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[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally. And I'm Andrew DeWolf. And I'm Brianna Jones. And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew and Bri to like musical theater. And Andrew, we have a returning special guest. I feel like we have a lot of returning special guests, Jess. This one better be really special. I mean, this is really special. It's been a while since she's been on and I've missed her so much. Please welcome back musical theater historian and host of Stealing Focus and all around amazing human being Emily Clark.

[0:38] Emily Clark: Yay! Oh my god. Hello, everybody. Happy pride.

[0:46] Jesse McAnally: Happy pride. Yeah, yeah. We were actually saying at the start of this instead of like at the end because we forgot in the last episode.

[0:51] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, don't worry. We forgot to say in the last episode and then we did The Lion King where you just made a dumb joke about it because my worst pride month ever is there should be a pride rock but like a gay pride rock or LGBTQ pride rock. I make it ready rocks.

[1:11] Emily Clark: Okay, I was raised by three dads. Let's be clear. So there's some implication I'm willing to say that's like, three dads and one mom. Come on. Hi, this is Paul Settos had that same situation. So how about modern family, baby? It takes a village.

[1:31] Jesse McAnally: We don't need families anymore. I'm a dumb we're done with the family.

[1:35] Andrew DeWolf: You know what? I'm really mad. In fact, Emily, maybe you can help us out with this. We're having a little bit of a situation here at Musicals with Cheese and I don't like it.

[1:46] Jesse McAnally: So Bri is bringing her boyfriend into town and super conservative like one of the worst people in the world is her boyfriend's father and I don't want to say her boyfriend. Oh my god. Okay. Yes, her boyfriend. She's dating Rush Limbaugh's corpse. The father of Rush Limbaugh.

[2:06] Emily Clark: Yeah, yeah, yeah, those conservative family members. You gotta love them. And Andrew's like telling me that we got to act like we aren't podcast hosts while they're around and I don't want to be what I'm not. Why would you have to not act like your podcast?

[2:21] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know. They hate podcasts that much because they took radio away from Rush Limbaugh. Podcast hosts are embarrassing.

[2:24] Jesse McAnally: Nah. No, the way to do it is because a lot of normies across the board like the mainstream musical stuff. So, you know, you might be able to relate it to things like, what are they? Wicked. You know, a lot of people have like, I went to see Wicked when it was in town or the Hamilton. They probably won't like Hamilton, but you know what I mean? Like, well, rap isn't music. I mean, no. Yeah. Pretty liberal relatives who who say that. And I'm like, you guys, you gotta stop.

[2:59] Emily Clark: But they ain't really liberals. I don't know if they'll care. I don't know if they'll care. Be yourself. But I think if you have to deal with them, you could always be like The Music Man is a really good show. I really like that show. And they'll probably agree with you. And you wouldn't have to lie about that because you do like that show.

[3:11] Andrew DeWolf: So you're saying we shouldn't just lie and have a whole bunch of slapstick.

[3:17] Emily Clark: I'm not. Yeah, a whole bunch of farce, right? Storytelling farce where we're all lying to each other. And at the end, we have them on our podcast to talk about. However, however, you should be in drag. That's just a given. This metaphor stretched itself far enough. We're talking about La Cage Aux Folles. Cue the music for E!

[3:40] Jesse McAnally: It's my world that I want to have a little pride in. My world. And it's not a place I have to hide in. Life's not worth a damn. Till you can say, hey world, I am what I am.

[4:18] Jesse McAnally: So La Cage Aux Folles is a musical with music, lyrics by Jerry Herman, and a book by Harvey Fierstein based on La Cage Aux Folles by Jean Poiret. It premiered on Broadway at the Palace Theatre August 21st, 1983. It ran for four years and 1,761 performances, closing on November 15th, 1987. It received nine Tony Award nominations, winning a total of six, including Best Musical, Best Original Score, and Best Book of a Musical. The show beat several strong competitors in many categories, including Stephen Sondheim's Sunday in the Park with George. It also won three Drama Desk Awards, but eugh. I mean, George won the Pulitzer, which I guess is fine enough, but come on. The plot of this musical is- This one deserved it.

Shut up, we'll talk about it later. The plot of this is based on the French play of the same name. It's The Birdcage. It's just The Birdcage. It's a story of a flamboyant gay couple who must pretend to be straight for one night with one of the men in drag to dupe the conservative political family of their son's fiancée.

[5:29] Andrew DeWolf: Funny you should mention The Birdcage, because this is actually a big blind spot as far as my musical theatre history is concerned. I'm not a Jerry Herman guy. I've never been a Jerry Herman guy, so I've kind of like-

[5:34] Jesse McAnally: You mean La Cage is.

[5:42] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, La Cage. But I watched The Birdcage just before I watched La Cage, and I was really shocked at how kind of gross The Birdcage is as a film and its form of representation. It spends equal amount of time humanizing the conservative Republicans as it does humanizing our good gay characters that are just nice human beings. They're trying to give them an equal say. I was like, ugh. This is in the 90s, and there's so many stereotypes. Enlightened centrist.

[6:10] Emily Clark: You guys, I'm sorry. I can't agree with you. The Birdcage is one of my favorite films. I think the only way to make it work, because also that conservative shit was very different at the time. It's not great, but it's so different at the time. It's like how I know people who maybe lived through it who were LGBTQ at the time. Just like with Rent, they see it as a huge step forward in representation, and it's endlessly quotable. I can quote every single line from that movie, and it's hilarious. Fun fact, all the songs in it are cut Sondheim songs, which is interesting when you compare it to the rivalry between Herman and Sondheim, especially this year.

[6:52] Andrew DeWolf: Exactly. I do want to bring up the fact that I went in there, and I was shocked. They're like, The Birdcage is fine. Elaine May writes a good script, and Mike Nichols is a good director. All of that is fine, but then I watched La Cage expecting it to be a worse version of that, and then I watch it, and we don't even introduce the conservatives at all until the third act of the story. I'm like, we're just focusing on hanging out with these awesome gay characters the entire time, and we don't have the weird Florida stereotypes of all that. I'm like, this is a better version of that. I love Robin Williams, and I love Nathan Lane, but I'm into this much more.

[7:29] Emily Clark: Yeah. You can like whatever you like. It's just a different take on it. La Cage has to strip it down even more just because of the nature of it being on a stage, so there's different things they have to focus on. There's stuff that a French play and a French Italian film could get away with as far back as well before. Their whole cinema scene is just very different than ours, and it always has been.

[7:57] Jesse McAnally: Have you seen the French Italian film?

[8:01] Emily Clark: I saw it way back in the day, and it's great. I mean, it's shenanigans galore. I grew up with The Birdcage, so that's just in my brain and my DNA, so when I look at La Cage, the film, and all this stuff, I just am able to go, that's this beat, that's that beat, and they're all consistent. It just shows one of those rare stories that can work kind of across various mediums.

[8:26] Andrew DeWolf: Exactly. Yeah. I just like this one better because I get to say, La Cage a Femme, you know?

[8:32] Emily Clark: Yeah, yeah. People think I'm fancy.

[8:40] Jesse McAnally: But Andrew, you just watched this for the first time like two days ago. What did you think as someone that's just discovering this now?

[8:48] Andrew DeWolf: It's really fun. There's a lot of dancing, and it's a lot of dancing. They don't do very much else. That's Jerry Herman for you.

[8:57] Emily Clark: I think they wanted to put a drag show on Broadway, and this was as close as they could get.

[9:04] Andrew DeWolf: That's not too far off from what I gather with Harvey Fierstein and how he was brought in and all that. Well, I actually have a little. I got my books out, and I did a little history lesson on myself. Let's go.

[9:17] Emily Clark: Well, the production team was Fierstein, Herman, and Arthur Lawrence. Arthur Lawrence, all three of them gay men. Fierstein has been very kind of vocal. Actually, all of them have been very vocal about the fact that he has this quote where he's like, if Broadway is gay men, which a lot of people would argue that it is, it was kind of created by gay men across its entire history, really. You didn't see gay characters on stage in passing in the 70s and then with La Cage in the 80s. Lawrence had a career with being seen as a big old communist and was on the blacklist. Jerry Herman's career had just suffered three flops, and he wasn't really anywhere at that point. He thought his career was over.

They wanted to create something with a message, but that wasn't like with the message bearing, it was the 80s. The way they went, which I think is pretty clear, especially when you think about this is 1984. They went with a very standard golden age musical comedy structure. By going that way, they make this story just a story about a middle-aged couple going through some shenanigans that are still in love. The gay stuff is almost supplemental.

[10:52] Andrew DeWolf: I've rewatched the original Tony Awards of the original, original one from the 80s. The opening number is pure 1920s. It's Ziegfeld, Follies, Arms, and then tap dancing girls. At the end, they take their wigs off. That's the way to kind of suck the normies in, especially in the 80s, where you have maybe an older audience, which are the ones going to theater at the time. You suck them in with that thing, and then it's like, oh, my gosh, it seems quaint by our standards. But at the time, it's this big reveal, even though they're singing with deep voices, and they take their wigs off. I think that's the way they suck you in.

[11:34] Emily Clark: Jerry Herman is a very specific type of songwriter, isn't he? He's that kind of same melody over and over. But that melody is a really good melody. Then by the end of the song, you're all singing it together in the audience. Boy, oh, boy, it's very effective.

[11:50] Andrew DeWolf: It's very effective. That's the way they were able to get their message in, is by putting it into this kind of traditional structure of a show, this really old-timey structure. It's just that it's about a gay couple.

[12:08] Emily Clark: But let's not forget, at that same Tony performance, they wouldn't let George Hearn wear a dress. He had to wear the suit and tie on stage, just saying, I am what I am.

[12:17] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I was curious about that. I'm not quite sure why. I guess I could speculate on the why, because it's 1984, and there is a very blatant message in the song.

[12:36] Christi Esterle: The AIDS epidemic was very much tied to it. It was in the first Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS performance; they were kind of the tentpole performance. So even though they were really successful, like you said, over a thousand performances, it was still that whole thing where no one wanted to talk about it, and no one wanted to go anywhere near it. And so that was kind of their way to express that because it is such a—I mean, it is unapologetic about itself. It's like when he throws that wig off at the end, it's like a big old middle finger to everyone. I love it. And yeah, not like Broadway was—this was a totally foreign thing to Broadway. Maybe musical theater, but like a few years before that, Harvey Fierstein won the Tony for Torch Song Trilogy, and how frank that show is in and of itself is also part of why he got this.

[13:33] Emily Clark: Oh, it definitely is. And I feel like plays, especially at the time, were kind of able to get away with it a lot more than musicals. I mean, there were plays that touched on homosexuality all the way back to like the '30s, but Broadway musicals were a different creature. They’re just so commercial and mainstream. And it's just funny how even in the '70s, it didn't really happen. Even when people started getting a little more experimental and sexual and whatnot, it took, you know, kind of this moment where Jerry Herman was like—Jerry Herman had held on to it for a long time. I think the story is that Tommy Tune and Maury Yeston were originally gonna do it, and then it fell through for them, and then Jerry Herman was able to snatch it up.

Tommy Tune originally was like, "I don't know how you're gonna put this on stage," you know, because he's obviously a big director, choreographer, and obviously very gay. But they were able to do it, and I think it was just by falling back on these really familiar tropes. It's like Hello, Dolly! You know, George Hearn's character, Albin, might as well be Dolly or Mame. I mean, he's big and loud and of a certain age and just unapologetic, and the audience loves him.

[14:54] Christi Esterle: I think that that's something he does very well. I think I compared it to Hello, Dolly! before we started recording. Yeah, I mean, I was like, it's similar to that. It's a vibe. Jerry Herman has a vibe to it. Is there a reason why Arthur Laurents was never the one to contact it or tapped to do the book writing? Because he's like the one that wrote the best book of a musical ever, Gypsy.

[15:10] Emily Clark: Yeah, I don't know. I think he was also really skeptical about it, but I think it was more that, you know, Herman and Fierstein managed to find each other. And Laurents also had worked as a director without writing the book at times. So I think it was just a thing where like Tune and Yeston fell through, and then it was kind of slotting people in. And Laurents was like—I think the story is that, like, I could be getting this wrong—I think Herman played him a few songs, like maybe even "I Am What I Am," and then Laurents was like, "Okay, yeah, I can do this." And you know, he was very aware of how he was kind of controversial, so they wanted the message to be—I don't want to say subversive, but like so subtle that in there, there's a message, but the message is that the show exists and that this family needs to learn to accept this other family. And that sometimes you have to marry into really—shitty—I mean, I don't even think like—they don't learn to accept them.

[16:17] Christi Esterle: No, but like there's hope because the daughter, I think, is—and it's like hope for like the newer generation, if you want the honest thing. I think the son needs to accept his family for who they are. I think that's the real arc.

[16:33] Emily Clark: Yeah, that is the lesson. And he apologizes and all that. Yeah, which is probably why The Birdcage messes with me so much because the son doesn't really learn a lesson in that one. He's just gonna—yeah, that's my dad, whatever. He never apologizes. I think that's part of the reason why I think arc-wise this hits me a little harder, and especially because, you know, Jerry Herman's tunes are pretty good too. I really don't want to—like this musical is my other problem because I love Sunday so much.

[17:03] Christi Esterle: Well, here's for me: Sunday is that kind of musical that never wins the Tony for Best Musical. Like, never does, and that's not weird to me. Absolutely. La Cage did and should have won Best Musical, especially in 1984. But Best Score still gets me. Best Score is what gets me. I don't think it's a better score than Sunday in the Park with George. That's just my opinion. I think it's very good. I think it's very wonderful and a lot of fun, but it is—you know, Jerry Herman has his style, and Sondheim does too. But Jerry Herman really—the feet—and this is kind of the tragedy of Jerry Herman, I guess—is that the few times he tried to step out of his lane and do something a little darker, like Mack and Mabel or Dear World, it tanked.

Just didn't work. So La Cage was different for him, but almost going back to a similar formula—a formula of songwriting that was popular in the Golden Age—even by the '60s was falling out. Even though that was when he started hitting—you know, there's not many musicals in 1984, new musicals in 1984, the '80s in general, that kind of sound like La Cage. It feels like an older show than it is.

[18:15] Emily Clark: Yeah, to me, I mean, basically older music-wise. Sure, yeah. The themes in it feel very modern.

[18:23] Christi Esterle: Yeah, I agree.

[18:29] Emily Clark: But also the music—if you've heard me, you've heard what—you can probably get—like, look at this. This is literally just the artwork from me. Like, you hear "The Best of Times Is Now," and they just sing it over and over and over again, which is what they do in Me, which is what they do in Hello, Dolly! is what they do in all those shows. There's a few other songs in the score that are like that, and it's because by the end of it, you're just like all singing together as an audience. And there is a power to that. There is something tangible about that that is kind of based more on emotion, I think, that is definitely appealing to an audience, especially when you're watching these characters that you really like kind of celebrating themselves. It's infectious.

[19:19] Christi Esterle: But I do think a big problem within many of Jerry Herman's musicals is the second half kind of falls flat. Like, you get to that peak, and then it's like a really quick parabola down.

[19:27] Emily Clark: I don't know if I agree.

[19:33] Christi Esterle: Yeah, I don't know. I think the second act just—they always just use the same formula. It's just like they kind of wrap things up pretty quick.

[19:39] Emily Clark: Yeah, there's no—I like a—sorry thing—but I like them bringing in the Rush Limbaugh clone, and then they scold him for being a horrible person or whatever. And then they do the big dance at the end. I mean, come on. So much for the tolerant left.

[19:59] Christi Esterle: It's fun.

[20:08] Emily Clark: It is fun. It is a great—this show is so much fun just in general, and it's just so relaxing. Like, the conflict is so like milk thin. Like, you're just like, there's no stress throughout it.

[20:16] Christi Esterle: Like skim milk?

[20:23] Emily Clark: The conflict is milk thin, but that's—I think another thing that makes it kind of like that old familiar style of musical because that's kind of what musicals used to—musical comedies used to be. That whole—you're not really there for the plot; you're there to watch the songs and watch the dancers and kind of see stuff like that. And not that you're not there for the plot, but I think it pulls from that kind of tradition. It's like audiences at the time would be seeing something incredibly familiar. The only thing that's like weird about it is that the dancing girls are boys, and the main couple are both boys. But everything else is kind of the same. Obviously, the shenanigans—if they weren't both boys, but it's such a strong political statement though in 1984 to do that.

[21:35] Christi Esterle: Yeah, but that's—I don't know. But that's their key to make it a kind of—everything else around this couple making it traditional makes it like a good foot in. Like them doing the song on the sand, you know, Jerry Herman was really worried about how that would land, you know, when they did their out-of-town tryouts. You know, this couple acting kind of openly romantic, and it turned out it ended up being universal because a lot of old couples have moments like that together. And so that was the way it transcended. I hate saying like—who didn't hit you over the head with it—but it didn't like—it was a subtle way to kind of introduce this new normal or this thing that should be. It's really—I think it's really good as political advocacy in that it takes the old formula and it just does this with it.

And it doesn't hit you over the head with it, but it does hit you somewhat though because they introduce the conservative character at the end as the antithesis, as like, you know, if you react poorly to this, you're this guy, you know? And then everybody scolds him, and they're like, "Wow, what a terrible person."

[22:40] Emily Clark: And it helps that he comes in in the second act too because you haven't gotten the time to know him, so it makes it so that he shows up to kind of be a foil to this whole situation.

[22:50] Christi Esterle: Yeah, mm-hmm. Where do you sit on Jerry Herman musicals, Emily, in general? Like personally, you?

[23:06] Emily Clark: I mean, I know what they are. Like, I would never sit there and be like, "Oh my god, listen to some Jerry Herman," and just like get in my feelings. Like, no. Like, I don't think I really—well, okay, when I was younger, he's great if you're younger. And like, again, those kind of older timeless musicals are great intros to kind of the bigger world of musical theater outside of Baby's First Broadway.

[23:27] Christi Esterle: Yeah, like outside of like Wicked or the mainstream stuff that like your mom would take you to.

[23:32] Emily Clark: And so like I did Hello, Dolly! in seventh grade, and so I remember listening to it a lot then, and I really loved it. And you know, I hadn't listened to it in a long time, and then I saw the tour of the revival with Betty Buckley, and it was fun to watch it because I was like, "Yeah, this is funny." Like, there's some solid—yeah, there's some good book moments. There's obviously great songs. I still like "Elegance" is still like one of my favorites. I think it's such a funny song. But like, I don't—he's not difficult. You don't have to think too hard with Jerry Herman. And I think that there's merit to that, to the escapism of it all. And it's not pretentious like how maybe Andrew Lloyd Webber escapism might be. I think it's just kind of like good old—like good old musical theater in a lot of ways.

[24:25] Christi Esterle: It's cheese.

[24:33] Emily Clark: It's the cheese! We found it! Yeah, we found it. Jerry Herman is very cheesy, but in a good way, I think. I like Jerry Herman. I think the musical theater story would be incomplete without him. And to kind of write the shows he did kind of in eras that were post their peak is kind of interesting. I will say my favorite Jerry Herman is just Mack and Mabel. Like, that's just—I love Mack and Mabel. Love that musical. But then something like Mame never hit with me, but that might also just be because I saw the terrible Lucille Ball movie.

[25:03] Christi Esterle: Yeah, I mean, Mame is pretty much Hello, Dolly! but I'm not as into it as I am.

[25:13] Christi Esterle: Hello, Dolly! Hello, Dolly! is probably the one I love the most. But yeah, I think Jerry Herman's great. But Andrew, I think the only other Jerry Herman you've seen is Hello, Dolly! How does this compare to Hello, Dolly!? I feel like I liked this one better. I don't know. I think I had more fun with it, which I don't know, maybe that says something about me or maybe not. Who knows? I feel like you just have more fun. There's a lot of plot cul-de-sacs in Hello, Dolly! where it's like, let's just hang out here for a little bit.

[25:48] Emily Clark: Yeah, it's a longer one, I feel like. This one felt shorter. Although I don't know if it's actually shorter. This one just felt shorter. Hello, Dolly! has all the couples to all the different pairs that kind of have their own little storylines. This is mostly just focused on Georgina. My favorite part of music theater like this is when I don't have to care about what characters are who. When there's so few characters that I can't possibly get confused.

[26:18] Christi Esterle: Because there's so many shows where it's like, oh boy, they just introduced more characters. Here I go.

[26:24] Emily Clark: Yeah, Falsettos really messed with you. Oh, two more characters that weren't even in act one. What?

[26:31] Christi Esterle: Yeah, no, that one I got mad about. Who are these people? There's a lot of little fun little supporting characters. I'd be interested to see if La Cage could ever be a high school show. I'm sure it has been done at some high school somewhere. Obviously, it's like when you do Guys and Dolls, you need a good boy ensemble. Um, but in a completely different way, it would be interesting to see because I feel like there's so many fun little parts, like all the Kjells and like, the Butler and, you know, the parents that don't have to necessarily be like the best singers in the world. They don't do this heavy lifting singing, but like, could have some good one-liners and some good solo lines. But like, I think because of like the subject matter air quotes, it probably hasn't been done as much as it could be done.

[27:24] Christi Esterle: I'm just thinking, I don't think schools would.

[27:30] Emily Clark: No, not junior. Well, like there's, I mean, high schools do Rent. High schools do Les Mis where people are dying all the time. Like, to me, I mean, violence. I mean, violence and sexuality. We know sexuality is way worse than violence. The thing is, is that this show doesn't really deal with sexuality, like sex at all. It's camp and drag and an old, comfortable with each other, married couple.

[27:57] Christi Esterle: But yeah, but the entire audience that these high school shows is, is the, uh, is the conservative parents at the end of the show.

[28:06] Emily Clark: I do want to say, I think the reason why they can get away with Rent is because like the, the main like gay character dies, like one of the main gay characters dies. And that kind of, it feels it's a, it ties into the Reagan. I get horrible message for children.

[28:26] Christi Esterle: I haven't seen Grease in so long. Is the message that like 28-year-olds can still go to high school or not?

[28:31] Emily Clark: Yeah. That's okay. See, I saw a high school production of Grease a few years ago. Cause some former students of mine ran it. And I was the thing where I sat there and I was like, oh God, why do we all just collectively forget how dirty and inappropriate this show is?

[28:52] Christi Esterle: It is called Grease to be fair. Grease is dirty. We're going to do Grease next week.

[29:01] Emily Clark: If you ever do, you should get Jeff because Jeff met the creator guy. Cause he did Grease and he's got stories about what a piece of crap.

[29:05] Christi Esterle: Can we skip Grease and just do Grease 2?

[29:10] Emily Clark: Yes. Somewhere there is a full recording of my high school performance of Grease.

[29:22] Christi Esterle: We can, we just review that instead. Are you in it? Are you in it?

[29:28] Emily Clark: I was Cha-Cha.

[29:34] Christi Esterle: Oh, the best dancer at St. Bernadette's. Yes. I love it. Okay. So when you did it, were you sexy Cha-Cha or like, or like dorky Cha-Cha?

[29:42] Emily Clark: I was sexy.

[29:44] Christi Esterle: Okay. Because when Jeff, we're going off on a tangent folks, happy pride. But like, um, Jeff did when he, Jeff did it back in the day, it was before they kind of started reviving it a lot and kind of changing it to kind of match the movie more. So originally Cha-Cha was supposed to be kind of like what we would call an uggo, I suppose. The whole thing was supposed to be like him being like, I'm dancing with, but then that evolved. So good. You got to be sexy Cha-Cha. I love it.

[30:11] Emily Clark: It was fun. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so La Cage. Okay. Speaking of like recordings, um, since now we've got, so if we make it to $400 on Patreon, um, we will do a commentary on both Grease, um, Grease and My Into the Woods.

[30:27] Christi Esterle: Oh my God. We will do both of those things. You guys got to get us to $400 on Patreon. $400 on Patreon. You can review My Fiddler on the Roof. It's on YouTube.

[30:39] Emily Clark: Oh yeah. With Josh Groban.

[30:40] Christi Esterle: With Josh Groban. Um, so, so did we all, um, did we all make connections to George Hearn being Sweeney Todd or being hot off that Sweeney?

[30:48] Emily Clark: Oh yeah. Going for like a completely different character. That guy's got range, man. That guy's incredible. I love the fact that he's got like this ungodly deep voice. Like they didn't try to camp him up in a way. I adore his, um, first song, the little more mascara.

[31:07] Christi Esterle: Yeah. I love it when he's like everything sparkle beads and plumey plumes and magic. I love it. But it's so great. Cause he starts kind of, um,

[31:23] ⚠ About 4 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[34:53] Christi Esterle: I think that's actually pretty spot on. I think that's why he, I mean, he's right. Like, and I'm sure there were plenty of people, especially at the time, you know, the 1980s where there was starting to become more representation of gay characters on the stage, albeit more on the play side. I'm sure there were a lot of critics, and New York people in the know who were looking for something a little edgier. So that makes total sense to me. And it's not, and the reason why it lasted so long was because it wasn't. And that's a different kind of side of the coin, I guess. I feel like at the time an edgier show probably is not what a mainstream... You couldn't release a Strange Loop right then.

[35:43] Emily Clark: Well, and I mean, a Strange Loop, who knows if it's going to even have kind of super mainstream appeal? Because to me, it's more kind of in that Sunday or like, um, Passing Strange or just those like kind of weirder shows that'll be more like appealing to people like us. But I really wonder, it's such an amazing show. There are rumors of a Broadway run for A Strange Loop.

[36:12] Christi Esterle: Oh, there has to be. There has to be. It can't possibly be the only best musical to win a Pulitzer and not have a Broadway run. That would be crazy. It was supposed to go, I think, before ye olde COVID hit. I would be the first in line. That show's amazing.

[36:32] Emily Clark: Previews for upcoming musicals in this month. Let's not dive too into that. I think we kind of talk about what the rest of Frank Rich's thing. Do you want to just get to like Ben Brantley's next one?

[36:41] Christi Esterle: Okay. So New York Times, Ben Brantley said of the 2004 revival production, actually even the most convention-bound theatergoers won't need to fortify themselves with alcohol to remain shock-free through this alternatively garish and pallid production of La Cage, which features a book by Harvey Fierstein and is directed by Jerry Zaks. La Cage became a hit in 1983 after all as a cheerfully square family-friendly entertainment in risqué clothing. It was an old-fashioned celebration of an old-fashioned marriage, which, oh, with the added Philip that the partners both happened to be men and worked in a trans nightclub in St. Tropez. Still, La Cage has the ingredients that tourists have traditionally expected from a big Broadway show delivered with helpful, um, implicit labels.

[37:49] Christi Esterle: La Cage, every dancer emerges as a wry, hardy individual from the whip-cracking dominatrix to the Nicole Kidman lookalike whose specialty is just to stand there and look beautiful. Would that the rest of the show were that witty?

[38:19] Emily Clark: Yikes. I mean, I feel like that's diminishing of Harvey Fierstein's book, which is much more than just like sitcom giggles. I mean, there's some of that. It's kind of the nature of the medium. It's kind of supposed to be that. But, you know, if that's not your bag, I could definitely see it being tiring, I guess, for some people. And especially what was this, the 2004 review?

[38:52] Christi Esterle: Yeah.

[38:54] Emily Clark: Yeah, I don't recall how that production was received or not great. Maybe it just didn't look very good. Maybe it just wasn't well directed. I don't know. Like Gary Beach, who I thought was actually absolutely wonderful in the role of Al Bown. They just really didn't like him. They were like, he's just playing the producers again. And he was hot off the producers.

[39:16] Christi Esterle: Well, I mean, yeah, but that's kind of, I don't know. That's kind of what he does. Like, that's kind of his thing. I mean, even his Lumiere was kind of like that.

[39:26] Emily Clark: Yeah, I mean, same with his Tenardi. But when it came to the 2010 production, Ben Brantley is like, you know what? Kelsey Grammer. That's what we needed. That's the recipe this show needed.

[39:39] Christi Esterle: It's basically its review.

[39:41] Emily Clark: Yo, I saw Kelsey Grammer play Sweeney Todd in the 90s. And he was like, notoriously, he didn't know any of his lines. And he had his like words on like cue cards in the pit. That's kind of what he feels like to me doing that part. You know, the best comparison in that performance is do you remember when Anne Hathaway and James Franco performed at the Oscars together?

[40:06] Christi Esterle: That's Christine Baranski and Kelsey Grammer up there.

[40:09] Emily Clark: Someone trying their best and someone not trying at all.

[40:12] Christi Esterle: Exactly. I mean, the reviews, they're pretty intense negative, strangely enough. Like, I'm surprised at how negative this was, considering how much this was embraced by like the public and the tone.

[40:26] Emily Clark: From the original production, you mean?

[40:28] Christi Esterle: From all of them. Like, the revivals are always negative until Kelsey Grammer got his hands in it.

[40:34] Emily Clark: Were there, are the reviews negative because they're like, ew, gay couple? Or is it like, this is toothless?

[40:39] Christi Esterle: It's just toothless. Like, it's definitely not like, ew, gay couple. It's just like, oh, come on, we could do better than this.

[40:48] Emily Clark: Broadway.

[40:48] Christi Esterle: I mean, that's pretty good. They don't like the cheese.

[40:51] Emily Clark: I think that's very interesting, though, because it does show that, you know, this, again, New York theater community, a lot of the reviewers, you know, a lot of gay men making these shows. And then it's interesting to kind of perpetually kind of want more from this show when it's kind of like, it is what it is. It had to be what it is, I feel like, in order to be that step to get to maybe a more inclusive place that, you know, we're still obviously fighting for.

[41:18] Christi Esterle: But, you know, that's why so many LGBTQ people who were around in the 90s, you know, who are maybe a little more closer to my age or older, you know, have such a fierce connection to Rent. Um, because, you know, so it's that kind of building block thing to me.

[41:36] Emily Clark: I don't know. I feel like it's so harmless. I feel like, um, it's not hurting anything. It's not doing anything to set gay people back, in my opinion. To me, the, the, the, um, um, what's the word? Like the way of getting the message across is what makes it universal and makes it, as like a foot in the door for, for like the normies who might, especially at the time, who might be like, ew, gay people, you know.

[42:08] Christi Esterle: Um, and which is less of a problem every year, knock on wood. So it, it definitely can seem a little quaint.

[42:14] Emily Clark: Um, yeah. I do want to say that this age is even better than most stuff in the early 2000s, despite being like nearly 40 years ago.

[42:29] Christi Esterle: That is true. And I think, again, it's because it's, it's, um, telling a certain story. It helps that it's again, in a drag club where these men have an excuse to kind of be this flamboyant and to be like putting on a show.

[42:44] Emily Clark: Um, so I think that does help. And, um, almost the lack of being super specific about, um, I don't know their relationship, you know, they're in love. They fell in love. They, they, they talk, they reminisce and they talk about their relationship, of course. But like, because it's kind of universal across any couples, I think that's what makes it so that so many people can, um, uh, are drawn to it. It's just a really fun show.

[43:10] Christi Esterle: I don't know why people are always, not people, but critics are dragging on a little bit. But I don't know. It seems like it's kind of more snooty people being like, we need something edgier.

[43:24] Emily Clark: And it's like, ah. You don't always need something edgier.

[43:28] Christi Esterle: You don't. And obviously it was a big old hit. Like there are plenty of musicals that the critics don't love that are beloved by audiences. And, you know, this show has had so many revivals and so many productions. And it's a great regional theater show and a good community theater show.

[43:45] Emily Clark: Like you could do it in a lot of places if you have a good costume budget.

[43:50] Christi Esterle: Also, it's just fun. What, what's wrong with fun?

[43:53] Emily Clark: There's nothing wrong with fun. And the songs are good.

[43:55] Christi Esterle: They're good.

[43:56] Emily Clark: You know, they're not dour. They're not, um, preachy. They're all triumphant and fun. And yeah, like the, the biggest message song is, is kind of, is a perfect act one finale.

[44:09] Christi Esterle: Um, that the audience, you know, you stand up and applaud at the end of, and it leaves you wondering what's going to happen next, which I think is what you want from an act one finale.

[44:18] Christi Esterle: Speaking of wondering what's going to happen next, how about we go into a mid show and leave people wondering what's going to happen next?

[44:24] Emily Clark: Oh, wow. Transition expert.

[44:30] Christi Esterle: All right. We'll be back in a bit. Enjoy these commercials.

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[45:02] Emily Clark: Yeah. So many school stuff.

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[46:12] Emily Clark: What is she doing?

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[46:20] Emily Clark: Join the Patreon.

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[46:28] Andrew Clark: All right, guys, let's get on back to the show.

[46:31] Andrew Clark: The best part is they still have more ads to listen to!

[46:34] Emily Clark: When life is a real bitch again

[46:48] Andrew Clark: And my old sense of humor has up and gone

[46:55] Emily Clark: It's time for the big switch again

[46:59] Andrew Clark: And I put a little more mascara on

[47:07] Emily Clark: When I count my crow's feet again

[47:13] Andrew Clark: And tire of this perpetual marathon

[47:19] Emily Clark: I put down the John seat again

[47:25] Andrew Clark: And put a little more mascara on

[47:31] Christi Esterle: Let's talk about Albin's I Want song, Mascara or A Little More Mascara, which is incredible, and also frames Albin as the central character, the main character here.

[47:46] Emily Clark: Definitely.

[47:48] Christi Esterle: I love that moment. I love him, you know, in front of his vanity. It's, yeah, I mean, it's like Dolly coming out and doing I Put My Hand In. It's like, here's who I am. Here's what I'm about. Here's where I stay. You know exactly who he is by that song.

[48:12] Emily Clark: And, you know, my, you know, gonna be 40 in a few years ass can really relate to a lot of this song. This whole, like, I suck it in. I put some makeup on and then, like, hey, I can take on the world. So I think that's a pretty fun, relatable feeling.

[48:31] Christi Esterle: I like the build the song has as well. It's, I think it's really good.

[48:34] Emily Clark: And visually, the build too, like the transformation on stage. And the, I just imagine, like, if you get one of those things wrong, like in the setup of yourself, you're just kind of fucked for the rest of the song. And like that, that is a physical transformation. And it's incredible.

[48:54] Christi Esterle: Yeah, I really love that song.

[48:57] Emily Clark: Oh, yeah, I can't think of another I Want song that really functions in the same way.

[49:04] Christi Esterle: Well, I mean, I don't even know if it's an I Want song, because I mean, I guess it's just, it's more like, this is what I, this is what I do.

[49:12] Emily Clark: This is the, this is the I am.

[49:15] Christi Esterle: I am, yeah, not quite I am what I am. But like, because it's him just being like, this is my routine to, this is how I get into this look that you see me and have. And then you kind of just know who the character is.

[49:30] Emily Clark: Yeah.

[49:30] Christi Esterle: You know, through that, through that moment and through that song.

[49:35] Emily Clark: Yeah, it doesn't really need to be an I Want song, because none of the characters necessarily want anything except for the son, I guess, who wants them to pretend to be something they aren't.

[49:46] Christi Esterle: I think it's different, too, sometimes when your characters are middle aged, you know, kind of at less of like an ingenue place, because they're very, very happy with their lives. They're very settled in their lives. And the shenanigans come from, you know, trying to accommodate their kid.

[50:26] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: I like wistful and nostalgic kind of tunes almost, which I like a lot.

[50:33] Christi Esterle: I guess we should talk about "With Anne on My Arm" next, then.

[50:38] Emily Clark: And also the "With You on My Arm," like, much cuter reprise right afterwards.

[50:50] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: Those both of those songs are just like that old school kind of musical theater where it really is like hitting you over the head with like kind of the same thing over and over again. But then it makes it, I think, a little more triumphant when you see Georges and Albin do "With You on My Arm" and, you know, they're dancing in there. But the thing about...

[52:12] Christi Esterle: Here's more what bothers me a little bit about this musical. Everything that Jean-Michel describes Anne as is very superficial. She makes me feel handsome and tall and that I'm charming and all that. Whereas that means nothing to people that just met each other. And if you're younger, maybe it means something to a lot of folks. When that's younger, that means a lot less than when you're a little older, been with each other 20 years, and that's still true. So that immediate juxtaposition is super, like, heartstring-pulling.

[52:44] Emily Clark: Yeah, and I think there's a difference when you're in your early 20s. Again, it's an old musical trope. Like, I've met this girl and I've fallen in love and we're going to get married, you know, parents be damned. And I think that is a relatable thing as the leads of a musical. And it is fun to get it from kind of the parents' perspective of being like, okay, well, you're going to do this thing, so let's figure out how we make this happen. Because we're supportive. And I think that's kind of an interesting take. As for people who are not parents, and I don't think any of us really intends to be anytime soon, would we rearrange our entire lives for kids that we don't intend to have? I can't imagine myself doing that. I'd be like, no, you little shit. Don't bring them then.

[53:35] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: No, I, well, I could say, my mom mentioned that I saw her on Memorial Day and she kind of made some passing comment about it. I know that my mom would go through any fucking shenanigans I wanted if I was like, this really means something to me. I know in a heartbeat she would do it, even if she didn't understand it. So I think it's actually pretty relatable. I think it's kind of more common than one would think. And, you know, I think we would hope that most of our parents, our parents in the world in general, hopefully, would be supportive of their kids' nonsense, even if they know their kids' nonsense might be a passing phase or just like not, you know, he's just got a girly leg since like one night trying to convince these people, you know, the stakes aren't so high in this show, which again I think helps.

[54:26] Christi Esterle: I think what's a little bit makes him the bad guy, the son, is that he wants his mom, who has never really interacted with him at all, to come and his other father to just pretend he doesn't exist essentially, which that's like, OK, that's a little bit far, don't you think?

[54:45] Emily Clark: It's a harsh lesson. And, you know, it makes me kind of wonder because like we're talking about a musical, sorry, a movie that's from the 70s and a play that's from the 70s and a musical in the 1980s, how nonexistent same-sex parent representation was in media. So I almost kind of, look, we wouldn't have conflict if the son didn't do this stuff and then he learns his lesson at the end. However, I think it is really interesting because like how is he supposed to act? Like how is this, this isn't, obviously this isn't right that he does this, but it's like he's kind of like what other option do I have? And the other option is like don't do it. But I don't know. I just think it's an interesting kind of thought experiment.

Like what do kids from this era who have same-sex parents, like how much are they, how much do you even talk about it at all I think is kind of an interesting thought thing because like I knew, I definitely knew kids growing up who had same-sex parents, but it was a thing that we didn't really like, definitely not a thing like that my parents talked to me about until I got older. I just thought, oh, it's my friend's mom and my friend's mom's best friend.

[56:00] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: Yeah, I don't know. I think it's a good, I guess, template for kids who might be of same-sex parents to teach them what the lesson is, like what the right thing to do is. There is a scene in The Birdcage that I wish was in La Cage because it is probably one of Robin Williams' best-delivered lines I've ever seen where it's like I had to spend like 10 years of my life trying to figure out who I was and I'm not going to go back pretending that I'm not this person. Fuck you. Fuck the senator. I don't give a damn what he thinks.

[56:36] Christi Esterle: Exactly.

[56:37] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: I want that moment so badly for Georges or Alban to have in this movie. I just really want someone to be like, you know what? Fuck you, kid. Even for a brief moment, it's like it took me a while to figure myself out and you're going to throw me back in?

[56:52] Emily Clark: I think that's kind of what the end of "I Am What I Am" is because I think there's that confrontation with him right before that. And then that song, that other song, what is it? "Look Over There." That's what that song is. That's Georges being like no one has loved you like this person has loved you like a parent. And then it's very sweet when he reprises and kind of apologizes. So yeah, I think it's more like a morality tale almost in that sense. It's giving you a good archetype to teach you a lesson because then kids of gay parents can watch it with their gay parents or kids of any parents really can watch it and go, that's not right that the son's doing this. And then, yeah.

[57:39] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: I like it. Incredible. All right. We still have songs to talk about. I don't know how we went down this rabbit hole. I'm not against it. I love rabbit holes so much. Let's talk about "Song on the Sand."

[58:52] ♪ Musical number: "Song on the Sand" ♪

[59:00] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: Oh, that's such a beautiful song. Like, it's the first like same-sex romance song that I think ever hit Broadway. Maybe I'm wrong here, but it's the first one I can think of.

[59:11] Emily Clark: It's the first explicitly one. That's for sure. There's a few interpretive ones.

[59:16] Christi Esterle: Yeah, it's not like exactly bosom buddies.

[59:20] Emily Clark: Yeah, and it's sweet because I don't know. I love those kind of middle-aged couple like reminiscing about this time that we had. Actually, I think anyone does it where you don't remember exactly the specifics, but you remember like the feeling of it. Again, another kind of universal thing that I think kind of highlights the romance that they still have between them.

[59:44] Christi Esterle: And also the harmonies.

[59:46] Emily Clark: The harmonies! So gorgeous.

[59:50] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: Probably like one of the chillest songs in a very bombastic musical where they kind of take a moment like, let's just talk. Let's reminisce for a moment.

[1:00:01] Christi Esterle: Yeah.

[1:00:02] Emily Clark: Good to have that, though.

[1:00:04] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: Yeah, then you have the anthem song "I Am What I Am" where everyone knows this. Even if you've never seen the show, you know what the song is. I've heard it a thousand times in ten different things. I'm sure Andrew's even heard it a couple of times before this.

[1:00:14] ♪ Musical number: "I Am What I Am" ♪

[1:01:26] Emily Clark: It is pretty great how the opening number is "We Are What We Are" and it's kind of setting up kind of a little parallel, a kind of winky cutesy parallel. It's kind of like presenting it to you like, guess what we are? And then at the end of the act, it's like, no, I'm out here and I'm screaming it to the balcony. And I think that's a pretty cool, again, it's kind of subtle way through character growth, not preaching to kind of get an important message across.

[1:01:57] Christi Esterle: Yeah.

[1:01:58] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: And it's probably one of the top ten best Act One finales ever.

[1:02:02] Emily Clark: Yeah.

[1:02:03] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: I love a good Act One finale. This is definitely one of the most powerful. And again, like in an era of the AIDS epidemic where the Broadway community was just being completely, just losing people left and right, to have that kind of moment, that kind of catharsis, I think is really important.

[1:02:23] Christi Esterle: And I think that wraps us up. What else can we end on? But "I Am What I Am," which is a great message for this entire show.

[1:02:31] Emily Clark: Oh, wait, but what about the song "Masculinity"?

[1:02:33] Jesse "Jess" McAnally: Oh, shit. I love that song, but it's a farce. It's a goofy goober song. That is literally a scene from the Birdcage where he's like having, where like Nathan Lane is walking with the sandwich and, sorry, Nathan Lane in that movie is so good.

[1:02:49] Christi Esterle: Yes, he's amazing in that movie. But I also was thinking about how their little cocktail song, again, just kind of, it's that great partner song thing where every character has a little theme.

[1:03:02] Christi Esterle: Very, very tradition from Fiddler. Every character has a little song, and then it builds so that they're all singing it at the same time. Just a good standard classic kind of trope that works really well. That's all. I just wanted to bring that up. I mean, masculinity is so much fun. It's a goofy goob song. I want masculine toast and masculine butter. I need to walk like John Wayne. It's so funny. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's pretty great. I am walking like John Wayne, but here's a little girl. Actually, it's perfect. I just never realized John Wayne walked like that. I was reading online that Jerry Herman pretty much quit writing. Actually, I was reading one of my books about it. He kind of quit writing new musicals after this because he was sick of everyone constantly trying to compare him to Sondheim, which seems weird to me.

[1:03:54] Emily Clark: The thing is, did Sondheim ever comment on that side? I feel like Sondheim never comments on any other composer, to be honest, negative or positive.

[1:04:02] Christi Esterle: Well, I read something, and I can't remember exactly what it was. I was reading something a few years ago, and I remember it might have been the Fosse biography, or I kind of underlined it, and it was Sondheim being extremely casually bitchy about Bob Fosse. He was like, I don't know. He saw Follies, and then he was like, oh, I want to do that, and then he wrote this show. I was like, what? I don't think Sondheim ever commented on Jerry Herman because I think they came up at the same time, obviously. Again, this is the year where they kind of went head to head, and Jerry Herman gave that Tony Awards acceptance speech where he's like, there's been a rumor for a long time that the good old-fashioned musical style is out of fashion. Well, this is to tell you that it's still here. It's like- A good old hummable song can get you through a night.

[1:04:54] Christi Esterle: I know. I was like, I see that shade. I see a little bit of that shade. It's okay. Cut to Sondheim in the audience biting his lip.

[1:05:02] Emily Clark: I know. Well, but it's so funny because he kind of kept comparing himself to him, and then he kind of said, after La Cage, which was the ultimate of them being compared because of the same shows going up the same season, he kind of was like, I'm done with this, and he didn't really write any new shows, like, ever. But he's a legend, that Jerry Herman.

[1:05:25] Christi Esterle: But Sondheim is kind of bitchy. He's kind of bitchy.

[1:05:28] Emily Clark: But when you talked with Haley St. James last week, briefly, about whether or not Sondheim and Bill Finn have ever sat down and had a conversation or commented on each other's work, and I don't think they ever have.

[1:05:40] Christi Esterle: No, I think, look, Jerry Herman was one of the few musical theater composers who was actually pretty open about being gay. He had a partner. He was always kind of out and proud about it. And then you think of so many men in musical theater history who were gay, who kind of couldn't be. Loren's heart drank himself to death because he couldn't be out. Everyone knows Sondheim is gay, but his private life has always been an incredible enigma.

[1:06:11] Emily Clark: I've only heard rumors over the years.

[1:06:13] Christi Esterle: He's dating a lot of men much younger than him.

[1:06:15] Emily Clark: Yeah, yeah. And I've heard a lot about his sex dungeon, but that's it.

[1:06:20] Christi Esterle: I hear he has an average-sized penis that doesn't get erect very easily from some book.

[1:06:26] Emily Clark: Someone had sex with Sondheim and wrote about it in a book.

[1:06:28] Christi Esterle: That's insane.

[1:06:30] Emily Clark: Very strange. But that's the thing. It's like Jerry Herman has always been kind of very out there. He's very much like the Chatty Cathy, very much okay with the schmoozing and the Broadway of it all, whereas Sondheim, he's the more introspective and mysterious and definitely holds his cards close to the vest type guy.

[1:06:50] Christi Esterle: And their sound is completely night and day. They're just completely different songwriters.

[1:06:57] Emily Clark: So it is interesting kind of to compare them just because they came up at the same time, even though there's not really... I mean, I guess they both write middle-aged women really well.

[1:07:09] Christi Esterle: Mm-hmm.

[1:07:10] Emily Clark: And they both worked with Arthur Lawrence and all that.

[1:07:12] Christi Esterle: They both worked with Arthur Lawrence, for sure.

[1:07:15] Emily Clark: But speaking of different styles, we gotta wrap this up.

[1:07:20] Christi Esterle: I didn't have a transition ready.

[1:07:22] Emily Clark: Oh boy.

[1:07:23] Christi Esterle: You had nothing. What are your thoughts on La Cage Aux Folles and our cheese rating? Emily, you're up first.

[1:07:28] Emily Clark: How high can I rate it?

[1:07:31] Christi Esterle: As high a cheese as you want.

[1:07:33] Emily Clark: Oh, okay. I mean, it's definitely, if we're on a scale of one to 10, it's definitely a 10 in the cheese factor, but it's the best kind of musical cheese. It's campy. It's fun. It's breezy. It's actually a really good family show in a lot of ways. You can go with your whole family, every single member of your family, and someone will get something out of it. And those are important to have. And it's a great kind of mainstream gateway musical for people who maybe don't know much about the LGBTQ community. This is a really mainstream-y, easy-to-swallow kind of way to help them know that our LGBTQ brothers and sisters and non-binaries are people. So it's a great musical. I love La Cage. 10 cheeses, but delicious cheese. Like, just freaking great cheese.

[1:08:34] Christi Esterle: What's your favorite cheese?

[1:08:37] Emily Clark: What's my favorite cheese? Like, in it?

[1:08:38] Christi Esterle: Yeah.

[1:08:39] Emily Clark: Oh. No, just add your favorite cheese.

[1:08:41] Christi Esterle: Oh, just my favorite cheese!

[1:08:44] Emily Clark: I like a good, sharp cheddar.

[1:08:46] Christi Esterle: Hell yeah. That's a good one. All right. Andrew, you're up next. Your overall thoughts and cheese rating.

[1:08:54] Andrew Clark: I had a lot of fun with this show. It's a very, very easy watch. Very fun. Good dancing. I don't know. I had a good time with it. And I'm sure that you will as well if you check it out. That's all I can say. It's good. There's no reason not to check it out. I want to give it a Camembert, which is a French cheese, and it's milky. Like, milky thin. There, because gays.

[1:09:29] Brianna Jones: Bree, what did you think of our discussion and your rating of that?

[1:09:32] Brianna Jones: Fantastic. I am so happy that we had Emily on the show finally. I don't think she's been on since I started.

[1:09:39] Emily Clark: Not since you started.

[1:09:42] Brianna Jones: Yeah, so I am so happy we finally got to have her on. It sounds like a very fun show. I want to go watch it now because of this discussion. So I'm going to give it a French cheese, kind of like Andrew, and I'm going to give it a Brie de Meaux, which is just a cheese that I could pronounce. And your name is Bree.

[1:10:06] Brianna Jones: And my name is Bree. Sounds really good. I think this is the perfect kind of cheese. This is so much fun. I enjoyed it. I had a smile on my face the entire time. I'm not going to think about it a ton after it's done, not going to lie. Aside from like, oh, there's some great performances by XYZ actor. I'm like, oh, that moment made me feel a little wistful and happy, but I'm not going to be like, oh my God, I need to rewatch La Cage. So with that, there's only one cheese rating I can give it, and that is cheese on toast. Because you got to pretend it's masculine toast and masculine vodka.

[1:10:48] Christi Esterle: And on that note, Emily, thank you so much for joining us. You are one of the most wonderful people I've ever gotten the chance to meet. I am so lucky I know you.

[1:10:54] Emily Clark: I love you so much.

[1:10:56] Christi Esterle: I love you guys. Thank you for having me on again. It's so much fun. I love popping on and talking about musicals and stuff with you.

[1:11:05] Christi Esterle: Yes, you are so smart. You are a wealth of knowledge and a wealth of humor and kindness. I can't wait to have you on again. Please promote all of your stuff that you have, because you've got a ton.

[1:11:15] Emily Clark: Oh, yes. Okay. So I am Emily A.B. Clark on Twitter and Instagram and TikTok and trying it. And you can find my show Stealing Focus on YouTube. I talk about musical theater just like these guys. But better. No, I'm focusing on reviews and history lessons. And I'm going to grad school for musical theater history right now. So I'm going to get even better at it, I promise. And you can find me also on Patreon at Stealing Focus. And yeah, come find me.

[1:11:54] Christi Esterle: And do you have any other podcasts that you happen to do?

[1:11:57] Emily Clark: Yeah, I love you. So I'm also on the Dear Friends podcast with Jess. And yeah, we take advice from listeners and kind of give musical theater suggestions as well with our advice and stories. And it's a lot of fun. So you should check out Dear Friends for sure.

[1:12:19] Christi Esterle: And if you guys are going to go check out Stealing Focus, you guys have to watch the Broadway During the Blacklist video. It is like one of my favorite pieces of musical theater content released in the last like five years. It is an incredible video essay. I want more video essays to be made like this, to be honest.

[1:12:34] Emily Clark: That's my goal. I'm turning a lot of my... I'm going to turn my big research paper into a video or two. So that's going to be my project now that summer is coming and school is done and I can actually do that stuff.

[1:12:47] Christi Esterle: Let me just gush for a little bit longer because I'm sick of like white guy narrates over a video and just like, and then this happened. And then where you have this energy, this stylization, this full actor acted out segments. My God, it is better than most videos out there. You are doing the Lord's work, Emily. And I can't wait to see more.

[1:13:07] Emily Clark: Thank you. It doesn't hurt when you have a puppet best friend to play Arthur Miller.

[1:13:15] Christi Esterle: Wonderful, wonderful stuff. And you know what else is wonderful, Andrew?

[1:13:21] Andrew Clark: What's that?

[1:13:22] Christi Esterle: Our patrons. Thank you guys for watching. Please follow us on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, and Musicals with Cheese. Leave us a review. We haven't gotten a review this month. Please, we want more reviews. Follow us on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals. We're on Patreon, Musicals with Cheese, Instagram, Musicals with Cheese, YouTube page, Musicals with Cheese. Patron-only podcast is Patreon with Cheese. We do stuff there. Our email is musicaltheaterlives at gmail.com. Our title card was created by the amazing Jolene Casco. Go send her some love at Jolene Casco. Our keeper of the cheese is Juliet Antonio. We love you so much, Juliet. Put some emojis by our cheese ratings this week. They're fun. This show is produced by the wonderful, one of my greatest friends of all time, my lover to death, Brianna Jones.

Thank you for doing this every week, Bri. We love you so much. Um, thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform and for not kicking us off for cyberbullying Ben Platt. Um, is there anything else we want to say before we wrap this up?

[1:14:14] Andrew Clark: Uh, I challenge Meatloaf to a dance-off.

[1:14:20] Christi Esterle: He'd win.

[1:14:21] Andrew Clark: He probably would.

[1:14:25] Christi Esterle: I don't think at this age anymore.

[1:14:26] Andrew Clark: What an asshole.

[1:14:29] Christi Esterle: That's one of the fucking wackiest things that's ever happened, right?

[1:14:32] Andrew Clark: I know, it's the best, it's so funny. I had a lot of fun with Meatloaf. Me and Meatloaf are friends now. Hoppity tooty, bless my soul, am I right? We made up, we made out, it's all good. In fact, you should all DM him and just bring up Andrew.

[1:14:46] Christi Esterle: Yeah, do it right now.

[1:14:47] Andrew Clark: Don't do that, don't, don't, please don't do that.

[1:14:50] Christi Esterle: I don't care if you do that.

[1:14:52] Andrew Clark: Didn't they kick him off Facebook?

[1:14:55] Christi Esterle: No, he's still on there. He made a post about the 1619 project or something recently.

[1:15:00] Andrew Clark: I'm sure it was positive and well thought out.

[1:15:03] Christi Esterle: He said it was a book.

[1:15:07] Andrew Clark: And that's all the political insights we all know Meatloaf has.

[1:15:13] Christi Esterle: All right, we'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.

[1:15:25] ♪ Musical number: "I Am What I Am" — performed by Andrew Clark ♪