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[0:00] Bobby Steggert: I'm Bobby Steggart, and this is The Quiet Part Out Loud.

[0:15] Bobby Steggert: We tend to think of the people who chronicle our lives—painters, writers, photographers—as outsiders. People who hide behind the lens, observing life as opposed to participating in it. Take any of the examples in the theater world alone, from George Surratt in Sunday in the Park with George, to Mark Cohen in Rent. Recently, I got to play the great American painter, John Singer Sargent, in the upcoming season of The Gilded Age, and he certainly fits the bill. For being as immensely popular as he was, he remains primarily a mystery in terms of who he really was outside of his work. If you compare his self-portraits to his great masterpieces of people portrayed with stunning psychological complexity, they're oddly opaque and neutral, giving really nothing away about what he may actually feel.

Historians are left to decipher who he was based primarily on the way he depicted others, how he may have projected his innermost attributes onto how he observed those around him. And so I entered into this week's conversation with Jenny Anderson, making some assumptions. Jenny has built an astounding career as the preeminent photographer of Broadway culture. We started in the business at around the same time when she was working at Broadway.com, and she'd be this wonderfully familiar face at openings, events, and parties. Over the years, she has relied on her talent, and moreover, her easy way of connecting—the friendship and intimacy she has fostered with so many of the artists that she captures—helping her to become the most trusted photographer of the private and backstage lives of actors.

It's arguable that there are a million ways to hide. You could say that one hides in plain sight, portraying other people on stage. What Jenny reveals is that there are also a million ways to connect. There may be elements of distance that her camera does create, but she describes the belonging that she has found by growing up loving theater, knowing the stage wasn't meant for her, and nonetheless developing a talent for supporting and portraying the world she loves so much. Today, she finds herself a beloved and essential member of the community she hoped she could find her way into one day. Also, Jenny just published a book of backstage Broadway photography called The Inbetween. It's available on Amazon now.

It's beautiful and intimate, a collection of so many favorite actors and private moments. You learn that the in-between isn't a neutral place, but somewhere where photographer and subject meet in a moment of true connection.

[3:06] Bobby Steggert: So when I was thinking about talking to you, I was thinking about the countless times that I ran into you over the years. So many red carpets and backstage and opening nights and interviews and all that stuff. And when I think about you in all of those settings, I think about this really interesting dichotomy between you fitting in so quietly and also having this very visceral presence. Whereas most photographers are a camera, you were always the camera and the human. And in having that reflected to you, what does that mean to you?

[3:39] Jenny Anderson: It's very sweet. I hope that's what I am because I don't want to ever not be a human in those spaces because I'm working with humans. I'm interacting with humans. And I think that's my best asset as a photographer, being personable and friendly and loving. And also I want to take care of the person that I'm taking photos of because otherwise I'm not going to get a good photo. The work that I do won't be beautiful. It won't be well received. And I want that person to feel good because I don't know, having your picture taken is such a personal thing and I genuinely hate it myself, but that feels lovely to hear because I want that to be what people perceive when they see me. And I also just love being a part of this specific community too. And I don't ever want to feel like an outsider who's coming in. I want to feel like someone who is there and has always been there and belongs there. And I just also happen to have a camera in my hand.

[4:37] Bobby Steggert: It's impressive, of course, to do it as a portrait photographer, but you were able to do it in very busy spaces with a lot of other people too. I always found that so interesting that I would look at you and feel a personal connection, even if it was just for a moment in the larger context of a larger space.

[4:53] Jenny Anderson: I think too, I grew up a theater kid as much as I could grow up with theater kid in the South, but my mom was a theater teacher my whole life and she was in theater and was a performer and a singer. And so I was just always in those spaces with those people anyway. And so I desperately tried to find my place in those spaces when I was a kid because I wanted to be a singer or I wanted to be a performer, but then I wasn't quite good enough or maybe I did have some talent, but I didn't have confidence for it. So I couldn't quite find who I was in those places besides being my mother's daughter. And then it wasn't until later after auditioning and being in shows and trying to do that, that I found photography.

I was trying to find my way into those spaces without feeling fraudulent, like I was just there as someone's kid or I was just running around. I wanted to be a part of it in a specific or special way. And being an actor and a singer wasn't the way I was going to get there. And I wasn't like, "gotta find something." Photography came naturally, which was great. And it just fit well into that place.

[6:00] Bobby Steggert: So it was a sort of creative way to be seen by seeing others.

[6:04] Jenny Anderson: Absolutely. And both of my parents are artists in my whole life, like performers and my dad's an art teacher. And so never any pressure from them to be that as well. Obviously, it was probably the opposite. They were like, "No, go be a doctor, go be an engineer." But I desperately wanted to fit in their world too because I just loved everything they did. And so finding my own thing, because my dad is like a masterful musician and my mom is an insane singer. And I just knew I wasn't going to be either of those things. Again, no pressure from them. And I didn't feel less than I just was like, "I gotta find my thing. What's my thing?" And thankfully, I found it with photography later.

[6:39] Bobby Steggert: So part of it was that they were so excellent at their craft that you didn't want to be in comparison to them?

[6:46] Jenny Anderson: Maybe. And their careers led them to be teachers. And I have just the utmost respect for teachers, but I didn't really want to be one. It looked hard. I just felt like being a teacher would be too tough for me, and I didn't necessarily want to do it. And I actually wasn't going to do the arts at all. Art was definitely more of a hobby, and I loved it. And I'm glad I had it in my life. But I was like, "You know what, I'll figure out my own thing." And I wanted to be a doctor for the longest time. And I wanted to be specifically a pediatrician, which is where that connection of people came, because I wanted to take care of someone and help them and protect them, and especially children. I've always been really good with kids.

So I did two years of pre-med, but I wasn't doing very well in those classes because I was always at yearbook or at the theater department or in the band. I was doing 85 extracurriculars that I wasn't paying attention. So clearly, my brain and my heart wanted two different things. And ultimately, I figured out that I just wanted to be the TV doctor, the romanticized version of what a doctor was. And so I was like, "Okay, clearly you want to be an artistic person. You are an artistic person."

[7:54] Bobby Steggert: How did you know that you were visual? What were the signs that your eyes were the sense that you most wanted to use as an artist?

[8:04] Jenny Anderson: My dad always said I had incredible composition skills. When I was a kid, I used to be obsessed with making collages. I would just sit in a pile of magazines and cut things out and put them together just for fun. There was no goal, really. I would decoupage things. I just loved putting things together. I guess because I see in photographs, especially now after doing it for 20 years, but I walk around day to day and I'm like, "That's a photo, that's a photo, that's a photo." It's so hard for me to turn my brain off, even when I don't have it in my hand. And when I don't have it in my hand and I see something really good, I get a little, "Why do I have a camera in my hand?" I've just been incredibly visual.

I'm a visual learner too. Growing up in middle school and high school, I was really bad at math, but I was very good at geometry because it was visual and it was shapes. I've always been a visual learner. He handed me my first photography book when I was maybe 13, 14. It was photography of rural life, older people on porches and people in the fields or on tractors. That's what I saw every day in my life where I grew up. So I think I just was like, "Oh, I didn't realize the things that I'm looking at every day. It's art." My grandfather shelling peas on the porch that sounds so country, but it's true. And my grandfather on a tractor out in the yard, all these things were like, "Oh, this is things I can capture. And it's my art, my life in art."

[9:28] Bobby Steggert: Were you yet as a young person photographing artists backstage like you do today?

[9:34] Jenny Anderson: I just started doing that until college. I went to two colleges. First, I went to a junior college, which is where I started my pre-med stuff. And then I quickly stopped doing that, moved on to journalism. And then I went to Ole Miss University after I finished the two years at junior college. Once I got to Ole Miss, I was like, "Okay, I got to get into everything I need to get into." So I got into the journalism department and we had a huge media center. And then the theater department, which is where I wanted to be. And that was my minor, was theater, just because it could be. And I immediately went to the teachers there and the professors and was like, "I just want to take photos of theater.

Can I come backstage or can I take photos of the show itself?" And they're like, "Yeah, sure." And I started just doing it for fun. And then I started doing it for the paper. And I became friends with the theater kids. And the first show I ever went backstage, Streetcar Named Desire. And I was already friends with them. And I was like, "Hey, can I come back there and just take some photos while you guys are getting ready?" And theater kids are like, "Hell yeah. Please take our picture." And so the first photo I remember taking a picture of a friend of mine, Haley, and putting her pin curls on. And I was like, "That's it. That's what I want to do." It's nuts back there. It's not the first time I had been backstage because I had been backstage as a kid with my mom, but I hadn't quite figured out the photography part of it. I regret that so much. I wish as a kid I would have known that I could do that because I would have all these photos of my mom and the people she acted with. But I figured it out in college.

[11:02] Bobby Steggert: I'm so interested in the psychology of photography in the sense that two things. You've shared with me that being from the South made you social and able to relate to people. I'd love to know about that because I'm such an Eastern seaboard person and what it means to you in terms of being from Mississippi as a social person. And then I always wonder when you walk into a space with a camera, does that role give you permission and confidence to be in that space?

[11:32] Jenny Anderson: I've always been a chubby kid. I've just always been social ever since I was little. I think it's because my parents are so young when they had me. My mom was 19 when she got married and she had me four days before she turned 21 and my dad was 24. So I had baby parents and for 10 years I was the only child. So it was the three of us growing up together. They took me everywhere. I was in every adult situation possible. Like I said, my mom did theater so I was backstage with her and then my dad was a bluegrass musician and I went to festivals with him. So it was just always around adults and I was the oldest grandchild on both sides. So I've just always been an adult before I was an adult, kind of.

So that helped with the social. And then being Southern, it's just baked in. Being open and kind and there's a lot about the South that's scary and awful, but there's also the humans there where we will talk to you, we'll bring you into our home, we'll feed you, we'll give you our shirt off our back. So that's just always the mentality I grew up with, especially with my grandparents, my dad's side. My grandfather was like that. My Mimi was like that. Being social and being Southern, I feel are kind of hand in hand. And then, yeah, I think it gives me absolutely, when I walk into a room and I have a camera, I'm like, "I'm personable." And look, I am still not an introvert by any means, but I am still very conscious of other people's space.

I don't want to intrude on anybody. I'll never take a picture of you if you don't want it, which is why I would have been a terrible paparazzi photographer. And even when I first started in my 20s, when I was right off the plane from Mississippi into an internship, I was so scared to ask people to take photos just because they didn't know me and I didn't know them. So I think that was a defense too. It was like, "Okay, they need to get to know me. I need to get to know them because I want this to be a flow for me to walk into a room and be able to do this."

[13:34] Bobby Steggert: A defense against being brave in terms of taking pictures.

[13:34] Jenny Anderson: Yeah. Because in college, I was a theater minor and I took this theater director class. And one of our big end of the year projects, we had to direct BFA students. I had to direct them in a scene. And I was terrified because I was like, "I have to give someone direction. Like I have to tell someone what to do." And I'm a little cancer girl. I'm like, "In my own little shell and keep to myself." So there was a lot of confidence that had to be built up to be able to tell someone what to do or to give someone direction or anything like that. And a lot of people want to be told like, "What do I do with my hands? What do I do with my face?" I still think that's the thing I'm not as good at is telling you what to do. But what I am good at is disarming you into being comfortable. And so by using my personality and my warmth to be your friend, then you're disarmed and you calm down and then you take a good picture without me having to direct you.

[14:41] Jenny Anderson: Have you ever felt because you are maybe assumed by some people doing a service? Have you ever felt dehumanized in the role? Not to kind of to find point on it, but usually by other male photographers, not to hate on men just right out the gate, but or other men.

[14:52] Jenny Anderson: I'm Jenny Anderson. I'm a veteran in charge. I tend to talk down to you or treat you as if you're just a little girl, like you couldn't walk into this room and handle this room on your own. In the beginning, it didn't really bother me as much because I was young and I was brand new to this world. And yep, they're right. But now I'm 40 years old. I've been in this business for 18 years. I've had a camera in my hand for at least 20, 23 years. I walk into a space, it actually happened this week, in a very chill way. I actually am not upset at this human at all, but they were just like, have you ever done this before? Oh, my God. And it was like, clearly taking photos of something that I've absolutely done several times.

Basically, they were asking me if there was something specific I could do or not do with my camera. And I said, yes, of course. And look, in those instances, they're doing their job too, right? They're making sure that I'm not going to do the wrong thing that makes their job harder. I get that. But I just feel like men especially look at me. I have a very young face. I always have. I've always looked like a baby. So when I walk into a room, I don't necessarily exude she's in charge. I try to now as an adult woman. When I was younger, I definitely kept myself a little smaller. But now I've been in this business so long that I am super confident in most rooms that I walk in. I'm confident that at least 10 people in that room are going to know who I am.

I'm confident in my skill as a photographer most days. So yes, there have been plenty of instances where I have felt smaller and younger and not worthy, just maybe I wasn't supposed to be there, like a better photographer could have been in that space.

[16:41] Bobby Steggert: Have you always been confident in your social skills in order to disarm people? Is that something you learned or is that something you've always known?

[16:45] Jenny Anderson: I think I definitely learned it once I got to New York. I think I knew I had it a little bit in college, but I was still the follower. My friends are always more the alpha. Like they're the funny ones in the room. They're the talented ones in the room. And I was secondary. I don't mean that in a bad way at all. I meant that more in like a safe way. I'm like, yeah, I'm confident in who I am to a degree, but also I'm so happy for other people to shine and be the one in the room. I don't have to be the one in the room ever. But as a kid, I think I was not that at all. I think I was pretty terrified of most rooms. I was chatty and like I said, I was a really talkative person, but I still wasn't very confident.

I don't feel like I was. I wonder what my parents would say. I feel like it's definitely something I have gained over the years and it's because I've gained respect in the business and because I have honed my talent. I feel like I'm a much better photographer today than I was 15 years ago, obviously. And photography was really something I taught myself. I only have ever taken one photography class and it was a photojournalism class. So it was less about learning how to use a camera, more about how to take photos of a specific thing. So I wasn't confident with the equipment. And I think once I got a little more confident with the equipment, the rest of it fell in place. Like your dad said, the composition was always something that you intuited.

[18:13] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, the eye was always there.

[18:15] Jenny Anderson: I could look at something and know that's the right photo. That's what I should be taking. But whether it came out the way I wanted it to or not was not always the case because I wasn't quite skilled enough. I still am not an equipment person. There are so many photographers that are like, Ooh, you have the blah, blah, blah, and they'll spout a bunch of stuff. And I'll be like, yeah, sure. I'm just not an equipment head at all. I never really have been. I feel like most of my skill is me as a person and then maybe 10% a camera.

[18:44] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back.

[18:52] Jenny Anderson: Was taking pictures for you ever a way not to be seen? I know that earlier I said it was a way to be seen as a member of the theater community that was a creative way in, but was it ever a way to hide as well?

[19:06] Jenny Anderson: Oh, sure. Like you can hide behind it so easily. Like I can slip into a room and stand in a corner and take photos and no one will even know I'm really there. And that is sometimes some days great if I don't want to interact or if I just really want to make sure I get things I need to get without disrupting the room or disrupting what's going on. Because I again, I want the photos to be good. And sometimes when they know I'm there people will shut down or freeze up or act a different way. So me hiding is a good thing. And then like I said, I don't like my picture taken. So I like hiding behind it and not getting in front. But the older I get, the more I'm like, man, I wish I was more present in my work just because, you know, when I'm 80, 90 years old, hopefully, knock on wood, what will I have to look back at?

I'll have photos that I took, but I won't sincerely see myself in them. But I've recently started, if I'm backstage shooting someone, I've tried to start taking a photo of myself in the mirror with them. The camera's either usually near my face or covering my face or something. But I just to have that one image to know that I was there. So I'm trying to do that just to document and I regret not doing it the last 18 years.

[20:25] Bobby Steggert: Is it a challenge to yourself too? A challenge to be seen more?

[20:30] Jenny Anderson: I don't know. I forget. I'll walk out of a space and be like, crap, I didn't take that photo. But I'm never really upset about it because it's not really about me. I feel like I'm seen by the person enough that I don't feel not seen. I don't feel like I'm trying to hide anymore. In college, for sure. But I don't feel like I'm doing that anymore. I feel like I'm very open and present. And if I walk out of the room not taking a photo of myself, oh, I was just so present in the moment taking care of that person and making sure I got the thing that I'm there to do that it wasn't about me. Like I didn't need to do that. But I do need to remind myself to put myself out there a little more.

[21:07] Bobby Steggert: I'm thinking about what it means to you to connect because you've always understood it as a skill and something that was your way into doing good work. What does connection in those moments feel like to you and how do you foster it?

[21:23] Jenny Anderson: So when I started this job, I was 22. I was right out of college. So I was like, how am I going to do this? How am I going to break into this? Broadway is so big in terms of where I came from, like Mississippi, rural life, like the only glimpse into theater was watching the Tonys once a year or cast out with my mom pushed on me to listen to. So when I got here, I was like, gosh, I want to be in this space. But like, how do I do that? So now all 18 years later, when I walk into a room and three actors run up to me or two press agents run up to me and they all say, hey, and they want to talk to me personally. It's not necessarily about that I'm there to take a photo. Gosh, it feels insane to say that it feels good because then I'm complimenting myself because I'm not very good at that.

But I think as like a nerdy little kid who definitely had friends when I was younger, but you know, I don't have TikTok on yet bullied. And I think being popular is too strong of a word, but being someone that people recognize in a room that they want to come and talk to, consider a part of their community without being an actor without being a performer. Gosh, it feels it feels insane. It feels amazing. I had this very specific memory that kind of clicked for me for the first time. It was the Tony Awards. What year was it? I think it might have been the Tonys before COVID. So 2019 and I had been outside on the carpet shooting and I ran inside to go backstage to take photos right before the telecast starts and there were like 70 to 100 people back there because they were about to do a huge number on stage with all the shows of that season.

I walked backstage and it was every actor performer dresser everyone from that season all in the wings. And the first thing when I walked there everyone screamed my name. There was like and this again this story sounds so conceited but walking into that space and having those people who were there to perform on the Tonys like they were there to do something incredible for themselves that they saw me and recognized me in that space and were excited to see me really just blew my brain.

[23:40] Bobby Steggert: That's beautiful. It's about belonging.

[23:43] Jenny Anderson: Yeah, for sure. And who doesn't want to belong? I think a lot of people would say they wouldn't because they want to feel and they want to seem cool. But I want to belong. I want to I want to feel welcome and I want them to feel that way too where they see me. So it's the same right like when I walk in a room and they immediately feel like Jenny's here. Thankfully, I get that a lot too when I walk into spaces, especially in spaces like that like these big like leading up to the Tonys. There's all these different events and a lot of the nominees who are first-time nominees. They'll tell me how glad you're here feel so much calmer and safe that you're here and that means the world to me number one on the list of things. It's when I walk into those spaces and someone runs up to me and says they feel more comfortable than I'm there that they can relax. That's like the biggest compliment.

[24:36] Bobby Steggert: Do you see part of your role is one of support?

[24:41] Jenny Anderson: Yo, yeah, for sure. And I think another reason to when I started at 22, so did a lot of other actors that I've now grown up with like Ariana DeBose and Ashley Park and Adrian Warren. We were all starting around the same time and Jonathan Groff and all these people like I met them when we were kids and now their careers are insane now, which is incredible to watch and I've been along the way or for a lot of it. And so to make those people feel safe in their spaces is incredible and they make me feel safe because we have grown up together and I know I can do my job. I can walk over there and get a photo of Jonathan and he's going to hug me and envelop me and then I'll get the great shot. But also he feels like he was just taken care of by a friend rather than some photographer wants to come get his photograph.

[25:30] Bobby Steggert: That's right because oftentimes having your photo taken can feel like something's taken from you and you want to do the opposite.

[25:36] Jenny Anderson: Or that you're working. You're like you're paying for your supper kind of thing. You're like, oh, I gotta go take photos and again not to keep talking about the Tony Awards, but I do them every year and every year there's new young people that are having their nominations for the first time or people who've been in the business forever and getting their first nomination. And so these spaces are uncomfortable and scary because you're in a room with all of these producers and suits and you have to talk and engage and then you also have to take photos. You have to look good. You have to dress nice. And I think when you see a person across the room that is your friend or someone you've been with all year long or all season long, it's just puts you in a better space to be able to do that.

[26:22] Bobby Steggert: I'm getting the feeling that while I'm sure you have parts of you that are about business and career that you've always been really focused on the human aspect of it.

[26:33] Jenny Anderson: When I walk into a room, the first thing on my mind is to do my job that I'm there to do, not to make sure I get another job later. I'm not super good at like I'll meet someone and I'll remember them and I'll definitely talk to them the next time I see them, but I don't necessarily see that person and be like, ooh, I need to keep them close to me or keep their email, keep their number. So if I ever need this and this in the future, I can reach out to them. I could be better at that, not to drop this, but I have a book coming out and I'm starting to have to do my own marketing and publicity and market myself, which is so wild. And now is the time where I should be able to call on people in the past.

And I am to a degree, but I was like, oh man, I should have done a better job of keeping those people closer to me. Help me do this. But I don't know. I think I never really wanted to be that person. I like who I am and how I approach a job and how I walk into a room. So I never really wanted to turn into the person who's, oh, I'm here to wheel and deal and make sure when I walk out of the room, people know me. I'm there to do the job and leave. And then if people remember me for being a kind person, a talented person, a person that's good in the room, great. That's what I want them to know.

[27:55] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back.

[27:58] Jenny Anderson: Your book is all portraits of people backstage, and I think it's such an amazing idea. What's it called and what drew you to that environment in terms of taking these portraits?

[28:09] Jenny Anderson: It's called The In-Between and there's a subtitle that's called The Intimate and Candid Moments of Broadway Stars. The In-Between for me is like two definitions. The in-between moment. It's not while they're on stage. It's before or it's after. It's in the wings. It's during rehearsal. It's during tech. It's in between the time you actually see them on stage performing. So that's the main meaning. And then the meaning for me personally is the in-between, between us, between me and that subject. Because most of the time these photographs, we're the only two people in the room. Unless there's dressers around, there's behind-the-scenes people around, press agents maybe. But most of the time it's me and that person in their dressing room or me and that person in the wings.

So it's just this quiet before it starts moment that I'm capturing these intimate moments that a lot of people don't get to see or experience. And for me, that's where the good stuff is, right? That's the stuff that you don't see, the behind-the-scenes, the intimate, quiet moments before an actor comes out and gives you the show that you've paid to see. That's the cool part for me.

[29:20] Bobby Steggert: You recently posted, I think, a picture of Celia, which is featured in the book. And in her face, I can see you. I can see her seeing you.

[29:25] Jenny Anderson: Oh, that's very sweet. Celia is one of my dearest. And she's another one where her career obviously was well-established before I came to New York. But I do still feel like I've seen a good bit of her career and life.

[29:44] Jenny Anderson: I knew her before she was a mother and after and seen her perform and all these different spaces. And she's someone I connected with early on. And so I've photographed a lot of her career over the last 17, 18 years. And when we see each other, I feel like, oh my god, my heart is gonna burst. I just love that face so much. So maybe she sees a little bit out of me when I see her. So it's reflected back. I think so. But yeah, I love that photo of her because she's just her sweet little face in class. Oh, that was when she was playing Laura, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Will you tell me more about this thing you mentioned earlier about relationships and being comfortable being the beta? What do you think that comes from?

[30:27] Jenny Anderson: Yeah. Gosh, I don't know. Sure. I should probably talk about it with a therapist. So we're doing here. Oh, I've always felt I don't need to be the person that is like, the funny one in the room or the pretty one in the room or any of those things, because if the person next to me is that, I'm happy to support them and be their friend and be their person. I mean, I want to be liked and loved, of course, like, absolutely cop to that. Who doesn't? I really like to be liked, so much so that if I upset you, I'm like, I will not stop thinking about it for several days. Like, what did I do? Can I fix it? Oh, no. And I guess that just comes from insecurity, being insecure when I was a little kid. I was always like a chubby kid, fat kid.

So that was never seen as the cool thing or the pretty thing. So I've struggled with that my whole life. And I still do as an adult. But I feel like an adult, that's not what people see when I walk in a room anymore. They see, oh, that's Jenny. Really, Jenny Anderson photo, I get that a lot. People put that on the end of my name. All three words. It's my Instagram handle. But it's like a lot of people call me that. It's so silly. So I think it took me a long time to not feel like the fat kid around.

[31:49] Jenny Anderson: We're really going deep, aren't we? And I think being seen as a talented person and a warm person, that's what I have always wanted to be seen as. I guess being alpha has never been something I aspired to be. I just want to be a person. I just want to be liked and loved by the people I like and love. And that's enough. What's so wonderful and so human is that in some ways you felt insecure, but you used those insecurities in a way to cultivate a talent that gave you real self-worth and real self-value that you have grown into.

[32:28] Jenny Anderson: It's really great because I don't think it was something that I was like, oh, I got to do this. I got to find the thing that makes me feel like I have power and presence. And I'm so glad it got to me. And the maturity and just moving to New York at 22 will really just throw you in there and make you sink or swim. So I think that was a big part of it. But yeah, I don't know that there was an active moment in my life where I was like, okay, I've got to find this thing that's going to make me feel good about myself. It just thankfully got to me. My best friend and I always look at each other and we say, aren't you so happy that we're artists? Aren't you so glad that we're talented at something?

Because there are people in the world and there are other talents. Finance is a talent and engineering is a talent. But we are just so thankful that what we are good at is art. And I think that's the community I've always wanted to be a part of since I was a little child. I just wanted to be artistic. And I'm sure it has a lot to do with my parents because they were always singing or performing or painting or something. So I guess I wanted to see myself in them and I still do.

[33:42] Jenny Anderson: I'm also thinking about this double-edged sword between how art and photography in your case can bring you into connection and might be an obstacle to connection. And I wonder if, you said earlier, you see everything as a picture. Do you ever find because of your work that you are observing life as opposed to participating in it?

[34:01] Jenny Anderson: Probably. I love to work. I am a self-diagnosed workaholic. I discovered this about myself during COVID. But I've also discovered that I'm okay with it. I see my friends, I go to dinner, I enjoy time. But if a job comes up that I want, I will take it and I will figure out a way to take it. I'll say, I'm so sorry, I can't do this thing because I have to do this job. And I don't think it's out any... I mean, look, I'm single. I'm not married. I don't have children. Maybe I have put all that on the back burner because career and job has always been what I wanted. And now that I'm 40, I'm certainly sitting and being like, oh, shit. Did I completely miss the boat on that?

[34:45] Bobby Steggert: Do you fear that you did?

[34:45] Jenny Anderson: Certainly with children, that's the scary part. As a woman who, again, saying that I'm 40 three times, but that stuff is, that's real. That's just science and biology. There's a lot of ways to be a mother. And I love that I can pick up and go and do a job and not have to sacrifice a child at home or a husband at home or anything like that. But of course, there's the other side of me that's, oh, man, did I push too hard for this career that I didn't do the other things in time? And I think the answer is probably no, because there's a lot to life. Life is very long. So it's something I've been thinking about now. And it's not something that's really weighed on me until the last five years. When I hit 35, I was like, oh, what are we doing here?

But then you could ask me tomorrow and I'd be like, oh, no, I'm going to go to Mexico in a few days and I'm going to do this. So I feel like I definitely live my current life to the fullest. Like I love it. I love my friends and my family. And I travel a lot. I do whatever. Again, I take every job that I want to take. But the other side of having family, that is something I'm a little nervous that I maybe put off. But it's also something that I can choose to not put off anymore. I can, I just got to figure out what that is, what that balance is. Would that mean sacrificing work? And would that be really uncomfortable? It might. It would certainly change it. Because when I was in my 20s, if you would have asked me, would you ever have children by yourself?

I would have been like, yeah, I don't need a man. I don't need a husband. I don't need a partner. But the older I get, I'm like, that's insane. Not having someone to do it with is starting to be a little scarier than to not have that at all. Just because I do want to continue my career and I want to continue being the person I am. But also I want to be able to share it with someone. That's like the biggest thing for me now.

[36:40] Jenny Anderson: The older I get, the more I'm like, yes, I could do it on my own. I'm a badass. I'm a woman. I can do this. And I've had a long life of not telling myself I'm that. So I can say it out loud now that I am strong and confident enough to do those things on my own. And of course, we all have community. I have friends that would show up and family that would show up. But I think the biggest sacrifice wouldn't be career. Because I feel like at this point, I've had a great career and I don't think it's going to go away. Even though every single day, I'm like, does anyone like me? If I don't work for two days, am I less than? But that's just the free life. Get in your head about it. But no, I don't know.

I don't have a strong answer to that. But I don't. I think whatever I choose to do, if children do happen in the next few years, or if a partner happens in the next few years, I think you just figure it out, right? You balance it out. And I'm happy that I put all my, for lack of a better way to say, eggs in the career basket. Now I'm just worried about those other eggs. It's a give and a take. It really is. And I'm not upset. I don't wake up every day being like, oh, I'm missing something. And I guess the day I do wake up and feel that way, then I'll have to figure it out. I'll have to change something.

[37:55] Bobby Steggert: So this is layered, because I asked if you ever feel like you're not living life, but observing it. It sounds like there are elements to yes and no, in that if you're a self-proclaimed workaholic, has it felt like there are certain aspects of life that haven't got your attention?

[38:10] Jenny Anderson: Yeah, just with personal life. But the thing about being a workaholic, which is such a strong word, I shouldn't really say it like that. But during COVID, I didn't want to take any photos. I was so sad that I wasn't able to do it the way that I've always done it and the way that I love doing it that I was like, this is no.

[38:29] Bobby Steggert: You wanted people as your subjects.

[38:32] Jenny Anderson: Yeah, but also theater. I just missed being in the room that I have desperately wanted to be in and also worked so hard to be in that now we weren't in those rooms anymore. And I wasn't with those people. So I was like, I'm gonna take a break. And it's also just scary and sad. The world was this question mark of what was going on. So I put the camera down and for 30 days did not touch a camera. I didn't think about it. I cleaned my house, I baked, I did everything everybody did. But after those 30 days, I was like, I'm losing my mind. I have not taken a photo. I have not seen another person in the way that I enjoy seeing them. What can I do to change this? So I started doing these sessions like you and I are doing now.

Basically, get on the computer, we chat for a little bit about the world and how we were feeling. And then I would take photos of them on the computer, like, literally a camera in my hand, looking at the screen, taking photos of the computer screen. And I didn't know what I wanted it to be. I just wanted to try it. And the first one I did was with Ari DeVos, of course, because she is my number one always. And she got on the call with me, we talked a little bit and she moved around. I took some photos. And then I was like, I think I'm going to post them if you're okay with that. Is that weird? No, no post, do whatever you want. And I was like, will you just tell me a few words of what you're thinking about right now and how you feel?

And she did. And I put that in the caption. I did 150 of those, which sounds truly crazy. Like I have a problem. But it was so therapeutic. It was healing. It was me and made me feel like myself again. I did two or three a day. It became like a sort of schedule. Like every morning, I'd get up, eat breakfast, I do one, I'd edit one, I'd do another one, I'd edit one, I'd eat dinner, I'd go to bed. So it became like a thing. So it wasn't so much a workaholic, it was necessity. It was what I needed to do, because I would have just withered away without it. And so I think about that now too, if I were to just not stop being a photographer, because I'm never going to stop doing that. But if I were to do it less than I do it now, it just wouldn't feel authentic.

Like it feels... And look, I've gotten so much better at saying no to the things that I don't want to do. I didn't used to be that way. I used to be like, I'd say yes to everything or no one's ever going to want to hire me. I'd say yes to everything or I won't pay rent or whatever the reason. But now I'm like, I don't particularly want to do this because it's not actually my skill set anymore. It's a little outside of what I want to be known for. You can say no to this, or you can give it to someone else. My favorite thing to do is to give it to an assistant. I have a few women now that work for me or work with me, like they have other jobs. And I'm so happy to give that to them. Because I didn't necessarily have that when I was 22. No one was really handing me jobs. And I had to work for everything.

[41:36] Bobby Steggert: I'm realizing sometimes we talk early and we decide what the part is. And you and I kind of didn't, we just talked about themes. But what I'm realizing is that photography is connection. That's the way that you have found meaningful connection in life. And you instinctively through the pandemic knew that would need to be your way to reach out to people. It was a tool through which to reach out.

[41:51] Jenny Anderson: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And it felt so good. And I had so many people say that it felt good for them too. They felt connected in that moment. They felt they needed to connect with another human, but also talk about what was going on. And after a while, I had people coming to me asking me to do it. Can I do one? And I was like, yeah, sure.

[42:17] Bobby Steggert: Final question. So I'm catching you at an interesting time in that you're about to put out this book in which you are represented differently. And so what does it mean to be in the foreground all of a sudden?

[42:23] Jenny Anderson: I'm now on the other side of this thing that I've always been receiving on this. But my friend, she's like, how do you feel that you're going to have to start talking about yourself? She knows that I've always loved to do that. And I was like, you know what? I think I'm ready for it. I'm proud of what I've done. And I'm so happy to share it with the world. And a lot of it is talking about the work, not necessarily talking about me personally. This is probably the most personal. So that's lovely. Talk about connection. You're good at it. And I've known you for so long that it's been easy to just do it.

[43:00] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. I've related to you a lot in this conversation in terms of the job of therapist and photographer, and I never would have compared them before.

[43:04] Jenny Anderson: I haven't thought about that in the past because there are times where I'll go into a space and sit in someone's dressing room and we'll just chat. And I'll be like, oh, crap, I have to take photos. We have to stop talking. But I'm excited. I'm nervous because I am going to be doing interviews and my face is going to be out there and I'm going to have to speak eloquently about my work and my life, which actually I'm able to do. But I'm also, it's crazy, like having a book of your work and I'm not that old yet, but still having a collection of everything I've done in the last 18 years is what a feat, what a thing to have done and be recognized. It's pretty incredible. My dad gave me this book when I was in high school.

It's called The Mississippians, and it's just a book of famous Mississippi artists, writers, performers. There's a lot of people like Shay Till and Oprah and William Faulkner, all these incredible people came out of Mississippi. He gave me that book for Christmas and in the lining of the book, he wrote, you'll be in here one day. Oh, God. And I was just like, oh, that's what a thing to say. And of course, at the moment, I was like, OK, dad, you're my dad and you think these things, but I don't know, it's starting to look a little like maybe that is true. And it's just cool. And I can't quite wrap my head around it.