This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Alan Seales: At the end of the day, you got to vote. And people are like, you know, well, you know, voting doesn’t matter. It’s like, well, it matters so much to doing everything they can to take your vote, you know, your right to vote away.

[0:20] Heather Vickery: Hey, everybody. Welcome to Was It Chance? The podcast about embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk for your creative life. I’m Heather Vickery.

[0:28] Alan Seales: And I’m Alan Seales. And Heather and I started off as two perfect strangers who met by chance and embraced opportunity. And now you get to listen in as we talk with other people about the success they’ve, yes, they’ve taken to put themselves on a path to creative success.

[0:43] Heather Vickery: I did that cold from memory.

[0:45] Alan Seales: Wow.

[0:46] Heather Vickery: It only took almost four years.

[0:49] Alan Seales: I, you know, time is just a construct.

[0:53] Heather Vickery: Time.

[0:54] Alan Seales: Actually, almost five years.

[0:55] Heather Vickery: Four and a half years we’ve been doing this show.

[0:57] Alan Seales: Really?

[0:57] Heather Vickery: November it’ll be five years.

[0:58] Alan Seales: Yeah, it was November 2021.

[1:00] Heather Vickery: November.

[1:01] Alan Seales: Holy shit balls.

[1:03] Heather Vickery: I know. That’s kind of cool and we old.

[1:08] Alan Seales: Yeah, but how fun is it that we’ve been getting to hang out with each other, like, multiple times a week for five years?

[1:14] Heather Vickery: That’s so cool.

[1:15] Alan Seales: Yeah, that’s pretty good. That’s like the best part.

[1:17] Heather Vickery: It’s the best part for sure.

[1:18] Alan Seales: Well, and our really cool guests. We have a lot of really cool guests.

[1:20] Heather Vickery: Well, yeah, I mean, just doing the podcast in general is like the coolest part because we’ve, I mean, so many people are faced with failure and adversity and all this other crap that gets them down every day and then, like, the people we get to interview are those who have flipped that supposed failure on its head and made it into something useful and actually done something positive out of it.

[1:40] Alan Seales: I love it.

[1:40] Heather Vickery: Yeah, and also just embracing all these opportunities that show up. And today’s, I guess, I’m so excited. I have been waiting and waiting for months for this one, which is not the guest’s fault. It’s our scheduling’s fault.

[1:54] Alan Seales: But how we take advantage of the opportunities presented to us to do creative, cool things and bring art into the world and open up people’s eyes and hearts and I just, I don’t know. We get to talk to the coolest people.

[2:09] Heather Vickery: Yes, I agree.

[2:11] Alan Seales: You agree.

[2:12] Heather Vickery: I agree.

[2:13] Alan Seales: What am I eating?

[2:14] Heather Vickery: Yogurt covered raisins?

[2:16] Alan Seales: Vanilla yogurt.

[2:17] Heather Vickery: Vanilla yogurt covered raisins.

[2:20] Alan Seales: Okay.

[2:20] Heather Vickery: Because I need a little bit of a sugar hit before lunch.

[2:25] Alan Seales: I think there’s sugar in here.

[2:27] Heather Vickery: Yes? No? I don’t know. It’s raisins, so is it healthy sugar?

[2:30] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[2:32] Heather Vickery: It doesn’t say the grams. Usually, I look at the grams and I’m like, this is 1,000% your daily dose of sugar.

[2:40] Alan Seales: I’m not judging your snack. I’ve been trying to eat a tablespoon of peanut butter before I have coffee in the morning because that’s supposed to keep you from having a cortisol spike.

[2:51] Heather Vickery: It might be a thing just for the perimenopausal ladies, but I forgot this morning. I was too tired. I was up at 5 a.m. with the 13-year-old and then we went back to bed.

[3:02] Alan Seales: Wait, so your body says I need peanut butter to regulate?

[3:07] Heather Vickery: No, if I don’t have fat before I consume caffeine, I get a cortisol spike.

[3:13] Alan Seales: Oh.

[3:14] Heather Vickery: And then the cortisol spike feels not good.

[3:16] Alan Seales: We don’t like that.

[3:17] Heather Vickery: You get a crash, like all kinds of crazy things.

[3:19] Alan Seales: Yeah, I’m going to shove a peanut butter spoon in my wife’s mouth.

[3:22] Heather Vickery: It could be anything. Like you just have to eat something. You eat a couple of nuts, like whatever. And it’s just peanut butter is just the easiest thing.

[3:29] Alan Seales: I got your nuts right here.

[3:31] Heather Vickery: Nope, nope, nope, uh-uh. You’re editing that out. This is not the episode for it, buddy.

[3:38] Alan Seales: All right, save that for text messages.

[3:42] Heather Vickery: Not on the air.

[3:44] Alan Seales: What’s wrong with you?

[3:45] Heather Vickery: So many things.

[3:48] Alan Seales: So many.

[3:48] Heather Vickery: Where do I start?

[3:49] Alan Seales: Yeah, yes, I’m not hungry first thing in the morning. Like I don’t want breakfast first thing in the morning.

[3:56] Heather Vickery: Oh, same, same. Like I don’t do breakfast either.

[3:59] Alan Seales: This is usually like the time I eat and my last thing went long. So I usually snack before this 11:30 anyway.

[4:07] Heather Vickery: Spoiler, we’re recording 11:30 in my time zone.

[4:10] Alan Seales: I do love breakfast. I just eat it at like noon.

[4:13] Heather Vickery: Do you do breakfast for lunch? Do you like scrambled eggs?

[4:16] Alan Seales: Absolutely, usually basted eggs, sourdough toast, and some sort of fruit and vegetable. Except right now, oh my gosh, by the time this airs, hopefully this will not be an issue anymore. But right now, we have the cyclospora explosive diarrhea situation happening. So I can’t eat any raw fruits and vegetables.

[4:33] Heather Vickery: It’s really uncool.

[4:38] Alan Seales: What are you doing?

[4:39] Heather Vickery: I’m on the podcast.

[4:46] Alan Seales: So we’ll come back here, mom.

[4:48] Heather Vickery: Come back here, mom. Come say hi.

[4:50] Alan Seales: Oh my gosh, you have to edit this back in later because we want to say hello.

[4:54] Heather Vickery: Hello.

[4:54] Alan Seales: What a treat this is.

[4:56] Heather Vickery: It’s nice to meet you.

[4:58] Alan Seales: She can’t hear you, I don’t think, because I got the AirPods on. Just have her wave.

[5:02] Heather Vickery: It’s nice to meet her. Smile and wave, boys. Smile and wave.

[5:06] Alan Seales: We’ll have to get a good screenshot of that.

[5:08] Heather Vickery: Oh, that’s lovely.

[5:08] Alan Seales: Yes, absolutely. What a treat. Thank you for having her come in and say hi. Let’s get to this. You ready?

[5:15] Heather Vickery: Yeah, let’s do it.

[5:15] Alan Seales: Who is that?

[5:16] Heather Vickery: Who?

[5:17] Alan Seales: Well, that was—

[5:18] Heather Vickery: Introduce.

[5:18] Alan Seales: I’m going to introduce our guest.

[5:20] Heather Vickery: Uh-oh.

[5:21] Alan Seales: And we have a little—

[5:21] Heather Vickery: Introduce who?

[5:22] Alan Seales: That’s okay.

[5:24] Heather Vickery: There she is.

[5:25] Alan Seales: We had a little fun pop in there. Our guest is Loki Mulholland. And Loki grew up with a civil rights icon making his lunch. And she just popped in and said hi, which is so cool. His mom, Joan Trumpauer Mulholland, rode the Freedom Rides, got arrested more than once, and has one of the most recognized mugshots of the civil rights movement.

[5:48] Loki Mulholland: Appreciate it. Thank you.

[5:49] Alan Seales: Loki could have just been Joan’s son. Instead, he picked up a camera in 2011, made one documentary about her, and somehow that turned into 10 films, two books, and a foundation that’s now showing up in classrooms across the country. His newest book, Get Back to the Counter, has a foreword from Ruby Bridges, and his work is just incredible. Loki, welcome to Was It Chance?

[6:11] Loki Mulholland: Welcome. Oh, appreciate it. Thank you. Sorry about that mom intrusion. We had a reporter here right before this, and so that’s why I’m here at the house, at her house in Arlington, so.

[6:23] Alan Seales: I love that. That was fun for us. Otherwise, I’d be a little more dignified, but yeah.

[6:27] Loki Mulholland: Oh, not at all. We like to have fun around here. There’s nothing dignified about my mom.

[6:32] Alan Seales: I was going to say, she probably, like, she’s got a reputation of just, like, doing what she feels is right.

[6:38] Loki Mulholland: She’s almost 85. This comes with the territory. They can do whatever they want.

[6:43] Alan Seales: I think it’s great. I think it’s great. And I love, I mean, this is a side note. We’re getting ahead of ourselves, but I love, at least from what I can see, this beautiful, tender relationship that the two of you have.

[6:55] Loki Mulholland: That’s cool.

[6:56] Alan Seales: It’s cool to see.

[6:57] Loki Mulholland: Yeah, she’s mom. I mean, this is your mom’s house. How many homes do you have a portrait of Geronimo, the Apache warrior, hanging up there? Because that’s my brother’s name, by the way. It’s Geronimo, so, you know.

[7:09] Alan Seales: I am a little curious how you guys got your name.

[7:11] Loki Mulholland: Loki or Geronimo?

[7:13] Alan Seales: But Loki, how did you get your name?

[7:15] Loki Mulholland: My parents were hippies.

[7:19] Alan Seales: That’s the short answer.

[7:22] Loki Mulholland: I love that. Is that, like, that’s the Norse mythology?

[7:26] Loki Mulholland: That is literally the Loki you’re thinking of.

[7:29] Alan Seales: Okay, okay, good. My kids are going to think that’s very cool that I got to ask.

[7:33] Loki Mulholland: Yeah, it was great during the Avengers phenomenon, and so, yeah.

[7:39] Alan Seales: Well, wait, what is your shirt? Is that a fraternity shirt?

[7:43] Loki Mulholland: Yeah, it’s Omega Psi Phi Fraternity Incorporated. So, it’s one of the, what they call the Divine Nine, the nine black fraternity and sororities. HBCU.

[7:52] Alan Seales: HBCU.

[7:53] Loki Mulholland: This one was the first one found on HBCU, yeah. My mom’s a member of Delta Sigma Theta sorority, so.

[7:59] Alan Seales: That’s pretty cool. I mean, we’ll just call that what it is. We don’t often see white folks as part of those sororities and fraternities, but you guys earned it.

[8:09] Loki Mulholland: Yeah, we’re here. That’s pretty cool. A few of us hanging around, yeah.

[8:13] Alan Seales: I love that. Well, so, for those folks that are like, wait, what’s happening? Can you give us a little bit of background? I mean, like, when did you realize that your mom was a social justice icon, and how did that impact you growing up?

[8:29] Loki Mulholland: Well, gosh, that’s kind of weird, because it’s, well, we knew about the photos and stuff, and her friends would be over, and they would be telling old people stories, you know, like they’re in their 40s, and so, yeah, right? But that was just, you know, the people we knew and the things they did, so it really didn’t really quite register for us, and it wasn’t, I think kind of the first impact moment was when we were in high school, and the sit-in photo, the Jacksonville sit-in, with the pouring stuff on her head, you know, sugar, and she likes to say, like, I’m not sweet enough already, and that was in her history books, and I was like, why is mom in a history book, right?

[9:08] Heather Vickery: Oh wow, so you didn’t know enough, like, you were not prepared to see your mom in a history book.

[9:14] Loki Mulholland: No, I mean, and we’d seen that photo for years, obviously, but yeah, and then the Freedom Ride anniversary came in 2011, and I remember, I always say his name wrong, Tanahisi Coates, is that how you say his name?

[9:30] Alan Seales: Tanahasi.

[9:31] Loki Mulholland: Tanahasi Coates, okay. Yeah. Tanahasi Coates did a, posted a picture of my mom’s mugshot, and that blew up, and I know this was, you know, whatever he was writing for at the time, but he had, you know, posted this and did kind of an article, if you will, and there was all these comments about it and stuff, and I was like, wow, why are people so fascinated with my mom’s mugshot? You know, it’s just mom, and it kind of took on a life of its own, and I remember when I was making the film, and I thought maybe it was just me. Maybe I’m the only one who wasn’t paying attention, and all my brothers were like, yeah, when’s this film coming out? I’m like, oh, so none of us knew this story. It’s like, wow, she said we just weren’t paying attention, but that wasn’t really the case.

[10:23] Heather Vickery: How old were all of you? Was she still very active in everything she was doing when you guys were growing up? I mean, did you see this, or was it all, like, as much as when she was 19?

[10:36] Loki Mulholland: Right, and there she is again. Mom, what are you doing? We can’t, well, I don’t know, you’re not on screen. You do whatever you do, it’s your house.

[10:44] Alan Seales: It’s her house. She can, she has earned it. She can do whatever she wants.

[10:47] Loki Mulholland: She has all of our respect. You can have these bogeys in the background, but no, I mean, no, I mean, so, her active part of day in, day out, you know, times in the movement, and then when she graduated from college, because she felt that was kind of, she was part of the student movement, the SNCC, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, and just kind of felt like she didn’t want to be one of those people just kind of hung around way too long, and it was time to move on to the next chapter of her life. Now, that doesn’t mean that she wasn’t going back and participating in things like the Selma-Montgomery March, or the Meredith March Against Fear, or, you know, moving up the timeline to things like anti-apartheid and whatever else, but, so, we were, you know, I was born in ’72, so it was definitely, you know, years after that, but that influence was still there, right?

And again, we had plenty of people who would come over, and those conversations would be taking place, or we’d go, she would take us out to go and, you know, meet and listen to Bishop Desmond Tutu or whomever, right? So, and we’d go down to Mississippi all the time, so, yeah. So, that deep-seated sense of social justice was always just part of life. There’s a short answer, yeah.

[12:02] Heather Vickery: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that’s, I mean, I’m from the South. I’m from the South. We tell stories.

[12:07] Loki Mulholland: You tell stories. I love storytelling. I love it. I love it.

[12:09] Heather Vickery: It’s interesting that, I mean, the kids that you grow up, yeah, the people that raise you, or you don’t kind of understand how other people see them until you get much older, and it’s funny, the other day, like, with clips that I do, I put out clips for this podcast and my other podcast and things on YouTube and all over social media and everything, and so, like, my kids were literally on YouTube the other day, and they, like, they called me, like, Dad! Dad! You’re on YouTube! Are you famous?

[12:42] Loki Mulholland: No.

[12:46] Heather Vickery: You’re on YouTube! You must be famous!

[12:49] Loki Mulholland: No, no, I’m not. I’m not.

[12:52] Heather Vickery: Unlike Joan, who actually is famous.

[12:53] Loki Mulholland: Yeah, right, right, right.

[12:54] Heather Vickery: Yeah. It’s the difference with the onset of social media, right? I can remember my 20-year-old saying, when she was much younger, like, fourth, fifth, sixth grade, she was like, if I miss you when I’m at school, I just Google you on my Chromebook. Then you pop up, because I do have a presence. I have a neighbor, this is funny, who I was meeting somebody, and she was like, oh, Heather has a YouTube channel. And I was like, you are 50. You should know that that does not make me special. Anyone 13 or older can have a YouTube channel.

[13:31] Loki Mulholland: Not quite the same as seeing your mom in your history book at school.

[13:37] Heather Vickery: Right, but my point is, it’s a little different.

[13:38] Alan Seales: Any civil rights museum you go to, you know.

[13:40] Heather Vickery: No, I get it. I get it.

[13:42] Alan Seales: But you’re, yeah, I hear what you’re saying, Alan. Like, we, our parents are just our parents.

[13:47] Loki Mulholland: Right.

[13:48] Alan Seales: The other one’s always telling us what to do and what not to do until we get to a certain point.

[13:51] Loki Mulholland: Oh, doesn’t matter. I mean, I’m 54 years old, trust me.

[13:57] Alan Seales: But no, but I mean, yeah, there is a, you know, yes, I mean, it’s a little different.

[14:04] Loki Mulholland: When people are coming up to you, thanking you for your mom, and I'm like, I had nothing to do with that, right? I mean, she gave birth to me. But seeing people come up to her in tears, literally, just thanking her. She's so unassuming about it because they didn't do it for clout, for clicks, whatever. They did it because it was the right thing to do. She said, I ruined a perfectly good retirement. I mean, we travel all over the country and stuff. But it's important. I mean, these times that people learn these stories, because it's not just the Rosa Parks and Dr. King, like we teach in the history books. There were thousands of ordinary people like her. Well, no one was really like her, but they were out there making a difference.

And it feels like we're just almost back where we started. Not quite, but in some ways. I don't know, I'm 51, so just a little bit younger than you. And when I was learning about it, it felt like ancient history. It really certainly wasn't in the 80s and 90s when we were learning it in our history classes. Hence, it was your actual mother and folks like her and Ruby Bridges and all of that. The reminder that this was just a hot minute ago, and we have not gone very far. I don't want this whole interview to be about your mom because you've done so many amazing things, and I invited you to be on the show.

[15:43] Alan Seales: I get it. It's always about my mom.

[15:47] Loki Mulholland: How does your family, your mom and your family, does it feel so deflating for things to be where they are right now after all of that? How far backwards we seem to be going.

[15:57] Loki Mulholland: I don't know if it's deflating as much as it is. Quite frankly, a lot of it's just like, see, we told you, because it was always there. It was there. It just needed a demagogue to sit there and bring it to light and empower people to be that open about it. So it's always been there. I just think we definitely felt that we were making some progress. Let's be real. Progress has been made, but people definitely feel like things are rolling back. We remind people that, yes, we might be repeating history, but if we are, let's remember also to repeat the part where people like my mom and John Lewis and Medgar Evers and others stood up and decided they were going to do something about it. So we got to repeat that part too, because they gave us the blueprint for how to go about doing that, and we can do it. If they ended legal segregation and institution against what they faced without the tools that we have today, who are we to say we can't end what's going on today? And we will.

[17:17] Alan Seales: Wow. Mic drop moment. Going back to your childhood again though, specifically for you, when did you really start deciding that you wanted to be this author and filmmaker and documentarian and everything? Where did that start to pull into your life?

[17:27] Loki Mulholland: What year did Star Wars come out?

[17:33] Alan Seales: That's 77, was that what it was? 78?

[17:37] Loki Mulholland: Star Wars was your inspiration for being a filmmaker? I love that.

[17:41] Loki Mulholland: Oh, yeah. Oh, 100%. 77 was A New Hope?

[17:44] Alan Seales: A New Hope, yeah. We never called it that. It was just Star Wars.

[17:47] Loki Mulholland: It's just Star Wars. Yeah. No, there's nonsense they got going on now. But Mandalorian and Grogu. My daughter just graduated with a film degree, so I love that inspiration. I went to see the movie in theaters. I'm like, all right, this Star Wars, whatever. So I went to go see it. And then I saw the screen pitch video on YouTube, where they pitched the story. They do it in this very humorous way. And I'm like, that happened in the movie? I mean, I was like, wow, I must have fallen asleep at the end because it was so boring. I was like, man, this thing stinks. But no, Star Wars was my inspiration. And I knew I always wanted to be a filmmaker. I wrote my first screenplay when I was in the sixth grade. And I went to film school. I did all the things. My first film was actually a mockumentary, a satire, like a Christopher Guest type of film.

[18:50] Alan Seales: Really?

[18:50] Loki Mulholland: That's awesome. That was a satire. It was a little spinoff about network marketing, about Amway.

[18:58] Alan Seales: Oh, wow.

[19:00] Loki Mulholland: I think you can find it on Amazon. It's called Believe.

[19:05] Alan Seales: Oh, I bet it's great.

[19:07] Loki Mulholland: It deserves to have a mockumentary made about Amway. And it feels like that was almost in your social justice roots. Like, hold on a second. Who are you going to talk about?

[19:18] Loki Mulholland: Yeah. But I went to school to study documentary cinema. When we were growing up, we weren't allowed to watch sitcoms and things. My mom would let us maybe watch one episode because she couldn't stand the canned laughter, she said. So if we were doing laundry, which we had to iron our clothes and fold it and do those sort of things, we could watch TV then, but we had to watch PBS. We were watching a lot of National Geographic and 3-2-1 Contact and stuff like that.

[19:45] Alan Seales: John was a taskmaster.

[19:46] Loki Mulholland: 3-2-1 Contact.

[19:47] Alan Seales: Yeah. It's the feeling, it's emotional.

[19:51] Loki Mulholland: Oh, man. Did you get to watch The Electric Company?

[19:55] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah. No, that was in school. We watched that in school, actually.

[19:58] Loki Mulholland: Really? We definitely did.

[20:00] Alan Seales: I didn't like Sesame Street. I thought that was kind of boring in comparison to The Electric Company, because The Electric Company had Spider-Man. So that was cool.

[20:07] Loki Mulholland: And Morgan Freeman. It was great. We're going to take a quick break. Stay tuned for more of the episode. And now we're back. So you went to school for that. So then in 2011, explain what made you think, oh, hold on a minute. I'm a documentarian. This is my career. My mother is an icon. I need to tell this story.

[20:30] Loki Mulholland: Yeah. So I believe we did that in 2004. So a long time between films, seven years. I was raising kids and so forth, and I just had my job. But I had done a short film in college about the Jackson sit-in, the Jacksonville sit-in. And so I felt like, this anniversary is coming along, and the Freedom Rides and so forth. And there was this, again, with Coates' post about my mom's mugshot. I was like, wow, there's this really weird interest. So let me explore this. And actually, the film idea was to do a film about the Jackson sit-in and these different lives and how they converge at the lunch counter. But every time I pitched the story, people were like, who's this lady named my mom? And I remember I was actually looking for funding for the film, and we sat down with this person. I won't say names.

[21:36] Alan Seales: But we would know who it is, is what you're saying.

[21:38] Loki Mulholland: Yeah. Some folks would definitely know who she is. And we were sitting there, and they had actually just did a project, which my mom was a part of, and they're getting ready to do this big tour throughout the country. And I was like, well, I want to do a film about, I think I just said Joan Mulholland or something, whatever. And she's like, oh, I know Joan, because of this whole project they did. She goes, well, why would she want to do a story with you? And I looked at my friend who had introduced us. I'm like, because she's my mom, right? And all of a sudden it was just like, then they switched into, oh, can she come and speak with Harry Belafonte at Sundance about the music and the movement?

I said, oh, she knows Harry, but no, she's not. She's got a prior commitment, which happened to be, which was true. I wasn't going to lie about it, but the prior commitment was my brother's kid's fourth grade class in Florida. But I already knew what this was about. I was like, nah. And then when we finished the film, and then we made the film and she was like, I can't believe you actually made the film. And I'm like, what are you talking about? You saw me with the camera, Ma. Well, not my mom, but no, the producer lady. The producer lady was like, I can't believe you actually made the movie. But no, so it became every time I would ask someone to do an interview or I'd call a place, ask if we can use a photograph or shoot the location. I was just, use my mom, name drop my mother. And they'd be like, for Joan, anything.

[23:15] Alan Seales: Wow.

[23:15] Loki Mulholland: It's like, oh, what's that about, right? And so, the film really became in the editing room, the story of the journey of my mom through the movement, but telling these different aspects of the movement, of the student movement in particular. Now, we didn't get into SCLC and Dr. King and those sorts of things. I mean, we do mention Dr. King because she met him and she worked in the March on Washington office, but it really just became this focus on my mom and why she did what she did. And so, yeah, it's so fascinating to people and still resonates today.

[23:54] Alan Seales: It's fascinating. I mean, it's fascinating to me too, but you said she was working in the office with Dr. King, but you said that she considered her time as an activist over after college, but obviously not.

[24:11] Loki Mulholland: Well, the act of day to day, right? The day in, day out commitment. The getting arrested part.

[24:19] Alan Seales: Right. Because she was a member, she was a part of SCLC and the student movement itself. So, she saw herself in that. And there were people, I'm not going to say who, but there were people who kind of hung around too long or would use that as their calling card for their glory, harking back to their glory days and so forth, and just never really kind of moved on into other things that were going on. They would live in the movement.

[24:53] Loki Mulholland: So, this film did well. I mean, it catapulted. Again, this was already your career and this kind of then became the focal point now of your career. This is how I discovered you and-

[25:06] Loki Mulholland: Yeah, but that wasn't intentional. It was the next film to do. And if I didn't do it, what would people say? Like, man, you had this film, this story right in front of you, why didn't you do it? I was a filmmaker. And then some people were like, well, that was a little easy. I mean, you had this incredible story right in front of you. Of course you did it, right? But it was during the filming of that film that became the real catalyst because Luvon Brown, who's one of the Freedom Riders and he's a black Mississippian who said my mom was the first white person they ever trusted with his life. And there's quite a story around that as well, even though she almost got him killed a couple of times.

She's over at me. She's right here looking at me like, what? I'm telling stories. But he had said something before the camera crew showed up. We're sitting there and he said, everyone knows where the drugs are, but you'll never see a SWAT team ready to university, but you'll always find them in the hood. So, why is that? And I thought I knew a few things, but the way he said it just triggered something in me to do a deep dive about the history of institutional racism. And so, as I was doing that, it transformed into this film about our family's journey through this history as well. Because we go back to Jamestown in 1610, we helped start the whole thing in creating this institution of slavery in America and so forth.

And then my mom's story comes along, right? So, that became The Uncomfortable Truth and that had dropped in 2017. So, now I shoot this film in 2011. An Ordinary Hero comes out in 2013. 2015, we shoot The Uncomfortable Truth, which drops in 2017. So, this window is compressing about the number of films I make. And then it just becomes, you're the guy who does all these civil rights films. So, suddenly, without knowing it, I was actually shooting three films at the same time, not even realizing it. One was about racism through the lens of transracial adoptions in Utah. The other one was about the killers of Emmett Till and what actually really happened. And then another one was about the Evers family, about Medgar Evers and his family, that Nina Evers had approached me and said, can you do what you did for your mom, for our family?

So, I had those films going on. Now, all of a sudden, we're sitting in 2020 as well. And then Amazon positions that film. And then we also had, after Selma, about voting suppression and what happened to our voting rights after the Selma-Montgomery March. So, 2020 happens.

[28:06] Loki Mulholland: Amazon positions particularly The Uncomfortable Truth as one of these narratives that we should be learning. They had all these black films and so forth, black history type stuff. That film just blows up and they don’t do that anymore. All the other films kind of cascaded from that and continues today to now. My latest film, we haven’t even dropped it yet, but we just finished, called Black Water. It’s about this case called Hawkins v. The Town of Shaw. Andrew Hawkins one day walked out his door in Shaw, Mississippi and looked down the road and realized that the paved roads, the sewer lines, all those things ended where the black neighborhood began. So, he sues and he wins and that’s when real trouble begins.

But the film's about this precedence case and about the inequalities that exist in infrastructure today. We haven’t released that yet, but we do have a short film we released about Anthony Stewart, who was this black man who in Virginia, 68 IQ, was found incompetent and unrestorable, and yet they convicted him anyways. It’s been 40 years and he has end-stage renal disease. That film on freetonynow.org, our foundation has been promoting to be able to—we want him out of prison. We’ve been working with the family and everything to help make that happen, get him pardoned, because we don’t do parole in Virginia, by the way. We’re tough on crime.

[29:44] Loki Mulholland: It’s such important, amazing work. I’m sure you don’t think it’s amazing. It just happened. It just happened, quite frankly. People just—let me give you an example. Jerry Mitchell calls me, and he’s this investigative reporter in Mississippi, and he’s got this interview that he’s going to do related to Emmett Till. He’s like, would you be willing to capture this interview for me in Chicago? I said, yes, but only if we do a documentary about all this. Then one day, someone said, you’re the guy who does all the civil rights movies. I’m like, I don’t do civil rights movies. I look back and I’m like, oh, my last eight films were about civil rights. I guess I am. To me, it was just what I do. Now it’s intentional in respects to going, okay, that’s my focus of what I’m just going to do is these sort of films, because I have a position and a platform to be able to do that and responsibility to continue the work my mother’s done.

That’s it, the responsibility. You didn’t create this situation, but we all do have a responsibility for doing what we can to change it. The movies are so important. The work is so important because most Americans, and I will go on the limit and say most, have no idea what the systemic structural racism is that makes them is the foundation of literally everything and what we think is normal or good or right or all of that. I just wish opposite of everything that’s happening in the education system in America. I just wish your films were what people were studying.

[31:21] Loki Mulholland: I appreciate that. In some schools, they are. We have teachers who are brave enough to show our films. Tell us about that. I created this foundation with the naïve idea that it would help in regards of education. Working with schools apparently doesn’t matter whatsoever, but we’ve been able to use that platform. We now do scholarships, what we call microscholars for HBCU students. It helps with fundraising to be able to do the things that we do in regards of sharing this history and preserving it and so forth. There is that. In education, we’ve been able to provide educational material regarding the civil rights movement and so forth. My mom and I, we speak at schools as well when we can. We actually just finished a two-year pilot program with the middle school and high school teaching students about life, leadership skills, and the civil rights story through a book.

The book is the catalyst for it, but it’s called Get Back to the Counter, Seven Lessons from a Civil Rights Icon. It’s these seven principles. We use that for professional development as well as teaching these kids, and we’re going to be launching that pretty soon. We’re just finalizing the final videos and things like that on the pilot program that we did. There’s a lot.

[32:59] Loki Mulholland: When did the authoring come in, the writing? Someone approached us about doing a kid’s book. Well, I should take that back. A friend of mine actually said, you know, have you ever thought about doing a kid’s book? I said, well, let’s do it together, so we did. Angela Frailwell, I’ve known her since, I don’t know, fourth grade, maybe, third grade, second grade. Oh, my mom will crack me. Second grade. I’m Angela, so second grade. We found this illustrator to do it, and it’s this really kind of wild style they do called retro collage. My mom’s like, if you’re going to do one, you can’t do that Disney art crap. I’m like, okay. It’s got to look, you know. Disney art crap. Like everybody else does, but yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Well, now everything is AI now, even worse. So, we had that book, and a publisher approached us. He was like, hey, have you ever thought about doing a book? I’m like, actually, we have one already. So, we turned that into two books, two different reading levels, and then we were with Ruby at some festival of some sort, and she had a book. Well, yeah, we already mentioned that Ruby Bridges earlier, so I just assumed people knew who I was talking about, Mom. She’s right there. Just as Joan in the background, driving her backseat. Peter Kelly. Yeah, 100% Ruby Bridges. So, she had a book that was like this early reader. I took that and modeled our book after that. My mom’s story is really the most important part of her story is when she’s 10 years old.

So, we have, you know, the photographs and so forth, you know, and the text and things like that. So, this is actually once my mom signed. Aw, I know. I want to get a signed copy. How can we order a signed copy of Joan’s book? Go to the website. There you go, guys. You can get it on the website. Yeah, go to the website.

[34:47] Loki Mulholland: Yeah, so, we had the kid’s book, and I realized I had this space where we didn’t have a biography of my mom, but I didn’t want to do a traditional biography. So, I wanted people to actually learn something. So, that became the book, Get Back to the Counter. And now, we actually do have an official biography that’s being done by the author, Devery Anderson, who did kind of definitive work on Emmett Till and did a book on Clyde Kennard. I think it’s The Slow Intentional Lynching of Clyde Kennard. So, he’s doing that book. When is your mom’s biography supposed to be out? It takes a long time. We know that. It takes a long time. I have another book I’m hoping I might have out next year called, well, what am I calling it?

Morning Talk with Mom and Other Conversations. So, over the years, I’ve been capturing all these different conversations I’ve had with my mom, but they’re like these short conversations people have with me or people who have my mom. So, for example, this morning, during this interview, I captured this morning. You can’t see that. It’s too bright. It says, Morning Talk with Mom. But this reporter was asking her about what do you think of the Bible Belt Churches? He’s referencing, obviously, this Christian nationalist movement type of thing. He says, how they were back then. She goes, well, and now? He’s like, well, yeah. She says, well, they aren’t practicing what they preach. She says, well, actually, they probably are practicing what they preach, meaning to hate their teaching.

So, what I’m doing is taking these kind of, my mom’s quick with little barbs, but taking those and then have a conversation. Then, what’s the context around that historically? What my mom is referencing? So, I’ve got probably about 50 of these that I’ve stored up.

[36:48] Loki Mulholland: You make flashcards. I feel like it could be really good. Well, like someone I remember once, we were speaking at a college in Utah. This guy kept asking these questions. He was one of these Charlie Kirk types. He kept, this was a few years ago, before Charlie Kirk even happened, but he kept asking these little questions. I’m like, who keeps picking this guy to ask these questions, right? I mean, a whole audience there. Finally, my mom was getting sick and tired of him. Finally, he’s like, well, what do you think the biggest problem Black people face today is? My mom said, white people. Nice question. The room erupted in laughter. It just shut him down so fast. He’s like, okay, I’m done with you.

That’s awesome. That’s the energy we need. I’m done with the bullshit. Let’s really just speak the truth. She could be like, and if you want to know why, watch all my son’s films. No. I’m talking if I even had Uncomfortable Truth out at that point. I think I’m still shooting it. Maybe. Yeah.

[38:05] Alan Seales: So then how do you actually describe yourself? If we’re in an elevator for 10 seconds, and I’m like, Loki, other than Thor’s brother, who are you?

[38:10] Loki Mulholland: Joan’s son.

[38:12] Alan Seales: And if people don’t know?

[38:14] Loki Mulholland: I don’t have a name.

[38:15] Alan Seales: Which Joan you’re talking about?

[38:18] Loki Mulholland: No, but I mean, filmmaker, author, activist, you carry all this on yourself, too. This is who you are now. Well, as my mom said, history isn’t finished. It’s waiting for you. We got to be doing it. But how do you describe yourself? What project do you wake up on and do in the morning? Well, I didn’t get my film degree until a couple, three years ago. So it took 30 years to get my film degree.

[38:46] Alan Seales: Wow.

[38:47] Loki Mulholland: Funny story, because I was trapped in Russia and everything else.

[38:49] Alan Seales: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on a minute. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up.

[38:57] Loki Mulholland: That’s a whole different story.

[38:58] Alan Seales: You don’t gloss over that. We do not let you gloss over that. Okay.

[39:02] Loki Mulholland: How did you get trapped in Russia and why?

[39:05] Loki Mulholland: All right. So I was at the college studying film and studying Russian, and I had the opportunity to go to Russia between my junior and senior year and study at Moscow State University. This is pre-Putin, of course. Yeltsin was still president. I was offered an opportunity to extend my stay teaching English. I was like, yeah, that would be great. What I didn’t know was that the folks that made this offer didn’t actually extend my visa. So when it was time for me to leave the country, I’m at the airport, and they’re like, yes, you’re here illegally.

[39:43] Alan Seales: And Russia doesn’t play.

[39:45] Loki Mulholland: Right. I was like, oh, these guys got their collision calls and stuff. I’m like, oh, what do you mean? Well, your visa expired. I’m like, oh, well, my plane’s right there. I can just get on it and leave. I don’t know how that works. You’re here illegally. I’m like, well, maybe that’s why. Maybe it should work, right? Like, you want to get rid of me. Let me go.

[40:02] Alan Seales: Yeah. Literally, I mean, trying to leave your country.

[40:05] Loki Mulholland: You can’t leave because you’re here illegally. That’s what I was told.

[40:08] Alan Seales: What? So did you get arrested?

[40:10] Loki Mulholland: Well, no, but I started playing the dumb American like I didn’t know any Russian or anything, and then they started talking smack about me, and I’m just tired and everything else. I’m like 20 years old as well, you know? And I blew up on them on Russian. Just cursed them up one side down and the other. And they take me to this back room, and I’m like, oh, crap. And they’re like, hey, look, we’re really sorry, man, but you have to go to the OVR office, which is the visa office, but it’s closed at the airport, right? And so you have to go downtown, but everything’s closed because it’s some holiday. They have a holiday every other day. There are some war or whatever. So I had to go back and call my mom, like, hey, I’m not going to be on that flight, by the way. I’m trapped here. I got to figure this out. So she says, well, hang tight. We’re going to take a quick break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[41:03] Alan Seales: And now we’re back.

[41:04] Loki Mulholland: So meanwhile, I go to the embassy, and they’re like, yeah, there’s nothing we can do for you, buddy. I’m like, what do you mean? They go, well, 10% of the Americans who come over here who have visa problems never leave. They never get resolved. I’m like, so you mean they never leave the country? They’re like, no, eventually they get resolved. I’m like, well, quick, fix my problem, and I’ll get out of here.

[41:23] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[41:24] Loki Mulholland: Like, well, that’s not how it works. And so I was like, you know, again, I’m 20. I’m like, look, if I have to make some phone calls, I’m not going to apologize for who had us roll. The guy goes, take your best shot. I’m like, dang it. So I leave, call my mom. She goes, hang tight. She calls back.

[42:09] Loki Mulholland: The ambassador for the military, if you will. So, I’m meeting with him. He’s like, I can’t do anything for you. This is the military. That’s diplomacy. He says, but what I can do is I can put you up in an apartment downtown until we get this resolved, get this figured out, and so forth. So, I’m 20 years old in a three-bedroom apartment in downtown Moscow, fully stocked fridge, European MTV piped in. It’s not the worst situation.

[42:36] Alan Seales: So, the American embassy, you said, sets you up?

[42:40] Loki Mulholland: They said. The head defense attache did.

[42:46] Alan Seales: Even better.

[42:50] Loki Mulholland: So, then, we finally get the phone call, and they’ve got a letter for you. Follow their instructions. I go back. It’s the same guy at the window that I was at before. I’m like, now I’m feeling, again, I’m 20. So, I go up there. I’m like, I believe you have something for me. He’s like, I’m very sorry, Mr. Mulholland. He slides this letter underneath the window. It’s sealed. He’s like, take this letter back to the OVR’s office. Do not open it. If they ask you, I’m making up a name now. I don’t remember at this point, but if they ask you if you know Viktor Ivanovich, you tell them yes. So, who’s that? He says, well, he’s the head OVR officer for the entire country. I don’t know who you called, but I apologize. I said, I had to do what I had to do, which was nothing, of course. I didn’t do anything.

[43:44] Loki Mulholland: So, I go to the OVR’s office. It’s the same bureaucrat that I had seen before. I plop it down and sit at his desk. He’s like, Stotiko, what’s this? That’s a dumb eye. Go ahead. So, he takes it, opens it up, and his eyes are just saucers. He’s like, do you know Viktor Ivanovich? I said, yes, of course. Stay up. Boom. You can go. So, I get on the next flight. I’m out. I’m home. Well, come to find out that my mom knew a few people. My brother worked in Hillary’s office. But I think the main thing was my dad’s friend was friends with Boris Yeltsin.

[44:25] Alan Seales: Oh, shit. Your dad. That’ll do it.

[44:32] Loki Mulholland: Wow. Wow. I think that was that. So, I never quite got a complete story on that one, but that was pretty much my assumption was. I mean, she’s right behind you. You could ask her right now. Well, obviously, she knew John and so forth, some Congress people. We live in Arlington, Virginia. You can’t sing a dead cat without hitting some representative. But my brother was working in the East Wing. My mom’s co-worker’s husband was working in the West Wing, and then we had Boris Yeltsin in our pocket, apparently. I feel like that could be its own really fun documentary.

[45:05] Alan Seales: That’s crazy.

[45:06] Loki Mulholland: Nonetheless. Have you ever thought about doing an audio documentary in podcast form? I know a guy.

[45:12] Loki Mulholland: Yeah. Well, we did a podcast for a couple years, but I haven’t had time to follow up on that. Anyway, so, I never went back to Ithaca College. Life happened. My mom and I, in Louvain, Brown, we’re all speaking at Ithaca College. The dean of the film school was like, we love it when our alumni come back. I said, alumni? I never graduated. Like, what do you mean? I told him the story. I was like, wow. So, they said, well, I mean, did you finish school? I said, yeah. I eventually got a degree, and I had gone to a couple of different schools and stuff like that. I was like, they said, well, let’s pull your transcripts. I said, what about my film, my final film project? They’re like, well, we think you’ve done that by now. I’ve done like nine or eight films. So, sure enough, they pulled the transcripts, and I get a letter that I actually got a film degree, 2024. I think it was, 23, 24.

[46:08] Loki Mulholland: Well, then I get a call. So, I tell my kids, my youngest is still in college at that point. She’s like, yeah, that’s not for real. That’s an honorary degree. That’s fake. I was like, well, you’re just jealous, because you don’t even have one degree, and I’ve got two now. Then I get a phone call or email from the president of Ithaca College’s office. They said, well, President Legerne would like, do you have time for a phone call with him? I’m like, yeah, sure, of course. She goes, hey, just wanted to say congratulations, blah, blah, blah. I’m like, hey, no, thank you very much. I’m really touched. She goes, yeah, you finally get a film degree. She’s like, no, I’m talking about the honorary doctorate. I’m like, what? So, she goes, yeah, well, you were unanimously approved by the board for an honorary doctorate. They were so moved by your story and all the work you had done that they want to give you an honorary degree, doctorate.

[47:06] Loki Mulholland: Oh, wow, that’s cool. So, come to the graduation in May. Well, do I get a walk because I got a degree? She goes, well, you don’t get a walk because you’re only going to be up there. But you will get your degree as well as the honorary doctorate. Cool. Is there anything we can do for you? In the meantime, as a matter of fact, there is. My daughter thinks that my degree is fake. She goes, I had nothing to do with it. I’m like, well, can you tell her that? She goes, sure. I said, but don’t mention the honorary doctorate yet. So, she goes, okay, I’m going to record this. I record this message for you. She goes, this is Addie. That’s my daughter, Addie. This is President Lejeune, the 10th president of the college.

You should be really proud of your father. He earned this degree. This film degree is really his. I had nothing to do with it, blah, blah, blah. So, I finished that. I texted it to my daughter, said, in your face, and sent it to her. So, she calls me and says, the fact that you could get a college president to do that for you tells me everything. I’m like, man, you little snot.

[48:03] Loki Mulholland: So, I still hadn’t told her about the honorary doctorate. So, she comes home for Christmas and did her thing, and I had a special present wrapped up just for her. I said, no, I want to give you something. This is just for you. She goes, well, what is it? I said, it’s a family heirloom, something for you to treasure the rest of your life. She goes, is this your degree? I’m like, no, it’s not my degree. And then she opens it, and it’s honorary doctorate. She goes, you’re so stupid, but nonetheless. But yeah. Wow, that’s cool. I agree you earned it, though.

[48:40] Loki Mulholland: So, to answer your question, I never related myself as a filmmaker until I actually got that degree. Despite the fact that you had made nine films by then. Right, yeah. I did thousands of sorts and everything else, corporate stuff over the years. That’s crazy. But yeah, I don’t know what I would label myself. Other people have labeled me at that point, but we’ve been going to my mom’s regional conferences for Delta Sigma Theta, my mom’s sorority, and she’s well-known in the sorority and stuff. Here she is. I don’t have a name there. My only name is where’s your mother? Or is your mom here? They don’t even say, hi, Loki. It’s just straight to the point. Where’s your mom? So, I’m Jones’ son. That’s how I identified.

And at the end of the day, you know, it’s funny. It’s the thing I tried to escape all my life. I didn’t go to Tougaloo College, where she went, because I didn’t want to be that guy. And yet, that’s what it’s become. And Reena Evers, Medgar’s daughter, said, you know, that’s your responsibility, your burden, whatever you want to call it, to continue that legacy. And for me doing it the way that I do it, I’m not going to do what my mom did, per se, at the lunch counters and things like that. I mean, I probably would if I had to, but we have to find our own way of doing things. And mine is telling the stories and making sure that hers is preserved and those of others as well, that we don’t forget these things, that, you know, the truth isn’t hidden anymore.

[50:16] Alan Seales: Well, what do you want people to remember about the path to apply right now? Like, as we’re winding down here, in this hour we’ve had, we’re not winding down social justice, but what do you, what’s one thing people can do right now that’s really going to push, hopefully will push things forward?

[50:42] Loki Mulholland: A vote. At the end of the day, you got to vote. And people are like, you know, voting doesn’t matter. It’s like, well, you know, it matters so much to doing everything they can to take your vote, you know, your right to vote away. And it matters, it works, it’s so effective that, that man’s back in office. You can say hook or crook, whatever you want, but enough people voted for him. And there’s like, the right, and the right places to make that happen. That’s how effective it is.

[51:11] Alan Seales: Active gerrymandering going on, right?

[51:13] Loki Mulholland: Well, sure.

[51:14] Alan Seales: Oh, and beyond.

[51:15] Loki Mulholland: Well, and beyond. I did a whole documentary on it, but go watch it.

[51:19] Alan Seales: What was it? Wait, what’s the name of that one? We all need to watch that one.

[51:22] Loki Mulholland: After Selma.

[51:23] Alan Seales: After Selma, okay.

[51:25] Loki Mulholland: But the, I mean, the fact of the matter is, is Apathy won. He didn’t win, Apathy won. More people didn’t vote that should have voted. And if you want to see the direct, right, but if you want to see the direct impact of not voting, what happens, or the inverse of that of what happens when you do vote, because those people did vote, right? Heaven help us, you know, who they selected. But you can see the impact of the policies and everything that has transpired for people who decided they wanted to protest vote by not voting or, you know, complain about, you know, who the candidate is and so forth. Well, if you don’t like the candidate that, you know, that was hoisted upon you, whatever, be it at local elections or whatever, then show up to the primaries. That’s where you decide who it’s going to be. You know, if you don’t like it, your point of complaint is over when you didn’t show up for the process.

[52:18] Loki Mulholland: As LeVon Brown once said, you know, if you don’t vote, your candidate won, because you felt it was, it didn’t matter who was going to be in office, you were okay with it. So, we know the power of voting, and if you want to understand that power, just look at how hard they’re trying to keep people from voting or to convince you that it doesn’t matter.

[52:39] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[52:39] Loki Mulholland: But voting makes, the civil rights activists understood that. They saw, yes, you can set the lunch counter, yes, we can ride the buses and do those things, but if we can’t vote, nothing’s really going to change. And they were willing to kill people to keep people from voting, beat them to an inch of their lives, like John Lewis on the end of Tennis Bridge, or kill people like, you know, Cheney, Goodman, and Schwander, and Freedom Summer, Mississippi. So, I mean, yeah, voting is critical.

[53:07] Alan Seales: And fighting for the right to vote.

[53:08] Loki Mulholland: We can complain about the process, and the parties, and so forth, and whatnot, but yeah, we got to vote. We know the results of when we do, so.

[53:20] Alan Seales: Oh, I got heavy fast.

[53:21] Loki Mulholland: That’s, at the end of the day, that’s what it needs to be.

[53:24] Alan Seales: It’s true, you’re right, yeah.

[53:26] Loki Mulholland: And my mom once said, you know, I can’t do everything, but I can do something, because doing nothing’s not an option. It means you got to do that something. But pick your something. But by golly, making sure voting is one of them. That’s the default. It shouldn’t be anything less than that. I mean, I remember, I lived in Utah for a number of years. And when Obama’s second term, I remember telling my mom, I’m just not going to vote this time. It’s Utah. It’s not going to matter. And she said, you know, my friend’s died, so you can vote. How do you argue with that?

[54:00] Alan Seales: How do you argue, right?

[54:01] Loki Mulholland: Yeah.

[54:01] Alan Seales: You know?

[54:02] Loki Mulholland: Yeah.

[54:02] Alan Seales: I grew up in a nonpolitical, middle-class, white, Republican household in Indiana, right?

[54:15] Loki Mulholland: Oh, gosh. Home of the Klan.

[54:17] Alan Seales: Yeah. My grandmother lived right there, in Mooresville.

[54:21] Loki Mulholland: Yeah.

[54:22] Alan Seales: I was told once not to wear my Michael Jackson button to my grandma’s house, because the Grand Dragon wouldn’t like it.

[54:26] Loki Mulholland: Right.

[54:29] Alan Seales: Huh?

[54:30] Loki Mulholland: It was the Thriller button that I followed, yeah.

[54:33] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[54:34] Loki Mulholland: Yeah. But Indiana had the largest Klan population.

[54:37] Alan Seales: Absolutely.

[54:39] Loki Mulholland: But we didn’t talk about it. And actually, well, everybody’s racist. My parents were racist, you know, but I could see when I look back, I could see ways that they were inching away, but they didn’t know. And their foundation, their default was definitely their default. But I didn’t know. I was never aware of my mom voting or anything about it. But I have taken my kids with me to vote from the time they were little babies. I would take them right in with me. And, you know, I can’t make them do anything, but I definitely am on their asses about making sure they’re voting in every single local election, every primary, every everything.

[55:20] Loki Mulholland: Oh, yeah. No, I mean, we go the same way. I mean, obviously, my mom and so forth. But my grandparents, they were always, you know, very political in that regards. And so we were constantly hard to bond. Politics was always part of our lives. Kind of hard to escape when you live right outside D.C. anyways. But, yeah.

[55:42] Alan Seales: Yeah. And I’m hoping that we’ll get the answer to this question in your mom’s biography. But were your grandparents progressive or liberal-leaning, or was she the exception?

[55:55] Loki Mulholland: No. Her father was. Her mom was a segregationist to the day she died.

[56:01] Alan Seales: Wow.

[56:03] Loki Mulholland: Yeah. You know, they just, you know, love has a way of doing things. And I guess, you know, whatever else was going on.

[56:12] Loki Mulholland: The elevator at the old postal building in D.C. as well, on the night shift. But they just agreed to disagree. And quite frankly, back in those days, the woman ruled the roost when it came to the house itself, and the way my mom talks about it. And so, my grandfather, he worked for the State Department. Is that right? State Department, Mom? Yeah, State Department. And then with the USAID type stuff. But he actually, one day, had brought home a coworker or somebody who was coming from Africa, was visiting from Africa, and brought them home for dinner. He was like, look, guess who's coming to dinner, type thing. And my grandmother, while she was polite, as you can be as a racist, refused to leave the kitchen to cook the dinner.

It was on the table, but she was not going to sit down and eat. She stayed in the kitchen. And so, emphatically, that's never happened again. It happened again, but you know. And then her daughter turned out to be your mom. Oh, my gosh. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. There's actually, there was a letter in one of our books, but it was written by the warden of the prison, of Parchman Prison, when she was on death row. And it was just like, how is it that you could let her run with these Negro bucks and blah, blah, blah, all this sort of racist stuff? And my grandmother, instead of defending her daughter, defends her honor, her own honor. Founder. Right? Not about the welfare of her daughter, who's sitting in prison in Mississippi, in the most notorious prison in America.

It's all about her Southern honor. My sweet little girl, she was caught up in this. They thought it was some sort of cult. She was brainwashed anyways. She never recognized that my mom had a degree, even though she graduated from college. Never recognized her degree because she went to a Black college, an HBCU. Yeah. Her last words, pretty much her last words to my mom was, Joni, they've got me in a colored room. And she was in this hospital because there was a Black woman in the next bed over. My mom said she bit her lip. Bit her tongue. She was going to say, well, what color is the room, mom? That's what I would say, yeah. The room is blue. So she's like, yeah. She's like, yeah, I'll see you tomorrow, mom. And she died that night. Wow. Goodness. It's interesting.

[58:42] Alan Seales: What's the business for your grandfather then, continuing to push that forward and laying that foundation?

[58:47] Loki Mulholland: Right? Yeah. It's just interesting when you have kids. Hate and bigotry is taught. It's a learned behavior.

[58:54] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah.

[58:55] Loki Mulholland: You're not born that way.

[58:57] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[58:58] Loki Mulholland: Yeah. So it's just great that your mom and people, when you see unfounded bigotry, that they're like, wait, that doesn't make sense. It just doesn't compute.

[59:10] Alan Seales: And I think it's-

[59:16] Loki Mulholland: It's not logical.

[59:17] Alan Seales: No, it's not logical.

[59:18] Loki Mulholland: Power.

[59:19] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[59:20] Loki Mulholland: Perceived power.

[59:21] Alan Seales: Yeah, I get it too. We've tried to explain racism to our kids. I mean, we live in New York City.

[59:26] Loki Mulholland: Well, and Alan's children are Asian.

[59:32] Alan Seales: Half Asian, yeah. So they're going, we're encouraging whatever identity you want to check on that box, you do that.

[59:39] Loki Mulholland: Right, knock yourself out.

[59:40] Alan Seales: Knock yourself out, yeah. Do mix, whatever you want. And then some people, we've tried to explain, there will be times in your life when people will try to make fun of you just because your mom is Asian. And they're like, but why? That doesn't make any sense. And I said, well, yep.

[59:59] Loki Mulholland: That doesn't have to make sense.

[1:00:01] Alan Seales: Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

[1:00:05] Alan Seales: Loki, I want to know if you have the foundation, how can folks, if they want to donate or get what you're doing in their school, how can folks do that?

[1:00:11] Loki Mulholland: Yeah, yeah. We take all the donations we can get. Yeah, well, you go to the foundation's website. We have a couple of URLs. Probably the simplest one is Beajoan. So don't be a Karen, Beajoan.

[1:00:27] Alan Seales: I love that so much.

[1:00:30] Loki Mulholland: That's a Boston Globe article, so we took that. We actually have t-shirts with my mom's mugshot that says, don't be a Karen, be a Joan.

[1:00:35] Alan Seales: I want one.

[1:00:36] Loki Mulholland: Yeah, you can buy those on your website.

[1:00:38] Alan Seales: Okay.

[1:00:39] Loki Mulholland: Beajoan.org or Google her name, you'll find the website, but it's also the J-T-M, the Joan Trump, our mall, the T-H-E-J-T-M foundation.org. But yeah, you can donate to the general fund or if you really want to specifically to the HBCU micro scholarship fund, we do three scholarships a week during the school year, about 100 a year.

[1:01:02] Alan Seales: Wow.

[1:01:03] Loki Mulholland: Sadly, we've had over 4,000 students apply each year. And so our goal is to increase from 100 to 1,000. That takes a lot of donations. I mean, quite frankly, if everyone who follows us on social media donated a dollar a month, we would hit that the next day. Just in one month, we would clear that threshold instantly.

[1:01:26] Alan Seales: Wow.

[1:01:28] Loki Mulholland: But you know, psh. Donate. Everything makes a difference. School-wise stuff, we're going to be launching this program shortly. They'll get on the newsletter and they can get on that newsletter and start learning about when we launched that program for students. And yeah, so there's a myriad of ways to do things. Just make a choice.

[1:01:51] Alan Seales: Wow.

[1:01:52] Loki Mulholland: Yeah.

[1:01:54] Alan Seales: That's awesome. That's awesome. Alan, do you have anything else?

[1:01:59] Alan Seales: No, that-

[1:02:01] Loki Mulholland: Yeah, it's profound.

[1:02:02] Alan Seales: I, yeah, to be in the presence of people who just live and breathe this and not just say, like, oh, that happened in history, but like people like yourself, like your mom, like still just actively doing this every day, trying to still fight. I mean, it's, I hate the term inspirational, but it is. It's-

[1:02:25] Loki Mulholland: Oh, perfect.

[1:02:26] Alan Seales: I mean, it's one of those things where we all have our micro and our macro problems that we deal with on a daily basis. And the macro problems, I guess, they affect all of us. It's kind of give me a little reality check talking to you too, because I'm in a super large echo chamber here in New York City. But like, yeah, I go back to North Carolina very rarely now on purpose, because that's where I'm from and where my parents still are. And it's not a culture I like being around. And I guess it's kind of on me to help change that a little bit.

[1:03:01] Loki Mulholland: Right. Right.

[1:03:03] Alan Seales: You didn't cause the problem, but it is your responsibility. Mine too. Everyone's.

[1:03:06] Loki Mulholland: If I don't do it, it'll be my kids' problem.

[1:03:10] Alan Seales: Old song was, you know, let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me.

[1:03:13] Loki Mulholland: Yeah.

[1:03:14] Alan Seales: There you go.

[1:03:16] Alan Seales: I have a little favor. Would you be willing to take your headphones out and have your mom come over and say hi?

[1:03:22] Loki Mulholland: I knew you're going to ask that.

[1:03:26] Alan Seales: I'm sorry. I know. I really want to make it all about you, but also she's an icon.

[1:03:31] Loki Mulholland: I get it. Hey, mom.

[1:03:33] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: Yeah, I can hear you.

[1:03:34] Alan Seales: Okay.

[1:03:37] Alan Seales: Say hi to the good folks.

[1:03:41] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: Hi, good folks.

[1:03:42] Alan Seales: Hey, Miss Joan.

[1:03:44] Alan Seales: Stand back for a moment. Let me see your shirt here. So show them who's on your shirt.

[1:03:48] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: This is one of the shirts we have on our website.

[1:03:50] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: Well, I'm in the middle.

[1:03:52] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: Straighten it out a little bit. There we go.

[1:03:53] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: Then we've got John Lewis and we've got Stokely Carmichael, good friends of mine.

[1:04:01] Alan Seales: Oh, I love that. America 250, folks, not Freedom 250.

[1:04:10] Alan Seales: Joan, thank you so much for all of the amazing things that you've done for the country.

[1:04:15] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: Well, I did what the Spirit said do and what I thought needed doing.

[1:04:20] Alan Seales: We are grateful for you. Thank you for popping over and saying hi to us.

[1:04:23] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: My pleasure. Thank you for wanting me to.

[1:04:27] Alan Seales: Absolutely. Your son's a cool guy.

[1:04:30] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: I raised him pretty good.

[1:04:31] Alan Seales: You did good.

[1:04:32] Loki Mulholland: You did.

[1:04:35] Alan Seales: Thank you, Joan.

[1:04:36] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: Thank you.

[1:04:38] Loki Mulholland: Thank you so much. This was a great conversation.

[1:04:41] Alan Seales: We're really honored that you chose to spend some time with us.

[1:04:43] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: I appreciate it. And you got to talk to a Freedom Rider. Look at that.

[1:04:45] Alan Seales: That's pretty cool. It's a pretty cool thing to say.

[1:04:48] Loki Mulholland: Good trouble, girl. I got in trouble.

[1:04:55] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: Did you get that? There we go. Good trouble, girl.

[1:04:57] Alan Seales: Good trouble.

[1:04:59] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: That's what it's all about.

[1:05:00] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: That's what I used to say.

[1:05:01] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[1:05:02] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: You still get yourself in trouble?

[1:05:04] Alan Seales: Good trouble.

[1:05:05] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: Well, occasionally, a little bit.

[1:05:09] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: The work's never done.

[1:05:11] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: I look for some good trouble pretty often.

[1:05:14] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[1:05:16] Joan Trumpauer Mulholland: Thank you.

[1:05:17] Alan Seales: All right. Okay. Thank you so much, Loki.

[1:05:19] Loki Mulholland: All right.

[1:05:20] Alan Seales: Have a great rest of the day.

[1:05:21] Loki Mulholland: One second.

[1:05:24] Alan Seales: I cannot believe that just happened.

[1:05:30] Heather Vickery: Right? That'll be something really cool to talk to your kids about.

[1:05:34] Alan Seales: Like, yeah.

[1:05:35] Heather Vickery: What I'm saying at the end.

[1:05:36] Heather Vickery: This picture, this woman here.

[1:05:38] Alan Seales: Yeah. It's interesting because the kids have a reference of TV and film and now YouTube stars, right? And that's their celebrity. But I guess when you get older, you start learning a lot about civil rights and social justice and things.

[1:05:54] Heather Vickery: And even now, my rising sixth grader now, last year, got into a book about the Underground Railroad. It was just something that interested him. And so he's got a little twinge, tinge for history. And again, being somebody who is a strict rule follower, he likes to do what you're supposed to do. And so I feel like he might have a future in this kind of world of just like, well, that's not right. I'm going to help make other things be better. You know what I mean?

[1:06:28] Loki Mulholland: Yeah.

[1:06:28] Heather Vickery: Yeah. Very cool. It's very cool. And Loki's just such a chill dude. You could tell when he's talking about his daughter that he's like a lot of fun and he's silly, but he's just kind of Southern and easygoing and he's doing all of this incredible, important work.

[1:06:50] Alan Seales: Yeah. No, I get it. And it's funny. It's just like, that's who he is. It's what you're supposed to do. And even when Joan came over and talked to us right at the end, oh my God, Joan talked to us. She's like, well, I just did what, what did she say, did with the spirit?

[1:07:08] Heather Vickery: Did with the spirit, called her to do.

[1:07:09] Alan Seales: Called her to do. I just felt straight up like, this is what has to be done and this is right. And that is wrong. And you know, God, I, so much respect for both of them.

[1:07:22] Heather Vickery: Absolutely. Yeah. Now I'm pretty tickled. My daughter graduated with a film and history degree and I'm going to be like, so guess who I got to chat to today? That was cool. I'm going to need you to pull a screenshot for me of all of us talking to Joan. You send that over to me.

[1:07:37] Alan Seales: I will. I will. That's cool.

[1:07:39] Heather Vickery: Yeah. I feel really lucky. I discovered Loki on TikTok. It was a video of him with his mom at the Civil Rights Museum. And then I kind of did my deep dive rabbit hole thing that I always do and was learned about his films and his work and reached out and asked him to be on the show. So I'm really honored that he said yes. And it's a kind of a good, you said this was reinvigorating, a good reminder. It's really easy to get bogged down in how shitty everything is.

[1:08:15] Alan Seales: And to say like this, it's too big. It's insurmountable.

[1:08:18] Heather Vickery: Yeah. And so this was such a good reminder to do what you can. You can't do it. Nobody can do it all, but you can do what you can and to do it in your community. And it matters and it works. And this has been done before and we can do it again. It reminds me of Tad Stromer and the resistance history. His book is out.

[1:08:46] Alan Seales: Everybody should be reading or listening to that.

[1:08:51] Heather Vickery: And this is part of that. In fact, I'm quite sure they all know each other, Tad and Loki and Joan.

[1:08:55] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[1:08:56] Heather Vickery: Probably. They hang out in the social justice discord.

[1:09:00] Alan Seales: Yeah, absolutely. That's so funny.

[1:09:04] Heather Vickery: Well, people want to write into us, let us know what they think. Where can they do that?

[1:09:08] Alan Seales: You all can send us an email at wasitchancepodcast at gmail.com.

[1:09:15] Heather Vickery: Yeah, that's it.

[1:09:18] Alan Seales: The website is wasitchance.com. If you want to pop over there, you can leave a comment there. We're on Instagram, threads, TikTok, LinkedIn. I'm on Substack, but we would love to mostly rate and review wherever you're listening to the show right now. Drop a comment. Let us know what you think. It means the world and also share it. If you could just share this episode with one or two people that you think would enjoy it, that would be amazing.

[1:09:47] Heather Vickery: Amazeballs.

[1:09:48] Alan Seales: Amazing. Yeah. Thanks for listening, folks. This is Was It Chance? The podcast about embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk for your creative life. We're so glad you're here with us. I'm Heather Vickery.

[1:09:58] Alan Seales: And I'm Alan Seals.

[1:10:00] Alan Seales: We'll talk to you all soon.

[1:10:01] Heather Vickery: Buh-bye.

[1:10:02] Alan Seales: Bye.