Patrick Oliver Jones:

In my 30 plus years of performing, I've had my share of injuries and setbacks. Just a couple of years ago I was offered a role in a dream show of mine next to Normal, but I had to turn it down because of vocal issues and in other shows I've ended up in physical therapy for months just to get back on my feet again. It's one of the harsh realities of being a performer. Our body and voice are the instruments we rely on and when they give out, it can put a pause in our career. Sometimes permanently, but usually just temporarily. And my guest today knows that struggle firsthand.

Jennifer Apple:

Hi, my name is Jennifer Apple. I am a native New Yorker who still resides in New York. I've gone and come back and I am a classic multi hyphenate. I am an actor, a podcast host of the Empowered Artists Collective podcast. I am an acting coach who is who specializes in monologues and the BFA MFA audition circuit as well as a writer.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Back in 2014, Jennifer was performing in Fiddler on the Roof when she sustained a serious back injury that took a long time to recover from, but she didn't let that setback stop her. Just a year later she made the bold choice to leave New York and pursue her MFA at the American Conservatory Theater in San Francisco where she expanded her training and even studied physical theater and Commedia dell' Arte in Italy. From there she created the Empowered Artist Collective, a community and podcast supporting women and non binary artists in the theater industry. And she's continued to grow as an artist, carving out her own path through both triumphs and challenges. I'm Patrick Oliver Jones and thank thank you for joining me on season nine of why I'll Never make it, an award winning theater podcast where I talk with fellow creatives about three stories or moments of personal struggle and professional hardship. Subscribers will get additional audition stories as well as early access to the episodes. The website is why I'll never make it.com where you can subscribe, donate and learn more about the podcast. Again, that's why I'll nevermakeit.com.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well welcome Jennifer. It is so nice to meet you. So glad to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming today.

Jennifer Apple:

Thank you for having me. I'm grateful to be here.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now. What I love about theater is such a small little community and you and I know several people, you know from Beetlejuice Tour, Mark and Michael Byron. So it's just wonderful to meet new people that already know the people you know.

Jennifer Apple:

I love it. Yeah, it's the degree of Separation that isn't even a degree anymore. And it just becomes this insular little bubble for me. The longer I've been in this career. That's been a really special moment of like, okay, you, this. You label this one place or opportunity or show or whatever, and it's like, here's a roster of humans that I might know and do you know them? And the likelihood is. Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. It's one thing that I love. Because, like, you were with. With Mark specifically on the Ben's Visit tour, correct?

Jennifer Apple:

Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. How long were you with that tour?

Jennifer Apple:

It was supposed to be the first. We originated the tour and it was supposed to be the first full year, and then Covid shut it down. So we were probably on the tour for 10ish months by that point.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay.

Jennifer Apple:

And, yeah, I'm obsessed with Mark. He is such a good human being. Shout out to Mark Ginsburg.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Now, we had the associate conductor from the Broadway tour, Jeff Tice, on the podcast menu. Did he come out to the tour at all?

Jennifer Apple:

No, but I know Jeff. Again, this is like one of those connectors of the things. I don't even know if it was initially through band's visit, probably, or if it was like, BMI or like new works or also like, as I teach and coach. I know, you know, he was at Ithaca for a while. It's just like, there's been like, these little connectors. Jeff's awesome.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Between the acting and the coaching teaching sphere, which tend to intersect especially with us actors. Yeah. As a lot of us go into coaching and doing different classes and workshops. And that's something that you've really been enjoying doing doing. Especially newcomers into this business really get their footing.

Jennifer Apple:

I mean, I'd say that I had been teaching pre my MFA and then post my MFA or even during. That was really a huge. I wouldn't even say a shift, but like a really intentional doing. And I. I started coaching one on one for BFA and MFA auditions as I graduated. And then soon after that, I was on the tour, band's visit tour and going around the country. I was teaching workshops and master classes that I was kind of preemptively scheduling as I was coming around the country. And that was mostly in breaking down text work and a lot of scene study, acting, the monologue or song.

Jennifer Apple:

And then once Covid shut everything down, it was a very purposeful like, okay, this is actually something that I don't just kind of do. I really do do this. And I have a degree to teach also. So let's put that to good use. And so the pivot was really intentional in 2020 of like, okay, I do this. I now that we're all in virtual land, I actually have access to more human beings. Let me coach, teach masterclasses, workshops, one on ones. And I do this thing called monologue sourcing, where I find monologues specifically for people.

Jennifer Apple:

And there are programs especially for, you know, BFA folks that, you know, they find them their monologues so that they can audition for said programs. And I do that as well for myself as well as for another company. And most adults and also people who are professionals in this industry don't really know where to find monologues. And so this service is something that I'm really proud of and also doesn't go by type. It's really just like who you are and me finding pieces that then you can use wherever. So I've been. Yeah. Doing my studio, I guess, officially at least seven years.

Jennifer Apple:

6. It's been a while.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I assume that coaching others informs your own craft as well.

Jennifer Apple:

A thousand percent, yeah. A thousand percent. Yeah. Because you have to, in order to communicate, you have to actually know what you're saying, and meanwhile what you're saying, and you have to be specific in that. And so it can't be arbitrary. It has to be very like, okay, this is what I know, or this is what I feel, or this is what I see, and how do I communicate that in a way that is both effective and also empathetic and also very self aware? And. Yeah, it only allows me to then reflect that back onto myself. It's.

Jennifer Apple:

I'm very grateful for it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Because obviously your students, and they've had their own light bulb moments, but I imagine even as you're teaching, you get your own light bulb moments.

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah. A thousand percent. A thousand percent. Those are the best that you're like, oh, I've been saying this so many times. And finally. Oh, right. That's actually what I'm saying.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It actually sinks in. Right. Yeah. I love that. Well, let's get on to story number one. And this is something that I think any actor in the business goes through at some point an injury that you sustain, something happens during a performance. And this was during a production of Filler on the Roof that you did that was around 2014 or 2015.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And this one involved your back.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So what exactly happened in the show?

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah, so it was in rehearsal or tech leading up to it, and I was playing Seidl at the time and part of the choreography that we had was, like, right before, miracle of miracles, you know, Matal's like, oh, my God. Yay. And the choreography was, you know, when you're a kid and you, like, hold, you crisscross your arms and you hold onto somebody and you both crisscross and you both lean back and spin. That was the choreography of, like, we did it. Yay. And he was supposed to spin me. I think it was either counterclockwise or the other way. Either way, I anticipated what was one way, and he went the opposite.

Jennifer Apple:

And I literally felt a full, like, pop in my back. And I was like, I'm not okay. And I remember going back to. It was a dorm room at the time that I had combined, you know, like two twin beds into a queen, king, whatever, with a little foam on it. And I went down and lied, like, horizontally on it. And I was like, I. I actually can't move, so this is cool. And I either called my company manager or stage manager and was like, I can't move.

Jennifer Apple:

Help. And so we had to go to urgent care in the local town, and they gave me a steroid shot in my butt. And then they prescribed me oxy that I was really afraid to take because I had been prescribed that when I got my wisdom teeth taken out. And it was the worst experience of my life. And so I was like, I'm not going to take this.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How did it affect you, specifically the oxy?

Jennifer Apple:

When I had my wisdom teeth taken out, it made me desperately nauseous. And so I ended up get giving myself dry, like a dry socket from the pressure of the vomits. TMI friends, hey, this is what our bodies do. Yeah. So I was like, I don't ever want to go back to that experience ever again. So I was taking way too many Advil or Motrin or, you know, Aleve or whatever it was. And I was double. That was summer stock.

Jennifer Apple:

And I was double booked that summer doing a production of Spamalot afterwards, playing lady of the Lake. And I remember, you know, I was. My body was not what it needed to be, and I needed to do these two parts back to back. And I started then doing a lot more. Like, I. I found myself a chiropractor. I was doing pt, and at the time, I was not union. So that was also part of it, where I didn't benefit from any sort of workers comp.

Jennifer Apple:

And I didn't have any sort of, you know, ability to calm the union and be like, help. This happened on the job. And I think that that was Also a really big learning curve. And to this day, I still have. I mean, my relationship with my chiropractor is one that I love and is necessary, and the PT that is involved, and I do dry needling and acupuncture and a lot of yoga. And that injury that I sustained over a decade ago still is something that I am so cognizant of as I continue moving through the world and certainly through my craft. It's really. It deeply, deeply impacted me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, certainly, I mean, us as actors, it's not just, you know, if you're a singer, you know, obviously your voice is very important. But actors, our body is our instrument, and so we have to be aware of it. We have to be like, any little thing that's off, we probably notice it in ways that, you know, maybe an athlete would notice. But, you know, normal Joe Schmo probably doesn't notice little things that happen to their bodies. But for us, if one little thing is off, they were like, wait, wait, what's going. What's wrong? What happened?

Jennifer Apple:

Even. Even in my chiropractor sessions, you know, I'll be like, I. I can feel it so in my body. And he's a very holistic worker. It's not just like, crack, crack, crack. It's like, okay, it feels like my hip is out, and he'll go to my, like, opposite ankle. You know, it's like that kind of vibe of we're really operating through things. And sometimes he'll give me an adjustment, or sometimes he'll put me in a position.

Jennifer Apple:

I'll be like, no, I know that there's still something that feels like maybe my mid back right by this part of my spine is off. And he knows that I know my body so deep will find a new position. And it's like, I am always 100% correct that there is something off, and I know where it is. And the amount of times he's been like, yeah, the only other people who know their bodies this intimately are athletes. And it's a hundred percent true. What we do is beyond athletic. And I think we take that for granted more often than not. And we just are like, yeah, I do this.

Jennifer Apple:

It's like, no, you've. You've had to season your entire career and life to, like, get to this point where you were able to put your body through the same thing over and over and over again. And that repetition, that does wear and tear on your body in ways that we're not even fully aware of until we're kind of out of that repetition.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absolutely.

Jennifer Apple:

You probably know that doing Beetlejuice, like, 8,000.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, of course. Well, and what's so interesting, that because you talked about repetition, and for, like, two or three years, a lot of us during COVID had no repetition. And so it was almost like, literally starting from scratch again once theaters reopened. And so I know that my own body had its own kind of adjustment, like, oh, this is how I move again. This is how I do this. And Beetlejuice, I'm doing a fraction of what our dancers are doing. But even just the different moves and different things that I'm doing, I'm noticing my body going, okay, we need to not do that way today. We need to do it a different way, Making those adjustments day of when your body just isn't feeling it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And fortunately, we do have a physical therapist with us, and she's been a godsend to help all of us.

Jennifer Apple:

I think there's a misnomer, especially when. When we're young, and I think the verbiage and conversation around it has shifted a lot, thankfully, since when I first started, but around there being a deep stigma around injury and sustained injury and needing to push our bodies to a point where it's unsustainable because we can't call out or because we don't want to be a burden or because we don't want to seem like we're weak or we're afraid of what that. Actually. The impact of what that seems like when we express it, the. The ramifications of that. And I. You know, I really. I wish that I could have told myself an earlier version of myself earlier that, like, you know, you taking for granted the fact that you don't need to stretch or, you know, you not actually verbalizing when you're feeling in pain or just stomaching through stuff.

Jennifer Apple:

Like, we don't have to do that, because down the line, if you are trying to do this for the rest of your life as a career, not as a hobby, as a career, that is your job. And your job requires you to be honest with yourself and also seek out the tools and resources that will allow you to sustain the marathon that is doing this for the rest of your life. I just. I think, you know, even just talking about this and you posing it as a question is really wonderful so that people can hear that. I'd say I haven't done a, you know, a survey, but, like, at least 95% of artists have sustained some sort of injury that has impacted them in ways that are small or large, and that they don't realize will potentially become.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Larger down the line, especially as a singer. That's probably the thing that I've been focused on the most, even more than my acting. But I still use my voice in acting even when I'm not singing.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And it's.

Jennifer Apple:

Now you're using it here.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Exactly, exactly. Constantly, Constantly in conversations. Like it's. So it's something that I have to be aware of. I've even gone to speech therapy. Not, not because, you know, I need to learn how to speak again, but just like how to stay on the voice and how to use it properly and not wear it out and you know, just these different techniques that you can do in order to, as you say, to sustain over and years of a career. And I will say it has been interesting. I'm glad to see a shift from this show must go on at all costs, push through a dude.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

There is some good to that, but also it can be to the detriment of some people's bodies and careers. But then the pendulum in some people has swung the other ways where it's like, I can't do show. And it's like, okay, you can do show. You're just not feeling it today. So it's finding that middle ground of like, okay, I'm not 100%, but I can still do show rather than no, I need to take time out and rest.

Jennifer Apple:

I think there's an interesting thing that I didn't know until I was on tour and doing again the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again was like the A show, B show of it all. And you know, I think there's certainly different philosophies on the way in which people approach this. But for me, you know, a B is still a really good grade. An A is an amazing grade. And if on a certain night you need to give a B show rather than an A show, that is not you failing or not showing up, it's you showing up in a way that allows you to still do the show in a really beautiful way, just maybe not to your full 10th degree of doing it. And that more often than not is more sustainable. And that could be a B plus, it could be an A minus. There's a gradient between them, but just recognizing that you're.

Jennifer Apple:

You don't have to be doing the exact same full out show every single time. I might get flack for saying that, but like I, I think the dial of what full out means for somebody is a lot smaller than what we think it is. And so just like, instead of you, like, fully, I don't do these, but like, you know, but ma kicking your face with like rapid fire, like, we can do, we can still do the kick your face, but it doesn't have to extend with rapid fire in order for you to do it. You can go a little bit more gentle with your batma. Like, that is still giving the choreography. It is still doing your doing, doing it with intention, but you' not giving the same oomph that if you were to pull that every single night over and over and over again for a year plus, you will feel that impact on your hip, I'm sure. I would imagine so.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Jennifer Apple:

I've.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I've never been able to touch my face with my legs.

Jennifer Apple:

So, yeah, I think both of us are not qualified to talk about this, but that was the only example that came to my brain.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But no, I. I think it's interesting doing tour life versus, you know, a regional theater. You. You really do learn that day after day after week after week of like, how to sustain. And, and, and you're right there, there, the baseline. There's what we were given choreographically, the blocking, the staging, there's the baseline. And so as long as we deliver that, great. That's the B, maybe even the C.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Especially with a show that just keeps going eight shows week after week after week, you have to know where that baseline is, make that the best baseline it can be. And then hopefully most nights you're able to give more add on top of it, really bring yourself into it. And so, yeah, some people may call that, you know, you're half assing it, but at the same time, no, I'm just. You're not.

Jennifer Apple:

Not deliver. Like, I think you just said it perfectly. It's like there is the baseline. We are saying you are giving the baseline, and that is still you doing your job. Hopefully you are giving board adding on top of it. You know, if you are giving just extensively the baseline for a long period of time, I think there's like, questions that we can ask ourselves. Well, why is that? You know, like, why have we not felt inspired or plugged in enough to be able to even give just a little bit more than just that? That's the larger question and investigation worth having. But the baseline is still like, you doing the job.

Jennifer Apple:

And I don't even know if that's like the good phrase like baseline, because it somehow seems like it's, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I just, I think it's just, it's Just having a standard, it's like this is, this is where we are. This is what, you know, it's, it's.

Jennifer Apple:

The correct it to do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Here's the step, here's the song, here's the lyrics. Do those. And then the artistry that we bring, the craft that we bring as individuals, that's what tacks onto it and makes it correct, which is why we're cast. That's why they liked us over somebody else. You know, we brought something different. So it's a matter of finding that balance, of being able to. To enjoy it, to do it night after night while, while maintaining yourself so that you don't, you know, wear yourself out.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean, I know that there, there's, you know, again, going back to the dancer world because it's, it's so relevant in the fact that they're often given something that looks great in rehearsal, but eight times a week may not be sustainable.

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So they have to figure out a way to, oh, wait, what is the safe way? I can do this every day. And then, you know, add a little flair to it every now and then when they can.

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, as we get into story number two, this was in 2015 when you decided to leave New York City and go to San Francisco to get your MFA at the American Conservatory Theater, which is a well known respected regional theater, but also training ground for a lot of great actors. And so what led you to want to get your mfa?

Jennifer Apple:

I had been working professionally and pretty consistently since I graduated from undergrad, mostly regionally, in musical theater capacities and a lot of new works. And I really desperately wanted to be taken more seriously for TV and film and plays without me singing. And the mentor of mine at the time was like, you know, you're kind of too young for the roles that you're actually probably going to book. And she's not wrong. Even to this day, like, I still think I'm like aging actually into the things that I feel I want to be doing. But at the time, she was like, look, you may as well invest in yourself and in your craft to go back to school and get your mfa. And I was like, never thought about it, really? And so I kind of just threw some, painted a wall, and I was like, all right, if I'm going to do this, I know that I need to not be in New York. I knew that if I was in a program that was in New York, I would have one foot out the door the entire time because I' see all my friends auditioning, which is what I had been doing.

Jennifer Apple:

And I was like, all right, if I'm going to do this, I have to really commit, and that kind of maybe means you need to leave a little bit. And I got into a couple, and it was a really tough decision. I was in final callbacks for a Broadway show and also had gotten to these programs. And I was like, all right, well, what are you doing? And I remember reaching out to the head of act, their MFA program at the time, and I was like, this is my dilemma. Help. And she's like, let me put you in touch with somebody. And she put me in touch with this kid in the program who was the most cynical person that ever existed. He.

Jennifer Apple:

And also, I got to, like, know him. He's probably one of the most brilliant actors I've ever met, but the most cynical person. He was like, you're going to hate this. You're going to hate this, you're going to hate this. You're going to hate this so much. All these different things in this program, however, you're going to get the most incredible training. And I think because he had no pretenses and he was so honest with me, I was like, that's what I needed to hear. And she knew that.

Jennifer Apple:

And I think there was something about that whole exchange for me that I was like, cool. There's this level of a understanding who I am and that I. I'm not somebody who wants any sort of, you know, bullshit, frankly. You know, I really want to be told honestly and truthfully. And also, I forgot to mention, he also was in a similar predicament. And he chose grad school, where he was working all the time, and then decided to leave that to go to grad school. And she knew. And he also didn't care enough to, like, try to make it seem cool.

Jennifer Apple:

And I was like, all right, I guess I'm doing this. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So what was the other school that you were deciding between Art.

Jennifer Apple:

So it was the Harvard program. And I had thought that I was going to pick that because I loved the idea of being able to say, I have a master's from Harvard from an ego perspective. And that program ended up shuttering pretty soon after we ended up going to grad school. And I also. When I got there, I didn't have a similar. I didn't feel like I was going to be challenged the way that I think I felt I was at act. I wanted to feel like I didn't know anything. I wanted to feel like I was going to be uncomfortable.

Jennifer Apple:

I. I knew for myself that I wanted to be in a room with people who knew far more than I did and that I was going to be pushed. And I was. And I, I think ultimately the shift for me that I didn't realize until I was kind of in it and arguably meeting prospective MFA students as they came through for auditions was that if you were thinking about going to get an mfa, yes, you get this incredible training, but really it's more about just really being truthful and honest with yourself about who you are as an artist and like really taking the mirror and looking back at yourself and seeing your habits and seeing your fallbacks and seeing where your insecurities lie with no judgment, but just really like being very, very clear about, like, okay, cool, this is, this is how you're kind of plugging through things and this is what you're doing. And do you want to adjust this or do you not? But now you're at least self aware around it. And, and I think the other part of it too for me is I now feel without the arrogance in it. But truly, I think before an mfa, there was a little bit of an apology in my voice in that, like, I didn't go to a BFA program. I went to a BA program, although I did, you know, major in theater, acting and directing.

Jennifer Apple:

Double minored creative writing, philosophy. Huge. Liberal art. Liberal arts. But I didn't have that BFA to be like, oh, yeah, I went through this extensive training that people would recognize with a big stamp. And so there was a bit of a chip on my shoulder around like, yeah, I'm an actor, but I would kind of be apologetic. I think about it without even really realizing it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Do you think that mostly had to do with. With like, confidence?

Jennifer Apple:

Thousand percent.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

With just your own understanding?

Jennifer Apple:

I mean, the. It wasn't reflective in the fact that, you know, I was working so clearly I was doing something right. Like, it wasn't that. But I think there was an ego part of myself that didn't believe it. You know, I believed in my voice, believed in my musical theater training, but I didn't fully believe, like, my acting ability was what was booking me work. I think I believed, like, my voice was kind of the thing that was getting me through. And I don't know whether that was true or not, but at least within myself, I didn't fully believe it. And if I were being honest with myself at the time, it was maybe a little apologetic.

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah. And so post the mfa, I can confidently say whether people like how I act or not is irrelevant. But I can confidently say I'm a brilliant actor. I know that. And I, I know the training that I received. I know the skill sets that I have, I know my pitfalls and what I do to, you know, try to do things strategically or not. Like, I'm a very self aware around my process in a way that I think only empowers me so that I can call bullshit on myself when I am phoning it in or I'm not fully showing up or I'm afraid or I'm having imposter syndrome or whatever it is. I'm so aware of my doings.

Jennifer Apple:

And then I also am so aware of the training and the skills and the tools and the resources that I know to then really instill more confidence and grounding and clarity on the material that I'm then going to show up with.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And it sounds like this, this goes back to our conversation of baseline. It's like we all as actors, we have these defaults, we have these baselines that just kind of get us through this audition or this rehearsal or whatever. But it sound like this MFA program kind of rearranged all that. It's like, no, here's a better, more sustainable, a higher baseline for you to achieve and shoot for.

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah, it was for sure that. And also just like me believing that I can give myself that baseline, I think there's a lot for so many of us that we feel in some ways that we have to stay small and that we don't deserve to maybe be as grounded present as we want to be or deserve to be. We all, frankly deserve that. Every single person deserves to take up that space. But I think we're taught somewhere along the lines, or at least I was, that somehow me taking up that space, it should not happen.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I think it's not even just confident. I think it's fear as well. It's like if I make this choice, that might be the wrong one, so I'm going to hold back a little bit and make this safer choice.

Jennifer Apple:

But yeah, externally and internally for sure. Exactly.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It happens both ways. Yeah. And I think that we get into our heads especially. I know for myself and auditions, I really had to get out of the mindset of what do they want? And forget that and be like, what do I want to accomplish in this? Make sure that I'm accomplishing what I want to give to this role. Own that room for the 90 seconds or five minutes, however long I'm in there. It's really saying, have I accomplished what I want to do?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Whatever they Want.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I will never know what that is, but all I know is what I want.

Jennifer Apple:

And sometimes they don't know either. And so why try to be a thing that they don't even know yet until you show up as yourself with all that you are and do so that they then have an idea of like, oh, actually, yeah, that's the thing that we were looking for. We had no idea.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And it takes us as actors so long to really realize that and, like, own it and really believe it.

Jennifer Apple:

I know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. It's so important that we do that. I mean, because you mentioned your undergrad, and that was at Muhlenberg College in Pennsylvania. How would you say your training was different from that college to your mfa?

Jennifer Apple:

I'd say that I got real training. I'm not. I don't mean to, you know, belittle Muhlenberg. They've also had a lot of, you know, shifts and transfers in their own, you know, university structures. I built myself my major and minors, you know, like, major double, like I did. I built all of that. And I. There were certain professors that I definitely felt taught me more than others.

Jennifer Apple:

And I think that is the same for most students in universities everywhere, that something stick. Some things don't. But I think that the training itself was a little less preparatory for me about the professional part of the industry, as opposed to just like, maybe, like, playing with the craft a little bit. Whereas in my MFA program, and I. I also chose it specifically because of its deep roots in classical work, in Shakespeare, of which I didn't have as much experience with. And for me, you know, it's kind of like I started singing, and my first. First voice teacher was an opera singer and opera coach, and I had to, at, like, 7 years old, sing opera. And I hated it.

Jennifer Apple:

But I knew that, like, you know, then I get to sing, you know, a little Sound of Music at the end of it, whatever it was at seven, you know. But that classical foundational training is completely transferable for me in terms of all my other skillset. And so the classical text work that I really got at ACT really laid the foundation for me about taking that into any sort of material that I have, musical or otherwise. And I did not get that extensive training in my undergrad. And also, again, just like, a bit more of the wherewithal around the fact that this is an actual direct preparation for a professional career. And frankly, I chose to go back to an MFA program. It's not required for everyone. Some people it's their journey.

Jennifer Apple:

Some people it's not. And I never thought I was going to do that either. But I think the choice in, you know, graduating undergrad, moving back to New York, doing regional theater for 3ish years, and then choosing to go back to get my mfa, there was a lot more of me having agency in making that decision. As in, it wasn't just like, you go to college and you do the thing that you love and you're good at. It's like, no. I am opting to move across the country to be in an incubated space with, you know, 11 other incredibly talented human beings every single day for many, many, many, many, many, many hours, doing all sorts of things in a grueling, intensive way that is. Is because I want to be there in a very particular way. So I find that.

Jennifer Apple:

That too, for the students in my class in my MFA program who went straight from undergrad directly into their mfa, we had very different experiences because they had not yet been out in the world in a way that, you know, I had and a couple of my other classmates had that. We were like, we're choosing to be here because we know what we're trying to work on.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Was that difficult, though, because you had been working, you had been auditioning, you had been booking. Was it difficult to leave that behind for the years doing mfa?

Jennifer Apple:

Yes. And I think, you know, it was very hard because you're still seeing New York happen. But I think the interesting thing that, that I didn't fully anticipate was like, oh, my God, it's three years. That's so long. And it's like, truly, when I tell you that I came back and it was like no time had passed whatsoever, and any relationship that I had had picked up right where I left off. And it's not like these casting directors forgot who I was. You know, like these, these things that we have. The idea of time is strange, and it's this nebulous thing that I think we put a lot more pressure on.

Jennifer Apple:

But at the same time, you know, relationships are. Relationships are relationships. And I, as, as far as I'm concerned, if you are nurturing them in a truthful and honest way and you are still communicating with people, time kind of means nothing, especially as you keep getting older. And, like, I look back and I'm like, what did I just do the past six months? So three years is actually less time than I thought it was. And I think it is. But, yes, I'd be lying if I didn't say it was hard to the pros and cons of choosing to go so far, I wasn't necessarily in the pulse of it. And at the same time, because I was, so far, I was really able to focus on what it was that I really wanted to receive while I was there and really stay present with what was and also allow myself to learn about myself in a different environment. And I think, arguably, as storytellers, which is what we are, we need to have vast, hopefully, human experiences so that we can pull from those in order to continue bringing towards our art.

Jennifer Apple:

And so, by removing myself from this place, you know, and then obviously coming back by removing myself from New York and that ecosystem, there was a different perspective that I was able to glean that I probably wouldn't have had if I stayed here.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I'm curious what your first audition was like back after that mfa, you know, especially compared to, you know, you. You did your undergrad, you got your bachelor's, then you. You started auditioning and doing things. What did that audition feel like compared with your first audition back after the mfa?

Jennifer Apple:

It's funny, I don't remember my specific audition. One of the first was the band's Visit tour. And so clearly it worked. Like, I, you know, I. I had, at the time, the breakdowns illegally. And I saw that they were looking for an offstage female cover for Bands Visit Broadway. And my relationship with Tara Rubin Casting or Now trc, was deep. That was the company that I was in, like, final callbacks with.

Jennifer Apple:

And so I literally did Headshot resume drop off with a little note that was like, here's all the reasons why I am right for this show. And a couple weeks later, I got an audition for it, and I, you know, was called back to roller skate. And then my journey ended. And then a couple months or weeks later, they came back like, we're looking again for Broadway replacements as well as tour. And I was like, well, I don't want to tour. I just got back and. But there's no way I'm booking this. Like, I'm not gonna book this.

Jennifer Apple:

And then. But they're like, tell us if you don't want to do that. And I was like, well, I don't need to tell them because it's not gonna happen. I just wanna, like, do good work and book the room. And then here we are. So that was one of my first auditions back. And also one of my first TV gigs that I did Unwrapped was with David Caparelliotis. And I went to, like, an open call, and they were asking for scenes, and I said, I don't Wanna do that.

Jennifer Apple:

And so I did a monologue instead. And. But that's what I mean. Like, there's a little bit of an audacity that I think I had afterwards that I was like, that actually this is what you want, and that's not what I'm going to show up doing my best work with. And so I did a monologue, but I still used their reader that they were offering as my scene partner, because that's what a monologue is. It's a scene. And I had them laughing, which also was very different than, I think the open call kind of under. It was kind of like an understanding that these are more serious.

Jennifer Apple:

And I was like, it's not my vibe right now. And a week later, I had an audition for New Amsterdam, and then I booked it. And so these all also happened, like, pretty soon after I came back from my mfa. And so I think there was a little bit of audaciousness in a very true. Not like, just to like, f the system. It was more like, no, this is how I'm going to be best. Showing up is me just telling you what is right for me at the moment. And if that's not for you, then that's.

Jennifer Apple:

That's cool. But I'm of service for this and I really want to show up truthfully, and I do believe that that helped and worked.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So it wasn't just the craft.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

There was like a mindset shift as well.

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah, huge. That's what I mean. Like the mfa for me, yes, there was the craft for sure. But it's really like, did I. It was a moment to, like, really have all my own stuff reflected back at me and to really sit with it and recognize how I'm showing up, up. And is that what I want to be doing? If it's not, what can I shift? That feels organic and natural and truthful for myself and I. Anybody who comes to coach with me and they're like, I'm going through this MFA process, like, arguably, like, I will help you pick your monologues through, you know, monologue sourcing. Ultimately, you choose which ones they are, but, like, we'll work on them, we'll do your coaching.

Jennifer Apple:

But, like, the most of my coaching with these clients, and certainly for BFA as well, is your headspace. It's like, how are you energetically showing up to this process for you? So that when you exit this room and you. And you give all you've given, how do you know, regardless of the outcome, that you feel seen, respected within yourself and that you have shown up the way that you want to show up, like, so that you truly feel like I. That they are so lucky that they got to experience me in those five minutes. Lucky them. And that you genuinely mean it, because that's what. Like, we have so little control in this industry, and what we can control is that little bit of time that we get to perform, and we don't get to do that often either. And so if you have the 90 seconds, five minutes that you get to show up and perform for these human beings who get to be graced with your brilliance and your presence, like, the least you can do is give yourself the autonomy to show up in a way that you feel in alignment.

Jennifer Apple:

And it's hard. I mean, look, I'm not saying it's like, this is, like, the easiest thing to do. It's so hard and so hard.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

No, no. It's easy to talk about a thousand percent. Much harder to apply.

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah. But to continue cultivating that as part of your craft as well, to be. To be investigating in conjunction with the work and the material that you're prepping, to be investigating, how are you showing up? How would you like to show up? What are the ways that you can bring parts of yourself into this room that doesn't cost you, that also are exciting, that that makes you feel joyful? Like, how can we come into these spaces a bit more with that energy so that when you leave and you want to get yourself a little cookie, you deserve it because you showed up for yourself. Like, what a gift.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And if there's one thing I love after audition is getting my favorite food, whether it's a cookie, whether it's some pasta, pizza, whatever it is, I love treating myself after.

Jennifer Apple:

It's like, really a Pavlovian. It's like, you do this really well, baby. I get you a gift, and you're like, here's a little chocolate chip cookie from Schmackery's or whatever it is that you want. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Sit, beg, roll over. Okay, now you get your treat. Good job.

Jennifer Apple:

Thousand percent.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, for story number three, I mean, this is something. I mean, during the pandemic, all of us actors, we were just looking for creative outlets. We just needed something. And so for you, you created Empowered Artist Collective. Now tell us about your inspiration for this.

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah, so the Empowered Artist Collective started as an incubator program, and now it's this podcast. We are currently in season three with over 120 episodes. But backtracking during that pandemic summer, when I was coaching and Teaching and had really done that pivot. I had this kind of light bulb moment that really shouldn't have even been a light bulb moment. But I was coaching and teaching mostly these young folks on their monologues and their songs and their text work. And I had this moment because the through line for all of them was the same, that nobody had any life or business skills to sustain this career. And I didn't claim to have them myself, but it's like we are all in this real moment of trauma and paralysis and coping and holding, and we don't have the skills to move through it. And why are we not giving our artists the tools and resources to empower us to actually be able to sustain this as a career through these ups and downs that are perhaps macro but also also perhaps micro.

Jennifer Apple:

And so we started the Empowered Artists Collective for women and non binary artists Internationally. We ran five cohorts that were like two and a half, three months each, virtually where we had panels and workshops and art shares for art and process and accountability partners.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You're kind of glossing over all this, but setting up each of those was not easy.

Jennifer Apple:

No, no, it wasn't. It wasn't. It was a hustle.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Like figuring out, you know, internationally. You say that. I mean, just figuring out these different cohort. I mean, figuring out the. The kind of things you want to talk about, the kind of programs, the kind of things you want to teach. I mean, obviously there's a lot went.

Jennifer Apple:

Into this, a thousand percent. I had at the time when it was an incubator program, when I had this idea, there was one person who I had in mind, and this was this woman, Elise. And I knew it was her because we had very different skill sets. She was more like. She loved a spreadsheet, she loved the organization. She also like and, and she. But she was also. She's such a deep creative and she comes from more of like a dancer perspective.

Jennifer Apple:

And I. She is completely the Ying to my yang. But we compliment each other. And I had not worked with this. I probably had met her maybe like five or six times in my life. We swung in a similar circle, but she was. It just like rang true. And I, like, prayed that she say yes.

Jennifer Apple:

And she did. And I think the pairing of the two of us with like the idea sharing between us and also the. The ability to implement from her skill set with my way of communicating and also like both of our networks together, you know, I had a lot of students from different programs that I had taught through or my own coaching that I also was able to kind of funnel a little bit into it and had at the time a dance company, like a program that she also had other folks. We kind of had our own people. But yeah, we sat down and we're like, well, what are the objectives and what are we trying to do? And so, you know, it ranged. I'd say we had different kinds of conversations and depending on the cohort, we either used the same through line and wanted to make sure that that was always a pinnacle of a resource that we always had for all of them. And then sometimes we had different conversations depending on the group or depending on the need. But they always pretty much ranged from like mental health and wellness and physical wellness, budgeting, finances, like how do you navigate that as an artist? And then that we would have heart conversations.

Jennifer Apple:

So these would be about shame, resilience, imposter syndrome, like the stuff that all of us go through and we think we're alone in, but we're not. And then we would have maybe more like how to balance your multi hyphen itself and all of your hats or how do you use your activism self within your artistry, career, craft things. So a headshot photographer or casting director. So we really, we had like umbrellas of what we thought were important for these long term goals, ideally of empowering these artists, but yes, the implementation of getting people and finding the humans. And we also had, we ingrained within it deep scholarship cohort positions so that it was never a financial hurdle for folks. I think that was a huge thing that both of us really wanted to make sure was a part of our ethos because we had encountered that as artists in so many spaces of like, you're spending this amount of money for this little bit of time or I can't afford this, but I really want to do this. And this would benefit me X, Y and Z reasons. We really wanted to ensure that that was also met.

Jennifer Apple:

So the building of it was I'd never done was definitely a hurdle. And also I am so desperately proud of it. We have so many of these artists who have come through that have become roommates, collaborators, besties, support systems for one another. And they've all gone off to do some incredible things wherever they are. And it's really cool to know that they were a part of this community. You know, I just did a panel at NAMPT the other week and this girl Amanda, shout out to Amanda, was one of my cohort members. I had taught her in a different program prior to that and now she works for namt and when they were trying to do this panel about and like, and they needed a podcast person, she was like, Jennifer is your gal. And it's like here I was in a position essentially like facilitating some sort of, you know, community for her and here she is now bringing me into her community.

Jennifer Apple:

And I just, it's, it's really, for me, what a beautiful gift and a symbiote, symbiotic moment around like that's ultimately what we're trying to do. Right? Like empowered artists. Collective. It is a collective. And I do believe in the ethos of like my core ethos that like your success is my success and my success is your success. And you bringing me in allows me to bring in other people that you would also. And it's just this cyclical, beautiful moment that we're all actually supporting one another and growing. And so yeah, it was, we ran that and then my co founder stepped away to have a family and it was like we've been having these conversations essentially behind closed doors.

Jennifer Apple:

Why not actually make this a resource that's accessible for everyone? And so we pivoted to the podcast and we've been having conversations with women and non binary artists for over three, for in. We're in three seasons now and we've added on all these other elements now. So it's really like anything that you would want to know, it's there. If you want to know how to write a grant, if you want to start knowing like to get into writing, if you want to know how to pitch a TV show, if you want to know what it is to be a director, you know, there's the technical stuff that you can have and then there's again these emotional conversations. And I'm really proud of it. And I. It's the resource that I wish that I had when I was first starting out. And frankly, it's still the resource that I'm grateful that I'm giving that I can then have access to as I'm navigating different parts of my career.

Jennifer Apple:

It's really beautiful tool and I've gotten to speak to some incredible humans and uplift what the work that they're doing and share that with others.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, certainly having this podcast myself, I've spoken with people that I probably would never have met if it not for the podcast. I'm learning from people. There's networking as a part of it, but that's never the goal. But still, I'm beginning to put myself in circles that I probably never would have gotten into if not for this podcast and these conversations.

Jennifer Apple:

Correct. It's such a accidental vehicle and also one that continues to surprise me in the way in which it morphs and who ends up communicating to me about what they've heard or the people that have been touched by it. And yeah, I'm proud of it and anybody who's listening, it's literally there for you to use so that you can have access to all these different parts of the industry that we forget are parts of the industry that build the whole thing. It's such a big ecosystem. I think we, most of us have an, an immediate access point, whether that's, you know, as an actor, as a dancer, as a director, but realizing maybe that kind of hustle isn't your hustle, but you still want to be in the world. The possibility of what else lives in this ecosystem is ginormous, you know, and the, the roles and positions and jobs that exist to make all of this run. I, you know, if, if I had known other roles and things earlier in my career, maybe things would be a little bit different. I don't know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, I mean, certainly when I was coming up, it was like you kind of had this path, you've picked your path and then you go that. But yeah, that path intersects with so many other artists and technicians and collaborators and creatives that it's like, yeah, there's so many different ways to support this one thing. I don't just have to act in the show. There's so many other ways to create and do things. And your collective. It reminds me of an organization called Maestra. I don't know if you've heard of it, but yeah, yeah, they also focus on women and non binary individuals in the area of music composition and production performance. And why for you, is this particular group so in need of support and resources?

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah, I think for me, I think a. It's like my access point as a woman. I have my individual experience and I want to be able to talk from that perspective. I also want to be able to be in community with others who have experienced a similar perspective or a similar access point as well. And I also think that there, I've, at least from the conversations that I've had, which have been many at this point, there's like a different level of care and freedom to the way in which we all are able to talk because we've all in some ways been on the fringe of something somewhere because we are women and non binary folks like it just we don't have the same privileges in many respects. And you know, statistics can kind of show that also. And so for me, it was really important to be able to uplift voices who may not have had the space to be able to be heard and seen, but also to be able to have candid conversations in a way that reflected the needs of this community. And you know, who's to say if it might shift in the future? But for now that that's, I, I, I've been able to really meet and talk to some people who have been so vulnerable and open with the way that they've shared.

Jennifer Apple:

And I, I don't know whether it's to be attributed to the fact that this is the space that I've curated or whether it's the way, you know, they're showing up. I'm showing up, everyone's showing up. But I know that that has been a result and because of that it feels pretty sacred and important now, while.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Neither of us have really been in the business world per se, you know, I, I've certainly had my survival job, so I've certainly, you know, been over there. Would you say though that compared to other industries, compared to other professions out there, that the arts do provide more of a space or at least a way for women and non binary to feel included, to feel more present, to feel more empowered?

Jennifer Apple:

I don't know. I don't know because it's only, this is only my point of reference, right? Like I, I would like to think so, but, but I also would be lying if I didn't say that there are so many problems in this industry that really great at me and really break my heart on a daily basis. And so I don't know, I think at least from the optics perspective of it in terms of like the way that we as a community, and I'm generalizing here, but we as a community, like say we support one another, there seems to be more verbiage around inclusion. Inclusion, right. But the data probably shows otherwise. And I would imagine that it's maybe hopefully on a bit more of an uptick now that people are talking about it, but it's certainly not fully equal or I would say equitable yet as far as I can see from at least like looking at, you know, various creative teams or shows that are being put on and vice versa.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And certainly 2020, I think is really what opened up that spotlight to the different things that maybe the industry hadn't been looking at or maybe things that the industry thought were fine, but maybe like you said, still need work, still still need progress. And so it's interesting, just even in my own experience, going back, thinking about the people that I've worked with or thinking about the teams, or thinking about who's, who's in charge and who wasn't. Yeah, that it's, it is interesting and it's a different dynamic whenever it's this person versus another person. Each of us, you know, you and I have similar things, but we also have different things that we bring into this industry. And I think, think it's hopefully is more than verbiage. It is actually like action and putting these things into action. Certainly over the last few years. I, I, I, I think it's happening.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so, you know, I, and I hope that you're starting to see that at least as, as you bring this collective together.

Jennifer Apple:

I hope. I don't know, I, I, I don't know if that feels bleak, but I don't know. I really don't. You know, I still am having conversations with people from various parts of the industry and, you know, they talk about, from their lens of things like how the majority of, you know, the teams are X and they're part of Y, and how it hasn't fully been reflective yet. But again, without, like, the data in front of me, I feel like I can't, like, fully say, because I feel like that shows it more honestly than like, what we think from our own ecosystems and our own little bubbles.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

We all have our own circles.

Jennifer Apple:

Exactly.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So it's hard to, it's hard to really know. But, but I think what's great about what you're doing is that you're bringing in people from around the country, around the world. And so there is this degree of perspective that just being in New York, New York is going to be one ecosphere. And so to branch out of that, you really get to see, well, what's the industry really doing across the country.

Jennifer Apple:

Correct, correct. It's been really fruitful. I'm really grateful for it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so you've mentioned that the podcast is now an extension of this collective. How would you say that the podcast itself has now been an extension of and furthered your reach for this collective?

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah, well, certainly the humans who can access it. Right. Because when you were in the cohort, then you had access to the panels and the workshop. Sometimes we opened up some of those to individuals who were not directly in the cohort. So they were larger, you know, at the time, zoom sessions. But now that it's a podcast, anybody, no matter who you are and how you identify, you can access it, no matter Your gender, no matter, anywhere. So from that perspective, the reach is larger because everybody can reach it. And then in terms of the people that I'm bringing on, I think, you know, in the beginning it was a lot more of like, who are my friends and who do I know or who have I worked with.

Jennifer Apple:

And as we've continued doing this podcast for longer, you know, we've had those tentacles reach further and had some really incredible and sometimes often very well known guests who. The reach has been more possible just because we've been doing it for so long. And there is a reputation that it's doing good work and providing a resource. And so from that capacity, it's definitely like, extended beyond just like my little bubble. And now my bubble's growing because of that. And also, hopefully other folks, as they're listening, you know, they feel like their point of reference and contact is also growing too. You know, everybody who I've brought on, I think, shares a similar ethos and value system in that they really do believe kind of what I was talking about earlier, that, like, your success is my success and my success is your success. Though I hate that word and I'm trying to, like, never use it, but, like, the uplifting of each other.

Jennifer Apple:

And so, you know, I'd say that the majority of the guests, I cannot think of one offhand. You know, when I ask at the end, like, where within your boundaries can people reach you? Like, everybody actually gives points of contact, and more often than not, they're like, please reach out if you have questions. Please reach out if you want to shadow me, please. Like, the offering is actually there. And so I've had people, you know, who have been like, yeah, I'm actually working now with this person because I heard them on your podcast and I reached out because they said I could, or I've, you know, I've reached out to this person to invite them to be a part of my reading for X, Y. Like, it actually has been doing that in the builds, and I don't even necessarily know all of those ways, but really extending, you know, the, the metaphorical hand to folks in a way that they might not have had beforehand, that feels really cool to be making these connections for folks and giving them a place to start and a resource to go to that doesn't just make it feel like you're swimming around in your own little, like, I don't know what I'm doing. It's like, no, no, you have a person now that you know exists who's doing this thing. And now you can potentially reach out kindly and gracefully and respectfully and see what might be possible.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. And remember, you can get early access to our full conversation by going to why I'll never make it.com and click subscribe. Well, that about does it for this episode. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music is from John Bartman and the theme song that was created by me. Stay tuned for the next episode when I ask the final five questions and we talk more about why I'll Never make it.