Patrick Oliver Jones:

Welcome back. It is always so inspiring to hear the stories and experiences of artists like Joseph Zellnik. And in our last episode, we really got to dive into his shows like Yank. We got to talk about the books that he's been writing and how Broadway history is so integral to his work and his passions. But there's still more to uncover. And in the final five questions, we're going to take a closer look at the pivotal moments from Joseph's life, along with some personal reflections and ideas for the future that have made his journey so unique. So, Joseph, let us get started.

Joseph Zellnik:

I'm ready.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

All right, here we go. Number one, what do you remember most about your first professional show?

Joseph Zellnik:

Okay, so this one. This one. From a writer's perspective, what constitutes a professional show might be different than, you know, with an actor? Because what I think of as my first professional show was, was the show that I wrote as an adult, having graduated college, having come to New York, and doing. And readings and workshops. And it was a show called City of Dreams, and it was set in vienna in the 1880s, and it led up to the suicide of Crown Prince Rudolph, which was a huge, important moment in European history. And we worked on this show, my brother and I, for years. And. And what I.

Joseph Zellnik:

The lesson I learned from this sort of was that we would do the show. We would do workshops or readings for an invited audience and have professionals, New York professionals coming and seeing it. And it never quite clicked. And everybody had feedback for us about change this story point, change that, change this. And it took me years to realize that it was not the text of the show that was the issue. It was the fact that people just didn't want to see this story. It didn't resonate for them because the problems of a European prince didn't mean that much to people in the 1990s in New York. And wasn't until sort of that I did the next show that.

Joseph Zellnik:

That we started to write, which was Yank, which eventually did go on to professional success or commercial success, that. That I realized, oh, from the very first time, I think I mentioned this in the other episode, that from the very first time we did it in front of an audience, even when we only had one act finished, and then the second act, we just told them what was going to happen. The energy in the room was, we want more, we want more. We want this. This story. And so I learned as soon as possible, put something on its feet in front of a room of people and find out whether or not you have anything. So that's sort of what I remember is that lesson that I took away.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah. That's so important. Again, it comes back to that audience. As much as you may like something, as much as you and your brother may put your heart and soul into it, that doesn't mean someone else is going to care about it.

Joseph Zellnik:

Not everybody has a father who was born in Vienna and a family history of Vienna. So. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Really, there's not more people? I don't know. I don't get it.

Joseph Zellnik:

I know it's crazy to think that there are more, you know, ethnic Austrians in musical theater.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

All right, well, number two, if you could give advice to your younger self starting out, what would that be?

Joseph Zellnik:

I think I would tell my younger self to judge success based on whether you are happy with what you have done and not whether or not other people are happy with what you have done or other people are willing to pay you money for what you have done. Because searching for financial success in this industry is, you know, it's tough. And most people don't make a lot of money doing this. So the only really good reason for doing it is because you love it and because it's something that is meaningful to you personally, which is what we.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Were just talking about. Rudolph was meaningful to you.

Joseph Zellnik:

Yeah, exactly. But, you know, I, I, I still would. You know, you have to find that thing that is meaningful to you that will also resonate for other people. So I guess I'm sort of. But I, I think I. Early on, I think I was really, you know, I had dreams of, of, of, you know, writing the next South Pacific. Writing the next, you know. Well, Hamilton hadn't been written yet.

Joseph Zellnik:

But writing the kind of thing that, you know, flashes around the world, and before you know it, everybody knows the show. And that happens very infrequently. And that shouldn't be the only goal or the way you measure success.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

How would you say that your writing style has changed as you've come to learn this lesson or just in your own growth as an artist?

Joseph Zellnik:

Well, I actually think that I am a better composer now than I was when I was. I mean, it's not saying too much, but a better composer than I was in my 20s. And that's partly because each new show that I do, I have to incorporate something new. I have to try something new. Yank, as an example, is something that I had to get much deeper into jazz harmony than I had ever gotten growing up. And so the early shows I wrote are much more. The music is simpler. It stays in one key.

Joseph Zellnik:

And the chords are fairly simple. And with Yank, I had to. I was emulating composers who do fascinating things with jazz. And so that, you know, and that became something that I incorporated into my own style. And so I use those chords and I use that sort of vocab vocabulary. Even if it's now a different show set in China in 1935, I'm still using some of that vocabulary. So each time I'm trying to do something that pushes me and yet I get to keep whatever I find, I get to push in a new direction and incorporate that into style.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number three, what does success, or making it mean to you now?

Joseph Zellnik:

Well, I guess we've already sort of touched on that one. Yeah. Success means basically being pleased with what I have done. And I would say, and this is sort of more personal than theatrical, but I am at this stage of my life, happier with my life than I. Than I was. Because I don't measure my life based only on my success in my profession. You know, having a husband, having a house, having a garden. All of these things bring me great pleasure.

Joseph Zellnik:

And I don't need to look for pleasure only from whether or not there's an audience cheering something that I have written.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I can't remember if I was in the class or if I just watched it online. There was this acting teacher who, you know, they were talking about auditions and stuff like that. Then obviously there's a technique, there's the, you know, all the coachings that we need to get the song and the scenes right. But they were also saying, have something to talk about, bring into the room. Because obviously there's. There's some chit chat before and after the audition with the people behind the table, have something to talk about, you know, like you with your gardening. Maybe it's, you know, my podcast, maybe someone else loves coloring whatever it is, have something else to talk about that is apart from the stage, apart from the theater, that gives you a more well rounded sense of being a person.

Joseph Zellnik:

Yeah, it's always dangerous if you tie up all your happiness in one facet of your. Your life.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Absol. Well, number four, what changes would you like to see in the industry moving forward?

Joseph Zellnik:

What changes would I like to see? I mean, I have pipe dream types of changes that I would like to see, but I certainly don't know how to make it happen. And this is such an old complaint that I almost hesitate to mention it, but theater has become so expensive, tickets have become so expensive. And I know that people have always complained that Broadway was expensive, but I personally feel priced out of going to see a lot of Broadway shows at this point because of the ticket price. So unless something is offering discounts, I often. There's a lot that I don't see anymore. And I wish we could see a return to the ability to basically try something new on Broadway without losing millions of dollars. I feel like development world and workshopping something, it. It has a place.

Joseph Zellnik:

But I think that something has been lost by the fact that in like the golden age of Broadway, people tried out a show out of town, they rewrote the show out of town in front of audiences, all the while in front of audiences and brought it into New York. Some were successful, some were not, but they were sort of. There was a seat of the pants energy. And when you. When you develop something over years and you have a workshop every six months, for some reason, that energy get dissipated frequently. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, I, Yeah, I think energy in, in. In the writing it. Not just in, you know, in trying to find an audience, but the energy. And like, like where you were as a person, you know, in year one of a musical is not the same where you are in year 10 of that same musical.

Joseph Zellnik:

Yeah, that's true. And also the people in the room, I mean, the cast, it's like when you, when you do a show over a period of years from workshop to workshop, there's probably more turnover. It's not that nobody was ever fired during the golden age. Of course, sometimes people were, you know, were, Were fired along the road either because their part was cut out or because, you know, the director decided to go a different way. I'm working on the side note, the second book in the mystery series now, and that's concerning Fiddler on the Roof. And I feel like it's something that many people don't know that originally there was a character of a priest in Fiddler on the Roof who had a scene with Tevye and he told him that his daughter had married. Had married Fietka. And that priest out of town was Charles Durning, who, you know, eventually went on to play Dustin Hoffman's love interest in Tootsie and was a.

Joseph Zellnik:

Was a big movie actor and TV actor in the 20th century. And yeah, most people have no idea that he has any connection to Fiddler on the Roof, but his character was cut in Detroit. He came back to New York, went and auditioned for something else. But where I was going with this is as that when you are a company, when you have actors, musicians, writers, director, and you're all together in A compressed time period for three months putting a show on its feet, or four months putting a show on its feet, going out of town, rewriting the show. You're all sort of tied together and, you know, you can depend on the other people in that room. And sometimes the biggest hit songs from Broadway musicals were written out of town because the writers at that point knew what actor was going to sing it, what the set looked like, what, you know, what, you know, they would. They would write certain things, composers would write certain things. They're like, we got a great trumpeter.

Joseph Zellnik:

So I'm gonna write something that has a trumpet solo. And you would build something specifically for that production. And if you're working months out in a rehearsal room and you never get any further than a music stand, you don't have that kind of sense of what it is you're creating.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it's interesting. As you were talking about that, like the cost of things and the years that it takes in development, I was thinking about, you know, the recent production, Kimberly Akimbo, a seven million dollar musical, which is cheap, nothing compared today. And then Some like it hot was 25 million. And yet both of those shows have the same ticket price. So even though one was cheaper to produce, it's still just as expensive to try and go and see it.

Joseph Zellnik:

Yeah, well, that's a conundrum with ticket pricing, obviously. You know. You know, it's amazing that Some Like It Hot happened, you know, at $25 million, because they lost presumably 25 million. And so, you know, I'm happy that things are still being produced. The last couple seasons have been fabulous in terms of numbers of new shows that are opening. But I can't help wishing still that there was a way that shows could be built and put on their feet and, you know, go out of town, come back in, and it all would happen in a compressed time period and maybe see if we could recapture some of that same sense of like lightning in a bottle.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, as we get into the fifth question, describe a personal lesson that's taken you a while to learn or one that you're still working this day.

Joseph Zellnik:

I'd say the biggest lesson that I have learned is find, and this is for a writer, find the stories that you are the right person to tell. And I don't just mean in the sort of, you know, right now there's sort of discussions of like, can a white writer write a story that has a black character in it? But I'm talking about, you know, you know, my brother and I were the right People to write Yank. If there was going to be a World War II musical about gays, we were the people to write it because we're gay and we love the 1940s and we love that sound, and we are deeply steeped in that sort of style. And I'm. I feel like I am the person who is. If somebody is going to write murder mysteries set during Golden Age Broadway, that's. That's my niche. I'm, you know, grew up reading mysteries.

Joseph Zellnik:

I grew up knowing musical theater history, so I am the right person to tell that story. I have. I have written things, you know, been hired to write music for things, and I'm not some of them. I have been somewhat proud of the result, but there is a. I don't feel a deep connection to them because they are not my stories. So I would say find the thing that, you know, you think an audience will want to see, but that you are the right person to write. Don't just say, what does an audience want to see? I'm going to turn myself into the person who writes that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you had mentioned that there are musicals that you start that may not finish or you may still be working on to this day. As you start something, you have an idea, you're excited about it. Throughout a process, do you sometimes find, you know what? This just isn't for me. This isn't going to happen with me.

Joseph Zellnik:

Totally, totally. There are definitely things you start and you think, yeah, this isn't going anywhere. And one advantage of having done this for a number of decades, and I think this is probably true of artists in every field, is you have the muscle memory of, like, this is. Feels good. This. This is what I should be feeling now. For example, counterintuitively, if I don't hit a point with something where I say, this is terrible, I look back at something I've written and I'm like, oh, this is terrible. I hate this.

Joseph Zellnik:

This is awful. Then. Then I'm not working hard enough. Like, something like, that's actually a. That's actually a good sign. It's a bad sign if it, like, continues for weeks on end. But if you have a day where you look at something and you're like, this is just terrible. I hate it.

Joseph Zellnik:

Then you're not. Something is wrong. Then it's just bland because you should be a little scared or a little bit. A little bit. Anyway, I can't explain it exactly, except that I know that feeling. And I know the feeling when my brother and I are talking about a new musical or a song in a musical, we're finishing each other's sentences. We have more ideas than can possibly end up on the page because we're so excited about what we're doing. And if that excitement isn't there, I feel like inevitably the end result is going to again, not, not not hit an audience in, you know, in that deep emotional place that you want songs to hit.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, this has been such a joy to talk to you.

Joseph Zellnik:

It's been fun.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you so much for sharing all of your stories.

Joseph Zellnik:

Thank you for inviting me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you so much for joining why I'll Never Make It. And don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to why I'll never make it.com and click subscribe or just look for the link in the show notes. Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll Never Make It.