This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:18] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Catastrophe. I'm your host Mike Abrams and today we have another great guest who I know is passionate about Cats because I have seen it firsthand. While he's never been in the show, at least to my knowledge, you'll definitely recognize him from his work on Broadway in Be More Chill and Dear Evan Hansen or on TV in Showtime's Billions. So welcome, Will Roland, and thank you for joining me.

[0:40] Will Roland: Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[0:42] Mike Abrams: I'm excited to have you on because we were at BroadwayCon and I was on doing a live episode and then you came on Broadwaysted, wonderful friends of Broadwaysted, and you went through a monologue of Cats.

[0:56] Will Roland: Oh yeah.

[0:57] Mike Abrams: And I'm excited to have you on to talk about that.

[0:59] Will Roland: Hardcore.

[1:00] Mike Abrams: So let's start. Yeah, happy to. I mean, I still rarely get to.

[1:02] Will Roland: So let's start with your history. When did you first see it? Was it your introduction as a young child? When was Cats introduced to your life?

[1:08] Will Roland: Okay, so I brought a little show and tell today, a podcast. So show and tell is a great format. But I have here from the original production of Cats at the Winter Garden Theater, I have my playbill from when I saw Cats. So I believe that I saw it in fourth grade, which would be like 1999, maybe 1998. I went with one of my parents. I distinctly remember we sat like on the aisle in the orchestra. We had like the full-blown cat crawling over you experience. And it rocks. And I remember I got this, they sold this CD that I've yet to figure out what this CD is. It's like a vocal selections CD. So, you know, like you can get the full vocal score and you can get like vocal selections from a show, which is like, you know, just the hits.

And this was like a CD that is not, it's not the original Broadway cast recording. This is not what I purchased in the lobby. It is some amalgam of like, I have like some London versions of songs and like some Broadway versions of songs that are like in my head, like the right ones. I don't know what this CD is. I'm like, it's one of the great mysteries of my life.

[2:24] Mike Abrams: Did you get like a bootleg? This like Strange Cats CD?

[2:28] Will Roland: No, I mean, maybe we like bought a bootleg on the street. I don't think so. This is like pre-CD burners. This is like, we definitely got this on the way out. I got the big souvenir program. It was like, we really, my parents balled out for me that day.

[2:39] Mike Abrams: I love it. It's not like a cast album, which is, you know, what you expect to get. I feel like you actually didn't get in the theater. I think you bought the souvenir stuff and then you got to the guys with the little taxi cabs on the outside. And one of them just had this like handmade, self-recorded on a cassette tape from a, like one of those boom boxes that has all the different versions. I like that idea too. It's like, yeah, I grew up on a bootleg Cats recording.

[3:04] Will Roland: Amazing. So fourth grade, what did you remember? Like, what did you pick up on the show? Cause that's young for a very dark plot that I'm assuming, you know, at this point.

[3:13] Will Roland: I mean, I am now really intimately acquainted with the plot. I, and you know, I've always, I've always found the plot. I don't know. It's, it's simple. We can get, we can get into the nitty gritty of the plot. But what I remember from, uh, you know, in being in fourth grade, seeing Cats, um, I remember, I remember the, the scenic design. It was incredible. I mean, the thing that they did with that original production and, you know, and this probably felt even bigger to me as like a little boy. Uh, but there were like the set just sort of like spilled out into the orchestra. And so there was all sorts of like junk and trash that sort of like went up the sides of the house up into the mezzanine level, which they actually like the set was sort of a fairly, uh, you know, the 2016 production that you saw, it was like a fairly similar, I don't know if it was like a, an exact replica of the original set, but it was definitely like the same thing for the most part. Um, the exception being that 2016 production was at the Neil Simon. Is that right?

[4:06] Mike Abrams: Neil Simon. Yep. Much smaller space.

[4:11] Will Roland: So at the Winter Garden, it was like this gargantuan like trash mountain that they had built. Um, so I remember the trash mountain very distinctly. I remember during, you know, during the overture and the, you know, in the, in the naming of cats, like, uh, you know, sort of being climbed over by spandex riddled, you know, Broadway folks. Um, and, uh, and what else are my, I, I, that's what I remember. And, and then I had the, I had the, the infamous VHS, the, like, as far as I'm concerned, the only true recorded production of Cats.

[4:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Then the 1998 movie, which is where most of the lure I think comes from is that that's a lot of people's introduction to the show. If you weren't in New York and couldn't go see it over the years or the many productions, it's an incredible, true pro shot. It's so good. It's got, I mean, it's got effects. It's got like lightning and stuff. It's so cool.

[4:55] Will Roland: Yeah. Yeah. They, they pushed the edge of CGI back in the day compared to the new movie. It was amazing. It looked, yeah. I mean, it looks like, uh, you know, they're like, it almost looks like aesthetically, it almost looks like the dark crystal, like all the cats kind of look like Muppets. And then there's like weird, like rotoscoped effects on top of it. It's amazing. I do. I've seen it the first time I saw it on a plane, which was definitely an experience because everyone's looking at me and then I've watched, it's the clips that are on YouTube. So if you really watch anything on YouTube, that's, that's what you're going to see.

[5:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Um, so that's how I learned a lot for the show was from, you know, that, that movie, that 1998 movie. It's so good. It's really, really great. So, okay. So at this point, fourth grade, all of this has gone over your head. You know, it's just singing, dancing, cool set, you know, a lot of like unique stuff, but you're not noticing that the ball's an orgy. You're not noticing that, you know, the Victoria's hat, you know, having sex on stage. None of this is, this is all going over your head.

[5:48] Will Roland: Right over my head. Did you pick any of that? Like when did you learn that stuff?

[5:52] Will Roland: Um, I think I was in high school or college. I sort of had like a, I had, um, I had a moment, like a sort of phase in middle school and high school where I became too cool for like stuff that I love now. I was like, I, I'm very like sad that I never saw like the original production of drowsy chaperone, which is like absolutely would be my absolute favorite thing to see in a theater now. Um, but I like when I was whatever, 16 or whatever, I was like, musicals are cool. Um, and so I had this sort of like Renaissance of loving some of my formative musical experiences, uh, when I was like graduating high school, starting college. And that was when I sort of like went back and I was like, wait a second.

I really like listened to Cats and really like watch some of those videos. And I'm like, wait a second, this show rocks. Um, and, and, and I've also, I have always been a person who pushes back on people who are like, Cats is bad. And I was like, what does that even, how, what does that even mean? Also like, I don't know, tell that to the 10 million people who saw that original production.

[6:56] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I've asked a lot of people who don't like Cats because my goal is early on in this podcast and we're 90 episodes in was to find someone who could give me an articulate reason of why they don't like it. And everybody that says they don't like it just goes, Nope, just not my cup of tea. Right. I just didn't get it. And I'm like, yeah, nobody gets it. That's part of the point. The one that drives me crazy is people say it doesn't make sense. And I'm like, it makes perfect sense. It's in fact, one of the simplest stories ever told on a Broadway stage. We need to decide who's going to heaven. So we're going to have a talent show. It is actually the simplest plot possible.

[7:33] Will Roland: I, yeah, I'm, I'm still waiting. Everybody that always says that I pressed it and I'm always, it's my number one question and I've never gotten a good answer. Um, and so one day I'm going to find somebody with an articulate answer and they're going to be an episode to be, to counter the 90 plus of fans. I mean, I can tell you why I didn't like that very bad movie, but that's a different, you know, that's a, that's a, that's a different ball of wax.

[7:55] Mike Abrams: Totally different, different story. I mean, we can get into the new movie. I'm curious when you saw it, like how early did you see it, like right around Christmas, right when it came out?

[8:04] Will Roland: Oh yeah. I saw it twice in theaters. I saw it twice because the first time I went, uh, I was annoyed because there were like people who had gone to like, cause they heard it was so bad. And they were like, yeah, sort of just, they were, they were like, they were just annoyingly loud at the movie theater. And I was like, this sucks. Like, come on, I'm here to see this gigantor show. And they were laughing at like, it was like, they heard it was bad and then they were laughing at stuff that actually wasn't bad, but they just like had been given permission to think they didn't like it. Like they were laughing like anytime anyone danced. And I was like, it's a musical, it's Cats. Like people are going to dance the whole time.

And like the dancing is actually quite good. Like the dancing is one of the strengths of this very strange movie. And then by the end, like people were just like talking during, uh, like during Gus's song. And I was like, no, this is like, this is actually good. Um, so I went again, I went to the Alamo draft house to a rowdy screening, which I thought would be theater fans laughing at the stuff that was bad. But then it turned into like a bunch of like amateur comedians, like practicing their type five, like in the back of the house, like again, heckling the theater cat. And I'm like, for God's sake, shut up for the like little kernels of this movie that are good. Like, let us enjoy them. And then let's all make fun of like when Jason Derulo gets covered in milk or like whenever Rebel Wilson or James Corden do anything. Cause they were very bad at that movie. Don't tell them I said that.

[9:23] Mike Abrams: I, so I think you need, you like, you miss, they've all disassociated themselves from this movie anyways. I think you missed it by like a week. You missed it by a week. I think if you would have went the first week, the first week, you got a unique experience because you got the wrong, you got the unfinished show. And so the very first week you got the unfinished show, which is what I saw, um, which was crazy. Cause it was clearly had some parts where I'm like, this doesn't look done. And then it also had, I saw press viewing. So it's like, it should be a group not laughing. And there were, they were at least laughing at the appropriate parts to laugh, um, where it was like, oh, this is ridiculous. Um, but then, then it got to the point where it's like, to your, like, like you mentioned, everybody went to just go laugh at it, whether they have any idea of the source material or not. And, but a couple of people I talked to, it depends on where you went.

[10:12] Will Roland: Totally. I, what I enjoyed is talking to people in like the Midwest who went by basically ended up in theaters by themselves because like at that point they were like, the hecklers were gone and they were like, I went and I was sitting there with two other people and we had a blast because it was like, you know, they were just them there watching it. But they were also fans of the musical, knew what they were going to see. And like, we're excited about it.

[10:33] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, I, I think, uh, there was some interview I I've never, I've read it once and I haven't been able to find it where Tom Hooper, like basically sort of like confessed to being like a, like a pervert for Cats. Like he sort of was like, oh, it was a real sexual awakening for me. And I'm just like, and he like infused all of his like weird repressed. I mean, like, well, like you said, the show is fucked up. It's got a lot of like weird sexual stuff that's baked in there, but he, he like really leaned into it and they added this like weird romance plot. And I was like, this is not what this is about, you know? And again, like Jason Theroux covered in milk. Like this was not, uh, nope. Wrong.

[11:15] Will Roland: I love it. I didn't know Tom Hooper was a furry. I didn't know that that was, he's part of, that's part of it. That makes a lot more sense. I always just thought he had an Andrew Lloyd Webber session. Cause didn't he do Les Mis?

[11:24] Mike Abrams: He did. That's not Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[11:26] Will Roland: So I think he,

[11:30] Mike Abrams: Oh, okay. It shows how much I know about Broadway.

[11:36] Will Roland: Yeah. Okay. Nevermind. He's just a broad, he's just a Broadway fan. Um, cause I was, I think that the joke is, is like, what else is he going to make next? Like what movie does he want to butcher next? Although I didn't think Les Mis was that bad, but I don't know Les Mis well enough to like have true opinions on the movie. I just remember it was long. That was my only great thing I saw in the movie. Not even in theaters.

[11:48] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So, okay. Well now I'm embarrassed. We're not going to cut that out though. Cause I don't know anything about Broadway besides Cats.

[11:57] Will Roland: So, um, I love it. So, so how many times have you seen Cats on stage since? Is it just fourth grade?

[12:06] Will Roland: No, I saw the 2016 revival.

[12:10] Mike Abrams: Okay. When did you go? Did you see Leona Lewis or did you see Mamie?

[12:12] Will Roland: I saw Mamie.

[12:13] Mike Abrams: Okay. Great. So you saw it after, after the, after the beginning.

[12:18] Will Roland: Oh, I saw Leona Lewis, but Mamie Harris is a treasure.

[12:22] Mike Abrams: I'm not going to say that. Cause I send Leona Lewis a message about once a month, trying to get her to come on here. So I'm not going to say anything about the performance.

[12:26] Will Roland: If you do, don't, uh, don't quote her. Uh, when I say that, uh, Mamie Harris is, is a national treasure. Uh, and I think she's incredible. And I loved that. Like everyone sort of was gagged over her production in that, you know, her performance, because it was amazing. I remember I saw it and I remember going, not knowing, you know, again, still super early and living in New York, not knowing anybody. And then seeing her belt memory being like, oh my God, who's singing this? This is unbelievable. So yes, it is. And then I think, you know, there's a couple on YouTube you can find of her performance. It's just unreal. And I mean, you know, and she did it at like events too. And it was like, I think I had actually, I think I had actually seen her. I know it was afterwards. I saw her do it at like a, like a gala or something. And I was like, she does it every time.

[13:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I want to go to, I want to hear the, when you were on Broadway City, you talked about the career arc that you can have. And I just remember it was, Andrew and Leslie sitting next to you, I think on each side, or maybe like. You had to choose a show to have your entire career inside of. And I was like, oh, you do Cats. There's a million great roles. You sing, you sing great music for the rest of your life. I was sitting in the back, like yelling.

[13:34] Will Roland: This is next. This is next. But I was mesmerized by Leslie's face because she just looked like, what are you talking about? Yeah, she thought that I had disassociated and gone into a trance. It was as if I was speaking in tongues next to her. She'd never seen anything like it. Yeah, so you've thought about this. What is that career arc? And you know, you can hear the whole funny back and forth on Broadway too, but I'd love to hear what your path is. I mean, there's a whole crop of young cats. There's a whole crop of youngsters and you could just like, bang, bang, bang, bang, do all of those. And now again, there's like this sort of situation where one of the problems with an acting career is that you, it breaks your brain.

Because when you start out looking at theater and like dream roles and things like that, you just like see the role and you're like, that's the role I like. But then when you like try to make an acting career, you're like, oh, but I can't tap, you know, or like whatever. So like, you know, so like right off the bat, like, you know, you start with Victoria, you know, you start, that's the like, the cream, you are the person about whom this is all being presented. You're the audience, basically. You work through all those youngsters. You can do a Rum Tum Tugger. You could play Mr. Mistoffelees seven different times in the course of your life because the Mr. Mistoffelees on Broadway ranged from like 22 to 45 years old.

So like you can do, you can just keep popping in and out of that the whole time. But yeah, you can do like, you know, you could do Elektra and Demeter. You could do like, you know, all that. You could do Jenny Antidots. That's another one you could do twice. But you can do a bunch of young cats. Then you do, then there's like the middle-aged cats who are the like, the Bustopher Joneses, the Skimbleshankses, the Macavities. They're all like, you know, they're middle-aged. They're not quite over the hill yet. And then there's like the elderly cats. There's Grizabella. There's old Deuteronomy. There's Gus. You know, and then it's just like, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. You do all these great cats.

Did I miss anybody? You can play, oh, I love Jerry Rumpelteaser. That's fun. You can do that on opposite nights with your best friends. Yeah. I think the other, I mean, you covered the key ones. I think you've got Monkish Trap if you want to narrate one time. You've got Jellylorum with Gus. It is interesting because Bustopher Jones, Gus, and then I think it's Peter in 2016 are all the same cat. So just in itself, you play three different ages in one night. Yeah, which I think is, I think that's lazy. I think Bustopher Jones should be the, I mean, or rather, I think Gus should be like the ultimate princess track. I think like, it should be like, you should get the greatest actor around who's like old and beloved.

You should put them above the title. And you should be like, so-and-so in cats as Gus. Like, it should be, you should get single line billing. It should not be like somebody pulling out, like, put an old man makeup on. Gus should have pathos. I love it. So that's such an interesting idea. Because right now, Gus has like a pretty rigorous track with the dance and the ensemble in the beginning. And then Bustopher Jones is one number to then completely remake up, redress. You're saying stunt cast it almost like Chicago or like some of these other ones. I love that idea. Who would you stunt cast first? Who would I stunt cast first? At this moment, I would see if like Christopher Lloyd wanted to do it.

Or if, let's see, who are some great, like, I would see if like maybe Martin Sheen wanted to come in and do it. Martin Sheen. That would be a Gus I would love to see. Right? Who are some other like great national treasures? Like maybe, who's, I was talking about somebody yesterday being so old. Oh, like what if Harrison Ford wanted to come in and be Gus? You know, like that would be, you know, Harrison Ford. Yeah, I don't know. All kinds of great people. You know, you get some great Brits in there. You could get, you know, Ian McKellen, obviously, get like maybe Patrick Stewart comes in. They don't need to really like sing. Yeah, that's true. It is very much kind of like a reading line. You know, they're, they're, they're not.

It's telling, it's an old man telling stories, which in the 98 movie, they did that. Um, and I forget his name. He was knighted, but he was blind. He was like 90 when they did it. He did not do Bustopher Jones. They brought him in. They walked him on stage, like gently held his hand, walked him on stage and he sang and then he went off. It's beautiful. So there's precedent for you. Yeah, I want to do, yeah, my production would be like unsustainable because it would have like too many people and too much stuff. Uh, but, but it would be like, it would be like a, a, a modern retelling of that 98 recorded version. Tell me, okay, wait, walk me through that. What does that look like? It would just be like, so, uh, the whole production would be, it would look like the most expensive thing you've ever seen in your life.

It was just every single thing like would move and light up and it would be, there'd be magic, you know, it would be like a, like a Harry Potter scale production. Um, in my, my version of cats and it would have like a million people in it. No one would double. There'd be like zillions of cats. There'd be too many cats to have them all on the stage. So you would always have cats in the audience, cats in the aisles, things like that. Like you would have a cast of like 65. Um, I love, I love that. Cause I do think one of the things that like really impresses me, especially talking like the swings is they're on stage like the entire show. Like they don't get, they get a break maybe during Mungo Jerry and Ripple teaser, maybe, but they go from the ball to like, Grizabella gets 15 minutes on stage and the rest of them are on there almost the entire time.

Yes. In the original production, they did it on a rake that was later deemed to be illegal. Like you can't, you cannot build a rake like that anymore. Equity simply won't allow it because too many people got hurt doing casts. Yeah. I didn't know that that was a thing until I started interviewing people to show. And then that just made it again, 10 times, even more impressive of like, wait, you're doing this on an incline too. Illegal rake. My, my friend, Garrett, when she auditioned for the original production, was auditioning for Jenny Antidotes, I believe. And she said she like lost her footing at one point while she was tapping. She just tumbled all the way down the stage. She was like, you can't stop yourself. You're just rolling. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[20:31] Mike Abrams: I want to switch gears a little bit because one of my favorite things to do is to compare cats to other source material. So TV shows, other musicals, and I thought Billions and your work on Billions as Winston, I thought there was a lot here to work with. And I'm a fan of the show. So I was excited when I saw you pop up in, I think it was season three. I was like, oh, there's Will. I was like, that was really, really cool. Because I had just seen you, I think on Broadway and love the show. So let's compare some of the main characters to cats and who we think they would be. And I've thought about this a little bit, but I'm putting you on the spot. All right. So let's start with Chuck Rhoades.

[21:07] Will Roland: All right. So let's see if I... Chuck Rhoades, I think Chuck Rhoades is either... He's either old Deuteronomy or he's Buster Jones.

[21:18] Mike Abrams: Okay. Give me a little bit of reason. I had him as MonkaS Trap and I can give my rationale why.

[21:22] Will Roland: Oh, you have him as MonkaS Trap. Okay. I understand that. Is it because of his loquaciousness, his narratorial proclivities?

[21:30] Mike Abrams: A little bit of narrative, but I also see MonkaS Trap being second in line, giving me a little bit of the submissive of, I'm just waiting my turn. I'm following orders. And he's got his whole BDSM fetish that goes through the whole show.

[21:42] Will Roland: Right. So that's where I was taking my thought for it.

[21:47] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[21:47] Will Roland: I mean, that's a good... I also think Skimbleshanks is a sub. So Chuck could also be Skimbleshanks by that logic.

[21:53] Mike Abrams: Oh my God. A hundred percent. All right. Tell me more before we keep going.

[21:56] Will Roland: Not at work. At work, Skimbleshanks is so type A. He's the most fastidious, like, the trains are late. But at home, Skimbleshanks is absolutely getting tied up.

[22:08] Mike Abrams: I don't think I've ever thought about that.

[22:10] Will Roland: So I'm now trying to think back.

[22:13] Mike Abrams: Oh, you haven't thought about Skimbleshanks sex life at home?

[22:15] Will Roland: No, no. There's a lot of sex life thought in the show. So that's why I'm like, I have...

[22:21] Mike Abrams: You've thought a lot about who's with who and who might be doing what with which cat.

[22:26] Will Roland: But Skimbleshanks is one that just hasn't come up. He seems like the uncle, fun uncle. Although someone got mad at me for calling him the creepy uncle. So maybe that does fit.

[22:34] Mike Abrams: No, he's not. He's not the creepy uncle. He is the fun uncle.

[22:39] Will Roland: He's also, I mean, yeah, I don't know. Skimbleshanks is... I mean, I love Skimbleshanks. If I could dance like that, I'd play Skimbleshanks for the rest of my life.

[22:48] Mike Abrams: I love it. Okay. Bobby Axelrod.

[22:51] Will Roland: Bobby Axelrod. I mean, like, he gives me, like, low-key Macavity vibes because he's like a criminal. But he also gives you, like, rum-tum-tugger charisma.

[23:01] Mike Abrams: Spot on. I had him as Macavity. I just thought, like, you know, there's a little bit of crime boss.

[23:07] Will Roland: Yeah, Macavity Sunsign with rum-tum-tugger rising. You got to do these, like, yeah, you got to do them like horoscopes.

[23:14] Mike Abrams: Exactly.

[23:16] Will Roland: I do have cats astrology signs. It's on the Wikipedia fan page. Each one has been deemed an astrology sign, which is strange that somebody spent the time to put each one of them on a Wikipedia page.

[23:27] Mike Abrams: Well, you know, I've learned anything about Wikipedia. It's that people really take a lot of time to do stuff like that.

[23:35] Will Roland: Exactly.

[23:36] Mike Abrams: Wendy Rhodes.

[23:37] Will Roland: Wendy. I mean, Wendy's Grizabella. Wendy's our leading lady. She's our, you know, she's not old, but she is our, I mean, like, Wendy Rhodes. And I think the thing for me is I associate it too much with the power of the actor. So, Grizabella, to me, is a Betty Buckley or a Mamie Parris. And to me, you know, that is, like, it is about the actor's presence, you know?

[24:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I definitely see that. I actually, I had her as Jenny for the same way of, like, you know, a motherly, but also whipping the mice into shape type of thing. Like, I saw some of that power dynamics.

[24:15] Will Roland: But I do see Grizabella from that. I think Maggie Siff is singing our 11 o'clock number on Billions.

[24:23] Mike Abrams: So, that's the problem with me, is I always view these things too much through an actor lens. And I'm always like, oh, who plays that person? And that's how I'm like, do it, like, you know, like, Giamatti plays your old dude around.

[24:35] Will Roland: Oh, Giamatti would be a great Gus stunt cast.

[24:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, very true. Oh, my God. Paul Giamatti as Asparagus? Sign me up.

[24:44] Will Roland: I love it. I love it.

[24:47] Mike Abrams: What about Wags?

[24:48] Will Roland: Wags is Mr. Misopheles. He's got that mischievous trickster energy.

[24:54] Mike Abrams: And there's a lot of trickster energy in the show, I guess. He could also be both Mungle Jerry and Rumpelteaser.

[24:59] Will Roland: I think we're thinking the same way.

[25:01] Mike Abrams: I went with Bustopher Jones because I just saw him being a little bit of, like, in the crime family and similar kind of, like, just demeanor and body type.

[25:10] Will Roland: But the Misopheles makes a ton of sense.

[25:12] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I mean, he's a mercurial trickster character, which I suppose Bustopher Jones is as well.

[25:18] Will Roland: Problem with Bustopher Jones is, I'm just going to say this. I think Bustopher Jones is sort of a throwaway cat. I think I could just, like, toss Bustopher Jones from the show. That's my controversial opinion.

[25:25] Mike Abrams: So it's not that controversial because he is cut from the 90-minute Royal Caribbean cruise.

[25:31] Will Roland: So he's the first.

[25:31] Mike Abrams: He was the first. I mean, it's the kind of number that you put in a show to, like, cover somebody's quick change.

[25:37] Will Roland: Yeah, I completely.

[25:39] Mike Abrams: I do think it's a little bit of awesome. Also, like, his whole personality is he's fat. That's like his entire in a show where I am not one to criticize the writing. I'm like, that's it? That's all you got for BJ?

[25:47] Will Roland: Rich and eats.

[25:52] Mike Abrams: That's it. He's a pimp. We don't know anything else about Brevity.

[25:53] Will Roland: He eats and fat. Like, they make that the same thing. And I'm like, this is not a character.

[25:58] Mike Abrams: This is not even, like, being fat is not a personality. Everyone else is like, I'm a cat who does magic. I'm a cat who's like an old wizard priest. I'm a train's cat. And it's like, I'm fat. That's like, that's not a personality.

[26:09] Will Roland: I have written a lot more backstory to Bustopher Jones than I think is really there. I think he's the money in the actual, like, funding behind Macavity's crime ring.

[26:20] Mike Abrams: I mean, like, yeah, that's probably true.

[26:22] Will Roland: But I mean, there's only so much, like, sort of subtext we can.

[26:26] Mike Abrams: I think one of the things you must do with this show is take it at face value. And I think, like, I try not to get too deep into the what else is going on.

[26:34] Will Roland: I think what's happening is what's happening. And that's why it's so good.

[26:38] Mike Abrams: Okay, that's because that's interesting, because that's what has led to this podcast going so much deeper is because originally I was like, oh, let's just talk a little bit about the cats. But at face value, it is what it is. But it's when you dig behind the scenes of, like, why did Grizabella leave? Why is she chosen? Why is this here? Then it becomes fascinating.

[26:58] Will Roland: I suppose you're right.

[27:00] Mike Abrams: Okay, let's do two more.

[27:02] Will Roland: Yeah, I'm just a simple man.

[27:07] Will Roland: I love it. Well, I'm doing Suncast Guts. Yeah, I'm not doing like Gutter and Dancing Mike took us off. I'm like, I'm sitting in my dressing room thinking about my career in life for two hours, and then someone's going to say, Mr. Roland, they're ready for you. And I'm going to walk down to the stage and do the second half of my song after intermission. And then you come in for eight minutes on stage. Yeah. Yeah. And ideally, it's the thing that makes people makes me cry. It's emotional. It's an emotional song. This is good for my last question. Who are your favorite and least favorite characters in Cats?

[28:39] Mike Abrams: Oh, favorite and least favorite characters.

[28:40] Will Roland: I think I've Jones is my super Jones. He's got to go. And then the thing is, I keep talking about Gus. I love Gus. I'm fixated on Gus. But I love Skimbleshanks. I love Skimbleshanks. OK, I love Skimbleshanks. So I think he's a wild, fastidious, high-strung nut. And I do think also I think that's maybe my in the show, which is part of the like it's my favorite. Like if I'm feeling blue, I might put on Skimbleshanks, the railway cat and Bob, my Haitian. I love it. That was my next question.

[29:01] Mike Abrams: But I also just you've definitely thought more about Skimbleshanks outside of the train than I think most people, if you're thinking about him being tied up sexually, you know, when he's when he's home.

[29:10] Will Roland: I mean, that's what I think about Skimbleshanks being tied up sexually. But I'm saying, like, if you ask me, I know the answer because I know Skimbleshanks as a person. And Skimbleshanks is like, I'm so type A at work. I'm always running things. I'm always the boss. And when I go home, like Skimbleshanks wants to be told what to do in all other aspects of his life. So you could ask me, like, you know, what is Skimbleshanks order a dinner? Skimbleshanks has what you're having. Like Skimbleshanks is just absolutely doesn't want to make a decision, doesn't want to be in charge of anything outside of his very high-stress job.

[30:04] Mike Abrams: I love it. So I did not mean to accuse you of being Tom Hooper with your fixation on Skimbleshanks.

[30:10] Will Roland: I'm not some cats pervert because I know I just understand the personality of this character and therefore can answer all these hypothetical questions. Where did Skimbleshanks go to school? Skimbleshanks went to a really high-pressure elite boarding school that really messed him up and is really like, so now he just feels like he has to grip everything and just wants to wants to release at all times.

[30:31] Mike Abrams: Are you familiar with Cat's Tumblr?

[30:34] Will Roland: No, and I don't. Primed for it. So Cat's Tumblr, which I learned about early, is there's a group of fans and it's I thought it was going to be very different. It's way more wholesome than what I was expecting it to be, because I did get briefed on this from someone who's deep in it. I find a lot of the Tumblr Broadway fandoms to be very wholesome. But they go through and they have created their own characters or they answer and portray as the cat. So they put them in like normal human-ish situations and then they have the interactions with each other. So I feel like you are primed to do this for Skimbleshanks.

[31:12] Mike Abrams: I mean, maybe. Yeah, just expand a universe. Skimbleshanks, you know, Skimbleshanks goes to the grocery store. Yeah, I mean, Skimbleshanks is upset because this time of year like I think you could with every current topic, you could have a Skimbleshanks opinion. Skimbleshanks is going up and he needs to find a new neighborhood to live in, and all he cares about is the commute time and the reliability of the train. The pounds crashing. So let's Skimbleshanks do this. Skimbleshanks is sitting around saying Bank of England is doing buying back bonds. Yeah, that's what Skimbleshanks is doing. But he doesn't like to talk about politics at home, but he has opinions. That's that feels that feels right.

[32:06] Will Roland: OK, coming back a little bit to billions. If one cat was working at a hedge fund, which cat do you think would be best in the hedge fund world at Axe Capital?

[32:15] Will Roland: At Axe Capital, I mean, that's probably Macavity. Macavity's got big like, you know, Vichy. I almost, I'm calling out his character. He gave me Tugger vibes too, just over the top, confident. I love it. OK, final question. This is the million dollar question is this whole podcast is centered around that I don't think Grizabella is the right Jellicle choice. And so I am curious who you if you're old Deuteronomy, who are you picking to go to the Heaviside lair and why?

[32:45] Will Roland: I'm picking to go to the Heaviside. This is such a hard decision. It's a hard decision because I think the show sets you up to sympathize with Grizabella of my sort of broken brain like, oh, we like we got to send Gus to the Heaviside lair. He's ready to be reborn as a new young actor. Yeah, I don't know, I think Grizabella is the Jellicle choice.

[33:10] Mike Abrams: Oh, that's a that's a that's a deep question.

[33:12] Will Roland: I think Grizabella is the wrong choice.

[33:14] Mike Abrams: You must think there is a better choice.

[33:16] Will Roland: Well, it depends on how you analyze the show. So that's that's that's where I'll start. I think if you look at it from a singing competition, which is where my first first time I saw it, my joke was I saw Leona Lewis. I saw the X Factor on drugs. And so I thought, who am I going to combine? Because that's what they do. Fifth Harmony, One Direction. So I wanted Tugger and Mistoffelees together. Those are my favorite performances. I think Skimbleshanks could get in there. But I was scarred by Skimbleshanks because the light hit me in the face and I was blinded for about like 30 seconds. So I have a lot more hate towards Skimbleshanks than I know roots from that experience. They killed the whole train. That's the best number in the show.

[34:01] Mike Abrams: I know. I know. But the one light was pointed directly at me. The best number in the show. You need to reform this opinion.

[34:10] Will Roland: I got it. I got it. I got to keep seeing it so I can be like and sit the other side of the theater so I don't get hit. But so I think that. But if I really like if I'm putting a thoughtful brain on, I do think like the whole arc is Grizabella's coming back to be with her family. And I find it weird that you're just going to murder her instead of letting her have a year with her family. So I do think that the logical answer is Gus. Yeah. Yeah. It's time for him to go to the Heaviside Lair. If you I've never understood why old Deuteronomy can't go himself.

[35:01] Mike Abrams: Well, that's a good question. When is it his turn? And like if you're a monk and you're waiting, I know he has to make the choice. Yeah, right. Is he some sort of like has he entered into some religious order that like absolves him of the you know, he's like he's like a cat shaman. And he's like, I can't actually undergo the right myself because I have to administer it to others. I mean, it's a sacred duty, I understand. But I think like he deserves it. They very much a spiritual leader to these cats. They make it seem like monk is in line, though. So that means that there'll be a moment where he takes over. And so when is that? I do love the conspiracy theory that old Deuteronomy is a serial killer and this is his way to hide it, which is fine. She went to the Heaviside Lair.

[36:01] Will Roland: Oh, my God. But here's here's what I'm sticking with you on this, though. So you're picking Grizabella. If you stunt cast Paul Giamatti and you have him go out there and you don't pick him, you think he's coming back on the night? That's what I'm saying. Well, but you also but you're also a stunt cast. Grizabella for many, many years. They're just, you know, this is true. Didn't quite do it with Gus. So, you know, you are sending Betty the Heaviside Lair. She definitely won their talent show. That is is fair, which again goes back to what's your first introduction to the source material? And mine was Leona Lewis.

[36:42] Will Roland: Which is different than I see. Wait, let's let's look at my little let's look at my little thing is who did I see as Grizabella, the glamour? It would have been like Liz Calloway could have been. I'm trying to think of what time you were there. I saw Linda Balgore.

[36:58] Mike Abrams: Don't know, Linda.

[36:59] Will Roland: Do they're waiting for? I mean, again, I was wow. OK, got it. She oh, shame on me. Shame on me for not for not knowing Linda Balgore. Listen to this. I mean, she's been she was in two national tours. She was Norma Desmond on the first national tour of Sunset Boulevard. She was also in. Oh, my God, she was in the fix. I love the fix. Weird musical. So you should know this.

[37:30] Mike Abrams: I shouldn't. I thought did Les Mis. So this is your loss, not mine.

[37:34] Will Roland: Yeah, that's true. That's that's the kind of stuff I know. Wait, but I did see crazy. Listen to this. Listen to this. So I saw I saw I could tell you that right here as Mr. Mistoffelees. Let is stir. Where is he? Mistoffelees? No, Jacob Brent. Tell you that he's one of these guys was original, I think, right?

[37:58] Mike Abrams: Really?

[37:59] Will Roland: I think he was. He's also let's find out. He's also been heavily involved with a lot of the productions after. Oh, he played Mr. Resell with cats. Well, on video, 90. OK, so it's the 98 movie. There you go. That's what that's what it was. Not the first. He played the role when the company broke the record for longest running Broadway show. He was in the original Las Vegas company of Starlight Express. Yeah. So I saw a great Mr. Mistoffelees, which probably had which probably had a huge effect on my like enjoyment of the show. This this era that you went to is probably the least covered I've been. I've got talked to a lot of 2016, a lot of current tour and a lot of the early like the national tour three, which is like right around the original Broadway.

But this like 90s era is a group that I have not broken into very much. So this is a group I want to I need to talk. Chris Gatelli. Chris Gatelli was pounceable in this production. And I saw. Yes, I saw Selena Carvajal, now known as Lena Hall. Wow. Selena Carvajal was. And she's on. Oh yes. Isn't Lena Hall. Didn't she just join? What did she just join? She just joined a little shop in New York, I think.

[39:00] Mike Abrams: Is she playing? Is she playing? I'm almost positive she's joining. Yeah, like that got announced a couple of weeks ago. I think she's quite good. I'd love to go see her do that.

[39:10] Will Roland: So I got to go see. I love it. This has been so fun talking. This has been great. I apologize to the cat about that. How can people stay in touch with things you're working on? Social media keep up with everything you're doing.

[39:20] Will Roland: I they can follow me on Instagram, which I don't use. They can follow me on Twitter, which I basically only use to tweet about housing reform. They can catch me on seasons three, four, five and six of billions. I think hopefully season seven. We'll see. Wow. And besides that, I don't know. That's that's where you can find me. But I tweet about stuff. My Instagram is is it's got underscores. So it's actually underscore will underscore Roland. And my my Twitter is will underscore Roland. And yeah, yeah, it's just empty, empty space. They follow me on those platforms. They are guaranteed to not get what they signed up for.

[40:01] Mike Abrams: And whenever you get a chance, you let me know and I'll link it so people can follow along here. You're musings. Yeah, I am. Amazing. This has been so fun. Thank you again for being an amazing guest.

[40:10] Will Roland: Thanks for having me.

[40:12] Mike Abrams: Thanks, everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died. The podcast breaks down the catastrophe to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else to listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram and TikTok at The Wrong Cat Died. We're checking our website, the wrong cat died.