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[0:30] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart, creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:45] Laura Camien: And I'm Laura Camien. And we are creativity coaches who help people clarify and accomplish their creative goals.

[0:51] Laura Camien: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[0:57] Laura Camien: But hold up, you might be asking yourself, what exactly is a Spark File?

[1:02] Susan Blackwell: A Spark File is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:08] Laura Camien: Every episode, we're going to reach into our very own Spark Files and exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're going to talk to some folks who spark us too.

[1:17] Susan Blackwell: And your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take some of those sparks of inspiration and make something of your own.

[1:25] Laura Camien: So without further ado, let's open up the Spark File.

[1:30] Susan Blackwell: Season six, baby.

[1:31] Laura Camien: Season six of the Spark File.

[1:34] Susan Blackwell: How fun is that?

[1:35] Laura Camien: It's super duper fun.

[1:37] Susan Blackwell: I'm not sure if this will be the first episode that we post.

[1:40] Laura Camien: I think it will be and should be and we shall make it so.

[1:46] Susan Blackwell: We shall make it so.

[1:47] Laura Camien: And we shall make it so because you know what? We own this thing.

[1:50] Susan Blackwell: We're the bosses of this podcast.

[1:55] Laura Camien: On this podcast, we can make all the decisions.

[1:59] Susan Blackwell: Hey, I feel like we should kick it off by welcoming. We might have some new listeners up in here.

[2:05] Laura Camien: I was thinking about that and I'm very excited to welcome some new listeners. And I was like, what would we want to tell them?

[2:13] Laura Camien: And something that came to mind for me, Suze, is that we like to share all of the ideas that we're simply not going to have time to make in this lifetime.

[2:23] Susan Blackwell: And if anything sparks you, our motto is please take it and make it.

[2:29] Laura Camien: So that's one of the things. And then we also were like, you know what? In our next chapter of our life, having done a whole bunch of creative things, what do we want to make sure that we are doing with our lives?

[2:42] Laura Camien: And we kind of wanted to build in an infrastructure that would require us to keep our eyes and ears open at all times looking for ideas and sparks of inspiration because they're everywhere.

[2:55] Susan Blackwell: If you train your brain to look for them, you have no shortage of them.

[3:00] Laura Camien: It is a fun way to live, to maintain that curiosity and always be scanning and seeking for what is interesting and sparky.

[3:12] Susan Blackwell: It's fun.

[3:13] Laura Camien: It's a fun way to live.

[3:14] Susan Blackwell: It's fun.

[3:15] Laura Camien: And now it's our job to do it.

[3:17] Susan Blackwell: So we're locked in.

[3:18] Laura Camien: We're locked and loaded.

[3:19] Susan Blackwell: It is our job. There's a few things. I just feel like, let's just tease a few things.

[3:25] Laura Camien: We don't have to go into it deep, but there's some exciting things coming up that I would just like to brush.

[3:30] Susan Blackwell: I just like to brush them.

[3:31] Laura Camien: Brush it.

[3:32] Susan Blackwell: Brush it, Suze. It's because we've been building some cool, these old hands have been building some cool, cool shit.

[3:41] Laura Camien: So for years, Laura Kamian, Laura Kamian has been wanting a creative community.

[3:49] Susan Blackwell: We already have the SparkFile community of people who have worked with the SparkFile who have taken our courses is kick ass.

[3:59] Laura Camien: And Laura Kamian was like, can we formalize this? Can we create a space where people can show up and come together?

[4:07] Susan Blackwell: Even if folks who are like, I'm not, I don't need to take a course right now, but I want a place to go.

[4:11] Laura Camien: And so we've, yeah, that's what we kept hearing from people, you know, when they were stepping off of a course. It's like, well, I want to stay in touch. I want to stay connected.

[4:21] Susan Blackwell: And so we have built it and soon, timing TBD, we'll be sharing that so people can get into that.

[4:30] Laura Camien: Sooner than you think. There's creativity kickoff. That's right around the corner for many people, an annual tradition to reset their creativity for the new year that's coming up.

[4:41] Susan Blackwell: And then we've got a fresh blaze course coming in January. There's a lot of great stuff coming up in the SparkFile.

[4:47] Laura Camien: I think we might even have a, we might even have a free workshop somewhere in there too. Y'all don't even know the hits just keep on coming.

[4:56] Susan Blackwell: I'm excited for this. There's nothing I love more than podcasting. This is one of my greatest joys in life.

[5:03] Laura Camien: And our last season was different. It was a little experiment. We did a partnership with Town Hall and we got to talk to some amazing people.

[5:12] Susan Blackwell: But as part of that experiment, we divided and conquered. So each one of us would take an interview, which means we haven't been sitting on these mics and talking to each other for quite some time.

[5:27] Laura Camien: I'm so excited to be back. Having these conversations with you, making this podcast, sharing it with the people.

[5:32] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[5:33] Laura Camien: I love it. Do you remember when we first started and we were like, I wonder if we'll be able to, like if we have an hour long podcast, will we even fill the hour?

[5:41] Susan Blackwell: And y'all, we talked for like three hours. We're like, well, I guess we're going to be fine.

[5:45] Laura Camien: We're keeping it leaner now. Don't be scared. We're keeping it leaner.

[5:50] Susan Blackwell: But we talk every day and we're still able to talk more.

[5:54] Laura Camien: And talk.

[5:55] Susan Blackwell: And talk.

[5:56] Laura Camien: And talk.

[5:57] Susan Blackwell: But Laura Kamian.

[5:58] Laura Camien: Yes, Susie Blackwell.

[6:01] Susan Blackwell: Kicking off season six with a bang of a spark. Are you ready to spark me?

[6:05] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm sparking you?

[6:07] Susan Blackwell: Oh, why, yes, I am.

[6:11] Laura Camien: You know what? I thought it was the other way around. But good thing I am prepared.

[6:15] Susan Blackwell: Woo.

[6:16] Laura Camien: Yes, Susan, I am. That can be a little thrill.

[6:19] Susan Blackwell: I saw it run through you.

[6:22] Laura Camien: Jesus. And we've got video of it. So that's going to be fun to re-watch.

[6:26] Laura Camien: Yes, Susan, I'm seriously excited to talk to you about this spark. I think that since this little spark drifted into my life, I have spoken about it at least 17 times since it grabbed a hold of me.

[6:42] Susan Blackwell: Anybody who's spent any time with me, like if you have hung out with me for 15 minutes.

[6:46] Laura Camien: You just grabbed them by the lapels and you're like, listen to me. I heard this thing. I have to share it with you.

[6:51] Susan Blackwell: Some of these sparks, they get me like that. And I'm just like, I can't not wait. Like you sit down for coffee with somebody or you feel fully armed at a party. You're like, yes, I've got something I'm ready to talk about.

[7:04] Laura Camien: Yes. And now I get to share this with you. And you may have heard pieces of this and if you have, pretend like you haven't.

[7:13] Susan Blackwell: I'll act surprised.

[7:14] Laura Camien: I know you will. Okay. Listen, the other day I had the opportunity to talk to Dr. Dan Siegel.

[7:22] Susan Blackwell: He's a neuroscientist.

[7:23] Laura Camien: Susan, you would love this man. Just dropping big names from the jump. We'd love this man.

[7:28] Susan Blackwell: So smart.

[7:32] Laura Camien: You know I could not write fast enough. I was like, oh my God, oh my God. Every single thing that he said.

[7:38] Laura Camien: So I'm going to give you a top line today, but it was chock full of good stuff. He's so smart.

[7:45] Laura Camien: He is the author of about a million books. Books like Mindsight, The New Science of Personal Transformation, The Mindful Brain, Reflection and Attunement in the Cultivation of Well-Being, The Whole Brain Child.

[7:59] Susan Blackwell: I know you'd like that, Susan. I mean, you're not a child, but just the fact that someone took the whole brain concept for kids.

[8:04] Laura Camien: I love that. You love this guy. He's also written The Pocket Guide to Interpersonal Neurobiology and Aware, The Science and Practice of Presence.

[8:15] Laura Camien: His training is in pediatrics and child, adolescent and adult psychiatry. I seriously think you would like his work, Suze.

[8:24] Susan Blackwell: Nice.

[8:25] Laura Camien: He's known as a mindfulness, mindfulness expert. It's all one word. It's mindfulness.

[8:30] Laura Camien: And he essentially developed the entire field of interpersonal neurobiology.

[8:41] Susan Blackwell: What is interpersonal neurobiology, you say?

[8:44] Laura Camien: It's an interdisciplinary framework that studies how our brain, mind and relationships interact to shape who we are.

[8:54] Susan Blackwell: It can also be called relational neuroscience, but the field integrates insights from various sciences including neuroscience, psychology, sociology to understand how relationships influence brain development and how the brain affects our connections with others.

[9:12] Susan Blackwell: Amazing. Would you say again, like the three pieces, it's the, you just said.

[9:19] Laura Camien: It's the brain, the mind and relationships and how they interact.

[9:24] Susan Blackwell: The brain, the mind and relationships and how they interact.

[9:27] Laura Camien: To shape who we are.

[9:28] Susan Blackwell: Thank you.

[9:29] Laura Camien: Thank you for saying that again.

[9:30] Susan Blackwell: You bet. We were talking about creativity, of course, because what else is there?

[9:37] Laura Camien: What else are you going to talk about?

[9:40] Laura Camien: Specifically, we were digging into the topic of creating the conditions necessary to establish a practice of creativity in our lives.

[9:48] Laura Camien: And by practice, I mean the conditions necessary to make creative breakthroughs more frequent and intentional.

[9:56] Laura Camien: Because we all know that sometimes, you know, it can feel like creative ideas are those lightning bolts of inspiration that come to us randomly.

[10:05] Susan Blackwell: It's easy to think that we don't have access to them when we want them.

[10:09] Laura Camien: We're just sort of like waiting for that lightning bolt to happen, but this is not actually true.

[10:16] Laura Camien: As we know, we can have access to our creativity when we need it and we can have agency over it, but we do have to set the stage.

[10:25] Susan Blackwell: So here we are talking about these conditions necessary to make creativity more frequent and intentional.

[10:32] Laura Camien: The reason we're talking about that topic is because, as you know, Suze, I'm co-writing a book with Matt Goldman, the co-founder of Blue Man Group, about this very topic.

[10:43] Laura Camien: So it'll be for anyone or any team that is required to produce creative ideas on a regular basis. What are the conditions that need to be established?

[10:51] Laura Camien: I'm sure I'm going to be talking about this topic throughout this whole season of the podcast, so just get used to it, friends. It's very top of mind.

[11:03] Laura Camien: But as part of our research, we were talking to Dr. Dan Siegel.

[11:07] Susan Blackwell: This is so exciting, Laura.

[11:10] Laura Camien: Thanks. I freaking love it. I'm so excited about you, the work that you're doing with Matt Goldman and the book and getting to hobnob with Dr. Dan Siegel.

[11:23] Susan Blackwell: But also, I love that we're going to be able to take directly from this conversation that you had.

[11:30] Laura Camien: And apply it to our own lives, share it with our clients and people in the Spark File community, listeners of the pod. I just want to tell you, sorry to interrupt, super excited. Please continue.

[11:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm excited. You're excited. It's thrilling for me and it's just another piece of what we do, which is think obsessively about creativity 24-7. So it's more of that and I'm here for it. If you've never had the pleasure of talking to a neuroscientist about how the brain works, I just want to recommend that. If you ever get a chance to, just freaking snatch that opportunity up. I literally felt my brain popping off with ideas like every two seconds. And it was like becoming keenly aware of my neurons firing and connections being made, which is crazy because Dr. Siegel was talking about meta-awareness, which is, of course, becoming aware of your own awareness. And I was like, it's happening right now.

It's happening in this moment. So here we are, we're talking about creativity and I think I'm going to call him Dan. I could be Dan Siegel throughout this whole episode, but I'm going to say Dan. It's Dan. So Dan says, one of the biggest killers of creative thinking is the fact that we only see what we believe already. It's like confirmation bias. Our brain tends to seek, interpret and remember information that confirms our preexisting beliefs. We become certain that we are right about something and we ignore or dismiss any other evidence that contradicts what we think we already know. So Dan said, you only see what you believe. To see deeply, you must always challenge what you believe, which I'm just like, I know, I know that, but sometimes I think we forget to remember to do that.

We start by questioning like, well, what is this belief that I'm holding in the first place? And is that really true? And where did that come from? And how long have I thought this? Do you know what I mean? Then he said that neuroscientists have a joke that there is no such thing as immaculate perception. I mean, come on, it feels pretty good to be on the inside of some neuroscientist jokes. You are such a nerd.

[14:06] Laura Camien: I'm such a nerd. There's no such thing as immaculate perception. Of course I looked up the phrase because I was like, who came up with that? It was Nietzsche who coined immaculate perception and it describes that feeling you have when you are absolutely convinced that your way of seeing things is right. Like if everyone else just understood the world the way you do, everything would be so much clearer. And Suze, I'm sure you and I have talked about this. I don't know if I've talked about it on the podcast, but my mom had this. Like 24-7 my mom had this. She used to be so bothered by people who didn't agree with her. If you didn't agree with her, she'd just keep pushing the same perspective and say, I just need you to understand me.

And eventually I realized, oh, she means I need you to acknowledge I'm right about this. Agree with me. I need you to agree with me because if you understood me, you would see that my perspective is the right one. And after years of therapy, eventually I was able to say to her lovingly, of course, mom, I do understand what you're saying. I don't entirely agree with you, but that's okay. I understand where you're coming from. Thank you for sharing your perspective. But it kind of drove her crazy because she truly did believe that her perception was the right one on almost everything. The thing is, this relates to the conversation that we've had about writing true stories from our past too, Suze. There is no single true version of any event. Every person involved in a situation is going to see it through their own lens of experiences, their own perception, and none of them is immaculate.

[16:05] Susan Blackwell: Rashomon is a creative example of that sort of filmmaking or storytelling from the perspective of different players. Same event, same central event. If you haven't seen the Julia Roberts and Andrew Garfield film, After the Hunt. First of all, does that do that too?

[16:19] Laura Camien: Oh, Suze. In a different way. It doesn't show you the same event from multiple perspectives, but throughout this movie, I thought it illustrated this point so well. I'm going to try not to spoil the movie for you because I think it's just getting to streamers now, so please watch it. But I'll say this. The story is about a college professor who's accused of inappropriate sexual behavior by a student. And there are so many perspectives at play. There are coworkers, former lovers, intergenerational perspectives, different races, different economic status. And at first, you spend the first part of the movie trying to figure out if he did it and what exactly did he do. And then there was a scene where it just hit me all at once.

I have this really profound moment. It's not said in the movie, but it was like, boom. It just smacked me in the face. This voice in my head just said, oh, there is no truth. There is only each person's individual truth. And that's all we're ever going to know. We're not going to get to the bottom of it. Do you know what I mean? And we all want that so much. And this screenwriter, Nora Garrett, first time screenwriter, wrote this without an agent, sold it. Get it, Nora. How she pulled this off, I was just like, and I've seen it twice. I saw it twice in the movie theater.

[18:00] Susan Blackwell: You're kidding.

[18:01] Laura Camien: I am not kidding you. Full price tickets. Full price tickets both times. Damn. That's a high recommendation. I'll probably watch it again when it comes on streamer because there are certain lines in it too that I was like, yeah, that's good. That's good stuff. Say the name of it again.

[18:20] Susan Blackwell: It's called After the Hunt. This is seriously sidebar now. I might also do another spark about it because you know how I said there's intergenerational, intergender, all of these different perspectives in it. And when you watch it, of course, I fell into a particular white woman of a certain age. And there were some things in there that made me go, ew, ew. I think I've thought that before. And I don't like that I've thought that before. So you might hear of this again in this season. We might dig in a little further to this movie. I like art that makes you challenge the way you're thinking about things. That's the best.

[19:05] Laura Camien: Right? And challenge your beliefs, which is what Dr. Dan Siegel tells us we always have to do. If we want to see deeply, we must always be challenging our own beliefs. So as all of this relates to our creativity, the more convinced we are about our own rightness, the less open we are to new ideas. And that's true in our creative life as well. We narrow the number of possible solutions or ideas that we might come up with every time we cling to the certainty about being right about something. As Dan said, the brain is a predictive machine. It craves certainty. So you have to be aware. There's your meta-awareness. Be aware of your awareness that your brain is going to want to be certain about something.

It wants to predict the outcome based on past experiences and then live in the certainty of its own assessment. Uncertainty is so uncomfortable. Our brains want to get the fuck out of uncertainty as quickly as possible. That's what our brain thinks its job is. But the problem is our creativity lives in the uncertainty. When we're in uncertainty, we actually have the greatest amount of possibility in front of us. Anything could happen. All ideas are on the table and our creativity is lit up. Dan said, and this why I was like, whoa, thank you for that perspective shift, Dan. He said, the synonyms for uncertainty are freedom and possibility. Fucking freedom and possibility. Not two words that people would come up with most of the time when feeling uncertain about things.

[21:10] Susan Blackwell: And will you say it one more time? The synonyms for uncertainty.

[21:19] Laura Camien: Uncertainty are freedom and possibility.

[21:25] Susan Blackwell: It's challenging for me to.

[21:27] Laura Camien: I know it is.

[21:28] Susan Blackwell: Get my mind around it.

[21:29] Laura Camien: I know it is. I know it is, Susan. I thought of you immediately because freedom is such a word, you know, it's so resonant for you. And I think what was so interesting to me was to challenge this belief that I've had for a long time. I've only ever thought of uncertainty as a bad thing.

[21:47] Susan Blackwell: Uncomfortable, anxiety provoking.

[21:49] Laura Camien: That's right. That's exactly right. And now Dan has a whole explanation for all of this that I'm not even going to try to get into, but essentially it has to do with what he calls the plane of possibility. And where are we when we're living with the most number of options and possible outcomes? And that's in uncertainty. And with every single thing that becomes certain, you know, like it's not going to be any day of the week. It's going to be on Tuesday. Oh, okay. Well, that's going to narrow what might happen. It's not going to be during the day. It's going to be in the evening. Oh, okay. That's going to narrow what it's not going to be in person. It's going to be on Zoom. That's going to narrow and narrow and narrow.

And as you go, the number of outcomes is smaller. The number, the amount of possibility is smaller. Now we have a whole other episode or two or five or 10 episodes that talk about creative limitations because it will help you get to an answer, right? Sometimes we actually need.

[32:30] Laura Camien: You betcha here to help my go heading that's it this episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape and the Mohican people and as always we hope this put another bunch of sparks into your file.

[32:42] Susan Blackwell: Hey listen, if there's a spark that you would like us to explore or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to accomplish your creative goals, you can email getcreative@thesparkfile.com or you can reach us through our website thesparkfile.com. You know, we will even happily take your feedback, but the price of admission first you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently. What's it gonna be?

[33:11] Laura Camien: You can follow us on social at The Spark File and be sure to subscribe, rate, five-star review this podcast. It really does help other listeners to find us. Also, if you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people you love and if you didn't like it always be challenging nice.

[33:32] Susan Blackwell: That was beautiful. That was a work of art right there friends. If something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame. You know, you got to take it and make it.

[33:55] Laura Camien: Great spark. We're back, baby. We're not open to something that inspires me I dump it in my spark. Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be I'll pump it in my spark. I jump into my spark. Let's open up the spark.