This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpn.fm, to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the wrong one died. I'm the wrong one died. Welcome to

[0:28] Mike Abrams: the Ron cat died. The podcast breakdown of the cast, atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. You might know him from being on the Disney movie Newsies, but he is one of the most Jellicle people we have had on the show, performing it regionally on the US national tour five, and then directing it regionally as well. So welcome Chaz Wolcott, and thank you for joining

[0:50] Mike Abrams: I am excited to have you, because the director part of this is I'm fascinated by especially regionally. So we're gonna get there. I wanna spend a lot of time on you, building out the Jellicle world for your productions. But let's start at the beginning. Let's start your cast history. When did you first see it? Since you went on tour in 2010 I think you were first did it in 2007 was it the 1998 movie? Like, what was the introduction?

[1:15] Speaker 2: No, I was about seven years old in Ohio, and the tour came through, and I was a dancer. I had taken I'd been in dance for about four or five years at that point, but I wasn't super serious about it. But my parents were both dancers. They got me into dance class, and we saw cats, and I left and said, Mom, I want to play Mr. Mustoffice one day. I need to take another ballet class. And so I and I always hated ballet. I loved tap in jazz, but I hated ballet, and I enrolled another ballet class the next year. It took me, you know, quite a few years after that before I finally got to do it. But then I that was that was it. It was the dream. I like stated it when I was a little kid. I was mesmerized by the cats on stage. I had a VHS of that 98 cast, and wore it out multiple times. They waited by multiple ones and got a DVD back in the day. So cast has been an obsession. Probably I would say the show that put me into musical theater in general. And there's so many cats haters out there. I love saying that over and over again, because I think generationally, a lot of folks in my age group saw that show when they were a kid. That's, you know, Lion King, maybe is another one for folks that the magic of the show just drew me in, and I then I found out people could do that as a job. And I was hooked. I was like, that's the thing. And I've, you know, so that seven year old that saw cats the national tour that's created my whole life. Now, 30 years later, I'm still doing musical theater. I kind of take it all back to cats. My freshman year, I auditioned freshman year of college, I auditioned for music theater of Wichita. Was doing a production of it in Kansas, and I got it, and I got to play Mr. Soles. And that was after my freshman year of college, and then my spring break of my senior year, I was in New York City, doing some workshops and seeing shows, and they had auditions for the national tour. And I was like, This is my moment. I'm gonna go audition for it. And I did, and I actually got offered a job on the spot. Wow, at the audition to be a swing, a kitten swing, but I was still in school. I had like, six weeks left, and it was one of those very intense programs that I probably wouldn't have gotten my degree if I didn't finish those six weeks and so I politely told them, oh my gosh, this is my dream. But I have to say, No, I have six weeks left. And then it just so happened that the person that was playing mestophilles endured an injury the day before I graduated, they called me and they said, Hey, what was the date that you're available? And I said, Tomorrow, about noon. And they said, Could you fly out tomorrow night? And I did, and so I joined the national tour upon I, like graduated, walked across the stage and walked onto a flight and joined the National Tourism stuff elites for what ended up being in and out of it for about three years. So, yeah, wild, a wild journey to get Wow.

[4:10] Mike Abrams: Okay, so let's, let's go. I got some follow up questions, so I want to start. So this has been, you've been manifesting this since seven years old. And what was your like? Did you have like this reaction of, as a freshman, like you're now able to do this professionally. It's like internship season, and you're gonna do your summer stock, or whatever the original version of that is, and and you get a chance to do cats, and not just cats, but you get a chance to not just be like a swing, but do the role that you dreamed of right away. I mean, this is freshman year, like, this is the first thing you're doing professionally, right? I would assume at that point,

[4:49] Speaker 2: yeah, it was my first professional job. Wow, and you and I got to do the show with Dana solomondo, who was a swing on Broadway, and Billy Johnstone, who I think they were. Both swings, but they played also certain, you know, they went in and out of swinging and playing company members. And so I learned the original choreography and got all the original direction and ideas of the show. It was so incredible. I remember I got to fly in on like a big Starburst as Mr. Most, which is still the only time I ever got a flight. But it was, I mean, I was 19, I had no idea how cool all this stuff was, but I was so excited. I mean, it was still my dream show, and I did know it was very cool, but looking back now, I'm like, holy moly, I'm also an educator, and so thinking of my first year students, and how very few of them would get to do something that awesome. I mean, that's just such a lucky break. Yeah, it was just right place, right time. I was the right thing they were looking for in that moment. It was so awesome. And to get to do it with that team, I got to spend the whole summer there and have this wonderful experience. And we'll talk about this later, but I actually, like, full circle, got to go back and direct and choreograph cats there last year, and that was such an awesome I mean, it's my first time there as a director, choreographer. Just like my first show there was, the performer was, was cats. So it was, it was a really awesome full circle moment for me. This show kind of keeps doing more full circles over Yes, and it's always meant the world to me. It's my favorite entity. And it, I think it still continues to inspire new generations and new new performers all over it is such a unique show, and no other show is quite like it. And I think the magic behind it is so important, even in those regional settings, maybe even more in those regional settings, because you're opening up access to a show that many people in those communities maybe have never seen before. And so, you talked about the direction of it and like, how to bring that in, I think it's imperative in every production, for all of that magic that I witnessed when I was a seven year old, to come into the show. And so I hold it really as like, it's very truthful to me about what the show should be and what has to be in there, and what people have to feel when they see it. And I think there's so, like I said, so many haters out there, but I'm one of those people who is through and through, a lover of cats and just the musical. I actually am allergic to the animal, but I love the musical through and through,

[7:15] Mike Abrams: okay. I mean, I agree. I think the the hate on it is it's an easy punch line. I mean, it's always Oh yeah, Z punch line. And I think it's weird and confusing if you don't unpack it. And so for someone who sees it one time, if you don't, if you missed a little, or you kind of weren't fully in or had other stuff going on in life, you probably didn't fully grasp what you're seeing. But every time someone does it, it is crazy to me to see the like hook that it brings into so many people when they get to perform. I want to go back so you got the opportunity on the spot to do it, but you had to say no, because of school. Is there like, this is such a foreign thing to me. But is it the we need somebody right now, and if you can't do we're not gonna hold the spot for you or even offer it later, so they just kind of like, put you in a file. And then it just was very fortuitous that it was the day that you graduated that they were like, Yeah, we actually still need you. Yeah. How that works, essentially, yeah.

[8:13] Speaker 2: I mean, that was you nailed it. It was they had lost somebody as a kitten swing. They were having the auditions for like, the next leg, the next year, okay? And it just so happens that right before this audition, they had lost a kitten swing, and not like they didn't misplace him, but, yeah, left it, left the show. And so they, they didn't even tell us they were auditioning that at that moment, we thought we were auditioning for the fall, and which is why I was there, because I was available in the fall, you know. And so they're like, hey, we'd like for you to join the cast. Now, are you available? And I was like, no, not of it. You know, it was pretty crazy. So that was a different track. They filled that track. And then a few months later they also had another, like an injury situation, and then that was the one I was able to fill in. So, um, you know, the show is so hard and so difficult on your body, and that in the Touring is so difficult on your mind. So, you know, there was some turnover sometimes, which, like I said, Right place, right time, I was available to jump in. It was pretty wild again, right place, right time. So lucky to get that right out of college. Again, as an educator, I say the same thing where I'm like most of my college graduates don't just hop onto a national tour right afterwards, even, even if they're incredibly talented. So I got very, very, very lucky and very, very thankful. That was an awesome experience to learn the show on the road and get put into it. I learned most of the Tour version of things in a dressing room in Minneapolis, carpeted dressing room with our dance captain, Brad landers, and then eventually got to do the full rehearsal process with Richard Stafford, the director of the tour. So I've, you know, I've been able to experience different takes on the show as well, different directions, different leaders that, you know, bring, even if it's the same choreography, Jillian's original choreography, it still has its own differences. Yeah. And I've also done the show regionally with Jacob Prince, so I've had, like. Three completely different creative teams that have kind of taught me the show, which is really awesome, and I've gotten lots of different perspectives on it. So, you know,

[10:08] Mike Abrams: let's, let's dig into that, because that's where, that's where I want to start this, because I want to hear some tour stories and everything else, and we're going to get into a lot of the directing piece of it. I think this question is actually part of what I'm going to ask you later about the directing, but when we think about the world building and the storytelling, not the choreography, not the dance like those are all nuanced, not a podcast format, anyways. And also, I couldn't tell you the first thing about any of those dance moves, but I can tell you about this is the backstory. This is what we go here. These two are related. These two are not they're supposed to be mad at this person. We're supposed to accept this person, as you had multiple different versions. You know, you have the, I'm gonna do it for three weeks in Wichita, freshman year. I'm going on tour, and gonna jump in for an injury very fast. And then it's a I'm gonna probably join. I think it was the 2011 you started to join, like the full group, full time, as most athletes tell me, through the differences of what you are essentially given for most athletes, like, how deep do they go when you're doing it that freshman year versus when you're gonna go bus and truck for a full year? Yeah.

[11:14] Speaker 2: I mean, I have been lucky that I think all the teams that I had ever worked with were all very interested in telling the story that is kind of not written in the lyrics, necessarily, but the stuff you're talking about the sort of Legend of cats. I also will say that I think some of what I know about cats is sort of this unofficial, passed down lore of the show where you know, was it the director that specifically said this, or was it implied? Or did the person who played Old Deuteronomy, who'd played it before, bring that in? Yeah, you know, the swing that came in to do like, you know, you learn like, you just hear things sometimes, and people just kind of throw out a phrase about, you know, a character that you're like, Oh, I didn't, okay, I didn't know that about Grizabella, you know. And you just, you, you put these things together. And so I think I have a picture of what cats is supposed to be based on the variety of experiences that I've had with the show, and seeing the show and hearing from different creative teams. I don't think mine is probably anywhere near what the original team necessarily, in wanted or said, but I think it's so it's like these stories are sort of like passed down through generations of performers, and they've created these narratives, these relationships, you know, I've even listening to your podcast. I've realized, you know, I listened to this amazing interview with Terence man, and I was horrified to find out that half the stuff I know about he's like, Oh, I've never heard of that, you know. And I was like, what you know, so just assume that was, like, you know, the original team, and they're selling us all these things. But really, I think it's some of it has been created by the performers themselves, as they're trying to make sense of what's happening on stage and create relationships. I think some of those friendships and allies and romantic connections and whenever we're created by the performers. And I actually think that's kind of beautiful, because where the story isn't super specific, think the performers have kind of added so much of that specificity into it. Do you know, they've added these relationships and these rivalries? And you know, you know, I obviously feel as most awfully there's some kind of weird rivalry with Tugger, because I say he's a terrible boar as most awfully is and but then Tugger sings a whole song about Mustafa. You know, there's that's interesting to unpack. And I think with different Rum Tum tuggers that I've done the show with, we've had different takes on that. You know, some of us were actually kind of rivals, and some of us were really good friends, and that probably indicated how we treated each other on stage. What I love about cats is there is a lot of flexibility in what's written in this, you know, in the there is not really even a script. In the score, there's not it. All that stuff isn't specified out, you know. So I don't think any of the teams ever kind of skipped over any of that stuff because of time. I think we always tried to get all of that in, I just don't think all of it's formal. I think some of it comes in when they, you know, they say, oh, you know, well, of course, Demeter runs over to grizzabella first, because they, they don't they, you know, they used to be best friends. And you're like, oh, Demeter and grizzabella used to be best friends, you know. You just like, hear these things. And I don't know if they're making that up in the moment, or if that's Jillian Lynn said. I don't know who came up, you know, I don't know where the origins of these things are, but I will say, as a 19 year old, I thought all of it was 100% you know, like true and serious, and was initially dramaturgically created by the team, you know, in the West End. So to even hear some of these interviews and go, Oh my gosh, they didn't talk about any of that stuff, it's fascinating, but so true. But some of those things that I hold really close, I'm sure they're like, Oh, we never talked about that in Broadway, or we never talked about in London. So it's interesting, but I think I got to hear a lot about misto Phillies from Billy John Stone in Wichita, who had covered the role. I got to hear a lot about misto police from Richard Stafford. Who was a dance captain of the show. And, of course, I got to hear a ton about misophys from Jacob Brent, who's like the iconic one. And I've got to spend so much time talking to them about sort of the quirks and charismatic qualities of mistoolies. I would like to think that mine some amalgamation of all their ideas of who the character should be. And now, like, when I get to direct the show, it's, I'm sure it's a, you know, we've every every production is similar that has these, its own DNA, which, again, I think it's maybe the beauty of it as a performer, that flexibility gives you so much stuff to play with on stage. You have these very specific steps and shapes you have to create with your body, and you have to be in a specific light spot, you know, whatever. But so much of the relationship can be played with with the other characters on stage. And I think that's the improv of that is was my favorite part is the My Favorite show I've ever done, because there was so much specificity, yet so much improvisational opportunity in the show too. And so, you know, the differences are plentiful, like tons of tons of different things are mentioned. And you know, I didn't feel like I was doing the same production at all, and any of them. Because I think, I think people like to cherry pick what they remember about their experience and what they passed down. And, you know, of course, we like learn the same steps, but the meaning behind certain things and the quotes that they would quote from Jillian Lynn, and just like little things that I think of. But, you know, maybe another, another person who did cats for years and years and years, have never heard titties to the wind darling. But I assume that's a pretty famous one, you know. So anyway, there's just, there's lots of little things that happen in in cats rehearsals that I think are specific to that creative team and that cast, and maybe are passed down. Some of the ideas are passed down, but a lot of it is shifted and molded and changed and adapted. And I think maybe that's why the show is so confusing for people. Yeah, no, but it's also one of the beautiful things about it.

[17:09] Mike Abrams: I think it's what also creates some of the fandom. Because there's, yeah, there's so much like the fan. I think the fans probably created just as much as the character and the performers. I do think there's two things, I think that this show, I'm convinced that might get me in trouble, but I'll say it, and I'm fine. Oh, I love one of them is one of I just convinced that the era that this was created was such a drug induced era, yes, that I'm sure most of this was either not talked about or was talked about in maybe a way that they just were like, Yeah, sure, and then forgot about it the next day. And so I think that there's probably a piece of that. The other part that I think is so unique to cats is that they're cats. It's not humans, it's not people, whereas it would be very different if you were like, well, this could be an orgy on stage, you know, like, that's a very different play or musical today, if you do that with humans, but that's what the ball is, right? Like, there's some of these assumptions that you can make. Like, the whole Victoria coming of age story is a different story if you do it with a human on stage, right? So I think they got away with a lot of this. Like, well, they could be sisters, they could be lovers, they could be this, because they're all cats and who knows. Like, they're all strings, essentially. And I think that got them a lot of the like, they didn't have to think all that through, because it wasn't really material to what they were trying to and it is what created, I think the fandom, or at least part of the fandom, there's obviously way more to the fandom. There's the dance and, you know, it's such a incredible costumes, yeah, costumes, so many things, so many parts to it. But if you go to like the Wikipedia page, the theories, the reason I agreed to this show from day one as someone who did not know it almost at all, you know, like I kind of made a joke and had a punch line, and I I found so much content that I was like, Wait a second, if you take this as truth and this is truth, or these can't be possible. If these two things are true, it's just endless. And that's what actually fascinated me most about this show, was being able to say, Well, hold on, if you do it this way, it's not going to change the dance number. It's not going to change the end of the story. It's not going to change this. But it does make that number really interesting if you watch it from that lens, or the looks that happen all these things when I saw it, after doing 100 episodes of the show, I finally got to see it again on stage. I saw the six tour, and I could not get over the well, wow, these two did this, and this is over here, and I would have never thought about that in viewing one. And that's why I think there's so many people, you know, I interviewed someone who they saw the show 80 times or something in the revival. I mean, you can do that because you get a very different experience

[19:50] Speaker 2: each Oh, yeah. But I think that also is so it would be so specific to whatever cast you saw, you know. And like, I know that, you know, I dated someone and. The show. So obviously, that person and I are probably going to have a different relationship than two people that played those characters in another show, you know, like, I mean, those, yeah, but that's, you can't help but neces, you know, those, especially in the background, when people are just crawling around and, you know, oh, those two cats are ways together. Well, yeah, they happen to be best, you know, I think some of that stuff is probably, you know, that's what I think is kind of special about it. And that's what I love, the fan fiction stuff, because you could, like, create these things just based on one performance, and you're like, oh my gosh, wait, what are we always together? I didn't even notice that. You know, whatever I do, remember one thing that I think is controversial is, I know I've been told multiple times from from different creative team members, is that most awfully easy and Victoria are like, in some way, connected, like boyfriend, girlfriend. I was told once, I was told once prince and princess of the tribe. I mean, you know, but to me, that doesn't really make any sense with any of the plot that we do know is in there. Most awfully doesn't really ever besides the invitation, doesn't really do much with Victoria. She obviously has her moments in the ball that have nothing to do with stop police. And so there's some interesting theories there, too. I mean, I was always fascinated why they would say we were kind of a little bit cool. And then to me, we, I mean, we break up after the invitation, I'm not sure, but we never really crossed paths again. So it's

[21:17] Mike Abrams: all the Tugger, all the tug of police, tuxtofolis, that's, that's all the rumors and half of the graphics

[21:23] Speaker 2: Parker and stuff, please. Yeah, and that is an interesting one. I definitely think something is going on yesterday. Sure. I've never, honestly, I've never been given a ton of backstory between the two of those characters, which is wild because he sings a whole song about my stuff, please. I

[21:40] Mike Abrams: i wish i could find it quickly. I wouldn't. I can't do it, but I did look up at the fan fiction. If you go to fan fiction, oh, yeah, oh, I've read some of these, mostly about that. It's a high percentage of all of the fan fiction about cats is about the two of them. And it's, yeah, it's, it gets interesting. It was, uh, it was one of the first things I did when I did the show was I did my most athletes episode when I was just actually debating why each cat was more worthy, before I started interviewing people, and I I read some on on an episode. And it is, it's interesting. It is a it's a deep dive, but it is kind of a that, that story arc makes sense to me because you're singing about each other, you kind of have some moments on stage together that, like, it's written into the show in some capacity, so that one's there, but all the other ones, like the like, you said, Victoria mustafalies, or some of there's so many others, like, I think the a lot about Victoria and Grizabella or the grizzabels relation to a bunch of them, they're not clearly Written in there. You don't get Roosevelt on stage that far to really be able to dig in, okay? And

[22:46] Speaker 2: no dialog, yeah, no dialog with her, really, besides with besides Demeter. I mean, no one else really gets to really relate with her. We're gonna

[22:53] Mike Abrams: take a quick break, and then we back for more of the wrong cat died. This is our pivot point to what I want to talk about, which is your directing. So you've done it four times that I have here, 2017 and 2022, at the interwebs theater. You did it full circle with Wichita in 2023, and then, most recently, Suncoast Broadway Dinner Theater, which was when we're recording this about a month ago. So I want to talk about what, how much direction do you give in that piece? So let's talk about the if you're sitting down, do you do a story time and give them their three words and do like, what is that? What is the detail to this? Actually, all of those

[23:31] Speaker 2: things you could just be you could step in for me. You have all the ideas. I do take the three word that have kind of been passed down through history. I give that out on day one, and I actually have a thing that I call cat story time. And I sit down with the cats and I tell them my version of the events, and tell them sort of what I know, but the first thing I usually do, or after we'll do a little bit of story time, and then I'll ask them to sort of line themselves up in like age order of what they think. Most of the time, they don't have a ton of history with the show, which is really exciting. And so sometimes they'll, you know, they'll kind of put, like Old Deuteronomy, will probably put themselves at the ages, you know, the highest age, or whatever. But it's really interesting to kind of look at that and see where they think they are. And then me go, maybe you should go over here, you should go over here, and you should, you know, and then I kind of establish that, and then I go, Okay, let's do the same thing with like, power or kind of stature in the tribe, like, where would you think you rank, sort of in the tribe, in terms of, like, Who would we want out there, you know, defending us. And that's another interesting experiment. Also has to do with age a bit as well, but, and so we kind of do that, and then I am a big felinity person. I think felonity In the show is the make or break. Felinity, obviously, is like just acting like a cat, but having people. Think about where a cat reacts from, you know, unfortunately, we can't have those CGI tails on stage. But, you know, tails, if you can get your tail to fly up, somehow we react from your stomach, your ears can perk up. Like, how does a cat respond to things? And so something that most of those directors that I got to work with did, and then I passed down to any cast I worked on the show with is, you know, having them crawl around the space and find how to be a cat and how to look like a cat, and how to react. I'll make huge noises or throw something at them, or whatever, and have not them but hear them and and have them react as a cat would. And it's so silly, and it feels so like theater school silly, but it really is a huge difference maker in the getting the humans to just kind of embody it. Because at first, everyone's like, Oh my gosh, we're doing cat. And they get their rehearsal tail on, and they're like, What am I doing? What did I sign up for? This is so silly, but really getting some time on that, and I spend some time on it. I mean, I will spend quite some time doing some flintity exercises and talking about the story. To me, when I've seen productions of cats that didn't quite land. For me, it's always because when I look around the stage, there's just humans sitting on the stage watching each other. Yeah, even just like the way they sit sometimes, or the way they move around, they just don't even seem to be trying to embody a different type of animal. And at the core of the show, one of the most interesting parts visually is watching a bunch of humans act like cats, right? Like that. Like at the end of the day, if we're not doing that, no one's gonna get any of the story. If we're, they're just like, why is that human sitting in a unit Dart with a tail? You know? So I think if we can embody that, I think that's the most amazing thing. I have this great picture from the production I did in New Hampshire during the house cat section of top of Act Two, where the cats are crawling around the house, which is one of my favorite parts of the show. There were all these adults with their iPhones out, like taking pictures of these two cats crawling around up on a banister, and there was this little girl right in between them, and her face and the picture I took. I didn't even mean to take a picture of this girl, but I saw it. I was really taking a picture of how many adults were taking pictures on their phone. I was like, Good lord, put your phone away. You know, as I had my phone out taking a picture of them. But I was taking this picture, and I saw this little girl, and the little girl's eyes are just like, so wide, because she, in that moment, was like, like, she knows they're not cats, yeah. She just had that like, moment of disbelief because they were acting like cats, yeah. And I was like, she got the magic. Everybody else, put your stupid phone away, but like, she but it was like, so to me, if that's not present, if those little kids don't have a moment of going, Wait a minute. Oh, no, they can't be cats. They're not cat. No, cats aren't that big, you know. But if they see the sets oversized, and if they just have a moment of suspending their disbelief, then we've won, you know. And so I think that, I think, to me, that stuff is so important. So that's kind of how I start the process. Yes, we do little story time. We do little hierarchy and and age looks, and then validity stuff. What's

[28:07] Mike Abrams: the percentage like? If you of the rehearsal process, the whole thing that I would assume the hot, this is my guess, highest percentage is the choreography and the singing and like staging and making sure, especially with how much movement is, is like, they're not, they're in the right spot. They're not gonna kick somebody. But what's the percent of that versus the felonity, versus the story time? Like, if you had to break that out?

[28:32] Speaker 2: Um, I mean, I definitely think, because there's so much choreography that ended up taking over a ton of the process. But I think that I would, I would look at once, everything's set right, and we're like, ready, and we're kind of, like, running the show, what do I give notes on is always exclusively validity and story, okay? Like, I will occasionally be like, Hey, you're on the wrong count on this thing, you know? But like, it is hardly ever that it's like, what does it mean? Where is Grizabella? Where are we looking? What are we talking about? Why are you sitting on your booty? Cats don't sit on their butt, like, whatever like it is. I am very nitpicky about them looking, like cats on stage and, like, really physically showing us what the story and the relationships are. And so, like, you know, sometimes I'll be in the getting in the nitty gritty about dance notes, but at the end of the day, like, that's what I mean. So yes, I think a bulk of the rehearsal process has to be spent on choreography, because there's so much music and there's never a scene, you know. But for a show that has no scenes, the amount of notes that I give on relationships and on physical you know, like, embodiment of relationships, is very high. You know, some dance related shows would never have anything like that, but I love that. I think that's kind of the glue that holds the show. Yeah, it can't just be a bunch of dance numbers. You know, for sure, be like a dancer the story,

[29:51] Mike Abrams: it has to tell it or especially with the way, I still want to change the ending, but the way you get to the ending if you don't tell that story. Very well, then it's almost confusing, because you have to see that animosity early on, or it doesn't land later, when there's the redemption, yeah?

[30:09] Speaker 2: And she can't have any redemption if we're not completely denying her through the whole show. Yeah, there can't. There can't be the moment where she finally gets vulnerable enough to say, touch me. I know it's so easy to leave me alone and just forget about me. But I need you. I need you. And then we go, Oh, wow. She really needs us. She's really begging for us to help her, and this is what we've like. This is the vulnerability she's never willing to show you. Know before that she just kind of walked away when we put up our walls, and she didn't really fight for us to pay attention to her. If that stuff isn't all visible on the stage, and it's not in the script, necessarily, some of it, but it's not all in there, and so we have to visually show it, or else we don't earn any of it. We don't earn any of the any care that we could have for the story, or any empathy we'd have for the characters, totally, unless we unless we care about them, unless we see all that story, which is has to be told through the physicalization. Luckily, cats, when we're embodying cats, you know, cats are not shy about showing you how they feel about things. You know, more so than humans. Humans have very nuanced reactions to things. Cats are, you know, they will hiss at you, or scratch you, or, like, stick up their back like a little haunted house cat, you know. I mean, they, you know, like they, they, they've definitely stick their booty and their tail in your face. I mean, cats have a way of showing you how they feel, and so, you know, there is, there are definitely options to show that physical embodiment of the story. But it's so it's so important. And if you spend all of your time worrying about the dances and cleaning the dances like the dances will look great, but they won't mean any Yeah,

[31:40] Mike Abrams: for sure, yeah. Especially with a story like this, you need it. It's so critical.

[31:46] Speaker 2: And I think that's why this show is very commonly a director slash choreographer kind of situation now, because I think that they tie together like you can't just have a choreographer create movement that has no like direction to it or meaning. And so I think, I think I've seen, especially regionally, there's, like, a lot of times where it's a director slash choreographer, it's one person doing or one team kind of working on the same thing, whereas in most musicals, a director to choreographer would sort of be separate people doing somewhat separate things, I mean, of trying to accomplish the same thing. But I think one of the reasons this show kind of gets passed down to one person a lot of the time is because they want to make sure everything's aligning together. You know, I think the original team, of course, worked together and unified and stuff, but the show, the director wouldn't have anything to do, yeah, in most of the rehearsal process, everyone's on stage doing, you know, the romantic Tiger dance break. I

[32:40] Mike Abrams: do notice that as I've looked at resumes and stuff, and I kind of had that assumption, and the other thought of me was someone who works in the business world. I was like, Well, maybe it's just cost cutting, yeah, yes, which, maybe it's a little bit of both, that too, that too. But it does make sense in a show like this that there is that combination. I want to go back to story time. So when you do story time, do you have it written out, or do you just like, is it top of your head? Do you have like, an outline?

[33:03] Speaker 2: I don't. I definitely talk. I don't have it written out. Maybe I should. That'd be an interesting essay. But I I talk through it's, it's, it's very conversational, right? It's not necessarily that I'm trying to prove something to them. I try to share the things that I've heard about the story, and I think a big part of it for me is kind of starting from Grizabella, and starting from Old Deuteronomy, and kind of building out relationships and the webs there, and trying to help people center what their thought is in this relationship. And what you know when Grizabella enters the stage, how does, how does their character feel? I don't. They don't have to necessarily understand how everyone feels, especially the kittens like. They don't necessarily even know who Isabella is. They've heard about her, whatever. And so what is your relationship to Grizabella? What is your relationship to Old Deuteronomy? And then ideally, we would parse out, sort of, what is your relationship to all of these cats that come out, you know. And as we're staging each number kind of individually, like, when I get to Buster for Jones, I have certain cats then, like, Okay, you're obsessed with Buster for Jones. And then there's people who I'm like, you probably don't really care about Buster for Jones, because in your three words is, you know, whatever the either apathetic or over it, you know. So you kind of over in the side grooming. You don't necessarily care what Buster Jones has to say. And then obviously Jenny Andy dots is obsessed with Buster for Jones, given the context of her singing the song. So, you know, I mean it. I think developing relationships is, I think, the most important part of that story time, and trying to get people to start to relate. And that's why I do it right away. I usually do it before we even stage anything, because before we even get going, I want people to know, like, who they're looking at. You know, when you're dealing with a play, you're like, Oh, this is my brother that I'm speaking to in this scene, or This is My Neighbor, what you know? But in this show, it's like, you just see these names and you get three words about them. And, you know, there's so much to be filled in, so I want to at least fill in the face. Things that I think are pretty agreed upon in the cats universe, you know, the big picture things, I hope at least in my cats universe, they're agreed upon. And then, you know, I'll say, and, you know, in my opinion, maybe, but, you know, and add in little things like that. But yeah, I mean, it's, I think it's the best way to kind of get things rolling so, and I also think it sets an expectation with the cast that I'm always going to care about that, and it's not something I'm adding in later, because, you know, it looks like we don't have a story. Like, I want to be like, no, no, that's we're starting from a place of like, there is a story in a plot, in a community of cats that are related to each other. I actually had somebody bring up this debate recently with me where they said, you know, aren't they all strays coming from all over different places? Don't they not know each other? And I go, Oh, no, no, they all know each other. Hey, cool. Don't they live different places? And I was like, Well, you know, yes, I was like, but I think it's mostly the London area. And I was like, I think they all know each other. And I think they've all they come every year and, you know, but it was like this big difference as someone's done this, done the show, and they were like, Oh, I just kind of thought they all just arrived. And I was like, Oh, well, that would be a terrible place to start a musical from, because no one would know each other, you know. So I was like, even if that's what they wanted. I was like, I hate that, because then we don't have any pre relationships with each other. But yeah, I think the relationships are the key. You know, there people will say there's no plot, or there's no story, and I completely disagree with that. But if there's no relationships evident on the stage, then I can see why people would say, say that. You know, well, I

[36:31] Mike Abrams: think that, as someone who there's no like sitcom plot is what I would say. There's no like, very neat and tidy rom com, I know what's going to happen, conflict or resolution. It's much more of a world building. You get to experience what they're experiencing with this kind of loose through line ending with a little bit of a plot. So I get that, but it sounds like in your story time, you're going through the the story as they do as the show. So it's like, start here, and then we're going to go to to Jenny, any dots, and then we're going to go here, and in that you kind of add, okay, you're all the kitten, so you're listening to Jenny, and you're here. You don't care about bus for is that? That is essentially it. I would love to have you, like, write it out, or just, I would love to be a fly on the wall. It's one of my dreams to come to one of these rehearsals and, oh my God, let me just add some stuff. Let me add some lore here that you're Oh yeah. Well,

[37:27] Speaker 2: and that's what I like. I think, I think what is nice, like I said, generationally, right? Like a lot of people that I work on the show with have never done the show, and maybe they've seen it, but they're not as you know. They certainly aren't as verse in it, maybe as you are, or that I am. And so it's nice to, like, give them a little push off, and then I swear, like, day two or three, they come in. Okay? I read this fan theory that, you know, and I'm like, Uh huh. There it is, like, you know, because I think it but it also just gives them permission to do some exploration and figure some stuff out and make some decisions for themselves and and not just play a cat. Yeah,

[38:03] Mike Abrams: it's, it is crazy, exactly. Not just fan theory, but as the last couple, probably year, year and a half, I've gotten messages. I start learning about productions, because I'll get messages or I'll just hear like they're a bunch of people listening to these episodes. Because it's, it's a version of that, like it's, forget me. You get to hear someone who did it in 2016 or you get to hear from Terence man, or, you know, some version of this that maybe you hadn't experienced. And then if you really want to go, you go deep into the fan theories. Like, there are some super fans who have the part I love about them, but is where I differ, is they have very strong opinions one way or the other. Whereas I love the fact that that I don't know if it's right or wrong. I like the idea that, like, this is what I think, but, yeah, I want an answer. Like, I would love to have an answer, but I don't think we're gonna get one. I don't think

[38:54] Speaker 2: there is one. I think you're very right when you talked about the era that they that the big cats created in. I think some of it is, like, I don't really think there were really specific answers. And so I think, you know, I think people have their strong convictions, and I do too, I guess about certain things, you know, there are certain things that I'd be like, That is wrong, you know. But I think, I think it's funny to also just think, like, we get that worked up about something that probably there isn't really a correct answer, you know, nothing It was really never thought about or cared about, maybe possibly. And so it's interesting. But I mean to me, as when I was an actor, I think what was really fun about that is it gave me a lot of freedom, and that was fun to play with, which has probably only developed more fan theory than the show is called freedom that actors have

[39:41] Mike Abrams: in it, yeah, which I think is cool. I love that part of it, because, yeah, you get to have some fun with a friend, or if you're dating somebody who's not a character that your cat should be dating, you know, like, if you think about it, from the personality wise, you get a different relationship. And I think that's, that's the coolest part about this show, and why, I think also, people love doing it. Is that it's not hit my mark. Do my line? Yes, there's 8000 I mean, there's so many versions of and there's

[40:05] Speaker 2: that part of it in terms of choreography, right? There's, like, there's so much expected of you from a choreographic standpoint and vocal standpoint. I mean, this is one of the harder scores in musical theater, too. And so, you know, there are, like, lofty expectations of what you need to bring to the show, but then there is this little element of freedom that you don't get in most musicals that I think is really fun. And what I, what I always say, is, like, it was the easiest show to do for a long time, even though it's physically draining, yeah, because it wasn't the same every day, and we could, like, play a little bit within the within the confines, for sure, but it, you know, and I think that freedom is is really a lot of actors get bored and stagnant doing the same show over and over again, but cats, it's very hard to get bored always. Is always something to play with, you know? So

[40:53] Mike Abrams: let's ask you the question that you can you complete the fifth but as someone who has your story time you get to, like, dictate this for people going to see the show. Do you have any hot takes? Do you have any, like, controversial theories that you are like, You know what? I don't know if this was ever told to me, but like, I'm in on this theory.

[41:13] Speaker 2: I was expecting you to ask me the big question. Oh, I was ready with that one. So I was that might be my hot take. It's not that hot. I'm going to warn you, don't, don't get too excited. But okay, are there any theories that I buy into? Okay, an interesting one that I mean this is kind of like activation warning for listeners. I'm going to talk about some like assault things that might be not your favorite thing, so just skip it ahead a few minutes. But there's, there's this conversation storyline about maybe demeters relationship with Macavity that maybe involves, like a traumatic past. I'll leave it at that that I 100% understand and think makes perfect sense in the storyline, but it's interesting, like as sort of a more trauma informed human that tries to make theater that is a little bit more considerate of the humans in the room than maybe it was in the past. I try not to bring that conversation into rehearsal, because I don't want that. I just don't know that we need to go there. But I do think that they I usually mention kind of honestly, yeah, I'll mention that some people think that this maybe is where Demeter is coming from at the beginning of the show, even that she gets scared in the headlights because something maybe just happened with Macavity. And the reason that she's always freaking out when she thinks of Macavity coming in is because there's some kind of traumatic past with him. I don't think it's of Yeah, and to me that makes sense. I think that that ties in with what we see from Demeter in the show. I don't necessarily know that that was ever dictated, but I think was, though,

[42:59] Mike Abrams: because, okay, well, that's, that's the part that I found. I've used that example, and is a huge trigger warning, because it is a Yeah. Like, it's a Yeah. But I've used that as the example, which is, when you talk about how weird The show is, a little bit about how there isn't a story, but yet there is a story. I've always kind of go back to, like, the one consistent thing that nobody has argued, is that story, and that, to me, is also a little weird that, like, we're not sure if Tugger and misophys are together, we're not sure if this is happening. We're not sure if that's happening, but her fear of Macavity is very clear. It's one of the few like every there's no debate on that. And I've also found that part a little strange. I think it's more of just like the skittish nature of you have to play like that whole song dictates on the two of them having almost opposite personalities from that same moment, that it does feel like one of the few things that they did write out a little bit more, which is weird that that's the one they chose to write out more like you could have built out a lot of other storylines in more depth, like, what's going on with skimble Shanks, his backstory, Besides, he's on time, you know, like, like, I could have had more there. You could have what's he doing when he's busy and, and that's the one that we get, like, depth on that nobody debates. And I find that fascinating. And it's in a weird way. Well,

[44:17] Speaker 2: it might be, because, I mean, that's what I said. Like, I 100% buy into that, I think would make sense with what is written and like it does seem like they were they wrote that intentionally. Some I'm trying to think of like theories. Now, can I give

[44:33] Mike Abrams: you one that I want to have real that I just think is fun? Yeah, I think the because I know bus for Jones is one that's cut out from Royal Caribbean and a bunch of other product like, he's kind of a afterthought. And I know that there's the relationship with Joey Lorem, right? There's some connection there, right? Is that? Am I wrong? There

[44:55] Speaker 2: he with Buster, yeah, and Joey, Lauren, uh. I mean, yeah, I would maybe go for Jenny anymore. Jenny, yeah, I was jelly. I

[45:05] Mike Abrams: was always thinking both Jenny and jelly is kind of hatred of Grizabella. I thought could have been a broken love triangle with buster. Oh, wow. See, this is, oh my gosh. I'm gonna have to unpack that one in my brain. There's no written on that. This is me. No, this is pure me. I love it that I want to, I want to add some stuff to the story. I

[45:23] Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go. I think, see Buster, I will say that's one of those cats that I sort of don't think deeply about. I kind of think we kind of like get what Buster for it? Yeah, I've been given Buster Jones a piece.

[45:36] Mike Abrams: He's fully out of Royal Caribbean Cruises. They cut him. Yeah, yeah. Shock. It's, it makes sense. I He's an interesting guy.

[45:44] Speaker 2: I will say I know that there are folks who kind of connect jelly and Gus, and I have always felt that that relationship is that of like a nurse, caregiver type situation, like, that's how I direct it, but I have seen it directed other ways, and I, you know, like, almost like wife, that's like mine. And I've never, I don't I feel like the gentle caretaker of a hospice patient is how I kind of feel that relationship goes. I

[46:18] Mike Abrams: have not thought about them romantically,

[46:20] Speaker 2: no, I know people do that. Yeah, well, I think people play it that way. Sometimes, maybe that's just my maybe that maybe it's just my interpretation of their performances. But yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I buy into many, but I do find it fascinating what people find in that show. Because, you know, to me, like, especially from a directing standpoint, there's so many messages that I'm trying to send, and then people will catch, like, this thing, and I will know exactly why that thing exists, and I'll be like, Oh no, it's oh, you know, like, so in this recent production, I'm, I'm kind of adding my own choreography into the show, right with as I work on the show and and doing my own version of things, which is fun and interesting to play with, but then it creates these other narratives that I will go, Oh my gosh, no, that you know. So I make skimble Shanks a tap number, usually, and I've always felt the music calls for the frenetic tapping. It's interesting. The 2019 movie I did that did that, like, yes, I've always wanted it to be a tap number, and so anyways, but I've done it a few times, and this last time, I had these two fantastic tap dancers in the cast who I kind of gave a feature to in the skimble Shanks, like, in one of the verses of skimble shanks. And somebody's like, now, are they like, are they a couple or something? And I was like, no, they're just like, and so it's like fan fiction can be created from a logistical thing that happens sometimes, you know, so we call it the pounce of teaser, tap, break teaser in that, in that particular production. But I don't think pounds will rumple teaser are connected, really, in that are connected, really. And, yeah, so, but I you know, see, this is how sometimes fan fiction gets created, right? Okay, somebody that saw that production might think that balanceable and rumble teaser are an item, you know. So I don't think that. I bet you haven't heard that one before, though,

[48:19] Mike Abrams: that is not one I've ever thought about or considered by but I think that because you didn't see it, I haven't seen it. I didn't get to come down to Florida. I didn't get the invite I would have.

[48:30] Speaker 2: Because, I mean, is you wonder. So you wonder if, like, maybe Tugger sings most awfully is because Terence man was a great singer, and they're like, oh, that's who could sing. That

[48:42] Mike Abrams: was all that went to it. And then back

[48:44] Speaker 2: in the day, some of it was like about what color contract you had as an actor. And if you had a certain color contract, you had to sing a certain amount of songs. So, like, it could be something as logistical and silly as that that has now developed into, you know, 40 years of people being like those two together, something, not to ruin the magic. Of course, they're connected, of course, but it always makes me wonder how many of those logistical things have now turned into narrative things with the show that has so much flexibility in it. And

[49:13] Mike Abrams: there's some that have been I've been able to uncover some on this show where it's like these two are friends, or there was like a weird writing in the fan fiction that I could go ask them, and there's others that I'm like, we're gonna make the council teaser a thing now, you know, like, we're gonna bring that one into the lore and add it to the fan I love it, but it's, again, it's what makes it fun. Because I don't think anybody that went and saw your production in Florida got a different like, true different, like they didn't see a different cat. They still saw cats at its core. And that's fun, that you can have those little tweaks. And same with like the set, they can have it in a slightly different location. And yes,

[49:51] Speaker 2: that is a big thing that I'm really loving playing with is, is changing the set. The first time I directed it, we did. It in a junkyard. And that's, you know, always so wonderful. Second time it was an abandoned theater, like a backstage of a theater. Third time was an abandoned amusement park, and then the fourth time was an abandoned factory. And so, like, it's really fun to play with. Like, for me, one of the big things that comes out is like, what do the Beatles tap dance with? Like, what are their props in their hand? Is something I play with when they come in. For Jenna, any dots, it'll be different based on what you know, what they what, where they are, where they find themselves. And so, you know, this last time they had wrenches and screwdrivers, because we were in a factory in the time we were in the theater, they had lipsticks and mascara, things that they were holding, as you know, little cats or whatever it's, yeah, it's really fun the amusement park, it was straws, like bindi straws and so, like, I think the scenic element can really for me. I also like, like to make each production kind of feel fresh and new, and change some stuff. And think of things, I think I keep the storyline generally, but I, like, kind of change, you know, priority, and I have an idea for you and, but, yeah, like, it's really fun for me, because it also makes me think new, like, in a new way. I'm like, oh, okay, I can't even go back to the old things that I know, because we're in a new place, and this looks totally different. Yeah, what's your idea? Oh, wow, you scenic idea? No,

[51:17] Mike Abrams: I have the one thing I want to do so badly, and I will, I'm gonna, this is my pitch. Because if you get another chance to do this, I'm gonna, I will, I will fly my on my own dime and help you. I want to do not an Edwin drew style, because I don't think that you like, but some version of where every night dance votes, either the audience votes, or there's a different jellical choice. So you can do the whole thing up to grizzabel singing, you can still re accept her like, I don't want to ruin the redemption story, bring her back. But instead of sending her up the tire, she's now part of the family. She's back in the family. She's going to be there together. And then you vote. And I know someone did this with the chorus line, and they had a different person cast each time. And it is ready to do. If someone, yeah, can get approval. I don't know. There's probably way more to this than just

[52:06] Speaker 2: actually, I don't know, because you're not talking about changing anything within the the songs of the lyrics. I mean, really, it would just be during the UP, UP, UP section, probably you would stage some kind of Jellicle choice. Someone goes, I thought you're gonna say the audience votes. Well, the audience I just drew it was, I

[52:21] Mike Abrams: want audience voting, but I feel like that's harder. So audience voting would be like, more. I kind of wanted to be cheering, or some version of like, because I thought about this on Tour. Tour, you hear all these great stories of, like, we're back in my hometown. There's 200 people in this theater, my friends, yes, I'm like, I want you on the tire. Then, yeah, I want, Oh, that'd be, I do want, like, if you put some competition into this because of how you're doing eight shows a week, or it's different regionally, so it'd be a little harder. But I want this, like, No, this person brought it tonight, like this was their A game. Like we all saw that they were that they gave it their all. I want that, like, Mongo Jerry, Rumble teaser were so good tonight. I want them going, I

[53:02] Speaker 2: love that. We'll see. Okay, so you're thinking of it like winning American Idol, right? You're thinking like your American title. I've always thought of it as a chance for someone to get a new life. And so the reason I don't want to, I don't want to hint at what my answer is going to be here, but the reason that I feel like Grizabella ultimately gets it is because she needs it more, even, even more than Gus, because I think Gus has jelly and has this consistency in his life. He might be, you know, dwindling and older, but he like his life is okay. He gets to tell his stories. Jelly helps him recreate his old memories, and He's okay. He's like, he's retired, and he's he's doing, you know, he still has his wits about him. He's losing some of them, but he's okay. Like, he's okay, he'll last until next year. Whereas Grizabella, because of whatever you know has in impacted her life, whatever they whatever you perceive that to be, she really can't, like, get get forward, you know, she falls because she can't really continue, and so she really, like, needs a new chance at life. So, I mean, if you think of it from that standpoint, then, like, why would Rumpel teaser get to go up to the heavy salary? You know what I mean? But I mean, if you, if you give her the acceptance, and somehow give indicate that she, she, yeah, that she, she's going to be rejuvenated by maybe that's what it needs to be played, that she just needs their acceptance and not like a new she's her family. She

[54:26] Mike Abrams: wants to go to birthday parties next year and have some fun. Yeah, so there's no dance the ball with them too. Yeah, there's no doubt that I saw Leona Lewis as my first Grizabella, and that might have influenced how I viewed this show. I won't I won't shy away from seeing the next factor winner, watching that going like this is an X factor with cats on drugs, and that is the lens I saw this for the first time, and is why I've kind of gone down that path. I do. I don't disagree with you, in the sense of like the redemption arc in there. I think the debate that I philosophically have right now with her choice. Is, will she make it to next year? And if you don't believe she will, then I think you have to pick her. My argument is, I think by being re accepted with her family, she should have an incredible life and an incredible year that she's been yearning for, and we're about to rip it from her and kill her, I think bring her to the

[55:20] Speaker 2: next one? Yeah, I think one of the narratives that's probably in my head is that I think of her as someone who, maybe, you know, fell into the wrong crowd and fell into the wrong people. And as if I had to think of a human like this, it'd be somebody who, like, needed to go to rehab, somewhat like that had fallen into those kind of issues. And I think that's where my head goes, like, Oh, she might not, like, even with the nursing back of her family, she might not be able to make it through this, like, addiction problem or whatever is going on. And so I think, but again, if you think of it, more of just an acceptance route, like she just needs to be accepted by her family. Then, you know, then they let her back in, and she should be, she should be, you know, good to go for next year. You're You're complicating my thought. I mean, show for 20 years and now you're like,

[56:08] Mike Abrams: I'm slowly trying to influence somebody today. It's working. That's my goal. My goal, right? I

[56:14] Speaker 2: love the technical choice being, Yeah, different. We can get the

[56:18] Mike Abrams: technology we fan voted on our phones. But I don't like people bringing their phone out, because I think that does ruin some of theater. I would love to just do an applause, or have somebody each night make a call, like have somebody from the cast, because I think it is a just the fun of having a different person go up and having it feel like that, like changing that narrative, I think is, is what I'm shooting for. So if you do this again, and you're willing to make that decision, I will be the first person to meet you at any part of this. I'll be at rehearsals. I'll be at I'll come wherever you are in the country, and I'll be there. I love that

[56:55] Speaker 2: idea. I think, I think it's so interesting to play with, like, how you, you know, how you could do I mean, and I will, I will tell you, I loved the revival of drew that did the audience voting. I loved, I thought it was such an awesome concept that kept people engaged. And, yeah, I don't know if it was real or not, but, like, I loved it. I think that's the thing. Is, then people would be like, but they don't really have to do anything after that. Like, at least in Drew, they had to, like, sing a song when they, you know,

[57:19] Mike Abrams: they go up you? Yeah, they just show them how to go up the stairs, and then they come back down. Or, if you need to, or Grizabella, you stage her. Maybe she goes up someday. She's gonna win some nights. She's probably gonna win a lot of nights, because she probably would win memory being the end. But I do. I just keep thinking of the day where I'm, like, your 200 family members are there? Like, there's gonna be some, you know, going up today, just because tumble Bruce, his whole family is there.

[57:45] Speaker 2: I think of that day for me, when I was in the show and, oh, boy, okay, I'm not going to cry on a podcast. But I lost my father while I was on the tour, and I was able to, luckily, they like, let me spend some time with him before, before he died. But the day he died, I went back to the show, and I didn't want to be, like, alone in my hotel room, and I asked them if I could like, come back into the show that night, which was by far the hardest production I've ever done in my life. But that particular part of the show was really tough for me, like it was really, like a lot of a lot of you know, a lot was coming up for me, and I was just sobbing on stage. I could not control myself. And I guarantee you, if that would, if that cast voting was happening, my cast would have picked me, yeah, that night, and I think it would have been very cathartic for me. Probably would have cried my eyes out, going up that, going cloud, but, but, yeah, I mean, I think, I think that could be a very beautiful thing as well, and kind of spread it out to people and give people, you know, I also think there's something message wise that's really sweet about that, that kind of, it's not just I've always loved, that when she finally becomes vulnerable and allows herself to really beg us for forgiveness and for to come back. You know, I think that's when we finally, like, give in to her. And I say, like, Hey, you finally were able to beg and ask for what you needed and let down your ego. And I think there's something beautiful about like, accepting her after that happens. But I also think there's something beautiful about accepting like someone who's worked really hard, you know, I like think of like Jenny any dots, or something who you know is like out there training those Beatles. And, you know, like jelly Lorem, who's taking care of Gus so self selflessly, and you know, or whoever that you know might be able to win that just may deserve it too. You know,

[59:41] Mike Abrams: it's an ensemble show at its core, and so give them that that victory in some capacity, although it's a weird thing to call victory when it's like, we're gonna sacrifice you, yes, but I think it's there, and I think like with a show that's been around for so long that one tweet will make this a. Really interesting production to be a part of. I really

[60:03] Speaker 2: don't think there's anything in the script that demands the currents, the current ending. In fact, it's oddly not written in there. It's just kind of what everyone always does, you know, but I don't think it's what you assume. But it's not. There's no again, there's no script, there's just a score. There's no thing that says like, I don't think off the check

[60:24] Mike Abrams: well. Now you've done it once the past three years, so I'm just throwing this out there. If you tackle this show in 2025, 2025

[60:31] Speaker 2: maybe that's the year for it. I'm I'm 40,

[60:35] Mike Abrams: I'm free. Some years I'm available. Good to know I'll drop what I'm doing to be still

[60:41] Speaker 2: say that the wrong cat died each night, because you'll, you will have personally felt that someone else should have gone.

[60:46] Mike Abrams: Well, maybe it's my vote. Maybe the day I might have, no, I don't want to be the sole voter, but there, but there might be a day where I agree with the crowd, you know, like, and then I'll think, yeah, the right the right cat did that. There

[60:58] Speaker 2: better be an episode that said tonight, the right cat died. Honestly,

[61:02] Mike Abrams: if I can convince somebody to do this, and I can go document the whole story of it might be the end of the show. It'll be no there's too many people still to talk to, but that would be a, definitely a highlight of this podcast. And I would, I would go with camera crew at all to to be a part of that. Whatever anybody's willing to let me do. What's

[61:26] Speaker 2: beautiful about this concept, I'm really into it, is that the show has been around for so long, and so many people think that they've seen it, and they like, you know, it still sells so well in every venue I've ever done the show, but, but I feel like there is sort of this, like, it's always like, Oh yeah, it's better than what I said in New York. Or, like, it's always like a direct comparison of, like, the two very similar things. I mean, even when I'm like, I've changed so much, they're like, this is just like, when I saw it and took them, like, No, it's not. It's totally different. Skimbles was a tough number, you know. But anyway, but so it would be interesting to actually, like approach it like it's a little different this time. It's not this, you know, it's a has it, you know, come to see who wins, you know, whatever. Could be an interesting take on it. I was thinking more like, ask the audience from Who Wants to Be a Millionaire, where they, like, put in their answer, you know, and we could,

[62:22] Mike Abrams: I'm there. It's more of just, like, do you want them to pull the phone out? Because then there's still a number after, yeah, unless you change that too. But if not, you have a number after, it's like, they go up, up, and then there's a whole song dressing, yeah, and that's where I'm like, Well, I don't want them to be phone in hand. Like, now maybe there's a way to wire up the theater a little bit and just have something like on the on the same like, there's a lot of choices that just because it's a math problem of production costs, but there's also just say, good old fashion everyone cheer and you go down the line, and you can do it that way, yeah. Or you could just rig it and have Old Deuteronomy actually choose by himself every night. There's a lot of ways, but I want it to be, you could pick one different

[63:08] Mike Abrams: ooh, a lot of power. Yeah, it's your child choice tonight. Yeah, yeah, that's,

[63:15] Speaker 2: that's even different. Could be like a lottery system of what seat you pull out. Yeah.

[63:20] Mike Abrams: That would terrify some people, I'm sure, yes, yeah, get a big, get a big, like pinball, lottery, yeah, yeah, and it's a seat number, and then you one person gets to make a decision, choose that would be you'd have to give them a list, though, because otherwise it's going to be unfair.

[63:37] Speaker 2: So they don't know. Some people are not gonna know. Some cats names. Yeah, that's a good point, but we can solve during that solvable project, yeah, yeah, it is a solvable problem. I'm intrigued by it. It's, I think what's beautiful about, like, the show's been around for so long, there's literally two movies the show. And so everybody, if they want to see the original production, they can see the original production. They can also see, you know, this movie version in London, and they could do, you know, but to see, like, a new rendition of it, you know, I know you talked a bit before we started recording about the the ballroom cats that's coming to New York. Yeah, I think that it just finding new worlds in which cats can live is always such a fun challenge, you know, to kind of challenge people's understanding of what the show is, you know, or, you know, telling you like, oh, wait, that's not what I remember. And I think it's, I think it can be fun. It's, I think we're in that era now of cats, where it doesn't always have to be a replication of the original. And I think it's actually really interesting when it's not. I know for me, it's been really rewarding, really scary and daunting. Believe me, I really scared me to do that, but it's been really rewarding to try to put kind of my own my own thoughts into it, and my own style into it. And I think I know the original so well that I know like what has to be there and what elements really matter and what story needs to happen, but have been able to take some liberties and evolve things. And I think that's what theater should do, right? We don't have to always just replicate. And, you know, talk about the exact same thing that happened before. All

[65:07] Mike Abrams: right, well, we've, we've answered the final question. So your votes, Grizabella, I want to make sure we still get the rapid fire real fast, because we've gone very long today, which is great, because this has been amazing. If you could go on, I'm gonna take Mustafa's off the table one night. Any cat who do you want to perform as Demeter? Demeter, love it

[65:24] Speaker 2: favorite or rumble teaser, demeanor or rumble teaser, yeah, those favorite always been my dream roles and least

[65:30] Mike Abrams: favorite cat, so if you like personality wise, favorite,

[65:34] Speaker 2: Demeter, least favorite, Play Doh. Play Doh, okay. So

[65:39] Mike Abrams: boring, so boring. Favorite song in the show mccavity, yeah, probably, yeah. And such a, such a jam. I It's probably one of my favorites. I actually wish there was a the one on the cast album is like eight minutes, and I'm like, can I get like, the three minute version, like the just the part that we all really want to hear? Yeah, so I could put it into my playlist and not be on the subway with a weird, quiet, like interlude to it. Yes.

[66:09] Mike Abrams: cat my fun one? Who would be the best director, choreographer? Which cat would be best Kimball shanks? Okay, definitely. That's where my head went to, yeah. Very organized. Yeah.

[66:20] Mike Abrams: so fun. How can people stay in touch with you on social media and everything you're working on?

[66:25] Speaker 2: I think all of my social media handles are dance and Chaz, D, A, n, C, I n, C, H, A, Z, and I have a website that I update on my projects, Chazz willcott.com, yeah, I hope to do cats many more times like I said, it's been a consistent show in my life since I was a child, and it was a dream, and then a dream realized, and then I've gotten to work on it in so many different capacities, and so I hope to keep doing it so and maybe one of these days try the vote method.

[66:56] Mike Abrams: You manifested your vis. I'm hoping I've manifested a ending, and I will be there. I'm ready whenever you're ready. You know how to get in touch with me? Yeah, I will be the first person to show up to your rehearsals. I can't perform or do anything to help you, besides lore storytelling and figuring out how to make this ending work.

[67:18] Speaker 2: I love it. We got to just develop a little, little button or something people can press, and then we're gold on and make it cheap. That theater, cheap enough.

[67:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah, cheap enough. That fits in budget. I yeah, I can figure that part out. The text. I'm not worried about the tech side, actually, at all. Okay, I'm more. I just need someone to to take that risk. Yeah,

[67:38] Speaker 2: I think it's, I think risks are always worth it. You know, sometimes they don't work out, but it's always better to take a risk than to stay complacent and do the same thing over and over

[67:47] Mike Abrams: again. Well, we're ready, we're here, and it'll be it'll be amazing. It'll be super fun. Yeah, this has been awesome. I really, I loved hearing how you think about the story, your experience, doing it, directing it and everything in between. What an incredible conversation. Yeah,

[68:04] Speaker 2: thank you so much, and thanks for bringing so much fun to the world of cats and talking with so many inspiring people who've helped me figure out that this show was my dream show, and it's been so entertaining just to listen to other people talk about it and realize how passionate people feel about cats from all walks of life and people that have done the show for its whole history, it's awesome.

[68:26] Mike Abrams: It's been fun to document the short plus years. So it's been awesome. Well, thanks again, and thanks everyone. Thank you to this episode of the wrong cat died, the podcast breakdown, the cast fest, the podcast breakdown, the cast atrophy to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify already on some of the podcast. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, tick, tock and threads, if they aren't got time checking our website, their rocket