This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Bobby Steggert: I'm Bobby Steggert, and this is The Quiet Part Out Loud.

[0:15] Bobby Steggert: One of the main tensions of being alive is the relationship we have between meaning and meaninglessness. Is our destiny preordained? And are we here for any sort of larger purpose? Are we just an evolutionary fluke in a mass of cells we call a body? Am I a speck of dust, or is the world made for me? Meaning-making is actually the very reason humans have been so successful. Mass cooperation on a scale larger than for a small community requires a sense of shared identity that can only be transmitted through ideas and symbols. And it is religion that has been the most successful form of crowd control during our time here on Earth. A spiritual belief system offers invaluable grounding to many of us. At its core, faith attempts to answer otherwise unanswerable questions about who we are and where we come from. Of course, religions also give us community, a moral code, and at least a hope that maybe something awaits us on the other side.

[1:15] Bobby Steggert: Being raised Catholic pretty much did me in in terms of any sustained spiritual beliefs, and if I'm honest, I take a staunchly agnostic stance when it comes to existential questions of my own. But perhaps this week's episode could change that. Carla Duren is my guest. She is one of my favorite artists I've ever had the pleasure of working with. She was my girlfriend Snooki in the Broadway revival of 110 in the Shade with Audra McDonald back in 2007. And she and I had this effortless, instantaneous, joyful bond on and off stage. It was one of the happiest experiences of my whole career, and I have Carla to thank for much of it.

[1:55] Bobby Steggert: At that point, I would never have dreamed of doing anything but be an actor. But Carla was different. She had already been a harlot for Bette Midler, she was a recording artist, and she came to Broadway without the single-minded ambition that I came at it with. I always sensed that she had a special perspective, a way of understanding life that felt somehow freer and more embracing of the unknown and the uncertain than most people are able to tolerate. She was exploring something that most young people, including myself at the time, are too myopic to look at. I just didn't know quite what it was.

[2:30] Bobby Steggert: And then on the day of our first preview, Carla took me to my first meditation class. It was a profound experience, and almost 20 years later, one I remember vividly. That day I was a little chicken with its head cut off, crawling out of my skin with excitement and anticipation about performing a lead in my first Broadway musical. And it was the stillness and the calm that my body was able to invite through that class that made that first performance as magical as it was for me. I felt entirely alive and present and receptive to the whole event, and it gets to be one of those perfect memories that I'm fortunate to hold.

[3:07] Bobby Steggert: It turns out Carla herself was in the midst of a spiritual journey, one that started as a little girl raised both Catholic and Baptist by interfaith parents, and that took her on a lifelong search for the deeper meaning of existence. Not one prescribed to her by the Bible or a pastor, but through a personal relationship to what she calls Source, the undefinable consciousness that she's come to know and wonder at through her now 20-year meditation practice. Carla is an artist who now coaches other artists in reconnecting to their true essence and to their larger purpose. The way she describes her spirituality is unlike anything I've ever heard described, and yet it sounds so intuitive to me. She has me wondering if there may just be a little bit more room in my life for a spiritual relationship that gets to be mine, and that serves as a reminder of the great connectedness of all things.

What we discover in this conversation is that we're actually doing pretty similar work, just from different lenses, and it felt so good and so right to reunite after almost 20 years to discover that everything and nothing had changed.

[4:18] Bobby Steggert: Okay, so do you believe that you can summon people?

[4:29] Carla Duren: Oh, that's interesting. Yes.

[4:32] Bobby Steggert: Really?

[4:33] Carla Duren: Yeah.

[4:34] Bobby Steggert: What's your experience of doing that? Because I feel I did summon you the other week.

[4:37] Carla Duren: Yeah. Most recently, I was just at home with my family at my parents' house, and I came downstairs and I said to my mom, I said, did you call me? She was like, no, but you probably heard me thinking about you. And the fact that she was so allowed that, I think it has less to do with her and more to do with me. I think she knows that's how I operate in this world.

[4:59] Bobby Steggert: She knew you intuited something. Wow.

[5:01] Carla Duren: Yeah.

[5:02] Bobby Steggert: Okay, I have a feeling I know where we're going with this. We haven't seen each other really since One Time in the Shade. So that's almost two decades, right?

[5:10] Carla Duren: When you put it that way, that's wow.

[5:12] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, it's fucking crazy. But I was thinking about you because I had known that you got into healing work somehow, either for yourself or as a professional or both. And I was thinking about how you were the first person to ever take me to a meditation class.

[5:27] Carla Duren: I love that.

[5:28] Bobby Steggert: And it was the day of our first preview of One Time in the Shade.

[5:33] Carla Duren: I love that that was the day. I didn't remember that.

[5:34] Bobby Steggert: I was like a spinning top because we were so excited and nervous. And the stakes were so high. And your instinct was like, let's go and ground this before we do.

[5:47] Carla Duren: Yes, that's always my instinct.

[5:49] Bobby Steggert: And I'll never forget it. I'll never forget what that did for me and for you and me in the show.

[5:54] Carla Duren: But it was definitely part of my pre-show ritual.

[5:56] Bobby Steggert: All the time?

[5:57] Carla Duren: I went a lot. Definitely on two show days, I feel, because I was already there.

[6:03] Bobby Steggert: It was like a block away.

[6:04] Carla Duren: Yeah. So probably not every day because, you know, when you're coming from home. But I was going, like when we were in tech, I was probably going every lunch.

[6:14] Bobby Steggert: So that was already part of your practice as a younger person?

[6:18] Carla Duren: No, I think we met around the time that started becoming something I was discovering.

[6:22] Bobby Steggert: I see.

[6:23] Carla Duren: Yeah. I would think that was a regular thing before that. I was doing stuff on my own. And I feel like at that time, Oprah and Deepak had these like meditation challenges.

[6:32] Bobby Steggert: Yes.

[6:33] Carla Duren: So I think that made me aware that, OK, oh, and there's a Deepak Chopra Center over here. So I started putting two and two together. And I don't remember exactly how I discovered that they had it there.

[6:43] Bobby Steggert: I was so naive at that time, by the way, just so you know, like when you were talking about how high the stakes were, I don't think I knew how high the stakes were. Like I fell into that production.

[6:51] Carla Duren: I know you did.

[6:52] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[6:53] Carla Duren: I mean, you were perfect.

[6:54] Bobby Steggert: Thank you.

[6:55] Carla Duren: That's why you fell into it.

[6:56] Bobby Steggert: It was divine.

[6:57] Carla Duren: We could talk about that for three hours.

[6:58] Bobby Steggert: We could.

[6:59] Carla Duren: But the reason I feel like I summoned you is because I was thinking about you very specifically in terms of healing. And my goal now is to help people heal through psychotherapy, which heals me. It's a very reciprocal process. And then a day later, you followed me into a prêt-à-manger and you just tapped me on the shoulder. And there you were looking exactly like you've always loved, which is ageless.

[7:21] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, your greeting was the best. It made me so happy.

[7:25] Carla Duren: But I was like, of course, you walked into a prêt-à-manger and we had a reunion.

[7:29] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[7:30] Carla Duren: So I just felt like, all right, so you need to come in and talk about this stuff with me. And you said, of course.

[7:36] Bobby Steggert: Of course. Yeah. Because that's how I live my life. Yeah.

[7:39] Bobby Steggert: What is the central philosophy of the of course?

[7:42] Carla Duren: Serendipity to me is not an accident. It is a sign of alignment. And so when that happened, because I just happened to be down the block doing something else, I was on break. I had no reason to be at prêt-à-manger right then and there. But I walked out the building and as I walked up, I saw you coming out of this building and I recognize you from behind.

[8:03] Bobby Steggert: Do you know what I mean?

[8:04] Carla Duren: My walk or what?

[8:05] Bobby Steggert: Yes. Just everything. I was like, that's Bob Stegger. And so I mildly stopped you into the prêt-à-manger. And then when I looked and affirmed that I was indeed correct. And then when you said, I want to have you on the podcast and I had loved what you were doing at the podcast.

[8:22] Carla Duren: I didn't actually note of it.

[8:23] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. Yeah. When you started it, I was like, this is so cool. And I thought it was just interesting how we hadn't really bonded on that part.

[8:33] Carla Duren: No. As younger people?

[8:34] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. Just like how we were interested in like the healing aspect.

[8:37] Carla Duren: I didn't know I was.

[8:38] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. I already had been interested in it, which is probably why I took you to the Chopra Center to meditate.

[8:43] Carla Duren: Maybe that's, it sounds like that's where we want to go. From that inception, what has been your journey towards finding the spiritual path?

[8:50] Carla Duren: Yeah. I've always been spiritual, but it's always been a very personal journey.

[8:58] Bobby Steggert: Was it ever packaged as religion as a kid?

[9:02] Carla Duren: Yes. And I was raised Catholic. However, my father is Baptist. Now, of course, those are both under Christianity, but that already started something with me because I saw that even though I grew up in a household with both parents, they went to different churches. Now they go to the same church, but growing up, they went to different churches. We would go to mass on Saturday, Catholic mass, and we'd go to Baptist church on Sunday. And I would go to like the catechism classes on Tuesday.

[9:29] Bobby Steggert: Yep. CCD.

[9:30] Carla Duren: CCD. I don't know if that's universal. Everybody calls it CD. Some people call it CL, like Christian living, I think it's called or something. And then some people call it CCD. We call it CCD. So yeah, went to CCD and already I was trying to reconcile the two. I was like, someone's up here.

[9:47] Bobby Steggert: Interesting. Did you buy into one or the other for any reason as a young person?

[9:51] Carla Duren: I bought into both, but that's been my whole life. I've been very like, too, I'll take that. I'll take that. I'll leave that be. I'll take that.

[9:59] Bobby Steggert: Was that encouraged by your parents were individualists in a certain way?

[10:02] Carla Duren: No, it was all me. No, and I think that is the part of me that's like the struggly part of it. Oh, I have my own beliefs that are different from everybody else around me. And so I've just always been that seeker.

[10:15] Bobby Steggert: The seeking part. That's what it is.

[10:17] Carla Duren: Is that what it is? Okay.

[10:18] Bobby Steggert: I think so. This is a sidebar, but not at all. Were you ever a kid who worked really hard to fit in?

[10:23] Carla Duren: Did I work hard to fit in? I think it registered on my radar when and where I didn't fit in. But I think that was just such a given. I was always the one black girl.

[10:34] Bobby Steggert: You grew up in predominantly white society?

[10:36] Carla Duren: Yeah.

[10:36] Bobby Steggert: Okay.

[10:36] Carla Duren: Yeah. So I think it was given that's one way I didn't fit in. And then I found a lot of other ways I didn't fit in. So I think that was always a given. And I don't know if I ran away from it that much. I learned to like code switch, and whatever versions of that that might mean, especially in church. When I was on the Baptist church, I would do the weirdest things, Bobby, we'd have to read the Bible and stuff. And I would notice I was further advanced in my reading. So I'd play down my reading.

[11:09] Bobby Steggert: Oh, my God. That's a way to fit in.

[11:11] Carla Duren: I would act like I wouldn't. Yeah. So I guess in that sense, I was working hard, but it didn't feel like hard work. It felt like this is just what you got to do.

[11:21] Bobby Steggert: You knew yourself and found ways to survive, but internally, it was cohesive for you?

[11:26] Carla Duren: Yeah.

[11:27] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. Yeah.

[11:30] Carla Duren: So if you were exploring religion, you're picking and choosing what of those spiritual practices or orientations did you understand or relate to even as a young person?

[11:39] Bobby Steggert: Okay. Let me see. Say that differently. Let me see if I'm getting that question right.

[11:48] Carla Duren: When you were exploring religion through Catholicism and the Baptist, what did resonate with you?

[11:53] Bobby Steggert: Okay. I think the reason why that question didn't land is because I don't know if I ever explored religion. To me, it was exploring like God.

[12:01] Carla Duren: You could separate it.

[12:02] Carla Duren: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Because already it was separate in my life. There were two different versions every week, every day. So I was like, okay, so what's the real deal? So I think that's why I was like always.

[12:17] Carla Duren: Seeking to go straight to source.

[12:18] Bobby Steggert: Got it.

[12:19] Carla Duren: You're like, this is one genre and this is the other.

[12:24] Bobby Steggert: Yes, I love that, genres.

[12:26] Carla Duren: I saw it as genres.

[12:28] Bobby Steggert: I love that you just said that. Was there something about those genres that you appreciated?

[12:35] Carla Duren: Yeah, I love, what is the word I want to say? Is it ritual? I love ritual. I love a ritual, just like how in theater we have rituals. Do you know what I mean? I love pageantry.

[12:44] Bobby Steggert: All the Catholic bells and whistles.

[12:48] Carla Duren: Yeah, I love the Catholic bells and whistles. And then I love the music over in the Baptist Forest. That's probably how I ended up on Broadway. That's where I learned to sing.

[12:54] Bobby Steggert: You learned to sing through church, not through lessons and that's-

[12:58] Carla Duren: No, no formal training. It was all church choirs.

[13:02] Bobby Steggert: What state and city were you in?

[13:03] Carla Duren: Peoria, Illinois.

[13:05] Bobby Steggert: Wow, that sounds extremely white.

[13:07] Carla Duren: It was extremely segregated.

[13:10] Bobby Steggert: I see.

[13:11] Carla Duren: It was extremely segregated. It wasn't extremely white, but my experience there was very white. The neighborhood that I lived in and my father had gone to work at Caterpillar Tractor Company, which the headquarters were there. They're no longer there, but the headquarters were in Peoria. He's from North Carolina. So he picked up his wife, who's from Maryland. They met in college and that's where he found a job. And so that's where he raised his children. And because of his job, that's where I ended up. And I also went to this gifted school. So that also had another layer to it.

[13:48] Bobby Steggert: And you would think there would be more diversity there, but actually not really. Was there something about an outsider status or identity that connected you to seeking, connected you to searching for larger truths or context?

[14:02] Carla Duren: I don't think it had to do with that. I was fascinated with what's behind this show of life from a very young age. I remember laying in bed very young, being like, okay, I'm in Peoria. Okay, so now I'm in a state and then I'm in a country. And I just kept going bigger and bigger until I could figure out where I was in this universe. Like this existential awareness. I did that as a child.

[14:27] Bobby Steggert: Yes.

[14:28] Carla Duren: I would just lay in bed thinking about that all the time. And to this day, I'm still like, where exactly are we? Where is this rock that we're flying on at ridiculous speeds? Like, where are we? I think for most people, it's too overwhelming to truly consider.

[14:40] Bobby Steggert: Oh, it's like, it's everything to me. It's what gets me through this place. Because it also helps to place me in a way that it's like, okay, let's be real here. Where are we? What's actually happening? And what's really important and what's not, yeah.

[14:58] Carla Duren: Yeah, it just helps to give you a little bit of perspective when you most need it.

[15:02] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. So how did that spiritual existential awareness guide you in those teenage years as you were figuring out where to go in life?

[15:12] Carla Duren: Similarly to how we ended up here, I've always had this thing of trusting this inner pull, this, okay, like Flobby showed up, I'm supposed to be here. And that's how life was. Like when an experience or an opportunity came up that I felt aligned with, I was like, oh, that's next. Okay, I'm gonna do that. I'm doing gymnastics. Oh, I'm doing cheerleading. Oh, I'm gonna be an exchange student. Oh, I was very, I wanna say trusting, but I don't even know if it was trust yet.

[15:44] Bobby Steggert: You trusted that where you were was where you were supposed to be?

[15:47] Carla Duren: Yeah, and I always felt like I had some sort of connection, some sort of divine connection to something bigger.

[15:55] Bobby Steggert: And were you comfortable not defining that?

[15:58] Carla Duren: I was not comfortable not defining it.

[16:00] Bobby Steggert: Got it, leading to the more seeking.

[16:02] Carla Duren: Yeah, because it felt like everybody else was like okay with religion and the confines of religion. And I was like, something's missing here, gosh. But I felt very uncomfortable expressing that. And to this day, I think I still feel a little bit uncomfortable because it does feel like, you know, I do come from a religious family. And so I feel like if I express how I see things, it might be like, ooh, that's not right, actually. We have too many rules that we adhere to.

[16:30] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[16:31] Carla Duren: Too many stories.

[16:32] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. I see, how did that align with performing? Because you said something that aligns with great performing, which is having the instincts and going for it.

[16:41] Carla Duren: Yeah, performing young was just fun. I really didn't think I was gonna do this for a living. I didn't really know it was a thing you could do.

[16:54] Bobby Steggert: Like an option.

[16:55] Carla Duren: I didn't know it was an option. I thought I was gonna be a therapist.

[16:58] Bobby Steggert: That was the idea?

[16:59] Carla Duren: Yeah, I thought I was gonna be a therapist because I always knew people came to me and trusted me for my advice, even as a child. People confided in me, people trusted me. I've always been that person. And so I guess in that way, I felt like you can be that anywhere. You know what I mean? Like you could do that backstage.

[17:17] Bobby Steggert: And have you?

[17:20] Carla Duren: Yeah, when I'm like, hey, come with me to this meditation. That's essentially what I'm doing. My memory of our time together was that you and I had just this effortless bond.

[17:31] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[17:32] Carla Duren: It was partly for the show, but it was us.

[17:35] Bobby Steggert: It was us, yeah. And we just trusted each other so fully.

[17:38] Carla Duren: Yeah, I think authenticity recognizes authenticity. And that's how I saw you as just somebody that was just authentic and deeply feeling. And I admired that, actually.

[17:52] Bobby Steggert: And I see that look on your face when you're like, and I'm like, that's what, I was so enamored by you for that. I was enamored with how open you were, but also how wise you seemed and felt to be.

[18:05] Carla Duren: That's a weird thing, too. That's what I'm saying. People have always seen me as this wise thing. And in a way I get it, because I've always felt wise. But I'm like, where does that come from? And that's that weird connection that I've always had.

[18:15] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, this sounds like such a name drop, but Aristotle said that the only thing he knew was that he knew nothing.

[18:23] Carla Duren: Yeah.

[18:23] Bobby Steggert: And I think wisdom is wrapped up in that.

[18:26] Carla Duren: Yeah.

[18:27] Bobby Steggert: So the seeking is an inherent acknowledgement that you know very little.

[18:30] Carla Duren: Yes.

[18:32] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[18:33] Carla Duren: Yeah, because, yeah, yeah. But I keep going back to those younger things, like noticing these dichotomies and being like, okay, something's missing. Let me figure out what it is. I'm so curious. What is it that I don't know? Does that also explain why, in terms of the actor's life, I was so clear that this was what I was supposed to do? This was the path I was on. I'm gonna be a theater actor who does this. And you were a lot more open to all of the possibilities around performing.

[19:05] Carla Duren: Yeah.

[19:05] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, because I knew that I was there for a reason, but I didn't know what it was. And it was just to show up and be yourself. And the reason will present itself. I mean, it's just things have always presented themselves in my life. And I'm like, oh, I guess this is next. And that's what I also love about working with artists is giving them that freedom to be like, your artistry is the opportunity for you to almost channel whatever your unique thing is through you.

[19:39] Carla Duren: And so I love helping people to get in touch with their true essence. Because I think that's what I'm speaking to, of you get to be your essence no matter where you are. And that's great if you've chosen it to be in theater, but that's what makes you special. What I see is other artists trying to be like another artist or an artist they admire, the one that inspired them to get into this in the first place. And it's just like, they're just to be your inspiration. They're just the little spark to light your fire, to remind you that you have that spark because they can't. You have that in you. And it's just, I love reminding people that who you are is special and that's why you're here. That is why you're here. And that's what I love about the artist world.

[20:14] Bobby Steggert: Did you know, would you have been able to articulate ever what your essence as an artist is?

[20:24] Carla Duren: I know you can feel it, of course. You can be it. As an artist? So this is interesting because it is something that I actually do in my practice where I help people give words to their essence. So I do have like my quote unquote essence words. And one of them that I think speaks to who I am as an artist is creation. I love creating. That's why it doesn't matter to me a lot of times like what part I am. Because I've been so fortunate to be in situations where we're workshopping something. So I get to be part of the creation of something. I love being like the pawn in some great mind's hands or their eyes. And I love that feeling of helping someone else's dream come to realization. It's so exciting.

[21:08] Bobby Steggert: That always felt bigger to you than your role in it.

[21:11] Carla Duren: Yeah, the first time I did a workshop, it was George Seawolf. And I remember being like, this feels like kindergarten. Like coming to work and then learning a huge number and then coming back the next day and be like, scrapped out, we're starting all over. Some people would get very frustrated.

[21:27] Bobby Steggert: They want structure.

[21:27] Carla Duren: Yeah, and to me, I was like, this is fun. This is a thing. I'm gonna do this forever. And yeah, so that is the most exciting part to me.

[21:38] Bobby Steggert: So where did you, like we went on our separate ways and then where did your seeking journey take you? And you don't have to talk about the literal places, but where did it take you metaphorically or emotionally?

[21:49] Carla Duren: I think the next thing around like the seeking thing is I remember I did a production of like High School Musical 2 or something somewhere. And one of the people in my production introduced me to Vipassana, fear of Vipassana. It's like the 10 day meditation retreats. And so then I was like, because I had gotten into meditation a little bit with the Deepak Chopra. And then when I found out, oh, you can go somewhere and just like really immerse yourself in this. So for 10 days, it's like silence, like no phone, no nothing. The first time you do it, it's 10 days. And then you can work up to 20 or 21 days or something. But it is just meditating pretty much all day, every day. Like you have a 4 a.m. meditation, then you have a lecture and then you have like breakfast and then you have some time to yourself.

And then so that goes on for 10 days. And that was like my next venture. And so then I was like really steeped in my meditation. And then I think I was probably just happily doing that until the pandemic and everything shut down.

[22:54] Bobby Steggert: When you started really depthfully exploring meditation, did any other parts come in and make it hard on you? Or was it ever something that scared you or that felt like it was too much? Or were you really aligned with the process of discovering it?

[23:11] Carla Duren: It was really aligned. I felt, oh, this is how I can have conversation with ever this bigger divine connection I have. It felt really aligned. It felt like the thing that, key speak grounded in like productions. I would get these really great reflections back from other people that I was working with of like how I was showing up in rooms about how, oh, you kept me grounded or I learned this from you. And I can always tie it back to my meditation practice because it just helped me being so unbothered by things that other people were bothered by.

[23:44] Bobby Steggert: So really you learned the actual reality of emptiness, the Buddhist idea that nothing really has any inherent meaning.

[23:53] Carla Duren: Yeah, it's definitely a fleeting thing. I wish I could feel like that every day, all day long. But it's nice to know that there is a practice that helps you remind yourself that can be a way of seeing the world. The world is such a complex place. So it's very easy to get taken off of that ride. But it's so nice to know that, but there is a place that you can take yourself to and remember who you truly are.

[24:16] Bobby Steggert: When you say that you had conversations with source, how literal is that for you? What does that mean? How would you describe a conversation with it?

[24:24] Carla Duren: The way I think about it is like growing up, you're taught prayer in church. And I feel like prayer, and I didn't make this up. I feel like I read this somewhere and it aligned with me, but prayer is like talking to God in meditation.

[24:35] Carla Duren: And so it just felt silence and giving space for things to occur. So it's just like, I thought, is that me? Did I make that up? Should I investigate this further? Like it's very quiet. It's very still. It's, and through that practice, you strengthen your intuition and then you start to know, oh, that's the next thing I'm going to do. And, oh, this is me versus, oh, this is a passing impulse. Yes. Yes. And usually it feels very calm as opposed to a scary thought. I remember being on a plane once with my ex, who I probably had just started dating when I met you. We were going to go on vacation and we were on the actual plane on the tarmac and it kept getting delayed. And he knew me to be somebody who's very in touch with my intuition.

And I don't remember really saying it, but just came out of my mouth. I was like, I think that she got off this plane. It was a calm reflection, not a panicked fear. And he was like, really? Cause he knew me and he happened to be talking to his mom and she was like, get off that plane when she heard that I didn't want to be on it. I think they both trusted me. And we looked at the flight attendant and we're like, what would happen if we didn't want to go? Since it's delayed, you can't, you know, this long, you can get off and you just can't get your bags. You'd have to come back and get your bag. Cause your bag is. And he looked at me and I was like, yeah, I'm okay with that. So we got off. But it didn't crash, did it?

It did not. Okay. Okay. But by the time we got home, that plane was on the news because it had been on the tarmac and then delayed for so many hours that the FAA regulations like changed as a result of this plane, because people were like, not able to get their medication, but it was like eight to 10 hours, like delayed flight. It was something wild, something wild. And he was like, I'm so glad you said that. And it wasn't, it was just like a knowing like, oh, we don't need to be a part of this experience. And that sounds different to me than someone claiming psychic powers. Do you make a distinction?

[26:44] Carla Duren: I do, because I think we all have it. And I also think meditation is what helps you to tune into that voice. Cause I think we all have intuition. Yes. We just have a lot of noise that we have to navigate. And that's why silence allows you to pick through the noise. Yeah. As you've sought, that's your verb. That's your part for today's purposes. What do you believe source is?

[27:14] Carla Duren: I think it's indescribable. I think it's energy. I think it's the observer. I think it's all encompassing. I think it's unknowable in its entirety. When you hear about like quantum physics and they say like the atoms, different things change when there's an observer present, I think source is like that giant observer, do you know what I mean? I don't know how to articulate it, but that's how I reconcile how this world operates, because I do think it also adheres to the laws and the physics of this environment that we're in. So that's how my brain reconciles it.

[27:56] Bobby Steggert: Oh my God. That's, it's like almost overwhelming to hear you talk about it.

[27:59] Carla Duren: Um, it is overwhelming. That's why I really say it's unknowable in its entirety. Yeah. It's also comforting, isn't it? It's overwhelming and it's comforting.

[28:08] Bobby Steggert: Are you less afraid of death because of your seeking?

[28:12] Carla Duren: I wish I could say that. When I was very young, unfortunately someone passed away, not right in front of me, but like in my home, like very shortly after I had interaction with them and then I saw them and I was like five, so that's why I've been very, I was introduced to that very young. And so that took away some of the, Oh, this thing. I was just like, Oh, that's the thing that happens. It's very sad, but it's the thing that happens. But then I think as I've become more mature and as I've had to watch other people grapple with it, it definitely has brought up a different relationship that I have to it, do you know what I mean? Oh, this is like a real thing. But it's saying like, nobody gets out of here alive. So you're like, Oh, okay. What's that going to look like? And I've been really somebody that supports people as they have to deal with the reality of that.

[29:10] Bobby Steggert: So you've been close to people as they've been dealing with mortality.

[29:11] Carla Duren: Yeah, I have. And so that's changed it too. So I don't think I'm necessarily fearful for myself, but I can't say that I don't have some, there's something that feels like fear. I don't know what the word is. That's like, I'm not going to be like, not worried at all. You know what I mean? There's something about it that's, I have a lot of reverence for it. Maybe that's what it is. A lot of respect for it. But I also can hold a lot of space for it. I'm very good with dealing with people that have had to either deal with it with somebody close or they feel like they're looking at it themselves. I am able to hold that space in a way that I think other people aren't able to.

[29:53] Bobby Steggert: What about attachments? Because what I notice in my own growth is that of course, the more accepting I am of myself and my experience, the less I have needed other people to feel like I exist. The less I've needed a career.

[30:06] Carla Duren: That actually is beautiful.

[30:09] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, I think it's, thank you. I'll let that in. Thank you. And that's why I could walk away from acting because I realized I didn't need that feedback anymore from the world. And therapy is beautiful to me because the feedback is actually felt and it's very quietly felt between two people. And that's all I need to know. But when it comes to attachments, has your seeking a larger understanding for life and for the world helped you to lose people? Has it helped you to say goodbye to different attachments? Have you been more fluid in that?

[30:41] Carla Duren: I don't know, would be the honest answer. It's funny because I go back to that Vipassana experience and that was one of the things I noticed about attachment. In Vipassana, we were doing this in Chicago and in the winter, it was very cold. And they have a community of these boots, like hunter boots, and also Crocs. You mean like a whole pile of them? Lined up. So you would walk from your lodging to the meditation space and to get there, they had boots because a lot of people didn't have the right footwear for where we were. Okay. So they had community boots. And so you'd do that. And then once you got there, there would be some Crocs to switch into. And I got very attached to one pair of Crocs.

Do they have a specific color? Or bright orange, which is not even one of my favorite colors. But when I couldn't get the bright orange Crocs, I noticed something happened to me. So I noticed like, I do have a very, attachment is a thing. So that was a very in your face, like, girl, relax at the orange Croc. But it would really upset me. So I do notice that part of myself still exists very much. But because I see the human existence from a different viewpoint than other people, I think I do have a different way of relating to people. And also because I feel like I still can have relationships with people that aren't on this plane.

[32:08] Bobby Steggert: That's what I was also wondering about. Okay, here's my example. Being a therapist sometimes makes it hard for me to feel close to people who are not very self-aware, because I'm seeing a lot and they're seeing very little.

[32:20] Carla Duren: Yeah, yeah.

[32:21] Bobby Steggert: So how are you able to in that similarity? How are you able to do that?

[32:26] Carla Duren: How am I able to do which part of it? Be in close relationship to people who are on the plane that you're on.

[32:31] Carla Duren: Oh, because it's fascinating. It's like reality TV, but you don't need a TV. They're just right there in front of you. The human existence of behavior is so fascinating. So you're not judging. You're just learning.

[32:42] Carla Duren: I'm like, oh, I see what you're doing. And then it helps me to be the mediator and the translator for other people who don't get it, because they're like, how can you hang around this person? And like, I get them. That's beautiful. That's also very generous.

[32:56] Bobby Steggert: That's nice. And the generosity might feel just inherent to you.

[33:01] Carla Duren: I do feel like I can hold space for people that other people can't. And so you're giving words to why I find it so gratifying. So when did you start being able to own your perspective and then start sharing it?

[33:15] Carla Duren: I'm still doing it now. Like this was almost kind of scary for me.

[33:18] Bobby Steggert: Really?

[33:18] Carla Duren: Yeah, because it's like scary to be the... I feel like a wolf. Do you know what I mean? There's this part of me that feels like I love having these conversations one on one. But to just like broadcast it feels a little bit scary. But I also have that trust of, oh, now it's time. Why else would I have this opportunity? It's time to share this in this way. And it's not about me. This is about somebody who needs to hear this. Do you know what I mean? That's how I have tried to live my life.

[33:44] Bobby Steggert: Okay. As you get or have gotten closer to that, how have you started sharing it more formally in your life?

[33:49] Carla Duren: I feel like through coaching. So it tends to be more one on one.

[33:55] Bobby Steggert: Okay.

[33:55] Carla Duren: And I feel like I trust who comes to me and I'm like, oh, they are coming to me because they need to hear my perspective because it's not for everybody. My perspective is not for everybody and they're not going to agree with it. So that's where I trusted. And I've been able to fully trust, like when I talk to a client, I'll see this hope in their eyes when I give them something, some piece of wisdom that will change how they are moving or makes it okay to be them. They're like, do you really believe that? And I was like, I do. And I think that's why you're here to hear that.

[34:23] Bobby Steggert: Coaching in the sense, like how do you frame it? One could be a coach in a million different ways. So what do you mean by that?

[34:30] Carla Duren: So I have my private clients, which tends to be like our artist community. I call that soul coaching because it's really just about alignment because I don't think you have to find who you are. It's just remembering you were always that person. You just needed somebody to affirm it. You know what I mean? So that's what relationship is about. And then I also have executive clients and I work with this beautiful company which is about unleashing potential, but in the executive space. And I've become a trainer and I teach this methodology and their IP now as a trainer. So I have two separate practices, but to me, they're tied together because it's about unleashing your full potential of who you are as a human and what you're meant to do on this planet.

[35:12] Bobby Steggert: Do you think you have to code switch in terms of the environments or the kinds of people?

[35:15] Carla Duren: I don't know if I call it code switching, but I definitely use different words for different things.

[35:20] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[35:20] Carla Duren: Yeah.

[35:21] Bobby Steggert: Would that be code switching?

[35:22] Carla Duren: I think so. I'm an expert at code switching, so I don't even know when I'm not doing it. Do you know what I mean? I think that was, that's part of my survival. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[35:32] Bobby Steggert: I would just assume that in a corporate setting, you're going to be using different words.

[35:35] Carla Duren: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

[35:38] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. Cause I don't want to scare anybody away with the Wu stuff, unless they've opened that door. Do you know what I mean?

[35:42] Carla Duren: There's some clients-

[35:43] Bobby Steggert: Unless they're curious.

[35:44] Carla Duren: Yeah. There's some clients who I can see, they are very open to that and it's going to serve the same purpose.

[35:50] Bobby Steggert: So I would be so interested in more about your central philosophy about this, because for example, this podcast is all about acceptance of the parts that are crunchy for us. That's the whole idea, right? And that to me is the step towards self. And to me, self is just being in your natural state without the protections of these parts.

[36:06] Carla Duren: Yeah.

[36:10] Bobby Steggert: But we need protection. We don't need them as much as we often use them.

[36:15] Carla Duren: Exactly.

[36:16] Bobby Steggert: So what is your version of that when you're talking about finding essence?

[36:24] Carla Duren: To me, the word that's coming to mind is integration. So it's about becoming aware of all those parts, recognizing, like you said, they're there to protect you and letting them know it's okay for them to be there. They just don't get to, I say like, they don't get to drive the car.

[36:51] Carla Duren: This is a survival, an adaptation.

[36:54] Carla Duren: Yes. So for most parts when I'm looking at, am I showing up from those parts that are protecting my essence or am I showing up from essence? And reminding people that you have the freedom and the opportunity every moment of every day to show up from essence. It might feel scary, but that's the opportunity that's available to you. When you remember that showing up as essence is really just you remembering who you are, it's less scary. That's right. And I agree. The self is inherent. It's a birthright. It's a birthright. It is your birthright when you say it like that. And I love that idea of reminding people, you came into this world, this little innocent, beautiful thing. Imagine telling that version of you that you can't have this or you can't do that.

You know what I mean? Like reminding that's your birthright. So where I sometimes stop is that I think about this in the micro. I really as a therapist, I'm thinking about as far as I go is how someone's health can affect their relationships positively. Where do you take it in terms of the layers of existence? Because I think you're probably thinking about things a little bit more existentially than I am. Can you give me like a specific example?

[38:08] Carla Duren: Yeah. What do you believe the work you're doing will do to affect the world as opposed to the individual? Yeah. I'm thinking more along the lines of, there's some quote about this, like what the world needs is more people who are lit up. So I feel like if you are in your light and whatever that is, imagine everybody's showing up with their full light, their full passion and going in that direction. That's the world I want to live in. So every time I help someone to discover that part of themselves, I feel like there's a ripple effect for everyone in their life as well. And then that person gets inspired to show up more fully themselves. So we believe the same thing. You just, you see the butterfly effect.

[38:53] Carla Duren: I see the butterfly effect. Yeah. I'd like to trust that. And I also see how deeply troubled the world is. How do you think about that in terms of what we're talking about? I also believe that not everybody wants to remember who they are. Then not everybody's on that journey. Not everybody's a seeker. There's a part of me that believes that is also part of the experience here. Going back to the wisdom part of, I don't know what I don't know. I'm guessing that's part of it. That's helped me to reconcile what you're talking about. And in that sense, then I do go back to the micro and I'm like, I can only do what I can do in my corner because I'm not sure why some people are choosing not to be in their full lit up joyful self. But I give them the benefit of the doubt because I know it's probably because something happened in life that made them feel like they couldn't be that person. And this is what they think and what they truly believe they have to do to survive.

[39:59] Carla Duren: It's often connected to fear.

[40:01] Bobby Steggert: I would say always. I try not to do full on black and white things, but I can't think of a time when it's not based in fear.

[40:09] Carla Duren: That's right. Just to really round this out and humanize it, what part of you comes up against the seeking in the shittiest, most disruptive way for you?

[40:23] Carla Duren: Oh, it's just the little girl in church. Do you know what I mean?

[40:26] Bobby Steggert: The little girl from church?

[40:27] Carla Duren: Yeah, I remember. It's called confession. God, I went once and I was like, I will never do that again. This is terrifying. But it was this weird thing of what have you done wrong? And if you can't think of anything, now you got to make up something.

[40:42] Bobby Steggert: Yep.

[40:43] Carla Duren: You know what I mean? And so that's how she shows up. It's what have you done wrong? Where have you messed up? What if you're completely wrong about everything you believe?

[40:53] Bobby Steggert: That's the worst.

[40:54] Carla Duren: What does she want you to do or not do?

[40:57] Bobby Steggert: That's a good question, Bobby. What does she want me to do?

[41:00] Carla Duren: I guess in some way, just toe the line and be a good girl in some way. Just who am I to think I know better than all these other people that have come up with these religions? And I don't think I'm better, but it feels like there's some insinuation by you not adhering to everything they say. You must think you know better. So self-doubt, I would say. It's really like gnawing and it's tricky because there's no way of knowing.

[41:29] Bobby Steggert: It's insidious. Do you know what I mean?

[41:31] Carla Duren: Sure. You're never going to get proved. You can't prove you're wrong. You're never going to know. It's that you'll never know if you're right. What if you're wrong? Would it be so terrible if you're wrong? Because you don't even know what you're right about. You're just open.

[41:42] Bobby Steggert: I think in that paradigm, it would be because then you're doomed to hell. Do you know what I mean?

[41:48] Carla Duren: Yeah. And it's not even like hell in the storybook way. It's like eternal suffering. Damnation.

[41:57] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. I learned that stuff early.

[42:00] Carla Duren: So that stuff can't help but be internalized to some degree. I don't know how to obliterate that. That's one of the first things I learned. And you get it so young that I can't remember not knowing it, I feel like.

[42:13] Bobby Steggert: Catholicism didn't focus so much on the hell part for me.

[42:16] Carla Duren: Maybe I got that from the Baptist part.

[42:19] Bobby Steggert: But it all ran together because I was just a kid and I just took it all in and that's what you do. You're a sponge. It's a perfect little system.

[42:26] Carla Duren: Are you getting any, these days, real world rejection about how you experience the world or is this really more internalized stuff?

[42:36] Bobby Steggert: I think it's internalized.

[42:38] Carla Duren: I love that you put it that way. Such a great therapist. You're a good therapist.

[42:44] Bobby Steggert: Topics.

[42:46] Carla Duren: But yeah, that's probably going to be my biggest takeaway today. There's no real world support.

[42:53] Bobby Steggert: No one's telling you to do bullshit.

[42:54] Carla Duren: No, in fact, they're paying me to say it's the opposite.

[42:58] Bobby Steggert: I've got a lot more evidence of the opposite. In terms of your sharing your point of view, it's always tricky for me as a therapist. When am I supposed to share and when am I actually just supposed to hold space? And is that part of your wisdom too in the work that you do?

[43:14] Carla Duren: I feel like it's probably a little bit different in coaching. There's more directive quality. I think it's more about, because the way I hold the difference is therapy is looking into the genesis and the past and what's brought us to this point. And then I feel like the coaching is, okay, we're here. What are we going to do about it? And so I think when I am asking people to take action or asking them to change a mindset, even though their whole life before they've been operating a different way, I feel like it's helpful for you to give an example of how I know this to be true. So I will share something in my life that will give them some sort of evidence that they can believe what I'm saying.

[43:57] Bobby Steggert: So in that sense, I share, but otherwise I don't know if it's useful.

[44:01] Carla Duren: Yeah, I agree.

[44:03] Bobby Steggert: I feel like when it's useful.

[44:04] Carla Duren: Yes. You know when someone's open and you know when someone just needs to be in their experience.

[44:09] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. Because sometimes if you share something before somebody's ready, it's not going to mean anything.

[44:14] Carla Duren: That's right.

[44:15] Bobby Steggert: They're going to be like, yeah, easy for you to say.

[44:16] Carla Duren: Or they're not listening.

[44:17] Bobby Steggert: Or they're not listening.

[44:19] Carla Duren: They just can't receive it.

[44:20] Bobby Steggert: That's okay.

[44:21] Carla Duren: And that is absolutely okay.

[44:23] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, why waste our breath?

[44:24] Carla Duren: All right, bonus rounds. What is your favorite or most visceral memory about one time in the shade?

[44:32] Carla Duren: So many. This was so silly. But do you remember how I would never want to see you after you got your eye makeup on?

[44:41] Bobby Steggert: When I got my black eye?

[44:42] Carla Duren: Yeah. Because that was like, I have no formal training. So I, again, like religion, I take from all different things. So I was like, I loved that being a surprise to me every day when I saw your little black eye. And I was like, oh my gosh. But if I saw you, if I saw you at intermission, then it would take it away from me.

[45:03] Bobby Steggert: You were method.

[45:05] Carla Duren: I was method for those moments.

[45:06] Bobby Steggert: For that one scene.

[45:07] Carla Duren: For that one scene, I was completely method. And I remember you almost like rolling your eyes like, ugh, like, why do you care? But it meant so much to me.

[45:17] Bobby Steggert: Oh my god.

[45:18] Carla Duren: When I saw your black eye, it just, it took away the surprise. If I saw it during intermission.

[45:24] Bobby Steggert: Oh, you were so delicious.

[45:25] Carla Duren: Oh, you know what else I remember? I remember running through the streets, like down Broadway, like hand in hand, going to the Tony's with you. Remember we got to do the red carpet?

[45:34] Bobby Steggert: Yes.

[45:35] Carla Duren: And do you remember that Bill Irwin was like behind us? And I was like completely starstruck by that.

[45:39] Bobby Steggert: Yes, I do.

[45:41] Carla Duren: You remember that too?

[45:43] Bobby Steggert: Of course I do.

[45:44] Carla Duren: I had us romanticize like in a movie and we're running in our formal wear to the red carpet, but we really weren't. At one point we jogged, I think.

[45:51] Bobby Steggert: Why did we have to run?

[45:52] Carla Duren: I remember we had to, is it because we had just gotten out of a matinee or something?

[45:55] Bobby Steggert: I think so.

[45:56] Carla Duren: And we had to get there early because we weren't nominees or invited.

[45:59] Bobby Steggert: No, but we were invited to the red carpet, which is so weird.

[46:02] Carla Duren: Which is so gracious and lovely. And I think they like got us in early. They're like, you can go at 5pm and just get out.

[46:09] Bobby Steggert: I love that.

[46:10] Carla Duren: But you know what? That's my favorite. As a bookend, one of my favorite memories is that I had done the workshop and they just weren't sure if I was a dancer enough to actually do the role.

[46:22] Bobby Steggert: Really?

[46:23] Carla Duren: Yeah. And so they scheduled the dance call that we did together.

[46:29] Bobby Steggert: Did we do like a work session?

[46:30] Carla Duren: Yes. And I remember so clearly as soon as you and I started picking up the steps and coming live in the song, they knew that we were the right people for it.

[46:41] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[46:42] Carla Duren: And I remember feeling like this girl is a dream because we just connected so immediately.

[46:48] Bobby Steggert: It was a dream.

[46:49] Carla Duren: And they gave us the parts in the room.

[46:51] Bobby Steggert: They did?

[46:52] Carla Duren: Yes. See, that's what I'm trying to tell you. I didn't understand the significance of that.

[46:59] Bobby Steggert: Now I do.

[47:00] Carla Duren: That never happens. They called us over and they said, how would you like to be in the Broadway production of One Time to Shame?

[47:06] Bobby Steggert: I want to hug you again now because I feel like it's happening again.

[47:11] Carla Duren: And then they said, go to Shubert Alley. The poster just went up and you and I ran to Shubert Alley to see the poster of Audra in the rain.

[47:21] Bobby Steggert: You and I did that together.

[47:23] Carla Duren: I love that you just gave me that moment back.

[47:25] Bobby Steggert: I'm so glad.

[47:26] Carla Duren: Because I didn't know anything back then.

[47:29] Bobby Steggert: That was like my first, I didn't know what was going on.

[47:32] Carla Duren: I didn't know the Broadway was a dream. Do you know what I mean?

[47:35] Bobby Steggert: Oh my God, how fascinating.

[47:37] Carla Duren: Because I knew if I get this role, it will change my life.

[47:41] Bobby Steggert: It was high stakes for me.

[47:43] Carla Duren: Wow.

[47:43] Bobby Steggert: So we came at it from like totally different angles.

[47:45] Carla Duren: Totally different.

[47:46] Bobby Steggert: It definitely changed my life.

[47:48] Carla Duren: But yeah, I didn't know anything.

[47:50] Bobby Steggert: Oh my God, let's hug it out.

[47:52] Carla Duren: Yes, thank you so much.

[47:54] Carla Duren: She's starting to yell.

[47:57] Bobby Steggert: I tell her to hush.

[47:59] Carla Duren: She's starting to run.

[48:01] Carla Duren: And then with a rush, I fly through the air.

[48:07] Carla Duren: I'm pinning her flat.

[48:09] Carla Duren: Because I won't go home without her little red hat.

[48:13] Carla Duren: My little red hat.

[48:14] Carla Duren: You gotta be big and strong.

[48:16] Carla Duren: You gotta be faster.

[48:18] Carla Duren: Whenever you let her take the lead, you're courting disaster.

[48:23] Carla Duren: I'm holding her close.

[48:24] Carla Duren: He's holding me close.

[48:25] Carla Duren: I'm holding her nice.

[48:27] Carla Duren: He's holding me nice.

[48:28] Carla Duren: I'm kissing her once.

[48:29] Carla Duren: He's kissing me once.

[48:30] Carla Duren: I'm kissing her twice.

[48:32] Carla Duren: I'm talking so sweet.

[48:34] Carla Duren: He's talking so sweet.

[48:35] Carla Duren: I'm figuring that.

[48:37] Carla Duren: Boy, I'm gonna reach the moon tonight.

[48:40] Carla Duren: Yes, I'm gonna climb the highest height.

[48:42] Carla Duren: And I won't go home without her little red hat.

[48:45] Carla Duren: My little red hat.

[49:00] Carla Duren: My little red hat.