This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Marc-Eugene Garcia: Welcome to the Drama Book Show! My name is Marc-Eugene Garcia. In this episode, we explore how theatre can be created with accessibility and inclusion at its core. Theatre for neurodiverse audiences requires more than adapting existing work. It asks artists to rethink the creative process from the beginning and imagine new ways for audiences and performers to connect. We're joined by Dionne O'Dell, author of The Sense Ability Ensemble's Guide to Creating Theatre for Audiences that are Neurodiverse, along with contributors Ryan Duda and Evan Hill Phillips, for a conversation about the development of The Sense Ability Ensemble, the creation of multi-sensory and interactive performances, and the practices that help build more inclusive theatrical experiences.

Moderated by actor, writer, director, and arts and culture manager Joel Guzmán, this discussion explores collaboration, accessibility, and the future of theatre-making for diverse audiences. Here's Dionne O'Dell, Ryan Duda, Evan Hill Phillips, and Joel Guzmán, live at the Drama Bookshop.

[1:50] Joel Guzmán: It's been 10 years, so I can go circus anytime. I'm happy. This is like a dream, like having all of us from Michigan State University being here. I'm going to tell you what I'm going to talk about, and I'm going to introduce the book that you all know, The Sense Ability Ensemble's Guide to Creating Theatre for Audiences that are Neurodiverse. It's a practical handbook that opens up the process of creating theatre from the ground up, and the neurodiverse audience at the center. And this book takes us through the journey of the company, and shows us to move beyond simply adapting work to be sensory-friendly, and instead designing the theatre with this community in mind from the very beginning.

It also shares recommendation practices like using live music, puppetry, and one-on-one actor-audience interaction. It also explores the design consideration, sensory engagement, show length, actor and staff training, nonlinear storytelling, the use of social narrative, and the value of collaborating with professional and special education and occupational therapy. On top of that, it's practical guidance for tuning this model on theatre with sample forms and communication tools. And in 2017, in Michigan State University, Go Green! Go White! So I was able to explore and be part of the company with the Farm, a musical experience, and there I was as an actor, but also the opportunity to share my puppetry skills that I learned on my way in Puerto Rico and the Caribbean and Europe.

And it's a joy for me to receive my collaborators, Dionne, Ryan, and Evan, to New York City, so give it a round of applause. Let's begin. I'm going to start with some questions right away, if you don't mind. And one of the questions is, Dionne, why did you write this book? What is the reason for this book? Tell us more.

[4:05] Dionne O'Dell: Thank you so much, Joel. I will answer that question, but before I do, I just want to say what a joy it is to have you here with us representing not only MSU, but New York City. Joel, again, was a master's student in our arts management program at MSU and joined the Sensibility Ensemble and was really crucial to creating the story and the puppetry and just brought so much to help us form that show. So it's so exciting to be back in New York with Joel. I also wanted to say thank you to the Drama Bookshop. I moved to New York City when I was 29, and I would visit the old Drama Bookshop, which was a little gritty hole in the wall. And I often didn't feel like I was a part of the theater community when I lived here, and so I would go and be immersed in the scripts and in the magazines and really feel more of a part of the community.

So I'm thrilled to be back here promoting my book at the Drama Bookshop in this new, beautiful location. So thank you for hosting us. So back to your question, why did I write this book? So again, we started on this journey back in 2015, I believe. Ryan and Evan, thank you, were both undergraduate students at Michigan State University, and they were my research assistants. And we were doing a lot of work with the Sensory Friendly Movement, and we just thought there was really more to that. And we jumped in. We started doing research and coming to New York City and talking to people with the trusty Sidekick Theater. I went to London and talked to Tim Webb, who was the founder of Oily Cart Theater, and really trying to learn best practices of doing this work, because we thought there's really a difference between you're welcome here and this was created with you in mind.

So we really wanted to build theater from the ground up for audiences that were neurodiverse and not just adjust existing scripts to make them sensory friendly. So we embarked on the work. We really just jumped in head first. And over the course of doing about four shows, I would be at conferences or talking to other theater educators or professional artists. And they would always say to me, how did you begin? How did you start? We're really interested in this work, but we just don't know where to begin. And that's why I started thinking about writing the book as showcasing our journey and what we learned along the way, and also some of the best practices that I learned from others and having it also be really a practical guide.

The second part of the book, as you will see, is really nuts and bolts of touring to elementary schools. What are per diems and van rentals and different kinds of trainings that the students need in order to do this kind of work? So that's what kind of launched it. That's a long way about it. But I also wanted to say that when I was working and learning from Tim Webb with Oily Cart in London, he said to me, Dionne, you don't have to be an expert in neurodiversity. You're a theater expert. He said partner with people, occupational therapists, partner with special education teachers, partner with people who are neurodiverse and get them in and find out what they respond to. And that was just really great advice and stuck with me.

So that's what we did. We partnered with a lot of people at MSU and beyond and learned along the way. And we're still learning. And hopefully now this book will be a learning tool for others. I invited both Evan and Ryan to write chapters of the book because they were, again, founding members of the Sensibility Ensemble and really integral to developing our very first show and then beyond. And so they each wrote a chapter and I thought maybe they could talk about what's in their chapter a little bit and why they felt it was important to write about what they wrote about. So I'll hand it over to you first, Evan.

[7:41] Evan Hill Phillips: Yes. Hello and good day, everybody. So yeah, with a lot of the work that I got to do at MSU in terms of outreach and accessibility and inclusivity, it really opened up my perspective to really the impact that arts and education can have for those who are often not given a voice or an opportunity to feel represented in this space or feel comfortable in this space. I know that for me growing up, I have an older brother who's on the spectrum. If you hear a South Park ringtone go off in the audience right now, that's because he's here with us today too. And I talked a lot about just my path from being ignorant about his diagnosis to becoming more of an advocate for just creating a more acceptable space for him to be in.

And throughout all of that, I was also just pursuing theater and performing and always just saying, hey, bro, what'd you think of this show? What'd you think of this performance? And he was like, yeah, it was good. And I'd be like, tell me a character from it. So it was really important that if we had the ability to create this type of work for someone like him that would engage with him on a different level that was more personable and more accessible for him, then I think that would really contribute to just creating that inclusive space in the arts that we are striving to make. And so my chapter is mostly just about how I got involved with the theater companies that we partnered with, what I learned as an actor and as a performer and as an advocate during the work we did for our first sensory theater production, and then the journey that I've been on to bring more of this work to different parts of the industry, specifically the Southeast Atlanta market that I'm in right now, and just making sure that regardless if we're able to do a full on sensory theater production or even just incorporate some of these practices into a lot of arts organizations, it's all part of the greater goal of just making sure that we lift up the voices of those who really value from this type of work and just feeling really optimistic about where this will go and how this book can provide more resources and understanding for how to incorporate this type of work and just really just create more of a community that is bringing this work to fruition and in more spaces as well. So yeah, that's mostly what my chapter is all about.

[10:10] Ryan Duda: What I wanted to get across in my chapter was how organic and collaborative this entire process was, and for me personally as a theater artist, that is what I find the most meaning and most power in the pieces of art that I'm a part of. It's when they are organic and then when they are collaborative, and that spirit I want to recognize there are folks in the audience that were part of this process from the beginning, David, Sophie, Caitlin, watching it or either being a part of helping us craft this. When we first started developing this at Michigan State, Dionne, Evan, Joelle, myself, and folks in the audience were a part of a community outreach project called Open Spot Theater. They're based in Metro Detroit, Michigan, and they had classes that they host on Michigan State's campus in East Lansing.

These are performing arts classes for children and adults with different types of disabilities. That was our first sort of experience getting into this work, and I remember Dionne, you wondering what types of theater exists out there that are made specifically for audiences with neurodiversity, and we didn't know. Of course, there's Lion King. That's probably the most famous for being adapted to a sensory-friendly performance, which is fantastic, but what type of theater existed at that time was the question we asked that was made from the ground up for these audiences, so that's when we embarked. We got funding from Michigan State to come out to New York City to interview with Trustee Sidekick.

You saw the production Up and Away. We got to interview some of their leading artists there, and we just thought there's no reason why we couldn't make something similar at Michigan State, and that's what we did for the next couple of years. Dionne let me be a part of that as a research assistant, as well as Evan, so I'm just so grateful that you let us be a part of that, and from there, it was just this kernel of an idea with some suggestions and some interviews, but then our own ideas, and we just went for it and learned a heck of a lot in the process, which I'm sure we will explain later on in this discussion, but it was just so organic, so collaborative, and it would have been possible without everybody, but also would have been possible without just taking a risk and trying to make a difference because I think that's what we are really trying to do.

That was the heart of our mission, and when you have that driving every action, every decision you make, even when you make some mistakes along the way, you're going to get there. You're going to achieve something amazing, so I hope I got that across in my chapter, and I'm really excited to explore more later in this discussion. Good, good.

[12:28] Joel Guzmán: And Dionne, when you start creating and finding the actors, one other thing that happened when we create production and have the big idea, right away, what was one of the challenges that you faced creating the work during, after? Tell us a little bit about how that went in the process.

[12:46] Dionne O'Dell: Yes, thank you so much. So, there are a lot of challenges to doing this work. I think we learned along the way and dealt with them as they came up. I'm a lyricist and a book writer, so I have a music background, but I don't compose music, so first of all, we partnered with a woman named Shelly Peterson, who's an amazing composer, and that was us coming together, and I can't really say that was a challenge, figuring out how we were going to work together, maybe a little bit, but it really became really seamless. We work really well together. I was very fortunate, and I am very fortunate, that at MSU, part of my research is able to play out in the classroom, so we were able to develop our first show, Farm a Musical Experience, in a theater practicum class.

So, what that meant, quite frankly, is I didn't have to pay my actors. They were paying to learn and to come to school. So, I think the biggest challenge overall that I want to speak to is financial, of course, and certainly in these times, it's hard for everybody, not just people who are trying to do theater for neurodiversity and theater for children, which kind of always seem to get the

[13:49] Joel Guzmán: Joel Guzmán is an expert at paper mache puppets, so we did a lot of stuff with paper and paper mache. It was highly creative and really impactful with the children. What else do I want to say about that? As far as other challenges, just because we hadn't really embarked on this work before, we were learning while we were creating. So it was in constant motion. But I have to say we had an incredible team. I think it was, Farm was one of the easiest shows that ever came together. And I think partially that's because the people that are drawn to this work are people that don't have big egos. They're people that want to use their art to serve others. And so we just all came together and there was no debate over who was going to have what role. Everybody just contributed their strengths and it came together in that way.

[15:01] Dionne O'Dell: Thank you, Dionne. This is for all of the actors. It's something I think there is no much teaching in the school and universities around interacting with the audience in a way that you can improvise. But this is really specific. So I want you to tell us what you can advise to any actor that wants to approach this work, how they can prepare themselves, what they can expect, how you go through this process of going to a play like this. Yeah, I know for me it was really seemingly a daunting task because on top of having to be a performer, you needed to have some sort of sense of the sensibilities of being an educator. You had to have a little bit of improvisation skills to be able to be flexible in unexpected situations and just like work on the fly and just roll with the punches.

I would say yes and any and all suggestions. It's challenging because while there are classes that we took that gave us those opportunities to step our feet in there, once we got boots on the field, it was really time to put that to the test when we were interacting with our participants and our audience members and our students. So it was lots of victories with that, lots of things that we learned as well, what's a good practice, what's a practice that may need some more work. And all through that, I feel like as I was in other projects and productions at the university, Farm was really our first sensory theater show. Farm was definitely the one that really unlocked a new sort of potential inside of me to be able to just allow space for breath and for slowness and stillness and not to constantly be like, bam, bam, boom, boom, boom.

Like just really just this is outside of the theater norms that I've been trained in and used to. And having to adjust to that was a challenge that ended up becoming something that to my realization was much more approachable and relaxing and just encouraging to do as a performer, just to be able to connect one on one with our audience members, to be able to give them one day where they can just have a break and just be themselves and just be appreciated for everything that is unique and special about them. And it's really cool to contribute even just a small part to something so necessary and something so important. And with those challenges in mind, having to just overcome those fears and push through and trust in our ensemble and know that everybody was looking out for us and that the safe environment was created by people who are fostering a safe environment as well, that really did encourage me to just go head on, no fear, woohoo, into it.

And for that, I've grown exponentially as a performer and as an advocate as well. And definitely forever grateful to have gotten that experience through the creation of our sensory theater productions.

[18:05] Ryan Duda: So in the book, we explain how the overall structure of Farm the Musical, which Dion explains, it's a basic, it's a loose linear story with different scenes being different checkpoints and in each scene there's a different activity that the actors would lead the audience members through. So for example, Evan, you led the audience members through a chicken dance. We would hand out eggs, like egg shakers, those instruments. And Evan would lead the students or the audience members through doing the different stuff of the chicken dance. We had an activity where we folded laundry and touched different textures and put things in the laundry bin. Joelle used a giant storm puppet, which is beautiful and incredible.

You got to look at pictures, especially like how large you are, Joelle, and use a storm and we had to blow the storm away and react to that. So it was extremely interactive. And we wanted to give the audience members the freedom to mold that story however they saw it fit. So if they wanted to get up and join the scene as we're doing the chicken dance or play with some other prop that we had or interact with a different actor, even though we're trying to move the storyline through, we're going to mold, we're going to adapt and meet the audience members' needs and interests where they are. We keep the process extremely organic. So in that sense, every single show we did had the potential to be completely different.

And every experience that we offered every single audience member was unique and personal to them and to us and to everybody overall, which made it extremely exciting. I know as a theater artist, I'm always striving to, how can I be fully, completely surrendered into the moment when I'm a character? And in this type of art, when you have no choice but to be fully in the moment because you don't know what's going to happen next, it's so freeing and so rewarding and so exciting. So it's not just exciting for us, but obviously we're trying to make an amazing experience for the participants. Really unique, fun, interesting model to be an actor and one that I think is especially meaningful for audience members, especially young audience members, and especially audiences with neurodiversity that don't have as many opportunities as a neurotypical audience. So it was incredible.

[20:08] Evan Hill Phillips: I wanted to piggyback off of something both of these two had said, which is I do think you have to have training in improv and a little bit of education because you do have to be in the moment, exactly what Ryan was saying. And it's such good training for any actor, I think, not just doing this work, but working in children's theater in general because you do have to so be in the moment and respond to what the kids are doing. It also brought up something that's a challenge, which was the students sometimes don't laugh when you're expecting them to laugh. They don't clap when you're wanting applause. We would have wanderers come up on the stage and we made sure that the teachers knew that was okay.

Our cast and ensemble was trained to deal with that. And there were many times when we just incorporated those students that came into our playing space into the show, which was really fun. But you do have to really be ready for anything. One lesson learned was we had once toured to what was called Jackson ISD, which was a county school where kids with neurodiversity were bused in from all over the county. And the principal had asked if we could perform to 40 students. And typically we like to perform to around 10. That's another issue that I can mention about a financial challenge is we don't want it to be exorbitant ticket costs for families, but there is so much one-on-one interaction that happens.

You want to keep your audiences small. So we would typically perform to 10. I caved because he said, these kids never get live theater. Can you please do the whole school? And I'm like, sure, let's have everybody. And he said, okay, to accommodate the space, we have to go in the gymnasium, which we've performed in gymnasiums before, but it happened to be a stormy day and it was really loud and echoey in there. And there's something on the roof that kept banging the whole performance. I don't know if you guys remember this, if you're part of that tour, um, the cast got off from the keyboardist and I was just like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. We had so many kids and so many wonders. It was really hard to control it all.

And I think the cast was exhausted from being so in the moment in that show at the end. And I was like, oh wow, that was a disaster. And the principal came up to me and he was like, that was the best thing we've ever had at this school. And I was really shocked. I was like, oh, and it made me realize that for one, these kids are starving for arts content and performances that they just don't get. And some of the public schools that we go to, the teachers would tell us, we might have an assembly, but our kids have to come in back. And if somebody's loud, we have to take them out. So we really felt the impact of that. The other lesson was next time we won't do 40 children at once, we will come back four times instead. So yeah, that was a really big lesson. And that's, I talk about that in the book as well.

[22:50] Dionne O'Dell: I do remember that day.

[22:52] Ryan Duda: Yes, it's coming back. It was, it was wild because this is something that I've never done in a show before, but at that, in the midst of that performance, I had to change the script just to make things work. Because while the script was like a good sort of like rubric and guideline, it wasn't necessarily what we were like restrained to. And so in that moment, I'm like, we need to take a breath. We just need to stop for a moment. We had so much fun. Let's take in that moment and then let it go and then move on to the next one. And when I saw that was effective, I was like, all right, we're doing this for every other scene now. We're just going to, we're just going to sit down and be quiet. But at that, in that instance, though, that was like sort of the educator half of the training that I received.

But also it allowed us to really get to the root of what theater is, which is just playing and being playful and flexible. We're all just like critical skills to have for those types of situations. And so it's, it's, and it's so remarkable that to your eyes, something seems to be like, oh, it was a disaster. They're going to chase me out of town. I have to change my name, grow a beard. It turns out that it was really just like a special, one of a kind, never before happening opportunity for these students and something that will always stick with them the same way it always sticks with us. And it's really just wonderful to be a part of that sort of change in the industry for sure. Even if it's just in one little community, it can cause a ripple effect that impacts so many other people. So, and I think that's really cool.

[24:36] Evan Hill Phillips: I think it's like you hit a point too, as an actor performing, also making sure everything go well is how to be present at that moment. And even though you have, I had to say this line, I had to go to this part, like that moment for me was being so present and working before in the circus that you are present with, let's see what the audience do. And I will react to it. This was solely because you having another connection with a human being and say, okay, let's be here and let's be now. And that's also what's something really important for me that I take away. Beside creating the puppetry for the show with Dion asked me to, hey, let's create a storm, come from the background, creating puppets for social justice, and then transfer that knowledge.

Okay. How I can make this work? And I connect to the roots of growing up in Puerto Rico. And you asked me, do a storm? And I was like, oh, a storm? And then I connect with Puerto Rico, like all the hurricanes that came to the island. So, what's a connection, like a healing process too, at the same moment we are healing others and trying to interact with others was also a beautiful moment for me to just be present and just create that. So, really appreciate that moment. I don't know how much time we have and we are in the, I don't want to keep going if I have to stop, but we are good. Okay. So, let's roll. Working in the shows, anything that you learn with working with actors, neurodiverse, like any of you want to share on those moments?

[26:10] Dionne O'Dell: Yeah. What was really, so as we were developing these shows at the same time, we had our after school program at MSU for students and participants who are on the spectrum. And that whole experience was just really great to create theater with so many creative and interesting minds that think outside of the box in ways you never thought. But it was just also a wonderful opportunity to make friends and also just get to know everyone who we were working with. One particular student for me named Jacob, we always had this thing where I don't know how it happened, but suddenly I was the mayor and he was a citizen and we would just salute each other each time we saw each other. And, but that was like our special thing that connected us and that bonded us and really, really kickstarted.

And it's like, all right, mayor, let's get to work. We've got to perform this show. We've got to come up with our dance, our lines and things like that too. And so that was all very wonderful. But then years later, I find out that Jacob is now a part of the cast of one of our shows as well. And he's getting an opportunity to incorporate all of those performance skills into the work that we crafted for audiences who are similar to him. And I feel like that was such a critical component to creating this type of work to just have involvement of those who identify as neurodiverse within that process, both to consult and to perform as well. And really,

[27:38] Dionne O'Dell: What I learned from him and watching him perform and interacting with him really gave me insight as to a different way to see this world that we've crafted and created. How all of these different sensory elements and components and practices really are impacting those who feel it on the level that maybe you and I don't necessarily feel it on the same level as. And it's just so fascinating to see that in this format, in this medium of theatre, we have the ability to create surroundings and situations and scenarios that are handcrafted and made to just respond to those stimuli and engage with those ideas. And all of that is just so much to wrap your head around and think about and develop. But it's still so surreal that it's something that can be done, should be done, and has to be done.

And we never would have known that had we not gotten an opportunity to share this type of work for those who we were making it for. And so that to me was really like something special that I discovered working with other performers and artists and students who are on the spectrum as well. I wanted to give a little context to what Evan just talked about. So in 2018, I attended the Big Umbrella Festival, which was a festival here in New York City hosted by Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts. And it brought together artists from actually all over the world that were interested in this type of work. And Oily Cart Theatre, who I mentioned before, Tim Webb was their founder. He's recently retired.

But he brought with him a company that performed a show. And they had an actor working with them who was in his 40s who identified as being autistic. And that really stuck out to me. And I thought that's really putting your money where your mouth is as far as inclusion. And I knew that I had to do that. We had just developed Farm. We had toured it for one year. And we were coming back to revisit the show. We have students graduate out. That's another one of the challenges. So if we're doing a show, we have to recast and relearn everything. But I really wanted to use community actors that identified as neurodiverse and cast them in the show. So we did that. Our second year of Farm, we cast a gentleman named Christopher Hibbs, who was a local actor with autism who was part of the OpenSpot program that both Ryan and Evan had worked with in a large capacity and become friendly with.

Really great actor, really funny, wonderful sense of timing. And so he played Grandpa Goat the second year of our tour and got fan mail. And we had a really wonderful time with him. And I think we learned just as much from him as he learned from us as far as touring and performing. And so I tried to keep that up. Evan mentioned Jacob. Jacob was in our last show, What If Wilhelmina? And he was an OpenSpot kid when he was in his teens. He's now 22 years old and able to perform with the MSU students as we tour and develop work. He's been really crucial to that process. We also would invite students with autism in the development process and test out ideas. So that was really helpful because we might think something's going to work really well. And let me tell you, Christopher tells it like it is. If he doesn't like something, he's like, don't like it, don't do that. So yeah, we listened to him quite a bit.

[30:56] Dionne O'Dell: Oh, sorry. I just also remembered there was one of the first times we performed Farm in front of an audience. There was a part in the show where audiences are invited to help us sort the laundry and find the matching socks. And that was the game. That's all there was to it. Just an opportunity to have some practical matching skills. And then when Christopher was in the audience, and I don't know if it was because of the familiarity that he had with the show, but he immediately took the sock that he was supposed to sort and started puppeteering it like a sock puppet. And it caused this ripple effect where all the other participants took their socks and started puppeteering it as well and creating these characters.

And it was such like, that's a brilliant setup to when we bring this guy out because they're already playing around with puppetry, playing around with creating characters, and really engaging with the world that we're creating. And those wonderful moments of discovery is something that, for some reason, we couldn't have thought up of if it wasn't for bringing the show to our participants. And that's really is why it's such an essential component to creating these types of shows to make sure that we're giving them an opportunity to make the experience the one that they want it to be, which I think is super special.

[32:09] Dionne O'Dell: I'll be super succinct. But that was the biggest wake-up call in this entire process was we put on this show and then had the moment where we realized, oh, we're doing this for an audience rather than with an audience. And if we truly wanted to achieve our goal of being more accessible and creating a more equitable world, you can't be doing things for, you have to be doing things with. So that's what I think is our biggest learning experience there.

[32:35] Joel Guzmán: Now, we're going to take some audience questions. Did you have any questions?

[32:40] Audience Member: Yeah, right there. There's a question.

[32:54] Dionne O'Dell: I can certainly answer that one. You can repeat the question.

[32:57] Joel Guzmán: Yes, thank you. Thank you. She asked, what does a typical show look like? What does the audience see and how does it work? So all of the shows that I've created now that were for audiences that are neurodiverse and with those kinds of audiences, about 35 to 40 minutes, that was the best practice that I actually learned from Oily Cart Theatre of London. They don't have to be, but all of mine were musicals. I think that the participants really respond well to music and live music. So a couple of times we had to use tracks, but whenever we could, we tried to have live music. Evan played saxophone in Farm, our first time out. We've had a keyboardist. We've had someone playing violin in our shows.

We have about five songs and then a very loose plot line that's weaved through the song. So for instance, for Farm, a musical experience, the plot line was a sock is looking for his soulmate and it's gotten blown off the laundry line. And so he's going to different people on the farm and different animals trying to find the soulmate and at the end he finds the soulmate. So there's different points of interactivity throughout that loose plot line. So for instance, we had some beautiful paper scarecrow puppets and they came out and did a dance to some live violin music and then the students mirrored the puppets movement and we asked them to stand up and move around the playing space with the actors.

I think Ryan mentioned the egg shakers that we had. We had points of drumming on tin cans where one of the farmers, which were some of our actors in the show, they would be assigned a particular student and they would help them and assist them in the interactive moment. So the show kind of moved along again. There was a bit of improvisation but a loose plot line and then usually towards the end there's some kind of a dance party where all of the students are also asked to come up on the playing space and they get to really interact with the set and the props. Another best practice that I learned was really incorporating the set or sorry incorporating the audience seating into the set design.

So for Farm we had these large tire seats that we created so the audience members felt that they were a part of the show even if they didn't want to participate. And I should also say that participation is always by choice. We always ask the students if they want to participate. They're not forced to participate at all. For other shows that we've done I know we've been talking a lot about Farm but we adapted a children's book called What If Wilhelmina by an amazing author and illustrator Joseph Belisle. And that show was about a cat that's gone missing and so we had paintbrush bristles that the kids could feel if they wanted to like the cat's whiskers. We had sandpaper if they wanted to feel like what a kitty kiss would feel like.

The cat goes missing so we invited them up onto the stage and they had little magnifying glasses and they were searching for the cat at one point. So yeah they're highly interactive, highly participatory, lots of puppetry, lots of song, lots of just interactive moments whether it's through touch or smell or different visuals, very colorful. All of our costumes are very colorful.

[36:04] Ryan Duda: Do you want to talk about the color coding that we did for Farm?

[36:08] Evan Hill Phillips: Sure I was going to also add that we learned every audience participant's name before the show. So when we end we would- Apart from the 40.

[36:11] Dionne O'Dell: Not the 40. When it was like five or six. I memorized it, never.

[36:14] Evan Hill Phillips: Give credit. So we learned all the audience participants names and they would hang out in the lobby doing different activities that were centered around the show in this case of Farm. And then when we would sing our welcome song, welcome them into the theatrical space where those tires that were color-coded so there'd be like a tire with red fabric inside of it. Then there'd be somebody in the show that was dressed in red that would be that person's one-on-one interactive person. So there were like interactive actors or I guess helpers and then there were the main characters of the show that were moving the plot along. And then at the end of the show we would say goodbye to everybody and use their names and go like oh David hi David and everyone say hi to you and then we move on.

So that's how we make it more interactive and give the audience members agency in helping to move the plot along and become part of the show. And then also the format of the show sort of exists beyond the confines of that 35-40 minute sort of slot because a lot of what happens before the show and after the show is part of what we do as well. So when we send out the social narratives that sort of acts as like a visitor guide to your experience coming to this theater, seeing this show, what to expect and what to see. Those are all materials that are given out to teachers and community partners beforehand so that our students and participants know what the itinerary is going to be, what to expect, not be scared by big storm puppets or socks that stare into your soul.

But those were all resources that we had so that we can ensure that they had an experience that they had the ability and capacity to participate in once they arrived. And then in some of our shows too at the very end some sort of token or memory of their experience is also given to them as well. For Farm it was a little potted plant with dirt and a seed inside of it that teachers were able to bring back to their classroom, were able to take care of and grow and act as a little reminder of this experience that we all share together and everything that we work towards together as actors and participants to create this last little gift to give to our audiences to take with them and always remember their experience by.

And I think that really just helps to create this really immersive sphere of this theatrical experience and the present moment of the show is critical and important as well as the before and the after is all part of crafting that immersive experience as well.

[38:39] Joel Guzmán: Any other questions?

[38:44] Audience Member: I just remember in one of the shows, speaking of takeaways, and I don't remember which one it was, but maybe you will, but I feel like there were things that helped the kids during the show, like if they had to deal with stress or noise, that they could kind of take away with them?

[39:02] Dionne O'Dell: Yeah so the question was about things that the students could use during the show if they were experiencing stress or being overwhelmed or the noise was too loud. I want to say we did have ear plugs on hand or headphones if noise got to be too much. We also had legs that I think they could squeeze for stress. What we found was most times they didn't use them, which was surprising to me at first because in a lot of the sensory performances, like Ryan had mentioned the Lion King, those supports are used a lot. I think that because they were so engaged and because there was so much one-on-one attention that they didn't need them a lot of the time, not always, but a lot of the time.

[39:49] Evan Hill Phillips: Yeah and part of that too is in terms of things that were provided is the ability to have the autonomy to enter and leave the space whenever necessary, but if they were to leave the space it was still important that the sort of quieter zone that they went to had stuff that still engaged them with the world of the show, still provided them an alternative to experiencing the themes of being on a farm if actually being there was a little overwhelming. You can still color a picture of a pig or a barn or put together a puzzle of a tractor or just have some sensory things like related to a farm like dirt or seeds or other such materials just so that you still had an opportunity to be sensory engaged but on a level that meets you where you're at, whether it's being within the space or away from the space.

All of that was really helpful in terms of still like making sure that our audiences were advocated for and cared for and still a part of this experience that you know we wish could happen more, yeah.

[40:58] Joel Guzmán: What is the target age range for most of these programs?

[41:02] Dionne O'Dell: So the question was what was the target age range for most of the programs? For Farm it was definitely mid-elementary school to maybe sixth grade. Our latest show What If Wilhelmina was pitched a bit lower so lower L. That said we found that we wound up doing What If Wilhelmina on our main stage at MSU and

[41:57] Ryan Duda: I've done some work with Bertram Hills, which is a retirement facility in East Lansing, and I found some similarities in just my observations of some of their programs in the ability to grasp onto the sensory elements in a performance. So I'm really curious. I haven't had time yet to really explore that, but I think the sensory model could be really wonderful to use in elder care facilities.

[42:21] Joel Guzmán: Bouncing off of that, have you looked into, or does the book talk about creating theater for maybe older students who are neurodiverse, depending on different ends of the spectrum and what they can handle in middle and high school ages?

[42:46] Dionne O'Dell: We haven't yet. I would love to. Yes, definitely. I think some of our students with OpenSpot have grown up with us in a way, so they might have started in their teens and they're now in their 20s, and they've still really enjoyed the work. And depending on their particular diagnosis and what their interests are, we found that some of them, even though they might be older, they still really love Thomas the Train. But it's tricky because each person is different and each individual is different, so knowing how we would change or adapt something to an older audience and still make it specific to them, I guess it goes back to having them be involved in the process.

[43:28] Ryan Duda: To add on to that, with how adaptable these shows are, what typically happens is when we give the audiences an opportunity to be involved in the show, the show often goes in the direction they want to take it in. And if our audience skews a little older, even if Farm is something more geared towards this dedicated elementary school age range, if we ask the same questions to someone older, it kind of changes that sort of tone of the show as well. Maybe sometimes it's a little less wholesome, maybe we're talking about farts now, but that's just the format of what this show is, what these shows are, and the fact that the performers have to adjust and adapt to the needs and wants of our audiences, even if it's a little within reason, even if it's outside of what we intended to bring tone-wise, at the end of the day, if it engages them and involves them and meets with them on their level, then I sort of see that as an opportunity to create accessibility for a variety of age ranges in that regard.

[44:34] Joel Guzmán: I found a question here. Yeah, I can see how you're so generous with your students and there's so much give-and-take between all of you, which is beautiful. How's it changed you as a theater educator? Because there's a generosity up here that's, I'm not a theater person, but it's not my understanding of what the theater world is always like.

[44:56] Dionne O'Dell: Thank you for saying that. Just to repeat, it seems strange to repeat a compliment, but she said... The question is, why are you so beautiful and amazing? That it just seems like a very generous and collaborative environment with the students, and how has this work changed me as an educator? That's a great question. And I think it's one of the first times that I've really been able to truly collaborate with people, and that's because of the generosity of the students that I had. And I say that with all sincerity. I know I mentioned before, I think people that are drawn to this type of work are people that don't have a lot of ego, and they are really using their skills and their artistry to try to change the world and be impactful.

And certainly, the reason I'm drawn to theater is because I think that it is the one art form that can truly examine the human condition and can really change lives for the better and make people think. I'm really drawn to the social justice aspect of it, and I think that's something we all share. And so, it's easy to collaborate with people when you're all similar minded, and this work draws us together.

[46:19] Ryan Duda: Yeah, I just want to take a moment. It's not very often you get the chance to compliment your mentor and get it on the record on a podcast, not just in passing. So, I just want to take the opportunity to say, you embody everything that not just a theater educator, but an educator should be. Because when I think back to every step I've taken in my educational career, my professional career, it's because somebody's opened up doors for me to step through when I didn't have the experience or I just had the interest. I need somebody to give me a chance. And that is 100% who Dion is. Myself, with Evan, Joelle, other folks in this room, hundreds of folks at Michigan State University, I'm sure beyond, your kids.

She opens up doors for people and gives them the opportunity. She trusts in people. She trusted in us to bring whatever random talents we had to this collaborative devising process for this show, which made it the organic, unique thing that it is. And that would not have happened if she didn't put that trust in us, which takes a lot of courage and vulnerability. And so, I want to put that on the record, guys. Everyone should be like Dion.

[47:18] Dionne O'Dell: Thank you, Ryan.

[47:21] Evan Hill Phillips: I want to compliment Dion, too. Oh, my God. Because I will say the fact that even after graduation, years later, even after this work is moving down the totem pole of all of our other credits professionally, the fact that we have still come back years later to be a part of this, to foster this, to still learn from this, to still grow from this, to still just be a part of this change and a part of this movement is really just a testament to all of the work that Dion put into to inspire us and to want to help signal boost, wanting to just make the world more accessible. Is that really a crime? I don't think so. I think that benefits all of us to be in a more accessible world, in a more accessible environment.

And that's something I'm forever grateful to Dion for, for just really helping to foster that motivation and that drive to just put theater's money where its mouth is and just make those inclusive spaces. And with this book, I feel like it's even more accessible to learn how to do all of that as well.

[48:32] Dionne O'Dell: And there's more. There's more. There's so much more. But yeah, it's definitely something that I'm deeply grateful, forever grateful for, to have just gotten a chance to work with wonderful artists, wonderful people, wonderful advocates who helped me carry their practices and messages to others as well. So, we try to share the wealth where we can. Thank you, Dion.

[48:50] Dionne O'Dell: You're welcome. You are not, I cannot leave without a compliment. This is, but also, it's also the testament around like why this book exists and why this kind of work is created. It's not easy to find director of people to work on to develop a project for a long term. And after years, keep continuing talking about it. And probably we will continue about it more. And also that to be like that openness of trusting your students, trusting the people you have around you, and then everything aligned in a way that it's come kind of synchronicity around. I have a puppeteer. I have a musician. Everything comes together with that openness and heart to make something really good. So, that also something to take away around like when you want to create a project, that openness and trust to the actors and the people that you have around you.

Even they don't speak the language. When I start with, I only have three sentences probably. A little more. But that openness, realize that create a work that will last because people care because you care. And that's also to take away something from the book.

[49:53] Joel Guzmán: So, what we can, oh, we have one more question. But I was going to say what we can end on, but we will take your question. Is sometimes your students become your friends, and then they become your colleagues, and then they become your family. And these guys are my family. So, I feel very lucky. But yes, one last question.

[50:11] Audience Member: Well, first and foremost, it's good to see this whole team together again. You know I've followed you guys since. Ryan, congratulations, man.

[50:23] Ryan Duda: Thank you.

[50:25] Audience Member: My question is, what can we as supporters do to promote this type of program in our communities, at our library, at our churches, schools?

[50:39] Dionne O'Dell: That's a great question. And it was what can we do to support this type of work in our communities. There's not a lot of it out there right now. So, I think supporting the sensory friendly movement, which again is happening not just in performance spaces with theater, but happening in planetariums, happening in libraries, happening at MSU. The basketball team now has an area where if people get overwhelmed, they have a quiet space to go to. So, really finding out what resources are available. And also, just being supportive. We've had so many parents come to us and say, I don't often take my child somewhere because if they get overwhelmed and have a meltdown, it's always a big production. People are always staring and pointing instead of being supportive and asking questions to how they can support.

So, I guess being the voice in the room that stands up for people and tries to let them know that they're not alone and that there are supports and opportunities for them. And hopefully we'll see this kind of work grow.

[51:41] Ryan Duda: Part B, your storm is in the same pages. He stares at me every night.

[51:47] Dionne O'Dell: That's it. Evan has taken a lot of the props and set down to Atlanta because we're trying to get a farm off the ground in Atlanta. So, he's the keeper of that show right now.

[52:01] Ryan Duda: One hot glue at a time.

[52:04] Dionne O'Dell: I think we're about to finish. Where people can reach out if they want to keep more information around the book. Do you have any site, anything they can follow, their company?

[52:14] Dionne O'Dell: Sure. There is a link on MSU Department of Theater's webpage. So, if you just do a Google search of Michigan State University Department of Theater, there's lots of information about the Sensibility Ensemble. We also have a website which is just sensibilityensemble.com.

[52:30] Ryan Duda: Thank you.

[52:31] Dionne O'Dell: Okay. Thank you everyone to join us in this night of celebration with this beautiful book. Hopefully we'll see you again. This is the first, I think, of many. This will no end. We want to thank you so much. Thank you for the Drama Bookshop to have us here. Appreciate you and have a good night everyone.

[52:57] Ryan Duda: Thank you all for being here tonight.

[52:58] Dionne O'Dell: Thank you all for coming. Once again, please do follow the Drama Book Show wherever you get your podcasts. Please do follow @dramabookshowpodcast on Instagram to know when this episode drops. And please subscribe to the Drama Bookshop on Eventbrite so we can see all your smiling faces at events in the future. We are going to ask you to stay in your seats for just another moment. I'm going to bring all of our contributing authors up to the front of the store. And our resident Disney line leader, Mark, is going to line you up just one row at a time. If you did not get a chance to purchase the book on your way in. If you just realized that this book is the perfect Christmas gift or holiday gift for every person you know. Dylan is behind the register more than happy to sell you a copy or another copy or another five copies. And we will all see you up at the front of the store momentarily to get your book signed.

[54:02] Ryan Duda: Once again, thank you all very much.

[54:03] Dionne O'Dell: Thank you.

[54:33] Joel Guzmán: Templin's solo play brings together historical research, vivid monologues, and period songs to explore resilience, transformation, and the lives forever changed by one of history's most enduring events. So we'll see you then. Remember to follow us on Instagram at dramabookshowpodcast. Subscribe to our Eventbrite at dramabookshop. And remember all the books we talk about can be found here at the bookshop. And so can we, and we will, see you at the bookshop. Bye-bye.