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[0:00] Miranda Moffat: Hello and welcome to another extremely special episode of Theatre in the D. I am joined as always by my partner in all things, Miranda Moffat.

[0:34] Miranda Moffat: Hi everyone. And today we had the lovely joy of seeing The Lion King at the Detroit Opera House, brought to us by ATG in Detroit. Miranda, tell us about The Lion King.

[0:49] Miranda Moffat: The Lion King has music and lyrics by Elton John and Tim Rice. The book was by Roger Allers and Irene Mechie, and it was conceived and directed by Julie Taymor.

[1:00] Jess McAnally: Now Julie Taymor is someone my audience knows pretty well. What do you know about Julie Taymor?

[1:06] Miranda Moffat: Absolutely nothing other than what you've told me and that she also conceived Spider-Man After Dark.

[1:15] Jess McAnally: Spider-Man Turned Off the Dark.

[1:16] Miranda Moffat: There you go, that one, that musical. She conceived it, was thrown off, and then they removed a lot of her craziness, so it's just kind of half a production. But she was a really impressive and interesting, I don't want to call her conceptual, but she was definitely inspired by many different forms of theatre.

[1:38] Jess McAnally: You did watch the movie Across the Universe, which was directed by her, and you can definitely feel her styling all over that, for better and for worse. She also did the incredible Titus film starring Anthony Hopkins, which has, I think, a lot of her most successful choices ever made in it. She's also done theatre so often, and it was a bold choice in the 90s for Disney to approach her about this, and I think you can kind of tell why this stands kind of above it all as far as Disney animated films turned into musicals.

[2:13] Miranda Moffat: I would say so. I mean, I know one of the things about her that you told me that I was particularly impressed by is that she basically conceived all of the costumes, and if you look in the Playbill, costume design, Julie Taymor, mask and puppet design, Julie Taymor and Michael Curry, her fingerprints are definitely all over it, and I think the puppetry and the costumes to basically translate a lion into a physical, you know, like a human-lion hybrid thing that you understand what's going on is one of the more well-done parts of the show.

[2:47] Jess McAnally: I agree, but also a lot of the literalism is kind of removed from this. You could see this as a story of literal lions, or you could see this as a king whose tribe is represented by lion iconography. It could be that that is one way you can interpret this because it is so non-literal, and one of the important things, like, if you come into The Lion King, you're like, what is this going to be? Is this going to be furry mascot heads? Like, the people in the production, she's like, no, we're going to do animals, but you must always see the person behind the animal. We are not going to hide them. We are going to make them a part of the costuming because that is the only way you can see the humanity in this story.

[3:31] Miranda Moffat: Yeah, and I think the costume part of it is, like I said, particularly well-integrated. The makeup that they put on the human actors in addition to the costume, I think, is good at portraying exactly what they are supposed to be in an interesting way. I think Scar's costume in particular is probably my favorite. I love the lion, him and Mufasa, and the way that the lion heads basically come down over their face when they're being particularly animalistic. I really appreciated that. I think overall, very cool.

[4:06] Jess McAnally: Something I noticed on this watch, specifically about Scar's head, it no longer moves in Act 2. It stays firmly on the top of his head because it is now his crown. I know that it is electronic, and it's usually in his cane, which is why they give Scar a cane to basically control the mask. But I was very paying attention to the internal logic because I know Julie Taymor thinks about things like that, which is why when Mufasa talks about the kings of the past, he removes his crown to show honor to them. There's so much going on here, and I know she's inspired by so many different cultures, a lot of Asian cultures and Asian theatrical styles too, where I'm very much pointing Leo from the meme, just like, hey, I know what you're doing there. I see what you're doing there.

[5:01] Miranda Moffat: It's rare. This is a show we've both seen three times at this point, where I'm still surprised by a stagecraft thing that's going on. Not anything incredible or masterful, but just a practical piece of costuming working the way it was intended that I forgot.

[5:13] Jess McAnally: Well, I think you see that the most in the opening number, which hopefully people who are listening in are aware of what The Lion King is and have at least seen the animated movie. But that opening scene where all the animals basically come together in the Circle of Life song as they are presenting baby Simba to the tribe is always the one that it's like the highest high of the show for me, which is weird to have it in an opening number. But people every time are just like, as the people in the costumes representing the animals, especially the elephant, that is a giant piece of costuming. You know, the giraffes, the people on stilts, it's all a beautiful spectacle. People are always gasping and getting chills.

[6:05] Miranda Moffat: It is a very, very cool moment, and that's because of the effectiveness of the costumes.

[6:09] Jess McAnally: Yes. While we are highlighting the genius of Julie Taymor, as we should, some choices I'm not sure work for me. We make jokes about dance breaks with me, but this has, I guess I forgot about it, but a techno beat drop in the villain song Be Prepared where the hyenas just do a techno breakdance.

[6:35] Miranda Moffat: Yes, this was also something that I noted. I don't remember if it was this way in previous productions. I don't recall it being this way, so maybe that's something that is like a recent addition. But yes, Be Prepared is like an extended dance break. It basically looks like they have a techno dance break that looked like it was taking place in a gay club. There are some versions of the hyenas that are shirtless, and they're wearing skin-tight Lyrica pants that are flesh-colored, and I honestly thought that they were just wearing a cloth, basically, like a cloth diaper-looking thing. No, they had leggings on, but it was kind of hard to tell at first. They didn't have the actual costume. It was just like the head thing.

I don't know how to describe it. It was like the hyena head only, not like any of the other things that come with it. They were just dancing their little hearts out like they were in the club right in front of Scar, like, yeah, this is what he wants. Like, that was a little... I mean, Scar is a little, you know. He doesn't have kids, no heirs, for a reason.

[7:45] Jess McAnally: I thought the Scar was fabulous, and this is a complicated show to put on, technically, and something that you brought up to me was that the Scar and Mufasa actors sounded more difficult to hear than the other actors, and this is me putting my tinfoil hypothesis together. I think it has to do with the mechanics of their moving masks. I assume they're done either through radio or some kind of electronic, which interferes with microphones if you put them too close. So I'm betting their mics are at a weird place in comparison to everyone else who probably has them in their head or on their lapel, which puts it a little closer. I heard some interference a little bit with Mufasa's. There was some static with it, and I kind of find that stuff cool because I like figuring out how theater things work.

[8:39] Miranda Moffat: Yeah, I mean, I didn't have an issue with it or anything. It's more just like, oh, do they need to turn their mics up or something? But yeah, that's also incredibly probable. I think one of the other things that I... I don't remember if I had this thought when we saw it a few years ago, but for me, it almost does not feel like a musical in the first act. There are a few musical numbers interspersed, but it's mostly dance numbers, and there's also songs that take place in another language as well, kind of mixed in there. But for the most part, to me, it felt more like a play in the first act that had a few little numbers in it, similar to like a Disney movie, where a Disney movie like that is a movie that just happens to have songs.

And this felt like a play that just happened to have some songs in it. But I think that changed for me in the second act, where it felt more like a traditional musical. There were more musical numbers, more frequently, more back-to-back that were the primary movers of the story.

[9:36] Jess McAnally: So that was the one thing that I thought was like a little weird. Things are pretty jam-packed in the second act, but that's not necessarily abnormal. I prefer that to the Frozen the musical format of we're shoving in so many songs to get you to have Let It Go as the act one closer, where it feels like it's dragging a story we already know. I kind of like that it's world-building songs that they put in there. Like we get to see the hyenas or the lionesses hunt and how the circle of life actively works. And we get to have one of the most incredible father-son moments in a musical in He Lives in You, which is like this beautiful number brand new to this stage show, written by Lebo M for an album called Rhythm of the Pride Lands. And then it got interspersed into The Lion King II, which was a sexual awakening for many young women of the time. And now it lives forever in this musical where it is done best.

[10:35] Miranda Moffat: I wanted to bring up in act one, um, sometimes I forget how crazy Julie Taymor is, and it works hand in hand with the genius. Um, and the crazier elements came out in I Just Can't Wait to be King, where those costumes, they don't represent any animal I can think of in any animal kingdom. They are just wacky, strange theatrical masks all over the place.

[11:00] Jess McAnally: I mean, my best guess with that, just because there are a lot of things I don't know, is that there are a lot of pieces of the musical that are directly inspired by African art, lineage or tradition that I'm maybe just not aware of. So that could have been a part of it, or it could have just been some cool new other third thing. I don't know. Um, but yeah, basically like they, during that song break, the two kid actors get up on these like bird-looking things, but they're not really birds that they're like kind of controlling the movement of. Um, it does feel a little bit like some mix between a dream and a nightmare watching that. But yeah, it was cool.

[11:36] Miranda Moffat: Um, one other thing that, um, I think came up during that scene and maybe other scenes is that the only, the only animal that has like a basically fourth wall break with its human counterpart is Zazu, where like the bird, the puppet bird, like recognizes that it's being controlled by a human.

[11:57] Jess McAnally: And it even like attacks the human actor at one point. And they also get separated. Like that happens a couple times during the musical. And I just wondered why Zazu specifically, like is the only one that has a fourth wall break where we're like recognizing that the puppet and the animal versus the human are like two different features.

[12:13] Miranda Moffat: I kind of like that as intentional world building because in theory, he's dressed as a butler. He's a butler with a bird. And yeah, the bird's mouth moves and all that. But I'm just assuming like, you know, he serves the king who wears a lion crown, which you, which is why seeing all the human aspects, these are just the roles that they are destined to play in this fictionalized human hybrid animal thing, where these are the clothing that they put on. And I kind of like that as like weird.

[12:44] Jess McAnally: And also, the kids love it, and the kids laugh. And they are giggling at the goofy man making the funny noises. That is true. This musical also makes me think of like, that the cliché or the trope of like, the kid in school being cast as like a tree in a musical, you know, where like, literally, there are adults that are playing like, grass at certain points. And you like, the different physical elements, like literally, basically playing a tree, which I think is kind of funny, but I mean, used to great effect. I think there's also a scene where the grass or the like, leaves and stuff are like, sentient at some point where they like, interact with the animal characters, which is also like, another kind of weird fourth wall break moment, where it's like, oh, you're meant to be some inanimate object, but actually you are interacting in the world, which I think is interesting.

Something I couldn't remember, which you said was also that way, in the movie was that Hakuna Matata takes place literally directly after Mufasa dies, which is crazy to me. Because why are we moving from like, oh, my dad is dead, right into like, oh, man, it's okay. Everything's all right. Like, moving just he just moved on way too quick from that. That was, I guess maybe I just didn't remember that from the movie. It's been a while. I mean, the movie does a really good job and framing it as repression, and kind of like these bad characters coming in and being like, hey, you did a bad thing. Forget about it. It's all good. And it's an unhealthy way of living. A lot of people say that Lion King is based on Hamlet.

And there's almost nothing to do with Hamlet aside from Uncle kills King. That's, that's kind of where it stops. Because Hamlet doesn't really, there's not a complex thing. He doesn't marry Mufasa's wife. There's a lot of, but it does represent Prince Hal, who leaves his lineage behind to go hang out and get drunk with friends in the middle of nowhere, and under a pseudonym. And eventually, he has to go back and take his rightful place as king and leave all those friends behind as a rejuvenated person, no longer the person living on the outskirts, drinking beer and having a blast. He has to regain responsibility. And then Falstaff is left behind and dies alone. Read Shakespeare, kids. It's good for you.

[15:14] Jess McAnally: As far as other things, I wanted to ask you about the Act One opener, one by one, which when I saw this as a kid was always a number I love, but always confused me. Act Two, I'm sorry. Where you have people in traditional African clothes coming up through the aisles with these flags and singing. And it's you and I, I told you once that every Act Two opening song is just kind of filler for people to find their seats and come in late. And you turned to me and was like, what's this one? I'm like, literally, wait till you see it. It is literally nothing to do with the plot. But I'm also curious, why is it there, aside from let's sit down and have a great number? Because I guess you kind of need something upbeat and fun because most of Act Two is a bummer.

Kind of. I took it exactly that way when they started to, I mean, it's like just a cool, fun song. And it's just like, oh, we're killing time. Because I mean, they started that song before they even put the lights down. It's basically the production being like, all right, kids, time to get to your seats, because there's going to be a lot of plot filled into the next several minutes. So get to where you got to get. And that's basically how I took it. You're right. It has literally no relevance to the larger plot, basically, other than just like, yay, nice song.

[16:39] Jess McAnally: My one last thought that I had, which I think I asked you while we were sitting there, I was like, is Scar always white? And you were like, yeah, pretty much. And all I can say is that tracks. I mean, I think that fits well for this story. You don't want to have that character be another Black person. I think that kind of takes away from the narrative that Julie Taymor is intentionally putting in there. One of the most famous Scars was Patrick Page. And with respect to the actor playing Scar this time, it seemed like our Scar was a tenor and he was struggling with those lower notes a little bit. He was very good, but and very out there. But yeah, that would be my one complaint. Actually, I'll throw another complaint.

I thought the kids in this musical were incredible. I really liked the kid that played young Simba. He was not trying to replicate Jonathan Taylor Thomas's delivery. He was doing him his own way. And that felt so new. And I really liked it. And Nala was just this really fantastic singer and really nailed all her moments. And then much like the animated movie, as soon as we get to adult Simba, just that energy is gone. It's really a bummer when that movie becomes Matthew Broderick's movie in the second half. And I still every adult Simba is just not as fun as kid Simba, Simba sadly. I mean, obviously, because he's coming in. I mean, the adult actor has the task of trying to create some sense of continuity with the character and that they show up being pretty like they are an adult now, but they are still very naive and still very much acting childlike, which I think can be difficult to portray without it like, I don't know, being strange or off putting.

Another thing I thought of was in the timeline of this, if we're okay, if we're taking it literally, and we're thinking that they're lions, lions mature really quickly. And I'm like, I wonder if in the lion world, the jump between young Simba and adult Simba is like a few months to when they reach maturity, which makes everything that happens a little bit creepier if you really think about it too much. So forget I said that. Don't think about it. I mean, that was the joke that the animators wrote. That's why the puberty bridge in Hakuna Matata where, you know, the shot where he just turned. Yeah, lions get really old really fast. It just shows that what a shitty King Scar was that in three months, it's almost like the Trump second term, like everything's falling to shit in three months. Oh, no, we have no food, no water, we're gonna starve to death.

[19:17] Jess McAnally: That's kind of what I mean. That's what I mean. Like, if you think about it literally like that, it almost ruins everything for you. Because it's like, they just like, you know, Scar's creeping on Nala at a certain point. And then they have a kid by the end of it. And you're like, what is the actual lion timeline for this? Yeah, don't don't ruin it for yourself and interpret it that way. Whatever. Stay in the weird, fun, nothing is literal, Julie Taymor world. Speaking of nothing is literal, and this is my last topic. Every time I see this, I think it's not gonna get me. But every time it does, and it's that giant Mufasa mask in the sky during he lives in you. Every time I'm like, man, it's gonna be it's gonna I know how it's done.

It's gonna underwhelm me. And then it's there. And I'm just like, I'm five years old again. And I'm like, Oh my god, that's incredible. It's stagecraft. For context for people who have not seen the musical, there is a section in he lives in you the reprise, I think right in the second act. Yeah. So the reprise of that song in Act Two. While they're singing that there are basically like several ensemble members holding different pieces that almost kind of like in the way they've staged it look like fish moving through the sea the way that they have like the light setup to be kind of like obscuring the sort of like background almost looks like you know, like fish in the water or something abstract and then all of a sudden they put the light on it and all the pieces come together to create like basically the head of Mufasa and they like move the mouth pieces of it and have Mufasa basically talking to Simba which is an amazing piece of stagecraft and I something I brought up to in the car afterwards was like what if just like one piece accidentally got swapped like what if what if you swap the eyes on accident and then he ended up looking cross like that has to have happened before and all the many years of this have all the many years of this production existing like I don't know that just it was a really really incredible part.

That was one of my favorite parts. I think I think that genuinely is probably my favorite new song from there is he lives in you not from the movie and also just being able to listen to Hans Zimmer's score the pieces of it like the Pride Rock score at the very end are like it is spine tingling goosebump inducing every time and you're right you always think it's not going to get you and then it does but yeah that's my big thought.

[21:40] Jess McAnally: Yeah Lion King is the best Disney musical you can see. Go see it if you can. Broadway in Detroit go see it while still playing. It is one of the best pieces of theater. It is the biggest moneymaker Disney has ever put on. Billions with a B. More more money than Avengers Endgame, Avengers Infinity War, and all the other Avengers movies mixed together. Yeah this this show has made that much money. It is incredible and worth seeing and if you haven't go take it. If you got kids they will be locked in. They will be loving it. We've seen other shows aimed at kids and they are antsy and maybe a little fidgety. These kids loved it. Yeah they would talk and ask questions but that showed that they were engaged. This is a great show to see with kids. So I think my cheese rating is going to be well I'm gonna have to think about it. Why don't you go first?

[22:35] Miranda: That's because he sees me over here googling cheeses that originated in Africa so I could try to find a good cheese for this cheese rating. Don't ruin the magic. I wish I knew more about this topic. Let me see what does Google say. I'm gonna say wagashi. Is that how you pronounce that? Hopefully it is wagashi or wagashi. It's a type of West African cheese made from cow's milk. I'll say that because I think that the inspiration for the like the textures and the colors and the culture and the language of Lion King is is very much well rooted in that culture and well represented in my opinion. I think overall Lion King is if you love the movie you're going to love the show and like Jesse said if you have kids they are going to be locked in. It's it's a good time for everybody so yeah that's my overall rating.

[23:28] Jess McAnally: What do you what do you got? What were you able to find? When we covered this show on the main podcast five years ago it looks like I gave it a real item you can get at Disneyland called the Mufasa cheeseburger and I'm sticking by it. How can I not? Thank you again to ATG and Detroit for making this possible and letting us talk to this talk about this show. Our next show will be Mamma Mia which we will be seeing on March 24th. Get excited it's going to be a good time and that will be at the Fisher Theater. Everyone's favorite place right next to the opera house.

[24:06] Jess McAnally: Fuck you Fox Theater. It's not next to the opera house. I said right next to it as far as ranking. Oh oh I was like physically the Fishers. No they're a little distance. They're far away from each other. I wouldn't say far they're in the same city. That's true. If you ever come to Detroit by the way isn't I think Detroit is like the second as far as musical like theater locations or theaters per square mile or whatever it is second only to New York City. I'll have to fact check myself on that one but yeah we have a lot of theater so theater in Detroit is exceptional. And theater history the first place that Fiddler on the Roof and Hello Dolly ever played was the Fisher Theater in Detroit Michigan. We are theater history. So yeah come join us for the next time and until then thank you for coming into theater in Detroit.