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[0:00] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Hello and welcome to the Drama Book Show where we bring you conversations with writers, artists and theater professionals whose work helps shape the world of live performance. My name is Mark Eugene Garcia. In this episode, we explore the power of storytelling to preserve history, honor personal experiences, and bring forgotten voices to the stage. We're joined by playwright and performer Deborah Jean Templin for a conversation about Unsinkable Women, Stories and Songs from the Titanic, her solo play that explores the lives of nine women who experienced the sinking of the Titanic and the ways that historic tragedies shaped their lives in the years that followed. Through vivid monologues and historical songs, Templin brings these women's stories of resilience, transformation and hope to the stage.

Moderated by veteran dramaturge, writer and creative executive Ken Cerniglia, this conversation explores the process of transforming history into theater and the importance of sharing the voices and experiences that continue to resonate today. So here's Deborah Jean Templin and Ken Cerniglia live at the Drama Book Shop.

[1:25] Ken Cerniglia: Thank you all for coming tonight to 39th Street and finding it. And I'm so excited that Deborah Jean asked me to moderate this evening because we met around the time she started working on the show like almost 30 years ago. But yes, no, we're going to start tonight with Deborah Jean reading the beginning of the show and our first character that we meet in Unsinkable Women.

[1:48] Deborah Jean Templin: No introductions, no names. Just call me the girl on the bicycle. Oh yes, I was there. But I don't want to go back to that era. You think it was all so romantic. The great houses, the horse-drawn carriages, the grandies in their tarpats, a golden age. Oh, contraire. There was no penicillin, no antibiotics. People died terribly young from cholera, tuberculosis. In childbirth, women belonged to their husbands as property. So much for the romance of 1912. There was a lot of money though. $400 for first class tickets. I could live for half a year on that kind of money. There were vast sums of money being thrown around by a very few. Men, of course. Men, money, ego. That's what created Titanic. Titanic.

It was all anyone talked about. Now, I'd read the advertisements for Titanic, how it was the fastest, fanciest, grandest, about to embark on her maiden voyage. So, I got on my bicycle and rode down to the Southampton docks to have a look. The first thing I noticed was the sea of people. People preparing for the voyage. People saying goodbye. People trying to remember where they had left what they forgot to bring. There were separate gangways for first, second, and third class passengers. Mothers, fathers, servants, children. There were vehicles jamming the street onto the wharf. One group of lorries was unloading luggage onto dollies. Luggage with gleaming embossed leather with gold clasps. Piece after piece.

Twenty in all. Same set. It all belonged to one person. Then, I looked up at a fortress of steel. Four football fields long. Eleven stories high. You couldn't see the top deck or the smokestacks. The largest ship ever built. Titanic was so carefully, so brilliantly designed, it couldn't be taken down. It was unsinkable. If it hit an iceberg head on. But that's not what happened. The iceberg gashed a hole in the starboard side. The sea poured in and the ship was down in an hour and a half. Everyone wants to know about the grandeur, the menu, the decor of the ship. I don't know. I can't tell you how many palms there were in the palm court. What I remember are the people. I'm not talking about the captains of industry. I think you know where I stand on them. No. I'm talking about the other people. The women, like me, whose lives would be changed forever. They're what I remember.

[6:33] Ken Cerniglia: Thank you for that. This is a really good introduction to a play. How do you open a world? How do you bring the audience in, in this character that you created to help the audience go back in time and figure out who are we going to talk about? Why are we talking about it? And I got chills all over again. Thank you for starting our conversation with that. We get to talk about process now, which is my thing. From idea to finished product, which is now sharing with the world so other people can do the play. What inspired you to write this play, Deborah Jean?

[7:05] Deborah Jean Templin: I'm so glad you asked him. Let's go back to the beginning. Of course I asked the question you asked me to ask you. The very beginning. It's a very good place to start. In 1998, I auditioned for a little musical called Titanic. I was cast as the swing in Titanic. My partner, Ron Schwinn, said, Deborah, that's the hardest job in show business. I said, but it's Titanic and it's wonderful music. Okay. I took the job. So I toured the United States for 21 months with the musical Titanic covering seven parts. And it was like riding with the rodeo, but you don't always get to go on the horse because it's only if somebody's sick. And so my job was to know my lines, my blocking, my music, the harmonies.

And in the stage manager's office was a box of books. And then watching the show for over 700 performances, there's this part, may this embracing replace forever, keep us together ever more. And they're separated. And act three to me was always what happened to the women in the lifeboats? What happened to their lives afterwards? So the music, the score, it was a privilege to watch everyone's performance in that musical. But I kept thinking, what about act three? And this is act three.

[8:43] Ken Cerniglia: So you had this question, what about, and didn't exist in this musical you were touring with for two years. So where does one start when one has this question about what about act three, what happened to the women? And did you first say, I'm curious myself as a human being to find out, or that history hasn't been told? Or like, where do you start something like that? I'm going to write a play, or I'm going to find out some answers.

[9:06] Deborah Jean Templin: When you see Titanic, there are a lot of men talking. There are a lot of men talking. And being a woman, I wanted the women to have more to say. And I know they were saying things on the scenes that you never see. And then I thought, then they wouldn't have anybody to talk to after. So I started to explore.

[9:32] Ken Cerniglia: Did you start imagining those conversations while you were on tour? Like, well, there's that, and then they went off. And then what did they say, writing it down?

[9:36] Deborah Jean Templin: I had a lot of time. I was the insurance policy for the Titanic.

[9:45] Ken Cerniglia: Absolutely. Yes. And such a good one.

[9:47] Deborah Jean Templin: Sometimes when we were in Chicago, I was preparing to do six different people who were going to come in late because of the snowstorm, but they all got there. So I had my Bible for each character, and I was ready. Someone said I was a rock. But when I got a chance to think, what if they had a whole monologue? What if these people said more than what they say in the play? Who were these people? What did they do afterwards? So when we were in Boston, which has a lot of people who were in the Titanic, Boston and Philadelphia, I went to the Widener Library at Harvard, which was given by Eleanor Widener in honor of her son, the Harry Elkins Widener Library at Harvard. And without the library at Harvard, we probably wouldn't have Facebook.

What can I tell you? Then there's a bookstore in Philadelphia where Harry Widener bought his books. When I kept touring after Titanic, I did Mamma Mia, and we opened Mamma Mia in Providence. And I wanted to go to Newport because I wanted to go to the mansion where Madeline Astor was married. I wanted to do all this site-specific theater so I could just imagine, what if I was 18 years old marrying a 46-year-old man and the richest guy in town? What would that be like? And where was this place? And so that's in the play. And when I was in Denver with Titanic, I went to Molly Brown's house, and I went, but why were they separated? Why wasn't she with J.J. Brown? I thought, Harv Fresnel was so cute when he was in that play, and Debbie Reynolds did such a great job.

Why weren't they together? Why didn't they have to split up? But I saw the way they decorated. They were very different people. And I learned a lot. There is something called site-specific research. So I did a lot of site-specific research. And sometimes when I was in the audience, because I would watch the show if I wasn't on, I'd let them know, okay, I'm going in the lobby or whatever. And sometimes it was in Arizona. I met a man who knew a man who said, I'm a doctor, and I knew another doctor who was a doctor for Ida Strauss, and she had MS. Now that's not, I can't absolutely prove that. This is rumor. But if Ida Strauss had MS and she knew she wasn't getting better, maybe they didn't know what MS was.

There are all kinds of myths. She did stay with her husband on deck, but she gave her coat and blanket to her maid and she survived. So that's why Ida Strauss is in the play because it's more for her maid, Ellen, who actually survived. So there were lots of, sometimes in where I was in Memphis, Tennessee, I love libraries. I love books. This is like a temple to me. And I'm so grateful to be at the drama bookshop and grateful for Lin-Manuel Miranda. I was bereft when it's closed during the pandemic and to be back in this beautiful temple of books. They're beautiful temples of books all over this country. And in Memphis, I found a book about Madeline Astor and I'd go into the libraries and ask for help. And I'd love, so I, the National Tour of Titanic and the National Tour of Mamma Mia gave me great access to the wonderful libraries we have in this country.

[13:17] Ken Cerniglia: Let's back up a little bit because you're talking about your curiosity as an actor.

[13:22] Deborah Jean Templin: There's a swing, someone who gets to watch the show so much. Always be ready to go on as you're the rock. When did your curiosity as an actor trying to, and a human, trying to fill in these gaps of what wasn't present in this great musical, these women's voices, when did you shift over from curious to I'm gonna write a play? When did that happen? And I know that you did some research before and after but like at a certain point like it's not just like my own curiosity but I'm gonna now have a project and you're gonna start to fill in some pieces. There's a wonderful woman, may she rest in peace, Lillian Potter and she was my first ever landlady. I was working at Trinity Rep in Providence and we were in Providence with Titanic and she at that point in her life was in a she said I'm living in a nursing home which is like a assisted living facility that's just kind of like the Titanic in Providence and I went oh so I went to visit her and she said we need I swam in the pool I stayed with her we were like girlfriends it was like fabulous and they said you should do something Debra Jean, you should do something you tell us more about the Titanic and one of the first times I did it I had thought about these monologues and then I actually performed it for people who lived on the Titanic but in land and they really liked it and then they were all smart people they were unused resources and then I knew where I wanted to go and develop other characters you started with some monologues you started writing monologues you had some ideas for people that you wanted to represent who didn't have either who were mentioned in the play but didn't have enough to say you had other questions and you sued them so you started writing these monologues and sharing them how did you decide like which which people how did you decide on who you wanted to represent you wanted to hear from more and how you were going to give them voice there there was a lot of material there.

[15:17] Deborah Jean Templin: There were a lot of materials to go through the women in the show are the girl on the bicycle is a composite character and there wasn't anybody second or third class it's hard to find out things about second or third class. One of the great things when I was first thinking about putting this show on its feet I have to say I was very grateful to James Morgan who is here tonight of the York Theatre Company because he gave me a opportunity to do a developmental musical evening December 17th of 2000 and one of the things he said to me he said it would make it a lot easier if you added a Titanic expert that would come and I said what do you so I went to the okay so I went to the South Street Seaport Museum and met Norman Broward who had written a book about ships etc and then he said why don't you why don't you talk to Walter Lord and I went Walter Lord who wrote A Night to Remember is he still alive and he said he's in the phone book and Mrs. Potter and all the people in Providence were older than me and they had a lot of insight and so ding-a-ling-a-ling hello is this Walter Lord this is his assistant right now and yes Mr. Lord there's someone here to speak to you and then I got an invitation to come and he I told him about my problem about finding more things out about third class second class people and he had Parkinson's at that time he was in his library in a hospital bed with a lovely aide and I said what do I do about the third class in the second class he said use your imagination.

[17:16] Deborah Jean Templin: And in his sunken living room next to his bedroom the library and then there was a sort of living room there were mementos that people had given him that he had interviewed in the early 50s so he actually got to interview actual survivors of the Titanic and one of the things that was in his living room was a little pig that you could twist its tail and it was a musical pig and that pig was aboard the lifeboat and it helped the children it made them not cry so there were a lot of little things in his living room and then in 2002 Walter died and then quite a bit later maybe 2012 I read that those objects were given to the Titanic Museum I believe in Southampton but they were given to a museum but you saw them first I did see them first and Walter loved boats and he was a historical fiction writer and he really liked these pictures my friend Ron Schwinn took of me as Madeline Astor and he asked me to sing for him and I did and I signed a photograph hey it's why people go to musical theatre they like the girls what can I say so I was I am I could I still play an 18 year old if I guess I could yeah with the right light I could use your imagination you use your imagination now that's fantastic.

[19:00] Deborah Jean Templin: And so we touched just a little bit for those who aren't familiar with A Night to Remember what it is A Night to Remember is a historical fiction novel based on everything that happened that night and it used to be required reading in some schools it's a wonderful book. There is a movie actually there's no lack of movies or plays about the Titanic but there was since the Titanic right after the Titanic there was a silent film with the Titanic every decade there has been a major motion picture about the Titanic in the 50s it was in the early 50s it was A Night to Remember and when you see the blockbuster Titanic the way people are lined up they took definitely actually Mr. Lord was still alive then and he was a consultant on the movie yeah for James Cameron for James Cameron yes yes you're participating not just in history but along lineage of fiction of also imagining the things that we don't know right there's as much history and evidence is there too but like we don't know all the stories and and you're working on this musical and you're like ah there's still some stories missing so you're filling in you're adding to this canon of imagination about the Titanic.

[20:09] Deborah Jean Templin: Nora is a character in my play and we talked about this 15 years ago but who cares we we thought Nora could be a good conduit she could be a leader Nora this musical performer coming to work in vaudeville could be the person that leads you through the show and then she became the end of the first act and then Molly Brown starts the second act but one of the reasons I wanted to put a character like Nora the musical performer is because I sing and we think of ships it wasn't a Disney cruise they were not like singers dancers and it was all male musicians and in fact there were male waiters so really so I made a I that's really where I had to use my imagination it was a young lady in the play it's a young lady who's kind of got a crush on Wallace Hartley and and he tells her there won't be having any sing-alongs in first and second class so she's not going to get a job anyway but she really likes Wallace Hartley so she can tell the story of the musicians and how things were there's so much more to tell about musicians just to say that after they died they still have to pay for their uniforms they had uniforms that they paid for and when the ship went down they were sent bills for the uniforms you'd think there'd be some insurance policy for that you'd think so but the one person who did collect more insurance than anyone else was a woman by the name of Charlotte Drake Cardeza not Cardoza, Cardoza is a character that's in Titanic but so that they combined different characters there but she had a list of everything she had on the Titanic with how much it cost and she did collect the most insurance of anyone from the Titanic.

[22:04] Deborah Jean Templin: All right so let's back up a little bit can you look at the list of characters yes please so who are the characters in this play and you're writing this play and you're going to play all the characters yourself this is a one person show initially Debra Jean's playing all of these characters so tell us who ultimately made the cut out of everyone you could have picked and who were actual people okay and who are characters you made up the first character that I read to you is a composite character a kind of Frankenstein composite character the girl on the bicycle Eleanor Widener's a real person Margarita Daisy Corning Spedding otherwise name is otherwise known as Daisy Spedding is a real person and who is she just tell us a little bit about who these these characters are Eleanor Widener endowed the gave the Widener library at Harvard she also made sure that anyone that went to the hill school had to take swimming classes because she was convinced that if her son had been able to swim he would have been saved and it's folklore that people at Harvard needed to learn to swim too but I believe it's the hill school anyway and her mansion still exists but it really needs help so if you want to get a good piece of real estate and fix it up okay Daisy Spedding is from New York she survived her husband survived and her child survived and Daisy Spedding wrote a book two years after the Titanic sinking called Polar the Titanic Bear and that was one of the books that the stage manager had and I was thrilled with this book and so I called Leighton Coleman III who wrote the book who was a relative of Daisy Spedding and I said I'm writing this play and I'm putting your ancestor in it and he was thrilled and he has become a friend and I learned quite a few more things because he's got quite a great collection of Titanic information he lives on the north shore he wasn't able to be here tonight but he he's a costume designer and I said my costumes were not designed by Leighton but there's time okay inspired by Leighton.

[24:18] Deborah Jean Templin: That's right Violet Jessop survived it was a stewardess she survived three sinkings and she kept going on to be a stewardess and she published her book wasn't published till much later and I she was Irish by birth but she was raised in Latin America then came back so did she have an Irish accent probably not do I use an Irish accent in the show yes because we don't want to talk the same for every character you can make those choices Margaret Brown if you don't know who Molly Brown is watch the movie no unthinkable Molly Brown with Debbie Reynolds I got to meet Debbie Reynolds my partner in life worked with her and Irene I met Debbie Reynolds and Carrie Fisher and but more than that I really love seeing the house in Denver and just that spirit and also I love Molly Brown because she's a country girl and I grew up on a dairy farm and it was like if she could do it I sure as hell can it she gave me courage so I was really excited to read more about Molly Brown.

[25:31] Deborah Jean Templin: Marie Racine Cardeza is the daughter-in-law of the Cardeza that I spoke of who collected more insurance money than anyone else she was the sort of Philadelphia person that you gave money to people you knew like when she died she gave money to her butler or her driver or me but what she wasn't philanthropic exactly she gave all the money to her son and daughter-in-law and what they did with the money was really extraordinary they suffered from some of the I'll tell you about it later it's about what these women did afterwards with their philanthropic efforts where it was extraordinary and then there's Madeline Forrest Astor she's 18 years old bride of John Jacob Astor there's a book about her now that's out it's called The Other Mrs. Astor or The Second Mrs. Astor and then there's Ida Strauss and you'd have to be under a rock to not know but big it's okay I'm not we're not that far from Macy's and the people Ida Isidore Strauss owned Macy's.

[26:45] Deborah Jean Templin: He said to me, my grandma did not speak with a German accent. I said, artistic license. Then there's Ida Strauss, and then Molly Brown comes back at the end, an epilogue to say what happened with all these people towards the end. Then, interspersed, there's music in the show. It's all stories and songs. To cap that off, what I find really amazing about the play is that you are relating or imagining what happened to these women during this voyage, that they survived, and then what that meant to their lives after. To survive such a huge tragedy, and you give a lot of different points of view about that through the lens and bodies of women. I was very touched when I met Ida's descendant, and I was very touched when I met Leighton.

When he took me to the train, he said, I don't want anything to happen to you because I want Daisy to live. I want Daisy to live with somebody else doing it. It's good material. It's not trashy. It's not trashy. It's not trashy at all. It's really fantastic. Why this moment is so great is that you've owned this play and these portrayals for so long, and now you're going to share it with other people to take it to the next level to share these stories more. Please talk about the music. It's not just a series of monologues. You're also telling the story with music. You have a collaborator.

[28:43] Deborah Jean Templin: The music you heard when you came in is the music that plays before the show. It's getting people in the mood. It's not rap music. It's the music that was played on pianos. Everybody had a piano, like Meet Me in St. Louis and Judy Garland singing I Love a Piano or whatever. People would sit down with a piano, and there would be stacks of sheet music, and everybody would play. See, Colby Sachs and I, Chuck, hello, went through a lot of music, and we had to figure out, now, I play all these characters, and I did it so that all I'd have to do was just take one rap off, put a wig on, and I'd be another character. So each of the costume changes, each of the transitions are done within 15 seconds.

So that is underscored by music. So it's a little ballet, and maybe once upon a time I saw a quick change artist on Ed Sullivan, and it really made an impression on me back in Minnesota. Changing from one character to another is interesting. Body centers are interesting. How you hold yourself when you're 18 is different than how you hold yourself when you're 63, and that is what an actor does. So that's the transformation that audiences see in that, and then I speak. Everything in the show is from the Titanic era, and when I started to tour the show, Bill said, well, we want a CD. We got a CD. We put it down. The magical fingers of C. Colby Sachs and his wonderful research, and he's in the BMI Workshop, etc. We're both members of the Dramatist Guild, and I appreciate his collaboration.

Yes, so thank you for that, and you can also license the music. You can license the music. When people want to license the play, they get the play, and then they get the music. I've done it at 160 venues over the past 25 years, and so when the Girl Scouts in Wyoming don't have the right music, they can just get the CD and work with it because we want it to be accessible for high schools and community theaters and colleges, and at the bookstore, it could be under monologues. It could be under plays. I bet Dramatic Publishing even lets you just stream the tracks. You don't even need the plastic CD.

[31:12] Ken Cerniglia: Oh, that's true. Probably. And you were there when we did a reading with nine women.

[31:18] Deborah Jean Templin: Yes, but I do want to get to that. I do want to ask you, though, that this is being published now, but you've been developing it for a quarter century, this play, and it evolved over time. You're putting it down and doing this definitive version now, but you changed it all the way through your 100-plus performances. It's probably gone through 17 revisions. Have you performed the play once per year since the Titanic sank?

[31:44] Deborah Jean Templin: Not since the Titanic. If you add it all up, come on, no, but that's 113. How many did you say you've done it?

[31:55] Deborah Jean Templin: Okay, 2012 was the 100th anniversary, and I did get a lot of bookings out of it. Yeah, but how many times have you done it? How many times have you performed it?

[32:01] Deborah Jean Templin: 160 times.

[32:02] Ken Cerniglia: 160, so way more than one per year since the Titanic sank.

[32:06] Deborah Jean Templin: Exceeded. I would say I didn't do it during the pandemic. We had enough going on.

[32:12] Ken Cerniglia: We did. So tell me, give me three stories of your experience doing it 160 times.

[32:17] Deborah Jean Templin: My favorite one. Your favorite ones, yes. What did you learn about the play? I was approached about, would you like to go on a boat over the Titanic in the middle of the Atlantic on April 15th, 2012? Wouldn't that be fun? And I went, no. Pass. I would much rather be in the middle of America, because that's where I'm from. And I went to Des Moines, Iowa, and I performed two shows a day for over a thousand school children, and there was a Q&A, and my favorite was, were you on the Titanic? And then I knew my job here was done.

[33:02] Ken Cerniglia: Did you actually perform on the anniversary, the centennial, on April 15th, 2012?

[33:06] Deborah Jean Templin: Yes.

[33:07] Ken Cerniglia: Not in the middle of the ocean, but somewhere else.

[33:09] Deborah Jean Templin: No. There's something called the APAP, and right now, actually tomorrow, it's been going on for more than 60 years. The first person to see the show in real life was a man by the name of John Adams, and he is related to our president. He is no longer with us. But he went, Deb, I like the show. I like the show, Deb, but it needs production values. So John Adams paid for all the costumes to be designed, to get the music together, book the show, and off we went. That's John Adams.

[33:48] Ken Cerniglia: Yeah, which really was the leap ahead for you, because you hadn't done that level of self-production. You needed help, support, and also you did the play in a trunk, right? You travel with a trunk, like a steamer trunk, and the music, and you, and then sometimes an accompanist, but sometimes the crowd, right?

[34:05] Deborah Jean Templin: What I thought I'd do this show was, the first time I did the show, I did it in Ketchikan, Alaska, because my Aunt Carmen was an Alaska pioneer, may she rest in peace, and she wanted me to do it as a benefit for women in safe houses. So Unsinkable Women has done work for women in battered women housing. It's also been sometimes, just the title, Unsinkable Women. Planned Parenthood in Florida needed some help, so depending upon who you are and who booked me, it's been used for that. But in Ketchikan, it takes a long time to get there, and then they said it was so great, and then they said, could you do it for the high school? And I said, yes, but if I do it for the high school, could you help me with a study guide? And they came up with great questions for the study guide, as did the teachers in Iowa.

[35:58] Deborah Jean Templin: Oh gosh, I did it, in 2012, I did it in Spearfish, South Dakota, and I forgot to, no one, they said, it's really high, and you get altitude sickness when you're that high, and that was special, and when I went to see Mount Rushmore, Michelle Obama was there with her daughters.

[36:17] Ken Cerniglia: That's cool.

[36:18] Deborah Jean Templin: I told her that I was doing this show, which is fun. That's amazing, because you've traveled all over the place, doing this show, but it's also settled in, like audience responses, audience questions, and when you have this opportunity to now share it with other people to do it, you have a lot of experience, a lot of experience going into this.

[36:39] Deborah Jean Templin: I will be very interested to see who does the play, how they do it, if they want to do it with a cast of thousands, have at it. Do some music.

[36:50] Ken Cerniglia: And you have really nice recommendations in here based on just your experience. A lot of times, playwrights write a play, they're not necessarily performing it, but you have, both you've written it, based on extensive research, you're participating in this grand history of storytelling about Titanic, and as a theater artist and performer, you've got now all of this advice to give, and also what kind of freedom. It's been wonderful watching you own it and love it, and now wrap it up to give it away.

[37:20] Deborah Jean Templin: And my assistant, my associate, when I put the play together, Britta Joy Peterson, is a dancer, a choreographer, and director, and she said, you don't have to put every little thing, or the stage directions, give them some freedom. And she brought up a lot of really interesting topics to me that I hadn't thought about, and I feel like the play breathes, and it can work.

[37:54] Ken Cerniglia: Yeah, and I did have this privilege of, when she directed, she gathered nine young women to read it and divide up all the characters, which is the first time, because I'd seen you do it, I don't know, like 10 times at least, in different places, and see that response and written as a one-person show, but now I'm like, oh, it could be done by different people, and then we got to hear it, and got to hear these young women who weren't there like you were when the Titanic sank, and they're like, what? And they had the questions, but they also, because of good writing, they tapped into these women, and it's really interesting, and now 113 years later, they're still relevant stories, they were still tapping into it.

[38:33] Deborah Jean Templin: I said, you audition for something, and you go like, wow, I'm playing the Empress of China, why? Because I thought you could do it. Yeah. This is your part, look it up, I'm not going to tell you anything else about it. They decided on their accents, they looked it up, and then they said, could we have the music, we'd like to have the sheet music, and they sang everything, and these are all women between the ages of 15 and 22.

[39:06] Ken Cerniglia: Yeah.

[39:07] Deborah Jean Templin: And it was fun for them to play somebody older.

[39:09] Ken Cerniglia: For sure, and the additional thing that I hadn't seen, because you did all the characters yourself, which is some kind of wonder, anytime you see actors playing multiple roles, you're like, oh my gosh, this is the craft, right? But then we saw those young women who I didn't know, so I just got introduced to them performing these characters, but what was also cool, which doesn't happen when one person's doing it, is you got to watch them watch each other, and that sort of witness of these women's stories in an ensemble, I'm like, oh, there's a whole other level of what's happening, unsinkable women, like unsinkable women in one woman's body, but unsinkable women in these new 21st century young women's bodies was a whole other amazing impact, just to be a witness watching them do it.

[40:06] Deborah Jean Templin: And may I say, I loved the musical, Suffs.

[40:08] Ken Cerniglia: Yeah?

[40:09] Ken Cerniglia: It's a real exciting thing for a lighting designer to be part of. And lighting's become a little bit more exciting. When I was down in Florida, Mariana, Florida, they said, do you want ocean in the back? And they went, and there it was. Like, how'd you do that? It was some LED something magic. Like, I thought, yes. I realized that in the 25 years since I've been doing it, it's different. I'm not a lighting designer, but it's exciting. And then in terms of the costumes, you could do it with long skirts and you could do it Reader's Theater with turtlenecks and boa and oar. You could have people really learn how to do the costumes from the Gilded Age and Downton Abbey and find their grandmother's clothes and do it.

[40:59] Deborah Jean Templin: Yeah, you could do that higher production value, but I've seen you do it in a senior center, in a rec room, and the stories hold their own. It's just a person telling stories, and you're in it. It could be the ocean behind you, or you could just imagine the ocean.

[41:16] Deborah Jean Templin: The hats, when I played Grace Farrell in Annie, hats were by Woody Shelp. And Woody wasn't with us anymore, but his assistant did my hats. And sometimes it takes a village, it takes more than that to do a show. And there's so many craftspeople and artists. And that intermission is really for people to say, oh, yeah, that was how my grandma did it. Or when I went to the Belfast Museum, or I saw that exhibit, and I think I've been to four Titanic exhibits. And you'll see it, you go and you have to put your hands against a block of ice, and then you realize how cold it really was. But for me, the lace-up character shoes I wore in Titanic, I still wear today. Yes, I do. Because when you leave a big show, they give you your shoes, because they really can't give them to anybody else. And I have very big feet, and these shoes are fabulous. So they're magic shoes. They're not the red shoes.

[42:17] Tim Cynova: So the shoes don't come with licensing the play?

[42:19] Deborah Jean Templin: No, they don't.

[42:19] Tim Cynova: No, just the music.

[42:20] Deborah Jean Templin: But I do think, nor do the corsets.

[42:24] Tim Cynova: Bring your own corset.

[42:25] Deborah Jean Templin: Bring your own corset. But it's not any, tailored clothes are not what people wear anymore. And when you have to put yourself in that, then you move differently. And if you're doing The Importance of Being Earnest in high school, which is a flawless comedy, it becomes more flawless if you could have the right undergarments too.

[42:47] Tim Cynova: Fantastic. I know you have one more monologue, but I know some people in the audience will have questions. So we can take a few questions, and then we'll do your final performance, but before you sign books. Does anyone have questions? Because I have 20 more, but I figured I'd be sharing. Yes, sir. And I'll repeat your question on the mic, because this is a podcast.

[43:07] Tim Cynova: So we all obviously know Madeline Astor, Ida Strauss, I live near her park, Molly Brown from the other musical. Do you have any favorite women who made it into the play, who you discovered in your research, who weren't the women who you were in Titanic thinking, what would they have to say?

[43:24] Deborah Jean Templin: Yes. So the question is, who are the additional women you found in your research who weren't characters in Titanic the musical, where you encountered this the first time?

[43:40] Deborah Jean Templin: Violet Jessup is not in Titanic the musical, and she deserves a play all of her own, I think.

[43:49] Tim Cynova: And where did you discover her?

[43:51] Deborah Jean Templin: I discovered her, there was a book that came out about 2000, 1999, 2000. We were doing a Broadway Cares, Equity, Fights, Aids, Benefit, and we did a couple of things, and somebody read something from the book, and I went, wow, who is she? And I had the time to read the whole book, even though it was like, we had stewardesses, stewardess Hutchins was in Titanic, and stewardess Robertson, but there was no Violet Jessup. There were other people that I discovered, but it almost became like, that could be a movie. There were plenty of people who never spoke of the Titanic, just like we discover you might have an uncle or a father that was in World War II, and he doesn't speak of it, never spoke of it.

So there were plenty of people that never spoke of it. And during the past 25 years, whenever there's a little something in the newspaper about somebody that died from the Titanic, you go like, oh, that person would have been interesting. Or there were a lot of people in third class, I kind of wanted to do the Chicago thing, like have somebody not speak English, not maybe not Hungarian, I could have done German. But just there were a lot of people. In the beginning was the word, and that's a biblical phrase. But people who spoke and put things in the newspapers, the people who got interviewed, like we're being interviewed now, you do have to use your voice. We all need to use our voice to be heard. And so these voices that came up through my research are the people that ended up in the book play.

[45:41] Ken Cerniglia: And they appealed to you too, right?

[45:42] Deborah Jean Templin: They appealed to me.

[45:43] Ken Cerniglia: You're a human, so they're all filtered through you.

[45:45] Deborah Jean Templin: Exactly.

[45:46] Ken Cerniglia: And what was important to you at the time when you're writing and to other people as you were testing out some of the material, and what comes up, there's a nice, it's a nice, even though you have composite characters, I think the assembly of this ensemble of women does tell a full story. It's not every story, there are some things left out, but at least you can imagine, gosh, who else, right?

[46:06] Deborah Jean Templin: There's just some things about these women, they're part of me. When I hear the music that Chuck created, the pre-show music, sometimes I have something really important to do, I go, I think I'll put on the pre-show music because it's beautiful, and it's simple, and it's not the news. And it's just a melody and a piano, and I know who played it. So Chuck doesn't even know I think about him that much.

[46:33] Ken Cerniglia: So much.

[46:34] Deborah Jean Templin: But I do.

[46:34] Ken Cerniglia: So much. Any other questions for Deborah Jean?

[46:37] Tim Cynova: Yes, sir.

[46:44] Deborah Jean Templin: I'm still performing the show. In fact, the last time I did the show was at Texas A&M in March. I had been there in 2012, this is 2025, and they said, we'll have to have you back again. And I went, hope you don't wait so long. But it was really great. And I performed in Terre Haute, Indiana. And that person who booked me had seen me in 2008. And it took her until 2025 to book me.

[47:20] Tim Cynova: Better late than never.

[47:22] Deborah Jean Templin: Still available. I'm super curious to see when you go out and see some of these licensed productions, other people doing it, how that's going to inform the next time you do it.

[47:31] Ken Cerniglia: I would like that. Michael Colby.

[47:40] Tim Cynova: When is your next production? Closer to New York.

[47:42] Deborah Jean Templin: I've been so excited about this podcast that all I have prepared for is to be talking to you tonight. So I don't have any bookings, but I know God will provide.

[47:57] Ken Cerniglia: And when this podcast comes out, you're going to have to get a secretary.

[48:00] Deborah Jean Templin: Yeah, I do have a manager, and there was an inquiry from somebody from Nebraska. And I will go. I will go. And I met a lovely woman in the bookshop from China. And she just...

[48:18] Ken Cerniglia: She's going to bring you?

[48:18] Deborah Jean Templin: I said, well, I just said, I've always wanted to go to China.

[48:21] Ken Cerniglia: You have the boots. You have the boots.

[48:24] Deborah Jean Templin: I've got the boots.

[48:25] Ken Cerniglia: We'll travel, yeah.

[48:26] Deborah Jean Templin: Boots will travel.

[48:28] Ken Cerniglia: Will you share this final monologue with us?

[48:30] Deborah Jean Templin: I have one more monologue to share with you. And I just want to make sure.

[48:36] Ken Cerniglia: Okay.

[48:37] Deborah Jean Templin: She still does know the show, by the way. I just asked her to read it because we want you to see this, buy the book. So she signs it.

[48:44] Ken Cerniglia: Yeah.

[48:46] Deborah Jean Templin: My name is Ida Strauss. Each year in the spring, my husband, Isidore and I, would go to the Cote d'Azur, French Riviera, because we love the smells and the food. Not too many creamy sauces. Just right. Our son, Jesse, was taking care of Macy's department store at busy Herald Square. Our store had been doing business since 1902. We had a place in Switzerland and one on the Rhine. But when we heard we could book passage on the most remarkable ship in the world, we went. Our favorite steward was aboard. He told us he would make sure we had a wonderful trip. And we did. Isidore and I sent our son, Jesse, a message. And we actually heard back from him. Heard back from him. To be connected from so far away was the miracle of the Marconi telegraph.

We were very happy that night. The sky was black velvet. And the stars sparkled so bright. The Big Dipper pointing our way to the North Star. It is always good to know which way north is. Then you always know where you are. We had seven children and grandchildren as well. We had a very full life. When the ship hit the iceberg, we were called on the boat deck. I was to get into the lifeboat with my maid. The lifeboat looked so small from the height of the ship. I had been with Isidore for 38 years. I could not imagine him by himself at the rail looking for me in the black waters. So I gave my lamb's wool coat and a blanket to my maid Ellen. And she got in the lifeboat. Then Isidore and I sat down on two deck chairs and found the North Star. Looking at all the stars. Soon we became part of them.

[52:08] Ken Cerniglia: And we are back. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Drama Book Show. Our thanks to Deborah Jean Templin and Ken Cerniglia for sharing their insights into the creation of Unsinkable Women, stories and songs from the Titanic, and the art of bringing historical stories to life through theatre. Through its exploration of nine women who lived through the Titanic disaster, the play highlights resilience, strength, and the enduring power of personal storytelling. Coming up next on the Drama Book Show, we'll dive into the world of Irish Goodbye, the first installment of playwright Tom Dugan's critically acclaimed Jersey Pub trilogy. Set in a small New Jersey pub on a lonely Christmas Eve, this dark comedy follows the unlikely connection between a disgraced cop and an ex-beauty queen as they seek shelter from a winter storm.

We'll be joined by Tom Dugan, moderator Mel Johnson, and performer Annika Petrovic for a conversation about the play, its characters, and the process of bringing this new work to the stage. Follow us on Instagram at Drama Book Show Podcast. Follow us on Eventbrite at Drama Book Show Podcast. All the books we talk about can be found here at the bookshop, and so can we, and we will see you at the bookshop!