This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:30] Laura Camien: Welcome to The Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:45] Laura Camien: And I am Laura Camien. And we are creativity coaches who help people clarify and accomplish their creative goals.

[0:51] Laura Camien: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you're joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives. But you may also be asking yourself, ladies, what exactly is a Spark File?

[1:02] Susan Blackwell: Well, a Spark File is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations. Every episode, we're going to reach into our personal Spark Files, and we're going to exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're going to talk to some folks who spark us too.

[1:18] Laura Camien: And your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take some of those sparks of inspiration and make something of your own. So without further ado, let's open up The Spark File.

[1:31] Laura Camien: Ooh, Susie B. It's Spark Day.

[1:35] Susan Blackwell: It's Spark Day.

[1:36] Laura Camien: And I am happy.

[1:37] Susan Blackwell: I'm very happy about that.

[1:40] Laura Camien: It is. It's been a week.

[1:43] Susan Blackwell: It's been a week, not just, you know, here at The Spark File, but in the world at large. And this week won't be the week that this podcast, there's no point in going into it because all these things that are true in this moment won't be true when this podcast airs, but just suffice to say, hey, you know what I've heard?

[2:02] Laura Camien: I don't know if Owen did this like as a blanket, but you know what was amazing yesterday? I was having like a crazy, weird, hard day, and I'll talk about that in just a minute. But Owen, our sweet client Owen, out of the blue sends a recording of him singing a song and with the note, today feels like a day and maybe you just need this.

[2:32] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, how did you know? How did you know?

[2:36] Laura Camien: He's the great Owen Panettiere.

[2:39] Susan Blackwell: He really is.

[2:40] Laura Camien: Yeah. I was just like, well, wow, thanks. I needed that. And I'm about to tell you why I needed that, Suze.

[2:48] Susan Blackwell: Tell.

[2:49] Laura Camien: You ready?

[2:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[2:51] Laura Camien: It's the topic of my spark. The thing is, everybody that's in this industry, meaning like the great big entertainment industry, knows that projects end, shows close, films move from a team on pre-production to a team on production and then post-production. The people change, the day to day changes, and then it ends. Art exhibits go up and come down. It's all part of the life cycle of creativity. We know that.

[3:26] Laura Camien: It is not unique for a show to close, but it seems like it is never pain free, no matter how it happens, no matter when it happens. And we found out just before Thanksgiving of last year, 2024, that Blue Man Group, the Chicago show, and the Blue Man Group at the Astor Place Theater in New York City would be closing soon. So we've been living with that. But as the date gets closer, it becomes more and more real.

[4:05] Laura Camien: And at this point, Chicago has already closed, and New York is closing on February 2nd. Suze, it really feels like the end of an era. And I know you feel that too, since we both go way back to the beginnings of it. But it's still open, like Blue Man is still open in Las Vegas and in Berlin. But the home of Blue Man Group is New York City.

[4:40] Susan Blackwell: It's the flagship.

[4:41] Laura Camien: I moved here in 1995. It has been here at the Astor Place Theater literally every single day I've lived in New York. And it's going to feel odd to be in a city that does not have Blue Man Group in it. And even though I said my personal goodbyes to working at Blue Man in 2017, but because Wes is still in the show, and there are so many people that I cared about that were still working there, a part of my heart has remained with it for sure.

[5:19] Laura Camien: But now it really is time to say goodbye. And it's hard. It's hard to watch it happen, honestly.

[5:31] Susan Blackwell: It's hard.

[5:33] Laura Camien: But I am very aware that whether you're on Broadway, and it happens quick, like just this season, Tammy Faye swept away, both of them opened and then almost immediately announced their closing. And that really hurts. It hurts when it happens that way. But we also know there can be post-show depression when your show closes at exactly the time you knew that it would, meaning it's a limited run. You know when it's ending.

[6:04] Laura Camien: Or your college production that was only scheduled for six performances, and still there is sadness and there is loss. But when you enter into an open-ended run, you have an awareness that at some point that it will close. But you kind of put it out of your mind. If tickets are selling, you put it out of your mind and you sort of hope for the best. And when it continues to run year after year after year, it can begin to feel like it will always be there.

[6:34] Susan Blackwell: And so even when you've been running for 33 years, like Blue Man Group at the Astor Place Theater, it hurts. Of course, it is easy in these moments to have questions. What could have been done differently? But there's no point in going there. Shows close, and it hurts.

[7:01] Laura Camien: I was listening to the We Can Do Hard Things podcast with Mel Robbins as the guest. And she was talking about her book, Let Them, which I just got. And I'm very excited to read it. Very excited. And she was talking about how so often in life, great things are happening. Like this moment that she's in right now. She's been accelerating towards this, working really hard on all of this, and it all seems to be culminating right now.

[7:31] Laura Camien: And you know that saying that your life can change overnight, but it takes 15 years to get to that night. She's having that moment in her career with this book, and she's worked hard for it. And now, of course, all this great stuff is happening, but hard things are happening too. And you know, when you think of those amazing moments in your life that from the outside look like it's idyllic, look at it, it's incredible. But what you may not be aware of as an outsider is that at the same time amazing things are happening, you might be caring for a sick parent, or going through a divorce, or breaking up with a friend.

[8:15] Laura Camien: What she said is that that's true for her right now too, and that she was really choosing to stay present to it all, and really show up for it all. And that resonated for me in a really, really big way. Because yesterday, I was listening to this in the morning, and later in the day I was scheduled to go see the Blue Man show, because they were doing something really special.

[8:49] Laura Camien: The original three Blue Men, Chris Wink, Matt Goldman, and Phil Stanton, got bald and blue for the first time since 2011. And they did part of the show. They opened the show, they did a middle section of the show, and then they ended the show. I know you know this, Susan, but for everyone else, the show that's playing here at the Astor Place now is not the show that opened in 1991. It has been changed and updated. Lots of changes.

[9:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[9:23] Laura Camien: And so there was content that they didn't write and weren't familiar with. So they went in and did the sections of the show that have been there since the beginning. And Susan, first of all, let me just talk about the show for a second, and I'll get back to my anxiety of it all. But they were incredible. It was incredible. And you just feel a certain aliveness when they were on stage. It was just crackling with that. I was so present to the history of it all right then, the way they created the show, how they did it before anyone believed it could be something.

[10:09] Laura Camien: Like the incredible content they created. The original show was so smart and so innovative, so ahead of its time. It made you think, it made you laugh. On the one hand, you're watching and thinking, this is a crazy mess. Like what the hell is this? And then on the other, you're feeling this deep connection and thinking something incredible and meaningful just transpired. Because it didn't have words. It's not like a story that's going to tell you exactly what you're supposed to feel. But those guys yesterday were incredible.

[10:50] Susan Blackwell: And all the times I'd watch them perform flashed before my eyes.

[10:55] Laura Camien: Yeah. Seeing the three of them, and we have not talked about this yet, hearing this for the first time. I knew that this was happening, but we haven't discussed it since you attended that very special show.

[11:09] Susan Blackwell: It would be in my imagination, because I've seen those three do the show, oh my, so many times.

[11:18] Laura Camien: Yes.

[11:20] Susan Blackwell: As you have. You've seen the show.

[11:22] Laura Camien: Thousands.

[11:23] Susan Blackwell: Thousands.

[11:24] Laura Camien: I have times 100.

[11:25] Susan Blackwell: But it would be like seeing Fleetwood Mac reunite.

[11:32] Laura Camien: Yes.

[11:33] Susan Blackwell: It's like that.

[11:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:35] Susan Blackwell: Because there's so much history there and so many decades of life under the bridge. And you see them slip into those roles.

[11:43] Laura Camien: And I imagine, I could be wrong, but it's kind of like seeing people slip on a glove. You know what I mean?

[11:57] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[11:58] Laura Camien: That it's just like they created it.

[11:59] Susan Blackwell: They created it.

[12:00] Laura Camien: It's in their bones.

[12:01] Susan Blackwell: They embody it. It is in them, 100%.

[12:05] Laura Camien: Yeah. That was incredible to see, truly.

[12:09] Susan Blackwell: And it was surreal, you know?

[12:12] Laura Camien: So weird. Seeing the history flash before my eyes, I'm like, memories of, you know, there was a period of time where after it opened in New York, it opened in Boston, then Chicago, then Vegas. And we would always open the show, like the first month of performances, starting with all the press previews, et cetera, it would be the three of them. And then it would be sort of baton pass to the guys who would be there locally. Everyone would stay. And then all of us who were working at Blue Man Productions would like ease on out of the city and be like, and here, you know, and there's your show.

[13:01] Susan Blackwell: And so I was just like thinking of watching them in Chicago, watching them in Boston, watching them in Vegas. But yeah, like you said, I've seen them perform hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times.

[13:10] Laura Camien: Yeah. The thing was, getting back to all the big feelings of it all, after the show, there was a party, like a little get together. And this is odd, right? Because it's a little bit of, is this a reunion? Is this a celebration? Is this a mourning? It's all so, it's all mixed up in a big pot. In all of it, I had anxiety going into it. And, you know, I mean, I had.

[13:42] Laura Camien: Social anxiety and the best of situations. I have to psych myself up for a party on a good day. Mm-hmm. So this was a challenge. So as I listened to this podcast with Mel Robbins, I thought, Whoo. Okay, I'm gonna make a choice. I am going to stay present to all of it—the good feelings, the not-so-good feelings, and just stay open to it. Mm-hmm. I'm so glad I did, Suze. Oh, I know we haven't talked about this and I don't want this podcast to be like a journal entry, but I just I'm so glad I did it. There were incredible friends from the past that I'm so happy to reconnect with. You know, we grew up together. Yeah, truly, like the lessons that we learned, we learned what not to do, what to do.

Yeah, I learned from this experience what kind of person I want to be in this world and how I want to show up for the people I care about. I met mentors who I want to emulate. It was all of it, Susan. I mean, I worked at Blue Man Productions for 25 years, so this goodbye kicks up a lot of dust and it offers the opportunity to really see how far I've come, all the ways in which I've grown, and to celebrate the world that I've built around me now with The Spark File with Mrs. Blackwell. And by the way, so many Blue Man friends have come through The Spark File as clients and even some working with us more officially. The fact is, like, because I feel like—and you tell me if you feel like this is true or not—but because you were impacted by the Blue Man culture, because you were married to a Blue Man so long ago, and I was on the inside of that culture for 25 years, there's no way The Spark File wasn't going to be impacted by the things we learned at Blue Man Group.

[15:35] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely. Things we learned directly from the founders of Blue Man Group. So I wanted to just like—this, I'm so sparked by all of it and could talk for hours, and we probably will, but for today's podcast, I do want to share some of those learnings and specifically the ways in which it's impacted The Spark File. Awesome, so I'm working on a project now that we'll talk about later, but it'll lay out very specific ways The Spark File and other organizations have been impacted by the creativity and the innovation of Blue Man. But for now, I'd like to just mention a few that come to mind, like when I do the reflecting that, you know, all of this has caused me to do. Yeah, and can I just say I recently saw a thing from the good people at the TED conference and they were talking about how a really great TED talk is a TED talk where somebody has had a lived experience and they come back and they're like, I'm gonna cut out the middleman and I'm going to give you the distillation of my learning and wisdom from that lived experience, and I feel like that's what we're about to get.

[17:17] Laura Camien: Well, it's funny you say that because I think I'm working on this project that will be a really clear distillation of that. Uh-huh. And today will be an appetizer. An appetizer. Yes, that's what it is. I love them. Yeah. Okay, and so I also should say this: I left the company in 2017, so I can't say which of these things held fast. I can't speak to the current state of things, so I'm just gonna speak mostly frankly about the early years when Chris, Matt, and Phil were the visionaries and the leaders of the organization and when, frankly, I was young and impressionable and soaking up every bit of learning that I could get. So first of all, big takeaway is that integrity filters throughout an organization and it has to start with the leadership.

In the early years, like Chris, Matt, and Phil, you and I would talk about this a lot even back then, Suze, and now with The Spark File, but they would never disparage each other's opinions or decisions or even disagree with each other's opinions or decisions, especially if that person was not there to explain their point of view. Hmm. And what it alleviated, I would say, is that sort of like go to the other parent triangulation?

[19:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[19:20] Laura Camien: There wasn't a feeling like, well, if Matt said no, I can go to Chris and get his approval and so on. You know, they worked very hard to have a unified voice, and that impacted me in a really big way. And similarly, I know and have known from the beginning there's not a single conversation where you, Susan, are gonna talk about me or I'm gonna talk about you and contradict the other to a client, to a member of the community. No way. Like, we're gonna have each other's backs and we're gonna have integrity in our speech, and I love that. I love that. And I think about like, oh my gosh, we could draw a direct line from conversations that we had long ago about that dynamic to today, like getting to live that dynamic together. Mm-hmm. I'm grateful for it.

[20:29] Laura Camien: Yeah, and then at Blue Man Group, early on we would talk about how there was a reason why the show wasn't just called Blue Man. It's not just about the character; it's also about the group. We would talk about the gestalt, which is the idea that the group is bigger than the sum of its parts. It's better and smarter and funnier and all of the things than the sum of its parts. Together we came up with better ideas than any one single person could come up with. Together we were smarter than any one single person was. Every person was encouraged to have a voice. We would call this multiple perspectives, like the value of multiple perspectives, but really it was so much about the gestalt. But there was a belief and a culture where all voices mattered; everybody got to have a voice and all feelings mattered, too.

It didn't mean that by expressing your feelings you would always get your way, but it meant that there was space for you to express your feelings. Yes, and it was welcomed and specifically encouraged to express your feelings to the people or any person who actually had the ability to make change rather than just spewing it out. Yeah, whoever it lands on is where it lands. Take your thoughts and feelings directly to people who can make a difference.

[22:18] Laura Camien: I was thinking about the all feelings matter, and Susan, I don't know if you remember, you just mentioned this the other day and how much it meant to you that you—so actually this was—there was an internal sort of like a newsletter or magazine, The Conduit. The Conduit, not circulated via email, circulated in hard copy. It was a zine. It was a zine. Stapled. Yeah, and there was an interview with Chris, Matt, and Phil, and I cut out a paragraph of this interview and for years had it thumbtacked to my bulletin board, and I actually at some point I misplaced it. It might be in one of my early find-it paper spark files. I might still have it, but it talked about how if they had a—say they had a special event, a special appearance coming up and they had 15 hours of work that they needed to do to prepare for that special event, they had actually on the clock 10 hours available to do the work, but there was conflict that was going to take an hour or two to resolve.

They would prioritize processing the conflict before moving back into rehearsal and preparation mode to get ready for the special appearance. And I read that and it—I cannot tell you, it made such an impression on my brain. Yeah, for a couple of reasons. Number one, I was so fascinated by that prioritization, and I also was fascinated by the prioritization just time-wise. I was fascinated logistically by it, but the prioritization of processing feelings and conflict so that the work was being made on a foundation that was clean.

[23:36] Susan Blackwell: Yes, and we called that clean as you go.

[23:41] Laura Camien: Clean as you go, exactly. Still do. We still call it that.

[23:46] Susan Blackwell: No, that's what I'm saying. Yeah.

[23:46] Laura Camien: Yeah, you call it that, and it's shorthand for cleanup on aisle five.

[23:55] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[23:55] Laura Camien: You go. Yeah. All have felt that, like how it feels in your body to have to stuff something down and be like, okay, great, but we don't have time for that right now. We have to focus on this, and no one feels good. You could argue that the work that gets done in those circumstances isn't the best that it could be, and so, yeah, take the time to clean up and then move forward.

[24:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yeah, I think we can draw a direct line there as well.

[24:22] Laura Camien: Yeah, you're making me remember something that I didn't have noted, but in The Conduit there was an article that I have always thought of written by Chris Wink, and it was about the vortex machines on stage. If you've ever seen Blue Man Group, there are these two big—they're custom-made big columns of water lit by lighting so they look like they're different colors, but you turn on the vortex machine and it starts—a motor starts to swirl the water around, and eventually it forms a column and it looks like a tornado inside of—inside liquid tornado. Liquid tornadoes. And he wrote a whole article paralleling the vortex machine to an organization's growth and how at first when that motor turns on, there's like a lot of particles.

They're kind of going in different directions; they're like trying to find their way. And if you were to not secure that column to the ground, which it is—like it is bolted to the floor—the whole thing would topple over in the moment right before it forms a perfect column and settles down. And he paralleled that to when you're building an organization, especially putting up a show. Yes. Yeah, all of it, right? Yeah, it looks like it is about to fucking fall apart. This is never going to work; the whole thing is going to shatter. And yet, if you wait a moment longer, it's about to get in alignment and all come together. And I was so inspired by that article. I'm gonna look for it.

[26:20] Susan Blackwell: So is the next time I'm up in my boxes of goodies, I'm like, I'm gonna find those conduits because I know I have it, and I'll find that other quote for you, too.

[26:29] Laura Camien: Awesome. Awesome. So the another thing that I know we also—like we didn't consciously take these things from Blue Man Group; it is just a part of like you can't be somewhere without absorbing learnings from them. And at Blue Man Group, we were committed to being a learning organization. We didn't need to know everything; we just needed to know that we were capable of learning and growing together. My God, is The Spark File a learning organization, Susan Blackwell! So I had a front-row seat at every turn at Blue Man. The guys, they had never produced a show or run a creative organization before, but they learned how to do it.

[27:23] Laura Camien: Always been done. Mm-hmm. There's a shared vision for the future. Mm-hmm, and they champion knowledge sharing and team learning. So when one person on the team gains knowledge, we all gain knowledge.

[29:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah, I'd say we qualify. I would say we qualify. I mean, we have been learning this entire time. We're just like, well, we'll figure that out. And when I learn this, I'll tell you about it. And when you learn that, you'll tell me about it, and we're swapping learning, you know, every time we record a podcast.

[29:29] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're doing it now. We're doing it right now. We're soaking in it, soaking in it. So those are just a few ways that we've been influenced by Blue Man Group. There are many, many more, but one final one I want to mention is that Matt Goldman would talk frequently about how we wanted Blue Man Group to be a place where every single person was treated just a little bit better than they were in the outside world.

[29:54] Susan Blackwell: Not a grand proclamation in any way.

[30:01] Laura Camien: That's wonderful, but just this understanding that when you got to work, you were going to be treated a little bit better than you were treated elsewhere. And Suze, I feel like in The Spark File, we have co-created along with our incredible community a place where you can expect that when you log on to that Zoom room, you're gonna be treated with kindness and warmth and respect, and it's a place where it is safe to be your whole self.

[30:30] Susan Blackwell: That's true. It's so funny when you said it. I was like, well, isn't that wonderful? What a great sentiment. And I was like, oh yeah, we do do that. We do do that. It's in our guidelines. I'm just really proud of that, and I'm grateful. I'm grateful for all the lessons learned at Blue Man—things I learned in a fun way and things I learned the hard way. All of those lessons have funneled into the creative organization that we are running now, Suze.

[30:58] Laura Camien: It's true. It's true. So every one of us knows what it feels like to have a creative project come to an end, and I don't think there's ever a way for it not to be filled with complex feelings. I'm hanging with those feelings and trying to be present for the loved ones in my life who are having complex feelings as well.

[31:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[31:22] Laura Camien: But again, we talked about this in The Spark File. We know that it's all part of the creative cycle. There's creation, then maintenance, then destruction.

[31:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[31:35] Laura Camien: After destruction, we get to rise like a phoenix from the ashes with fresh new creative ideas. You know, I had the pleasure of dining with my god, the best Tammy Evans Spark File alum the other night.

[31:45] Susan Blackwell: I love Tammy.

[31:46] Laura Camien: Tammy brought up something that she's been thinking about: what happens after destruction? She's thinking like there may be another stop on the cycle. Sometimes we start the next project before the current one ends, and that's awesome. That's awesome when we do. But sometimes we need some time in the liminal space.

[32:17] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[32:17] Laura Camien: We need to be in the in-between for a bit to restore, reflect, replenish our creative spirit, and then we're ready to create again. Either way, there's more creativity to come, and I say this to all of my Blue Man loved ones: if you are ready to jump into the next creative thing, or if you need to hang in some liminal space for a while so you can rest and repair, either way, you're still in the game. You're still living the creative cycle, and there's no shame.

[32:53] Susan Blackwell: Something that we talked about in The Spark File is Priya Parker's book, The Art of Gathering, and how she talks about endings as a powerful opportunity to make meaning by reflecting on what happened and what they learned. Thanks to this podcast, I got a chance to do that today. Thank you.

[33:12] Laura Camien: It's also a time to connect with others, sharing how they'll apply what they learned, prepare for re-entry, and have a ceremony.

[33:22] Susan Blackwell: It's so clear to me that the intentional use of ritual can really help people heal from the pain.

[33:29] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah, of ending. You know, my dear sweet friend and our Spark File client Bryce Kraussman recently illustrated this to me like in the most perfect way. Bryce has owned and operated a restaurant in Las Vegas for many years. It's called DW Bistro. It's a place where community gathers for drag brunches and gospel brunches. They fed people all through the pandemic. It is a place with such heart and soul, and Bryce made the decision to close it in 2025.

[34:09] Susan Blackwell: What he did to me is the perfect example of how it's done thoughtfully and intentionally.

[34:16] Laura Camien: Intentionally. He decided to close DW Bistro with the same ceremony, ritual, and celebration that you would celebrate for an opening.

[34:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[34:30] Laura Camien: He announced it months in advance. He has planned celebratory events along the way, communicated about them, made space for connection to happen, and for everyone to prepare for re-entry. And he's planning for the next creative adventure, which he's going to announce and communicate before the closing. It is a lesson on how it's done with clear communication, embracing the pain of the loss, and celebrating the connections that exist because of the restaurant.

[35:04] ⚠ About 3 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[38:00] Susan Blackwell: Experience and learning and wisdom that you carry inside you that you carry into the spark file. Even though that theater will eventually house some other creativity, shows, some other fresh creativity, you will still have all of that lived experience and wisdom that you can do whatever you want. I'm so grateful. I am truly grateful. This kid from Kansas showed up in New York and made one phone call, got a job at Blue Man Group as it was ascending, you know, from its off-Broadway show. And you know, subsequently the people that I met, the mentors that I got to learn from, 21 countries have flown around the world so many times. Yeah, I didn't even have a passport growing up in Kansas. You know, no one I knew had a passport, of course. And I'm so very, very grateful for all the friendships and relationships and learnings that I get to take with me from it all.

[39:17] Laura Camien: I love that.

[39:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[39:20] Laura Camien: Amazing. All right, I guess that's it.

[39:23] Susan Blackwell: It is. This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape and the Mohican people, and as always, we hope it put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to accomplish your creative goals, you can email getcreative@thesparkfile.com or reach us through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[39:52] Susan Blackwell: You can follow us on social at The Spark File and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast. It really does help other listeners to find us. Also, if you liked this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love, and if you didn't like it, go close your show.

[40:10] Laura Camien: Oh!

[40:14] Susan Blackwell: If something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame. You know, you got to take it and make it.

[40:29] Laura Camien: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be, pumping in my spark. I jump into my spark. Let's open up the spark.