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[0:00] Ebony Vines: Welcome to Theatre Geeks Anonymous, the podcast about Broadway flops, scandals, and new work.

[0:11] Pamela Shandrow: Now, we'll take a break from our usual episodes to bring you this Intermissionsode.

[0:16] Ebony Vines: My little tummy's full of butterflies. Hey, Ebony, do you know what this is?

[0:21] Pamela Shandrow: What?

[0:22] Ebony Vines: It is an intermissionsode. Intermissionsode. Intermissionsode. Intermissionsode. Intermissionsode. Intermissionsode. Intermissionsode.

[0:35] Pamela Shandrow: Yes!

[0:36] Ebony Vines: I know! I remembered it. I remembered everything. It's been a while, but I got it.

[0:43] Pamela Shandrow: And the Zoom didn't cut in and out when you were trying to sing it like it has been doing recently.

[0:50] Ebony Vines: It'll be 10 years next year that we've been doing this podcast.

[0:54] Pamela Shandrow: That is absolutely insane.

[0:56] Ebony Vines: Like, 2027 will be 10 years.

[0:59] Pamela Shandrow: I know! I can't. I can't wrap my head around the fact that, yeah.

[1:05] Ebony Vines: It's crazy.

[1:06] Pamela Shandrow: We're old. We're old.

[1:10] Ebony Vines: Who's there? Who's that? Who's that, Brian?

[1:15] Pamela Shandrow: A voice calling out in the wilderness.

[1:19] Ebony Vines: We have a guest, friends.

[1:21] Pamela Shandrow: We're doing, as you will see on your feed, a crossover episode with the wonderful, brilliant, and talented Burton Miller.

[1:29] Burton Miller: Hi, everybody!

[1:31] Ebony Vines: And we'll have him talk about what his podcast is about a little bit.

[1:34] Burton Miller: You go ahead and tell the people, Burton.

[1:37] Burton Miller: Hey, everybody. So my podcast is called Creative Turn, and I interview creative professionals with a series of questions about the logistics and the motivations and everything behind how they are following their dreams.

[1:52] Burton Miller: And last year, I had the pleasure of meeting Ebony and since then have learned a bit about, you know, your creative projects. And so I had to reach out to see if you wanted to come on the pod.

[2:02] Burton Miller: And that's when you said, let's do a crossover episode.

[2:05] Burton Miller: So in a little while, we're going to do some of the questions from the Creative Turn interview. We won't do all of them. There's ten. And with two folks and, you know, ten questions and a crossover episode, we'd be here all day, which some people may like but not for everybody.

[2:21] Burton Miller: So we'll get to some of the questions in a little bit. But I'm super excited to be here.

[2:25] Ebony Vines: We're so excited to have you, Burton.

[2:27] Pamela Shandrow: Pamela and I are really pumped to do this crossover episode.

[2:30] Ebony Vines: The questions are really engaging. We're really excited about it. And for people who are on Burton's feed who don't know who the heck we are, I'm Ebony Vines.

[2:39] Pamela Shandrow: And that is Pamela Shandro.

[2:42] Ebony Vines: And we're from Theatre Geeks Anonymous on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[2:47] Pamela Shandrow: We've been doing this, as we said, almost ten years, which is crazy.

[2:51] Burton Miller: Amazing. And congratulations.

[2:52] Ebony Vines: Thank you.

[2:53] Pamela Shandrow: And our podcast is about Broadway flops, scandals and new work.

[2:58] Ebony Vines: So today is what we're going to call an intermission sode. And if you've been on our podcast or you listen to it, you know what that means.

[3:06] Pamela Shandrow: Basically, we're just going to talk about what's happening in theater right now.

[3:10] Ebony Vines: So first of all, friends, what is happening in theater in your world that you're excited about?

[3:18] Pamela Shandrow: Burton's in Cleveland, so he's got some fun stuff going on over there.

[3:22] Ebony Vines: Pamela and I are in New York. So is there anything coming this season that you saw recently that you're excited about?

[3:31] Burton Miller: Right now. I want to hear it right now.

[3:34] Ebony Vines: I loved last season, but I freaking loved Death Becomes Her.

[3:41] Burton Miller: I want to see it so bad still.

[3:43] Ebony Vines: First of all, this movie is amazing. This was a movie that defined some of my pre-pubescence into pubescent formative years.

[3:56] Ebony Vines: I think it was the opening song, but it might have been actually the closing song that ran the credits. At the end of the movie was a tango that my younger sister and I would dance across the floor to.

[4:08] Ebony Vines: So I haven't actually seen the show yet. It is a joy and a freaking delight. It's so perfectly written for musical theater.

[4:19] Ebony Vines: It really is. And it's the way that they're able to kill the ladies. I'm like, how did they do that? It's so clever and campy and perfection.

[4:29] Ebony Vines: So my sister and I, it's one of the movies that we love to watch in Mystery Science Theater 3000. It's one that she watches every Halloween still. And so we got to see it together the day after my birthday.

[4:43] Ebony Vines: And we had the most fun. We had so much fun. So that's one thing I've seen that I want to throw out.

[4:51] Ebony Vines: What do you guys have?

[4:54] Burton Miller: Go ahead, Burton.

[4:56] Burton Miller: Because I haven't seen anything. I've been so busy with my work.

[5:01] Pamela Shandrow: Same, honestly.

[5:02] Burton Miller: Well, what I wanted to share is that. OK, so I recently moved to Cleveland. And for those who don't know, Cleveland has a huge theater district.

[5:11] Burton Miller: It basically almost was torn down in the 1960s and then went through a huge community engagement like renovation cycle where they put up this show in one of the lobbies.

[5:24] Burton Miller: So all the theaters were built in the 1920s, big epicenter of vaudeville. And then they put up this show in the 1960s or 70s in one of the lobbies just as a way to get people to come downtown and to see these theaters that have fallen into disrepair.

[5:40] Burton Miller: And then the show was originally scheduled to run for two weeks and it ended up running for two years because people kept coming to see this show that wasn't even in the theater itself. It was in the lobby.

[5:52] Burton Miller: And so after that, just it led to a huge surge of support for the renovation of there's in this theater complex. There's I think at least five different theaters. Two of them are large enough to host the traveling Broadway shows.

[6:06] Burton Miller: So there's always a traveling Broadway show coming through Cleveland. And a lot of the national tours will launch here because since there are two theaters, they can use one for a bit of a longer time frame in order to launch and practice the show.

[6:20] Burton Miller: Do all the tech, which is what recently happened with Hell's Kitchen. So a few a couple of months ago, we saw the launch of the Hell's Kitchen national tour, which was so much fun.

[6:32] Burton Miller: It had been a while since I had like intentionally listened to Alicia Keys music and it really took me back to high school. But you it's one of those shows where you realize, you know, so, so, so, so many of the songs and get to and getting to see them.

[6:46] Burton Miller: And just in kind of like the storytelling format was was super fun. Did either of you see Hell's Kitchen?

[6:53] Pamela Shandrow: I haven't yet. I haven't.

[6:55] Burton Miller: OK, it's on tour now, but it's still going on Broadway, right?

[7:00] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, it is. Yolanda Adams is about to go in.

[7:03] Burton Miller: OK, awesome. And then we saw Six. That came through about a month ago with my first time seeing Six.

[7:10] Burton Miller: And then last week we saw Spamalot, which also was a national tour launch. But it's not the first national tour. I think they've done a few tours before, but the current tour also launched in Cleveland.

[7:22] Burton Miller: And that one I absolutely loved. So much fun at Spamalot. And this cast was mind blowing. They were so talented. The comedy was dialed up to a hundred and like just the comedic acting blew my mind.

[7:39] Burton Miller: And there's the Camelot number is like Vegas inspired. And I'm from Las Vegas. So that was right up my alley. And my boyfriend and I went to that show together and we had such a fun time.

[7:51] Burton Miller: But I ended up getting a part time job at Playhouse Square bartending, which just helps to like be in there more and spend more time there. And sometimes we can snag free tickets, which is great.

[8:03] Burton Miller: But it's a really cool complex. And I encourage anybody to come to Cleveland and see a show in Playhouse Square. It's a really cool set of theaters.

[8:10] Pamela Shandrow: That's amazing. Spamalot. I saw this last iteration. That was fun. That was really fun.

[8:15] Ebony Vines: Pamela has seen six.

[8:19] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, I love six. I mean, I saw and I saw the tour of that. I haven't seen it on Broadway. I saw it when it was going through St. Louis.

[8:26] Burton Miller: Oh, OK.

[8:30] Pamela Shandrow: But it was great. We saw that almost a month ago and I still have the song stuck in my head.

[8:35] Ebony Vines: I mean, that one was so catchy. Yeah. Agreed.

[8:39] Burton Miller: I think, too. I mean, I played through Cleveland when I was in the Phantom Tour. But it's like when like 2009, 2010, I think.

[8:49] Pamela Shandrow: So it's been a while. I'm sure quite a bit of that complex has been built up since then.

[8:55] Burton Miller: Can you kind of speak to that? It's probably it's probably the same because the it's the Key Bank State Theater. And then the the Conner Palace are the two Broadway venues.

[9:06] Burton Miller: And those were restored, you know, as much as they could be to their original condition. And after that, they're not really being changed anymore.

[9:11] Burton Miller: You know, they're they're had they haven't undergone any massive renovations. There are some smaller theaters that are a little bit more modern. The Outcall, the Helen, I mean, those are.

[9:26] Burton Miller: And then the Allen Theater was another of the large ones that was then cut down to be about 500 seats. And that's where Cleveland Playhouse does their resident productions.

[9:37] Burton Miller: But other than that, I don't think that the main the major Broadway venues will have changed at all since you came through.

[9:45] Pamela Shandrow: Nice. What was it you said? Spamalot, Hell's Kitchen six. Was there another one you mentioned?

[9:55] Burton Miller: No, not not that I've seen it in Cleveland yet. Well, we saw, I mean, the Jinks and Dale, a holiday show, which was fabulous.

[10:03] Burton Miller: Wonderful. And so last year, Taylor and I, well, Taylor is the friend who I know Ebony through our mutual friend. But Taylor and I last year saw Sunset Boulevard.

[10:18] Burton Miller: But Nicole Scherzinger was in Cleveland about a month ago doing the benefit concert for Playhouse Square. So we went to see that.

[10:24] Burton Miller: She did. Well, it was like a 45 minute concert, but it was still it was so much fun. It was part of a larger night where people were doing like dinners and fundraisers and everything.

[10:35] Burton Miller: And then everybody came in for the concert portion. And, you know, she started it basically went Broadway and then Purple Rain in the middle and then ended with like a massive Pussycat Dolls medley.

[10:47] Burton Miller: So it was fantastic, even if it only was 45 minutes long.

[10:51] Pamela Shandrow: That is very. That's amazing.

[10:56] Ebony Vines: So those are I think those are my updates.

[10:58] Pamela Shandrow: Amazing. I have. So for Broadway, there's a couple of shows that I saw out of. Well, I saw one out of town and I saw one off Broadway.

[11:15] Pamela Shandrow: So Liberation. Do you all know about this play?

[11:20] Burton Miller: I've heard I just heard of it very recently.

[11:25] Pamela Shandrow: So it's like loosely based on the playwright's life where she's processing like the death of her mother and who her mother started out as and who she became.

[11:36] Pamela Shandrow: And trying to reconcile like this woman who started out with very feminist notions that were about a certain type of feminism. And then when she got older, she became a person that her daughter's just like struggling to understand.

[11:59] Pamela Shandrow: And so it I found it like particularly there's a scene where like she she. Somebody sort of plays, quote unquote, her mom so she can sort of talk to her.

[12:12] Pamela Shandrow: And like, as all of you know, who listen to Theater Geeks Anonymous, I lost my mom 11 years ago. So it is that part really stuck with me because they're like my mom and I talked all the time.

[12:24] Pamela Shandrow: But to be able to have a conversation about, you know. Who she was, who she wanted to be and like who she later became. It's something that like if you don't have your parents around to kind of ask that question about like their trajectory.

[12:39] Pamela Shandrow: You know, to be able to kind of process that in your writing is really special. And so it's a really interesting play. Taylor loves it. It's like one of his favorite things he saw.

[12:50] Pamela Shandrow: And then I saw in Chicago when it was at Steppenwolf, it was my first time at Steppenwolf. I saw a little Little Bear Ridge Road, which is a play that's on Broadway right now and has Laurie Metcalf in it.

[13:05] Pamela Shandrow: And it does take place like during the pandemic. And it's a two hander. And it's mostly in this like little living room between this aunt and nephew.

[13:20] Pamela Shandrow: And it is a really interesting, you know, commentary on. The disparate ideas and ideals of generations and what the previous generation has gone through.

[13:38] Pamela Shandrow: And then versus like how we see the world in our generation, like it was a really interesting play. And of course, like Laurie Metcalf's amazing. Love her. Love her. Yeah, she's great.

[13:52] Pamela Shandrow: So those are two things I can speak to that are on Broadway. And then one thing I'm excited to see that I would like to see because I love St. Ann's Warehouse.

[14:02] Pamela Shandrow: I do want to see Anna Christie. Oh, yeah. I love that space.

[14:08] Pamela Shandrow: St. Ann's Warehouse is, I would say, my favorite theater in the city because it's just so well. And the things I've seen there, like they always really stick with me.

[14:18] Pamela Shandrow: I talked about them for years and years. And then one last show I want to talk about that's off Broadway because I'm on the board of this theater company.

[14:27] Pamela Shandrow: So I should talk about it. Absolutely. Cold Corps has a new play called The Surgeon and Her Daughters. It runs until I believe the beginning of January.

[14:43] Burton Miller: They have talkbacks, and the talkbacks aren't with the cast and crew every night. There's one with the cast and creative, but like, they're on very specific topics like Latinx playwrights, developing new work, there's a deep-seated truth talkback, mentorship, and then when they did Still, which was a play by Leah Romeo, who is in the developing new work conversation, um, they had like people from the ACLU, people from Planned Parenthood, things like that, having conversations as well. So I just, I love the post-show conversations that our theater company does. This play is really interesting because it is about veterans, it is about food insecurity, it is about immigration, it's about a lot of different topics, like all within this family, and, um, I haven't seen it yet, but I'm going before I leave for Christmas, so I'm really excited. Also, if you have children, there's a child care reimbursement, so you can... Amazing!

[15:50] Ebony Vines: Yeah, our little, our little board, the little, um, team I chair, we, we came up with that.

[15:59] Burton Miller: You made theater accessible. Yes. What a concept.

[16:03] Ebony Vines: That's amazing.

[16:05] Burton Miller: It's a tiny theater company, so the bigger ones have no, you know, they have no excuse.

[16:10] Ebony Vines: No.

[16:11] Burton Miller: And who needs it more, who needs a night out at the theater more than parents?

[16:15] Ebony Vines: Absolutely.

[16:16] Burton Miller: That's right. So, um, if you have kids, go on the Colt Corps website and you can find out how to apply for the child care reimbursement.

[16:27] Ebony Vines: Um, all right. So there's just like a couple people I want to talk about, um, who I think will lead nicely into the Burton conversation.

[16:33] Ebony Vines: Um, the first one's kind of sad, but I used to be an assistant for years and years, up until May, I was an assistant. So, um, Stephen Klar, who was Stephen Sondheim's assistant for 34 years, passed away. He died suddenly at 67 years old. And I'm like, that's a hard job.

[16:59] Burton Miller: Yeah.

[17:00] Ebony Vines: It's a really hard job to take care of one of the most famous individuals in the world whose work is lauded beyond anyone, what anyone could possibly imagine being in a role like that. Like I've never been in a role for a famous person, but like Stephen Sondheim being one of the most famous people, especially in theater, being so lauded and like even worshipped by people and to be the assistant for that man and his work is really incredible. And so I just wanted to say that because I feel like assistants really don't get any kind of applause. It's the people they support that get all the applause. And it's a hard job.

[17:45] Burton Miller: And it's pretty, a pretty young age as well.

[17:49] Ebony Vines: Seven. And they said suddenly, so there's, you know, it wasn't from a long illness or something. It was very unexpected. So.

[17:56] Burton Miller: Oh, man.

[17:57] Ebony Vines: Yeah. Bless his heart. Then we have the new artistic director at Wooly Mammoth is Reggie D. White, who's a 38 year old young Black man. This is the third artistic director they've ever had because the first one was there for 40 years and also started it in 1980. Then after that, the next artistic director, she just left or announced her leaving in March because she is going to Lincoln Center. And the thing that's interesting about Reggie D. White, the new artistic director, and what he said was this is from the Washington Post article, White's job title at Arena is senior director of artistic strategy and impact.

[18:36] Burton Miller: They say it reflects a bit of a buzzword gymnastics. He did not previously want to be on track to become an artistic director. Having worked, he says, at a large legacy institution in D.C. and seeing the shifts in culture and audience patterns and the political upheaval, the constraints felt nearly impossible to deal with. And right now I work in a not for profit theater and I can speak to that. It's very true. He said they were unromantic about the challenges, which is helpful, like people being very honest about it. And finances for the institution, which has an annual budget of six million, are relatively stable, largely thanks to a recent two million dollar gift. But like many arts organizations, Wooley is navigating funding gaps under the Trump administration.

I think costs and the challenge of getting ticket buyers through the door, which like we're also experiencing at my job. And so it's just very interesting. Like I wish him all the best. I hope it worked out really well. I hope everything goes smoothly because it is an extremely difficult job and it is not one that I would want. So we absolutely need people like him.

[19:53] Ebony Vines: And then this is I'm really excited about this. There are two women in their 90s on Broadway right now. I'm so excited about it. One of them is making her Broadway debut at 90. I love it. So happy. OK. Yeah. So did either of you see the movie Thelma? Did or did you see the posters with the like little old lady on the on the like motorbike?

[20:15] Burton Miller: I don't think so. I mean, that strikes a chord with me, but I'm not exactly sure.

[20:22] Ebony Vines: Well, go find that movie and watch it because it is a joy and a freaking delight. Thelma is played by June Squibb, who's 96 years old. She is in Marjorie Prime right now, which just opened this weekend. And she her character in it is. Oh, thank you. Yeah, OK. It's amazing because she gets scammed and she's like, absolutely not. And she finds the scammers. Brilliant. So good. It's so good. And Richard Rountree, it was his last film before he passed away. He's like with her on the motorbikes trying to.

[21:04] Burton Miller: OK, well, I the reason I need to see this because I if for those most you probably don't know, but I used to be a social worker for 10 years and the last social work that I did was elder abuse investigations. And a big part of our caseload was financial exploitation and scams. And it is so nearly impossible to uncover a scam or to recover any finances lost in scams. And so I feel like that would be very satisfying to see a story where she finds them.

[21:31] Ebony Vines: Yes. Oh, good. It's really great. And I just I cannot recommend it enough. I cannot recommend it enough. But June Squibb, this is what's fun about her. I mean, there's a lot of things that are fun about June Squibb. But she made her Broadway debut in Gypsy.

[21:46] Burton Miller: Oh, wow.

[21:47] Ebony Vines: Yeah, gosh. Like the original with Ethel Merman.

[21:54] Burton Miller: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That's amazing.

[21:56] Ebony Vines: No idea. I had no idea. And so but her first leading role in an action comedy was Thelma. She also voiced characters in animated film Ralph Breaks the Internet, Toy Story 4, Soul, Inside Out and Zootopia. Very cool. She's great. She's great.

[22:21] Burton Miller: And then we have, OK, for the British nerds like myself, Anne Reid is 90. She's crossed the pond to make her Broadway debut in Oedipus. Amazing. I'm so I love her. I'm so excited. If anybody likes Jane Austen, I watch Sanditon.

[22:40] Ebony Vines: OK, I need Lady Denim. She was a take no prisoners. She didn't put up with any BS. OK, like people thought they could pull one over on her because she was older and she was like, absolutely not. Right. I loved her. And then I also love Sally Wainwright's shows. I don't know if you've seen like my favorite is Happy Valley.

[23:07] Burton Miller: Yes, I love Happy Valley. It's so good.

[23:09] Ebony Vines: So there's a show called Last Tango in Halifax, which is loosely based on when her mother was in her 70s. Her father had passed away, like Sally's father had passed away. And her mother on Facebook, like started talking to this man who she knew when she was in like high school. And they started chatting. They fell in love and got married in their 70s. It's so cute. It's so cute.

[23:36] Burton Miller: Wait a minute. That's literally what's happening it to my boyfriend's mom right now. That's the exact same thing. Facebook reconnect childhood friend dating in their 70s getting married. It's parallel.

[23:55] Ebony Vines: Oh, my gosh. OK, I have to see this then. It's on Netflix right now. It is so great. Last Tango in Halifax. It's so great. And so and read was in that. But like, that's that's my last two points. I just wanted to throw that little bit of June Squibb and read in their 90s on Broadway. Love it. And amazing recommendations. Thank you.

[24:14] Burton Miller: Welcome.

[24:21] Ebony Vines: All right. So next, we're going to go into the Burton part of the podcast.

[24:27] Burton Miller: Yeah, I'm going to talk. We're going to talk through these questions. So do you want me to in the chat or I can? I'll just I'll just ask them.

[24:32] Ebony Vines: OK. Yeah. So the reason that I wanted to start this podcast is over the summer, I did a small comedy tour and wrote the show over the previous year and put up this show in six cities. I started in New York, ended in L.A. for the summer portion and then did one final show in Cleveland last month and Playhouse Square, which was really fun. And I think for me, the most interesting part of it all is the process of producing the writing. I love the performing. I love. But more than any of it, it's just like the process of how all of this stuff comes together. And so doing and doing that, I realized that. I want to talk to more creative professionals about the nuts and bolts of what they're doing and their motivations and their processes, and also things like the business and financial structures that they're using or accessing to support their work, whether people are incorporating businesses, whether people are creating their own companies, whether people are doing all 1099 work.

I just like to hear about the details. And I think some of that comes from my background as a social worker where you're just trained out the gate to have highly invasive conversations and interviews with people because you need to just in a very short amount of time, like gather all this information. And then in the world of social work, you're trying to come up with a case plan that is going to connect people to resources and services. Obviously, that's not the goal of the podcast, but I just am naturally like nosy and interested and like to know how people are making things and what's going on behind the scenes to actually bring this to life. And so this is the end of the first season. And so I've talked to a professional bartender who's opening their own bar in Manhattan next year, who's an old friend who went on to find a lot of success in like the cocktail industry.

Talk to a professional dancer, filmmaker, moderate or contemporary artist, and just hearing how they're finding inspiration and how they're making it work in a climate where it's increasingly difficult to for everybody financially. So then especially in the creative arts. And so what I'd like to do is I we're only going to go through a few of the questions, not all 10, but you can listen to any of the other episodes to hear interviews where we go through all the 10 questions. But I'll just pose some of these to each of you, and I'd love to hear your answers to them. So the creative turn interview typically starts off with just the broad question, which is to tell us all about your creativity. And that can be, you know, what you're what you're into, what your childhood was like, what you do now. But I'd love to just hear from each of you about your creativity.

[27:37] Burton Miller: Yeah, I can go first, if that's okay.

[27:40] Ebony Vines: Amazing.

[27:41] Burton Miller: Okay. I mean, both Ebony and I bonded over the fact that when we were little, little people, we fell in love with musical theatre, we fell in love with like old movie musicals and things like that. And it really kind of informed our life moving from that point on. For me, I wanted to perform, I came to New York to be on Broadway, and I was pretty, I was pretty successful. I did a couple of tours, I did Phantom of the Opera and Wicked for a good seven years. And then when I came back to New York, I discovered that it was a little bit harder on my body and my soul than I expected it to be. So I have deviated from that. I haven't closed the door on it completely. But the creative path that I took was actually into dog grooming, which you don't necessarily immediately think is a creative field.

But although there is a technical skill involved in it, it's about making dogs really cute. That's been my creative path at this point where each and every day I go into work and I've got, you know, between four and seven dogs that I clip and I, you know, use what their features to make them look even cuter, and I make them more comfortable. And it's, it's been actually really awesome, because it's melded together two of my loves, which is creativity and also dogs.

[29:09] Ebony Vines: Well, and you're holding one right now.

[29:10] Burton Miller: I am. I know he crawled up into my lap and I couldn't say no. So now he is settled. This is Dudley. He's my little mini Dachshund.

[29:18] Ebony Vines: Oh my, he is so cute.

[29:20] Burton Miller: He is a sweet little man, but he likes to impose himself on me whenever he gets a chance.

[29:26] Burton Miller: And that includes when I'm on camera talking with other podcasters. We have three cats between my partner and I, and there's one that has to stay behind a closed door whenever we're recording, or else we will never hear the end of it. I mean, I don't know if you saw, like, the first 20 minutes that we were talking, I was, like, hand over the mute button just in case.

[29:48] Pamela Shandrow: He was crawling up on your shoulder.

[29:52] Burton Miller: He was licking my neck. I had to put a stop to that when I was like, okay, listen, I'm not in front of company. And maybe also just say, like, how you got him, because it was also.

[30:06] Pamela Shandrow: It was, yes. I mean, he was a grooming client and also a daycare client at the salon that I work at. And his owner came in one day and said he was needing to forfeit him to surrender him, and he didn't know how. And we, who are all bleeding hearts that work there and we love animals, said, well, give us a little bit more information. And it turned out that he was in a very bad living situation and was going to be needing to go to a men's shelter. And they don't allow you to bring your dogs to shelters, which is really unfortunate because, you know, unhoused or not, insecure housing or not, your animals are very important to you. And that is one of those things that I feel would be important for us to keep that relationship together.

I had just lost my sole dog two weeks prior, so I was an open wound. But I also kind of saw in the situation I was like, listen, I can't take him forever, but I hate that you would think you had to make this permanent decision based on a very temporary set of circumstances. So I offered to just house him. I'm going to keep him. You pay for vet, you pay for food, but I'll keep him as long as you need me to until you kind of get settled. Ultimately, he ended up in California where his family was, but he wasn't going to be able to take Dudley with him. So he did reach out and say, I can't. But please, if you've bonded with him, please keep him. So I was, again, an open wound. I was not looking for a dog at that point.

I needed to heal and grieve. And I had someone in mind who was looking for another house, like another apartment that was pet friendly at the time. So I was like, well, I'll just hold him until you find that. But I don't know if anyone if you've ever tried to find housing in New York City, it's very difficult. And month after month, I was like, I'm bonding and he's bonding with my other dog at the time. So it was a foregone conclusion that he was mine. But it really did kind of make sense to me that Sweet Pea, who was the dog that I had just lost, was probably the one that sent him my way.

[32:26] Burton Miller: How long has Dudley been with you?

[32:26] Pamela Shandrow: Almost three years.

[32:31] Burton Miller: Yeah, congratulations. That's really special.

[32:31] Pamela Shandrow: Thank you. I think so, too. And yeah, like for me, it's like Pamela said, we bonded and we were like, well, if we'd lived in the same state and went to the same school, we probably would have been friends.

[32:39] Burton Miller: Oh, fast. Yeah. Fast friends. Listening to the Into the Woods album and all these other stuff, like the nerds we were. And so for me, it was my mom, my mom. Like she would see like me doing theater, my sister sings and my brother plays the drums and she would say, like, I don't know where you all get it from. Meanwhile, my mom was in the Morgan State Choir, which is like a big thing. She was like one of the worship leaders at our church. Also did all the music directing for the Christmas plays that we did growing up. And I was like, what do you mean? What do you mean you don't know where we got this from? Are you kidding? And she was the one who like when she would be grading papers, we sit in front of do you remember the TV Guide channel? Do you remember that?

[33:35] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, yeah. So I miss it.

[33:41] Burton Miller: We I would sit down in the floor in front of her and she would be grading papers and I would just like call out things that were that sounded interesting to me. Right. And so that's how I saw West Side Story for the first time. And so I saw The King and I for the first time and all these other movie musicals because I would call him out. She was like, oh, that's good. Go to that. Go to that. And then we watch those together. And so I would say like when I was in when I was little, I was doing, you know, all of the Christmas plays and musicals that we did. Then it wasn't until high school, really, that I that I was like, I really, really like this a lot. And I went did became an honor thespian, which is like so nerdy, but I was so proud of it.

I have my be proud of my ropes. I don't care. You know, I lived at my school. I was there so much that the one of the administrators one night I was there till like 9 p.m. and she came up to me and she's like, Ebony, do you ever leave? I guess not. You're like, it's my life. Theater is my life. And so then I was like 19 or 20. The first time I was like, I think I want to be a producer because it took that long for me to realize that actually was and what that meant. And I said it to my theater professor and he was like, oh, yeah, that's exactly what you should do. And then it took until this, this, you know, ripe old age of 43 to actually sign my first Broadway contract in next season. So, yeah, that's my that's my windy, very, very windy trajectory.

[35:31] Burton Miller: I love it. And I want to put a pin in next. I want to come back to the show and talk about it in a few minutes as well. But the next question is just to share a little bit more about how you took the turn into your specific forms of creativity professionally and what that looked like for both of you to actually say, OK, this is the direction that I'm going in as a career or as a professional. And how did you make that work?

[35:58] Pamela Shandrow: For me, with producing, it was. At first, for a really long time, I thought everybody knew what they were doing and I had to have like a B, C, D, like the enneagram. I'm a one. So I like there's rules that you have to follow and steps you have to take. And none of those were panning out. And so when my mom was dying, I was like in this really pivotal sort of like two roads diverged moment where I was like, I have got to change my life and I just don't know how. And Pamela and I went to the same church. That's how we met. And there's a friend that I still have from that time who was the only person who understood what I meant. And being friends with her and the tools that she gave me led me down the path that was like, oh, I can make my own work.

I can just produce. I have to be on like some very strategic paint by numbers path in order to do that. And so in doing that and realizing that I can make my own work, I then entered into the Commercial Theater Institute, which was this program. There was like a 14 week program that was run by T.D. or sorry, the Broadway League. And the Theater Development Fund, TDF. And so I did that. I made a bunch of friends in there, people that I still hang out with and talk to people that have produced on Broadway, who have Tony Awards, who have Tony nominations now. And one of them is like my big sister. And she is like determined. She's been bound and determined to like bring me into a show. And so we went to see a gun and powder.

It was called at Paper Mill Playhouse. And we saw it with our other friend, Kyle, who we started a EDI group called the theatrical think tank for theatrical innovation. And we saw the musical and that, you know, we'll do it later. But that's led me on to the path of the contract that I signed in April. So that's how I got here.

[38:20] Burton Miller: That's incredible. And there is no it is no like. Predetermined point ABC, it's just it is the long and winding road.

[38:28] Pamela Shandrow: That's right. Yeah. And I think that it's that is an important thing for everybody that's going into the creative field to kind of understand that, yeah, there are some people that might go straight from high school into a Broadway show or, you know, straight from point A to point B. But that is so very rare. And and I think the knowledge that you gain just going that circuitous path will help you so much more tremendously when you finally get to a point on your on the spectrum, because also it's not just point A to point B. There are so many different points along the way, especially in the creative field, because no show is going to last 40 years until the you know, until you retire, you know, so you're you're constantly kind of figuring out what you're going to do next or what you want to do next in that creative field.

[39:32] Burton Miller: For me, as far as dog grooming is concerned, I was doing the Phantom tour and it was closing the music box company. It was open for 18 years at that point. And they finally gave us the closing notice. So we were going to be done on Halloween of 2010.

[39:45] Pamela Shandrow: OK.

[39:45] Burton Miller: And I was like, well, I I'm moving to New York for the first time.

[39:50] Pamela Shandrow: Where did the show close?

[39:52] Burton Miller: Say again.

[39:52] Pamela Shandrow: Where did the show close?

[39:52] Burton Miller: Oh, in L.A.

[39:58] Pamela Shandrow: OK. That was really.

[39:58] Burton Miller: Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty cool. I've been to the Pantages several times with both of those shows. I really like it.

[40:05] Pamela Shandrow: That's where I saw Cat.

[40:05] Burton Miller: Oh, amazing. Amazing. So at that point, when the show ended, I was like, I have money and I have time and you never have those two things at the same time. So I was like, what do I want to do? And I had Sweet Pea on the road with me and she is a dog that she was a dog that required grooming. So I had just been taking her to groomers along the way. But I was like, if I could do that like I. So I looked into it. I was like, it's as a dog groomer. I'm going to see. But it was like it was a lot. It was a lot of money for something that I didn't know I'd be good at or something I didn't even know I'd like. But I thought I'm just going to I'm going to take this kind of step of faith. And if I'm not good at it, if I don't like it, at least I can give Sweet Pea her grooms for the rest of her life.

But I was, you know, I was going to happen. And I ended up just absolutely loving it. There is, you know, yes, you're dealing with dogs and sometimes that's not not so great and sometimes that's amazing. But at the end of the day, like the product that you give back to the owner at the end of that hour and a half to two hours, that is like really cool, you know, to see, especially like their face when they get their dog back. They think, you know, their dog is the cutest dog to them in the whole entire world. But like, I also know that this dog looks real cute and this is a real cute dog.

[41:33] Pamela Shandrow: You're like, I did that.

[41:36] Burton Miller: Exactly.

[41:36] Pamela Shandrow: So are you you're with a salon now?

[41:43] Burton Miller: I work at a place called Disco Paws. It's the Steinway location in here in Astoria.

[41:48] Pamela Shandrow: OK, I walk 15 minutes to work every day, which is lovely.

[41:52] Burton Miller: Amazing.

[41:53] Pamela Shandrow: If I never had to take the train again, I think I'd be so happy. And I haven't in a long time.

[41:58] Burton Miller: So God forbid, drive.

[42:00] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, my gosh. I didn't even I got rid of my car because it was good for you. I had to change the brake pads so often because it was just sitting and wasn't being driven that I was just like, I'm gonna let it go.

[42:04] Burton Miller: No, that's that's the dream right there.

[42:13] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Well, the next one is to choose one specific project or creative undertaking that you're particularly proud of, and it can be new, old, whatever, and share your process for making that. And I know that's like very broad, but just, you know, kind of like trace trace the life of the project or the life of the undertaking and how it was that that you yourself made that or what or if you were part of a team, you know, your role in producing or making that.

[42:49] Burton Miller: Um, I I'll talk about typecast, the benefit concert, because it's so fun. And Pamela was in that. So it it is the thing that I would say probably like changed the course of my life. That's not really to say, but like it is the thing that it was like the first like bigger thing, like thing that I produced and it gave me a tremendous amount of confidence. It was so what happened was when things happen in the world and I get angry, I have to figure out like how to channel that anger into something positive. And so it was 2017. And you can guess what happened. I was mad. And so during that time, there was there was a gentleman I was following named Christian Picciolini, and he had been like a hate group leader.

He'd come out of that life and he started this organization that was bringing other people out of hate groups. And it was called Life After Hate. And it was defunded by a certain administration. And that was the beginning of a hate group. And it was defunded by a certain administration. And

[44:08] Burton Miller: The announcement came out right after the Charlottesville massacre happened, right? And so I was like, well, this is not, this is unconscionable. What can I do? So a friend like just I was listening to a song one day that like Spotify just sent me that I'd never heard before. And then one of my friends was like, that would make a great cabaret. And I was like, Oh my God, that's what I'm doing. So I did this benefit concert called Typecast. And it was like, we had each person tell a story about their experience as a performer. And so like Pamela told this really poignant story, a really heartbreaking story. And then she's saying, I'm the greatest star. We had a woman, we had Kuhu Verma in that show, which a lot of people will know from different movies and television shows and Murder Mystery too.

And she talks about like her experience of like auditioning for Aladdin, but they actually didn't want actually Indian people, women, you know, it's like crazy stuff. So everyone's telling like these stories, and you're just like, what the crap is going on. But it was like, they would tell the story, and then they would sing a song that just reiterated that and was like, it's that, that thing that musicals are supposed to do, which is, you have so much feeling you can't speak anymore. So you have to sing. And so we did that with like songs from a bunch of different musicals. And so for people who were in the audience who weren't like very musical versed, they thought that like the songs were specifically written for several people say that to me, and I was like, No, no, that's from this show, that's from that show.

And even me who I like, I'm not a singer. And so I opened the show with the song from A Chorus Line called, I Could Never Really Sing. And I had my friend who produced it with me, Jodi, she was sitting at the piano with our music director, and she would sing the parts where I was supposed to be quote unquote, singing. That's well, I just I just last month showed my partner High School Musical for the first time. And that's what they did to Zac Efron in the first one. They piped in someone else's vocals on the high notes for him and they called it blending. Well, they came out later and like called it blending. But that's hilarious to do that live.

[46:38] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, it was. It was fun. It was really great because it was, you know, we talk about this all the time on our podcast. Theater is a mirror to what's happening in the world, right? And that's why it's so important. But it's still about entertaining at the end of the day. So you have this kind of earnest, mixed with fun and enlightening and entertaining, right? Like, and that's, that's that mix. That's so hard to come by. And that's why a lot of musical theater doesn't last, right? It can't find that balance. It can't find that mix. This Typecast was one of those cabarets. It was one night, right? We had one full rehearsal with everybody there. And then everything else was just kind of piecemeal.

But it came together and was such a spark. It was a really very cool. It felt good to be on the stage. And then talking with the audience afterward, it felt really good for them to be in the audience like seeing this and hearing these stories. Because it's, you know, you think you think being in theater, you think being in the movies and TV is such, you know, a romantic thing, and they have romanticized it so that you aspire to get right, but it's not like that. Once you're there, it's still a job. But it's a job that still allows for you to be discriminated against based on what you look like. And it's such a to be such a progressive art form, and still to be so in the dark ages.

[48:19] Unknown Speaker: And perhaps more so than other industries.

[48:21] Unknown Speaker: Very much so, very much so. And it's still run by old white men. And that is also an issue. So theater companies like the one that Ebony is involved with, Colt Corps, and one that my dad is involved with. He's in Illinois with a place. It's a theater called Coalescence. These are places where they are really trying to bring a diverse voice to the stage with gender and sexual identity and also of course, black and white and all other colors that you could possibly imagine. But like just every voice can be heard so that no matter who you are, no matter how you identify, you're going to see yourself on that stage. And that is so important. For that, I also want to shout out Cleveland Public Theater.

Besides Playhouse Square, which is like the big theater district in Cleveland, there are a lot of smaller, fantastic professional theater companies and Cleveland Public Theater is one of those who primarily produces new works by underrepresented groups, and playwrights and performers. And last month, Nick and I went and saw a show called The End of Black Excellence by Chris Webb. And it we were speechless. It was phenomenal show. So just powerful and well performed and fun and engaging. But major shout out to the theaters who are putting that at the forefront. Incredible.

[49:53] Burton Miller: I mean, so with Oh, sorry, go ahead. I was just gonna say it was like the trajectory just to get there was basically I didn't know what I was doing out to people that I thought maybe would know what they were doing. So like Jody, who I didn't know very well, we just said cried after the election together. And I was like, I have this idea. And you've maybe done a cabaret before. Would you help me? And she was like, this is a fantastic idea. I absolutely will. And so she was my co-producer. And then with her, we found Madeline Smith. And she at the time was the youngest woman to ever conduct on Broadway. And she was like, I totally want to do this, too. And so she came along with us. And so that was our little team.

And it was like, such a love fest. Those two working with those two women was such a joy. And I'm so happy that that was like my first, like, lead, quote unquote, producer thing, because it was such a good, have a good team, get a good team of people who are like-minded, you're in the same path as you that so that you don't have like, having to argue back and forth about what's important. When you all know what's important, you can make the thing happen. And when you don't know exactly what you're doing, then you're all in the team together to figure it out. Yeah, that's that's what I I just wanted to say that.

[51:19] Pamela Shandrow: What was your venue?

[51:30] Burton Miller: We were at the Duplex.

[51:30] Pamela Shandrow: And is that a concert venue or a theater venue?

[51:37] Burton Miller: So the Duplex is like a club and then like this very legendary cabaret that like, I mean, Barbra Streisand was in there. It was the whole I mean, is very legendary. And so we were in there is a small little thing you can get at most 60 people. We were sold out. I was very excited.

[51:55] Pamela Shandrow: Did you have to do your own AV production? Or did they do that for you?

[52:02] Burton Miller: And what a sweet human he was. So he was so sweet and so kind. He was so happy to be there. He loved the show. He was like, I hope you come back and do another show. I haven't gone back to do another show. I'm so sorry. 10 year anniversary to celebrate 10 years of the pod. Hello. And years of Typecast, which like I mean, we've got the same administration again. So um, but yeah, I delightful space. If you live in New York, and you're looking for a cabaret space, they are wonderful to work with.

[52:40] Pamela Shandrow: Love this. That's incredible. Well, Pamela, what about you? What about a creative undertaking that you're proud of and sharing your process for making that?

[52:47] Pamela Shandrow: I, I, I will forever love having been a part of Wicked. I know that it's like it's in the world again, because of the movies coming out. But I'm talking specifically about the show right now, because I haven't actually watched the movie. I can't yet. I can't like get myself there. But I'll get there enough. Yeah, it just it impressed upon me so much, not just the show itself. I had read the book prior. So like there, that story is a has a fantastic story. And it is well done in the show, although had to be abridged because the book was so full of information. That's okay. Like, but besides that, the way that they have created this world on stage, Joe Mantello, the way that he created this world is that every single person that is on that stage is important.

And I know that sounds like no duh, Pamela. But that's not been the case for really any other show I've ever been in unless you have some sort of little feature. The ensemble is background, right? But in Wicked, the ensemble is the reason why that Wicked which is being hunted. Yeah, they are the reason why Glinda has been lifted up to Glinda. They are the reason why the story is moving in the first place. If they were not there, it would just be two girls that went to college together, right? So it and they made sure to really impress upon us that when we were on stage, we were very important to moving that story along. And that made it such an amazing process to be a part of acting wise and of course singing wise.

I mean, the music is fantastic. Stephen Schwartz is one of my favorites. But even if you're not actually saying lines on that stage, there is so much to chew the depth of character that you can create as a part of that ensemble was just really remarkable to me. So that is when I if they called me tomorrow, I would drop everything for them. Like I, I really loved being a part of not only the show, but also the creative team. They were really amazing.

[55:08] Pamela Shandrow: We also when I was in Wicked, we were in Denver, Colorado. And sometimes when a cast is in a place for an extended period of time, and usually these big shows, I mean, the shows that I was involved with were like, four to six weeks roughly in each city. When we sit for that long, there sometimes will be an opportunity to do benefit performances in the city that we're in. And so when we were in Denver, there was a planned benefit performance that we were going to be doing of The Rocky Horror Show.

[55:41] Burton Miller: Me too, right. But none of us, like, I think all of us kind of went into it going, this is the tiniest little venue. They the venue that they had chosen so tiny. We didn't know if people were going to come out because it's Rocky Horror Show. So yes, there's like this, there's the occult following, but you never know. So we just kind of went into it. We were like, I don't know. I don't know if we're excited. Blah, blah, blah. The very first note, the audience was like, with us. And it was just a moment. There are so few moments as an actor that you can like really truly be like, we're all together. Every single person actually Typecast was one of those moments for me as well. But like this show, it was so amazing.

And we all came downstairs for intermission. And I think all of us were just a little bit shell shocked by the reception that we were getting. And also this kind of collaborative, because it is a collaborative show when you see it, you know, even if you're watching the movie, you've got the double cast or the shadow cast, and you've got audience members yelling stuff at you. So we made room for that stuff. But we didn't actually believe that they would be taking advantage of that room. And then when they did, it was just like, yes, it was it was really cool. So we actually had, we were heading to Las Vegas, I think it was two cities later, we ended up doing it again at the Tropicana.

[57:10] Pamela Shandrow: Oh my gosh, which is RIP Tropicana. It's demolished now.

[57:17] Burton Miller: Oh my gosh, I know. And I actually loved Las Vegas. I mean, Las Vegas is just the strip and then a bunch of desert with houses in it. I loved being there. Actually in the desert as well. Like that's where I was staying like out in the desert. But okay, yeah, but when you like the strip is so it's one of those places where it's so small, like it seems so big when you see it in movies. And when you hear about it, and when you you know, people tell you about it, but it's just this tiny little street.

[57:44] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, and everything's right next door to each other.

[57:49] Burton Miller: Oh my gosh, everything is right on top of each other. You can walk the entire we did. I mean, people we drove to the strip and then we would park and then you'd walk you could walk the entire strip in like maybe 25 minutes. It's very short. It was good. I liked it a lot. That was that was a cool, creative and theatrical experience for me.

[58:03] Pamela Shandrow: Oh my gosh. So how did you end up coming on board with Wicked?

[58:09] Burton Miller: Oh, gosh. Okay. So this is actually kind of a cool story. I and I was living in an apartment in Washington Heights, but there was a fire in the apartment directly above mine. And when they put out the fire, all of the water that they used came into my apartment. So I was out of my apartment for who who even knows how long, which this already sounds like the beginning of a musical. This is like opening scene material right here.

[59:51] Pamela Shandrow: Welcome back to Theatre Geeks Anonymous! We are doing a special crossover episode with Burton Miller from Creative Turn.

[1:00:21] Burton Miller: Thanks for having me! I'm excited to dive into some theater talk with you both.

[1:00:51] Ebony Vines: Absolutely! So, what shows have you seen recently, Burton?

[1:01:21] Burton Miller: I just saw a fantastic regional production of "Into the Woods." The performances were incredible, and they had a really unique take on the staging.

[1:01:51] Pamela Shandrow: That sounds amazing! I love when productions put their own spin on classic shows.

[1:02:11] Ebony Vines: Yes! I recently saw "Moulin Rouge!" on Broadway, and it was just as spectacular as I hoped it would be.

[1:02:41] Burton Miller: I've heard great things about that production! The music and choreography are supposed to be top-notch.

[1:03:01] Pamela Shandrow: They really are! The energy in the theater was electric. What about you, Burton? Any upcoming shows you're excited about?

[1:03:21] Burton Miller: I'm really looking forward to seeing "Six" when it comes to my area. I've heard such great buzz about it.

[1:03:41] Ebony Vines: "Six" is such a fun show! The music is catchy, and the concept is so fresh.

[1:04:01] Pamela Shandrow: It really is! I love how it reimagines history through a modern lens.

[1:04:21] Burton Miller: Exactly! It’s a great example of how theater can evolve and stay relevant.

[1:04:41] Ebony Vines: Speaking of evolution, how have you redefined success in your creative journey, Burton?

[1:05:01] Burton Miller: For me, success has shifted from external validation to personal fulfillment. It's about creating work that resonates with me and my audience.

[1:05:11] Pamela Shandrow: That’s such a healthy perspective. I think a lot of creatives struggle with that balance.

[1:05:21] Ebony Vines: Definitely. It’s easy to get caught up in what others think, but finding your own voice is so important.

[1:05:41] Burton Miller: Absolutely! I’ve learned that success can look different for everyone, and that’s okay.

[1:06:01] Pamela Shandrow: Yes! It’s all about the journey and the connections we make along the way.

[1:06:21] Ebony Vines: And the stories we tell. What has been a pivotal moment for you in your creative process, Burton?

[1:06:41] Burton Miller: I think one of my pivotal moments was when I decided to take a leap and produce my own work. It was terrifying but incredibly rewarding.

[1:07:01] Pamela Shandrow: That’s such a brave step! What did you learn from that experience?

[1:07:21] Burton Miller: I learned the importance of collaboration and surrounding myself with people who inspire me. It made all the difference.

[1:07:41] Ebony Vines: Collaboration is key! It can elevate a project in ways you never expected.

[1:08:01] Pamela Shandrow: For sure! And it’s also about supporting each other in the creative community.

[1:08:21] Burton Miller: Exactly! We all have unique perspectives to bring to the table.

[1:08:41] Ebony Vines: So true! What advice would you give to someone just starting out in their creative journey?

[1:09:01] Burton Miller: I would say to embrace the process and not be afraid to fail. Every misstep is a learning opportunity.

[1:09:31] Pamela Shandrow: That’s great advice! Failure can be such a powerful teacher.

[1:09:51] Ebony Vines: Yes! And it’s important to remember that everyone’s journey is different.

[1:10:11] Burton Miller: Absolutely! Celebrate your own milestones, no matter how small they may seem.

[1:10:31] Pamela Shandrow: Well said! It’s all about finding joy in what you do.

[1:10:51] Ebony Vines: And sharing that joy with others. Thank you for sharing your insights with us, Burton!

[1:11:11] Burton Miller: Thank you for having me! It’s been a pleasure chatting with you both.

[1:11:31] Pamela Shandrow: Likewise! We should do this again sometime.

[1:11:51] Ebony Vines: Definitely! Until next time, keep creating and supporting each other in the theater community.

[1:12:11] Burton Miller: Absolutely! Take care, everyone.

[1:12:31] Pamela Shandrow: Bye!

[1:12:51] Ebony Vines: Bye!

[1:13:11] ♪ Musical number ♪

[1:13:34] Burton Miller: Okay, so like for me when I because it's taken me a long time to get this one thing that I came to New York to do I had to think about like how I um how I identified like what I was most connected to because for so long it just felt like nothing was happening and I wouldn't feel successful or like it just really took a toll on how I saw myself my work and then like I said with my mom dying and everything and feeling like this question of like did I let her down by feeling like I didn't amount to anything before she was gone and about a year after she passed I was like okay we've got to reframe how we think about ourselves because we're identifying ourselves through the wrong lens and so when I did that which was like 10 years ago this year I decided the way that I had to identify myself and define myself was by who loves me and who I love and so I feel like if I am doing that well if I'm loving people well and if I'm loving myself well then that is how I am successful because those are the things that last and when I'm gone those are the people who are actually gonna miss me and like that's ultimately like my life's legacy is the love that's beautiful um very well said so that's that's how I am choosing to define success.

[1:16:20] Pamela Shandrow: Amen to that the metrics that matter that's right that's right absolutely community is everything that's right mm-hmm that's right um and then for projects listen I did mention so I will I will talk about that um I already talked about cold core very exciting uh I'm also on the board of a children's theater company called leaders by choice so if you are in the beacon New York area or if you live in North Carolina uh check out leaders by choice they have wonderful programs for kids and they also like do amazing uh productions each year so check them out leaders by choice and then the show that I am on is called wanted the legend of the sisters clark yes uh it is a musical that is loosely based on a true story um the woman who wrote the book angelica sherry when she was little her grandmother would take her through the family photo album and she's black and so when she was little like her grandmother would show her the album and there were these two white ladies in there she was like grandma why are these two white ladies in the family photo album and she's like they're not white they're black but they were white passing and they were outlaws and excuse me they were rewind repeat that we go back like how were they like what happened this was like all she was just like enamored with this story and who wouldn't be it's a fascinating course yeah your relatives that's my relatives two women they were twins and they were outlaws please tell me everything so the the way that the musical story goes is that these two women mary and martha clark this was their real names and their mother to lulu clark are all sharecroppers and they and they uh live on a farm in texas and the landowner tries to swindle them so they are trying to actually buy the farm from him he swindles them and says like they owe this huge debt and if they don't pay it then they'll be kicked off the land and so they decide that they will use this thing that have they've been told for you know so much of their life is terrible about them which is the fact that they are mixed race they they decide they will use this in order to get ahead and they will pass which if you don't know what passing is i encourage you to go watch the movie passing on netflix um there are plenty of books about it learn what this is because there are a lot of people um who did it and uh the woman who actually directed passing found out her grandfather had been passing and she didn't so that was like also highly illegal at the time if you were caught in the act it was not a good thing it was not good jim crow era jim crow was bad i know it's coming back it's bad it's still bad terrible um it's the second time yes even worse so um so they ultimately because of some things that happen on their travels when they're trying to like just find job at first they're just trying to find jobs as white ladies but some things happen on their travels and they end up becoming western gun-slinging robin hoods oh i can't wait talk about a winding path i'm telling you i'm telling you and so just like robin hood they'll take money from the poor and get or from the rich and give it to the poor and in this case it's mostly black white people they take it from the black folks amazing outlaw reparations that's right outlaw reparations it's like listen we're gonna get them some kind of way um so yeah so that will be fall 2026 crossing our coping that's coming up coming up it's coming up um if that changes you know you can follow me on at lucy lucy loves drama on social media and i'll let you know if that changes but as of right now we're it's fall 2026 yeah so excited yeah.

[1:20:44] Pamela Shandrow: We're gonna be there we're gonna be there and nick and i are gonna come to new york because i absolutely cannot wait to see the show and oh well can we also say that the ep is out yes yes so on any streaming platform um if you go uh and look up wanted again wanted colon the legend of the sisters clark there's an ep with five songs that you can do they're amazing are angelica sherry that's the woman who's a great aunt these are and ross bomb who is the composer it's amazing great show yay well our last question to close out the creative turn conversation is our um kind of our coda of what keeps your creativity going sometimes it dries up real quick fair enough if i'm being perfectly honest i think um because i was in a dry spell for a very long time and i think what finally kind of popped me out of it was just listening to that music again listening to the music that i did when i was in high school in junior high that created that spark in me to begin with and and really singing along with it and like just putting myself in that that place where ten-year-old pamela would would start the cassette tape because yes they were cassette tapes of it was two cassette tapes of lame is where i would play and then pause and write down the lyrics go back play names pause write down the lyrics go back and i did that for the entire show because it didn't have a libretto and i wanted to know what the words were so I could sing along with it but like that so I just loved i loved musical theater i love musical theater i love listening to those to those cast recordings and there is there is something so inspiring about going back to get going back and getting in touch with the things you loved when you were young because there's a purity that like you just don't have like the when you get older like is this cool is this not or whatever all these filters that we end up having absolutely that when you're a kid you just don't have if you like it you like it it's so true i wrote my brother reminded me last christmas of a moment where he was laughing about me listening to a soundtrack and i remember well i didn't remember he remembered he said you told me um don't make fun of me and my music because musical theater is my life and when you make fun of musical theater you make fun of me and he said that i said it just like that but i was like yeah i probably felt as indignant as that sound and that should be a bumper sticker that's right when you make fun of musical theater you make you make fun of me.

[1:25:00] Ebony Vines: Well what about for you ebony um i one of the things i will say is like you know one of the ways i love and i'm loved is i'm an auntie to 12 now and to see particularly the older ones uh love musical theater i'm very proud of that um we when i pick them up we sit in the car we listen to the whiz dear evan hansen they like high school musical but like the whiz is the i'm like so happy they and hamilton they freaking love hamilton which is my favorite show uh it's the best it's the best um and so that keeps me going because that child likeness of seeing them sing along and like love these things um and then also i have a creativity community the spark file that's run by susan blackwell and lauren camion um and those two women i call my fairy godmothers and they i part of the trajectory of my life changing is also due to my my friendship and knowing those two women so um that's another way that that i'm able to keep it going also i have to say my mentor also hunter bell oh my gosh oh my gosh hunter and how does that how does the mentorship help with your creativity so we met uh in 2021 we were thrown into a zoom together at this when we went to the spark file uh new year's creativity kickoff and it was like it still is like an accountability is what they call it but we've been accountability buddies for four years um and obviously like he knows way more about he's been writing longer than me he's older you know he's like a big brother type but um we meet on sundays usually via zoom sometimes in person and we go through like what creatively we're working on the things that we've slacked off on we encourage each other to get back into you know it's a very it's been really good for me especially like in the times when you start to like have those hopeless moments of like anything gonna change is anything gonna happen um and we're able to like encourage each other so I mean that's been so helpful and then I have great friends pamela is one of them like when i'm like i'm not gonna be anything nothing's ever gonna happen and they're like no we don't believe that you know so you really also have to surround yourself with people who believe in you because like like my friend v because like oh i'm i'm gonna make sure you're a broadway producer it's like and lo and behold yes and it's happening because of her you know so that's the thing that's the other thing is like who you surround yourself with again it goes back to who loves you who do you love yeah absolutely well i sincerely appreciate both of you being open to doing this together and i i loved getting to learn more about both of you and hearing all your stories really really appreciate it and that's that's it on my side.

[1:27:04] Burton Miller: Awesome so fun it was really fun to talk with you burton i think this is a fantastic episode it's going to be super fun for all of our listeners yes i mean as always we say like thank you friends so much for listening we're so happy to have you yes.

[1:27:25] Pamela Shandrow: We will be back next time burton say the name of your podcast again and again my mine is creative churn and pamela and ebony are theater geeks anonymous and this has been our crossover episode our crossover episode yay thank you for listening bye bye everybody.

[1:27:42] Ebony Vines: Bye thank you for listening to our podcast theater geeks anonymous you can follow us on instagram and twitter at tga and on facebook at theater geeks anonymous don't forget to rate review and subscribe to the theater geeks anonymous podcast on the broadway podcast network and all your favorite podcast listening apps your intermission sode has now concluded shut up sit down and turn off your cell phones or we'll tell patty lapone.