. Am.

Katerina Papacostas:

I was like, you'll find out in about 15 years. I'll tell you why. No, she, I mean, she's incredible. So anyways, it's. I feel like I. I've been reminded of the magic of this, but I was telling Regine recently, we're talking about you Know, just this career and our relationship to it. And I really feel like you constantly have to reassess why you're doing it because it requires, like such a level of investment on different levels and you have to create so much opportunity for yourself. And kind of relentlessly, like, that never really goes away unless you're really lucky.

Katerina Papacostas:

But even then, you know, I think even at, like, the highest levels of success, you still have to generate the next gig, the next, you know, experience. And that requires you to remember why you're doing it. And I feel like part of me, because I'd left the business slightly, I'd left New York for so many years. I really loved my life in Austin. I've had phenomenal community down there. I was like, like playing with a country band and, you know, like I had a whole. And I was a full time software engineer just living a different life. That coming back, I was worried that either this was a fluke or I wouldn't want to do it anymore.

Katerina Papacostas:

And I feel like this has reinvigorated my passion and desire to, like, put my foot, like, pedal to the metal and really go for this again in a real way, in a meaningful way. And it kind of feels like, no, I'm going to be an artist for the rest of my life and I'm just going to have to keep figuring it out. And so unfortunately for me, like, I've been called to it and I. It's not going away. And I was like, oh, maybe I'll go on for Florence and I'll be like, box checked, Move back to Austin. Go be like, I did the thing, I checked the box and I'm sated. And it was the opposite. I was like, oh, no, I love this so much and I just want to do it again.

Katerina Papacostas:

So, yeah, I think that's the big takeaway is just reinvigorated my love for it and my desire to, like, make sure it's part of my life in a serious way indefinitely. So for better or worse, probably to my father's infinite dismay, but, you know, poor guy.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you for listening to why I'll Never Make It. For bonus conversations and early access to episodes, visit why I'll never make it.com or check the link in the show Notes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I'm Patrick Oliver Jones, and this theme

Patrick Oliver Jones:

song was created by me with additional music by John Bartman. Join me next time as we talk more about why I'll Never Make It.