This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ian Knauer: Hi, my name is Ian Knauer. Welcome to a special edition of The Wrong Cat Died with Mike Abrams and The Theatre Podcast with Alan Seales.

[0:06] Alan Seales: Everybody, welcome back to The Theatre Podcast. If you're listening in that feed, or maybe even hello to people over in The Wrong Cat Died podcast feed. This is an episode that's dropping in both feeds because it's me and Mike Abrams from The Wrong Cat Died podcast, teaming up as we do a crossover conversation with the wonderful Ian Knauer. And Ian's career has taken him from Broadway in Anastasia to the West End in Dirty Rotten Scoundrels and regional productions of Cats, which is actually why Mike joined us. He's performed as Jafar on Disney Cruise Lines, among many other things. And we dug into all of that, including some behind the scenes cruise ship stories, what it was like to finally land Cats after years of auditions. And because, of course, Mike was there, we got into a spirited debate about who really should have been chosen in Cats to be reborn. Spoiler alert, Ian makes a strong case for old Deuteronomy. No, I'm team Gus all the way. But a quick heads up, as a one man band, when it comes to running my own recording gear, sometimes I make mistakes. And this time I didn't catch that Ian's microphone was blocking his beautiful face on video. So if you're watching the video version, my apologies to that. Ian, if you're listening, I'm sorry, but trust me, the conversation more than makes up for it. So find me online on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, all the places. As I mentioned, there is video versions of this episode, so you can find those on Spotify or Patreon. Everybody, please enjoy this episode with guest co-hosts Mike Abrams and Ian Knauer.

[1:38] Alan Seales: All right, today is going to be, I'll call it a fun episode. I've got my longtime friend and co-host of The Wrong Cat Died podcast with me here today, as we decided to jointly interview this wonderful human sitting next to us here. He has an incredible career that spans Broadway, West End, regional theater, concerts, film, TV, and cruise ships. We'll get into that. He trained at University of Michigan, has built a career in musical theater, operetta, and acting both on stage and screen. Some of his notable stage credits include Broadway's Anastasia and Mamma Mia!, the West End's Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, numerous stage adaptations on Disney ships, throwback to the cruise ship, which is why he's here with us today, a regional production of Cats, which is why Mike is here today, and so much more. Guest host Mike Abrams of The Wrong Cat Died and podcast guest Ian Knauer, welcome to this joint episode of The Theatre Podcast and The Wrong Cat Died.

[2:44] Ian Knauer: Thank you. I'm very glad to be here. I'm pumped.

[2:50] Alan Seales: So for those of my listeners who don't know what The Wrong Cat Died is, mine's easier to explain. Mine's an interview resume rundown podcast. There, for The Wrong Cat Died listeners, that's who I am. For my listeners, who are you?

[3:01] Mike Abrams: I went to see Cats in 2016, and I thought the wrong cat died at the end of the musical, and it's become a podcast where I talk to people about Cats, and there's 250 episodes of talking to Cats performers, Cats superfans, a lot of people related to it, and the premise is we talk about the show, the plot, the character development, and why I don't think Grizabella was the right choice. So that's going to be a question for you at the end or sometime in today.

[3:29] Ian Knauer: That's coming. Yeah, I should have prepared.

[3:31] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's coming, but that's my show.

[3:34] Alan Seales: Excellent. Everybody has an opinion on whether Grizabella was the wrong cat to die, I think.

[3:38] Mike Abrams: I don't think anybody talked about it until 2019 when I started talking into a microphone about it.

[3:45] Ian Knauer: Yeah, part of the lore.

[3:51] Mike Abrams: Because there's regional productions that are spinning up that are always like, go listen to these episodes with the original cast members that you did that now give them the backstory. It's an undefined show, so it's great to have different versions of how people interpret it.

[4:09] Ian Knauer: Well, yeah, because it's all based on poetry and putting music together. I think there were a core group of people who were putting on the show for so long that they had their own lore and their own stories and their own, but also a lot of that was left up to the actors.

[4:28] Mike Abrams: Totally.

[4:29] Ian Knauer: So when I did it, we only had, I think, maybe two weeks to put the show together, which is insanity. And then we did it for two weeks at Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera. This was, I think, in 2007 or something like that. And we were very fortunate to have Richard Stafford.

[4:46] Mike Abrams: Legend.

[4:48] Ian Knauer: Right. So he was part of, I think, the original company, but anyway, has been a part of creating and putting together so many Cats around the world that it was pretty phenomenal to have that information. But not everything could be given because you only had so much time to put the show together.

[5:12] Mike Abrams: With a two-week production...

[5:13] Ian Knauer: That's what I was going to get into. Yeah.

[5:16] Mike Abrams: It's don't kick your dancing partner in the face type of things more than like, are they dating or not type of questions that I like to ask.

[5:23] Ian Knauer: You know, he was saying how normally they would take three days to do, I can't remember what they called it, but it was about finding who you were as a cat and finding out what your relationship with other people were. And to be honest with you, I thought it was all a bunch of hooey. I didn't understand it. I thought, just give me my blocking, I'll do it. And also, at the time, I was 39. So I had auditioned for the Broadway company a gazillion times as MonkaStrap because that was really kind of... I've always been a triple threat, but never like a real dancer. So I thought, okay, well, MonkaStrap, I think I can do. So it never happened. Kept auditioning, kept auditioning. So Richard knew who I was, and then the show closed, and I was in my 30s, and I thought, oh, so I auditioned for the tour. Never happened. So then I got to my mid-30s, and I said, right, never, ever happening for me because my body's just not going to be able to do it.

[6:26] Ian Knauer: So then Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera was doing a season that included White Christmas and Cats, amongst other things. And so I was being considered for one of the lead roles in White Christmas, but that person needed to also be in Cats. So I said, okay, well, I guess I'm auditioning for Cats and went in, and Richard Stafford was glorious. Got from behind the table, oh, it's so great to see you again. And I sang for him, and he said, I'd love for you to come back and move this afternoon. And I said, move, excellent. I'm an actor who moves.

[7:00] Mike Abrams: Not dance. Move, yes.

[7:00] Ian Knauer: So I came that afternoon in khakis and a polo and my character shoes saying, mover. And the combination was nowhere near movement, but he was very clear. He said, this is the big cat audition. And he said, just do what you can do. We want to see how much you can do. And it was really great. It actually was a very educational day as well for other reasons. That was the very first audition where I thought, oh, I can't do this combination every time. I have to mark it, or not only will I be able to not do the combination, but I won't be able to walk tomorrow. But I obviously learned how to do that because I was fortunate enough to get cast.

[7:53] Mike Abrams: Amazing.

[7:55] Ian Knauer: Yeah. And then I remember saying to him on the first day probably, I said, now Richard, I know this is called Cats, but the less I have to be on my knees, the better.

[8:09] Mike Abrams: And he laughed. And then he said, oh, you're serious? And I said, yeah, I'm serious. And he said, well, actually, you're playing MonkaStrap. Oh, we could have your pose, be standing. Okay, great. Why don't I just let you know when I need you to be on the ground and when you can get up? And I said, and I'll get myself down to the ground and get myself back up. And he said, great, that's a deal.

[8:38] Ian Knauer: But I bet you had some amazing dancers in White Christmas though.

[8:44] Mike Abrams: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, in a theater like Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera, the ensemble is there for all of the shows. So not only are they brilliant singers, but they're brilliant dancers. And they're young and hungry. And it's fantastic that they're ready to do whatever is thrown at them.

[9:06] Ian Knauer: Well, we're getting into the Disney Cruise side. We'll get into all of that where you and I met. But speaking of young and hungry, what was Young and Hungry Ian doing to get you started in theater?

[9:17] Ian Knauer: Yeah, well, for me, it started very, very early. So I'm originally from Toledo, Ohio. My parents were not in theater, but thankfully, they really loved the theater. So I used to go and see all of the national tours that came through town. So I was in choir at my church, and my choir teacher said, Ian, you should audition for this local professional dinner theater production of The Sound of Music. And I said, great, what's an audition? So she helped me fill out the paperwork. And I sang Wouldn't It Be Loverly from My Fair Lady. And out of about 500 kids, I got the part of Kurt. And there were, I think, three or four of us. So there were three different casts. So we rotated because we were all going to grade school at the time. And I did the show for about nine and a half months. I feel like I made around $300 a week.

[10:30] Ian Knauer: So I was doing pretty well, 11 years old, 1979. And I absolutely loved it. So that's where I fell in love with the theater. I fell in love with performing. I don't think I really understood it, but I found my people. I really felt like I fit in to this crazy group of people. And I kept going to school. And two years later, they were doing another show at that theater called Carousel, and I got cast as one of the snow children. And then I did lots of shows in high school. Luckily, the school that I went to had a great musical theater program.

[11:01] Mike Abrams: We were a horrible band.

[11:02] Ian Knauer: High school?

[11:04] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah.

[11:04] Ian Knauer: High school. Not middle school, no. And I feel like I did maybe one or two community theater shows. And then I had to make the decision about what was going to happen for school, because my parents said, no way are you going to do musical theater. Because, of course, nobody knew what a career in musical theater was back then, and there was no internet.

[11:27] Mike Abrams: If you know now, let me know.

[11:29] Ian Knauer: Exactly, right? So I thought, fair enough. So I loved helping people. So I did a double major. I got into the University of Michigan, and I double majored in musical theater and pre-med, you know, like you do. But of course, the pre-med part of it didn't last very long, because the courses weren't hard for me. I just was bored. So I just knew...

[11:56] Mike Abrams: You could always play the dentist in Little Shop of Horrors.

[11:58] Ian Knauer: Right. And back then, everyone was saying, oh, you can be on General Hospital, the soap opera. So Michigan was huge for me, because I did lots of really great shows there, but I learned really the tools that were necessary that I needed to make my way through this crazy business.

[12:23] Ian Knauer: So it was a pretty phenomenal place for me to learn and to learn who I was, too, because I don't think I would ever have been ready to go out into the world. I was not aware of who I really was. So that was really good, too. But learning how to audition, learning how to dance, learning how to pick up combinations. So pretty much everything I learned at Michigan just helped with every single audition. I feel like eventually when I moved to New York, it didn't feel easy, but it felt easy.

[13:00] Mike Abrams: You were ready.

[13:01] Ian Knauer: I was ready. Yeah. So I actually finished school in three and a half years. I don't know why I was such in a rush. And then I did a year at Disney World, dancing, actually, at MGM Studios, which is now Hollywood Studios. And then I did a theater summer stock gig out in California, and then I did a cruise ship job on the QE2, and then moved to New York, 1992, a little while ago.

[13:38] Mike Abrams: And then my first job was two weeks after I moved to the city. I got a job at Paper Mill Playhouse.

[13:45] Alan Seales: So you come to the city to leave the city. That's usually how it works.

[13:47] Ian Knauer: Well, but I mean, I was living at home. Yeah, exactly. It is. It is. Yeah.

[13:51] Mike Abrams: Well, so then we met on the Disney Treasure.

[13:55] Ian Knauer: Disney Fantasy.

[13:56] Mike Abrams: You sure?

[13:57] Ian Knauer: I've never been on the Disney Treasure.

[13:59] Mike Abrams: Well then, okay. We met on the Disney Fantasy, then. I can't keep the ships apart. No, the Treasure is the brand new one. That's why it's on my... Because I was researching it. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Sorry.

[14:10] Ian Knauer: You've been on too many Disney cruises, if you don't know the boats.

[14:13] Mike Abrams: Have you ever been on too many Disney cruise ships?

[14:17] Ian Knauer: I just was on Royal Caribbean, which is where Cats plays.

[14:22] Mike Abrams: Oh, did you see it?

[14:23] Ian Knauer: I didn't see Cats. I saw Back to the Future.

[14:25] Mike Abrams: Oh, yes.

[14:25] Ian Knauer: Did they do the DeLorean?

[14:27] Mike Abrams: They did the whole DeLorean. Well, I was on a trade before the cruise starts officially cruise. It was... I was the plus one. So I was happy to go. And it was great. The car does all the stuff. The car didn't do all the stuff every night I was there. But that's the part. I mean, it was like their dress rehearsal. So they were working through everything. Amazing cast. It's an incredible production to do it. No intermission, an hour and a half.

[14:56] Ian Knauer: Oh, they cut it.

[14:56] Mike Abrams: They cut it down. And it's really, really well done.

[15:00] Ian Knauer: Huh. You have the same look I'm thinking.

[15:03] Mike Abrams: Well, I'd love to. I've never seen it before. I heard it was so much fun on Broadway, and I just really wanted to see it.

[15:10] Ian Knauer: Yeah. Well, it's touring. It's touring right now.

[15:12] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[15:13] Ian Knauer: Or you can go on the Icon... I think it was the Icon of the... No, Stars of the Seas on Royal Caribbean, and you can see it for an hour and a half.

[15:23] Mike Abrams: But I noticed two songs that I knew were cut, and they shortened some other parts. But yeah, it's very well done.

[15:29] Ian Knauer: How did you get onto the ship? How does one become a guest Broadway performer? Because they made a whole thing out of you. Like, this is a... He's on Broadway, and now he's here, and he's in all these shows.

[15:40] Ian Knauer: Yeah. So a long time ago, I had heard little snippets of this. So all of these character guys had been doing this job, but no one was talking about it. I could not get information about it at all. And I thought, what is this? So I was doing Anastasia on Broadway, and a friend of mine came with her husband. And I didn't know her husband, and her husband and I were just... So I said, hey, what are you doing? And he's a Broadway guy. And he said, well, I'm doing this Broadway guest artist. I was like, wait, wait, wait, stop. What is it that you're doing? He said, really? I said, yeah, because, well, I'm the Broadway guest artist for the Disney cruise ships. And I said, great. What is that? Tell me exactly what it is.

[16:28] Ian Knauer: So he was telling me what the contract was and what it was that you did. And I thought, this sounds absolutely phenomenal. And then as the world happens, a person that I have known for quite a long time walked in to see Anastasia. We were chatting, and I said, what are you up to? She said, oh, I'm doing this and this. And no, I'm the New York casting director for Disney cruise lines. And I said, wait, what? So she got me an audition. And I went and auditioned. And originally, I was auditioning for Maurice in Beauty and the Beast. And then there's another character in a show called Disney's Believe, where you play the dad who doesn't believe in magic. And so I was excited about that, but they both felt very similar roles. And so then the audition was going very well, and I was asking all of these questions about what this job was. And so they said, great, that's good. You can go. Oh, actually, do you mind sight singing something for us? And I said, I don't mind at all. So they handed me the music for Jafar. And I said, yes, this is great. And they were like, really? And I said, yes, indeed. But I don't know it. So if you could just give me a moment, I'll learn it. So I sang it, and that is what they cast me in as Jafar. So it was a really lovely thing, because I left Anastasia and then gave it a try. So I was in Toronto with the rest of the cast. And the rest of the cast rehearses for two, two and a half months in Toronto. And then they're on the ship for about six to seven months. And so I rehearsed for about a month doing the two shows up in Toronto. And then went on the ship for just the first two months, because most of my contracts are about two months long, which is just perfect. And I absolutely loved it. And so I've kind of been splicing that in with regional work, with Broadway work, with other, other things.

[18:37] Alan Seales: Don't go anywhere. We're going to take a quick commercial break.

[18:40] Alan Seales: All right, everyone, now we're back. So I saw you in Norway on that leg of the trip. Where else have you been?

[18:47] Ian Knauer: Well, that particular ship, it really lives in the Caribbean.

[18:51] Mike Abrams: Right.

[18:52] Ian Knauer: So because the Disney Fantasy was going to dry dock in about two weeks...

[18:57] Mike Abrams: Right now, actually, I think.

[18:59] Ian Knauer: Yeah. They took the ship across and made it a whole shebang and did the Mediterranean.

[19:06] Mike Abrams: Oh, that's where they did it. Interesting.

[19:06] Ian Knauer: So that they always like to have a ship that's in the Mediterranean doing Mediterranean cruises. And I think the Disney Dream is going there next year, but they have already done their dry dock. So I believe they're going to have some ship because there are quite a few Disney ships at the moment. They keep releasing like one a year, I think, at this point. They're going to do that for the next while. And I have a little insider information, and I know I'm going to butcher this fact. So just research it to verify. But that's what all the ships say they're based out of Nassau because Nassau, a country has to own a boat, a cruise ship. And it has to go to Nassau and do the Caribbean for two years to get the tax purposes or something. Every new ship is always, I think, going to go to the Caribbean for two years. And then that'll shift other ships to other parts of the world. Although I don't know that the Adventure is. I'll be curious to see what they do.

[20:07] Mike Abrams: Isn't the Adventure the one, though, that they bought partially built?

[20:10] Ian Knauer: So that's a separate financial arrangement.

[20:13] Mike Abrams: Oh, I see.

[20:14] Ian Knauer: Because that one they bought off of another cruise ship, a cruise line that went bankrupt, I think. So they're retrofitting it. So I think it's a whole different thing.

[20:21] Mike Abrams: Oh, okay. I don't know.

[20:22] Ian Knauer: They have to stop in Nassau.

[20:24] Mike Abrams: Yeah, for like two years, I think.

[20:25] Ian Knauer: But they have to stop before they let passengers on.

[20:28] Mike Abrams: So it's all for tax purposes.

[20:31] Ian Knauer: Yeah, it's all taxes. Anyway, I want to touch on Cats a little bit because Mike is here. I have never been part of a debate with a guest, I think, on your podcast. I've been on your podcast a couple times, Mike.

[20:43] Mike Abrams: You've been on a few times, but it's always been more conversations about other stuff.

[20:47] Ian Knauer: Right, right, right. So I want to put it out there that I think Griz flat out wrong cat to die.

[20:55] Mike Abrams: Great.

[20:55] Ian Knauer: I would put Gus number one. Gus is definitely number one for me. I mean, the dude, he's lived a life. He's old. He needs to come back.

[21:05] Mike Abrams: You know what we've never figured out? When you get reborn, do you keep your memories? So there's a lot of open-ended questions, which is a big part of this debate. And that's where I'll start. I'm not going to answer that question because I want to hear how you answer it first, and then I will maybe influence some of those decisions.

[21:23] Ian Knauer: So what am I answering?

[21:24] Mike Abrams: Who do you think is the right cat to die?

[21:29] Ian Knauer: I've never really actually thought of her dying. I just thought she was going to another place because we were losing her. But yeah, she's dead. I mean, I guess old Deuteronomy because he's the one who's kind of taking care of everybody. So of course, I feel like he's the one that has been taking care of everyone. Why doesn't he get taken care of?

[21:52] Mike Abrams: And that is such a MonkaStrap answer. I love it. It's like, you're ready to take over. It's like, let's get this guy out of the way. Done. I'm ready. I'm in charge now.

[22:01] Ian Knauer: Yeah. Okay. No notes. It's not Grizabella. I'm for it.

[22:07] Mike Abrams: But do you think they get to keep their memories when you're reborn? Because I'm going to say, with Gus, with the skills he has developed in this life, he'd come back and just be a star.

[22:16] Ian Knauer: Yeah. Well, let's say yes then. I think that's a great idea. I mean, of course, that's going on, but the cats have nine lives, so why not?

[22:25] Ian Knauer: I think the root of the question still is, what does the Heaviside Lair mean? So to your point, do they get their memories back? Do they come back to the same tribe? Do they come back in the same body? Do they come back just younger and reborn? Because that's the main argument of my particular thesis is that she, Grizabella, does all this stuff. She's coming back. They finally accept her. They finally are ready. And in a few productions, they've made it clear that Sillabob's her daughter. There's some version of like, this is family. And it's like, all right, now we're going to send you up to the sky. I want her to have a year. I want one more year. She can be next year's choice. Great. She can have a birthday party or something. Spend some time with the family that just finally accepted you.

[23:10] Ian Knauer: That is true. It does seem...

[23:14] Mike Abrams: I put others ahead of her for the next year.

[23:19] Ian Knauer: Even next year. Okay.

[23:21] Mike Abrams: This begs a philosophical question. Do you deserve, and I put the word deserve loosely in quotes, do you deserve to be reborn because you've experienced bad things out of your control or because you've made choices that you can't recover from? What makes you a deserving candidate? Do you have to be a good person? A good cat?

[23:46] Ian Knauer: I don't think there is anything. Because clearly, as we have seen in life, that's not the way it works. But we're talking about what would we like. So in our version, yeah, sure. It's a redemption story. I don't think it's clear if she made the wrong decisions or she ended up in a bad situation. And I think you could definitely interpret that either way.

[24:08] Mike Abrams: Right. So I think she's done a little of both. I think she's ended up in bad places because of bad decisions. So I would put somebody... Granted, we don't know what Gus has done previous to what we see. He could have done some things to get him on stage.

[24:19] Ian Knauer: We haven't canceled Gus yet, but we could.

[24:27] Mike Abrams: We haven't written that story of what Gus did a couple years ago or before the internet.

[24:33] Ian Knauer: Skimbleshanks, what's happening on the railway? Or Bustopher, he deserves to be reborn just because he overeats? I still remember... So the first 10 episodes was me trying to decipher the show as someone who's not really seen it that well.

[24:48] Mike Abrams: Right. He's a sports guy, by the way. I want to preface this.

[24:50] Ian Knauer: Through and through.

[24:51] Mike Abrams: Sport, hockey, basketball, everything.

[24:53] Ian Knauer: I still... When I went to see the international tour, they invited me and I went. I went because I went to Wimbledon, and I was already pretty close to there. And I was like, yeah, I'll just... I'll add tack on a day. But I remember so vividly I got yelled at by a Skimbleshanks because I called him Creepy Uncle Skimble because... And I know the exact...

[25:20] Ian Knauer: I would have yelled at you too.

[25:21] Mike Abrams: I know the exact moment, and I know I'm wrong now in it. But when I watched that he, at one point, it looks like... I think he's supposed to be taking off clothes to pretend that he's going to sleep in the sleeper train as part of the dance number. And I'm like, this guy's stripping in front of all of his nieces and nephews. And I was like... And then once I heard more of... Because I knew nothing in these first 10 episodes. I was really watching the YouTube clips being like, well, that's kind of interesting. And here's what I think it is. Now I'm like, okay, no, he's...

[25:49] Ian Knauer: Oh, wait. So in your episodes...

[25:51] Mike Abrams: The episodes.

[25:52] Ian Knauer: You had a Skimbleshanks reach out to you and yet...

[25:54] Mike Abrams: One of the first Skimbleshanks I interviewed was like, I got a bone to pick with you.

[25:58] Ian Knauer: Oh.

[25:59] Mike Abrams: Like right away. Right away.

[26:00] Ian Knauer: That's fun.

[26:01] Mike Abrams: Which was great.

[26:01] Ian Knauer: Yeah. Well, you've done something right.

[26:04] Mike Abrams: You evolve. I didn't know at the time. I didn't know who half the characters were when I was writing them.

[26:09] Ian Knauer: I don't think many people do.

[26:11] Mike Abrams: I do now.

[26:11] Ian Knauer: I oftentimes think it's a little more interesting to be in it than it is to see it.

[26:17] Mike Abrams: A lot of people think that. Because you get so ingrained in much more the story and the family, then you can't watch it and notice all the things happening. There's too much going on.

[26:27] Ian Knauer: Exactly.

[26:28] Mike Abrams: So it is hard. But I think that's why there's also a huge super fandom, because they'll go back and watch just those two cats or just that storyline and all those other things happening. You could go watch it 100 times and learn something new.

[26:40] Ian Knauer: And you'll always see something different. Yeah.

[26:42] Mike Abrams: I think we need you, Mike, to write a mockumentary screenplay about a reality show. It's following all the cats behind the scenes, all their relationships, flashbacks to what happened to cause them to be how they are, who they are now. We need to know. We need to get all these characters, all of the character names that are never sung, that are never mentioned, but are consistent in every single performance that goes on.

[27:03] Ian Knauer: Yeah. So I did a little bit of that with Peter.

[27:15] Mike Abrams: Right. Right. But you need a full screenplay.

[27:17] Ian Knauer: I need to go the rest. Yeah. Okay.

[27:18] Mike Abrams: You need to do everything. We need to know who's been sleeping with who to produce this kitten that turned up to screw over this person. And we need a behind-the-scenes drama.

[27:27] Ian Knauer: But there's no consistency. Make it. But I can't make that, because I'll have one show that will definitely do it this way, and then another show will definitely do it that way. And neither are wrong. They make different decisions of where they place them on stage or where they have them dancing together.

[27:42] Mike Abrams: Well, and also, if you don't have enough money to have all of the cats, then it's going to be...

[27:46] Ian Knauer: Or the reverse is, in high school, you have too many performers that you have 25 cats that don't have other names. There was a Civic production. They did four in Westerville, Ohio. They did four shows. They had 66 people.

[28:00] Mike Abrams: What?

[28:01] Ian Knauer: Yep.

[28:02] Mike Abrams: What about...

[28:03] Ian Knauer: That's quite a choice to do Cats.

[28:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah. They did four. They did it in a garden. I was so mad I almost was able to make the trip happen. I was so close to being able to go. It was just outside Columbus. I had them on the show. They were so fun. It was so interesting hearing how they did it. It was like father-sons were doing stuff. There was a lot of... It was really cool. They did four particular... four shows. And I was fascinated by 66. It's somewhere on YouTube, I think. I don't know if you can find it. They sent it to me. It's beautiful, because there's so many cats everywhere. It's so cool to see. But they have names that you've never heard.

[28:37] Ian Knauer: Yeah. And Fulton Theater in Pennsylvania just did... They had like 30-ish, because they had all the...

[28:40] Mike Abrams: On stage.

[28:44] Ian Knauer: The Coaster Kittens that we interviewed.

[28:45] Mike Abrams: Oh, I didn't know that.

[28:46] Ian Knauer: Yeah. They had a bunch of high school and college kids that were... They made up their own names, and they made up their own stories. It's a bonus episode that we released where we went and sat with them all, and they had the most fun doing it. But it also... You got to see it twice, right?

[29:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[29:02] Ian Knauer: It was visually incredible.

[29:04] Mike Abrams: It was beautiful.

[29:04] Ian Knauer: Because there's cats everywhere. There's cats behind you.

[29:07] Mike Abrams: That's a beautiful theater.

[29:07] Ian Knauer: They built a set out of steel, and they were climbing up two, three stories, hanging off of the sides of the proscenium, and it was insane. All right. So for the record, Ian, did the wrong cat die?

[29:16] Ian Knauer: Yes. Yes.

[29:20] Mike Abrams: And your vote is Old Deuteronomy.

[29:22] Ian Knauer: Old Deuteronomy. I'm for it.

[29:24] Mike Abrams: So you got to tally this one.

[29:25] Alan Seales: Oh, I've got a record. I've got it. I keep track.

[29:28] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[29:28] Ian Knauer: Old Deuteronomy, he's got a handful of votes.

[29:31] Mike Abrams: I would imagine so.

[29:31] Ian Knauer: It's a Gus Grisabella race.

[29:33] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[29:33] Alan Seales: Oh, really?

[29:34] Ian Knauer: Yeah.

[29:34] Mike Abrams: Oh, interesting.

[29:35] Alan Seales: So with that out of the way, it's now time for something I just made up that you don't know about, Mike.

[29:38] Ian Knauer: There's a cat over there.

[29:40] Mike Abrams: And the wrong one died.

[29:42] Alan Seales: Or did they? All right. So, Ian, Mike, it's time for a little game. I'm going to call The Wrong Cat Died or Did They? I'm going to throw out some famous deaths from stage and screen, and you two get to decide. I want you to debate whether the right character died for the story, or was it really the wrong cat that died for the story? We're using cat very loosely in this situation. All right. So feel free to defend, debate, do whatever you want. All right. So the first one scenario, the first person here, first catson, first cat, is from Les Mis, Javert takes the final leap. Was his death the only ending possible, or was Javert actually the wrong cat who died?

[30:21] Ian Knauer: That is a very good question. I don't think he needed to die, but I don't think he was the wrong person to die.

[30:28] Mike Abrams: Well, you could have said that about Grisabella.

[30:30] Ian Knauer: Well, yeah.

[30:31] Alan Seales: I need a definitive answer.

[30:32] Mike Abrams: And you too, Mike. You know how little I know about so many other theater shows.

[30:39] Mike Abrams: You know, Les Mis, I've seen probably once in a dinner theater that I don't remember as a child, and then I saw the movie years ago.

[30:52] Alan Seales: All right. Pick Fantine.

[30:53] Ian Knauer: So, yeah. Sure. I think the... I mean, I'm just going to stick to my show, The Wrong Cat Died.

[30:59] Alan Seales: Okay. So you both are in agreement. All right. Javert didn't need to die. Possibly not the wrong one, but didn't need to. All right. Number two. Let's see. Titanic, the film. I know you've seen Titanic.

[31:10] Ian Knauer: Yeah. And I've seen Titanic, like, many times.

[31:14] Mike Abrams: Which is amazing.

[31:15] Ian Knauer: Which is just the same thing.

[31:16] Alan Seales: Titanic is lore. Yeah. So Jack sinks while Rose floats on that damn door. Was he truly the wrong cat to die, or just was it bad carpentry?

[31:29] Ian Knauer: I don't think I'm really understanding this. I mean, I'd love for him to have lived, because that would have been interesting to see them together. But do you mean, do I feel like Rose should have died?

[31:44] Mike Abrams: Sure. Any other character. This could be any other character from the show or the movie.

[31:50] Ian Knauer: A lot of them die in the movie.

[31:52] Mike Abrams: True.

[31:53] Ian Knauer: True. Maybe this wasn't the best one. Okay. Rose or Jack, or neither.

[31:57] Ian Knauer: I didn't really care for her mother. I mean, I think she's fabulous, and she looked great, and she's an amazing actress, but she was a nasty piece of work to everybody.

[32:09] Mike Abrams: I'm having to remember. I've seen Titanic too many times. I'm like, what actually happened in the real movie? I think there's room on the board for both of them.

[32:16] Ian Knauer: And Celine Dion.

[32:17] Mike Abrams: I know that that's been debated, right? That's been myth-bust.

[32:20] Ian Knauer: Yeah.

[32:20] Mike Abrams: Why didn't he just pull himself up?

[32:22] Ian Knauer: James Cameron busted the myth.

[32:24] Ian Knauer: Yeah.

[32:24] Mike Abrams: James Cameron actually tested and recreated that scene that he filmed and proved through body monitors, like made ice cold water to people that probably signed a lot of waivers. And when the dude was shivering so hard, his body temperature rose enough to keep him alive long enough so that whatever the rescue ship would have made it in time.

[32:48] Ian Knauer: Oh, so he would have made it.

[32:49] Mike Abrams: They would have made it. They both would have made it.

[32:51] Ian Knauer: Yeah, she should have moved over. He could have hopped on.

[32:53] Mike Abrams: I'll throw that video in the show notes.

[32:55] Ian Knauer: Okay. I love it.

[32:56] Mike Abrams: But it is on YouTube. That's where I was like, holy shit, they both could have lived.

[33:00] Ian Knauer: I think the Mythbusters guy also, they tried to do the density of would him hopping on sink them.

[33:06] Mike Abrams: No, but that's what James Cameron did. So they had the dude, the guy, same build and same everything as Leo DiCaprio. He did it right and crawl up on and the lady had to get on the other side to counterbalance it, but they made it and they both would have survived.

[33:21] Ian Knauer: Then that's the way the movie should have ended.

[33:24] Mike Abrams: There we go.

[33:24] Ian Knauer: Instead of with the necklace that I still don't understand what the whole point of that was through the whole movie.

[33:30] Mike Abrams: No, it's not the whole thing. All right. So Romeo and Juliet in Shakespeare's Ultimate Tragedy, was it Romeo, Juliet, Mercutio, Tybalt? Who should have died instead of Romeo and or Juliet?

[33:41] Ian Knauer: And Juliet. We don't have to make this decision.

[33:46] Mike Abrams: No. Did anybody? I think Juliet's parents deserve to get at least like a kick in the side or something.

[33:52] Ian Knauer: Yeah, I agree with that.

[33:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, we're talking about deserve.

[33:58] Ian Knauer: There you go. Yeah. Good callback. Like who could have died to make it a more interesting story?

[34:05] Mike Abrams: Oh, you don't think it's... I mean, that's an interesting statement. I think it's fairly interesting to make it both of them dying. Because actually, I don't feel like it would have held as nearly as much of a punch if the vicar died or if...

[34:23] Mike Abrams: Or Bonvolio or whatever.

[34:25] Ian Knauer: Yeah. Did you say Bonholio?

[34:27] Mike Abrams: Bonvolio. What's his name?

[34:28] Ian Knauer: Benvolio.

[34:28] Mike Abrams: I've also seen Anne Juliet many times. I've seen Romeo and Juliet once, and it was the recent one, which was the Gen Z version that was very hard to follow at times, because this is someone who doesn't know it. I was like, oh yeah, why is there Celsius on stage?

[34:46] Ian Knauer: But if Beavis and Bud had recreated Bonholio, it's a great movie.

[34:49] Mike Abrams: Bonholio. That'd be great. I would have watched that one.

[34:52] Ian Knauer: Yeah. Bonholio. I need TP for my death serum.

[34:55] Alan Seales: Okay, we'll do two more. Let's see. The Lion King, Mufasa Falls, and that stampede. It is tragic.

[35:04] Ian Knauer: Traumatic.

[35:06] Mike Abrams: Was he the wrong cat who died, literally? Or was Scar overdue for some karma earlier? Would Simba still have gone on that journey?

[35:14] Ian Knauer: No.

[35:15] Mike Abrams: No?

[35:15] Ian Knauer: No. It was necessary for Simba to actually become... Because he would have had his father. His father would have been actually...

[35:23] Mike Abrams: He would have grown up and been a trust fund baby or something.

[35:25] Ian Knauer: He would have took over eventually, right, though?

[35:28] Mike Abrams: I mean, who knows? True. He would have.

[35:29] Ian Knauer: Yeah. I mean, who knows?

[35:31] Mike Abrams: That was a traumatic moment for me as a child, so I would say I would prefer if he didn't, but I do think that that has to happen. But Scar, I don't know. Scar's kind of like, let's kill Macavity. It's like, do we need to kill the villain?

[35:46] Ian Knauer: No, because I often play the villains, so I like the villains.

[35:50] Alan Seales: Okay, so this last one is going to be, I think, more difficult to nail down because it's going to be Wicked slash Wizard of Oz. Between Fiyero's transformation that we see in Wicked and, of course, we know the death of Nessa Rose as the Wicked Witch of the East in Wizard of Oz, was Nessa Rose the wrong cat to die?

[36:14] Ian Knauer: Yes, that's a very interesting question because we get to know... Because the Wicked Witch in the Wizard of Oz and the Wicked Witch, or Elphaba, are two very different people.

[36:27] Mike Abrams: Right.

[36:27] Ian Knauer: And so, can we say that Nessa Rose and the Wicked Witch of the East are two different people? But also, Nessa Rose is a very different person from the first act to the second act when she becomes powerful, or I don't know what it is, but she turns. But yes, I don't like that Fiyero becomes...

[37:01] Mike Abrams: I have a very different question about this.

[37:01] Ian Knauer: The Wizard of Oz is essentially her having a concussion.

[37:08] Mike Abrams: Sure.

[37:09] Ian Knauer: The sports version is it's her CTE.

[37:11] Mike Abrams: Well, why is it?

[37:14] Ian Knauer: And so now, Wicked is writing further depth of the backstory of her concussion.

[37:21] Mike Abrams: Or is it?

[37:24] Ian Knauer: Because in that case, who's in the very beginning of the Wizard of Oz on the bike riding in the tornado?

[37:29] Mike Abrams: Elvira Gulch.

[37:32] Ian Knauer: Right.

[37:32] Mike Abrams: Is that... Isn't she supposed to be the... Is she the witch?

[37:36] Ian Knauer: Yeah.

[37:37] Mike Abrams: Because I think that that person in the beginning, that scared me as a child, so that is who I think should die. But I still constantly think about the Wizard of Oz being a concussion.

[37:46] Ian Knauer: It's a fever dream.

[37:48] Mike Abrams: It's a fever dream and concussion.

[37:50] Ian Knauer: I'll accept that. I'll take that answer.

[37:52] Mike Abrams: I grew up in the Midwest, so tornadoes were very prevalent. And I watched that movie a ton. My mom put it on all the time for my sister and I. And every time I watched it, I was like, well, there's a tornado coming. And am I going to get hit and end up in Munchkinland? That was my fear for a while. And it was kind of exciting, but then it's not. Then I saw Wicked the first time and I'm like, wait a second, this is... We're going deeper into her concussion.

[38:15] Alan Seales: Well, okay. But granted, at the time we're recording this, part two, Wicked, hasn't come out.

[38:20] Ian Knauer: Part two hasn't come out yet.

[38:21] Mike Abrams: So we don't know. I like the darkness that part two is rumored to go into and the transformation of Nessa Rose that we haven't seen yet. I don't know. I'm excited to see that, which I think will really add a lot of depth.

[38:34] Ian Knauer: A two and a half hour with intermission play turned into a three and a half, four hour, five hour, six hour movie.

[38:41] Mike Abrams: Side note, did you know that people are showing up to the Broadway show now upset that it is spoiling the movie for them?

[38:49] Ian Knauer: I heard that right when after the first movie came out. And some people left at intermission.

[38:54] Mike Abrams: Because they don't want to hear it.

[38:55] Ian Knauer: They didn't want to see it. They wanted to see what they saw on stage and then left. Yeah.

[39:00] Alan Seales: Wow.

[39:01] Ian Knauer: Well, spoiler. For those who don't know, the stage show was first, people.

[39:06] Mike Abrams: How long has it been out?

[39:08] Ian Knauer: It's like I can't spoil Cats. I can't spoil Cats. It's been on for 40 years.

[39:12] Mike Abrams: Wicked's been out, I think, long enough that I hope we don't have to say the spoiler word.

[39:17] Ian Knauer: You haven't seen the first movie?

[39:19] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[39:19] Ian Knauer: You want to see it on the big screen and then we just didn't have time. And thankfully, because I was working and busy and then it left the big screen and we were like, nope, we want to wait.

[39:29] Mike Abrams: I think we're going to do the back to back.

[39:32] Ian Knauer: Yeah, that's what we're...

[39:34] Mike Abrams: But you need a full day.

[39:35] Ian Knauer: Yeah, we'll figure it out.

[39:37] Alan Seales: Six and a half hours of movie.

[39:39] Mike Abrams: Still works for Harry Potter on the West End.

[39:41] Ian Knauer: That's true. That's true.

[39:43] Mike Abrams: American audiences don't have that attention span.

[39:44] Ian Knauer: I want to see the Wizard of Oz at the Sphere.

[39:47] Mike Abrams: Yes.

[39:49] Ian Knauer: Yes, I just heard about that.

[39:50] Mike Abrams: Yes.

[39:51] Ian Knauer: Oh, I was looking at the behind the scenes of this because you're looking at something now 360 and it was filmed obviously in panoramic. So there are times they used AI to fill in the sides because when a camera... Like in the scene, for example, at the beginning where... No, at the end when everybody's running around Dorothy and she wakes up from her fever dream and then they cut over to the side and someone's on the side and they cut back to Dorothy. That person still exists on the side, which you can see if you have a wider feel of view.

[40:22] Mike Abrams: Right.

[40:22] Ian Knauer: So they have to extrapolate and create all of this additional stuff along with the wind and everything. They just made it a full immersive experience.

[40:31] Mike Abrams: I can't wait.

[40:32] Ian Knauer: Yeah, yeah. I'm going to... I got to check that out next time I'm out there.

[40:35] Mike Abrams: Yeah. But it is the movie.

[40:37] Ian Knauer: Yeah, it's the movie.

[40:38] Alan Seales: It is the original movie with extra width added on to the original.

[40:42] Mike Abrams: It's like your TV expanded for it. And they added apples fall from the tree into the audience and tornado has wind and they really went for it.

[40:53] Alan Seales: We're going to take a quick break for a few commercials.

[40:57] Alan Seales: All right, everyone. Welcome back to the episode. Did you play any... in the Monkish Trap relationships, which ones do you remember? Did you play any that stick out as like, oh, I definitely did that?

[41:06] Ian Knauer: Oh, wow. That is a very good question. I did, but could I tell you what they were? No.

[41:16] Alan Seales: Okay.

[41:17] Ian Knauer: It was a really incredible group of people. And I think that was... I can't remember if that was the first show and then White Christmas was after it. So therefore, we were still getting to know one another.

[41:32] Ian Knauer: What was very interesting is at the beginning of every rehearsal period, you're supposed to have this three-day improv time, and we didn't have any of that. And so at the very end, just before we did our final run in the rehearsal room, he said, right, I'm going to give you 15 minutes to improv. This is what we would have done at the beginning of the week. And it was phenomenal to me how everyone was playing as their character. It was a fascinating thing. And really, I thought, oh, I get it. This would be extremely helpful in telling of the story, because you're taking ownership of whatever relationships you are, this is what you're asking, developing. But no, I can't tell you because I can't remember.

[42:22] Alan Seales: Okay. After, I'll give you the Monkish Trap rundown of like, here are the things people thought about.

[42:27] Ian Knauer: Oh, fantastic. Yeah.

[42:29] Alan Seales: We've got plenty. We've got it all, slowly AI-ing it, so it's going to be ready to go. Okay. So I like to wrap up, warm down? Oh, man. All right. I need coffee. I like to end my episodes with a couple standard things here. The first one is called Plot in 60 Seconds. So I have a list of 17 popular musicals right here in front of me. You're going to give me a number that is one through 17 that will correspond to a popular musical on my list, and then you give me the plot to that musical in 60 seconds or less.

[43:03] Ian Knauer: Wow.

[43:04] Alan Seales: Six.

[43:06] Ian Knauer: Six. But we already talked about this a little bit. It's Les Mis, go!

[43:09] Alan Seales: 60 seconds remaining.

[43:10] Ian Knauer: Oh, my word. All right. So there is, oh, I'm not going to be able to do this. There's a guy who steals some candles. He has to go to jail, and then he does a lot of redemption, does a lot of work. He becomes this upstanding citizen and kind of helps a whole bunch of people, but it comes out that he is this person who is in jail.

[43:42] Alan Seales: 30 seconds remaining.

[43:44] Ian Knauer: Wow. This is going to be riveting. I just really am so excited about this telling. And then he is able to continue helping people, and then there are a whole other bunch of people and a whole bunch of other stories that also happen, and it has really great music, and that's the plot of Les Mis.

[44:07] Alan Seales: Didn't he steal a loaf of bread?

[44:09] Ian Knauer: Yeah.

[44:09] Alan Seales: You said candles.

[44:12] Ian Knauer: Oh, he stole a loaf of bread, but didn't he go to the priest's house? Oh, no, maybe he gave those to him.

[44:20] Alan Seales: Are you thinking of Great Gatsby?

[44:22] Ian Knauer: No, no.

[44:22] Alan Seales: No, not Great Gatsby. Great Expectations. I was like, and then there's this great benefactor who did this thing.

[44:27] Mike Abrams: This is one of the scenes.

[44:31] Ian Knauer: Too many greats.

[44:32] Alan Seales: Do you want to do one, Mike?

[44:34] Mike Abrams: Well, I was going to say, did you know that, so before we started, I gave a very short work presentation, and I actually did not 60 seconds. I did like a 15, 20 seconds, like, I think you all need to know the plot of Cats for my story, and I did a extremely fast version for everybody, so I could do you that if you want.

[44:52] Alan Seales: All right. Give me Cats. Go.

[44:53] Ian Knauer: 60 seconds remaining.

[44:54] Mike Abrams: Okay. This was also, I'll just preface, this was for work, so I very much had to tone this down from what I would have normally said.

[45:01] Ian Knauer: Embellish.

[45:02] Mike Abrams: A group of cats called the Jellicles get together once a year to make a choice where they're going to sacrifice a cat to win, so they all want to win, so each cat sings a song about why they think they should win. They all end up in what I can only describe as a not work-appropriate dance number, and then a cat that hasn't been in the show for like 95% of it comes out, sings a song about how sad her life is, and then they decide, they put on attire, they blast her to the sky to her death. End of musical.

[45:31] Alan Seales: All right.

[45:32] Ian Knauer: I like it.

[45:34] Alan Seales: Yeah, that's pretty good.

[45:35] Mike Abrams: I was not supposed to say orgy at the work meeting, so I had to tone that one down a little bit, but yeah.

[45:42] Alan Seales: Not work-appropriate after dark scenario. All right, I get that. All right. So, Ian, three standard closing questions. I ask everyone to wrap up my episodes. First one, just simply, is what motivates you?

[45:53] Ian Knauer: Um, I like to make people happy. I like people laughing. I like to make money.

[46:02] Alan Seales: Yeah, I feel like that all is...

[46:06] Ian Knauer: Laughing, happy, money.

[46:07] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[46:07] Ian Knauer: I like that. All right. What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[46:15] Ian Knauer: Just keep going. Keep following your intuition and your instinct. I always feel like you really need to know who you are and where you fit in not only the business, but also in shows. That is extremely helpful for knowing how to sell yourself. Keep training. Keep meeting people. Keep being social, because this entire business is all in who you know and who knows you.

[46:49] Alan Seales: Mm-hmm. Last question. Hardest one. If you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you see?

[46:55] Ian Knauer: I think it would be She Loves Me.

[47:00] Mike Abrams: That's a new one, I think.

[47:03] Ian Knauer: You've got to be kidding. She Loves Me on the 20th century, those are my two favorite musicals of all time.

[47:09] Alan Seales: It's interesting. Before COVID, Sweeney Todd was hands down the leader.

[47:14] Mike Abrams: People would want to watch Sweeney Todd over and over?

[47:19] Ian Knauer: Oh, good God, no.

[47:21] Mike Abrams: And then post-COVID, it's just been anyone's guess. It's really been interesting. But yeah, I think She Loves Me, that's a new one.

[47:27] Ian Knauer: That is fascinating.

[47:28] Mike Abrams: I need to get Notebook LM on this.

[47:29] Ian Knauer: I've never heard either of those two musicals, so...

[47:33] Mike Abrams: Well, they're both pretty amazing.

[47:34] Ian Knauer: Okay.

[47:35] Mike Abrams: So She Loves Me is heartfelt, beautiful, funny, and has a great ending. It's basically You've Got Mail.

[47:44] Ian Knauer: Okay.

[47:45] Mike Abrams: I mean, obviously, it's based on another story.

[47:48] Ian Knauer: I enjoyed that movie.

[47:49] Mike Abrams: And On the 20th Century is just over-the-top ridiculousness and amazing music. Cy Coleman, yeah, Madeline Kahn was one of the original stars on the stage. So there you go.

[48:05] Ian Knauer: I love the You've Got Mail. I recently saw Twelfth Night at Shakespeare in the Park, did not know anything about it going in. And as we're walking in, my friend goes, you've seen She's the Man, right? I'm like, yeah, that's it. I'm like, oh, okay. So the more you can frame some of these things, it actually makes it easier to follow. It's like, oh, I know that story. Yeah.

[48:23] Mike Abrams: So you know where you're headed and everything else then that is different or it's really fun to watch.

[48:27] Ian Knauer: Okay. I'll have to check them out.

[48:32] Alan Seales: All right, Mike, where can we find you on the social medias? Where can we connect with your podcast? All the fun stuff.

[48:37] Mike Abrams: At TheWrongCatDiet on all social media and thewrongcatdiet.com.

[48:40] Alan Seales: All right, Ian, where can we connect with you?

[48:42] Ian Knauer: On Instagram, The Ian Knauer, because there is another Ian Knauer who is a very famous chef.

[48:48] Mike Abrams: I know. And he looks like Drew Gasparini. Do you know Drew?

[48:52] Ian Knauer: I know who he is. Yeah. I pulled up Ian Knauer the chef today and I was like, that's freaking Drew Gasparini.

[48:56] Mike Abrams: Well, and we didn't used to look anything alike, but now we do look a little bit alike. Yeah.

[49:03] Ian Knauer: I texted Drew that picture and I haven't heard back. So maybe eventually Drew will be like, shove it up your ass. You can get more of me at thetheaterpodcast.com or on Broadway Podcast Network. I'm on theater underscore podcast or The Theatre Podcast on pretty much everywhere. Leave a rating, leave a review. Thanks to Jukebox the Ghost for the intro and outro music. Thanks to Welcome to Times Square for the studio we're in now. And Mike and Ian, thank you guys both so much. This has been a great little crossover episode. Super fun.

[49:29] Ian Knauer: Yeah, it was great.