Patrick Oliver Jones:

Welcome back. Last week, Jennifer Apple and I had a remarkable conversation about Empowered Artists Collective as well as a major injury that she sustained and how that's affected her throughout her career. But, but honestly, there's just still so much more to explore. And so now Jennifer is back with us to answer the final five questions. And this will give us a chance to really beyond the spotlight and hear more about the, the moments and, and ideas that have truly defined her journey. So Jennifer, let's get started with the first question. What do you remember most about your first professional show?

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah, my first professional gig was a production of Spring Awakening in Wichita, Kansas. And this was, I will age myself. This was in 2012 and the world was a little different. And when Spring Awakening the had gone through the country, it was like boycotted out of this area of Kansas. And so this was like the first time this production was going to be done. And it was at Crown Uptown Dinner Theater, which was, I'd never done a dinner theater before. And also to do dinner theater with Spring Awakening is like a choice. And it was a time, I mean, we lived in this company housing.

Jennifer Apple:

I remember that being like a pretty dilapidated, dilapidated space. But I was so excited to be a professional actor that I was like, you know, had my own kitchen, my own room, whatever, fine. I remember I got myself like a monthly yoga pass to this hot yoga studio. And that was like one of the first times I'd ever done hot yoga. And now it's still like a huge part of my life. Some of these people from this production are like legit, really, really having incredible careers, but also have become like some of my closest long term theatrical friends. And I was the first time I ever had fried pickles and fried mushrooms and dipped those into ranch. And you know, it was really, it was a, it was a really special like, moment.

Jennifer Apple:

Kids would come up to us crying at the end about how impactful it was for them to see themselves on stage. And we'd have many people walk out every show because it was too racy for them. And so it was this interesting, beautiful dichotomy of how simultaneously impactful and polarizing a production can be and arguably why art is so necessary because it evokes hopefully really deep emotional responses in people in all kinds of ways. And for that to have been one of my first shows professionally, I feel really grateful. It was, you know, everybody was mostly around my age and it was a, a deep, emotional, angsty piece that I got to just funnel all these feelings into and to do so with Some awesome humans in the middle of Kansas was a time.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. Our tour went through Wichita as well. And I wouldn't say it's a theater city.

Jennifer Apple:

No, but music theater Wichita is like. I mean, they really put on incredible work. Huge.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, very much so. Very much so. Well, number two, if you could give advice to your younger self, starting out, what would that be?

Jennifer Apple:

Hmm. Yeah, I. I mean, there are so many things that I would tell myself, a lot of which I feel like I'm talking about in the Empowered Artist Collective podcast on with different episodes so that other folks can learn it beforehand. And certainly, like, as I'm coaching clients, like, that's. These are also things that I think I wish I had learned, that I'm trying to, you know, impart earlier. And I think maybe the main crux of it all, if I were to boil it down to one thing, and it's so cliche and trite, is really the fact that, like, there is no one else like you. Like, there is truly only you, and only you can do what you can do. And.

Jennifer Apple:

And that in and of itself is worth sharing. And you owe it to yourself to show up as fully as possible with as much presence as possible in every moment possible, so that you can, like, be proud of yourself. Not in, like, a. You won't be if you don't, but just, like to know that the fullness of you is. It's singular and in a sea of folks, you know, trying to, quote, unquote, stand out or trying to be interesting like, you are interesting because you are the only one who is you. Um, and I really do believe that in my core, and I wish that I were able to harness that deeper and earlier, and I. I guess, in conjunction with that, to take up space. I think early or early in my life, I had.

Jennifer Apple:

And then it was kind of maybe beaten out of me metaphorically or verbally, as I held a lot more presence or very specific kind of energy in a space that was maybe impactful. And I think for a very exuberant, energized, present young woman, that was overwhelming for people. And I think I was taught to. To dial it back and to keep it small and contained. And I wish that she knew that she didn't have to, and that those people were projecting their own selves and insecurities. Insecurities onto her, and that she deserved to take up all the space, as does every single person on this planet, and that I didn't have to spend so many years of my life trying to relearn what it means to take up space and that it doesn't take away from anybody else if you do.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Right. Yeah. Well, number three, what does success, or making it mean to you?

Jennifer Apple:

So I am on a mission to never use that word.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What does beep mean to you?

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah, exactly. You know, it's funny because I understand its meaning. I understand the question. And I think in answering this question, I think I'm. I think I'm gonna have to explain, like, what I mean by that in that your success is different than my success, hence why you ask the question. And I think we live in a society where, however, there is this, like, arbiter of what successful means, that unless you have performed on a literal Broadway show, unless you have a series regular on a TV show, unless you are the lead in this thing, unless you have paparazzi following you somehow, you are not successful. And I not only think that that's desperately toxic, but I also think it's inaccurate. And, and I, I.

Jennifer Apple:

And I think the important thing is to recognize within yourself what are the pillars upon which you, like, want to live your life. So, you know, if you are really hoping to be at the forefront of, like, new developments and new work, you probably won't reach any of those, quote, unquote, pinnacles of successes that I just mentioned, because you are going to be in these rooms weeks at a time working on this material and making this the best thing that it can possibly be so that it can move. Right. Or if you're somebody who loves making money consistently and doesn't want to do too much for it, and you want a cruise line for a long time, you will be making a lot of money consistently, and, like, you will pocket that. If you are responsible and resourceful, like, you will make that money and you are performing every single day, you know, and, like. But I might not see you and recognize you from said Broadway show, but are you performing? You betcha. You are. And I would call that deeply successful.

Jennifer Apple:

You know, So I guess I'm giving those examples as ways to show that, like, those are two amongst thousands of success stories in my brain of what success means. So I, I don't. I think it's really. You are your own arbiter of success.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And I, Jennifer Apple, what is it? Does that look like right?

Jennifer Apple:

So I think I'm still figuring that out for myself. You know, it's. I am my own worst crit. I think I have to acknowledge that because if I were to objectively look at my career and if I were to objectively look at my professional life thus far. I have done some unbelievable things in very kind of insane situations that probably should not have even happened. And so. And I have been working pretty consistently, even given the macro world shifts from strikes and pandemics and what have you that have taken place. And so I'm very lucky and privileged in that way.

Jennifer Apple:

Is it at the pinnacle or the, the environments that I want to be working in? No. And I say that with, you know, a caveat of a lot of the work that I am seeing on those platforms actually aren't. Isn't work I want to be a part of also, though. So I think maybe the, the idealized, you know, version of quote, unquote, success is to continue carving a bit more of my own path in it. I think part of it is I have been pigeonholed in some ways, you know, as exclusively playing Jewish roles. And although I am a deeply, deeply proud Jewish woman, that is not why I became an actor. And so wanting to continue pushing the industry, to see me in other ways and recognize that I am a. A human being with multifaceted parts of myself, that would be an ideal thing.

Jennifer Apple:

I want to do more TV and film. I'm getting to do that, but more, more consistently. And I want to be doing more development and more plays. I love musicals. I do. And they will pull me back, and they continue to pull me back and they keep me employed sometimes. And I'm grateful for it. And I just want to talk.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I haven't noticed that I really had to pull it out of you this whole interview.

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah, I'm really shy when it comes to verbally communicating, so I think why not use a skill set that is really hard for me and really a stretch. So, yeah. Without naming things specifically, do I want a series regular and a TV show? A thousand percent. Do I want like a national commercial that will, like. I can then quit all my thrival jobs, which is what I call them, like a thousand percent. But am I. If there's anything I've really learned, it's like any idea of what my life was going to be is not at all what my life is. And so letting go of holding on so tightly to these expectations that I think are these pinnacles is only holding me back from being open to these other possibilities that are kind of screaming and showing me are possible.

Jennifer Apple:

If I held on so tightly to the idea that I thought was the thing I had to be getting in order for me to, quote, unquote, be successful.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, it can be so easy to Miss other possibilities when you're so focused one direction, but this other great thing is that way. And it's like, but, but I'm going this way. But you, you can miss out on those things if you're not open to be like, oh, well, maybe that could be fun, or maybe I'll work with someone, or maybe that would tap into something that I've never tried before, you know, whatever it is. Exactly. There's these possibilities that can be, that can be so life changing. Yeah. Yeah. I've done work over the last, say, five years of things that I never thought I would do, you know, just.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Just by opening myself up to be like, okay, what's next?

Jennifer Apple:

Right.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Where am I going to go?

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So number four, what changes? You. You've mentioned quite a few, but maybe we can narrow down to maybe one or two of the changes that you would most like to see in the industry going forward.

Jennifer Apple:

The gatekeeping is really infuriating if I'm being really honest.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And what does that mean specifically for you?

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah, you know, even just a couple years back again, like, as I talked about with my band's visit story, I had the breakdowns, but I had them illegally. And why that is even the case is, like, kind of insane to me. And post strikes, post pandemic, it's actually been pretty locked up in the way that, like, less people have access to said breakdowns. And the fact that that's even like a thing that we need to, like black market is, like, really wild to me. You know, there are. If we're thinking about creating stories as like a puzzle and that you as an actor are somebody who could be the answer to said puzzle. Why we are keeping people hidden from the puzzles that are being done is really hard for me to understand because truly, like, two of my, like, initial large things that happened only happened because I had, I. I found ways to have access to them, not because it was given to me, and if I wasn't right for it, it wouldn't have happened.

Jennifer Apple:

But had I not had somehow, quote unquote, illegally gotten these things, I wouldn't have even been in the room. And so, you know, I just. It really breaks my heart for people certainly who are unrepresented and even people who are represented like, we should be having a pulse on what is going on in this industry. And I understand that there are some bad actors, metaphorically or literally, who are maybe making a quote unquote, bad name for the folks who maybe are doing it more respectfully and maybe they're Just willy nilly filling up people's inboxes and not doing so kindly like a thousand percent no to that. However, for those of us who are just trying to be very specific about the spaces in the rooms that we want to be a part of, for us to not even know that these rooms are happening until they're happening feels elitist and it feels unfair. Not in the like boo what was me. It just feels like we're not actually practicing what we're preaching, which is that we're saying we are a community that loves everybody and really wants everybody to feel included. And so it feels antithetical to the values that feel we are saying we stand for if we are not allowing people access from the get.

Jennifer Apple:

And so that model for me isn't working and it hasn't really ever worked. And I think it ebbs and flows and has ebbs and flowed my whole career about when it has felt more inclusive and when it hasn't. And I think there are certain optics that are maybe making it seem like we are in some ways, but I think on a granular level. 11 non union person still waking up at 4:30 in the morning to never get seen isn't sustainable. And somebody who has some sort of inaccessibility to not be able to say do that or isn't even in New York, to not know what's even happening, to then be able to see self advocate is a problem that we're not giving people autonomy over the things that they can have like have control over. And I, I really do want to live in a world and certainly be a part of an industry that really does think about the fact that we are really all trying to work together and not try to pin each other subliminally or not otherwise to away from each other. It's, it's, it's heartbreaking I think for me.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I completely agree that there needs to be more openness about the process. I did an article recently for this online magazine that I write for and it was about casting directors being more open at the end of the process. Like you did not get this, thank you for coming. But an actual no, like 98% of the time we don't get any answer. We have no idea. We all of a sudden see a casting notice that came out and it's like oh well that's who got it. But we don't know in fairness to.

Jennifer Apple:

Casting directors and I agree with you that that should be a thing. I also hate the word should, but I wish that were a thing in fairness to casting directors, they are usually like one person shows who like are, you know, trying to do 8,000 things. So what in my mind, it's like, it's a top down of like who. Then if you are deciding to do a production, you need to be budgeting for an assistant who during the audition process, their sole job is to be the person that sends out a thank you. No thank you, thank you, no thank you. Email that you work for freelance for a week and that is job and like that should be part of your budget, you know. And so for me, it's getting clear about the creative ways that we all can be more communicative and we all can show up in a way that's transparent. Going off of a thousand percent what you're saying, like when you send yourself tape into the Ethernet, never hear again, you don't know whether it's because you just weren't right for the moment or you were never right ever, or that you could have made a different kind of choice or that, you know, so there has to be better ways.

Jennifer Apple:

And I think we need to be working on these systems better for that communication, for that ability to even be seen or sharing what we do in different ways. Yeah, a thousand percent. Agreed.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Well, as we get to this fifth and final question, so describe a personal lesson that's taken you a while to learn or one that you are still working on to this day.

Jennifer Apple:

I think it goes back to the taking up space of it all for me. It's one that I continue having to be very vigilant with myself and reminding myself that just because I take up space doesn't mean it takes space away from other people. Like there's enough space for everyone. We're taught and told that there isn't and that's just a means to keep us small. And the scarcity mindset of it all, which is not truthful or accurate to actually what is real. And. And so I am still working and probably will for the rest of my life in therapy and otherwise to find ways for me to simultaneously take up more space for myself in a way that is present and truthful and honest and also create spaces and space for others to do so for themselves. And I don't know whether that's my life mission, but it's definitely something that guides a lot of the way in which I think and how I create.

Jennifer Apple:

And for whom am I creating and how am I then able to show up in a way that they feel that they can then show up for themselves. And how is that relationship then? Symbiotic and really trying to keep space in mind, metaphorically and literally as I continue trudging through this career.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, because I think so many people can see the industry like a pie chart. And like, if I take my slice, that's less slice for everyone or, you know, whatever it is. When really there's so many pies, there's just so many pies for you to have a little piece of that. Have a little piece of that. Go into here, go into here. And so yes, a show may only have 25 roles, so they can't cast a 26th. So yes, there's a certain number when it comes to shows, but there are hundreds of shows to then go out for and keep, you know, that's the life of an actor. We audition for, you know, however many shows a week and we just kind of keep trudging on and eventually we land something.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So, yeah, I think that mindset of not limiting ourselves by saying, I can only get so much. It's like, no, you can get a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of that. You can piece together, like you've done this multi hyphenate career piecing together different parts of you that you can put out into the world.

Jennifer Apple:

Yeah. And it's also, you know, truly like the people that you love and you respect and you care about, when you see that they have their little slice of pieces, are you mad that your friend is getting their flowers? If you are, think about why. Like, because that's actually worth thinking about and acknowledging. Like, okay, is there jealousy? Is there envy about what specifically? And then if you can get very clear about that, then that's mostly a lot of work on yourself. It's nothing to do with your friend.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah.

Jennifer Apple:

But if hopefully the initial impulse is like, oh my God, my friend is getting to do this. That is a person who is in a, your sphere of, you know, relationships that you respect and love. And that means that the room that they are currently in is a bunch of people who are probably operating in a similar way that you operate as in, now you know that there are people who work like you in the industry who are making art in a way that hopefully you want to make art. Now. The perspective isn't like, oh my God, they took this. It's like, oh my God, here's 10 other people, 20 other people, 50 other people who are working in a way that I want to work. Who else is in that room now that I can meet, that I can talk to, that I could then cultivate, you know, like, support their work, show up and see what they're doing. And now instead of thinking of it as like a threatening, you know, thing, it's actually this, like, really expansive way of recognizing that the pie isn't just this small little pie.

Jennifer Apple:

It's like there is so much more in that small pie than you're even giving yourself permission to look at. And so just expanding the lens of, like, this exists, and I love that this exists for this person that I love and care about. And now all these other people are also a room where this exists. Like, what an opening for. For an olive branch, for an introduction for support for collaboration. Like, that is ultimately, like, why I became an artist, and I imagine why many people became an artist. And to keep that in mind, it's a gift to be able to see people that you know and care about and love get things and vice versa.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I love that. Well, Jennifer, this has been such a wonderful conversation. I'm so glad to have had you on the podcast. Thank you.

Jennifer Apple:

Jeffrey R. Thank so much for having me. I'm so grateful for the space, and I feel like these questions that you ask are so intentional and specific and helpful for folks. So thank you for creating a space where folks can show up in such a way to continue these conversations. I'm really grateful.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, you're very welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining why I'll Never Make It. And and don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to why I'll never make it.com and click subscribe. Or just look for the link in the show notes. Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll Never Make It.