This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ian Knauer: Hi, my name is Ian Knauer. Welcome to a special edition of The Wrong Cat Died with Mike Abrams and The Theatre Podcast with Alan Seales. Everybody, welcome back to The Theatre Podcast.

[0:13] Alan Seales: If you're listening in that feed or maybe even hello to people over in The Wrong Cat Died podcast feed, this is an episode that's dropping in both feeds because it's me and Mike Abrams from The Wrong Cat Died podcast, teaming up as we do a crossover conversation with the wonderful Ian Knauer. And Ian's career has taken him from Broadway in Anastasia to the West End in Dirty Rotten Scoundrels and regional productions of Cats, which is actually why Mike joined us. He's performed as Jafar on Disney Cruise Lines, among many other things, and we dug into all of that, including some behind-the-scenes cruise ship stories, what it was like to finally land Cats after years of auditions. And because, of course, Mike was there, we got into a spirited debate about who really should have been chosen in Cats to be reborn.

Spoiler alert, Ian makes a strong case for Old Deuteronomy. No, I'm team Gus all the way. But a quick heads up, as a one-man band, when it comes to running my own recording gear, sometimes I make mistakes. And this time, I didn't catch that Ian's microphone was blocking his beautiful face on video. So if you're watching the video version, my apologies to that. Ian, if you're listening, I'm sorry. But trust me, the conversation more than makes up for it. So find me online on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, all the places. As I mentioned, there are video versions of this episode, so you can find those on Spotify or Patreon. Everybody, please enjoy this episode with guest co-hosts Mike Abrams and Ian Knauer.

[1:55] Alan Seales: All right. Today is going to be, I'll call it a fun episode. I've got my longtime friend and co-host of the Wrong Cat Died podcast with me here today, as we decided to jointly interview this wonderful human sitting next to us here. He has an incredible career that spans Broadway, West End, regional theater, concerts, film, TV, and cruise ships. We'll get into that. He trained at University of Michigan, has built a career in musical theater, operetta, and acting both on stage and screen. Some of his notable stage credits include Broadway's Anastasia and Mamma Mia!, the West End's Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, numerous stage adaptations on Disney ships, throwback to the cruise ship, which is why he's here with us today, a regional production of Cats, which is why Mike is here today, and so much more. Guest host Mike Abrams of the Wrong Cat Died and podcast guest Ian Knauer, welcome to this joint episode of The Theatre Podcast and The Wrong Cat Died.

[2:44] Mike Abrams: Thank you. I'm very glad to be here. I'm pumped.

[2:50] Alan Seales: So for those of my listeners who don't know what The Wrong Cat Died is, mine's easier to explain. Mine's an interview resume rundown podcast there. For The Wrong Cat Died listeners, that's who I am. For my listeners, who are you?

[3:01] Mike Abrams: I went to see Cats in 2016, and I thought the wrong cat died at the end of the musical, and it's become a podcast where I talk to people about Cats, and there's 250 episodes of talking to Cats performers, Cats superfans, a lot of people related to it, and the premise is we talk about the show, the plot, the character development, and why I don't think Grizabella is the right choice. So that's going to be a question for you at the end or sometime in today. That's coming.

[3:31] Ian Knauer: Yeah, I should have prepared.

[3:34] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's coming. But that's my show.

[3:38] Ian Knauer: Excellent. Everybody has an opinion on whether Grizabella was the wrong cat to die, I think.

[3:45] Mike Abrams: I don't think anybody talked about it until 2019 when I started talking into a microphone about it. And now 200 episodes later, you've become part of at least regional theater canon.

[3:51] Ian Knauer: Yeah, part of the lore.

[3:52] Mike Abrams: Because there's regional productions that are spinning up that are always like, go listen to these episodes with the original cast members that you did, that now give them the backstory.

[4:03] Ian Knauer: Yeah, it's an undefined show. So it's great to have different versions of how people interpret it.

[4:09] Mike Abrams: Well, yeah, because it's all based on poetry and putting music together.

[4:13] Ian Knauer: Exactly. I think there were a core group of people who were putting on the show for so long that they had their own lore and their own stories and their own, but also a lot of that was left up to the actors.

[4:28] Mike Abrams: Totally.

[4:29] Ian Knauer: So when I did it, we only had, I think, maybe two weeks to put the show together, which is insanity. And then we did it for two weeks at Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera. This was, I think in, I don't know, 2007 or something like that. And we were very fortunate to have Richard Stafford. So Richard...

[4:47] Mike Abrams: Legend.

[4:48] Ian Knauer: Right. So he was part of, I think, the original company, but anyway, has been a part of creating and putting together so many Cats around the world that it was pretty phenomenal to have that information. But not everything could be given because you only had so much time to put the show together.

[5:12] Mike Abrams: With a two-week production.

[5:13] Ian Knauer: That's what I was going to get into. Yeah.

[5:16] Mike Abrams: It's don't kick your dancing partner in the face type of things more than like, are they dating or not type of questions that I like to ask.

[5:23] Ian Knauer: You know, he was saying how normally they would take three days to do, I can't remember what they called it, but it was about finding who you were as a cat and finding out what your relationship with other people were. And to be honest with you, I thought it was all a bunch of hooey. I didn't understand it. I thought, just give me my blocking. I'll do it. And also at the time, I was 39. So I had auditioned for the Broadway company a gazillion times as MonkaStrap because that was really kind of... I've always been a triple threat, but never like a real dancer dancer. So I thought, okay, well, MonkaStrap, I think I can do. So it never happened. Kept auditioning, kept auditioning. But so Richard knew who I was and then the show closed and I was in my thirties and I thought, oh, so I auditioned for the tour.

Never happened. So then I got to my mid-thirties and I said, right, never ever happening for me because my body's just not going to be able to do it. So then Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera was doing a season that included White Christmas and Cats amongst other things. And so I was being considered for one of the lead roles in White Christmas, but that person needed to also be in Cats. So I said, okay, well, I guess I'm auditioning for Cats and went in and Richard Stafford was glorious. Got from behind the table, well, it's so great to see you again. And I sang for him and he said, I'd love for you to come back and move this afternoon. And I said, move. Excellent.

[7:00] Ian Knauer: An actor who moves.

[7:00] Mike Abrams: Not dance, move. Yes. So I came that afternoon in khakis and a polo and my character shoes saying, mover, you know, and the combination was nowhere near movement. But he was very clear. He said, this is the big cat audition. And he said, just do what you can do. We want to see how much you can do. And it was really great. It actually was a very educational day as well for other reasons. That was the very first audition where I thought, oh, I can't do this combination every time. I have to mark it. Or not only will I be able to not do the combination, but I won't be able to walk tomorrow. But I obviously learned how to do that because I was fortunate enough to get cast.

[7:53] Ian Knauer: Is it?

[7:55] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it was. And then I remember saying to him on the first day, probably, I said, now, Richard, I know this is called Cats, but the less I have to be on my knees, the better.

[8:09] Ian Knauer: And he laughed. And then he said, oh, you're serious. And I said, yeah, I'm serious. And he said, well, actually, you're playing MonkaStrap. Oh, we could have your pose be standing. Okay, great. Why don't I just let you know when I need you to be on the ground and when you can get up? And I said, and I'll get myself down to the ground and get myself back up. And he said, great, that's a deal. So.

[8:41] Mike Abrams: But I bet you had some amazing dancers in White Christmas though.

[8:44] Ian Knauer: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, in a theater like Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera, the ensemble is there for all of the shows. So not only are they brilliant singers, but they're brilliant dancers. And they're young and hungry. And it's fantastic that they're ready to do whatever is thrown at them.

[9:06] Mike Abrams: Well, we're getting into the Disney Cruise side. We'll get into all of that where you and I met. But speaking of young and hungry, what was Young and Hungry Ian doing to get you started in theater?

[9:14] Ian Knauer: Yeah, well, for me, it started very, very early. So I'm originally from Toledo, Ohio. My parents were not in theater, but thankfully, they really loved the theater. So I used to go and see all of the national tours that came through town. So I was in choir at my church, and my choir teacher said, Ian, you should audition for this local professional dinner theater production of The Sound of Music. And I said, great, what's an audition? So she helped me fill out the paperwork, and I sang Wouldn't It Be Loverly from My Fair Lady. And out of about 500 kids, I got the part of Kurt. And there were, I think, three or four of us. So there were like three different casts. So we rotated, because we were all going to grade school at the time. And I did the show for about nine and a half years, nine and a half months.

[10:12] Mike Abrams: That's like nine and a half years. That's wow.

[10:13] Ian Knauer: That was a whole lot of stuff.

[10:14] Mike Abrams: You play all the children.

[10:18] Ian Knauer: Yeah, nine and a half months. And I feel like I made around $300 a week. So I was doing pretty well. I was 11 years old, 1979. And I absolutely loved it. So that's where I fell in love with the theater. I fell in love with performing. I don't think I really understood it, but I found my people. I really felt like I fit in to this crazy group of people. And I kept going to school. And two years later, they were doing another show at that theater called Carousel, and I got cast as one of the snow children. And then I did lots of shows in high school. Luckily, the school that I went to had a great musical theater program. We were a horrible band.

[11:02] Mike Abrams: You went to high school?

[11:04] Ian Knauer: Yeah, high school. Not middle school, no. And I feel like I did maybe one or two community theater shows. And then I had to make the decision about what was going to happen for school, because my parents said, no way are you going to do musical theater? Because of course, nobody knew what a career in musical theater was back then. And there was no internet.

[11:27] Mike Abrams: If you know now, let me know.

[11:29] Ian Knauer: Exactly, right. So, I thought, fair enough. So, I loved helping people. So, I did a double major. I got into the University of Michigan, and I double majored in musical theater and pre-med, you know, like you do. But of course, the pre-med part of it didn't last very long, because the courses weren't hard for me. I just was bored. So, I just knew.

[11:56] Mike Abrams: You could always play the dentist in Little Shop of Horrors.

[11:59] Ian Knauer: And back then, everyone was saying, oh, you can be on General Hospital, the soap opera. So, Michigan was huge for me, because I did lots of really great shows there. But I learned really the tools that were necessary that I needed to make my way through this crazy business.

[12:23] Ian Knauer: It was a pretty phenomenal place for me to learn and to learn who I was, too, because I don't think I would ever have been ready to go out into the world. I was not aware of who I really was. So that was really good, too. But learning how to audition, learning how to dance, learning how to pick up combinations. So pretty much everything I learned at Michigan just helped with every single audition. I feel like eventually when I moved to New York, it didn't feel easy, but it felt easy. I was ready. I actually finished school in three and a half years. I don't know why I was such in a rush. Then I did a year at Disney World and dancing, actually, at MGM Studios, which is now Hollywood Studios. And then I did a summer stock gig out in California, and then I did a cruise ship job on the QE2, and then moved to New York in 1992, a little while ago.

And then my first job was two weeks after I moved to the city. I got a job at Paper Mill Playhouse. So you come to the city to leave the city. That's usually... Well, but I mean, I was living at home. Yeah, exactly. It is. It is. Yeah. Well, so then we met on the Disney Treasure.

[13:55] Mike Abrams: Disney Fantasy.

[13:56] Ian Knauer: You sure?

[13:57] Mike Abrams: I've never been on the Disney Treasure.

[13:59] Ian Knauer: Well, then I... Okay. We met on the Disney Fantasy then. I can't keep the ships apart.

[14:05] Mike Abrams: The Treasure is the brand new one.

[14:07] Ian Knauer: It is.

[14:07] Mike Abrams: That's why it's on my... Because I was researching it. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Sorry.

[14:10] Ian Knauer: You've been on too many Disney cruises, if you don't know about it.

[14:13] Mike Abrams: Have you ever been on too many Disney cruise ships?

[14:17] Ian Knauer: I just was on Royal Caribbean, which is where Cats plays.

[14:22] Mike Abrams: Oh, did you see it?

[14:23] Ian Knauer: I didn't see Cats. I saw Back to the Future.

[14:25] Mike Abrams: Oh, yes.

[14:25] Ian Knauer: Did they do the DeLorean?

[14:27] Mike Abrams: They did the whole DeLorean. Well, I was on a trade before the cruise starts officially. I was in... I was the plus one. So I was happy to go and it was great. The car does all the stuff. The car didn't do all the stuff every night I was there, but that's the part. I mean, it was like their dress rehearsal. So they were working through everything. Amazing cast. It's an incredible production to do it. No intermission, an hour and a half.

[14:55] Ian Knauer: Oh, they cut it down.

[14:56] Mike Abrams: They cut it down and it's really, really well done.

[15:01] Ian Knauer: You have the same look I'm thinking.

[15:03] Mike Abrams: Well, I'd love to. I've never seen it before. I heard it was so much fun on Broadway and I just really wanted to see it.

[15:10] Ian Knauer: Yeah. Well, it's touring. It's touring right now.

[15:13] Mike Abrams: Or you can go on the Icon... I think it was the Icon of the... No, Stars of the Seas on Royal Caribbean and you can see it for an hour and a half. But I noticed two songs that I knew were cut and they shortened some other parts, but yeah, it's very well done.

[15:29] Ian Knauer: How did you get onto the ship? How does one become a guest Broadway performer? Because they made a whole thing out of you. Like this is a... He's on Broadway and now he's here and he's in all these shows.

[15:40] Ian Knauer: Yeah. So a long time ago, I had heard little snippets of this. So like all of these character guys had been doing this job, but no one was talking about it. I could not get information about it at all. And I thought, what is this? So I was doing Anastasia on Broadway and a friend of mine came with her husband and I didn't know her husband and her husband and I were just... So I said, hey, what are you doing? And he's a Broadway guy. And he said, well, I'm doing this Broadway guest. I was like, wait, wait, wait, stop. What is it that you're doing? He said, really? I said, yeah, because I'm the Broadway guest artist for the Disney cruise ships. And I said, great. What is that? Tell me exactly what it is.

So he was telling me what the contract was and what it was that you did. And I thought, this sounds absolutely phenomenal. And then as the world happens, a person that I have known for quite a long time walked in to see Anastasia. We were chatting and I said, what are you up to? She said, oh, I'm doing this and this. And no, I'm the New York casting director for Disney cruise lines. And I said, wait, what? So she got me an audition and I went and auditioned. And originally I was auditioning for Maurice in Beauty and the Beast. And then there's another character in a show called Disney's Believe, where you play the dad who doesn't believe in magic. And so I was excited about that, but they both felt very similar roles.

And so then the audition was going very well and I was asking all of these questions about what this job was. And so they said, great, that's good. You can go. Oh, actually, do you mind sight singing something for us? And I said, I don't mind at all. So they handed me the music for Jafar. And I said, yes, this is great. And they were like, really? And I said, yes, indeed. But I don't know it. So if you could just give me a moment, I'll learn it. So I sang it and that is what they cast me in as Jafar. So it was a really lovely thing because I left Anastasia and then gave it a try. So I was in Toronto with the rest of the cast and the rest of the cast rehearses for two, two and a half months in Toronto.

And then they're on the ship for about six to seven months. And so I rehearsed for about a month doing the two shows up in Toronto. And then went on the ship for just the first two months because most of my contracts are about two months long, which is just perfect. And I absolutely loved it. And so I've kind of been splicing that in with regional work, with Broadway work, with other, other things.

[18:38] Mike Abrams: Don't go anywhere. We're going to take a quick commercial break.

[18:42] Ian Knauer: All right, everyone. Now we're back.

[18:42] Mike Abrams: So I saw you in Norway on that leg of the trip. Where else have you been?

[18:47] Ian Knauer: Well, that particular ship, it really lives in the Caribbean.

[18:51] Mike Abrams: Right.

[18:52] Ian Knauer: So because the Disney fantasy was going to dry dock in about two weeks. Right now, actually, I think.

[18:59] Mike Abrams: Yeah. They took the ship across and made it a whole shebang and did the Mediterranean. So that they always like to have a ship that's in the Mediterranean doing Mediterranean cruises. And I think the Disney Dream is going there next year, but they have already done their dry dock. So I believe they're going to have some ship because there are quite a few Disney ships at the moment. They keep releasing like one a year, I think, at this point. They're going to do that for the next while. And I have a little insider information and I know I'm going to butcher this fact. So just research it to verify. But that's what all the ships say. They're based out of Nassau because a country has to own a boat, a cruise ship.

And it has to go to Nassau and do the Caribbean for two years to get the tax purposes or something. Every new ship is always, I think, going to go to the Caribbean for two years. And then that'll shift other ships to other parts of the world. Although I don't know that the Adventure is. I'll be curious to see what they do.

[20:07] Mike Abrams: Isn't the Adventure the one, though, that they bought partially built?

[20:11] Ian Knauer: So that's a separate financial arrangement.

[20:13] Mike Abrams: Oh, I see.

[20:14] Ian Knauer: Because that one they bought off of another cruise ship, the cruise line that went bankrupt, I think. So they're retrofitting it. So I think it's a whole different thing.

[20:21] Mike Abrams: Oh, okay.

[20:22] Ian Knauer: Yeah, they have to stop in Nassau.

[20:24] Mike Abrams: Yeah, for like two years, I think.

[20:25] Ian Knauer: But they have to stop before they let passengers on.

[20:29] Mike Abrams: It's all tax. It's all for tax purposes.

[20:31] Ian Knauer: Yeah, it's all taxes. Anyway, I want to touch on cats a little bit because Mike is here. I have never been part of a debate with a guest, I think, on your podcast.

[20:42] Mike Abrams: I've been on your podcast a couple times, Mike.

[20:43] Ian Knauer: You've been on a few times, but it's always been more conversations about other stuff.

[20:47] Mike Abrams: Right, right, right. So I want to put it out there that I think Grizabella flat out wrong cat to die.

[20:55] Ian Knauer: Great. I would put Gus number one. Gus is definitely number one for me. I mean, the dude, he's lived a life. He's old. He needs to come back. You know what we've never figured out? When you get reborn, do you keep your memories? So there's a lot of open-ended questions, which is a big part of this debate, and that's where I'll start. I'm not going to answer that question because I want to hear how you answer it first, and then I will maybe influence some of those decisions.

[21:23] Mike Abrams: So what am I answering?

[21:25] Ian Knauer: Who do you think is the right cat to die?

[21:27] Mike Abrams: Um, you know, I've never really actually thought of her dying. I just thought she was going to another place because, you know, we were losing her. But yeah, she's dead. I mean, I guess old Deuteronomy because he's the one who's kind of taking care of everybody. So of course, I feel like he's the one that has been taking care of everyone. Why doesn't he get taken care of?

[21:51] Ian Knauer: That is such a monkish trap answer. I love it. It's like, you're ready to take over. It's like, let's get this guy out of the way. Done. I'm ready. I'm in charge now.

[22:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Okay. No notes. It's not Grizabella. I'm for it. But do you think they get to keep their memories when you're reborn? Because I was going to say, with Gus, with the skills he has developed in this life, he'd come back and just be a star.

[22:16] Ian Knauer: Yeah. Well, let's say yes, then. I think that's a great idea. I mean, of course, that's going on, but cats have nine lives, so why not? I think the root of the question still is, what does the Heaviside Lair mean? So to your point, do they get their memories back? Do they come back to the same tribe? Do they come back in the same body? Do they come back just younger and reborn? Because that's the main argument of my particular thesis is that she, Grizabella, does all this stuff. She's coming back. They finally accept her. They finally are ready. And in a few productions, they've made it clear that Sillabob's her daughter. There's some version of like, this is family. And it's like, all right, now we're going to send you up to the sky. I want her to have a year. I want one more year. She can be next year's choice. Great. She can have a birthday party or something. Spend some time with the family that just finally accepted you.

[23:14] Ian Knauer: That is true. It does seem... I put others ahead of her for the next year. Even next year. I'm like, okay, this begs a philosophical question. Do you deserve, and I put the word deserve loosely in quotes, do you deserve to be reborn because you've experienced bad things out of your control or because you've made choices that you can't recover from? What makes you a deserving candidate? Do you have to be a good person? A good captain?

[23:46] Mike Abrams: I don't think there is anything because clearly, as we have seen in life, that's not the way it works. But we're talking about what would we like. So in our version, yeah, sure. It's a redemption story. I don't think it's clear if she made the wrong decisions or she ended up in a bad situation. And I think you could definitely interpret that either way.

[24:08] Ian Knauer: Right. So I think she's done a little of both. I think she's ended up in bad places because of bad decisions. So I would put somebody... I mean, granted, we don't know what Gus has done previous to what we see. He could have done some things to get him on stage. We haven't canceled Gus yet, but we could. We haven't written that story of what Gus did a couple years ago or before the internet. Like Skimbleshanks, like what's happening on the railway or like Bustopher, just he deserves to be reborn just because he overeats?

[24:48] Ian Knauer: He's a sports guy, by the way. I want to preface this, sports, hockey, basketball, everything. I still, when I went to see the international tour they invited me and I went, I went because I went to Wimbledon and I was already pretty close to there and I was like, yeah, I'll just, I'll add tack on a day. But I remember so vividly I got yelled at by a Skimbleshanks because I called him, I called him Creepy Uncle Skimble because, and I know the exact, I know the exact moment and I know I'm wrong now in it, but when I watched that he at one point is, it looks like, I think he's supposed to be taking off clothes to like pretend that he's going to sleep in the sleeper train as part of the dance number.

And I'm like, this guy is stripping in front of all of his nieces and nephews. And I was like, and I was, and now once I heard more of like, cause you know, I knew nothing in these first 10 episodes. I was really watching the YouTube clips being like, well, that's kind of interesting. And here's how, what I think it is now. I'm like, okay, no. Oh, wait. So in your episodes, you had a Skimbleshanks reach out to you and yet one of the first Skimbleshanks I interviewed was like, I got a, I got a bone to pick with you right away, right away, which was great. Yeah.

[26:02] Mike Abrams: Well, you know, you've done something right. You evolve, you know, I didn't know at the time, I didn't know who half the characters were. I don't think many people do. I do now. I oftentimes think it's a little more interesting to be in it than it is to see it. A lot of people think that because you get so ingrained in much more of the story and the family then you can't, you can't watch it and notice all the things happening. There's too much going on.

[26:27] Ian Knauer: Exactly. So it is hard, but I think that's why there's also a huge super fandom because they'll go back and watch just those two cats or just that storyline and all those other things happening. You could go watch it a hundred times and learn something new. And you'll always see something different. Yeah.

[26:42] Mike Abrams: I think we need you, Mike, to write a mockumentary screenplay about the, like a reality show. It's following all the cats behind the scenes, all their relationships, flashbacks to what happened to cause them to be how they are, who they are now. We need to know, we need to get all these characters, all of the character names that are never sung, that are never mentioned, but are consistent in every single performance that goes on.

[27:03] Ian Knauer: Yeah. So I did a little bit of that with Peter.

[27:15] Mike Abrams: Right, right. But you need a full screenplay. I need to go to the rest, yeah. You need to do everything. We need to know who's been sleeping with who to produce this kitten that turned up to screw over this person. And we need behind the scenes drama.

[27:27] Ian Knauer: But there's no consistency.

[27:29] Mike Abrams: Make it. But I can't make that because I'll have one show that will definitely do it this way, and then another show will definitely do it that way. And neither are wrong. They're just, they make different decisions of where they place them on stage or-

[27:41] Ian Knauer: Well, and also if you don't have enough money to have all of the cats, then it's going to be a-

[27:46] Mike Abrams: Or the reverse is in high school, you have too many performers that you have 25 cats that don't have other names. There was a Civic production. They did four in Westerville, Ohio. They did four shows. They had 66 people.

[28:00] Ian Knauer: What?

[28:01] Mike Abrams: Yep.

[28:02] Ian Knauer: What about-

[28:03] Mike Abrams: That's quite a choice to do cats.

[28:05] Ian Knauer: Yeah, they did four. They did it in a garden. I was so mad. I almost was able to make the trip happen. I was so close to being able to go. It was just outside Columbus. I had them on the show. They were so fun. It was so interesting hearing how they did it. It was like father-sons were doing stuff. There was a lot of- It was really cool. They did four particular, four shows. And I was fascinated by 66. It's somewhere on YouTube, I think. I don't know if you can find it. They sent it to me. It's beautiful because there's so many cats everywhere. It's so cool to see. But they have names that you've never heard.

[28:37] Ian Knauer: Yeah. And Fulton Theater in Pennsylvania just did-

[28:40] Mike Abrams: They had like 30-ish because they had all the-

[28:42] Ian Knauer: On stage.

[28:44] Mike Abrams: The Coaster Kittens that we interviewed.

[28:45] Ian Knauer: On stage it was.

[28:46] Mike Abrams: Oh, I didn't know that.

[28:46] Ian Knauer: Yeah, they had a bunch of high school and college kids that made up their own names and they made up their own stories. It's a bonus episode that we released where we went and sat with them all and they had the most fun doing it. But also, you got to see it twice, right?

[29:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[29:02] Ian Knauer: It visually incredible.

[29:04] Mike Abrams: It was beautiful.

[29:04] Ian Knauer: Because there's cats everywhere. There's cats behind you and they're-

[29:07] Mike Abrams: That's a beautiful theater.

[29:07] Ian Knauer: They built a set out of steel and they were climbing up like two, three stories hanging off of the sides of the proscenium and it was insane. All right, so for the record, Ian, did the wrong cat die?

[29:19] Ian Knauer: Yes. Yes.

[29:20] Mike Abrams: And your vote is Old Deuteronomy.

[29:22] Ian Knauer: Old Deuteronomy.

[29:23] Mike Abrams: I'm for it. So you got to tally this one.

[29:25] Ian Knauer: Oh, I've got a record. I've keep track.

[29:28] Mike Abrams: Okay. Old Deuteronomy, he's got a handful of votes, but it's a Gus Grisabella race.

[29:33] Ian Knauer: Okay.

[29:33] Mike Abrams: Oh, really?

[29:34] Ian Knauer: So with that out of the way, it's now time for something I just made up that you don't know about, Mike.

[29:39] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over there.

[29:41] Ian Knauer: And the wrong one died.

[29:42] Mike Abrams: Or did they? All right, so Ian, Mike, it's time for a little game. I'm going to call The Wrong Cat Died or Did They? I'm going to throw out some famous deaths from stage and screen and you two get to decide. I want you to debate whether the right character died for the story or was it really the wrong cat that died for the story? We're using cat very loosely in this situation. All right, so feel free to defend, debate, do whatever you want. All right, so the first one scenario, the first person here, first catson, first cat is from Les Mis, Javert takes the final leap. Was his death the only ending possible or was Javert actually the wrong cat who died?

[30:21] Ian Knauer: That is a very good question. I don't think he needed to die, but I don't think he was the wrong person to die.

[30:28] Mike Abrams: What are you going to say about Grisabella?

[30:30] Ian Knauer: Well, yeah. I need a definitive answer.

[30:33] Mike Abrams: And you too, Mike. You know how little I know about so many other theater shows.

[30:37] Ian Knauer: Just pick a...

[30:39] Mike Abrams: You know, Les Mis I've seen probably once in a dinner theater that I don't remember as a child and then I saw the movie years ago. All right, pick Fantine.

[30:53] Ian Knauer: So yeah, sure. I think the... I mean, I'm just going to stick to my show, The Wrong Cat Died. So you're both in agreement. All right, Javert didn't need to die. Possibly not the wrong one, but didn't need to. All right, number two, let's see, Titanic, the film. I know you've seen Titanic.

[31:10] Ian Knauer: Yeah, and I've seen Titanic like many times.

[31:14] Mike Abrams: Which is amazing.

[31:15] Ian Knauer: Which is just the same thing.

[31:16] Mike Abrams: Titanic is lore, yeah. So Jack sinks while Rose floats on that damn door. Was he truly the wrong cat to die or just was it bad carpentry?

[31:29] Ian Knauer: I don't think I'm really understanding this. I mean, I'd love for him to have lived because that would have been interesting to see them together. But do you mean, do I feel like Rose should have died?

[31:44] Mike Abrams: Sure, any other character. This could be any other character from the show or the movie.

[31:50] Ian Knauer: Well, a lot of them die in the movie.

[31:53] Mike Abrams: True, true. Maybe this wasn't the best one. Okay, Rose or Jack or neither.

[31:57] Ian Knauer: I didn't really care for her mother. I mean, I think she's fabulous and she looked great and she's an amazing actress, but she was a nasty piece of work to everybody. I'm having to remember, I've seen Titanic too many times. I'm like, what actually happened in the real movie? I think there's room on the board for both of them. I know that that's been debated, right? That's been myth-bust.

[32:20] Mike Abrams: Right, yeah. Why didn't he just pull himself up? James Cameron busted the myth.

[32:24] Ian Knauer: James Cameron actually tested and recreated that scene that he filmed and proved through body monitors, made ice cold water to people that probably signed a lot of waivers. And when the dude was shivering so hard, his body temperature rose enough to keep him alive long enough so that whatever the rescue ship would have made it in time.

[32:47] Mike Abrams: Oh, so he would have made it.

[32:49] Ian Knauer: They would have made it. They both would have made it.

[32:51] Mike Abrams: Yeah, she should have moved over. He could have hopped on.

[32:53] Ian Knauer: I'll throw that video in the show notes.

[32:55] Mike Abrams: Okay, I love it.

[32:56] Ian Knauer: But it is on YouTube. That's why I was like, holy shit, they both could have lived. I think the Mythbusters guy also, they tried to do the density of would him hopping on sink them.

[33:06] Mike Abrams: No, but that's what James Cameron did. So they had the dude, the guy, same build and same everything as Leo DiCaprio. He did it right and crawl up on and the lady had to get on the other side to counterbalance it, but they made it and they both would have survived.

[33:21] Mike Abrams: Okay, then that's the way the movie should have ended.

[33:24] Ian Knauer: There we go.

[33:24] Mike Abrams: Instead of with the necklace that I still don't understand what the whole point of that was.

[33:30] Ian Knauer: No, it's not the whole movie.

[33:31] Mike Abrams: All right, so Romeo and Juliet in Shakespeare's Ultimate Tragedy. Was it Romeo, Juliet, Mercutio, Tybalt? Who should have died instead of Romeo and or Juliet?

[33:41] Ian Knauer: And Juliet.

[33:44] Mike Abrams: We don't have to make this decision.

[33:46] Ian Knauer: No.

[33:47] Mike Abrams: Did anybody? I think Juliet's parents deserve to get at least like a kick in the side or something.

[33:52] Ian Knauer: Yeah, I agree with that.

[33:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I mean, we're talking about deserve.

[33:58] Ian Knauer: There you go. Yeah, good callback. Like who could have died to make it a more interesting story?

[34:05] Ian Knauer: Oh, you don't think it's, I mean, that's an interesting statement. I think it's fairly interesting to make it both of them dying.

[34:13] Mike Abrams: Um, because actually, I don't feel like it would have held as nearly as much of a punch if, like if the vicar died or, or Bonvolio or whatever.

[34:25] Ian Knauer: Yeah, did you say Bonholio?

[34:27] Mike Abrams: Bonvolio, what's his name? Benvolio, Benvolio. I've, I've seen, I've also seen Anne Juliet many times. I've seen Romeo and Juliet once, and it was the recent one, which was the Gen Z version that was very hard to follow at times, because as someone who doesn't know it, I was like, oh yeah, this is, why is there Celsius on stage?

[34:45] Ian Knauer: But if Beavis and Budd had recreated Bonholio, it's a great movie.

[34:49] Mike Abrams: Bonholio, that'd be great. I would have watched that one.

[34:52] Ian Knauer: Yeah, Bonholio, I need TP for my death serum.

[34:55] Mike Abrams: Okay, we'll do two more. Let's see. The Lion King, Mufasa falls in that stampede. It is tragic, traumatic. Was he the wrong cat who died, literally? Or was Scar overdue for some karma earlier? Would Simba still have gone on that journey?

[35:11] Ian Knauer: No, no, it was necessary for Simba to actually become, because he would have had his father. Like, his father would have been actually-

[35:21] Mike Abrams: He would have grown up and been like a trust fund baby or something.

[35:26] Ian Knauer: He would have took over eventually, right, though?

[35:29] Mike Abrams: True, he would have.

[35:30] Ian Knauer: Yeah.

[35:30] Mike Abrams: So, I mean that-

[35:31] Ian Knauer: Who knows?

[35:31] Mike Abrams: That was a traumatic moment for me as a child. So, I would say I would prefer if he didn't, but I do think that that has to happen. But Scar, I don't know, Scar's kind of like, let's kill Macavity. It's like, do we need to kill the villain?

[35:46] Ian Knauer: No, because I often play the villains, so I like the villains.

[35:50] Mike Abrams: Okay, so this last one is going to be, I think, more difficult to nail down, because it's going to be Wicked slash Wizard of Oz. Because between Fiyero's transformation that we see in Wicked, and of course, we know the death of Nessa Rose as the Wicked Witch of the East in Wizard of Oz, was Nessa Rose the wrong cat to die?

[36:14] Ian Knauer: Yes, that's a very interesting question, because we get to know, because the Wicked Witch in The Wizard of Oz and the Wicked Witch, or Elphaba, are two very different people.

[36:27] Mike Abrams: Right.

[36:29] Ian Knauer: And so, can we say that Nessa Rose and the Wicked Witch of the East are two different people? But also, Nessa Rose is a very different person from the first act to the second act, when she becomes powerful, or I don't know what it is, but she turns. But yes, I don't like that Fiyero becomes... I have a very different question about this. The Wizard of Oz is essentially her having a concussion.

[37:11] Ian Knauer: So, now, Wicked is writing further depth of the backstory of her concussion?

[37:21] Mike Abrams: Or is it? Because in that case, who's in the very beginning of The Wizard of Oz on the bike riding in the tornado?

[37:29] Ian Knauer: Elvira Gulch.

[37:32] Mike Abrams: Right. Isn't she the witch?

[37:36] Ian Knauer: Yeah. Because I think that that person in the beginning, that scared me as a child. So that is who I think should die. But I still constantly think about The Wizard of Oz being a concussion.

[37:47] Mike Abrams: It's a fever dream.

[37:47] Ian Knauer: It's a fever dream, a concussion.

[37:50] Mike Abrams: I'll accept that. I'll take that answer.

[37:53] Ian Knauer: I grew up in the Midwest, so tornadoes were very prevalent. And I watched that movie a ton. My mom put it on all the time for my sister and I. And every time I watched it, I was like, there's a tornado coming. And am I going to get hit and end up in Munchkin Land? That was my fear for a while. And it was kind of exciting, but then I saw Wicked the first time and I'm like, wait a second, we're going deeper into her concussion.

[38:15] Mike Abrams: Well, okay. But granted, at the time we're recording this, Part 2 Wicked hasn't come out.

[38:20] Ian Knauer: Part 2 hasn't come out yet.

[38:21] Mike Abrams: So we don't know.

[38:25] Ian Knauer: The darkness that Part 2 is rumored to go into, and the transformation of Nessa Rose that we haven't seen yet. I don't know. I'm excited to see that, which I think will really add a lot of depth. A two and a half hour, with intermission play, turned into a three and a half hour, four hour, five hour, six hour movie.

[38:41] Mike Abrams: Side note, did you know that people are showing up to the Broadway show now upset that it is spoiling the movie for them?

[38:49] Ian Knauer: I heard that right when after the first movie came out. And some people left at intermission.

[38:54] Mike Abrams: Because they don't want to hear it.

[38:55] Ian Knauer: They didn't want to see it. They wanted to see what they saw on stage and then left.

[38:59] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[39:00] Ian Knauer: Wow.

[39:01] Mike Abrams: Well, spoiler. For those who don't know, the stage show was first, people.

[39:06] Ian Knauer: How long has it been out?

[39:07] Mike Abrams: I still haven't seen the first movie.

[39:09] Ian Knauer: I can't spoil Cats.

[39:10] Mike Abrams: It's been on for 40 years. Wicked's been out, I think, long enough that I hope we don't have to say the spoiler word.

[39:15] Ian Knauer: Yeah, 22, 21.

[39:17] Mike Abrams: You haven't seen the first movie?

[39:19] Ian Knauer: Okay. You want to see it? We want to see it on the big screen, and then we just didn't have time, and thankfully, because I was working and busy. And then it left the big screen, and we were like, nope, we want to wait.

[39:30] Mike Abrams: I think we're going to do the back-to-back.

[39:32] Ian Knauer: Yeah.

[39:33] Mike Abrams: That's what we're aiming to do.

[39:33] Ian Knauer: But you need a full day.

[39:35] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[39:36] Ian Knauer: We'll figure it out. Six and a half hours of movie.

[39:38] Mike Abrams: Still works for Harry Potter on the West End.

[39:41] Ian Knauer: That's true.

[39:42] Mike Abrams: That's true. American audiences don't have that attention span.

[39:44] Ian Knauer: I want to see The Wizard of Oz at the Sphere.

[39:47] Mike Abrams: Yes.

[39:48] Ian Knauer: Yes, I just heard about that.

[39:50] Mike Abrams: Yes. Oh, I was looking at the behind the scenes of this, because you're looking at something now 360, and it was filmed, obviously, in panoramic. So there are times they used AI to fill in the sides.

[40:03] Ian Knauer: Because when a camera, like in the scene, for example, when at the beginning, or no, at the end, when everybody's running around Dorothy, and she wakes up from her fever dream, and then they cut over to the side, and someone's on the side, and then they cut back to Dorothy, that person still exists on the side, which you can see if you have a wider field of view.

[40:22] Mike Abrams: Right.

[40:22] Ian Knauer: So they have to extrapolate and create all of this additional stuff, along with the wind and everything. They just made it a full immersive experience.

[40:31] Mike Abrams: I can't wait.

[40:31] Ian Knauer: Yeah, yeah. I gotta check that out next time I'm out there.

[40:35] Mike Abrams: Yeah. But it is the movie.

[40:37] Ian Knauer: Yes, it is the original movie with extra width added on to the original.

[40:42] Mike Abrams: It's like your TV expanded.

[40:45] Ian Knauer: And they added apples fall from the tree into the audience, and tornado has wind, and they really went for it.

[40:53] Mike Abrams: We're going to take a quick break for a few commercials.

[40:57] Ian Knauer: All right, everyone. Welcome back to the episode. Did you play any, in the Monkish Trap relationships, which ones do you remember? Did you play any that stick out as like, oh, I definitely did that?

[41:06] Ian Knauer: Oh, wow. That is a very good question. I did, but could I tell you what they were? No.

[41:16] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[41:17] Ian Knauer: It was a really incredible group of people. I can't remember if that was the first show, and then White Christmas was after it. So therefore, we were still getting to know one another. What was very interesting is at the beginning of every rehearsal period, you're supposed to have this three-day improv time, and we didn't have any of that.

[41:42] Mike Abrams: And so at the very end, just before we did our final run in the rehearsal room, he said, right, I'm going to give you 15 minutes to improv. This is what we would have done at the beginning of the week. And it was phenomenal to me how everyone was playing as their character.

[42:04] Ian Knauer: It was a fascinating thing. And really, I thought, oh, I get it. This would be extremely helpful in telling of the story because you're taking ownership of whatever relationships you are, this is what you're asking, developing. But no, I can't tell you because I can't remember.

[42:22] Mike Abrams: Okay. After, I'll give you the Monkish Trap rundown of like, here are the things people thought about.

[42:27] Ian Knauer: Oh, fantastic.

[42:29] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[42:34] Ian Knauer: Okay. So I like to wrap up, warm down. Oh, man. All right. I need coffee. I like to end my episodes with a couple of standard things here. The first one is called plot in 60 seconds. So I have a list of 17 popular musicals right here in front of me. You're going to give me a number that is one through 17 that will correspond to a popular musical on my list, and then you give me the plot to that musical in 60 seconds or less.

[43:03] Ian Knauer: Wow.

[43:04] Mike Abrams: Six.

[43:06] Ian Knauer: Six. We already talked about this a little bit. It's Les Mis, go!

[43:09] Mike Abrams: 60 seconds remaining.

[43:10] Ian Knauer: Oh, my word. All right. So there is, I'm not going to be able to do this. There's a guy who steals some candles. He has to go to jail, and then he does a lot of redemption, does a lot of work. He becomes this upstanding citizen and kind of helps a whole bunch of people, but it comes out that he is this person who is in jail.

[43:44] Mike Abrams: Wow. This is going to be riveting. I just really am so excited about this telling.

[43:50] Ian Knauer: And then he is able to continue helping people, and then there are a whole other bunch of people and a whole bunch of other stories that also happen, and it has really great music, and that's the plot of Les Mis.

[44:06] Mike Abrams: Didn't he steal a loaf of bread?

[44:09] Ian Knauer: Yeah. You said candles.

[44:12] Mike Abrams: Oh, he stole a loaf of bread, but didn't he go to the priest's house?

[44:18] Ian Knauer: Oh, no. Maybe he gave those to him.

[44:20] Mike Abrams: Are you thinking of Great Gatsby?

[44:21] Ian Knauer: No, no.

[44:22] Mike Abrams: No, not Great Gatsby. Great Expectations. And then there's this great benefactor who did this thing.

[44:29] Ian Knauer: This is one of the scenes.

[44:31] Mike Abrams: Too many greats. Too many greats. Do you want to do one, Mike?

[44:34] Mike Abrams: Well, I was going to say, did you know that before we started, I gave a very short work presentation, and I actually did not 60 seconds. I did like a 15, 20 seconds. I think you all need to know the plot of Cats for my story, and I did a extremely fast version for everybody, so I could do you that if you want.

[44:52] Ian Knauer: All right. Give me Cats. Go.

[44:53] Mike Abrams: 60 seconds remaining.

[44:54] Ian Knauer: Okay. This was also, I'll just preface. This was for work, so I very much had to tone this down from what I would have normally said.

[45:00] Mike Abrams: Embellish. Embellish.

[45:02] Ian Knauer: A group of cats called the Jellicles get together once a year to make a choice where they are going to sacrifice a cat to win, so they all want to win. So each cat sings a song about why they think they should win. They all end up in what I can only describe as a not work-appropriate dance number, and then a cat that hasn't been in the show for like 95% of it comes out, sings a song about how sad her life is, and then they decide, they put on attire, they blast her to the sky, to her death. End of musical.

[45:31] Mike Abrams: All right. I like it.

[45:33] Ian Knauer: Yeah, that's pretty good.

[45:35] Mike Abrams: I was not supposed to say orgy at the work meeting, so I had to tone that one down a little bit, but yeah.

[45:42] Ian Knauer: Not work-appropriate after dark scenario. All right, I get that. All right. So, Ian, three standard closing questions. I ask everyone to wrap up my episodes. First one, just simply, is what motivates you?

[45:51] Ian Knauer: I like to make people happy. I like people laughing. I like to make money.

[46:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I feel like that all is...

[46:06] Ian Knauer: Laughing, happy, money.

[46:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I like that. All right. What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[46:15] Ian Knauer: Just keep going. Keep following your intuition and your instinct. I always feel like you really need to know who you are and where you fit in not only the business, but also in shows. That is extremely helpful for knowing how to sell yourself. Keep training. Keep meeting people. Keep being social because this entire business is all in who you know and who knows you.

[46:50] Mike Abrams: Last question. Hardest one. If you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you see?

[46:58] Ian Knauer: I think it would be She Loves Me.

[47:00] Mike Abrams: That's a new one, I think.

[47:02] Ian Knauer: You've got to be kidding. She Loves Me on the 20th century, those are my two favorite musicals of all time.

[47:09] Mike Abrams: It's interesting. Before COVID, Sweeney Todd was hands down the leader.

[47:14] Ian Knauer: People would want to watch Sweeney Todd over and over?

[47:18] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[47:19] Ian Knauer: Oh, good God, no.

[47:21] Mike Abrams: And then post-COVID, it's just been anyone's guess. It's really been interesting. But yeah, I think She Loves Me, that's a new one.

[47:27] Ian Knauer: That is fascinating.

[47:27] Mike Abrams: I need to get No Book LM on this.

[47:29] Ian Knauer: I've never heard either of those two musicals.

[47:33] Mike Abrams: Well, they're both pretty amazing. So She Loves Me is heartfelt, beautiful, funny, and has a great ending. It's basically You've Got Mail.

[47:44] Ian Knauer: Okay, great movie.

[47:45] Mike Abrams: Based on another story.

[47:48] Ian Knauer: I enjoyed that movie.

[47:49] Mike Abrams: And On the 20th Century is just over-the-top ridiculousness and amazing music. Cy Coleman, Madeleine Kahn was one of the original stars on the stage. So there you go.

[48:05] Ian Knauer: I love the You've Got Mail. I recently saw Twelfth Night at Shakespeare in the Park, did not know anything about it going in. And as we're walking in, my friend goes, you've seen She's the Man, right? I'm like, yeah, that's it. I'm like, oh, okay. So the more you can frame some of these things, it actually makes it easier to follow. It's like, oh, I know that story, yeah.

[48:23] Mike Abrams: So you know where you're headed or where, and everything else then that is different or is, you know, it's really fun to watch.

[48:31] Ian Knauer: Okay, I'll have to check them out.

[48:32] Mike Abrams: All right, Mike, where can we find you on the social medias? Where can we connect with your podcast? All the fun stuff.

[48:36] Ian Knauer: At TheWrongCatDiet on all social media and TheWrongCatDiet.com.

[48:40] Mike Abrams: All right, Ian, where can we connect with you?

[48:42] Ian Knauer: On Instagram, The Ian Knauer, because there is another Ian Knauer who is a very famous chef.

[48:48] Mike Abrams: I know, and he looks like Drew Gasparini. Do you know Drew?

[48:51] Ian Knauer: I know who he is, yeah. I pulled up Ian Knauer, the chef today, and I was like, that's freaking Drew Gasparini.

[48:57] Mike Abrams: Well, and we didn't used to look anything alike, but now we do look a little bit alike, yeah.

[49:02] Ian Knauer: I texted Drew that picture, and I haven't heard back. So maybe eventually Drew will be like, shove it up your ass.

[49:10] Mike Abrams: You can get more of me at TheTheatrePodcast.com or on Broadway Podcast Network. I'm on Theatre Underscore Podcast or The Theatre Podcast on pretty much everywhere. Leave a rating, leave a review. Thanks to Jukebox The Ghost for the intro and outro music. Thanks to Welcome to Times Square for the studio we're in now, and Mike and Ian, thank you guys both so much. This has been a great little crossover episode.

[49:28] Ian Knauer: Super fun.

[49:28] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it was great.