This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Kenneth Ferrone: I'm Kenneth Ferrone, and you're listening to The Art of Kindness.

[0:09] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to The Art of Kindness, where we have compassionate conversations with artists from all areas of the entertainment industry who are using their voice to spread joy and make this big spinning planet in the universe a better place to be. I'm Robert Peterpaul, and I'm so glad you're here.

[0:30] Robert Peterpaul: Hello, friends. I hope you're just smashing. I'm fully dressed with a smile from ear to ear because today's guest feels like a new friend. We're joined by Broadway's Kenneth Ferrone.

[0:54] Robert Peterpaul: Director and Emmy-nominated producer Kenneth Ferrone's career spans Broadway, television, film, and some of the biggest live events ever to play on screen. Yes, Kenneth was a producer on Grease Live, Rent Live, and Annie Live. They really need to bring those specials back. His stage directing credits include The Wanderer, Rolling Thunder, and Sistas, which ran off Broadway for a decade. He's also worked on Broadway productions like SpongeBob SquarePants, Mother Play, and Redwood. Find out more in the show notes. You're going to want to keep tabs on Kenneth because he's got some rather charming projects in the pipeline. To me, what's most exciting about these projects, though, is that they run on a battery of kindness.

As a leader, Kenneth believes that empathy and the power of listening make for both a better process and end result. And I agree. I hope you enjoyed this chat as much as I did. And then head on over to our social channels at Art of Kindness Pod and at Rob Peter Paul for more positively unhinged fun. We're forming a kindness community, as you know. Oh, audio hug. Also, a really quick virtual act of kindness that you can do right now is share the show with a friend or leave a five-star review wherever you listen. It really does help in the algorithm. What is the algorithm? I don't know. Now, without further ado, please welcome the kind Kenneth Ferrone.

[2:31] Robert Peterpaul: Where are we finding you today, Kenneth? Are you calling in from home?

[2:34] Kenneth Ferrone: I am at home in New York City, you know, enjoying the air conditioning.

[2:39] Robert Peterpaul: I know we need it so deeply today. It's all we need. It's the I want song of every musical right now. It's just I want AC. But you know what? I can't complain because, you know, we had such a cold winter and then there's always something, you know, it's like...

[2:53] Kenneth Ferrone: I know. We're all Goldilocks, right? We're just the Goldilocks. We need it just right, you know? But before we talk about your journey and maybe Goldilocks some more, I don't know, maybe she'll pop into the conversation. You never know where we're going here. I can't wait to talk about the exciting projects you have coming down the pipeline as well. But from growing up, sort of fostering your love for the arts, I believe at a children's theatre program in Florida, which is now, I think, Riverside Theatre.

[3:18] Kenneth Ferrone: Right, right.

[3:19] Robert Peterpaul: What would you say is your definition of kindness, Kenneth? And how do you think it's evolved over the years?

[3:26] Kenneth Ferrone: Well, you know, I think so many people look at kindness and the default is to say, you know, what can I give to somebody? What can I do? And to me, what I learned at a very young age and what I try to carry forth with me, to me, kindness is really about listening. It's as simple as giving over and listening to somebody, you know, by opening yourself up and taking them in and hearing what they have to say. It tells a person you matter, that your voice, that your opinion, that your thoughts, that your feelings, that your emotions are valid and hold worth. I also think in listening to someone, it's an act of generosity, right? It's putting aside your own personal agenda for a moment and taking them in and making space for them.

And in a way that tells each other that you're not alone. You know, we hear all these stories about increasing isolation in the world and for whatever reason you want to, you know, attribute that to, whether it's a stranger, whether it's a friend, whether it's a family member, listening and just being with them to me is the ultimate act of kindness. And I think we can see it in the world at a larger scale too. Look, you have to respect each other's perspectives in a way. I think so many conflicts in this world right now and global conflicts are just personal, you know, a friendly squabble or disagreement. It's often not actually, the conflict doesn't come out of the disagreement. It comes out of somebody feeling unheard.

And so whether or not you agree with that perspective, giving that person and that other, the respect that in and of itself to me is kindness and just opens the floodgates for, you know, so many other acts of generosity.

[5:34] Robert Peterpaul: Beautiful. No, you've just opened the floodgates for a beautiful conversation, my friend. But it's interesting perspective, respect, prospect. I don't know. There's something there, but I couldn't agree more with what you were saying. And I think it's particularly true in the arts, right? Because we've all worked with people who maybe just don't listen, which can be, I'm sure, very frustrating as a director, if you have an actor or a collaborator that's just not listening. And it's detrimental on both sides because it cuts off the creative flow. And also you only got your sort of opinions and where you are because you listen to somebody. And so by not listening to more people, you're actually cutting yourself off from forming a more well-rounded view for yourself.

So I love that you bring that up from the start. And I wonder, I'm sure there were so many on your yellow brick road, Kenneth, but is there an act of kindness that sticks out as changing your trajectory here in the arts? Is there one that comes to mind in particular?

[6:28] Kenneth Ferrone: Oh, my goodness. So many. You know, you started the conversation talking about growing up doing children's theater. And I did. I was very, very lucky that my town, Vero Beach, Florida, had a theater program. I moved down there when I was five, so summer before starting kindergarten, like very, very young. And they had a children's theater program that worked out of the elementary school across the street from this big equity theater that brought actors from New York and all of that. And they did anything from, you know, improv classes to singing to like scene study, but for kids, you know, so it was really about interacting with each other. And I had so many mentors and it grew and they built a whole playhouse and then a black box. And over, you know, as I grew up, it sort of expanded with me. But at that very young age, I had, there was a teacher named Eileen Loughran. And we actually just reconnected recently after many, many years.

[7:26] Kenneth Ferrone: I love that.

[7:27] Kenneth Ferrone: And she was just the kindest soul and a mentor and to working with, you know, children. And from, again, age five up until I graduated high school, honestly, she, along with my high school drama teacher and a number of other mentors were always there. And, you know, it comes back to listening. They were open. They would hear, what do you want to do? What do you bring to the table? How can we help you on this journey of sort of finding yourself? You know, of course it's not, it wasn't like a professional conservatory program. It wasn't like preparing me for a career. You don't know what you want to do at that age, but it was a sense of, it was a chance to sort of open yourself up to possibility in your own life and in your friendships and in your connections.

And so I attribute a lot to them and then sort of on my path. And I can't remember her name, but I think of it often. When I applied to college and, you know, you go on that, you go on that journey and you go, you visit different campuses and you, you do the sort of orientation program and you're deciding your major. And I, again, had done theater growing up, but wasn't sure that it was a career path. And, you know, ironically, my mom and my family, who were also so supportive, encouraged me to do it. But that voice in my own head said, no, you need a different career path. So I was looking at journalism and some others. And I went to these, these orientations and I went to, I think it was the school of journalism first, right?

As the major. And then you go and you get a secondary school to just go and feel it out, whether it becomes your minor or whatever. And so I went to the theater program and it was a school of communication and it was the associate dean who made a whole speech and then talked to me afterwards and basically said, you are clearly passionate about this. I cannot tell you what to do, but trust your gut. And she sort of left it at that. And it was the ultimate act of kindness. And it led me to decide to go ahead and switch my major and major in theater after all. And it was, it set me on the path that I'm on. And I never forget that. And I feel really bad. I can't remember her name at all, but I think of that, that one day, that singular moment and that singular act of kindness. She didn't know who I was.

[10:00] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. That one singular sensation. It's so true. And I think it's a beautiful example of two strangers, not carrying cake across New York, but two strangers impacting each other. And we all, we all have that ability to affect each other and it's getting harder and harder now with technology, I think, but it's a beautiful reminder. We had very similar paths, actually, you and I, and it really does just take one person to kind of steer you a certain way. And so, especially as a producer on Smash, I know that was such a formative learning experience for you starting out as an intern at NBC. Actually, I got to do a couple of set visits to those stages, Broadway stages, which was so fun. And I might've, this is so bad that I'm admitting this, but I wear this bracelet in honor of my brother who passed away from cancer.

And I, I might've hidden it in someone's apartment, but of course they probably took it away. So I don't think it's in the background of any shots, but anyway, it's maybe there somewhere. What do you think was the greatest lesson that you took away from that experience in how to bring a big vision to life with such care? Because that's something you're so good at. I feel like you bring these spectacles to life rooted in empathy and, and a lot of care.

[11:10] Kenneth Ferrone: I love it. And, and, you know, I do a lot of directing, but I also do a lot of creative producing, which is what I, which is what I did on, on Smash. And Smash was a huge show and it was a freight train that left the station and had so many moving parts in terms of creative thought, in terms of logistical execution. You know, we're talking about a show where you do, you do a television series, right? And you almost create a format or a pattern and you have your set and you have your couple of locations and then you return to those episode after episode. Smash was a show where every episode had these big theatrical numbers, right? That had to be designed and pre-recorded and the music had to be orchestrated and the costumes had to be built and the number had to be choreographed.

And, and, and you had multiple numbers like that per episode, but you taped an episode over like a seven day week. Sometimes it was six, sometimes it was eight, but at the same time, you're prepping the next episode. So the train never stops. So what I really learned in that was how to hone the art of collaboration and how to take many ideas and visions and sort of distill it and make sure all the separate people are talking to each other, you know, whether it be, whether it be the showrunner and the writer or the leading actor or the recording engineer or the composer or the production designer or, you know, the network executive, whomever it was, part of my job was to take all of that and gather feedback and notes and opinions and thoughts and communicate it to the various departments and to do that clearly and distinctly and at breakneck speed. But to also be, again, it's, again, it's about the listening and listening. It's about the communicating, you know, and again, all ideas are valid and just in the business because it's

[13:29] Kenneth Ferrone: Listening is such a vital part of the creative process, and I think it’s often overlooked. When we think about theatre, we think about the spectacle, the performances, the music, but at its core, it’s about communication and connection.

[13:59] Kenneth Ferrone: The best productions happen when everyone involved is truly listening to one another, from the actors to the directors to the crew. It creates a safe space where people can take creative risks and feel seen.

[14:29] Kenneth Ferrone: I’ve seen firsthand how kindness can be a healer on set. For example, during the filming of Grease Live! with Vanessa Hudgens, we had to navigate a lot of challenges, but the support we showed each other made all the difference.

[14:49] Kenneth Ferrone: Similarly, with Rent Live!, we faced an on-set injury that could have derailed the entire production, but because we had built a community of support, we were able to adapt and still deliver a great show.

[15:09] Kenneth Ferrone: And then there was Annie Live! during COVID, which presented its own unique challenges. The importance of listening and being there for one another was amplified in those moments.

[15:29] Kenneth Ferrone: I’ve learned so much about leadership from legends like Jessica Lange and Jeremy Jordan. They embody the spirit of collaboration and kindness, which is essential in this industry.

[15:49] Kenneth Ferrone: It’s about creating an environment where everyone feels valued and heard. That’s when the magic happens, and that’s what I strive to do in every project I take on.

[16:09] Kenneth Ferrone: I think it’s crucial for us to remember that theatre is a team sport. It’s not just about the individual performances; it’s about how we come together to create something beautiful.

[16:29] Kenneth Ferrone: The more we listen to each other, the more we can elevate the work and create something that resonates with audiences.

[16:49] Kenneth Ferrone: I’ve seen how a simple act of kindness can transform a rehearsal room or a set. It’s those small moments of connection that can lead to something extraordinary.

[17:09] Kenneth Ferrone: So, I encourage everyone in the industry to prioritize listening and kindness. It’s not just good for the soul; it’s good for the art.

[17:29] Kenneth Ferrone: When we support one another, we can push boundaries and take risks that we might not have thought possible.

[17:49] Kenneth Ferrone: I believe that kindness is the secret ingredient to great theatre. It’s what allows us to create work that is not only entertaining but also meaningful.

[18:09] Kenneth Ferrone: Ultimately, it’s about building a community where everyone feels empowered to share their voice and contribute to the collective vision.

[18:29] Kenneth Ferrone: That’s the kind of environment I want to foster in my work, and I think it’s something we can all strive for in this industry.

[18:49] Kenneth Ferrone: So, let’s keep listening, keep supporting one another, and keep creating art that brings joy and connection to the world.

[19:09] Kenneth Ferrone: Because at the end of the day, that’s what it’s all about.

[19:29] Kenneth Ferrone: Thank you for having me on the show, Robert. It’s been a pleasure to share these thoughts with you.

[19:49] Kenneth Ferrone: I hope our conversation inspires others to embrace the power of listening and kindness in their own creative journeys.

[20:09] Kenneth Ferrone: Let’s continue to uplift each other and make theatre a place where everyone can thrive.

[20:29] Kenneth Ferrone: I’m excited to see what the future holds for all of us in this incredible industry.

[20:49] Kenneth Ferrone: Thank you again for this opportunity to discuss such an important topic.

[21:09] Kenneth Ferrone: I look forward to seeing how we can all implement these ideas in our work moving forward.

[21:29] Kenneth Ferrone: Let’s keep the conversation going and continue to spread kindness wherever we can.

[21:49] Kenneth Ferrone: It’s truly the secret ingredient to great theatre and a better world.

[22:09] Kenneth Ferrone: Thank you, Robert.

[22:29] Kenneth Ferrone: I appreciate the platform to share these thoughts and connect with your audience.

[22:49] Kenneth Ferrone: Together, we can make a difference in the world of theatre and beyond.

[23:09] Kenneth Ferrone: Let’s keep listening, keep creating, and keep being kind.

[23:29] Kenneth Ferrone: That’s the legacy I hope to leave behind in this industry.

[23:49] Kenneth Ferrone: Thank you for this wonderful conversation.

[24:09] Kenneth Ferrone: I’m grateful for the chance to share my experiences and insights with you.

[24:29] Kenneth Ferrone: Let’s continue to inspire one another and make theatre a place of kindness and creativity.

[24:49] Kenneth Ferrone: I’m excited to see what we can achieve together.

[25:09] Kenneth Ferrone: Thank you once again for having me on the show.

[25:29] Kenneth Ferrone: It’s been a joy to discuss the importance of listening and kindness in theatre.

[25:49] Kenneth Ferrone: Let’s keep spreading positivity and making a difference in the world.

[26:09] Kenneth Ferrone: I look forward to our next conversation.

[26:29] Kenneth Ferrone: Until then, let’s keep the spirit of kindness alive in everything we do.

[26:49] Kenneth Ferrone: Thank you!

[26:59] Kenneth Ferrone: To add the COVID of it all, plus it was the first live audience, Broadway was even barely crawling back at that point. To watch those teams, and again, just the hundreds of people they had to manage, and everybody was respectful of each other. The kids, it was just kindness. You talked about kindness. It was just abounding. It was great.

[27:32] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, and it's kind of historic in a way because you have all that behind-the-scenes footage. I mean, film during that time, I remember watching everything and seeing everybody sort of run off and being separated and then testing and the rehearsals and all that kind of stuff. A live musical, obviously, it's such a unique beast. I know you thrive with a challenge and sort of merging different styles. Do you have any advice overall for people out there on not being afraid to take a chance and maybe take a risk and do something?

[28:00] Kenneth Ferrone: I do. It goes back to what that dean told me in college. It's like, trust your gut. Really, listen to yourself. Everybody says, oh, this business is hard. If you have something else you're passionate about or want to do with your life, go do it. I don't disagree. I say follow your passion because that's where you're going to excel. If your gut tells you this is where you're meant to be, dive in. I never saw myself producing television. I sort of fell into it. I still love directing and that's sort of my primary focus. But if suddenly you discover, oh, I can do this, it's a yes-hand. Do it. Try it. Dive in because maybe that isn't what you want to do, but you're going to discover three other things you want to do that are adjacent or not.

I have friends who are actresses who have discovered they want to be motivational speakers. It's the same intersection of skill sets. You draw on the same toolbox and the same craft. My advice is yes, go. Trust your gut, experience, learn, observe, listen to others and watch how they do it. You're going to form your own, whether you're an actor, whether you're a director, whether you're a designer. You're going to take something from every person you work with or collaborate with or learn from and you're going to create your own style and your own way of working and your own way of interacting with people. Within that personal, unique style, there's a little bit of everybody, I think, who came before or who you interacted with or touched on. It's a little melting pot.

[29:57] Robert Peterpaul: That's brilliant. There's something we said too for getting on the train that pulls into the station and just getting on there, seeing what happens, seeing where you go, the places you would go. Obviously, you mentioned directing, which you're so acclaimed at as well. I remember when we had Cassidy Pope on here a while back for Rolling Thunder, which was so much fun. And she talked about how helpful you and the process were in really, especially getting to the emotional truth and realism of music, because she felt intimidated to, quote unquote, act. Don't do much. Just follow the story and see what happens. How do you coach actors and help them find that place and just re-center on the truth, maybe when they're getting a little stuck in their head?

[30:46] Kenneth Ferrone: I adore Cassidy. I love working with actors. Again, that was sort of a concert-theatrical hybrid. Whatever the piece of theatre you're making, it could be a Beckett play, or it could be a catalogue musical. There is still a story at the root of it. In order to make those songs sing or those scenes flourish, you have to get to the root of what makes these characters tick. What do they want in this moment? What are they trying to achieve? What do they need to get from somebody else? Again, it's about listening and talking and finding it together with an actor. As a director, I see myself very much as an editor. You set the stage, you talk about the tone, you talk about the big picture and the story at large that we're trying to tell.

You go into the character and what makes them tick and what their rhythms are and what their background is. You kind of wind up and then you dive in and you play. You make discoveries and you create a safe space where actors can feel heard and seen and vulnerable to just try things. If it doesn't work, then we identify that together. Or if we're like, yes, that. Keep going that direction. Do you feel that? Yes. Or when an actor says, something's missing here. Then it's my job to probe that and say, what do we feel is missing? I feel with Cassidy, it was the same thing. It was like, who is this person? How did these songs relate to her journey? That was a show that really paid tribute to our Vietnam-era veterans, but also society at large and how they navigated those times.

We found investigating these characters and that period, how relatable it was to the here and now and to the current, and how much has changed and how much hasn't. Again, it was a discovery process all the way along the way. Then you add your audience in and you have a whole other level to listen to and you hear where they respond. Cass had this love story trend throughout the piece and we were missing a really pivotal moment at the climax of the show and a week into previews at New World Stages. That's where I love working on new work. I love having the writer in the room and you're experimenting and you're trying new stuff or with a composer. Here was a case where we all identified, this is kind of working, but it can be better.

We went and we brainstormed and we tossed around ideas. It's one of those texts at 2 a.m. and our writer had a new idea and we brought it in and did some new pages. Cassidy was game and we put in an entire new song. She learned a new song that afternoon, staged the whole thing. The designers designed all new projections overnight. It lit a whole new three-minute number and it went in that night. Again, that's not just Cassidy. That affects all of the actors. It affects the entire band. It affects everybody top down. Again, that's what I love about theater. It's everybody firing on all cylinders to make something happen. It went in that night and it changed the course of the show. That all the way through the finale and through her character's emotional arc, you could feel a palpable difference with the audience.

Dear Cassidy, who's awesome, not only was it one of her first, she had done theater and she had been in Titanic off Broadway and all that. She wasn't a stranger to it, but not only was it a very short rehearsal process, please producers, rehearsal processes get shorter and shorter these days. It was a new work. It was her first time creating a character that had never existed. I can't speak for Cassidy, but I think when she finally realized, I'm creating this. I have the agency to make decisions on behalf of the character and decide how she feels in this moment based on the text and based on everything that's come before in the script. When she realized that I wasn't saying, do it this way, do it that way, and I'm actually like, how do you feel in this moment?

Okay, yes, let's try that. Let's go in that direction. The long way to say working with actors and as a director, it's like, set the scene, wind it up and then get out of the way and let everybody play and then mold the clay from there and edit it. Eventually, yes, you lock in and you find it, but you have to have that space and create a space where everybody feels open to play and experiment. I like to say everybody in the pool because that's when the best ideas and the best creativity and something I could never dream up in my wildest imagination. That's when those little sparks come along.

[36:36] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, you're so right.

[36:37] Kenneth Ferrone: And then it's my job to fan those flames. I'm mixing metaphors here.

[36:42] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, you're good.

[36:43] Kenneth Ferrone: Keep it going and then it's like, yes, yes, that, that, keep going. There's nothing more exciting.

[36:49] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, my gosh. No, I know you're putting up like, I guess the swim buoys for the swimming lanes and you're kind of crafting it and tightening the diving board. You know, I love that and it does make me think of tangible ways that we can maybe mine your brain for how you create that environment. So as a community maker, especially when you feel like maybe morale is low or people are tired, are there any things you do as a director, like tangibly to try and change the energy or to bond people? Like what are the, I'm sure you've done so many things, but if you want to name a few.

[37:21] Kenneth Ferrone: It's as simple as identifying it. You know, if you sense something or their feelings expressed, we've been in rooms or I've been in rooms as, you know, in another capacity or something where it kind of goes unaddressed and that tends to fester. And so if there is an issue or somebody's coming in and had a bad day and like they, creating an open space, nobody has to share why they might be down or why they might be low energy. That is on their own if they want to, but making room to feel like you can come into the space and share, you know what, I had, you know, I had a really late night, you know, my cat was sick and I just, sorry, I'm just not very focused. And it's like, yes, okay. You know, we'll do the best we can or if you need to sit out, do that.

And like, again, creating a space where everybody feels heard and available to do their own work, everybody in the room, it's the actors, it's your stage managers, it's your prop master, it's your music director, it's your pianist, whatever, where we're all, we're all here doing the thing together. And we're all sort of valid and giving that sort of, those sort of reassurances. And yeah, sometimes you got a day where it's like, we had a plan, we were going to do this and this, we're on a really tight schedule, but you know what, we're throwing it all up and we're going to switch gears. Because we feel like maybe we're more in the zone, you know, there's always something to accomplish and there's always work to get done.

So part of that is also being nimble and being nimble enough to roll with it. And I think that's where you still can, you know, you make everybody feel. Yeah, roll with the wave. And sometimes if you go with that wave, like you're going to get to shore. I mean, if you follow the excitement, if you go where people want to go, now I'm having all sorts of metaphors.

[39:30] Robert Peterpaul: It's summertime, y'all, we got to have some summertime over here. I wonder too, because you've worked with so many acclaimed actors that are sort of front facing, right? I mean, there's so many acclaimed people behind the scenes as well. But I do wonder with the people that everyone's sort of looking up to the number ones like Jessica Lange in Mother Play, or even Jeremy Jordan. I mean, the two J's are coming to mind. I have found and I have heard that the more acclaimed or longer someone is working out there, usually the kinder they are, and the better number one they are. Have you found that I guess, to be true as well?

[40:02] Kenneth Ferrone: Very much so. And it's something I'm aware of, even in the casting process. You want people you enjoy working with, and not just on a creative level, but on a company level. And by company, I mean, I love the word ensemble. And I think that extends not just beyond...

[40:29] Kenneth Ferrone: Not just beyond the cast, it's all about, again, it's all those people in the room. And I find that those leading players who have had that career have a sense of that. And again, everything I talk about, establishing an open space where everybody can bring their vulnerability and feel open to create, that also comes from, you know, those leads. And absolutely, Jessica Lange, you know, just unbelievable heart and professional. And Tina Landau, you know, very much creates her work using viewpoints as a tool. And that was, you know, and we had a dance sequence in Mother Play, and Jessica was just 1000% game. And, you know, it's like, you feel comfortable doing this? Do you feel comfortable doing that?

And I was like, yeah, let's do it, you know, roll up her sleeves, and then push even the creatives. No, I want to do more. And can we do this and dance like that? Like, so game to try and create and experiment and so giving to other actors in the scene, you know, that's where I find that an actor who has had that much of a career. Yes, it's about that kindness and that openness and that sort of that support in a room and being wonderful to work with. But that's what makes a good actor. To be great in a scene, you need to be open and giving and here's that word again, listening, fellow to your fellow actors. Listening has got to go in the title of this episode. I know. I don't know. I love it.

No, you're you're so correct. Yeah. And they have those abilities. And I've witnessed it from Jeremy, you know, I've had Jeremy sort of come in and out of my life on a perennial basis, which is so wonderful. You know, my first Broadway gig as an assistant director was on a Frank Wildhorn musical called Wonderland. And we were we were in Tampa, Florida. And at the same time, Jeremy Jordan was doing Bonnie and Clyde at the Oslo in Florida and the cast would get together. And so I intersected with Jeremy there. And little did I know, a few years later, we'd be on the set of Smash together. And then again, a few years later, ironically, I was in LA doing Grease Live, and they were shooting Supergirl on the stage right next door.

And they would all come over on their 10 minute breaks or their whatever, while they're setting up a scene, full costume in full costume, we just wander over to our soundstage and sit in and watch, you know, rehearsal. So we had a lot of interaction there. And then jump ahead. It had been a few years. And how wonderful to be back in the room together on Floyd Collins and on that role, which was just it's such a for anybody who saw that they understand what a magnificent performance he gave, but also what a beast of a role that is. And again, it's just that top down kindness and gameness to just, you know, to quote Celine and Titanic, go for it, right? Go for it. You just go for it. Yeah. And I find that to be a common thread amongst the leading players. But you know what? I also find that and when I'm when I'm casting a show, and when I'm putting it together, I look for that in my ensemble, too.

[44:10] Kenneth Ferrone: There. Yeah, it's just as important, right? And you find these wonderful artists who have such openness and spirit. And I've been very lucky in my career in shows I've directed and in shows I've associate directed to just have these open and giving ensembles as well as stars and supporting players. We're just creating these shows together. You know, I'm glad for you. Wonderful. It's a really it's great. Yeah, well, it's probably I mean, I think good gets good. So you're putting it out there, getting it back. But no, but I also think that sort of the infection, I mean, for lack of a better metaphor here, again, it's not a summertime metaphor. It can start anywhere. So if one person in the ensemble or whoever it is, is a bad apple.

I mean, we've all seen, you know, you hear the whispering, suddenly there's some kind of drama happening. I mean, it can really affect a show. So you're smart to do that. You know, as an associate, you know, I spent an early part of my career putting in the understudies and the swings and when they go on or when you get that call at, you know, five o'clock that you're on tonight and watching, you know, these casts just embrace them or even or even be willing to come in, you know, for those those rehearsals when you're like, well, we can we can rehearse it with just, you know, the this person and this person and the ASMs can walk the tracks, which they do, which is wonderful, too, which is always so fun.

But I find that I'm very lucky and I've I always work with these casts. They're like, no, we'll come in. Let's do it. It's so nice. Yeah, it's just a wonderful spirit. And that's what makes a difference. Long running shows. Yes. Operating at full full hilt. Oh, my goodness. When I was a swing one time, it was just me and the female swing. I don't know if they didn't ask the cast to come in, but we did the whole show like in sort of a I don't know, multiple personality situation bubble. They were like, just just do whatever you want in the moment. I was like, oh, my God. But it's crazy. We do. It's so crazy. And what else is crazy is you've got so many Broadway bound projects. I want to wander into The Wanderer for a second year. Yes.

[47:23] Kenneth Ferrone: Oh, yeah. Such an iconic place. Yeah. Well, I mean, you've talked about this a little bit, how you love the challenge. You love sort of evolving things. But has it been a journey for you or have you always been good at kind of killing your darlings? I'm just looking at as you're moving on to this new work. How has that process been for you? Yeah, you have to. And I love it. I love I love doing big cuts. I love like literally taking like three pages of a script and just tearing them out. And it's hard sometimes, but it's like what what services the story best. And in The Wanderer, you know, The Wanderer, for those who don't know, it's the story of Dion Dimucci. Dion was a big pop star in the late 50s, early 60s. You probably know a lot of his songs.

Runaround Sue, everybody knows Runaround Sue, Wanderer, Teenager in Love. I wonder why some of these iconic songs, what they don't realize is he was the fourth headliner on the infamous Winter Dance Party tour with Buddy Holly, Richie Valens and the Big Bopper. And we all know the Buddy Holly story. We've all seen the movie La Bamba, but he's sort of been written out of those. And he was the fourth headliner and he gave his seat on that fateful plane to Richie Valens because the ticket to that was the same amount of rent that his parents paid for in the Bronx. And he couldn't justify paying that. And he gave his seat up to Richie Valens, who's getting sick. And he said, I'll take the bus. And we all know, sadly, the day the music died, those three, you know, iconic artists perished and Dion lived.

And we're really telling the survivor's story in The Wanderer. And it's the story of how Dion, who is still with us at 86 years old, he's going to a concert downtown tonight. Oh, wow. That Dion is performing. Oh, my gosh. And he lived and he shares the story with others. And he he went into drugs and alcohol and all of that to try to cope because there was no grief counseling in the Bronx in 19. He was a street kid from the Bronx. And so it's his story of survival and and how his wife was a big part of that too. And as as as the spouse and the partner of somebody dealing with emotional issues and mental illness and addiction, not just how she like helped him, but how she got help for herself.

And it's as much her story as it is. I say that because telling that story before and after the pandemic took on such a newfound resonance and that feeling he had after that plane crash. And he continued with the tour. Again, this story has been completely written out of the Buddy Holly story at Alabama, but it's sort of one of those great untold rock and roll stories. But that sense of isolation he had and the community that led to that and then ultimately the people around him and the support he found in the community that sort of uplifted him in the end, it very much paralleled. The loneliness, the epidemic and the isolation and everything that was going on in our world during the pandemic.

And I think the cast really felt that and leaned into that in the show. And it really made the show feel current and now. And also he was he was 17 years old, 18 years old when all of this was happening. So the story's about young kids. It's not about like an older retrospective on, you know, like like a lot of jukeboxes or just sort of this is about the 10 years of his life and a very specific story. And so, you know, to have that support and to be telling that story on the paper mill stage with that team, it was it was so cool. It was really special. And we're still, you know, we're still at it. We just did a workshop and hopefully I saw that. It's soon. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I hope so. My fingers are very crossed for that. It's very exciting.

[48:00] Kenneth Ferrone: Well, you know, I'm trying. It's not a metaphor, but we're getting on the segue to you premiered in my hometown theater. First of all, how much did you love working at Paper Mill Playhouse? Is that where it was? It was at Paper Mill. It was a joy. And that one was special because we were two weeks from rehearsal when the pandemic hit and everything shut down. And Paper Mill really, you know, they had bought all the scene shop was opening that day. They put all the materials into storage. They held on to everything. And we were the first original show back at Paper Mill that spring coming out of the, you know, the audience is going to wear masks. And the Paper Mill team is so supportive all the way through.

[51:27] Kenneth Ferrone: Well, it sounds like to me, just from this conversation as well, but looking at your work, community is such an important theme. And I wonder with new works like this or just in general, do you find that's what's at the core as far as what makes you sign on to a story and want to be a part of it or say yes to a pitch out of the blue? Is it like that community theme? Very much. Or it's a common thread I tend to gravitate towards because you can find it in anything, right? You can find it in a one a one person show, you know, their thoughts, their feelings, whatever they are going through is informed by and affected by whatever those forces are around them, and that's that's community, that's a community to explore.

So I do find that in all of the work I do. Yeah, I to two new musicals I'm working on. And again, it's the same thing. One's this origin story of Prince Charming that people are going to hear about called Charming. And it's all about the princess and the and the how is how is this charming character in all these fairy tales at the same time? What's the untold story behind that? But again, it's about somebody feeling lost and alone and isolated, and it's the world around them in the community that brings them together. I have a story about eight friends in a bar, right? And it's those eight friends, but it's about they've all gone off and lived their lives. And now they're coming back together and trying to find ultimately that it's not about looking to the past or to the present.

It's about being together in the here and now. And that our better days can be, you know, we're living them. And that's so true. And I think that's true in all of our lives. And I think it's what allows an audience to connect whatever your background, whatever you are bringing into that space, that night, what allows an audience to see themselves reflected, even if it's a world they're not even a part of. It's the relationships, because everybody has relationships with people. And so when I say community, it's not just about like a group of people. It's about interconnectivity, right? It's about relationships. It's about how we sort of move through life in this world, navigating the people around us and the people that come in and out of them, even if it's only for a moment. And the human connection. Well, it's so important now more than ever, because we go...

[54:00] Robert Peterpaul: The Art of Kindness is the Secret Ingredient to Great Theatre with Broadway's Kenneth Ferrone.

[54:26] Robert Peterpaul: Knowing Kenneth since the start of the Smash series, I always felt he was destined for major things in this business. He's tenacious, smart, kind, knows great material, and most importantly, he knows how to treat talent. That's the true sign of someone that really understands the creative process. Kenneth is a rare and wonderful person to lead on any production, and the future awaits all that he has to do.

[55:15] Kenneth Ferrone: Is it an actor or actress? No. Is it a writer? I believe he does write. Or a composer? Not composer. Okay. This is so hard. I think he writes a little bit, but that's not really what he's known for. Oh, I said he. Okay. Well, it'll help you out. And the first sentence said, since the start of Smash.

[55:41] Robert Peterpaul: Right, right. That narrows it down a little bit. Producer?

[55:43] Kenneth Ferrone: Oh my gosh. This could be anyone. No, producer. You're right, producer. A pretty iconic producer. Pretty well-known. Mainly for film. Who? Neil Maron?

[56:02] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, Neil! Oh, the best. Neil's been such a wonderful mentor. And dear Craig, both of them on that show gave me such wonderful opportunities. We worked together on Annie Live again years later, but even just supporting my shows and coming to see—at the time I was doing a little off-Broadway show. I directed an off-Broadway show while we were doing Smash, and Neil was so supportive of it.

[56:35] Kenneth Ferrone: Oh, they're going to say while we were sleeping. Isn't that essential? There was a musical version of that. I wouldn't be surprised.

[56:43] Robert Peterpaul: That's the sweetest. Thank you so much, Neil. Thank you, Neil. You're very sweet and beloved because I frantically—I didn't forget to do this, but I don't always have time. We don't always play the compliment game. And then I, for some reason, was like, I got to play this game. And so I reached out to people and all three responded, which is a testament to you. The other two are mutual friends, so it was a little easier. This one just came in as well. And the hint here, in case there's not one, is that you just said off-Broadway.

[57:31] Kenneth Ferrone: Your charisma and curiosity for the truths of the heart are a gift. I'd go to war for you any day, and people better get ready for the magic that you bring to this world. You were born to be wild, and we were ever so lucky to have you at the helm, rolling the thunder at New World stages.

[57:43] Robert Peterpaul: As soon as you said, born to be wild, because that was a song in the show, folks. And talk about kindness. This person's very kind.

[57:52] Kenneth Ferrone: Sounds like a performer, an actor, actress. No? Okay.

[57:54] Robert Peterpaul: An actor, correct.

[57:56] Kenneth Ferrone: Yeah.

[57:57] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, my goodness. That entire company. It could be any of them. They were all so wonderful.

[58:02] Kenneth Ferrone: Wonderful. Okay. Born to be wild. Did he sing this song? Oh, I said he. I said he again.

[58:09] Robert Peterpaul: You said he, but that doesn't... I mean, we had multiple extraordinary men in that company, and they all sang it. Again, you talk about ensemble. I mean, what made that number explode was the way they were jumping off of platforms and doing these killer vocals and interacting with each other. And, you know, vocally, that's a big lift.

[58:35] Kenneth Ferrone: Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. The grit. And this person's pipes are pretty stellar. And this person's always working. They're working now.

[58:43] Robert Peterpaul: I mean, they all are, Jussie.

[58:45] Kenneth Ferrone: True, true. You may feel this person, Joanna. Is that a hint? That kind of is a hint.

[58:51] Robert Peterpaul: Joanna. I feel you, Joanna. Okay. What about...

[58:56] Kenneth Ferrone: And this person, what's nice is they're very talented, but...

[58:59] Robert Peterpaul: I'm trying to hone it down, because I could just say everybody's name, and it would be one of them.

[59:03] Kenneth Ferrone: I know. This person eats a lot of humble pie. Joanna, pie.

[59:07] Robert Peterpaul: Yes, yes, yes.

[59:09] Kenneth Ferrone: You see where I'm going?

[59:10] Robert Peterpaul: Yes. Is it Daniel?

[59:12] Kenneth Ferrone: It's Daniel Eward. Yeah. I was trying to hint at Sweeney Todd.

[59:17] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, I got it. Yep.

[59:19] Kenneth Ferrone: Yes. Daniel's so kind. I love Daniel.

[59:22] Robert Peterpaul: Have you worked with him?

[59:24] Kenneth Ferrone: I haven't. He actually, he came here, then saw me on Sweeney Todd. He came on the pod, and we just became friends. And he's really good friends with another friend. So we had some fun when I came to see your show. But he's just such a nice guy. What a light. Oh, my gosh.

[59:38] Robert Peterpaul: Mom sent me something after he was on the podcast. I mean, what a beautiful family he comes from. And he's doing so much amazing work.

[59:45] Kenneth Ferrone: Yes. So good. Well, I hope everybody has the chance to work with him.

[59:50] Robert Peterpaul: Yes. Daniel Eward, and this next person, very kind. We got one more. You can go see Daniel in Brigadoon right now at Pasadena Playhouse. And I'm really sad I can't get out there to see it, because it looks phenomenal.

[1:00:01] Kenneth Ferrone: Yeah. And they're such a special theater. Oh my gosh. Okay. This is your next one, my friend.

[1:00:07] Robert Peterpaul: Okay. All right. The thing about Kenneth is he's a guy who dares you to try things and fall on your face, but is also the very first one to pick you back up.

[1:00:17] Kenneth Ferrone: Which is such a beautiful sentiment. It's short and sweet. And I have a hint for this one that I made up.

[1:00:23] Robert Peterpaul: I'm going to need a hint.

[1:00:24] Kenneth Ferrone: Yeah. I figured a lot of people feel that way about you. Okay.

[1:00:27] Robert Peterpaul: Well, to be fair, there are a lot of people who pick me up, too, when I fall down. So, you know.

[1:00:31] Kenneth Ferrone: Well, it's reciprocal. You pay it forward.

[1:00:34] Robert Peterpaul: Okay. While this performer wasn't exactly Prince Charming in Frozen, their time is coming.

[1:00:43] Kenneth Ferrone: Oh my God. Oh my God.

[1:00:45] Robert Peterpaul: They weren't exactly Prince Charming in Frozen, but their time is coming.

[1:00:52] Kenneth Ferrone: Is it Noah?

[1:00:54] Robert Peterpaul: It is. It's Noah J. Ricketts.

[1:00:56] Kenneth Ferrone: It is. Oh my God.

[1:00:57] Robert Peterpaul: Oh, I love that. Yes. And everybody's going to be blown away by it. Again, spoiler alert, there's a musical called Charming that you're all going to hear about soon. And it's really exciting. And Noah's a tour de force.

[1:01:09] Kenneth Ferrone: But again, these are people who bring such heart, you know. Not to go off on a tangent, but, you know, that's a project in development. You do these readings, and they are so fast. And they're so about, sort of, you prepare and you do as much as you can in a short amount of time. But again, it's that gameness and those accuracies. They bring their heart and soul.

[1:01:31] Robert Peterpaul: And, you know, there's a little bit of what I like to say, one, two, three, go in it, where you just have to throw caution to the wind, right? You have to make choices. You have to try it. If it doesn't work, you pivot quickly. But there's no time to really, you know, to really, like, dig in. You just have to get the essence of it.

[1:01:51] Kenneth Ferrone: And somebody like Noah Ricketts, you know, just brings his heart and a thousand percent. And it's like open heart, open mind into the room. And you talk about top down and a lead and setting a tone in a room. And that goes for all the aforementioned actors and producers and people we're talking about here. But, you know, you just experience that.

[1:02:15] Robert Peterpaul: And it's as a director. It's the dream because everybody is able to make those discoveries and do their best work and sort of advance the story and the project and the process forward.

[1:02:35] Kenneth Ferrone: So that's including you.

[1:02:37] Robert Peterpaul: Those are very sweet. I'm glad you got three big kids.

[1:02:41] Kenneth Ferrone: I just really good. Your hints are really good.

[1:02:44] Robert Peterpaul: OK, I usually make up hints like that. But I felt like, you know what, this one needs it.

[1:02:49] Kenneth Ferrone: But that comes from you, too. And I've done, you know, a bunch of workshops or things. They are so fast. And you also experience sometimes when someone has, I don't know, sucks all the air out of the room when one person's taking all the air out, saying what something needs to be. And it's like if you're not leading with that community, sort of like heart first effort and realizing that you have on paper, what, 48 hours, two days, whatever it is. It's such a hard balance. So to find those people is wonderful. And I'm grateful that we have you.

[1:03:17] Robert Peterpaul: And I would just love if we could end our time together by you sharing a tangible kindness tip. So something you would love for listeners to do today in their own corner of the world to try and make the world a little bit more charming, I guess.

[1:03:32] Kenneth Ferrone: Check in with someone. Check in with a friend. Check in with a loved one. Check in with a family member. Check in with somebody who looks lost in the middle of the street. Do you know what I mean? And again, listen. See what they need or how they're doing or what they want. And you don't have to have the answer to bring it full circle. Do you know what I mean? I don't think listening requires always responding. It's about being there and knowing that you have somebody who's willing to see you or hear you or be with you or help you. But find that one person and reach out. It's the little things, you know?

[1:04:18] Robert Peterpaul: It's the little things.

[1:04:20] Kenneth Ferrone: Yeah. And you're reminding me, too, that sometimes the response is just physical. It's just being there. It doesn't mean, as someone who loves to talk, it doesn't mean you have to say something and find the right words. It's just you can be there and walk through it together with people.

[1:04:34] Robert Peterpaul: Exactly.

[1:04:35] Kenneth Ferrone: Yeah. Walk through the woods. Into the Woods has been in my brain this whole time because we keep saying, listening, no one is alone.

[1:04:41] Robert Peterpaul: It's true, though.

[1:04:42] Kenneth Ferrone: It's true. It really goes back to it's sort of no one's alone. Everyone's alone and no one's alone, if that makes sense. You're your own person. Only you fully know what's going on in your heart and in your head. But open up. And it goes both ways. You have to be willing to let somebody in. But sometimes it's also just knowing the possibility exists. Even if you're not ready, that's okay, too.

[1:05:09] Robert Peterpaul: That's okay, too. You don't have to open up or let somebody in immediately. But knowing that the opportunity and the possibility is there to be heard, or to connect, or to love, or to aspire with, whatever it is, the possibility is there when you're ready to take action.

[1:05:31] Kenneth Ferrone: You're magical.

[1:05:32] Robert Peterpaul: You're amazing. I love that. I love this chat. It's been great. Thanks so much for being here. I feel like no wonder why you got one in your name, because you're number one in your last name.

[1:05:40] Kenneth Ferrone: I don't know where that came from. That wasn't a metaphor, but it was still cheesy.

[1:05:43] Robert Peterpaul: We'll go with it.

[1:05:44] Kenneth Ferrone: We'll go with it.

[1:05:45] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah, we're going to ride the waves. We're going to dive into the pool. But I've loved this. And I got to say, thank you for being you. We need more leaders like you, leading with kindness and heart. And I'm so grateful that you're here.

[1:06:02] Kenneth Ferrone: Well, I love what I do. And I'm only here because of other people allowing me to be and going on this crazy ride with me.

[1:06:10] Robert Peterpaul: Yeah. Well, keep riding.

[1:06:12] Kenneth Ferrone: Thank you.

[1:06:12] Robert Peterpaul: Including this conversation. No, I mean that. Thank you.

[1:06:15] Kenneth Ferrone: Well, I'm glad you could be here. I appreciate you so much. Until next time, remember, everything is going to be A-OK.