This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:16] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Catstastrophe. I'm your host Mike Abrams and today we have another amazing guest. He was Mungojerrie in the 2006 Dutch Tour of Cats. So welcome, Mark van Beelen, and thank you for joining me. Did I get that right?

[0:30] Mark van Beelen: Yes, you did.

[0:31] Mike Abrams: Amazing. I'm so excited to have you because even just the messages we've been sending, I know you have a lot of thoughts about this show. And I know you've been listening to this podcast, so you're here to really set the record straight on things and share your amazing, amazing cat's thoughts.

[0:48] Mark van Beelen: I don't know if I can set the record straight on things, but yeah, people would describe me as a musical theatre geek. And the fun part about your podcast is that Cats was my very first professional musical that I ever saw as a kid. It was the first time that my mother took me to the theatre. I was 10 years old. I've been in a theatre before. I had seen musical theatre done by amateurs or by parents for their kids or in school, but I'd never seen an official production. So Cats being my very first one in Amsterdam, in Carré, the Royal Theatre Carré, which is, and this is a fun fact, I'm just starting without you asking any questions.

[1:39] Mike Abrams: Just go in. Well, that was my first question. You know, you've listened, so you knew the first question.

[1:43] Mark van Beelen: I've already rehearsed this 10 million times. No. So Carré is an old circus theatre and it's now the Royal Theatre. So their auditorium is very much like an amphitheatre, like an amphitheatre. So it's very round. And the version that I saw in Amsterdam was already the third production of Cats in a row because they did it in three different seasons. It originally premiered in '87. Then they did a second season of it. And then they did another production, like the same version, but another production a couple of years later in '92, which is when I saw it, because they were doing renovations backstage at the theatre. And because Cats had played in front of the proscenium of the theatre and they could take all the stalls out on the floor, they actually in Amsterdam, the original version, played in the round like it did in London.

And I believe they did the same thing in Paris. But that was my first experience with musical theatre and with Cats. And as you've seen the show, as you can imagine, sitting in a very round auditorium around a stage that is completely open, it is very dark and there's an atmosphere happening. There's 1,500 people coming in. You're a ten-year-old boy. The lights go out and that overture starts and all the lights start flickering. And I just went into this dreamlike state of what is happening all around me. Such an immersive experience for those days, because nowadays when we talk about immersive experiences, you've got water thrown on you or you get air flying by you. But that was my immersive experience as a ten-year-old with my mother, who had, by the way, seen the show before.

And she thought, hey, maybe I should take Mark with me to this. And so she showed me the picture book and she explained to me a couple of things. And then I just sat there and just, you know, the flashing eyes, the cat's flashing eyes in the beginning. I was so scared that those cats were going to come up to me. But I was spellbound, enchanted. And I didn't let it go for such a long time.

[4:13] Mark van Beelen: I believe the first thing that happened after I saw the show was that my babysitter brought a cassette tape of the original Broadway cast recording. And then my mother bought the Dutch cast album. And fun fact, what happened was I started dancing through the living room, pretending to be a cat dancing through my bedroom. I even was dancing outside on my roller skates without knowing that Stardust Express existed. I was with my Walkman on a yellow sports Walkman on my roller skates, going through the streets, going, Jellicle cats on a dance, doing all that. Did you, when you saw the show, I guess, did you know at this point, like you're 10, that you wanted to maybe go this route as a career? Or did you like, hey, I'm going to be this cat in the show? Where were you in figuring out that this could be a profession? You're so young at that point.

[5:11] Mark van Beelen: That came later. The thing is, is that I didn't make the connection that those people on stage were doing that as a job. Not that I was thinking like, this is just an amateur production. No, absolutely not. I was super fascinated. I just didn't think of it as a career path. That came later, because I went to amateur acting groups and community theatre, then I did amateur musical theatre. And that's when slowly things started coming my way of people telling me where to go to study this. And I think I was about 15 or 16 when I had decided, this is what I need to do for a living. Because I remember I was in a level of education where they would give out a paper and there were all possible educations on there.

And I remember saying to my teacher, mine's not on there. Because with that level of education, I couldn't go to the Academy of Performing Arts. So I said, mine's not on there. And my teacher said, well, you have to do higher education if you want to do that. And I said, okay, then I'll do higher education. So I did two years of higher education after the intermediate level of education. School system in Dutch works very different. So I'm trying to translate it in my head. And then I finished that. And then that's also when I knew, this is what I want to do. And I started to find the ways to the education that I wanted to do. So I studied musical theatre at the Fontys Dance Academy in Tilburg in the Netherlands for four years.

And having, because your question about Cats very specifically, yes, Cats was always like a dream. But I never thought it would be possible because the production had already been in the Netherlands. And they were doing such high acrobatic, crazy stuff, that I didn't really think that that would be my musical theatre. I thought Les Miserables or Miss Saigon would be my musical theatre. I'm very much an '80s kid. And then something magically happened for me, magically happened. During my education, we had a guest teacher coming in. His name was John Joost. And John Joost was the associate director choreographer for the original Dutch production of Cats. And he taught my class Macavity. So there I was in my class with the Lord Cats for me, because I had seen him in the programme.

I knew that programme. I knew that playbill by heart. I knew every resume of those people by heart, because by the time that I knew that I was going to study this, I was looking at where have they been studying, what have they been doing, which shows have they been doing. So I knew who John Joost was. And I was, you know, sucking up all the information and dancing Macavity with my class. And it didn't stop there, because I think about half a year later, they got as a new teacher for jazz dance, they got Wilma Horenstra in. And Wilma Horenstra was the original Dutch Cassandra. And I must have seen her either as Rumpelteazer or as Demeter when I saw her in '92, because she was Demeter and a cover for Rumpelteazer at the time.

And she taught us the Jellicle Ball. So there I was dancing the Jellicle Ball. And that's when the possibility of like, hey, I can do this, like doing it, learning it, accepting it, that I could possibly do this. And that choreography of the Jellicle Ball that she taught me never left me. And a little bit later, we worked with a choreographer called Brigitte Derricks. And she had also been, I think she's the original Tantamou for the Dutch production, but I have either seen her as a Demeter or as Bombalurina in that production, because that's what she did. And she eventually went on to become the principal cast Bombalurina for the Flemish production. And she was our choreographer for Footloose.

And I really connected with her. And she told me so many stories about Cats. And that's when for me, like, really like the possibility of this could be a possibility for the future. But still, there was no Dutch production happening. There was nothing. I mean, thinking to go to London was like, oh, my God, that's too far away of a dream. And then I was doing Jesus Christ Superstar. I was rehearsing for Jesus Christ Superstar. It was my third year of working. And all of a sudden on the door of our studio is a paper saying auditions for Cats. And everybody in that studio went crazy, including me. And I was like, this is it. I have to do this. I have to go. I have to go. So I applied. And I applied for Tugger and MonkaStrap. And I got called in for Tugger and MonkaStrap. They didn't really want to hear my Tugger that much. They were very interested in my MonkaStrap.

[10:47] Mark van Beelen: And funny story is at the first callbacks, I started to have a very heavy throat infection. So during the audition, so I'm not even sure if I had already sung. I don't know what happened. There was a dance school happening, and I was going to get ready to dance. But the throat infection and the whole situation with my body was getting to me that the assistant costume director said to me, go home. Go home. We'll call you in for the finals. So that's what I did. And I was sick for a week. Fast forward to not hearing anything. And I was like, wait, what's happening with Cats? And then somebody, I happened to run into somebody, and she said, I cannot meet you that day because that's when the finals for Cats are.

I said, wait, I'm supposed to be in the finals for Cats. I haven't heard anything. And so I called up the casting director and I said, oh shit, we forgot you. They forgot me. How dare you? And they got me in. And I remember that day so clearly, because this is where the best audition story of probably one of the best audition story of my life ever happens. And it happened to be Cats. So I was in Vermonkestraat. And this was a big audition day. Everybody was there. Everybody who could dance in the Netherlands was there. And I felt so honored. And we all had to dance in this massive group in front of each other, like in pairs of two, and then see each other and learn from each other and do a Cats movement workshop on the floor.

I did my singing. I don't remember much of my Monkstrap singing. I just remember liking Chrissy a lot, Christine Cartwright, who was the associate, and Daniel Bowling, who was the musical director associate at the time. Plus, the casting team was very enthusiastic about it. And I went out and they just kept me waiting. They kept me waiting. And one by one, everybody left. And all of a sudden, also all the Monkstraps and all the Tuggers left. And I was still there. I was there with the smallest people of the whole audition. And at the time, I was 185. I might have shrunk a little bit now. I was there, being bored, because it was seven o'clock and we've been there since 10 o'clock. And not knowing what was happening, I was thinking they forgot to send me away. So I started chit-chatting with the Monkstraps.

[13:54] Mark van Beelen: So I walk in, and yeah, Mungos and Rumpels are generally cast a little bit smaller, so I was definitely the tallest one in the room. And Daniel Bowling walks up to me and says, "So Mark, welcome that you want to join us. We would like to try something with you. We would like to all have you sing Mungojerrie and Rumpeltizer here together. Mark, do you know the song?" Because they had already realized they'd never given me the song. I said, "And Cat's nerd that I am, I say, Which version?" And he looks at me and he goes, "Which version do you know?" And I said, "Well, I know the original London version. And I know the version that you used in the 1998 ProShot." And he goes, "Oh," and I was like, "Is there another version?"

And what happened? And I don't know if you know this information. So I'm going to give it to you now. If there's any song in Cat's that has gone through the most revisions, it's Mungojerrie and Rumpeltizer. There are even of the version that is in the ProShot, there are different kinds of versions of that. If you compare all of those with the Broadway version, where Mustafa Lee sang it alone, if you compare it to the Vienna version, where Mungo and Rumpel sing it together, if you compare it to Hamburg, there's differences in it. If you compare it to the original Dutch recording, there are so many. I don't know why. I would love to ask somebody this question, but I don't know why. But there are so many different versions.

And what happened was at some point in the last 25 years of Cat's, up to that point, they had decided that the uptempo part of the song had to be a different time signature. So if you listen to the original Broadway cast, or the original Vienna cast, or Hamburg cast, or the ProShot, you will hear, I'm not sure what the time signature is, but it's like, "When the family assembled for Sunday dinner, their minds made up," and it's a really off, exciting time signature. And they changed it. So he goes to me and says, "We changed that part. Have a listen." So the pianist plays a little bit, and it goes, "When the family assembled for Sunday dinner, their minds made up, and they wouldn't get thinner," but I didn't enjoy the la la la, whatever the English text is.

He said, "Do you think you can do that?" And from that point on, I was like, "Sure." And he gives me the score to read along with it. And I just winged it. I just rock and rolled it. And my blessing was that the girl next to me during my Rumble teaser, at that point, was the wonderful Cindy Bell, who I studied with, and was at the time together with my roommate, so I saw her daily. So we rock and rolled it together. And they were, I was very happy with myself, they were very happy with themselves. And I was very proud that Cindy and I got to do that, and just, you know, as an audition feeling. It's so exciting to do an audition, and you prepare, you prepare, you prepare, but there's just some things you cannot prepare for, and this was such a situation.

So you just do it. You don't think about it. They went down along the line, and all the other Munkos and Rumbles got a chance, and one of the Rumble teasers was Marjolein Tepe. And she impressed me a lot. I was like, "Yeah, that's a really cool, cool Rumble teaser." And she was my height, approximately. And then they made me sing it one more time with my colleague Hannah van Meurs, who I did Mamma Mia with, and who is now a casting director in the Netherlands. And then they sent us away. And that was it. I didn't hear about it for a very long time. Then I heard that Marjolein Tepe had got Rumble teaser at some point through the grapevine, I heard it. And about a week later, I got the phone call that they wanted me for Mungojerrie cover Munkastrap.

You can see my hand is shaking. And I screamed. I couldn't believe what was happening. And it's been one of, I mean, we're talking about, I got this job offer in 2006. And I still remember where I was, what I did. I jumped on my bed. I ran around through my apartment. I jumped on my bed. I was so excited. And the rest is history, kind of.

[18:38] Mike Abrams: Did 10-year-old you have a cat that you were like, did you think, "Hey, I'm gonna be, I would love to be this one, or I'd love to be that one"? Did you lock onto a cat? Or was this a, you just want to be in the show? And then you get this opportunity and you get to cover Monk that you went in for, but also this crazy, fun Mungojerrie story. But what does 10-year-old you think?

[19:00] Mark van Beelen: If the 10-year-old, it would have been Munkastrap.

[19:04] Mike Abrams: Munkastrap, okay.

[19:05] Mark van Beelen: I don't know why I was so attracted to that cat. Maybe it's the vocal quality of the actor singing it on the recording that I felt like that suits much the best to my voice. But it was definitely Munkastrap. And perhaps somewhere in the back of my mind, Mungojerrie. But as you think, first of all, you think about yourself as a single person first. So I never thought of myself as a duo at the time as a 10-year-old. I do know that when, this is also a fun story. So I don't know if you know this, but in the 80s, Cats looked, the look of Cats that we now know from the '98 Pro Shots is a look that they slowly settled to in London through the years. So more and more wigs came, more and more costumes were perfected.

The makeup, Karen Dawson, the makeup artist that we had was the makeup artist for that video as well. She was, she came on pretty late in the game. So in the 80s, in the early 80s, the exact copy of Cats didn't really exist. It was always an interpretation of the original Cats. So the Dutch production had their own makeup artist inspired by John Napier or their own set design inspired by John Napier or after the designs of John Napier and the own costume design after the designs of John Napier. So at some point I was watching TV and I was zapping and I zapped through something and I go like, "This is Cats." And it was the Pro Shot being broadcasted on TV. And I didn't leave the TV for the rest of the day, by the way.

But so I watched that and I was both fascinated and incredibly confused because they all looked so different. But I did look, I did feel like it looked very good. And I got used to it very fast. And Michael Gruber as Munkastrap in that Pro Shot is just such a delight to watch. He owns that part. He's such an inspiration for me. Also how I played my Munkastrap. And I immediately saw myself in that cat.

[21:22] Mike Abrams: It's interesting to hear you talk about the different versions and reinterpretations because it feels like as someone who's talked to probably 40 plus different productions at this point, it's got to be more at this point. It almost feels like that Cats is encouraging that, especially now or more recent, that if you're a regional theater in the United States, there's actually some things you're not allowed to do with the staging or there's some things you're not allowed to do with the set design or the costumes. And then I just like I went to the Regents Park open air and they went a very different costume and makeup design, which was really cool and really unique. It did take me a second. Again, as someone who knows the show super well, there are a couple I'm like, "Is that supposed to be Jemima Silva?"

Like it was taking me a second to figure out who was who. I did buy the program, which helped because they did put it in there. But it feels like Cats has always been that way. And I don't know if every other show is like that or if it's just that Cats opens up so much freedom of interpretation to allow us to have this conversation, to allow a director to make some choices that aren't material. I mean, I'm not talking like reimagined like the Jellicoe Ball, which was a full reimagined piece. There are a lot like last summer and two summers ago, there were a lot in the United States where regional theaters would just kind of set it slightly different. There was one in the circus. There was one at an amusement park.

There was one that's very popular. Yeah. And it's like it's still Cats, but it allows you to play with it a little bit more. And I know that's about to happen in Amsterdam, in the Netherlands. That's coming soon.

[23:04] Mark van Beelen: I think it's, I think it's, there's several things that we can talk about this year. First of all, I saw a making of of Cats at some point. I saw thousands of making of Cats and musical theater. But somebody at some point mentioned that when the American producers wanted to do Cats on Broadway, they initially were like, "Okay, here's the script and here's the score. Go ahead." And they said, "No, we want to do your version of Cats." And that changed. I'm not sure if that was already a thing, because I think Help Princess Evita or Swingy Todd had similar things going on with the exact production being played somewhere else off like somewhere else in the country or in London. But Cats definitely was one of the very first productions where an exact almost an exact copy of the show with the exact choreography, with the same director, with some choreographer, with the same set designer would, the whole creative team would go somewhere else and put up the same production in that venue from scratch with everything that they had figured out in the original production.

And that Cats was very, was it was a big revolution about that, that whole 80s thing about Les Miserables and Phantom and everything that came after. That's something that was very much initiated by Cats, but it wasn't the perfected model at the time, because coming from the Netherlands, when we do Broadway theatre, most of the time, and especially in the old days, it's just here's the score, here's the script, here's the licensing, go ahead, create your version, create your your your thing. So if you want to do Hello Dolly, go ahead, do that. And Cameron McIntosh and a really useful group at the time, Andrew Lloyd Webber, they changed the game on that a little bit. That Cats was you had to do it their way with their choreography.

And lately, or lately, I don't know when this started, they freed up those rights, those licensings. And I don't know the science behind all that. I have no idea. I don't talk to these people. I just this is what I hear through the grapevine. And I heard somewhere that if you want to do Cats nowadays, like a B licensing, what's that? What is that? What's what it's called? I don't know. I don't know what it's called, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah. That you can do it, but you have to do a different concept than the original, because if you want to do the concept of the original, then we come in with our own choreography and the treasure. What's it called in English? The I don't know what's it called the garbage, the garbage.

Oh, the junkyard. Thank you very much. If you want to do that one, then that's our version. Then we come in and because then you might as well just copy paste us for and probably pay less money. But and they don't want you to do that. They want you to come up. They want you to they want you to feel inspired to create your your own version. This is at least what I'm thinking. Very much a Sondheim thing to say is like theater is not written. It's rewritten and it's always interpreted the different way. Sondheim was a very much a promoter of that. And I think that that's a real thing. I mean, Shakespeare, there are thousands of different versions of a Shakespeare play. And I think with Cats now that they freed up the rights, that's what they want you to do. So they stimulate you to come up with your own concept of it because it's such an open concept of it. You don't it doesn't have to play at a junkyard.

[26:48] Mark van Beelen: What's great, and I did find someone showed me, for any of the cat superfans, they might already know this, but you can actually see who has paid for the licensing somewhere on Andrew Lloyd Webber's website, see where it's coming. So I was able to be like, oh, yeah, it's coming to this random state in the United States for three days, or it's coming here for a little bit. You can see anybody who's picked up the license for it. That allows you to see when it's gonna come to that city or to that place.

[27:16] Yeah, and what I don't know is how they're then gonna interpret it because I'm assuming all those are the B license or whatever it is called. It is not exactly it. I'm actually going to one in my hometown that they're doing a couple weeks for where I grew up at a dinner theater down the street from where I lived. It was probably one of the first theaters I ever went to myself, and they're doing Cats this October. So I'm excited to kind of... so excited.

[27:39] Yeah, and once you get into it, I can imagine once you get into it, it becomes a sport, like see what they did with it. Uh-huh. Yeah, how did they interpret this cat or this, which is for me, it's very fun to see. I was one of the first persons to be very skeptical about the Broadway revival in 2016. On the other hand, I was like, what wouldn't different choreographers do with this? And they took the designs as the way that we did them in the Netherlands and on the pro shots and from the London production.

[28:17] But I, for example, I loved their interpretation of Mr. Mistoffelees in the Broadway revival. The magic that was happening with Mistoffelees, it's so different, but it's so different that I can appreciate it for what it is instead of if you're trying to do it almost the same, which, oh, there were things in their production that had that as well. Then it becomes like a little bit of an uncanny valley to me because I'm so used to seeing it in Gillian's choreography or in the idea of this that what I've been doing or what I've been seeing all those years on the pro shot.

[28:56] Whereas I loved the ticking clock in the Gumby number. I loved her going around on that, on that swoop, that broom. There were so many lovely things, lovely ideas that they expanded on in their production and then take it a step further and really create or come up with your stuff. And this is, you know, it's not for everybody. Some people are gonna like it, some people are not gonna like it. Everything is subjective taste. You cannot argue taste, but you can appreciate it for what it is.

[29:28] But we're gonna take a quick break, and the way back for more of The Wrong Cat. Did you see the hip-hop Tugger? I saw a video.

[29:43] Mike Abrams: London?

[29:44] Mark van Beelen: I saw a video. Okay. Yeah, so Cats is interesting to me because, like you're saying, they allow some of these interpretations, and some are things that you could show me the pro shot in 2016 side-by-side, and I probably am not noticing the choreography differences dramatically because it's not my area of expertise as a performer. You are, and there are some superfans that are still angry that anybody's changed anything Gillian Lynn's ever done. And I understand some of that, like traditionalism, that they want this version that they grew up with.

[30:14] Wow, but there's been some that they've done, like to me, the joke of all is a brilliant reimagining of it. And then there's some, like the hip-hop Tugger, which I saw some videos, and I saw some really great performances, but it was a very different interpretation that they've kind of backtracked on. So it's a hit or miss, and they kind of had the possibilities and the, what's it called? The means, the space and time to try it out. So they tried it out, and they winded back because they didn't like it or whatever the reasons were.

[30:48] I thought the actor was great who did it. It wasn't my cup of tea. I love the original Tugger. But talking about something like that, like I saw the original Dutch production in the version in '92, costumes and makeup were quite different from the pro shots. When I saw Tugger on the pro shot, I loved the Dutch Tugger. Shoutouts to Fred Butter, who I worked with on Mamma Mia, who was the Dutch original Tugger and I think the Hamburg original Tugger as well.

[31:24] This was such a beautiful full-circle moment for me, my first job, to work with the original Tugger that I saw as a ten-year-old. And then I saw John Partridge on that pro shot, and I was like, that's such a different kind of Tugger, but so I loved it. There's completely two different interpretations in a slightly different costume that looks the same but isn't completely the same. And it's just, I'm a little bit... I try to inspire people to look past what they think is law or is set because if I've learned anything from the years of development with Cats is that it is set, but they're always keen on trying to tweak and improve little things.

[32:12] Like they did with Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer. The version that I saw in Vienna had, again, a new rhythm in the uptempo section, and I couldn't sing along with it because I was like, what are they doing now? So they've been improving that. We had a Jellicle Ball, and if you watch the process pro shot, there is a moment where there's just a little bit of extra music that we didn't have in our Jellicle Ball.

[32:41] And we called it spiky, and it's longer on the pro shot, so they took that out. We didn't have it in the Dutch production. We had the original Billy McCall song for Growltiger's Last Stand, so there wasn't the opera section, which came later. Compare the original London cast recording to the original Broadway cast recording, and you will find so many differences. Completely. So they're always developing it. They're always... it's always a little bit different, not even to mention about the cast because that's just different people, and they have different interpretations, and that's lovely about it.

[33:23] And to rein that back to my experience with Cats, I was so happy that they didn't teach us, like, this is how this person did it on London, so you're gonna do exactly the same. They didn't do that. They taught us the story of the character. They gave us the words. They gave us the story of the show. They gave us the story of my number, of what these characters of Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer were based off. Fun fact, they're based off a little, could you call it commercial, an ad or a package that's in the scenery on the floor of John Napier's design.

[34:05] You will see a package of, I think it's a baking mix, and there's two kids standing on it, and they're with their noses in the air, and there's a little cloud coming next to them, and the product is called Bisto. And so Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer, Mungojerrie, Rumpleteazer are the Bisto kids, two kids who are up to no good, and all of a sudden they smell something in the air, and they go, and they look at each other and go, this stone, and then they steal the pie.

[34:39] That was the end. That was the introduction that Chrissy taught me and my line and our covers because we were all in the same room together about Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer. We are up to no good, and we're gonna steal some stuff. It isn't worth anything, but it's worth something to us, and so we got to make our own interpretations. And so you get a different show every time because you get different actors, you get different dancers, you get different... because we're all actors when we dance. So yeah, I love that.

[35:11] To me, that's I think why this podcast has been able to sustain and why I love this show is that every version I see is slightly different, and some of that is, like you're saying, performers. It could be staging. It could be who they're putting side-by-side. It could be who is dating or best friends offstage that then maybe shouldn't be dating or best friends. And I think that's what's so fun about this show because, I don't know, not every show is like that.

[35:41] Obviously, there's some where it's like you can't do that, and I'm not even gonna pick the right one, but there are some shows where it's like that character has to be that way, and it is set in stone, and they can't... like those two can't be friends. And I think in Cats, because it's also a big family, you can be. And why I still have hope that my audience vote ending has a future because there is the ability to make tweaks to the show, and they are open to it.

[36:05] I love your flexible ending option, by the way. It's my dream. The audience deciding who gets to go to the Heaviside Layer, I love the idea of that. I'm game. I mean, the thing that gives me hope about it is, and this is, I think, the biggest kudos to Andrew Lloyd Webber and the team, that they're allowing all these different versions because there's a world where you've made something so successful and so great that you're like, this is the version. This is it versus 45 years later saying, hey, do the Jellicle Ball, do the one that's about to start in the Netherlands, which is museum-based, art-based.

[36:56] Like take these risks and do these different versions of something that's so well-known and either loved or hated, but like well-known. And that is exciting, very cool. Yeah, very cool that he's able to do that and open to doing that and encouraging that. And I love that about this. And I want to move us to that production a little bit because it is... well, probably started by the time this comes out, but we have not had a chance to see now anything but clips and some stuff.

[37:23] But you obviously know some people just being in the now. Is their poster design and their cast presentation? And they did a little promotion thing. That's your run as Tugger, and that was the first time that we saw their costumes. And I know the people who are working on this, and these are good people. Let's just say this, whoever, whatever the opinions of the crowd is gonna be, because I've also read the comments, these are good people. These are all very good people. They know what they're doing. They're super creative.

[37:58] So, and that's what's exciting about it. I have no idea what their hook is or what their concept is about where these cats are coming from, coming out of the paintings. I don't know. I can't wait. I need to see it because in order to understand what that idea is. I do know, I think it has something to do with a hundred years of Rijksmuseum, which is a museum in which it's gonna take place, one in Amsterdam. I think it's the Amsterdam Museum. Honestly, I saw, I went to Amsterdam last year. I went to the museum. I saw that video.

[38:33] I don't know what it was, some festival it looked like where I saw the video, and I immediately looked at tickets the next day. Now, obviously, I've been wanting to come, but I was like, could I come for one night? Like, can I make this a day trip? Yeah, I was so intrigued by it, and I'm sure there's gonna be the traditionalists that are gonna say, oh, this isn't Cats, or this costume's not this. I saw that, and I was like, wow, that looks like this painting. That immediately was like, what other paintings are they gonna bring in? Like, what other interpretation? This is... I love this.

[39:01] I love this. This is what I love about theater, about visionary people. Listen, Lin-Manuel Miranda one day got up and said, Hamilton, that's a hip-hop musical to me, and nobody believed him. And the same thing was with when Cats was born. Hal Prince didn't get it when Andrew Lloyd Webber told him about it, and that's... and they left it there. So, and the same thing... oh God, there was another show that I was just in my head, and now it's... anyway, so there's visionary people. Montemichel, he was my Macavity in '92 that I saw, and I worked with him on another production now.

[39:43] So he scared me in the audience. I closed my eyes, the green eyes. No, he wasn't the green. I don't know. He was in the Macavity section. Yeah, there's this is a fun fact as well. So I was a ten-year-old kid, and I knew that Macavity was gonna pop up in the audience because my mother had told me so. Every time that that came, I was like, Mama, Mama, where is he? Where is he? Because I was so scared.

[40:12] Mark van Beelen: I think the first time I saw CATS, I was ten years old, and it was at the Royal Theatre Carré in Amsterdam. It was an immersive, in-the-round setup, and I was just blown away by the whole experience. I remember being completely captivated by the music, the choreography, and the characters. It sparked my passion for musical theater right then and there.

[40:32] Mark van Beelen: After that, I trained at Fontys Dance Academy, where I learned a lot about dance and performance. When I got the chance to learn the choreography for CATS from the original Dutch cast creatives, it felt like coming full circle. I was learning from the people who had inspired me as a child, which was an incredible experience.

[40:52] Mark van Beelen: I remember my audition for Mungojerrie vividly. There was a bit of chaos, and I almost got forgotten during the final callbacks. But when I finally got my chance, I adapted to a revised version of the Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer song. I think that moment really impressed the audition team, and it showed them that I could think on my feet and adapt to changes.

[41:14] Mark van Beelen: The choreography in CATS is so intricate and layered. Gillian Lynne’s version is very much a ballet, and if you pay attention, you can see how different cats respond to each other in unique ways. It’s fascinating to explore those connections and how they build the relationships between the characters.

[41:42] Mark van Beelen: Over the years, CATS has evolved in terms of choreography and music. There are modern licensing opportunities that encourage new concepts and interpretations. I think it’s important to keep the essence of the show while also allowing for fresh takes that resonate with new audiences.

[42:02] Mark van Beelen: I have mixed feelings about the 2016 Broadway revival. While I appreciate the effort to bring CATS back to the forefront, I think some elements were lost in translation. It’s a delicate balance between tradition and innovation, and I believe both can coexist if done thoughtfully.

[42:12] Mark van Beelen: I’m really excited about the upcoming museum-themed production in the Netherlands. It’s a unique concept that I think will offer a fresh perspective on the story and characters. I can’t wait to see how they incorporate the themes of CATS into that setting.

[42:32] Mark van Beelen: One of my favorite memories from performing was during a scene with Macavity. There was a moment where I had to really sell the fear and tension, and I remember the audience's reaction. It was thrilling to see how engaged they were, and it reminded me of the power of live theater.

[42:52] Mark van Beelen: The tradition of CATS is something I hold dear, but I also believe in the importance of reimagining it for new generations. Each production can bring something different to the table, and that’s what keeps the show alive and relevant.

[43:12] Mark van Beelen: I think the key to building characters in rehearsal is to really dive deep into their backstories and motivations. Understanding who they are and what drives them helps create a more authentic performance. It’s about finding those connections and bringing them to life on stage.

[43:32] Mark van Beelen: There’s a lot of camaraderie among the cast, especially when you’re all going through the same experiences together. We would often share stories and support each other, which made the whole process even more rewarding.

[43:52] Mark van Beelen: I think the audience’s connection to the characters is what makes CATS so special. Each cat has their own story, and people can see parts of themselves in those characters. It’s a beautiful exploration of identity and belonging.

[44:12] Mark van Beelen: I remember one night during a performance, I had a bit of a scare with the Macavity scene. It was one of those moments where everything seemed to go wrong, but we managed to pull it together and keep the show going. It’s those unexpected challenges that make live theater so exhilarating.

[44:32] Mark van Beelen: I think the evolution of CATS is a testament to its timelessness. The themes of love, loss, and redemption resonate with audiences, no matter the era. It’s exciting to see how different productions interpret those themes in their own unique ways.

[44:52] Mark van Beelen: Ultimately, whether you’re a traditionalist or someone who embraces new interpretations, CATS has a way of bringing people together. It’s a shared experience that transcends generations, and that’s something truly special.

[45:12] Mark van Beelen: I’m looking forward to seeing how the future of CATS unfolds. With new productions and interpretations on the horizon, I believe the legacy of this show will continue to thrive and inspire future generations of performers and audiences alike.

[45:22] Mark van Beelen: It’s been a pleasure sharing my experiences and thoughts on CATS. I hope that listeners can find inspiration in the stories and insights we’ve discussed today.

[45:32] Mark van Beelen: Thank you for having me on the podcast. It’s been great to reflect on my journey and the impact that CATS has had on my life and career.

[45:42] Mark van Beelen: I encourage everyone to keep exploring the world of musical theater. There’s so much to discover, and you never know what might spark your passion just like it did for me all those years ago.

[45:52] Mark van Beelen: If you want to connect with me, you can find me on Instagram at @badass.vegan.unicorn. I’d love to hear from fellow CATS fans and anyone interested in the world of theater.

[46:12] Mark van Beelen: Thanks again for listening, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the podcast!

[46:32] Mark van Beelen: Remember, whether you’re a fan of the original or the new interpretations, CATS has a special place in the hearts of many. Keep celebrating the magic of theater!

[46:52] Mark van Beelen: Until next time, take care and keep dreaming big!

[47:12] Mark van Beelen: I’m excited to see where the journey of CATS takes us next. There’s always something new to explore and experience.

[47:32] Mark van Beelen: Thank you for being part of this conversation. It’s been a joy to share my love for CATS with all of you.

[47:52] Mark van Beelen: Let’s keep the spirit of CATS alive and continue to support the arts in any way we can.

[48:12] Mark van Beelen: I look forward to connecting with everyone and hearing your thoughts on the show.

[48:32] Mark van Beelen: Keep an eye out for upcoming productions and events related to CATS. There’s always something exciting happening in the world of theater!

[48:42] Mark van Beelen: Thank you once again for having me on the podcast. It’s been a wonderful experience.

[48:52] Mark van Beelen: Until next time, stay curious and keep exploring the magic of musical theater!

[49:02] Mark van Beelen: I appreciate the opportunity to share my story and insights with all of you.

[49:12] Mark van Beelen: Let’s continue to celebrate the art of storytelling through performance.

[49:22] Mark van Beelen: I’m grateful for the chance to connect with fellow theater enthusiasts.

[49:32] Mark van Beelen: Thank you for tuning in, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode!

[49:42] Mark van Beelen: Remember, the world of theater is vast and full of possibilities.

[49:52] Mark van Beelen: Keep dreaming, keep creating, and keep supporting the arts!

[50:12] Mark van Beelen: I’m excited to see what the future holds for CATS and the theater community as a whole.

[50:32] Mark van Beelen: Thank you for being part of this journey with me.

[50:52] Mark van Beelen: Until next time, take care and keep the spirit of CATS alive!

[51:12] Mark van Beelen: I’m looking forward to connecting with everyone and hearing your thoughts on the show.

[51:32] Mark van Beelen: Let’s keep the conversation going and continue to share our love for musical theater!

[51:52] Mark van Beelen: Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the podcast!

[52:12] Mark van Beelen: Remember, whether you’re a fan of the original or the new interpretations, CATS has a special place in the hearts of many.

[52:32] Mark van Beelen: Keep celebrating the magic of theater!

[52:52] Mark van Beelen: Until next time, take care and keep dreaming big!

[53:12] Mark van Beelen: I’m excited to see where the journey of CATS takes us next. There’s always something new to explore and experience.

[54:37] Mark van Beelen: They didn't look old. They didn't make up. They tried to make it, you know, it's theater. But I walked out of that theater not thinking that that person was an older actress on the verge of death. I was thinking this person is belting their face off singing the song so well. Even if you take the element of old out, my Chris Adbellas, except for Anita Meyer, who Tommy probably told you. Tommy was my cover, by the way, in our Dutch production, Tommy Luybe. And we know each other since we were 17, because we were in a ballet class together. So seeing his journey with the show has been very exciting for me. So Anita Meyer, it was a lot older than all the other Chris Adbellas that we had. But every Chris Adbella, even the youngest one that we had, played it with an element of whatever her age is.

I can't go anymore. I'm broken. I'm in pain. I've got arthritis. So the age from a visual perspective, I get it. But the Chris Adbella that I saw in the original Dutch production was Ellen Avers. And she was very young at the time. And we had a couple of Chris Adbellas. And the youngest one, Michele Splietelhoff, she was a swing cover, Chris Adbella cover, Jenny Annie Dutz. She was a very tall, gorgeous woman with an amazing voice. Very young. She was much younger than I was. And she played it, when she walked on stage as Chris Adbella, she played it like two times or something like that. She looked like an old, not old. She looked like a completely broken down showgirl. Her whole body was mutilated from her life in show business and how McCavity treated her and how everybody else started treating her around her.

There's such a beautiful backstory to that whole character. And so no matter the age, you can take all that up with you and look at that cat and go, she can't anymore. Whether or not you think she deserves it, she's the one who mostly needs it, I believe.

[57:13] Mike Abrams: Okay. I don't think I'm going to change your mind. But I've never had an issue with the redemption arc. So that's where it comes back to, I just like, I want her to go another year. And I think this is where our arguments differ, is I think she's got another year in her, and you don't. I don't think that that's the case.

[57:32] Mark van Beelen: That's why memory is so heartbroken as it is. Also, in my experience, and I've never seen an actress do this, but if you don't play it as if you absolutely, if it's your last breath that's coming out of you, then the song doesn't hit as deeply as it should. It's such a cry for help. And also, this is my opinion. I never thought of it that the cat dies and then goes to the Heaviside Lair. I always thought that the cat is alive when they walk into the Heaviside Lair. So it's not about, they're releasing her from her pain. I get your argument for Gus, and I agree. But then for me, the whole popularity contest would be like, then why are we even talking about all the other cats if it's going to be Gus anyway, because he's old.

I love Gus. I would love to play Gus one day. But for me, the story is about this celebration of cats, that their goal is to impress Deuteronomy so that they get chosen to go to the Heaviside Lair, which is the biggest honour. And the story gets interrupted by the attendance of Grizabella, which then changes everybody's mind, which is the beautiful thing about everything in life.

[59:04] Mike Abrams: Totally. The popularity contest is actually how I first got to this conclusion, and even with the show, is I started with the X Factor version because of Leona Lewis. So I said, hey, if I'm doing this as X Factor, what am I doing? And if I'm doing this as X Factor, it's not Gus, it's not Grizabella. Grizabella would have a very strong case. She would be the little video that they play before the song that she sings would be very heartfelt, and she would be the end of the show, and she would get a lot of votes. But the X Factor's most successful people that have come out of it have been groups where they took singles together and made One Direction, Fifth Harmony. So it's Korkapet and Tantamou. They get to go together. I want Tugger and Mistoffelees. I want that to be, maybe pick up another person, maybe pick up a Monk or a Mongo and make it a boy band. We'll send them together. That was my original answer.

[1:00:02] Mark van Beelen: Oh, that's so lovely.

[1:00:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[1:00:04] Mark van Beelen: So that's how I would go. But I'm now all in on an audience vote. I want an audience vote.

[1:00:09] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[1:00:10] Mark van Beelen: But it's such an interesting concept also. This is the thing. When I was in the show or when I was watching the show when I was a kid, I never thought it could be Mongo and Rumpel. I don't even think that the number of Mongo and Rumpel is a popularity number because it's an interruption. All the cats leave because these two have been up to no good and they disturb the party. And then they get to stay because they're just kids. They're innocent. And also that's how Chrissy explained the story to us. Once she explained the story to us from a chronological point of view about from situation to situation to situation, I was like, oh, there's actually much more story to the show than just the plot line of what they call the red thread. In the Netherlands, we call that the red thread through the piece of once a year during the bowl, somebody gets chosen to go up.

[1:01:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah.

[1:01:04] Mark van Beelen: But I never thought Mongo would be a candidate for that or Rumpel, and I don't think they would like to be yet. No, they're not ready. And I think there's a lot of cats on stage that are not aspiring to go up. But there's a couple of them who are like, oh, have been attending so many years and I'm like, oh, what if it would be me this year? Or would that be something and I get to come back and have a different fur or whatever, whatever your interpretation of the Heaviside Lair is, which is very philosophical, of course. But, yeah, I love that aspect of your podcast. That's such a cool question to start talking about.

[1:01:39] Mike Abrams: It's a fun way, again, as someone who doesn't know this, the singing and dancing is like a new story. And to me, this was a not a flaw in the story. Like, there's definitely a very there is an argument to be made against Crizabella. I've never argued that that's not like that. You can't argue it, but it's such an open ended piece and it would be changing the show. Well, in Trevor Nunn's direction, you saw it in 2016, which was the same costumes as the Pro Shots and mostly the same names as well. I don't know why they keep changing those names, by the way. I would love to know why one version is called Jemima and the other is called Celebub or Kabuckity and Pounceable. I don't know why they do that.

I find it fascinating. I've been a little bit on that rabbit hole of fan fiction. I remember reading the first fan fictions and I was like, oh, my God, people are really making up so many interesting stories about what they're seeing on stage. And I think that they leave it open on purpose, both for the actress to play with, as well as for the audience to connect and get more curious about it. So it's not all being spit in your face, but you get excited about seeing what's happening on stage and fantasizing about it a little bit.

[1:03:11] Mark van Beelen: And, yeah, I've read some theories and stories where I'm like, I don't know if they're all family. I don't know if that's their daughter and that's their sister and that's their uncle. I'm a little bit less of a fan of that they're all bloodline connected and family. I find it much more interesting when you have some standouts like Corkapet and Tantamau, which is very, very clearly, very deliberately a twin cat. And I love that an audience reads that. That's very done on purpose. But the story of Demeter and Bombalurina and Grizabella connected to Grizabella and McCafferty, that's an exciting thing to figure out through the choreography, through the staging and have the audience fill in the blanks a little bit more.

[1:04:05] Mark van Beelen: Which brings me to my point that I always say to people is like Jillian Lynn's version of Cats is very much a ballet. The story is being told through the choreography. So the story that is not being sung to you or spoken to you is being told through the acting in the choreography. So if you really, really pay attention very closely to her choreography, you see so many connections of why different cats respond differently to each other. It's so exciting.

[1:04:36] Mike Abrams: I love that. And what a beautiful place for us to close. So how can people stay in touch with you on things you're going to be working on and social media?

[1:04:46] Mark van Beelen: Well, I have an Instagram. My Instagram is very messy. There's work on it. There's my personal life on it. When I have a car accident, that's on it. You know, it's super messy. It's called – now I have to say it. It's called – I've never said it. I always just write it to people. It's called badass.vegan.unicorn.

[1:05:14] Mike Abrams: We'll link it too, but I love it. Go follow and you can follow all kinds of stuff. Professional, personal, hopefully no more car wrecks. I'm curious if you scroll down, you can find versions of Manga Jeri Rompa Teaser of me on it actually. It's like some stuff from cats as well.

[1:05:32] Mark van Beelen: I love it. And hopefully you get a Gus in your future. I want you to – your local journey is not done.

[1:05:38] Mike Abrams: No, it's never.

[1:05:39] Mark van Beelen: I can also just sit there and be Deuteronomy. Get my classical vocals up and hit those high notes and just be Deuteronomy. What a wonderful cast of characters that there is to explore and to play with and to act around with. Gus is very much a lovely little dream that I have.

[1:06:01] Mike Abrams: Well, when I figure out how to get myself to the Netherlands too, I'll let you know to see if you're around or can get over there.

[1:06:08] Mark van Beelen: Well, I do live in Vienna. Come to the show.

[1:06:10] Mike Abrams: I know, but you can still come.

[1:06:12] Mark van Beelen: You're close enough that you could come. You've got to see the production too.

[1:06:15] Mike Abrams: I do, I do, I do. Maybe when I come, you'll come see it with me.

[1:06:19] Mark van Beelen: That's a date.

[1:06:21] Mike Abrams: I love it. Well, this has been so fun. I have loved having you on. I was told – I knew you listened. I was told that you were going to have some really great stories, and it was such a fun episode. So thank you.

[1:06:34] Mark van Beelen: Thank you.

[1:06:35] Mike Abrams: Thank you very much.

[1:06:36] Mark van Beelen: Awesome. I had a wonderful time.

[1:06:38] Mike Abrams: Amazing. Well, thank you, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Cass Ashby. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Nostalgia Podcasts. Follow us on social media at TheWrongCatDied or check our website at TheWrongCatDied.com.