(This transcript was automatically generated.)

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Hello, and welcome back to why I'll Never make it. In the previous episode, you heard stories from Katerina Papacostas, where we got into her theater experiences as a 19 year old, as well as her current show Chess, where she got to go on for the lead role of Florence Vassi. But there is obviously so much more to uncover and she is back to answer the final five questions. But first, we have an audition story when Kat was in final callbacks for a Broadway show. And this of course leads us into one of my favorite subjects self tapes.

Well, let's get into the audition story that you wanted to talk about. And this is for Kinky Boots when you were in final callbacks for Nicola. So tell us about this experience.

Katerina Papacostas:

It was just one of those good reminders of like, if you put it on your special skills, someone's gonna read it. I was, you know, this was my very first final callback for a Broadway show. I'd gone in for. For the Broadway production of Kinky Boots, I think seven or eight times. And then by the time I booked the tour, I think it was like 11 times total. So just a reminder of like, just keep going in. You never know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh my gosh, so many times.

Katerina Papacostas:

Stick around. But the very first final callback that I made too for Nicola, or I think it was like the Nicola cover or something like that. Everybody's there, you know, there's 20 people in the room. It's all the co producers. Harvey Fierstein was in the room and from the back he says, like, I had written on my resume that I could rap. All of trouble from the music man, which I knew I'd put that on there as like a coy. Like, look how funny and clever I am. And he goes, do it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I was like, now, now, now. Did the. Did the music person behind the piano, did he like know it and just start playing it with you?

Katerina Papacostas:

Nope. They were like, acapella, Go for it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Acapella. Now, for those who remember what this is, the. Well, we got trouble here. Got trouble right here in River City. It's so. It's that. It's that Harold Hill does.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yes, yes. The capital T that rhymes with P, that stands for pool.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

There you go.

Katerina Papacostas:

And I at one point knew it, but I had not brushed up on it. And I think I made it through, like, I don't know the first stanza. And then I crashed and burned. And he was like, don't put it there if you can't do it. And I was like, you're right, R.V. firestein whatever you say called me out. Yeah. So it was a.

Katerina Papacostas:

It was a lesson learned. But also it was one of those moments where, like, then the audition room gets human again. And I was so grateful for him, like, breaking the tension of, you know, me and my stilettos and everyone else just staring at you. It was. I was incredibly grateful for it. Cause it really set the tone. And then it was a really fun room to be in. So.

Katerina Papacostas:

One of those very tender or, like, heartfelt moments of my career that I will remember forever. Harvey. Fire.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, now you do that. But at the time, did you feel like, oh, no, I didn't. I didn't.

Katerina Papacostas:

Oh, yeah. No, you're right. At the time, I was like. And I. That's why I didn't get.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I'll just walk out. I'll just leave now. Should I just go right now? So audition over, right?

Katerina Papacostas:

Exactly. And then you, like. Oh, God, in those early days, too, you just. Everything has so much weight on it. And then you realize, like, oh, man, nobody fucking cares. Nobody cares. It's not that serious. Those are.

Katerina Papacostas:

If that's what made or broke you, then, like, something else is horribly wrong.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right, right, right. I mean, yeah, that may have been, like, a final straw, if you don't get it, but. But there were other things. It's not like you didn't remember Trouble for a Kinky Boots audition. So therefore, they're not going to cast you.

Katerina Papacostas:

And that's it. Yeah. And they'll never call me again. And, like, never. We iterate so far in our minds, and you realize that it's truly, truly everyone. They're seeing a million people. You aren't. That moment did not make or break anything for anybody.

Katerina Papacostas:

You're fine.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. I forget who I was listening to. There was an actress talking about this one audition that just went horribly wrong. And the casting director was even a little snarky about it. It just, you know, she didn't book it. And then it's years, years later. She hadn't been in for this casting director, you know, so of course she's thinking, well, they hate me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You know, so years go by. Finally this audition comes in, you know, finally gets in front of this casting director again. You know, she's ready. She's like, I'm not going to mess up this time. I'm going to do it. And then goes in, does the audition, and he goes, oh, hello. It's so nice to meet you. He didn't remember her.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

He didn't know who she was. Had no idea what we remember as actors is nothing compared to what they forget behind the table.

Katerina Papacostas:

It is such a helpful reminder every time you encounter that or every time I mess up or, like, I fuck up on stage and I mess up a thing, and I'm like, oh, I. I'm sure the choreographer was watching that, and she's gonna remember that, and then she's never gonna hire me again. And it's like, no, man. No one. Yeah. And in the best and worst sense, 90% of the time, people are just dealing with whatever they're dealing with or whatever they have to be looking for, and it has nothing to do with you, for better or worse, you know? And, like, it's just. Yeah. The stuff we hold on to, it's insane, though.

Katerina Papacostas:

Learning to let go of mistakes has been a very. Or, like, that is the best lesson I ever learned. It's just.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean. I mean, yes, obviously casting directors remember that's part of their job is to remember people, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I mean, so. Yes. But at the same time, it's like, the amount of times that we think we are horrible and we're worthless and we have no talent, like you said, 95% of the time, that's just not even true. And it didn't even register to the casting director.

Katerina Papacostas:

Well, it's one of those things that I start that I use actually a lot in this process with chess that I've never really done before, or I did, I guess, during Bandstand was the other big role where I was like, pretty much every time. My voice teacher in high school, which I don't know if you've ever seen Pretty Woman, the movie, but she. They go to the opera, the famous opera scene. And the opera singer in Pretty Woman was my voice teacher growing up in high school. She happened to live there. Yeah. Karina Collabro, she was just a fantastic character study of a human and so talented and so amazing and gave me all of my opera chops. She taught me everything.

Katerina Papacostas:

But she would always say, catherine, Catherine, no one paid for the tickets in your head. No one. And I was like, that is such accurate. Karina.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yes.

Katerina Papacostas:

I record myself. Yeah. No one paid for those tickets.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. We got our own production going up in here. And no. No one sees it. Or even, like, registers that. Yeah. Yeah. We make up so much stuff in here.

Katerina Papacostas:

Our experience, like, even just orally, just, like, what you're hearing is simply not what people are hearing outside of your own resonance, like resonators in your skull. So, like, I really have Made it a habit, especially with. With stuff, songs that are. That have been challenging for me or that right out the gate don't sit right in a sweet spot in my voice. I record it. I record every time. I record every understudy rehearsal. I try to record the performances, and I don't go back and listen every time.

Katerina Papacostas:

But if there's stuff where I felt self conscious about it, nine times out of ten, I go back and I'm like, oh, no, that was fine. It sounded crazy or out of tune or crackly or whatever. The intonation didn't feel great. And then the actual listening back is very different, which is not something everybody loves doing. But for me, because the singing sometimes really gets in the way of me being present as an actor. Like, I try to do that to create safety so that I don't get stuck in that, you know, infinite critical loop in my mind, especially musicals, because, like, you're just. Especially in this role. She just never stops singing.

Katerina Papacostas:

So I'm like, I cannot. If I get hung up on what I just did, I will never make it to the end of the show. I'll be fucked. So. But it's been very helpful. Or even if you just do it every now and then to remind yourself that, like, you sound great, he probably sound way better than you think you do. That's been very helpful. Or finding people you trust, finding actors you trust.

Katerina Papacostas:

Like, having people come see you who you actually would want. Their feedback is really helpful too.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

In these final five questions, we're going to take a look at some pivotal moments from her life that have really turned her into the artist that she is and made her journey so unique. So, Kat, let us first get started with question number one. What is your favorite or most memorable survival job?

Katerina Papacostas:

That's a. I. So I feel like my most. The most. The one that has stuck around is software engineering. And that one, I think will. Will be around for a while. But my favorite to date was my very first bartending job, which was at the snug on 9th Avenue.

Katerina Papacostas:

I don't know if anyone you might be familiar with it. It was like a dive bar, of all fucking dive bars. But I really. There's like a performance element to bartending. You're kind of the host of the party. And it was a spot that had Happy hour from 11pm till 2am every night. And we'd have five $5 appletinis, you know, so, like, I. I really loved getting to meet people in that environment, getting to, like, exercise some showmanship and like, I could make five martinis at once, you know, and, like, crack them and pour them all at once.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, of course. Were you doing the flipping and the shaking and the everything?

Katerina Papacostas:

What's that movie Cocktail? Is that with, like, Tom Cruise? Yeah, that's. I basically just lived that life. And I had this group of warriors once come in. They were hammered, and one of the women was like, yeah, I bartended and paid my way through law school. And I used to charge people a hundred bucks to stand on the bar and, like, blow Bacardi 151. She's like, I'll show you how to do it. Your ceilings are high enough. You should do it.

Katerina Papacostas:

And so I started doing that. It was really. It was really a lot of fun. So I had a good. I, I, that felt very iconic, New York, like, auditioning for shows and then, you know, bartending at night. I. I had a fucking blast. And I was young, so, you know, I didn't know any better.

Katerina Papacostas:

It was great, of course.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Of course. Well, number two, if you could give advice to your younger self, starting out, what would that be?

Katerina Papacostas:

I think it would be. I mean, the advice. I feel like every person at some point, New York is being so loud, is like, just relax a little bit. But that's impossible. There's no version of me that was going to relax in my 20s. But I think the biggest thing would be to just start to pay attention to my creative opinion earlier, start to, like, hone my perspective as an artist and especially musical theater. I feel like we're prone towards becoming a technician and being the best technical singer, the best actor that we can be based on, like, the classics, the best, you know, like technical singer or dancer, and going to class all the time and making sure your toes are pointed, your legs are straight, your technique is there. But it took me a long time to start to have something to say and to start to have an opinion on the work I was doing, rather than just, like, going for whatever job I could find.

Katerina Papacostas:

So I would have. I wish I had had the courage to try to start to hone that earlier and have a little more of an opinion on what I was doing and how I was doing it. But I was just so eager to work, and maybe that's unavoidable. Maybe you can't skip that step.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, I mean, because a lot of that has to do with your life experience. And some people by the age of 20, have lived a whole lifetime, and other people are just getting started, so.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah, that's very true. That's Very true.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Number three, what does success, or making it mean to you?

Katerina Papacostas:

Oh, God. I think that the answer has changed and will continue to change, but it used to be just make it to Broadway by hook or by crook. And very fortunately, I've now done that a couple times. And I think now my next big peak that I guess I would really love to climb is to create some of my own work and have something to offer and. But I think. I think success is like working on things I feel passionate about with people I. I feel passionate about. That's.

Katerina Papacostas:

That it's. I think, will be the ongoing theme of success, which, if I'm lucky to keep doing this. Yeah. To work with people I love on stuff that I love would be the goal.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so is there obviously, you know, you're currently in chess, and I'm sure you would feel that way, but is there one. Is there a moment that feels like that along your journey that feels like this was. This was the moment? This was the ones like, I've. I've arrived. I feel like I'm here. I'm where I need to be.

Katerina Papacostas:

I. I honestly feel like there have been countless moments like that. I really. I've been. Because there's moments like, obviously there's. Tootsie felt that way. Our first preview in New York felt that way. The first day of, like, the dance lab for Tootsie felt that way because I was like, in the beginning of this very special thing.

Katerina Papacostas:

But there have been those moments on, like, regional gigs. I felt that way when we did Crazy for you. I felt that way on Evita. Like it was. There's just every time you book something that is meaningful, it feels like such a gift and kind of like a crazy act of luck and good fortune. So I think I had so many moments like that, and I. It's kept me present and not, you know, trying not to be too heads down and, like, stop and smell the roses for lack of a less cheesy platitude. But, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And number four, what changes would you like to see in the industry going forward?

Katerina Papacostas:

Oof. I would love for their. I feel like it's twofold. There's the external factors. It's hard. A big challenge of chess right now. Not just chess, but being an artist right now is the business as usual of it all. As we're watching and privy to so much change and in my opinion, really troubling change in our country, which trickles down, obviously, to, like, how we subsidize and support the arts and there's that's, you know, been ripped away on a thousand levels.

Katerina Papacostas:

And like, the. The Kennedy center being shut down for a couple years is. Has really felt like another nail in that profit in a. In a troubling way. So part of it is, I would love. I hope that as. As this pendulum swings in one direction, I'm hoping we yank it back the other way. And in that process, I hope we bring back a lot of our federal and communal support around the arts.

Katerina Papacostas:

But I think from our end, as, like, people in the industry making active change, I think finding a way to continue to create new work that, like, sustains and creates impact. And I feel like there's so much I do not understand the. I realize how hard and how financially difficult it is to get a show from Inception to Broadway and still have there be, like, equitable pay and equitable support and experience for both, like our, like, from the top down in a cast and through the crew as well. But making this life more livable and creating more opportunities for new work to have success. It feels very elusive. And I don't understand enough of, like, the production structure and the financial structures to figure out exactly where we're. Maybe where the cogs and where, like, those. I'm not.

Katerina Papacostas:

I can't think of the right metaphor or analogy, but, like, where's the. Where's the problem? What is stopping that from happening? And how do we. How do we do that? Because I feel like there's a desire for it. I feel like there's a desire for it not just as artists, but as, you know, lovers and consumers of art. People want it and they want more of it. And how do we offer that in a sustainable way? So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, I mean, because it gets to what you're saying. There's so many different levels. There's. So it's not just, you know, okay, Broadway ticket prices are so high, so people can't go see it, but then also living in New York is high. So then that's a governmental thing or a tax structure. But then there's also just, like, the tourist industry, and we gotta keep people coming here, and how do we do that? So there's so many different reasons why the current Broadway structure is unsustainable. But what will fix it? Well, that's almost an even harder problem to figure out because.

Katerina Papacostas:

And it'll probably be a lot of little things. There's no one lever to pull.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it's gonna be small little changes that hopefully happen over time because, yeah, like, you know, I finally Got to do my first Broadway show, and the minimum is 2,800 a week, which sounds enormous. I mean. I mean. I mean, if you're making 2,800 a week in Alabama, where I'm from, you're. You're living the high life. However, half of that paycheck's gone by the time I actually get a deposit in my bank account, not to mention

Katerina Papacostas:

your agency or whoever. Like, forget about it. That's it. You're taking home 40.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So all that. All that's gone. And then, you know, my. My rent is 2,000amonth. So then there's. Then. Then there's that, you know, so there's all these little things, and it's now two months later, three months later, after.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

After that, and I'm like, I'm having to pull from savings because I got to make. I got to make payments this week, you know, so it's.

Katerina Papacostas:

You're back to zero. Like, you know. Yeah, it's. It's. I do not know what the answer is. And I. I feel grateful or like, I finally feel in a position where I can start to investigate and see how I can contribute. Like, you know, I feel like I'm coming into this next chapter of my life and career where I'm not just, like, scraping for a seat at the table, but now I've been able to sit here for a second, and I'm like, okay, how do I now meaningfully contribute and start to, like, be the change? God, I'm just full of fucking idioms today.

Katerina Papacostas:

But, like. Like, I. You know, how do you become the change you want to see in the world? But truly, it has to. I can't just sit here and have opinions on what I want to do and how much I want to be paid and not. Or I can, but I would like to be able to. I think it's meaningful to offer something. And so I feel curious and actually energized to try and find a way to make this. Continue to make this more sustainable.

Katerina Papacostas:

Because, like, Carrie Coon had that great interview where she was like, if I hadn't had White Lotus, then I wouldn't be starring in this show on Broadway, period. And she's like, that's not a comment on people having no creative perspective or being shitty, but she's like, how many great artists I've now watched leave the business because they can't. They simply can't get enough work to sustain it. And, like, it's just a shame we, you know, you don't want to have to, like, go back to the years of, like, the Medicis having to fund every artist. But, like, that's. You do have to have people with the. With the means supporting the arts. And then at the same time, we have to start to create the infrastructure so that it's livable for the artists to stick around and not leave.

Katerina Papacostas:

Like.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, the arts. I mean, theater, obviously, in particular, it is such a. It's such a feeling and it's such a passion, but yet, you know, that doesn't pay the bills. And eventually you have to kind of like, okay, well, you know, how am I going to do this? What? You know, more practicalities of it, of the business, then, you know, the. It's wonderful to feel those joys, and it's wonderful to have those high moments, but you still have to be able to live. Yeah.

Katerina Papacostas:

And it is both simultaneously. It's that. That, you know, excruciating tension of, like, two conflicting truths that are. That are both real at the same time. And I. Yeah, I feel like, the one exciting thing, and I feel like generationally. And technology, for all of its issues and all of the ways that it's going to end humanity, it does allow, like, the old trope of if you have something to fall back on, you'll fall back, is bullshit and no longer a. It's not.

Katerina Papacostas:

Nobody can, like, really be an artist and not have something else going on to support them financially anymore. But with tech, like, technology in general, it's easier than ever to, like, have a remote career, to have, like, other means of sustaining yourself. So I'm hoping that, like, part of that is we were able to be, like, more proactive entrepreneurs as artists that help us stick around and help us make more of our own stuff. And, you know, I don't know, that's. Hopefully that helps keep people around and keep people making shit. I don't know. Figures. It's, like, two soon for me to throw in the towel and say that we're all doomed.

Katerina Papacostas:

So I can't. I can't. I refuse to go there.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number five, Describe a personal lesson that has taken you a while to learn or one that you're still working on to this day.

Katerina Papacostas:

I feel like there's. There's so many. The list is too long. But one of them is one of the, like, I. We have, like, a false narrative that, like, as you get older, you're just, like, confident and chill and that you no longer question yourself, which is. The older I get, the more I realize I couldn't be further from the truth. The only difference is, like, your bag of fucks has a big hole in it and you're like, oh, my God, I have no fucks to give. So, like, even though I'm self conscious, I don't care as much.

Katerina Papacostas:

And which is helpful. But I think. I think that the. Conditioning that we've had to try and meet someone's expectations in an audition room, but through with a director, with even your day job, there's so many ways that we're conditioned to try and show up the way people expect us to, and that. That colors and changes and dampen my own instincts as a. As a person, but particularly as a performer, like, not needing that validation and really just clearing the channel between, like, what I say and do and then, like, what my actual instincts are and not letting that get clogged or filtered by other people's expectations, particularly in, like, the creative world and in the audition room is. Is something that like. Or needing my.

Katerina Papacostas:

My peers, you know, like, approval, like, just not needing that. That approval and not letting that. We all need it. So, sorry, I don't mean to, like, belittle it, but. But not letting that cloud my actual process as much as possible, and that's something that I have to learn and relearn and learn again over and over and over and over again and probably indefinitely. That'll just be a part of my process forever.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so for you, which voice is. Is louder? The. The inner voice where you're talking to yourself or the voices you hear of other people, their expectations or perceptions of you?

Katerina Papacostas:

I think it all filters through that inner voice. But the number of times that I. When you become discerning and, like, realize that, like, that inner critic is actually parroting something that you are thinking someone else is saying. You know what I mean? That it's like the voice of someone else in my life that I have let into my own psyche and inner monologue and need to quiet down. But it's. Who is it? Like? I think it was Ira Glass did that interview where he was like, if you ever want to make any art, it means that you are somebody who has, like, taste in your. In your field by virtue of wanting to participate, you have taste. And if you can withstand.

Katerina Papacostas:

If you can quiet the critic and withstand the tension between when you start making something and your taste level, because what you start to make won't match your taste level for a while. And, like, I feel like that can happen over the course of, like, many years in a career, but it can also is like a short cycle. Whenever I'm making an audition tape, like, from what I know I want it to be from. And like, letting myself start at zero and build up to that. It's such a. Like, when he put it that way of like, you just. He's like, if you can withstand that discomfort, you will part. You will be in the world.

Katerina Papacostas:

Like, you will work, period. But. But a lot of people can't don't want to withstand that extraordinary discomfort because it's fudgeing terrible. It's. It's awful.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. When you're on your seventh take of a self tape, you're like, damn it, why can't I get this?

Katerina Papacostas:

I'm like, I know what I want it to be. I have a clear vision in my head, and I cannot get it out of my face. Oh.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And the number of times I look back and I'm like, am I even alive? My face is dead. I am. I have so much thinking going on in here, and my face is just like. It looks like I'm just in the moment.

Katerina Papacostas:

You're like, I am alive.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, please. I'm. I'm making choices. I'm having a story in my head, and I'm saying this line, and then I. And I watch it back, and I'm like, what am I looking at? Where am I? Like, what?

Katerina Papacostas:

It's like, you're. And I'm like, the number of times I've watched things, and I'm like, that was a really nice junior college performance. Like, what is. How old are you, ma'?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Am?

Katerina Papacostas:

I just. Yeah, So I. I really. I think back to him a lot. That is like, one of those. Those lessons that I. Or one of those, like, tropes that I really hold onto of, like, withstand the tension. Also, I found an app where I can, like, practice lines.

Katerina Papacostas:

So, like, if I have a friend as a reader and I tire them out or I'm like, I'm not going to get the take in this next 20 minutes. So, like, we can't do it. It will. It will. I can record my own voice and it will wait for my cue. It'll like, hear my voice and then play back my recordings of the reader's lines so I can, like, do stuff. And every now and then, I will do a self tape, and a couple of them have booked me jobs where I was like, I need to do. I need to do 40 takes of this.

Katerina Papacostas:

It's just going to take that long. It just be here all night, ladies and gentlemen. And. And it Works. And so I'm like, I, I just give myself grace that sometimes that, that turnaround is a lot longer, a lot more pathetically, you know, exhaustive.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But yeah, yeah, look, I, I, I applaud those people who's like, no, I have a, I have a three take minimum maximum. And whatever I have in three takes, that's what I'm sending. I'm like, that, that, that's great. And, and, and for some people, they, they can do the three takes, find the best one, move on. Whereas I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. There, there's a way. I, and, and I, I like the way I said that line. But then over here in this take, I want to take that line, and now I just want to murder you.

Katerina Papacostas:

I am a similar, like, laparoscopic surgeon psychopath. Like, the tone on that vowel was great. I'm bringing up.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yes. But scene work is one thing. When it comes to a song, though, sometimes you only have like, maybe five or six maximum.

Katerina Papacostas:

You can't. You're right. That's actually very true. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Especially if you're at the top of your range. It's like, look, this is all you're gonna get. Oh, oh. And the number of times when everything is going so well, so well. And then you get to that last phrase and you're like, words. Where did they go? Words gone. And I was like, that was so good. That was it.

Katerina Papacostas:

And then I'm like. And the number of times I would be like, can I please. I've, like, called my agent, like, I'm just gonna edit. And he was like, you can't do that. They're gonna.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I wanted to do that.

Katerina Papacostas:

I literally sat watch my agents, and they're like, no, ma', am, that's not how this works. They will not buy it. They're gonna.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

No, no, no, no, no. But it's gonna be like, one from this side of my face and the other from this side of my face. And so I'm gonna.

Katerina Papacostas:

He's like, it's not a film audition. That's not how it works.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You're right. So why aren't we doing this in person? Oh, my gosh.

Katerina Papacostas:

Now don't bring up. Don't use your logic right now, Patrick. That's not. No, no, no.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh. Oh, my gosh. I got this one self tape request. I'm like, wait, I got this from a casting director in New York City. While I'm in New York City for a production in New York City, and you want me to self Tape, huh? Interesting.

Katerina Papacostas:

Fascinating.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Katerina Papacostas:

Great.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That is.

Katerina Papacostas:

Sometimes I, I appreciate it. Certainly when I was in Austin, I mean like I. I kept telling everyone Austin that I was like juggling bowling balls because I was like flying back and forth for auditions all the time. Like once I knew I wanted to try again and like really push for it. It was like a year and a half before I, you know, made it back here and I had lots of gigs in between but like little things. And so I was flying back a lot and I was like grateful because rounds one and two I could do from Austin. And so I was like, I'm. This is affording me a very.

Katerina Papacostas:

Like then I could still live in Austin. Like go swimming in the river in the middle of January and like be outside. So I'm really missing that part of the living in Austin. But I do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Katerina Papacostas:

I. Then I'm like, I just. It's so much better live. It's such a better experience and especially theater audition. Yes. It's just. You're not going to get a sense of what I do on screen and a lot of times it just doesn't read. It like doesn't play well and it feels eggy and shitty and weird on camera and I'm like, you're not gonna call me back from this? I wouldn't call you back from this but if I could just do this in the room, I swear to God we would have a great time.

Katerina Papacostas:

So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before self tapes were like the thing I did. I remember the few that I would do and I remember booking my first thing through a self tape. I went, wow. They, they like that. Wow. Okay.

Katerina Papacostas:

Really?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

All right. Like you want me from that barbecue

Katerina Papacostas:

for me to argue but like I'm

Patrick Oliver Jones:

going to give you something better than that. I just want you to know. Yeah.

Katerina Papacostas:

Little do you know, it's only going to get better. Yeah. It's a strange. I feel, I feel lucky. There's so many reasons I'm lucky to have been the age that I'm at when, when you know, Covid hit and everything. But I'm like to have already a built up career and a sense of what it is to be in the room over and over and over again. I'm like very glad we got the best of both worlds in that sense. Have known the world before and now, you know, there's lots of downfalls.

Katerina Papacostas:

But at least also with the self tapes I can give you my best version.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So this is true. This is true. Well, you have been giving your best version here today. On this podcast, and I so appreciate you coming on and so appreciate you sharing your stories. So thank you for coming.

Katerina Papacostas:

No, this has been so special, and this is such a, like, wonderful, wonderful thing that you offer to our business. So thank you.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Appreciate it. Appreciate it.

Katerina Papacostas:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you for listening to why I'll Never Make It. For bonus conversations and early access to episodes, visit why I I'll nevermakeit.com or check the link in the show notes. I'm Patrick Oliver Jones, and this theme song was created by me, with additional music by John Bartman. Join me next time as we talk more about why I'll Never Make It.