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[0:00] David Rigano: Hello, and welcome to The Drama Book Show, where we bring you conversations with the writers, artists, and theatre professionals whose work helps shape the world of live performance.

[0:23] David Rigano: In this episode, we explore the uneasy place between childhood, true crime, violence, and grief through Tori Keenan-Zelt's play, The JonBenét Game.

[0:28] David Rigano: The play follows best friends Molly and Ray, who, when they were 12, created a secret game reenacting the murder of JonBenét Ramsey. Twenty years later, Ray works as a guidance counselor at their former middle school and is determined to leave the past behind. But after Molly's death, their 12-year-old daughter discovers their old playbook, the game resurfaces, and Ray finds herself playing again. The JonBenét Game examines the space that true crime opens up for women to explore the violence and grief that they are not supposed to talk about. We're joined by award-winning playwright and screenwriter Tori Keenan-Zelt, whose plays include The JonBenét Game, How the Baby Died, Seth, Airspace, and Truth Slash Dare.

Joining the conversation is moderator Katy Zapanta, a Filipino-American dramaturg, producer, and theatrical literary agent focused on new work development. The event also features actors Kylie McQuail and Molly Carden. Here are Tori Keenan-Zelt, Katy Zapanta, Kylie McQuail, and Molly Carden live at the Drama Bookshop.

[1:37] Katy Zapanta: I'm Katy.

[1:38] Tori Keenan-Zelt: I'm Tori.

[1:40] Katy Zapanta: And we're just going to start off with a little introduction into the world of the play. And then we're going to set the scene for you. You're quite literally going to hear the scene. And then we're going to have a nice little chat and just have a good Thursday night. Sound good?

[1:53] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yeah.

[1:54] Katy Zapanta: So The JonBenét Game is about two best friends, Molly and Ray, who in the 90s would go into Ray's basement at sleepovers and pretend to murder each other, inspired by the JonBenét Ramsey murder. Fast forward 20 years. Yeah, 20 years. Molly has died. Ray has stayed in the town where they grew up, which is Farmington, Missouri, a rural white evangelical town. And Molly's daughter, Hazel, gets sent back home to live with grandma. So she moves into her mom's old bedroom. And she shows up at Ray's office. Ray is a guidance counselor at the middle school. So the play jumps around in time between those two timelines. But the scene that we're going to hear tonight is from 1996. It's 12-year-old Molly and Ray. And they are in Ray's basement. And you'll hear the brilliant Kylie McQuail and Molly Carden in those roles.

[2:50] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yeah.

[2:51] Katy Zapanta: Hi. Hello.

[3:05] Katy Zapanta: Scene four. The basement of a cinderblock ranch house, Ray's childhood home. Molly and Ray are now 12.

[3:19] Molly: Can we please do something?

[3:21] Ray: We're doing makeovers.

[3:24] Molly: Let's be turtles.

[3:26] Ray: What are you, five?

[3:28] Molly: No.

[3:29] Molly: Come here. Come on. I'll do you.

[3:32] Ray: I don't like getting stuff in my eyes.

[3:34] Molly: I'll just do your mouth.

[3:35] Ray: It tastes like candles.

[3:37] Molly: Stop talking.

[3:39] Molly: She applies lipstick to Ray's lips.

[3:42] Ray: Where'd you get that?

[3:44] Molly: I found it.

[3:45] Ray: Where?

[3:46] Molly: In the bathroom.

[3:48] Ray: My mom's bathroom?

[3:50] Molly: Stop talking.

[3:52] Molly: Put it back.

[3:54] Molly: It's getting all over your face.

[3:56] Ray: I'm serious, Molly. You know how she is.

[3:59] Molly: She's not going to come down.

[4:01] Ray: She could, though.

[4:02] Molly: She could wake up.

[4:04] Molly: She could wake up and have to pee and then suddenly notice that her favorite lipstick is missing.

[4:09] Ray: And I'll have to say that it was all your idea.

[4:12] Molly: Like she'd believe you.

[4:15] Molly: Shh.

[4:16] Molly: I think I hear her.

[4:21] Ray: No, you don't.

[4:22] Molly: Yes, I do.

[4:24] Molly: She's coming.

[4:26] Molly: She's standing right there at the top of the stairs.

[4:30] Ray: What do we do?

[4:32] Molly: It's too late.

[4:34] Molly: There's no escape now.

[4:37] Ray: Oh my god.

[4:38] Molly: Oh my god.

[4:40] Molly: She has the rope.

[4:41] Molly: She ties us to chairs.

[4:43] Molly: Back to back.

[4:44] Molly: Back to back.

[4:45] Ray: But our fingers can touch.

[4:47] Ray: So we talk in Morse code.

[4:49] Molly: I won't break if you won't.

[4:51] Ray: I won't.

[4:52] Molly: I won't.

[4:57] Ray: Wow.

[4:59] Molly: What?

[5:01] Ray: You look really pretty.

[5:03] Molly: No, I don't.

[5:05] Ray: You do.

[5:06] Ray: You look like Jean Benet Ramsey.

[5:09] Molly: Fuck you.

[5:10] Ray: Fuck you.

[5:11] Ray: It's a compliment.

[5:12] Molly: Give me the Kleenex.

[5:13] Ray: It's a good thing.

[5:14] Ray: See?

[5:15] Molly: She holds open a copy of Perfect Murder, Perfect Town.

[5:21] Ray: Where did you get that?

[5:23] Molly: I stole it.

[5:24] Ray: No, you didn't.

[5:26] Molly: From Walmart.

[5:27] Ray: What if someone saw you?

[5:29] Molly: I was a ninja.

[5:31] Ray: They have cameras all over.

[5:34] Molly: And I have a disguise.

[5:36] Molly: Molly holds up the book's picture of Jean Benet as a mask and creeps through an imaginary Walmart.

[5:42] Ray: Takes in Jean Benet's beauty on Molly.

[5:45] Ray: She sneaks a peek at herself in the mirror.

[5:48] Ray: You need a crown, though.

[5:50] Ray: A tiara.

[5:51] Molly: Hold on.

[5:52] Molly: She digs a princess tiara out of the dress-ups and crowns Ray.

[5:56] Molly: I hereby crown you, miss.

[5:58] Ray: Ow.

[5:59] Ray: Hold still.

[6:00] Ray: You're pinching me.

[6:01] Molly: Your head's too big.

[6:02] Ray: Get off.

[6:03] Molly: Fine.

[6:04] Molly: Tries the tiara on her own head.

[6:06] Molly: Now she's Jean Benet.

[6:07] Ray: Let's just be turtles.

[6:10] Molly: No.

[6:11] Molly: You be the judge and you crown me Miss Colorado.

[6:14] Ray: Little Miss.

[6:15] Molly: It's the future.

[6:17] Ray: You're dead.

[6:18] Molly: It's a future where I don't die.

[6:21] Ray: No, wait.

[6:22] Ray: Wait.

[6:23] Molly: It's Little Miss Boulder.

[6:24] Molly: It's my first pageant ever.

[6:26] Molly: And nobody thought I would make it this far, but I proved them all wrong.

[6:29] Molly: And I came from behind to beat everyone out.

[6:31] Molly: And my mom's ugly crying.

[6:33] Ray: Rae, be my mom.

[6:34] Molly: I'm the judge.

[6:35] Ray: No, now you're the mom.

[6:36] Molly: And you're crying because you're so proud of me.

[6:38] Ray: But then, in your speech, you forget to thank Jesus.

[6:41] Molly: So then, I disown you.

[6:43] Ray: No, but it's fine.

[6:44] Ray: I can just come live here.

[6:46] Molly: Yes.

[6:47] Molly: We can make this whole basement an apartment.

[6:49] Ray: Oh, your mom would say yes.

[6:51] Molly: She loves me.

[6:52] Ray: Okay.

[6:53] Ray: She basically wishes I was her daughter.

[6:55] Molly: She doesn't think you're a good influence.

[6:58] Ray: She said that?

[7:00] Molly: Don't worry.

[7:02] Molly: She's not allowed down here.

[7:04] Ray: No one's allowed.

[7:06] Molly: Just us.

[7:07] Ray: Just us.

[7:08] Molly: We'll have to put in a bathroom.

[7:10] Molly: And then we can escape to Chicago.

[7:12] Molly: And then, in the day, it's a detective agency.

[7:14] Molly: We take the first bus out of town.

[7:16] Molly: And that morning, the moment my mom goes to open my door, she sees that my bed's just empty.

[7:22] Molly: And that's when she gets it.

[7:24] Molly: She finally gets it.

[7:26] Ray: I'm so proud of you.

[7:30] Molly: Now you have to discover I'm gone.

[7:36] Ray: Okay, be sad, though.

[7:38] Molly: I am.

[7:39] Ray: You're not crying.

[7:41] Molly: I can't just make myself cry.

[7:43] Ray: I'm gone, Ray.

[7:45] Molly: You lost me.

[7:46] Molly: You threw me away.

[7:47] Molly: And now you're alone.

[7:48] Molly: Completely alone.

[7:49] Molly: Forever and ever.

[7:54] Katy Zapanta: I'm going to ask a little questions of our wonderful playwright. And then we're going to open it up. And you guys will be able to ask your own questions. And we'll all solve the case of JonBenét Ramsey together.

[8:05] Katy Zapanta: Just kidding. But also, not really. What if we figured it out?

[8:10] Tori Keenan-Zelt: That'd be cool.

[8:11] Katy Zapanta: I know, right? It was the brother.

[8:13] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Just kidding.

[8:14] Katy Zapanta: So speaking of you crying.

[8:15] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yes.

[8:16] Katy Zapanta: Tori, with the pop culture fascination of true crime these days, what drew you specifically to the JonBenét Ramsey case?

[8:24] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Oh, I was day one with JonBenét Ramsey.

[8:33] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yeah, she was killed in 1996 when I was not born yet.

[8:38] Tori Keenan-Zelt: No, just kidding. I was in elementary school.

[8:41] Tori Keenan-Zelt: And I was too young to know the details of her murder.

[8:46] Tori Keenan-Zelt: But I saw her face everywhere.

[8:48] Tori Keenan-Zelt: So she's on the news. She's on magazine covers.

[8:52] Tori Keenan-Zelt: And it was always the image, if you know it, of big blonde hair with the crown of baby's breath. And her face is fully made up. And she's six years old. So I'm looking at that, and I was like, that's so beautiful. Maybe I should look like that. But also, I knew something awful had happened to her. So then I was thinking, okay, maybe I should try not to look like that so that I don't get murdered or something.

[9:18] Tori Keenan-Zelt: And, you know, assaulted. Yeah, that's always nice. And abused. Yeah, that would be great.

[9:25] Tori Keenan-Zelt: So I had an opportunity to write a play about true crime for San Francisco Playhouse as a commission. And this was the only one that I wanted to write about because it was part of my attachment to it.

[9:36] Katy Zapanta: Yeah, talk a little bit more about where it came from. And especially with the kind of intergenerational timelines coming in and how you landed on the framing device of these kids playing this game that they've made up.

[9:51] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yeah. A few different places. So one was thinking about the dynamics in my own family in which women of different generations try to teach the younger generations how to survive in the world. So my grandmother was really into true crime. And one of my favorite aunts was too. And my grandmother would walk me through how to escape a trunk. She'd be like, okay, you kick out the taillight. And she opened her trunk and she's like, here's how you do it. And I'm like, yeah. And I wanted to capture that dynamic of how do we teach girls to expect to be victimized in the world.

[10:29] Tori Keenan-Zelt: And then there was this other piece where crime stories offer us a play space where we can cast ourselves in different roles in the story. So when I was a child, I loved to die. Like to pretend to die and kill my friends. And I have talked to a lot of women who did the same thing. And they're like, oh, yeah. Actually, some would play Jean Benet in their basements and tie each other up. And now I murder you. Now you murder me. And yeah, I wanted to write about that.

[10:59] Katy Zapanta: I do think there's a theme in your writing of twisted young women's minds, which I'm obsessed with. But that kind of goes to my next question of this is such a specific topic and specific play, but tell me how it fits in with the rest of the body of your work and what you like writing about.

[11:16] Tori Keenan-Zelt: That's a good question. I always like writing about women, complicated women, and relationships. And a play for me usually starts with something in my life that I'm wrestling with or curious about and don't quite have my arms around. And I talk to people about it and I ask them questions and ask them about their lives. And with this one, it started with the things that I described to you and I started to talk to women about their relationships to true crime. And one in particular told me a story about having grown up in an evangelical community and she wasn't allowed to talk about, she wasn't allowed to wear makeup. She wasn't allowed to talk about sex or beauty or desire unless it were under the framework of violence.

So yeah, that's why she started to consume all of these true crime stories. And when a curiosity in my life comes together with something I'm hearing from someone else and there's a concept frame for it, then I'm like, oh, I have a play. I have another play that's a grand guignol French horror structure called How the Baby Died that's a lot about my complicated feelings about motherhood and whether I want it or not.

[12:38] Tori Keenan-Zelt: To be a mother and the vulnerability of being in a body that can become pregnant. Conversations with other people who are in bodies like that. And then I found Grand Guignol as a genre and I was like, oh, that's what it should be. And yeah, so when those things come together, you can read that play by emailing Katy. I'm just kidding. By emailing Katy Zapanta, by emailing her agent. Yeah. So there's like some kind of genre frame that's different for each play, but the life question stuff is always, yeah. Yeah. So you've got the incredible opportunity to do a rolling world premiere of the play, which for those that do not know, it's through the National New Play Network. Shout out National New Play Network.

And it's the opportunity for it to be done in three different places with three different teams in different moments of time, different locations, and different communities. So tell me a little bit about that process and also what you were able to discover about the play, seeing three different iterations of it and being a part of it in different ways where there are moments that leapt out in one production that you didn't catch in another.

[13:55] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yeah. So it's an amazing opportunity to be able to travel with the play and see three completely different visions for it. The first production was at American Lives Theater in Indianapolis, which is doing great work or small theater and taking really big swings, and they developed the play before they produced it. So I went and workshopped it with them and then got to be there for rehearsal, and their version was very grounded. So as I mentioned, the play jumps around in time, but it's set in one place, and they really got into the design of that space in reality, and they cast it with two adult actors in the roles that you saw in the scene. The role that Molly played is written as an adult, 30-something, and the role that Kylie played is written for a teen, but she has to do a lot of complicated, dangerous stuff.

For the first production, we cast her as a young 20-something, and she did a beautiful job. For the second production, we wanted to see how it would feel to have an adult and someone who's visibly younger doing things that feel intimate and dangerous and to have that in the room for the audience. So the second production was at Unicorn Theater in Kansas City, and we were able to find a gifted young actor who was in ninth grade, and that was interesting to see the difference there. And their concept was completely different. It was like a non-representational set. They had an idea of haunting and shadow, and they did a beautiful sound design with breath work integrated with a score really, and yeah, it was creepy.

It was cool. And then the third production was at Theater Nova in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and that was like a tiny theater, like a one-person operation. The artistic director does almost everything, and that was an amazing opportunity for me to see what happens when I'm not involved until the very end. So I flew in and watched their final dress, and I was like, oh, there's some things I need to change in the script so that I don't have to explain them to people. Yeah, and just to see what happens when I ship it to a team.

[16:04] Katy Zapanta: Is there a moment in the play that you're the most proud of?

[16:09] Tori Keenan-Zelt: I don't know that I'm proud, but I'll say what comes to mind. So there's an epilogue. So the play ends in a moment of connection and possibly healing. I have complicated feelings about it, and it could end there, but I wrote a scene in which Patsy Ramsey comes on stage and justifies herself to the audience, and Jean Benét also appears and asks her about death, asks her mom about death, whether Jean Benét is going to die. And Patsy lies to her and says, no, you're not going to die, not for a very long time. And Jean Benét says, how do you know? And Patsy says, because I'll protect you because that's what mommies do. And I'm not entirely sure where that scene came from, but I kept thinking about cutting it, and I would receive feedback that I should cut it, but it felt like it belonged in the DNA of the play.

It's so much about mothers and daughters and violence and how we do things to try to get safe. And then sometimes those things create violence in themselves. Yeah. So I'm proud that I had the courage to keep that scene. I love it.

[17:34] Katy Zapanta: Yeah. No, and especially just the kind of, not even just mothers, daughters protecting each other, but even with the friends creating this twisted game and also being young women together, it's that innate curiosity about violence, right? But it's also this innate feeling to protect each other. Yeah. And I think that just gets more and more prevalent every day, but yeah, I think this would be a great time to open it up to the audience. If anyone has any questions about Tori and her incredible writing career, if anyone has questions about the play and about if you want to produce it, you totally can. It's super producible. Yeah. I think if we just want to talk about true crime for the next 30 minutes, happy to do that as well.

I have been following the Lindsay Clancy plays so closely. So if we really want to get into women, right. Yeah. And violence and what we expect of women and okay, I can go on forever, but yes, opening it up and we can go ahead and call on some people. Yes. With a bracelet.

[18:39] Audience Member: Hi. Hi. Congratulations.

[18:48] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Thank you. This is a poorly formed question. So it's about conflict and transgressions and when do your spidey senses go off and you know you want to investigate something further?

[18:53] Tori Keenan-Zelt: I love that question. Yeah. I think, okay. So big picture. I grew up in churches, like a lot in churches, pastor's kid, evangelical. And when I come across any kind of dogma, I get mad. And so when I noticed that I have a dogma myself, I want to poke at it and pull at it. And when I think about when I hear stories and in my own life experience, taking actions that shock me, right. Or realizing that I have crossed a line that I didn't know that I crossed, not to quote Wicked. And I'm curious, and that makes me curious about how and why, right? Yeah. I want to push characters into territory that they don't expect to be in. And in this play, it's sexual abuse. And I don't think most people, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think most people are out there. I want to abuse someone, right? Some, but not many. And so I was curious about how a person could find themselves in that role without intending to.

[20:17] Audience Member: Yes. And the glasses. The great glasses.

[20:40] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a great question for your agent to ask. Yeah. I'm rephrasing for the podcast and also something that an agent loves to think about. Sure. How do you think about the logistics and the producibility of a project versus writing what you want to write and, you know, yeah. Not thinking about that other side of it.

[20:57] Tori Keenan-Zelt: I want stuff to get made. So don't we all know, but I really do. I don't want to write things that just exist in my head. I want to see them happen. And I want to put a script as a tool into the hands of people that I want to see succeed and see on stage. So I guess it's lucky that I also really like tight sucker punch stories where every, you have to earn an actor's time, right? Like it's cheaper to produce a three-person play, but also I want each of those actors to really have something amazing to do. So I think, yeah, for me, I'm lucky that those things align, but I will say I've been surprised to hear, I think I write for actors who often don't get opportunities, especially outside of New York.

Yeah. In each of the productions that we did, there are only three roles and they're all central, but I was hearing and seeing, oh, this actress is amazing, but she always is cast off to the side in this bit part or something, or she's a character actress. And I'm like, I want the weirdness. I want to see, I want to center that.

[22:12] Katy Zapanta: Yeah. I think speaking from my side of it is I want you to not worry about that part.

[22:18] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Right. I do. I do where I want people to do my play with some caveats, but I think in my experience, if the stage falls away and trees spring up and a whale falls onto the stage in your play, if someone loves it enough to do it, we're going to find a way to make it happen. Right. But at the end of the day, you can send a play to someone and be like, listen, there's this moment where a whale falls on stage. I don't know how you're going to do it. Read the play and then we can talk about it. And if someone's in love with your voice and your words enough, they're going to find a way to do the things that are impossible on stage and unproducible. And I just think at the end of the day, it's a disservice to the art to tell writers to not write that.

Right. I think you should write what excites you. You should write what you in your head deem impossible and we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. But yeah, your plays are so producible. They're very producible for anyone listening.

[23:27] Audience Member: You're the best. Yes. In the back.

[23:32] Audience Member: Yeah, kind of thinking back on that question, I'm curious about your journey as a playwright. When, I'm sure this varies, but I'm curious about when you feel like your play is done, like you've written it and you're ready to send it off. But also, how do you feel whenever you sort of are hands off, it's in somebody's hands to produce and direct and put it on, or you're not physically involved with that?

[24:00] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Okay, so re-staging for the podcast. I'm trying my best. When do you feel like a play is done and completed? And how do you feel about it being out of your hands in someone else's divorce from it in a way or a step back?

[24:10] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yeah. Never, never.

[24:12] Audience: That's a good answer.

[24:16] Tori Keenan-Zelt: I was like, a play is never done. We were rehearsing this scene today and I had the script and I was changing a line. It's published. I'm not changing any lines. And they read what's published. I just did it for myself. But at a certain point, it takes on its own life, especially as you get into production. And I've had to learn that. My friend, some of you are here, have heard me whine and talk about, they are doing it wrong. But what does that mean? I think, yeah, you just have to let it go. And when you do, there's always delighting surprise in what people bring to it and what they make out of it that I could never have imagined. So I wouldn't get to see that if I insisted on my way each time. But it's always a balance, right? I kind of want my way.

[25:17] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Have you, you were speaking also earlier about the experience of seeing how people put things on when you have varying degrees of involvement in it. And like how you were surprised by some things when you weren't involved. And have you, with the JonBenét Game, have you had, either in your personal life or when you see it out being produced in public, have you had any audience reactions that have like surprised you?

[26:16] Tori Keenan-Zelt: I agree. I am not profiting from this play. You're like, actually, playwriting, there's no profit. There's no profit. Yeah. So there's that. But people who saw the play, I was surprised and delighted to see how in smaller towns, especially, theaters are like churches in a good way. That they bring people together and that they come out into the lobby. And in the lobby here in New York, no one says anything about the play. And you can't. You run down the block and you say it at the bar. They talk in the lobby and they were like, oh, I lost someone in my family who took their own life. And I'm dealing with it and I want to talk about it. Like, you want to talk about it to me? Okay. Yeah. And someone said, they asked me how I knew. They said, how did you know these things that I've thought are these things that have happened in my life? And someone has said to me in these dark spaces, which I couldn't ask for a better response than that.

[27:22] Tori Keenan-Zelt: No, it's interesting. Always people will see what they want to see at first. Right. They'll be outraged by what they want to be outraged by. But I think that's just the beauty of actually taking a risk and going to see something. I think a good play introduces you to parts of yourself that you didn't know existed.

[27:38] Tori Keenan-Zelt: But it's always interesting to have such an idea of what you think a play is going to be based on the artwork, based on the title, based on the way that they're choosing to sell it. And then to come away with an actual feeling of, wait, I actually understood something about this or it uncovered something that I've always thought about myself. And I think that's when you know a play is successful, right? I feel like there were so many times where I leave a show and I'm like, I don't know why I was there for two hours. I'm not coming away thinking any differently about the world. I don't know why I was there and what I was supposed to be thinking. And I don't think a play is necessarily supposed to tell you what to be thinking.

But I want to leave thinking about something or it had to taught me something about myself. And so, yeah, I think that's the beauty of a good play is even if it wasn't necessarily what you think a good play is, if it taught you something about yourself or made you start questioning something in your core being, then it's a good play.

[28:44] Audience Member: First of all, I'm thinking like 30 years of profiting off of her face and like tablets. We want to talk about profiting off of. I think there are a lot other more people that are profiting. I think Netflix is profiting way more off of JonBenét Ramsey than we are.

[29:02] Audience Member: Technical question. I'm pro-epilogue, by the way. Cool. I haven't read the play, but pro-epilogue. I want to know if they performed it in both of the productions you talked about.

[29:15] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Oh, okay. And they played those two characters, JonBenét Ramsey. So, speaking back to the epilogue, who performed it and how was it presented and which actors were the mom and JonBenét?

[29:28] Tori Keenan-Zelt: The epilogue was performed in all three productions. I would give permission to probably do it without, but we'd have to talk about it. The Patsy Ramsey is played by the actor who plays, oh my god, what's her name? Miss Kay. She's Ray's mentor. She's a guidance counselor. She's like a lifer at this public school, and she's the enforcer of the evangelical code. She's more complicated than that, but that's the role. So, she steps into Patsy's role. JonBenét is played by Hazel, the actor who's cast as a teen. There's another part in the play where Hazel transforms into JonBenét and recounts her death, JonBenét's own death, but it's connected to a moment that's traumatic for Hazel. The play introduces JonBenét on stage that way first, and then she comes back again.

[30:21] Audience Member: Ah, yes, in the front. Big fan. That's my other agent. We have a ringer over here. I mean, clearly, from what you just said and what we've heard, the material of this play, from some of your other work, is very dark and serious in some ways, but you do such a beautiful job of balancing that with levity and with comedy. Can you just talk a little bit about finding the balance of tone, and does that just come naturally, or is it something that you're thinking about actively when you're writing?

[30:53] Tori Keenan-Zelt: So, the question was about finding moments of levity and the balance of tone in the dark and in the comedy. Yeah. I don't see a difference at all. I do things that delight me, and exploring darkness delights me. I feel mischievous when I do it. And truth about people is funny most of the time, and when I'm thinking about a play idea, I'll talk to people in my life about it, and I'll say, what about this? And they'll laugh, and I'll be like, why are you laughing? Yeah, and it's that way all the way through. It's just how I see life.

[31:31] Audience Member: Do you feel responsible to any moment of truth in the true story?

[31:43] Tori Keenan-Zelt: That's a good question. Yes, so the question was, do you feel responsible to lead with truth in terms of the JonBenét story in the real life, true crime mystery? Yeah. Yes and no. The no is that the story is about people who are fascinated by the case, not about the case. I think it would be very different if I were just writing the story of JonBenét's death. But I'm writing about people's theories and delights and all of that. But I really wanted there to be, I wanted to acknowledge her as a real person who got swallowed up by the media and by her own death. And I read about her, what people had written, people who knew her wrote about her. And I was struck by something she said. She asked the gardener whether roses die when you cut them or after.

And that's a real thing that she said. And it just stuck with me and I loved it and I put it into the play in that epilogue. So I wouldn't ever say that's the real JonBenét, but I wanted to have a little bit of her in it.

[32:56] Audience Member: To humanize her.

[32:58] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yeah. I think this is a great time to ask you, Tori, what is coming up next for you? What other ideas are brewing? What other twisted stories are in there? And I eat up every single one, obviously. But yeah, what's your next project?

[33:17] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yeah. So I'm working on a new play that I'm developing, which is about a family that is poisoned by political polarization. I don't think any of us can relate to that. Yeah. And they're dealing with estrangement. They're dealing with death and birth at the same time. It's called I'll Love You Forever. And I'm working on screenwriting projects. I have a feature that is a horror movie about sorority rush. And a pilot called Lucy and Mina Forever that is a contemporary Dracula story.

[33:55] Audience Member: Ooh.

[33:56] Tori Keenan-Zelt: I know. I'm like, I want to read all of them right now. It's spooky season. And I was in a sorority.

[34:02] Audience Member: Yeah.

[34:03] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yeah. Ooh. Do you have any last lingering thoughts? Any more questions?

[34:10] Audience Member: Okay. Just a quick fun poll as we're wrapping up. Oh. Who here thinks that JonBenét's brother did it?

[34:20] Audience: Oh, we've not got that many hands. Not many. Okay. Oh. Oh. Ooh. Wow. I was expecting more. All right. Let's all go back, do some reading of the really crazy Reddit threads. No. And then we'll come back together. We don't know. We don't know?

[34:36] Audience: Yeah. You're just going to let it sit?

[34:38] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Yeah. Who else might have done it? Not my job to solve it. Does anyone want to pitch a theory? I mean, are there other theories? Yeah. Does anyone want to pitch a theory of JonBenét's death? Was he ever judged? I don't remember. I thought it was the dad that knows. But yeah. The dad comes up a lot too. Mostly because he keeps signing up to do interviews. So. A lot of people think it was the mom because he found that page in the book where she literally basically said she did it and it never got put into any kind of evidence. And also she died of stomach cancer, which is usually directly related to guilt.

[35:56] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Whoa. Ooh, we're going to use that. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's gonna go into play. Stomach cancer related to guilt. That's going to play. Getting medieval. Great. This has been so lovely. Thank you so much. Wonderful actors. Thank you for hanging with us. Woo! Woooo. Please read Tori's work. Obviously super biased but huge fan. Fantastic. And yeah. It's perfect for Spooky Season. I love listening to true crime podcasts and my dad always gets freaked out cause on my walks I like to listen to true crime podcasts and you're scared to die and I'm like and if I do profit off of it.

[36:59] Audience Member: That's right. Sign that Netflix deal. Am I right?

[37:01] Tori Keenan-Zelt: Alright. That's a great place to leave it. Thank you everyone. That was great.

[37:10] David Rigano: Our thanks to playwright Tori Keenan-Zelt, moderator Katy Zapanta, and actors Keilly McQuail and Molly Carden for joining us to discuss The JonBenét Game and its exploration of true crime, childhood, violence, and the grief women are often discouraged from discussing. Coming up next, we'll talk with playwright Doug DeVita about his adaptation of E.M. Forster's A Passage to India, reimagining the classic novel through hidden desire, forbidden intimacy, and colonial repression. Set in British-ruled India, the play follows Dr. Aziz, Cyril Fielding, and Adela Quested as their tangled attractions challenge the boundaries of culture, class, and empire. Using a storyteller theater style, DeVita brings unspoken passions to the forefront, examining the devastating consequences of silence and denial in a society governed by rigid moral codes.

[37:59] David Rigano: The episode features performances by Nitlin Madan, Marie Elena O'Brien, David Sabella, Joy Franz, Carol Monfederini, Anouj Parikh, David Carson, Patricia Randall, Mary Powelson, and David Mackler. So remember, follow our Instagram at Dramabookshowpodcast, subscribe to our Eventbrite at Dramabookshop, and remember, all the books we talk about can be found here at the Bookshop, and so can we, and we will see you at the Bookshop!