This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] John DeDakis: And I asked her, what's it like when guys come on to you all the time? And she said, I can tell in the first 20 seconds if I'm safe. I never have to worry about being safe in a conversation. And that's when I realized this little tidbit that being a woman means playing defense. And so it was little things like that, that helped me understand a lot more about what it's like to be a woman. And a lot of these women became my beta readers who would read early drafts and tell me what I'm getting wrong and what I'm getting right.

[0:47] Alan Seales: Did you get new lighting? You look very crisp today.

[0:56] John DeDakis: I upgraded to OS X Tahoe and a good night's sleep. Would that make your camera better?

[1:04] Alan Seales: Good night's sleep my ass. No, that is true. If it's doing like software enhancement, or maybe it's all of a sudden sending like higher resolution, it could be doing a little bit better. I don't know. I just did a fresh reboot right before this because it was getting a little clunky. I'm always the first to upgrade my OS and then I regret it every time because there's always these little bugs that like the major version dot one always will fix. But I'm like, I got to get the new graphics. I got to see what it's like. And then I'm like, I should have waited again. And here I am.

[1:27] John DeDakis: Well, you look fabulous, my friend.

[1:33] Alan Seales: Thank you. You always look fab.

[1:39] John DeDakis: Oh, you're sweet. I actually do look decent this time. I've showered and put on real clothes and makeup. I'm not in a sweatshirt. Not that I feel bad that I'm often in a sweatshirt. It's just that my daughter, it's been a week, man.

[1:46] Alan Seales: I know. Do you want to talk about it?

[1:52] John DeDakis: Yeah, we can talk about it. The same daughter who totaled my car on Monday after having her permit for six weeks is the lead in The Crucible tonight. So my day is busy because after this, I have a client and then I have to go to the tow lot to empty out my car and get everything out of it so that the insurance company can take it.

[2:13] Alan Seales: I didn't even think about that. I knock on wood, have never been in a serious accident. And yeah, I guess you would have to go and get all your crap out of the car because you're not going to take it.

[2:27] John DeDakis: Oh, the plates because you have to turn in the plates.

[2:32] Alan Seales: Well, I can transfer the plates. But you still have to have them then, I guess.

[2:36] John DeDakis: You have to have them to transfer them so that you don't have to pay for new plates.

[2:41] Alan Seales: Yeah. I feel fortunate. I'm 50, as you know, and anybody. I was flustered because I have not ever as an adult had to claim my own accident with insurance. And I was telling the police, I'm like, I don't actually know what I'm supposed to do. But then my daughter felt worse. She was like, oh, my God, I can't believe you've lived your whole life and you've never had to do this. And now you have to do it because it's me. I felt I felt bad for her.

[3:09] John DeDakis: It was pretty damn right. Don't do it again. Lesson learned.

[3:13] Alan Seales: I did not say that. In fact, she said, why aren't you mad at me? Because I wasn't yelling. I was very calm. And I said, because that doesn't solve any problem. You've already had the accident. It's done. We've done it. So now we need to figure out what to do and move on.

[3:31] John DeDakis: How are you? Is there a punishment coming? Like if it's an accident?

[3:35] Alan Seales: It's an accident. There's not a punishment. If I'm being honest, Alan, there is nothing I could do to her that would punish her more than she is doing to herself.

[3:43] John DeDakis: That's what I was asking. That's what I was thinking.

[3:47] Alan Seales: Yeah. Yeah. Because I know she feels terrible. She's tortured. And she'll never forgive herself. And this is going to cause generational trauma for the next 3000 years. I told her, I said, you have to promise me that you will drive aim. I don't ever want to drive again. I'm like, that's not an option. Not an option for me. I can't take you everywhere. But we are going to spend some time in an empty parking lot, practicing, turning and trusting the wheel.

[4:05] John DeDakis: That was the issue. The driver's ed cars don't auto-correct their steering wheel. You have to like hard correct left or right to stay in the correct lane.

[4:10] Alan Seales: Well, my car is new and you turn and the wheel straightens itself, right? You don't, you don't have to, you got to guide it, but you don't have to like yank it.

[4:15] John DeDakis: And so we.

[4:28] Alan Seales: The driver's ed cars don't have power steering. Is that what you're saying?

[4:31] John DeDakis: They have power steering, but not the kind of auto-correct that the newer cars have.

[4:35] Alan Seales: I don't, what the, I don't even know what you're talking about. What auto-correct?

[4:38] John DeDakis: Where your steering wheel just guides itself back. You just have to sort of keep your hand on the wheel to make sure.

[4:43] Alan Seales: You mean like as you drive straight, the natural physics of the car to straighten out the wheel.

[4:46] John DeDakis: Correct.

[4:49] Alan Seales: Yeah, that's natural.

[4:52] John DeDakis: I'm so confused.

[4:56] Alan Seales: But turning, I see our guest shaking his head. You hear, you know, you understand what I'm saying, secret guest who nobody knows who you are yet.

[5:03] John DeDakis: They've read the title of the episode.

[5:05] Alan Seales: But so she turned right onto a busy street and she was terrified of going into the left lane with oncoming traffic. So she hard corrected her wheel to the right and slammed into not one, not two, but three parked cars. Well, she slammed into two and the second one slammed into the third one. It was bad. And the third one was a transformer and came out and just like blasted some shit.

[5:21] John DeDakis: I get it. I wish.

[5:24] Alan Seales: Oh God.

[5:24] John DeDakis: No, but the middle one wasn't Alfa Romeo.

[5:31] Alan Seales: She'd kill me. She knows I'm talking about this in the podcast, but she doesn't listen to my show.

[5:35] John DeDakis: So whatever. I hope it was made of steel.

[5:37] Alan Seales: She's like, I'm never telling anyone ever. And I was like, girl, I'm telling everybody.

[5:42] John DeDakis: Oh my gosh. Well, I'm glad that you both are okay. That's what's important.

[5:46] Alan Seales: And we didn't hit anybody. Like nobody was trying to get into their car or crossing the street or it's all fine. It's fine. It's a hassle, but it's fine. Anyway, how's your week been?

[5:57] John DeDakis: Yay. My week, my week, let's see, we, kids were off on Tuesday, hired a babysitter who I'm jealous are our babysitter. I've been like doing, I've been the Manny and the dad and everything. I've just been the dad forever. Right. And so whenever I can, I'm like, Ooh, vacation for me. I'm going to hire a babysitter again. And because kids were off for Rosh Hashanah on Tuesday, we hired this, a babysitter that we haven't used in probably like two years, but she's like the best. She just, she hands down, sorry if any other nannies are listening. She is the best that we've ever had. Kids love her, ask about her all the time, but she loves traveling. She loves just like rock climbing and doing all these adventurous things and doesn't want to be a nanny full-time.

She just wants to like do something, but not be a nanny. And so she was leaving on Tuesday. She goes, she goes, all right, I'll see you in like six months. I'm like, what? What? Are you going somewhere? She's like, Oh yeah, I didn't tell you. I'm going to like, I'm going to go hike this famously long, like the equivalent of the Appalachian trail, whatever that is top to bottom in New Zealand. She's just going to go hike this. I looked at that, which is hilarious. Cause you know, I don't physical, but I actually was going through a little bit of an emotional crisis a couple of years ago. I was like, I'm going to do this New Zealand. But she's, she's going to do it. Like she's leaving next week to spend a month in China, hang out with a friend there.

And then she's going by herself for like four or five months, however long it takes to, to end to end. Mine was just two weeks, but I was going to do it. It's my own wild, right? I was going to do it. I'm just not sure that I'm physically fit enough for that, but.

[7:32] Alan Seales: No, I don't think I would be either at this point, but she's 35 and single and ready to mingle on her trail on, in New Zealand, man.

[7:38] John DeDakis: Secret guest who nobody knows yet. Have you ever done anything crazy like that?

[7:44] Alan Seales: I hiked the Inca trail to Machu Picchu in Peru, 25, 25 miles, 15,000 feet, five days.

[7:51] John DeDakis: Wow. 25 miles, 15,000 feet, 25 miles. That's, that's a lot, dude.

[7:59] Alan Seales: Yeah. Cool. I'm glad I asked you.

[8:07] John DeDakis: Right? Alan, who's the secret voice on the other end?

[8:11] Alan Seales: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hi everybody. Welcome to Was It Chance? The podcast about embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk for your creative life. That's Heather Vickery.

[8:16] John DeDakis: I'm Alan Seales.

[8:22] Alan Seales: We started off as two perfect strangers who met by chance and embraced opportunity. I'm blowing us through this. Okay. So you get to listen in as we chat with other successful people about the risks they've taken to put themselves on a path to creative success. Now, as I'm reading this, I'm thinking in the back of my mind, where do I put the intro music? Because it normally goes there, but we've already been talking. Anyway, I'll figure this out. I have bigger fish to fry.

[8:38] John DeDakis: You are such a good editor.

[8:43] Alan Seales: There go your ratings.

[8:48] John DeDakis: You're such a good editor.

[8:52] Alan Seales: There go my ratings. But of course, you did the whole intro. Hi everybody. I'm Heather Vickery, and that's Alan Seales. Hi. How are you?

[9:03] John DeDakis: All right. So today we are joined by John DeDakis, and he's an award-winning novelist, former CNN editor. It's cool he gets to edit all CNN, and a master of the mystery suspense thriller. He's the author of six Lark Chadwick novels, including his latest Enemies Domestic, winner of multiple awards and praised for tackling explosive themes of politics, power, and personal choice. What other Ps can we throw in there? Three Ps. Beyond the Page.

[9:25] Alan Seales: Oh, there's another P.

[9:29] John DeDakis: Beyond the Page, John is a podcaster, coach, and mentor, helping writers hone their craft.

[9:35] Alan Seales: You're annoying. People are going to stop listening because you're popping all your Ps.

[9:42] John DeDakis: I'm popping my Ps.

[9:43] Alan Seales: Okay. We're really excited to dive into his journey, his risks, and what it takes to create thrillers that stay with you long after the last page. John, I'm sorry.

[9:48] John DeDakis: John, I'm sorry. Do you want to leave now?

[9:52] Alan Seales: John, I'm so sorry. Are you ready to call it?

[9:56] John DeDakis: No, we're good. We're good.

[9:58] Alan Seales: He's going to write a next thriller. It'll just be the three of us, though.

[10:03] John DeDakis: He's going to write his next thriller about the murder of a podcaster.

[10:10] Alan Seales: Believe it or not, the people really like Alan's shenanigans.

[10:15] John DeDakis: Shenanes.

[10:22] Alan Seales: Yeah, it's like the pun club and the dad joke lovers. That's all our whole audience.

[10:26] John DeDakis: For a straight guy, he just can't do it straight. He's got to be silly.

[10:35] Alan Seales: I'm pretty gay for a straight guy.

[10:39] John DeDakis: You are pretty gay for a straight guy.

[10:42] Alan Seales: John thinks no one's going to listen. I'll bet this episode does really well.

[10:46] John DeDakis: Click, click, click.

[10:50] Alan Seales: Hey, John. Thanks for joining the podcast.

[10:52] John DeDakis: Thanks very much, I think.

[10:55] Alan Seales: Do we want to ask John to move the microphone closer to his mouth?

[10:59] John DeDakis: Yeah. How's that?

[11:01] Alan Seales: Is this better?

[11:03] John DeDakis: Yeah.

[11:05] Alan Seales: Oh, hey. You do have your own podcast, don't you?

[11:09] John DeDakis: That's right.

[11:11] Alan Seales: Radio is my first love.

[11:13] John DeDakis: Is it really? Tell us about that.

[11:15] John DeDakis: Back in, let's see, I was a student at the University of Wisconsin in Madison in 1968, and this was when all the anti-Vietnam War activity was going on. They had a draft, so a lot of students were at risk of being drafted and sent to Vietnam. They had a lottery, and if you had a number below 150, you were going to get drafted. Mine was 14.

[11:39] Alan Seales: And the thing was that I would go to class, and I was bombarded from both the left and the right to take a position for or against the war, and I didn't really have a position. My parents were Nixon Republicans, but I was hearing the left-wing line on campus, and so when I was alone, I was confused. So I volunteered at a campus radio station, and for the next probably, I don't know, 10 years or so, I was in radio in one way or the other.

[11:51] Alan Seales: And did you go to war?

[11:53] John DeDakis: Actually, I had orders to Vietnam. They were changed at the last minute to Germany, and I spent two and a half years at the headquarters of the American Forces Network in Frankfurt doing interviews for a special events radio unit, and the first interview I was assigned to do was with this guy named Alfred Hitchcock.

[12:11] Alan Seales: Shut up.

[12:13] John DeDakis: Maybe you've heard of him.

[12:15] Alan Seales: Wow.

[12:15] John DeDakis: Was it Chance? That's amazing.

[12:18] John DeDakis: Well, it was a mentoring moment. My boss used to work at CBS. He could have done the interview in his sleep, but he had a mentor's heart, and he trusted this 20-something kid not to screw it up.

[12:30] Alan Seales: Did you screw it up?

[12:31] John DeDakis: No, I didn't, although there were two mics, two lavalier mics, one on Hitchcock, one on me. Mine crapped out, and I didn't find out about that until I got back to the station, and I had to retract most of my questions.

[12:46] Alan Seales: Oh, at least it was yours.

[12:47] John DeDakis: At least it was mine. It could have been a disaster.

[12:51] Alan Seales: What was Alfred Hitchcock like in person?

[12:53] John DeDakis: He was pretty much what you see on the screen.

[12:56] Alan Seales: Really?

[12:56] John DeDakis: I mean, yeah, he was droll. He was a slow talker, wore a dark suit, black tie, white shirt, very affable, and we talked for about 40 minutes.

[13:11] Alan Seales: That's so cool.

[13:12] John DeDakis: It was very cool.

[13:13] Alan Seales: That is very cool.

[13:15] John DeDakis: Wow.

[13:15] Alan Seales: Wait, so this is the late 70s then?

[13:18] John DeDakis: This was, no, this would have been about 73. He was promoting Frenzy, which is, I think, his penultimate movie.

[13:25] Alan Seales: Wow.

[13:26] John DeDakis: So you started doing radio in college as a way to just sort of distract yourself from the draft?

[13:36] John DeDakis: I was assistant news director for this student radio station and disc jockey as well. But I was really interested in trying to find out more about the Vietnam War, and journalism always was interesting to me. And so I transferred from one school to the other. This is why I had to go into the service because when I transferred, Playboy magazine had voted UW-Madison the number one party school in the country, and I saw it as my mission to be the number one party. And in so doing, my grade point average was 1.95. So I was really close to getting kicked out of school. So when I transferred, I lost 20 credits and my student deferment. So I was a sitting duck for the draft. But in that interim before I went into the service, I was working at two radio stations in my hometown of La Crosse, Wisconsin.

I was doing news and spinning records at the AM Rocker in town, and also the assistant news director for the NPR affiliate that went on the air in La Crosse, WLSU FM 88.9. Almost 89 because WLS in Chicago was 89.

[15:02] John DeDakis: Give me your best welcome back. Hey, welcome back. We're here talking to Heather and Alan. They call that in broadcasting, they call that puking. That's what it sounds like on the listener end also. I hate it. Of course, now it's much mellower.

[15:20] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[15:21] John DeDakis: Welcome back to NPR. Okay. So I actually want to ask, it feels to me like the obvious question, but I don't know if everybody else thinks that. What did you end up deciding that you felt about the Vietnam War?

[15:34] John DeDakis: Well, I became anti-war and anti-military while I was in the service. I'm not as anti-military as I used to be. I'm a little older, a little more mature. But yeah, I think that was a war. That was a big mistake. And I think one of the reasons it was a mistake is that the presidents in both parties lied to the people consistently about our chances. And that's really what ended up dooming our involvement because of the Pentagon Papers. Daniel Ellsberg was assigned to put together a history of US involvement in Vietnam for the government and discovered all of the lies that were being told. And instead of helping the government publish it, he leaked it to the New York Times. And when the New York Times got taken to court by Richard Nixon, he leaked it to the Washington Post and ended up, you know, it was a major Supreme Court decision that the principle was prior restraint. You know, the government does not have the right to restrain publication of something. And so it was a landmark decision. I don't think the current administration cares.

[17:00] Alan Seales: Fair enough.

[17:00] John DeDakis: The current administration is going to do what they want to do. We won't name names. We're going to take a quick break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[17:08] John DeDakis: And now we're back. You just sort of were doing the DJ stuff and spinning discs and throat laying vinyl and all the things.

[17:18] John DeDakis: And it was vinyl. Puking on microphones. And then how did you continue on to the path or what path were you on that led you on to like making it in CNN and journalism and all this?

[17:33] John DeDakis: Yeah, that's a good question, because the path was a long and tortured and twisty one. I mean, my dad was a lawyer. So the plan initially was that I was going to go into practice with my dad and then I was going to use the law as a stepping stone to get into politics. And since about 13, between the ages of like 13 and about 20, the plan was, and I'm really serious about this, becoming president of the United States.

[18:00] Heather Vickery: Wow. I would have voted for you over what we've got now, big time, just so you know.

[18:04] John DeDakis: I wish you were president.

[18:05] Heather Vickery: Well, the bar is very low, that's for sure.

[18:07] John DeDakis: I don't even know you that well and I wish you were the president.

[18:12] Heather Vickery: You can string a whole sentence together.

[18:14] John DeDakis: So acetaminophen, I can say it. It just rolls off the tongue. So the plan changed drastically when I was in the service. And frankly, when I interviewed Hitchcock, I mean, that was one of those pivotal moments where I discovered what I was good at and what I loved. So when I got out of the army, I went back to the University of Wisconsin and instead of almost flunking out, I got a B.A. in broadcast journalism, won a 3.5 average. I'm not brilliant, but thank you. And so journalism is what I did for the next 45 years.

[19:00] Heather Vickery: It sounds like riveting and exciting. So we didn't, I pulled it out of your bio because I was trying to shorten it because you have a really impressive bio.

[19:04] John DeDakis: Thank you.

[19:05] Heather Vickery: You worked directly with Wolf Blitzer on CNN, but what other things did you do there? And what was that process like at CNN?

[19:14] John DeDakis: Well, I mean, the process, I mean, you don't just get to CNN, you have to pay your dues.

[19:21] Heather Vickery: One doesn't just get to CNN.

[19:26] John DeDakis: So, I mean, I was a radio reporter for a long time. Then I switched to TV in the mid-70s. Let's see, covered the White House when Reagan was president. Finally got to CNN in '88 as a writer. And within a year, they made me an editor. And that was pretty much what I did for the 25 years I was there. I retired in 2013. And the last seven years was with Wolf on the Situation Room in D.C.

[19:53] Heather Vickery: So were you writing for him or with him? How did that whole process work? Because I know the world of entertainment and late night shows and SNL, and it's always a collaboration between what you see on TV, who you see on TV and behind the scenes and all that.

[20:05] John DeDakis: Oh, and when you say behind the scenes, behind the scenes is vast.

[20:09] Heather Vickery: Yes.

[20:09] John DeDakis: And even in local television, it was amazing to me how many hoops you had to jump through to get something on the air. And that was the case, whether it was local TV. In radio, not so much. It's you in the tape recorder or you in the microphone, and that's pretty much it. But in broadcasting, there are a lot of people behind the scenes. And as a writer, I was a writer in Atlanta, and at first it was a lot of newscasts. It was like an assembly line and you were writing for a lot of different shows. Then when the Gulf War came along, after the Gulf War ended, we went to show teams. And so each show had its own personality, its own set of anchors, and its own writers and editors. And so I was involved in those.

So I was working with anchors like Darren Kagan and Bill Hemmer and Leon Harris and Donna Kelly and Carol Costello. And so I transferred. My wife got a job in DC, so I was able to transfer. And so I was working for Daybreak. It was an early morning newscast that Carol Costello anchored. She was in New York. I was in DC, and the show was produced and edited and written in Atlanta. So it was a mess, but we were able to do it, and then they canceled the show. And so amazingly, I landed on my feet on the Situation Room in DC. So it was just serendipitous, I guess you could say.

[21:39] Heather Vickery: Was it, Chan?

[21:44] John DeDakis: Author's message, blink, blink. This is my favorite part, is when people share those kind of serendipitous, crazy, like, I can't believe how I ended up here. It doesn't make any sense. That's what this whole show is about, these wild risks and opportunities or the things that don't work out.

[22:03] John DeDakis: It's such a great idea for a podcast, because really, that's the way life is. Life doesn't turn out the way you expect. In journalism, it's a story. In real life, it's a crisis. And in fiction, it's a plot twist.

[22:16] Heather Vickery: I love that. I love that.

[22:19] John DeDakis: This is the worst plot twist we're ever living through in our current administration.

[22:22] Heather Vickery: Oh my gosh. I don't want to be on this timeline.

[22:25] John DeDakis: Well, there are such things as the midterms. We have the power to change the direction of this.

[22:32] Heather Vickery: I want to believe that, John. I do believe that if the integrity of the elections remain.

[22:39] John DeDakis: Very good point, because you can make a case, and I will at least throw it down as a suggestion, that I would argue that it's entirely possible that Trump is preparing to declare martial law before the midterms so that he can justify taking control of the ballot box.

[22:59] John DeDakis: So interestingly enough, last spring, I went to see Hillary Clinton speak about her new book, Something Lost, Something Gained. It was a really good book, bone chilling. She foretold 100 percent, first of all, everything that's happening and exactly how it's going down and just that, that within a year, we would be under martial law and he would have elections. So, you know, I want to believe that we're going to get through this midterms and we're going to, but it's really scary shit.

[23:30] John DeDakis: Yeah. I mean, look, for 45 years as a journalist, my kids didn't know how I voted. I was registered independent. It was forbidden as part of CNN's policy to contribute to political campaigns. You couldn't put up a bumper sticker or a yard sign. You know, they really do play it straight. And I'm not a partisan, but I am so alarmed and have been ever since Trump made it on the scene as a serious presidential candidate. I mean, you know, in fact, that's pretty much where I'm going in my most recent novel, Enemies Domestic. I mean, you know, we are in deep doo-doo and we need to wake up and take our country back in terms of our political participation because most people don't vote. There's so much apathy. People are turned off by politics and the animosity and incivility that it takes place in the marketplace of ideas. So we're, you know, you're right. We're not out of the woods at all.

[24:39] Heather Vickery: Well, so, Ben, you mentioned Enemies Domestic, your latest book, good plug. Which is in a whole series, like six book series, right?

[24:49] John DeDakis: Yeah, yeah. And what made you want to leave the journalism world and get into just the straight up fiction writing world?

[24:58] John DeDakis: Well, the interest resembles reality. Yeah, the transition was gradual and it took place while I was at CNN, because when I became an editor, that was tedious. It was fault finding, but it paid well. And so I needed a creative outlet. And so I basically taught myself how to make it up. And that takes, that's a major mental shift because a lot of people will say, well, you were making it up all the time, but we really weren't. That's a firing offense, just so you know.

[25:33] Heather Vickery: As a journalist at CNN.

[25:34] John DeDakis: As a journalist, it's a firing offense. Used to be.

[25:36] Heather Vickery: That used to be at some places. And so I started to teach myself how to write fiction. And so my first novel, it took 10 years to get the agent that I've got. It went through 14 major revisions and she's the 39th agent that I queried.

[25:51] Heather Vickery: Holy cow.

[25:52] John DeDakis: Yeah. So the book, the first book came out in 2005, 20 years ago.

[25:56] Heather Vickery: Oh, wow.

[25:57] John DeDakis: And so over time, I've written six novels in this series. You don't have to read the books in order, but I guess the short answer is I started writing fiction because I needed the creative outlet. And then it wasn't until my third novel was coming out that I left CNN. It wasn't fun anymore there. And it's not because of CNN so much as Sandy Hook happened. And my son had died a year before that, and I was being paid to watch parents cry over their dead kids. So yeah, journalism just wasn't fun then.

[26:35] Heather Vickery: I'm so sorry about your loss.

[26:37] John DeDakis: Thank you.

[26:37] Heather Vickery: Wow.

[26:38] John DeDakis: The, it's funny, you'd said, yeah, 2005. And I was thinking, yeah, so pretty recent, just a couple of years ago. And I forgot what year we're in.

[26:47] John DeDakis: 20 years.

[26:48] Heather Vickery: 20 damn years ago.

[26:49] John DeDakis: We're all getting old here, man.

[26:51] Heather Vickery: Oh yes we are. I don't like it.

[26:54] John DeDakis: Some of us are older than others though.

[26:56] Heather Vickery: Oh my goodness. So that's fascinating. So writing as a creative outlet, which I love. And as we hear from people all the time, getting an agent ain't easy.

[27:07] John DeDakis: Right. This is true.

[27:09] John DeDakis: So you went the traditional publishing route. You went the agent traditional publishing route.

[27:14] John DeDakis: And so once you get that first one, 20 years ago, do they then commission you to write the rest of these books or do you have to re-pitch them? It was a one book deal and I didn't really even intend to write a series. I just wanted to get published. I didn't even know what my genre was and I discovered my genre when I took the manuscript to a book club that met in our neighborhood in Atlanta and 25 women let me sit in on their critique and I discovered that I had three subplots that I didn't need. And when I took them out, the novel went from 150,000 word mishmash, that was the genre, and I rewrote it to make it a 75,000 word mystery suspense novel. But this time I already had ideas for other books and so they have just continued as we've gone. But it's been a book at a time.

[28:08] Alan Seales: Where do you get your ideas from? Are you taking a real life scenario and then just turning up the dial of hyper realism?

[28:38] John DeDakis: They have to do with whatever I'm dealing with in my personal life and that becomes a subplot that I'm just wrestling with as we go forward. And the news, definitely the news, enemies domestic, you know, they're ripped from reality. People will recognize things that have been said in the public sphere.

[28:58] Alan Seales: Did someone use the word bigly a lot?

[29:00] John DeDakis: I don't think anybody did.

[29:02] Alan Seales: You need a character that's just, I'm Mr. Bigly.

[29:07] John DeDakis: You should write a novel there.

[29:09] Alan Seales: Oh boy, I don't want to read Alan's ADHD novel.

[29:13] John DeDakis: Don't give him any ideas, right?

[29:16] Alan Seales: Well, what I find fascinating, so your female protagonist, Lark Chadwick, what has a guy like you picking a female protagonist and why does that matter? And was that a stretch for you? Was it interesting? So I always find it fascinating reading women from a men's perspective or reading men from a women's perspective.

[29:40] John DeDakis: I really didn't set out in a calculated way to write as a woman in a way that would be, I don't know, marketable or whatever. It's just that when I started writing fiction, someone suggested that I should write in a way that stretches who I am. I've never been a woman, at least not in this life. So I gave it a try. And one of the things I discovered is that emotions are not specific.

[30:03] Alan Seales: Wait, what?

[30:34] John DeDakis: And I would listen and I would ask them questions about what's it like to be a woman. And there was one woman I was talking with. She was gorgeous, is still. And I asked her, what's it like when guys come on to you all the time? And she said, I can tell in the first 20 seconds if I'm safe. I never have to worry about being safe in a conversation. And that's when I realized this little tidbit that being a woman means playing defense. And so it was little things like that that helped me understand a lot more about what it's like to be a woman. And a lot of these women became my beta readers who would read early drafts and tell me what I'm getting wrong and what I'm getting right.

[31:19] Alan Seales: I really love that. I love that you had this group of women to learn from and as your beta readers and giving you plot suggestions. And that matters so, so, so much. As a reader, I would be able to tell, right? You can tell if somebody's done their homework there or not.

[31:38] John DeDakis: Yeah. There was a reviewer that reviewed Troubled Water, my third novel. And she wrote, and I didn't know her at the time. She said, when I found out it was a guy writing as a woman, I couldn't wait to take this book apart. And she said, after page five, I forgot it was a guy. So that really meant a lot. And I mean, I know you can't please everybody, but, you know, my agent's a woman and, you know, I'm getting a lot of the kind of feedback that helps. And, you know, here's the thing. I think that it's important for guys to listen to women. Women are fascinating and they're willing to tell you what they think and what they know from being alive. And when you're listening, you're learning.

[32:26] Heather Vickery: I love what you said about listening more. And I will tell you, I recently, and I am not a DNF-er, for those of you who are not, do not finish. I almost always push myself through on a book, which people feel like, why would you do that if you don't like it? Why would you keep reading? But I almost always get something out of it if I keep with whatever I'm reading. But I just DNF'd a book that was not just, and maybe this is why, not just a female protagonist written by a man, but his pen name was a woman's name. And it felt devious. And he didn't do a very good job. I was like, this woman reads like a man. Like, she's not, this is not.

[33:10] John DeDakis: How could you tell? What made you think that?

[33:12] Heather Vickery: She was emotionless.

[33:13] John DeDakis: The woman kept describing her penis.

[33:16] Heather Vickery: Sorry.

[33:17] John DeDakis: No, that actually wasn't right.

[33:18] Heather Vickery: No, that wasn't it.

[33:19] John DeDakis: No. She was, she was emotionless. Yeah.

[33:23] Heather Vickery: Very cold.

[33:24] John DeDakis: Yeah, just distant. It just didn't feel, it just didn't feel, I couldn't connect to her. And that doesn't mean that I can connect to every woman everywhere that we're the same, but it just didn't feel right. And I kept trying because the book had been really, you know, well rated. And I was like, you know what, I'm not.

[33:41] John DeDakis: That's interesting.

[33:43] Heather Vickery: Yeah, it is.

[33:44] John DeDakis: And then my partner was like, well, would you not read a book written by a woman with a man's pen name? And of course I would, and I had. But the difference is that women have had to do that forever.

[33:56] Heather Vickery: Right.

[33:57] John DeDakis: Since Parchment was invented.

[33:59] Heather Vickery: Yep.

[34:00] John DeDakis: In order to be taken seriously. And men don't. And you don't need to do that.

[34:04] Heather Vickery: Right.

[34:05] John DeDakis: It just felt gross.

[34:07] Heather Vickery: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's, you know, you're right. I mean, and I've been, I've been criticized in that, you know, my protagonist, Lark Chadwick, sometimes her emotions are, you know, almost, you know, too on the surface. It's like she cries too quickly. And there needs to be a bit of more of a buildup or something. So I'm, I'm still learning.

[34:27] Alan Seales: Interesting.

[34:28] John DeDakis: Yeah.

[34:29] Alan Seales: I cry too quickly. It's okay. We let it pass.

[34:31] John DeDakis: I cry over Folgers commercials.

[34:34] Alan Seales: It's good. Good for you, man.

[34:35] John DeDakis: I was like, I literally came home from the military and woke their family up with coffee. And then as I get older, I'm like, damn it, they woke their family up. Those parents need to sleep.

[34:45] Heather Vickery: Stop.

[34:46] John DeDakis: Now I'm crying because I, because I relate they're not getting enough sleep.

[34:49] Heather Vickery: Crying is healthy, by the way.

[34:51] John DeDakis: Crying is healthy. I'm just, yes, I'm, we're both very, Alan and I are both very emotional people.

[34:56] Alan Seales: No, we're not. You take it back.

[35:00] John DeDakis: We're going to take a quick break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[35:04] Heather Vickery: And now we're back. So, John, tell us, you, you also host a podcast. Tell us about our podcast. And, and you teach. You help other writers.

[35:15] John DeDakis: I do. I mean, the podcast is, is, it's, it's, it's on every whenever.

[35:21] Alan Seales: Whenever you feel like it.

[35:23] John DeDakis: Whenever I feel like it, I started doing it when, when COVID hit and I was, you know, down here in my little hovel grotto and realizing, oh, there's zoom and I know how to interview people. And so I started doing it. But, you know, it takes a certain amount of bandwidth, mental bandwidth to do it. I do it live because I don't have to do any post-production. It is what it is. But I've, I've not been doing it as much lately because I've been expanding my business actually to I, I've, I've been a writing instructor, manuscript editor, writing coach, and I still do all of those things. But I'm now trying to take it beyond the writing community. And I'm speaking to corporations that have wellness programs, associations, veterans groups on how to use writing as a way to heal from grief.

[36:16] John DeDakis: And it doesn't mean grief, just, you know, losing a loved one. It can be losing a pet, a job, a friendship, your innocence, your health, all of those things. Everyone has experienced grief and loss. And I've discovered that writing can be not only a catharsis, but it can be therapeutic.

[36:33] Heather Vickery: Do you journal?

[36:34] John DeDakis: I do every day.

[36:35] Heather Vickery: Do you?

[36:36] John DeDakis: Yeah. Yeah. Every morning. But, you know, journaling is not a requirement. I mean, I'm a writer and I feel that I do it in the morning looking back at the day before just as a life observed. How am I doing? You know, what could I do better? Why did I do that? And, and who knows, maybe the Smithsonian will be interested in something someday.

[36:56] Heather Vickery: I love that. I mean, I'm a transformation coach and I, I work with people to do specifically that. Like, let's reflect. Let's have this awareness because we can't create change if we don't know what we want to change. But I, and I'm a writer also, although maybe you can help me, John. At Fiction and I, we flirt with each other, but I read a lot. Like, this is how I am surviving our current regime. I work, I take care of my kids, I travel when I can, and I read. So I just finished my 115th book of the year. It's my full disassociation.

[37:21] John DeDakis: Wow.

[37:32] Heather Vickery: So I'm like, I can't write like that. Like, I can't, I can't do that. But what I do, I don't journal. I, I try. I'll journal for a couple of days and then I walk away. Like, me and journaling, we're not pals.

[37:44] John DeDakis: Well, and that's, that's fine. You know, some people can do it. And I, and I frankly, I mean, that's my writing. I don't, I'm not writing a book all the time. You know, it takes me a couple of years to write a book because a lot of my writing is ruminating, you know, just thinking about it. And that's part of the process. But yeah, I mean, look, but, but you have thought about writing fiction?

[38:09] Heather Vickery: I have thought about it. I have a random idea. Have we ever talked about my random idea on the show, Alan? I don't remember.

[38:14] Alan Seales: Which one?

[38:15] Heather Vickery: I tried. Well, I did start it. I didn't try to start. I did start during NaNoWriMo last year.

[38:21] John DeDakis: That's National Novel Writing Month in November.

[38:24] Heather Vickery: It is. And I wrote my first book. Well, I've, yeah.

[38:27] John DeDakis: Yeah.

[38:28] Heather Vickery: I have been playing with it.

[38:29] John DeDakis: Oh, is that Fearless? Is that the Fearless one back there?

[38:32] Heather Vickery: It's called Fuck Fearless, Making the Brave Believe.

[38:33] John DeDakis: Oh, is that one?

[38:34] Heather Vickery: Yeah. It's nonfiction, but I did do it during NaNoWriMo.

[38:36] John DeDakis: Good for you.

[38:37] Heather Vickery: And I wrote for like two or three days, but November is a stupid month for them to do this.

[38:43] John DeDakis: And it was just too, too much. I've participated several times, but I couldn't finish it. But I do have a fiction idea. It morphed a little. Surprise me. I think that's interesting, right? When you're writing and you think you know where the story is going and what your characters are doing, and then they're like, they tell you something different.

[39:04] John DeDakis: Yep. Oh, absolutely. That's part of the process. And it's fun. It's serendipitous. It's, was it chance?

[39:11] Heather Vickery: There you go.

[39:13] John DeDakis: I love it.

[39:18] Heather Vickery: Looking back over your career though, do you have like a pinch me moment or one of those things that stood out? Like you get used to working with Wolf Blitzer, that's just another day on the job. But like, you know, interviewing Alfred Hitchcock, was that like, holy shit moment? Or like what, looking back, what was one of those things where you're like, I can't believe this is what I got to do?

[39:40] John DeDakis: Well, I mean, it was when Ronald Reagan called on me in one of those East Room press conferences. That was one of those moments. And I had an inkling that it was going to happen. Somebody in the press office tipped me off that, you know, he might be coming to you. And they put me in a, you know, a position where I was in his line of sight. And, you know, he, his answer, it was right before we bombed Libya, when Muammar Gaddafi was president. And this would have been 85, something like that. And, and so I had a question that was leading up to that. And Reagan was a master at not making news if he didn't want to. And for the longest time, I was listening to his response, thinking, you know, how can I get a story out of this?

And I couldn't, because there was no story there. He purposely was not ratcheting up the, you know, the confrontation. He was downplaying it. And so he, you know, when I take apart his answer, there's no news there, just nothing. But it was still cool. It was still a moment.

[40:50] John DeDakis: What do you do? What do you write about?

[41:20] Alan Seales: He said, you know, I would have fallen on the floor, but I was already on the floor watching.

[41:33] John DeDakis: That's awesome. When you started out writing though, you know, like two, three years ago, back in 2005, did you know that you were going to make all of these different books? Or did, like you were saying, the characters speak to you, they take you in different directions. Do you still, do you know what your next one's going to be? Do you have an idea for 10 more from now?

[41:49] John DeDakis: I don't have an idea for 10 more. I have an idea for the next one. And my wife and I are sort of talking about it together. Mostly I plan, I try to plot them out. But in practice, I've discovered that I don't plot nearly as meticulously as I thought. And so by necessity, I'm making it up as I go. And I discovered that if I can get my characters talking to each other, that's like dipping a straw into my subconscious. And those questions that they're asking each other are like, it's like taking a sip, and it comes through your fingers and onto the page. It's spooky that way. And so that was the way I'd been doing it up until book six, Enemies Domestic. And then that book, my wife and I came up with the idea together.

Basically, the premise is, what's it like? What's it going to be like for my pregnant protagonist to be living in a post Roe v. Wade era when abortion is a crime and a dictator becomes president? It could never happen. But so we, this was, you know, way before Trump was elected the second time. Yeah, I was like, wait a second. Yeah. And so we came up with the idea. I would come down here and write. And, you know, you have this blank screen, which is despair. Then you write. And that's a sense of victory. You know, everything's wonderful. Take it up to Cindy. She would look at it. And then we're back at despair again. And that process actually worked out. She was very helpful in getting Lark out of all kinds of corners that she needed to get herself out of.

And so that's what we're doing for book seven. We have a general idea of where it's going to go, but, you know, we're not working at it as diligently yet because I've got other stuff and, you know, this podcast.

[43:49] Alan Seales: Who is your target audience with the book writing and coaching?

[43:55] John DeDakis: But I think my target, that's a really tough answer to give because it's really directed toward anybody who's interested in the life of a 20 something young journalist who becomes a White House press secretary, which is what she is in Enemies Domestic. And so I'm really not writing for the market. I'm writing because of what I think is an interesting story told through the life of who I think is an interesting person. And so in my experience, I think mostly women read my books. Women probably in their, I don't know, 30s to 90s.

[44:33] Alan Seales: So women.

[44:34] John DeDakis: Yeah. 30s to 90s.

[44:36] Alan Seales: 30s to 200s.

[44:38] John DeDakis: Small range.

[44:38] Alan Seales: Yeah. And, you know, there are guys who like it, but most guys don't read, you know, so that's part of the problem.

[44:46] John DeDakis: Don't or can't.

[44:47] Alan Seales: Hey, I got a book right here.

[44:50] John DeDakis: Right. That was the phone book for the record. That was the phone book.

[44:54] Alan Seales: That was, yes.

[44:55] John DeDakis: That was the Broadway book, wasn't it?

[44:57] Alan Seales: The Yellow Pages.

[45:02] John DeDakis: Can I have a moment? I'm going to go on a total tangent. This is where my brain went. I was having a conversation this morning with my best friends about like, I remember 10 disc changers in your trunk of your car. And it made you extra careful of speed bumps because they would, you go over a speed bump too fast and your disc would shit. Your disc would skip.

[45:22] John DeDakis: Your disc would shit.

[45:23] Alan Seales: Same idea.

[45:25] John DeDakis: I had like a three disc changer in the front of my car.

[45:28] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah. Oh, it took forever, right? Because it had like behind the scenes, it was like going through.

[45:34] John DeDakis: Kids, you'll never know what it was like. Get off my lawn.

[45:39] Alan Seales: No, I do appreciate all of this. Can you write like your next novel to have a story where democracy is restored and everybody has individual rights and gun control everywhere? Because it seems like what you wrote before is now true. So let's discontinue that trend.

[45:59] John DeDakis: Well, as much as I'd like to do that, I'm not sure that would make for an interesting story.

[46:03] Alan Seales: Well, now that's going to be the dystopian future.

[46:06] John DeDakis: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I don't know. We'll see. It's too soon to tell.

[46:10] Alan Seales: Too soon. All right. So then ultimately you've written a lot. You've had a long career. You've done some amazing things. What is your relationship ultimately with failure?

[46:19] John DeDakis: Oh, I'm good at failure. I've got that. In fact, I've got a story to tell you about failure. I'm a drummer, right? Ringo Starr taught me how to play drums.

[46:30] Alan Seales: Shut up.

[46:30] John DeDakis: He doesn't know it, but.

[46:32] Alan Seales: Oh, okay. All right.

[46:34] John DeDakis: He sort of sat down.

[46:38] Alan Seales: All right, John, now you got to use your left to beat the bump.

[46:43] John DeDakis: He actually was sitting down when he taught me because he was with the Beatles and he was sitting behind his kit. And so I was listening and trying to figure out what the hell he was doing. So he taught me by example. And so I was a rock and roll drummer for a long time, not ever in a band per se, because I was too shy for that. So my son, James, is a drummer and he was the drummer in the jazz band when he went to college. And he was in a, he was in the band called Arizona. It was an independent indie band and they toured the country a couple of times. And he was in DC and we went to this, this jazz club and they had an open mic jam session. And I said to him, James, are you going to go up there and play?

And he goes, no. And I should have listened. I should have listened because I go swaggering up there and I take the sticks from the house drummer and they call something that's four, four, swing. I can do that. So, you know, everything went great. Then a couple of horn players got up and played. And I found out later they had just played a gig at the Kennedy center. So I'm in over my head, but I don't know it. So they call something and they count it down and they're flying and I'm still taxiing. Right. I had no idea what the song was. You know, you're in trouble when during the song, the house drummer goes, I'll take over. So here I am changing sticks with him. And that was a major, major fail.

And so what I, one of the classes I teach is facing your fears. And one of the major fears, whether it's writing or living is fear of failure. And once you failed and found out that it wasn't quite as devastating as it could have been, or as you imagined that it would be, you know, that's the, that's the step toward courage. And so I basically joined a jazz workshop, learned how to play jazz drums, and you learn by failure and it's the same with standup comedy or improv comedy. You know, it's all improv. It's all in the moment and failure is part of it, but that's how you gain confidence by facing, facing failure and facing your fears. That's how you gain confidence by facing failure.

[49:01] Alan Seales: That's perfect. Thank you. That's awesome. John, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks for putting up with us. It wasn't easy, man. But you are just, it's, you're a cool guy and what great, amazing stories. I'm so glad you, you came on and shared them with us. Will you tell folks how to follow you, connect with you, join your classes, get your books, listen to your podcast, all that good stuff?

[49:27] John DeDakis: Thank you. Well, Ellen and Heather, this has been a lot of fun and I appreciate the opportunity. Um, let's see, I'm John Dodakis. So the best way to get a hold of me is through my website, which is cleverly johndodakis.com. We have the link in the show notes, y'all. And I will spell it for those of you listening. Uh, it's J O H N D as in dog, E D as in dog, A K I S as in Sam, John Dodakis.com.

[50:02] Alan Seales: Good stuff. Yeah, you betcha. Really fun. Yeah.

[50:05] John DeDakis: Thank you so much, John. Thank you.

[50:09] John DeDakis: Um, that was so unexpected. I'm just going to casually drop that I hung out with Alfred Hitchcock and Ronald Reagan. It was really, really unexpected.

[50:15] Alan Seales: What a cool guy. Yeah. Very cool. And so sassy. He, he like dishes it out faster than you could. You enjoy so much when people give me shit. He gave me shit too, but nobody ever gives you shit. So that was good.

[50:34] Alan Seales: People give me shit all the time we talk about.

[50:38] John DeDakis: People give me shit. I love it. Okay. Listen, you hear this future guests give me shit.

[50:42] Alan Seales: No, it was really fun. Super cool guy. I, I love the behind the scenes of, of like you see, you know, a late night show, you see a, a comedian, a movie or whatever, like the finished product. But I mean, the more you dig into any of this, it takes sometimes if not days or weeks or months, years and decades to make things happen. And you hear stories of, you know, movies that were like, this has been my passion project for 20 years. And I finally made it happen. And then in Broadway all the time, it's, uh, uh, yeah, it took 10 years to get this from concept to, to Broadway. And, you know, that's just the nature of the business. And this guy has been doing behind the scenes, like bringing the hard hitting journalism to us, you know, for his whole entire career. And, and he's just one of those unsung heroes. I appreciate it so much.

[51:30] John DeDakis: How serendipitous, how incredible that he got into radio broadcasting as a college student, as a way to learn more about the Vietnam war. So he could make an informed decision on it. And then he ended up in the service and then he ended up doing broadcasting and interviewing and journalism in the service, right? Like it's just, it's so fascinating. And he, it was, he was a fun guy. I want to have him back for his next novel where he predicts the future.

[52:05] Alan Seales: That's positive. It does feel like his book, I went to ask him about this, but it just didn't, the conversation just, just didn't go this direction, but books take a long time. You write them, you edit them, and then you have to promote them like all of this. So his current book very much resembles what is happening right now. And he wrote it as, and he wrote it early.

[52:31] John DeDakis: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Anyway. Well, here's to hoping things get better.

[52:41] Alan Seales: Fingers and toes, baby. And votes. Hopefully CNN doesn't get, you know, shut down and canceled because who knows?

[52:47] John DeDakis: Where can people contact us and let us know that we talked too much about politics?

[52:52] Alan Seales: Listen, if you tell us we talked too much about politics, you're not a good listener for our show. So go ahead. But if you want to tell us how much you love us and what your favorite takeaways are, what your favorite episodes have been, other people you want us to interview, we're so easy to find. We are wasitchancepodcastatgmail.com. You can find the website, wasitchance.com. I think there's a contact us link there as well. The show is on Instagram. If Alan is checking the private messages, I'm not. Eyebrow raise. We're on TikTok. And Blue Sky. You're on Substack. We are on Blue Sky. All the places. We are on LinkedIn. We're on LinkedIn. You still with us here? I'm tired. It's been a long week.

I have to go clean out my car after this. So that'll be fun. But listen, we would love to hear from you guys. We're in all the places. Connect. If you like the show, do us a favor. Rate and review it. Share it with a pal. It means a lot. We put a lot of heart. If you hate it, share it with an enemy. We put a lot of heart and soul into it, and we appreciate it when you tell us that you appreciate it.

[54:02] Alan Seales: You've been listening to Was It Chance? The podcast about embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk for your creative life. I'm Heather Vickery.

[54:12] Alan Seales: I'm Alan Seals. He's Alan Seals. Talk to y'all soon.