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[0:01] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat Sasha Fee. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. You might have seen her in Kimberly Akimbo or The Queen of Versailles, and you can currently see her at the Cherry Lane Theater in You Got Older, but I was told she has some opinions on Cats. So I'm excited to hear those, and we'll start with that. So welcome, Nina White, and thank you for joining me.

[0:36] Nina White: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so thrilled to be here.

[0:39] Mike Abrams: I was excited because I know I've obviously seen you perform in Kimberly Akimbo and Queen of Versailles and a bunch of other stuff and was really excited because I never know what people's Cats takes are when they've not done it. And so I was really excited that you have strong opinions about it. So let's start there.

[0:57] Nina White: Yeah. First of all, it's my great displeasure that I haven't done Cats. I don't know where I fit into Cats, honestly, at this moment in my life, but I hope that I can find a place for myself there sometime in my career because I need to do it. But my Cats opinions are, I mean, in the broad scope, I love Cats. I think it's great. I just really don't. All of the Cats hate is, to me, so unfounded. People are like, oh, it's not a book musical. Oh, it doesn't make sense. I think the premise is clear. They have to compete for their life. Okay. I don't really know why either. I don't understand why someone has to go to the Heaviside Lair tonight, really. I don't know why you have to dance to get there, but who cares is how I feel.

And I think a lot of Cats hate is forced, personally. I first saw Cats when I was, I think I was a middle schooler, maybe I was a high schooler, saw a national tour of it that came through Detroit, which is where I grew up. And I remember them coming down the aisles, like dancing and crawling down the aisles, which was insane. And that really, I loved it. Yeah. I love Cats. If you don't like Cats, maybe you don't like dancing. I don't really know. You know what I mean? I think it's just like, obviously it's a dance-centric show. But yeah, I'm just a Cats lover. And I'm a hater of Cats haters.

[2:56] Mike Abrams: So I love it. I agree. I've never found, I've always wanted to have somebody on the show that hates Cats, but I've never been able to give somebody, everyone I ask, they're like, I just don't get it. Or like there's that level of it. There's no clear, thought out reason. I think the only thing I could argue is it lacks some plot, but I do think if you know and read into it or listen to the lyrics, there is plot.

[3:20] Nina White: Yes.

[3:21] Mike Abrams: But I'm very much with you. So I want to go back to middle school. You see it coming through Detroit. This is the tour. At this point, do you know that you are going to go down this musical theater route or is this kind of an early phase of that?

[3:37] Nina White: I was already really into musical theater by the time I saw Cats. Musical theater was not really a part of my earlier childhood. I didn't grow up going to theater. I grew up going to dance, seeing ballet and stuff, but I didn't, it wasn't until I got into doing theater myself that I started seeing theater, if that makes sense. And so, yeah, I was already really into musicals by the time I saw Cats. I knew it was iconic. It's like Cats. Everyone knows Cats. Even non-theater people know Cats. But yeah, I was already very into musical theater when I saw it.

[4:25] Mike Abrams: Okay. So did you walk out of that theater going, I need to be in this? Or was it kind of like, I really enjoyed this. I don't understand why people dislike it? Because it's a formative age when you're seeing it.

[4:38] Nina White: Yeah. Honestly, yeah. I was like, I would love to be in this. I mean, it felt like I knew it was weird. You know, it's weird. It's still weird. It's weird. It's a weird show. And I knew it was weird at the time, too. And I felt that it was a little strange. However, yeah, I was like, I would love to be in this. I think honestly, because growing up, I really was a dancer, first and foremost. And so also, I was like, I mean, yeah, I would love... The dancing is unbelievable. So I was like, yeah, I totally would love to be in this and dance for my life as a cat.

[5:25] Mike Abrams: Did you gravitate towards any characters when you first saw it? Because I know when I first saw it, I could barely... The names are so weird. I was like, what am I watching? But then there was definitely a few that stood out to me as a non-dancer. I was like, I can't do this. I was really impressed by this.

[5:41] Nina White: Sure. I mean, I loved Victoria. Of course.

[5:48] Mike Abrams: That's the ballet and the...

[5:50] Nina White: Yes. And she opens... I remember she had this like, the développé in second, which I... My legs, they're never going high like that. So I remember being like, okay, I would really have to work to do that track, but maybe I could do it. Because I was like, I mean, I'm short. This looks like the short person track, the young looking person track. But yeah, I was really struck by her. And she's in that all white costume. Oh, my God. I was like, it's stunning. Obviously, that's who I want to be. That made the biggest impression on me. Obviously, Grizabella also. But Grizabella doesn't dance, which kind of did bother me at the time. I was less interested at the time because she didn't dance. Victoria was like my number one.

[6:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[6:42] Nina White: And then I always really liked Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer from the beginning.

[6:47] Mike Abrams: Yep.

[6:48] Nina White: I love a little pair situation. They're doing acrobatics. That was really thrilling. I feel like those are the two acts that I really liked the first time I saw it.

[7:00] Mike Abrams: Well, the good news for you is that Grizabella, in a lot of situations, dances now. Because they put Grizabella in the opening number. And non-Grizabella, full, it's another name or Baby Graze or something. But the international tour, Grizabella dances the opening number. It's not just the 15-minute Princess track that it is or has been in the past.

[7:17] Nina White: Wait, I didn't realize that. Okay, that kind of feels wrong.

[7:27] Mike Abrams: In what way?

[7:29] Nina White: Because I feel like the point is that Grizabella doesn't dance. I mean, that's not the point. But she's an old diva. Don't make her dance.

[7:41] Mike Abrams: Well, it's not Grizabella. It's an ensemble character.

[7:45] Nina White: Track.

[7:46] Mike Abrams: Yeah, because there's a couple where they overlap. Macavity is also Admetus. And Bustopher Jones is also Gus. And actually, the Bustopher Jones-Gus track also usually dances the opening number. And so they're throwing a few people in different names, because every cat has three names. They have that.

[8:04] Nina White: Okay, that makes sense. So I guess as I grow older, I could be Grizabella. I could dance and I could sing. And I would have a good time. I would be happy.

[8:13] Mike Abrams: You can have a Grizabella future.

[8:17] Nina White: They're casting younger, too. That's actually a big part of why I don't think she should be the Jellicle choice. It's a lot of the Grizabellas on tour are young. And why? I don't like it. I'm anti. I feel that way, too.

[8:31] Mike Abrams: Yeah, well, when you go non-equity or some other things, you're going to have that. But it's part of what makes, to me, the argument very different, which we'll get to the argument very end.

[8:41] Nina White: Okay.

[8:42] Mike Abrams: Okay, so you watched it. Who do you want? If you were going to try to be cast today, what would be your dream cat?

[8:49] Nina White: I think that I would want to be Mungojerrie. I really do.

[8:55] Mike Abrams: Mungojerrie. Okay.

[8:58] Nina White: I think that the duo number really speaks to me. And you don't have to hold down the number all by yourself. You have a buddy to keep the energy high, to delight with your partnering skills. I've always really wanted to do that weird partner cartwheel situation. Yeah, I feel like having a duo number is ideal to me.

[9:27] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[9:28] Nina White: And that's where I'd want to be.

[9:30] Mike Abrams: There's a lot of... I think now that I've learned most of the characters and know the show arguably too well, for someone who's not capable of doing any of it, there's a lot of freedom in the show compared to... You're blocked and you have your dance numbers and you have the things you need to do. But there are a lot of moments where you can have some interpretation. And I feel like Mungojerrie Rumpelteazer and The Rum Tum Tugger have to be the most fun because they are intentionally supposed to be mischievous and cause a little bit of a ruckus. When you're in the crowd, you can grab someone's stuff and you can really play around in that role because that's expected of you. So I feel like that's got to be the most fun track to do.

[10:16] Nina White: Yes, I totally agree. One of my good friends from college did the Cats Tour right after we graduated in 2020. And he was telling me about how... Who was he?

[10:32] Mike Abrams: Who was your friend?

[10:34] Nina White: Devin McCluskey.

[10:35] Mike Abrams: Okay. I've now had Devin on.

[10:37] Nina White: You've got to have Devin on.

[10:38] Mike Abrams: I've got to have Devin on now.

[10:39] Nina White: I shouldn't tell any of his stories because you should just interview him. But he really startled me when you talk about what it was like when you... At least in the staging of his tour, he was on stage the whole time. He's like, but really, you just have to do... You get up, you do your number, then... Everyone was such good friends. You were sitting there hanging out with your friends. And then you get up and do your number. And I do feel like if you're playing a more mischievous track, also the way that you could interact with your fellow cast members when it wasn't your number, you have a little bit more freedom. And I really love to laugh on stage. It's probably a bad thing about me. I break very easily. I giggle very easily on stage. So I think, yeah, one of the mischievous tracks would be right for me, also from an employment perspective. I would enjoy my time on the job.

[11:31] Mike Abrams: You could get away with that, too.

[11:33] Nina White: Exactly.

[11:34] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it would be expected.

[11:36] Nina White: Exactly.

[11:37] Mike Abrams: Yeah, there's a level of Cats. I've always, as someone who grew up playing sports, I feel like a lot of theater and just these jobs, and especially tours, are like being on a team. And you get really close to your cast. But I feel like in Cats, it's even further. Because it's like, not only do you get to know them and spend time with them and hang out with them, it's like, then you're going to crawl around on stage on top of them and roll around.

[12:00] Nina White: Yes.

[12:01] Mike Abrams: You are so close to each other in this show.

[12:04] Nina White: Yes. I need to experience that high.

[12:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah. There are so many productions happening right now that there is a Cats future for you.

[12:14] Nina White: Thank you.

[12:16] Mike Abrams: Before we shift away from Cats, did you get to see The Jellicle Ball, by chance?

[12:20] Nina White: Yes, I did.

[12:21] Mike Abrams: Okay. For all the Cats haters that you know, the ones that I met that saw it, this helped. So did you convert anybody with this show?

[12:31] Nina White: I did. I have a couple of friends who I've known since I was a kid.

[12:35] Nina White: I think the premise is clear. They have to compete. For their life. I really don’t know why either.

[13:05] Nina White: I saw the tour in Detroit, and it was just such a wild experience. I was really drawn to the characters, especially the ones that had these big, bold personalities.

[13:35] Nina White: I think I would want to play Grizabella, but I also have a soft spot for Skimbleshanks. There’s something about that character that just speaks to me.

[14:05] Nina White: I think the revival of CATS is really interesting. I’m excited to see how they reinterpret the Jellicle Ball and the characters.

[14:35] Nina White: Skimbleshanks is just so fun! I love the energy of that character, and the choreography is just incredible.

[15:05] Nina White: You Got Older is a play that really hits home for me. It’s about a woman returning home during her father’s cancer treatment, and it explores themes of family and presence.

[15:35] Nina White: The dynamics between the siblings in the play are so authentic. It’s a personal story for Clare Barron, the playwright, and you can really feel that in the writing.

[16:05] Nina White: I think it’s important to have those conversations about family and illness, and You Got Older does that beautifully.

[16:35] Nina White: I really hope people come to see the show. It’s a heartfelt piece that I think resonates with a lot of people.

[17:05] Nina White: The way Clare writes about the complexities of family relationships is just so relatable.

[17:30] Nina White: I think the play captures that feeling of being home and the mix of emotions that come with it.

[18:00] Nina White: I’m really proud to be a part of this production. It feels special to share this story with audiences.

[18:30] Nina White: I think people will find something in it that speaks to their own experiences with family.

[19:00] Nina White: I’m also excited to see how the audience reacts to the play. It’s always interesting to see what resonates with them.

[19:30] Nina White: I think the themes of love and loss are universal, and I hope people leave the theater feeling a sense of connection.

[20:00] Nina White: I’m really looking forward to the conversations that will happen after the show.

[20:30] Nina White: It’s always rewarding to hear how a piece of art can impact someone’s life.

[21:00] Nina White: I think that’s the beauty of theater; it brings people together and allows for shared experiences.

[21:30] Nina White: I’m also a big fan of Starlight Express. It’s such a unique concept, and the music is so catchy.

[22:00] Nina White: I love how it combines storytelling with movement. It’s such a fun show to watch.

[22:30] Nina White: I think there’s something magical about seeing performers on roller skates, and it adds a whole new layer to the experience.

[23:00] Nina White: I would love to see a revival of Starlight Express. I think it could really resonate with a new generation.

[23:30] Nina White: The energy of that show is just infectious, and I think audiences would love it.

[24:00] Nina White: I’m excited to see where the future of musical theater goes, especially with all the new interpretations of classic shows.

[24:30] Nina White: I think there’s so much potential for creativity and innovation in the theater world right now.

[25:00] Nina White: I can’t wait to see what’s next for me and for the industry as a whole.

[25:12] Nina White: From a large family, I feel like my sibling relationships are very important to me. All of them are very different. There's good things about them and bad things about them. I feel like they've really shaped who I am as a person and continue to. I feel like Claire has written really, really real siblings in a way that I find remarkable. I've heard from a lot of people who have seen the show that they're like, it really feels like a real family. I was so moved by that. So that's a part of the show that I guess I really relate to or, I don't know, I find delightful, I guess, in the craft of her crafting the scene. I find it so impressive. I kind of think Peter Friedman, who plays the dad, is so unbelievable. I think, come see Peter. He's so amazing. And his scene work with Alia, who's also incredible, is really, it's really moving and really, really good.

[26:29] Mike Abrams: That's awesome. I definitely hear you on that where I've seen a lot of plays where it's like, oh, that feels exaggerated in the family conversations. I'm like, I would never say that to my sister. I don't think, maybe that's an extreme, maybe once, but you're also viewing that moment. But I do love to hear that. My last You Got Older question, and then we'll go back to, well, this is kind of also going back to Cats, but this is obviously a Cats skewed listening base. What would be your sales pitch to a Jellicle Cats fan on why they should see You Got Older?

[27:02] Nina White: Ooh, okay. If you're a fan of Cats, you should see You Got Older, because at its core, you know, Cats is dealing with mortality. Cats is dealing with, okay, I gotta walk in, I gotta walk in for my pitch. It's dealing with mortality. It's dealing with mortality. Okay, who's gonna go to the heavy side layer? Who's gonna die tonight? You Got Older is also about mortality. It's also about death. And for a bonus, you can watch all the siblings and you can decide who would be what cat.

[27:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I was gonna say, it's a large family, which is what the cats are, with an older leader who's struggling, or an older cat that's struggling, an older dad that's struggling. That's, you know, it's almost a little Grizabella there. Then they need someone to take care.

[28:09] Nina White: They do. So I think there's... I did build, I have not shared it broadly, but I do have a tool that explains to me any show in Cats that I built, because I don't know theater that well. As I've done this show, I've learned a lot more. But as I was like, you know, there's a lot of, especially plays. I know musicals more than plays. I'll be like, what is this about? And I've had a few experiences where I've walked into a play unknowing that it's heavy and not expecting it to be heavy. And so now I have a tool that I just say, tell me this show in Cats. In Cats terms. It'll give me the show in Cats.

[28:50] Mike Abrams: I'm so curious about... so your love for Cats is particular. Would you say...

[29:03] Nina White: I'm so curious about your particular love for Cats, especially if you're like, I'm not actually... I mean, like musicals, you know, but you're not like all theater, I know. I'm very curious. I'm like, I'm gonna interview you.

[29:16] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I'm happy to answer the questions. I'm happy to answer those questions. I moved to New York for work and I grew up, like my mom's a music teacher. So I grew up going to stuff, but I grew up in Indiana. So like you, I probably got in Detroit, we get five shows. We get a handful of things that come through a year and I'd go to a few of them. But I didn't go to all of them. And I was never... I can't dance. I can't sing. I was, you know, I was, I've played one thing in my entire life and I had no lines. In elementary, before elementary school, it was like preschool. I played one character and I sat on a stage and that was it. They painted a beard on my face and I stood there and I did not do anything the whole time.

[29:58] Nina White: Nice.

[29:58] Mike Abrams: So I've not, I don't have a history of this. And I moved to New York and I lived in the theater district in temporary housing for a month. And I just said, it's a random Tuesday or random Wednesday, like I'm going to go see stuff because I'm here. And I loved it. So I saw a lot of theater. But I'd not seen any of the main things, like the classics. I had not seen Phantom and Les Mis and Cats had just revived. So the 2016 revival is when I moved and I went and I walked out just mesmerized kind of of like, this is, cause I had great seats and I was like, this is, as a former like athlete, I'm like, this is, these are athletes. Like this is a, I can't believe that they've been dancing on stage with no break for as long as they have.

[30:41] Nina White: Yeah.

[30:42] Mike Abrams: The physically demanding ability to crawl around stage and do what they were doing.

[30:46] Nina White: Totally.

[30:46] Mike Abrams: So I was kind of floored by that, but I also walked out as someone who loves sitcoms and loves like storytelling and did a lot of humor writing before I moved. It was like, what did I watch? Like, how did this come to life? What is this story? And so I kind of left it alone for a little bit, but like always sat in the back of my mind of like, this was a little weird, but it was also a little interesting and there's a lot there. And then when the 2019 movie came out, that trailer came out, I did a little deep dive and I made the, I made the joke that I was like, I didn't think Rizabelle was the right choice. And, um, and then it kind of snowballed. Like I got asked to make it into a podcast and then I started interviewing people about it, started arguing with cast members about it.

Um, and then now it's like, as I learned more, I was like kind of fascinated by the, the strength of the story and the lack of the story because you know, I'm going this weekend, I'm going to be going to a very small regional production and they're not going to tell them the like depths of the detail character backstory that they might need to know. They're going to tell them enough and then they'll interpret the rest. Cause they're going to do four weekends of shows. Like they're not like, you don't need that level of depth as the tour or the international tour does. Yeah. But there's not an answer to most of this stuff. And I love the fact that like you can play Mungo, Jerry and Rumpelteaser as brother, sister, dating, best friends.

And that doesn't like, I like that freedom and it gives a lot of opportunity for storytelling. And so that is where my love from it came. And it's fun when I talked to like super fans because they'll get like really into like, well, I love Jillian Lynn's choreography. And I'm like, I couldn't tell you the difference between hers and Andy Blake of yours. If you showed me them side by side. Sure. And in, in before 2016, I couldn't have told you who either of those two people were probably. Yeah. And so that is what I think is really cool is that this fandom has a fandom of artists that draw really incredible stuff. It has cosplayers who dress up as cats and come to all kinds of events. It's got the fans that love the dance. It's got the performers. And then it's been around for so long that so many people have strong opinions on it. And it's kind of fun to argue with people on it. So that's where my love comes from.

[33:00] Nina White: Okay. Thank you for sharing. I, you know, I, wow. It really brings me joy that cats made this impression on you at like of all shows. It makes me really thrilled. I also, it makes me think maybe I'd be curious about how you feel about this, but I also think part of my enduring love for cats and maybe the revival is proving this wrong is that I feel like cats would never be made today.

[33:30] Mike Abrams: Totally. It's such an interesting thing of like the way the, the market for theater is and change. Like there's, I'm not sure it would. Um, but it also kind of like set the tone as I've learned the history, like it was so groundbreaking back then and it started a lot of other things that happened that probably would have never become super successful or come to life if it didn't have the success it had. And I think that is where like, it's off of just poems. Yeah. Um, it's, you know, there's, there's not a lot of texts. There's not, there's no spoken word. Like it is, it's, it's a pretty interesting that like, even then it happened. But I also think part of what works is that back then there's no social media and no, like it's very word of mouth and it's a very word of mouth friendly show because it's like, I don't even know what I saw.

Right. Right. That's so true. Go see it. Cause it's weird. Cause it's really weird. Exactly. Whatever opinion you have about it, people, people have opinions about it. Exactly. Either or. Right. I feel like people aren't very neutral on cats. So you're right that it probably, it probably was like such a strong word of mouth show on both sides of the aisle. Yeah. Wow. That's really interesting. I never thought about that before, but that totally makes sense. There's been a couple of sins. Like I saw starlight for the first time in London last year, two years ago, like recently, another one where I'm like a bunch of trains that are also potentially like doing it on the side, you know, like this is, and then it's, and then I didn't know it's like a child's dream to start. I'm like, this is another just bizarre, weird, but so fun. Like I had a blast.

[35:10] Nina White: I've never seen it. And I need to see it because that's another one. I'm like, what?

[35:15] Mike Abrams: It's so fun though. It's, and it's honestly a little, it's interesting. Cause it, it holds up really well. And like a lot of the arguments are kind of still relevant of like coal versus electric and, um, in the storytelling. So it was, and then I grew up playing hockey. So to me, having a bunch of people on roller skates and like skating around was like, maybe this is the only one I could do, you know, like this, this is like in my future. If I don't have to sing, I could, I could skate around. I could do that.

[35:40] Nina White: Okay. They need to transfer that. They need, I've heard that that revival on the West end is so good.

[35:45] Mike Abrams: It's so fun, but it's also at Wembley. Like it's at a, uh, it's not like, I thought it was, I stayed in the West end. I'm like, oh, it's, we'll be there. And it's like, no, it's a 30 minute train ride. But it's such a cool venue that it was worth going.

[36:00] Nina White: That's so cool. I went when ACDC was performing at Wembley and I went with a friend who, um, was not prepared, like didn't, didn't know starlight either, but it's a very big theater fan and we're sitting on the train and there's three of us there. And I'm like, this doesn't look like a starlight, uh, audience around here, you know? And then I'm like, oh, it's ACDC. And it's like, we're the only three getting off. I mean, there was a filled theater, but like this whole train is going to ACDC and we're going to peel off to starlight express.

[36:31] Mike Abrams: Oh my gosh. The only thing from starlight express I've seen is I've seen like a video of Jane Krakowski doing, uh, I don't know, doing some number from it or like a trio. I don't know. I've seen Jane Krakowski in it on YouTube. That's all.

[36:46] Nina White: That's I mean, I got to take a look because I guess it is so cat. It seems like very cats adjacent structurally. I want to see it. There's a big, um, cats and a lot of the Andrew Lloyd Webber stuff does really well in Germany and Vienna. And I want to see any of them in German just because I think it'd be like cats in German. I could still follow. Totally. So I think it'd be really fun to do that. So that's on my, that's on my bucket list, but that's a really good idea. I need to figure that out. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. Let's do some rapid fire to, to, uh, round us out here. This is all going to be cats related. Okay. So you answered who you think you could or would want to play, but if you could, if I removed all barriers, just any cat, it doesn't matter age, gender, anything. Just so you can go on one night for one cat. Who do you want to play?

[37:37] Nina White: Victoria, Victoria, do, do the lift, do the leg part, do your ballet. It feels so beautiful and stunning.

[37:47] Mike Abrams: Who are your favorite and least favorite cats from a character perspective? Which one bugs you and which one do you like? I love this one.

[37:56] Nina White: Who bugs me? Kind of Mr. Mistoffelees. I don't really like his vibe. I find him... I don't know. But I don't love a tuxedo cat. Like a live cat. A tuxedo cat doesn't call to me personally, even in the literal world. I don't know. Mr. Mistoffelees feels like a try hard to me. I just don't... Mr. Mistoffelees choreography I also don't really like. He's doing all those jumps in second. It's really dramatic. And the song, it feels like it goes on forever and it's slow. So Mr. Mistoffelees cut to me. And it gets stuck in your head.

[38:48] Mike Abrams: And favorite?

[38:50] Nina White: Yeah, my favorite. I mean, I don't know. I'm still thinking about Skimbleshanks in the most recent revival. That's maybe recency bias, but really...

[39:00] Mike Abrams: That's okay. My answer changes based on recency bias every time I... Every time you ask this question, I'm like, yeah, it's probably this. And I'm like, no, it's actually this today. That's I think what's cool about the show. Favorite song in the show?

[39:14] Nina White: The opening number. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. I'm going to listen to it after this.

[39:21] Mike Abrams: And then I asked one fun one. So if you could stick any cat in the family and you got older, who are you putting in the family?

[39:30] Nina White: I'm putting Jenny AnyDots in the family.

[39:32] Mike Abrams: Oh, yeah.

[39:35] Nina White: My character's name is Jenny. And she does feel very Jenny AnyDots adjacent. So maybe she would have a twin.

[39:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[39:42] Nina White: Yeah. That's great. Jenny AnyDots would fit. And then I've argued at length, I don't think Grizabella's the right Jellicle choice. So I'm asking for you, Nina, who's your Jellicle choice and why?

[39:52] Nina White: I believe that Grizabella is the right Jellicle choice.

[39:57] Mike Abrams: Okay. Give me the rationale.

[39:59] Nina White: I think she's an old diva. Let her rest. That's how I feel. I think that based on what we've been presented as an audience, I feel like, yeah, Grizabella does seem like a good choice.

[40:20] Mike Abrams: Let me counter you because I think you I hope you have a Grizabella performance in your future. And when that happens, I want you to be thinking about this when you're going on that tire.

[40:31] Nina White: I'm ready.

[40:32] Mike Abrams: I think that you as Grizabella deserve to be re-accepted and have your redemption story so much. But I don't want you to go right now because you just got your family to re-accept you. And so I want you to go next year. And I don't love the idea of this entire redemption arc and this family just being like, we're finally bringing you back in the thing you've wanted for so long. And then it's like, by the way, now we're going to kill you. So I want you to have next year's. I want to send somebody else tonight so that you can spend a year with your family. And then you go next year when you've had that reunion.

[41:14] Nina White: But Grizabella to me feels like she... I don't even know. In a way, though, to me, going to the Heaviside Lair, that's the ultimate exaltation. You know? Is it really better to wait a year? The euphoria of being chosen and sent to the Heaviside Lair, to me, it outweighs whatever this mortal acceptance could be that she could have.

[41:48] Mike Abrams: That's kind of how I feel about that. But that is a good point. I have not previously considered that.

[41:54] Nina White: Well, that's what this whole show is about. I'm asking questions nobody else has ever asked.

[41:58] Mike Abrams: Right. But I will say, you told me 10 minutes ago, 15 minutes ago, that a You Got Older takeaway is to be present. And so I want Grizabella to be present and live that moment with her family and not focus on her future.

[42:16] Nina White: I hear that. I hear that. But she's saying such a great number.

[42:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[42:21] Nina White: I mean, yeah. Well, then, now, if you're making a singing competition, does she win?

[42:27] Mike Abrams: I think she does. But it's not necessarily because her singing, her ability is greater than the next person's. I believe that it's the structure that's been created for her, the number that's been given by Andrew Lloyd Webber, but let's say by God.

[42:51] Nina White: Yeah.

[42:53] Mike Abrams: The number that pours out of her is structured such that it's going to get a rise out of us. We're going to want to send her. But I don't know that it's true because everyone else is really busting their ass out there in just a different kind of way than her. So I think it's like, I think she deserves to go. Do I think that she's in absolute sense the best choice? I don't know. But do I think that she's the right choice on that night? I do.

[43:25] Nina White: I saw this. I can tell you the genesis of this joke was I saw Leona Lewis in 2016, and I walked out thinking X Factor because I was like, oh, singing competition and the pick one to win. And so if you look at it from that angle only, with no other context and nothing else of the storyline, she has a compelling package. She would have a good little pre-song story about her hardship and everything. But so would multiple other cats, if you really brought it out. And like she's put in the primetime spot last one before America votes or Britain votes or whoever votes. But the most successful X Factor people are Fifth Harmony, One Direction and all the groups that they created.

[44:12] Mike Abrams: So I'm sending Tugger and Mistoffelees together as a boy band.

[44:15] Nina White: Wow. You know what? They can have each other.

[44:21] Mike Abrams: I mean, I think that would be a powerful package. I really do.

[44:26] Nina White: Yeah. That's actually how this entire thing started.

[44:30] Mike Abrams: Interesting.

[44:30] Nina White: Because I walked out with that thought and that joke.

[44:34] Mike Abrams: That's very interesting.

[44:35] Nina White: And I was trying to figure out what boy band or girl group I could pick from the cats.

[44:40] Mike Abrams: I mean, that's a really strong one.

[44:43] Nina White: That's it. I do. I have like a runner up. Like when I watch cats, the person that impacts me the most that I'm like, oh, maybe send them. But he's a pitiful creature is Gus the theater cat.

[45:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[45:03] Nina White: That it hurts you to me. It hurts to hear him sing, to hear him speak and dance or not really dance. And I want to kind of I pity him and I love him. And I do. I feel really bad that he doesn't get chosen. I feel like it's like, just let him. You know what I mean? But it shows up with this drama. So she takes it. But next year, I feel like it's got to be Gus. Like, we got to stop. That's what I feel.

[45:36] Mike Abrams: In the voting. I do keep track. It is Grizabella at the top. She does have less than half the votes. And then it's Gus. And then there's a mixture of other people. Obviously, Mistoffelees and the Jellicle Ball got a lot of votes because of Silk's performance. And there's a few people that just voted for the character they played, I think, because they're like, I deserved it. A few other random reasons. But like, it's pretty much a two cat race there. So I think you're, you know, you're, I hope you think about this for a lot longer. That's my only goal. I want I will show I want people to just ask this question because nobody did before.

[46:10] Nina White: Yeah, I've never seen the movie that they made.

[46:13] Mike Abrams: The 2019 movie.

[46:15] Nina White: Yeah. And I was thinking I was like, well, ideally, I was like, I should watch the movie before I do the podcast. And I didn't. But now I'm like, it's on my mind.

[46:24] Mike Abrams: I would watch the 1998 movie, which is the it's not a pro shot. I think a lot of people think it's a pro shot because it feels like it, but it was actually a movie. That is much more traditional cats. The 2019 movie made some choices. I think there is there's a lot it gets a lot more hate than it deserves. I will say that.

[46:43] Nina White: Yeah, there's an uproar. That's why I'm also like shocked that I never I kept being like, I have to see it.

[46:49] Mike Abrams: It was on Netflix for a while, but I think they took it down. So I don't know where if you can, if you can find it, it's, it's not a, it's not as bad as a watch as people would make you think. But it's, they had such talented dancers, and it's cut and shot in a way that you don't get to see them as much as you probably I would like to share. That's my biggest criticism of it. But it's still, you know, it's still if you're a Cats fan, you'll I think you'll enjoy it, but it'll probably bug you because it's like, it just fueled more hate that it didn't need.

[47:16] Nina White: Right. Right. That makes sense. I'm really fascinated that Taylor Swift was like, this is a job I'm going to take.

[47:22] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Maybe she loves Cats. You got to have her on.

[47:27] Nina White: She loves I mean, if you can get her she's done one podcast in her life. She's marrying the guy that she said yes to. So I would love I would love to. I would love to have her have her on. But I have not reached Travis Kelsey level to get her on. But yeah, I am fascinated by the decision making. I know she loves Cats like the animal. And she got to write a song for it. You get to work with Andrew Lloyd Webber, like that's got to be a very cool experience for her. But she also never sang it on her entire heiress tour as the secret song. And I kept waiting for that to happen. So I was like, you could do that. You could either sing the cavity or I think it's the song's Beautiful Ghosts, whatever the one she wrote.

[48:09] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She never did it. But she clearly doesn't hate it because she acknowledged like I did have someone on the show who dressed up in full cat costume and like went kind of viral because he got her attention being so close to the stage and she kind of like did a little cat roar at him. And so she's not super anti this and everyone has done the movie was like it was a pretty cool experience. Like it's, it's still got a lot of like the music's great. The dancing's great. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's interesting that what it just added to the lore of Cats. That's really all it and it didn't absolutely you didn't need to add more lore. There's plenty there. And we just write more, right? Huh? But yeah, if you have Taylor's number, I find it in my phone and I'm free anytime she wants to make that happen.

[48:51] Nina White: Perfect. Well, this has been so fun. How can people stay in touch with you? And then we'll also link how to see you got older and get tickets. I think it was you end in April.

[49:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yes. So go see that before the closes. Yeah. Come see us down at the Cherry Lane. If you want to keep up with me, I'm on Instagram. My Instagram is I am Nina White at I'm you know, white. And yeah, and come see you got older. It's a good one.

[49:24] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This is so much fun. And I'm glad to get to hear a little bit more about it. I'm will be making my way to the Cherry Lane theater and some definitely will, you know, we'll get you you got to get to the jungle ball and you got to keep you watch the 2019 movie and one day you're going to have this like, it is Gus. It's not Grizabella. And then I know it. And I'm really close to that day. Yes, I am. I am. But yes, and all casting people I know, hey, we've got I've got a Grizabella for you.

[49:52] Nina White: Thank you.

[49:58] Mike Abrams: Thank you so much.

[50:02] Nina White: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.

[50:05] Mike Abrams: Well, thank you for coming on the show. And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown the follow along you can subscribe to an Apple podcast, Spotify, or as a podcast, social media, or check our website, thewrongcatdied.com.