This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Eliza Gunther: Welcome back to Stage Door Podcast with Eliza and Tori. Unfortunately, Tori is unable to join us today due to being sick, but we are back in the swing of things and ready to bring you guys our first interview in a while. Today, we are talking all things theatre with the assistant director on *Rebecca* at Melbourne Theatre Company, Louisa Mignone. A woman of many talents, Louisa is also a film actress and a theatre performer herself, bringing us a fantastic insight into both sides of the creative process. So without further ado, please welcome to the mic, Louisa.

[0:38] Louisa Mignone: Thank you for having me, Eliza.

[0:44] Eliza Gunther: Thank you for being here. We had a few technical malfunctions getting here, but we are in. That is life.

[0:50] Louisa Mignone: We are here now.

[0:51] Eliza Gunther: Exactly. How are you after opening *Rebecca* this week?

[0:57] Louisa Mignone: Oh, so good. It's always exhausting. I mean, we're exhausted. It's a huge, it's when you get into the theatre and you only kind of have a week or a week and a bit of tech before you open to preview. It's always, it's so maddening that time and you're sort of in the theatre. I mean, as a performer, you're sort of in there 12 hours during those preview days. But as a creative on the other side of it, I forgot the other side of it. You're in there, you know, you're doing huge days like 14, 16 hours. You're just in there all day trying to make all the things work. So by the time you get to opening, you're sort of like, whoa, pretty exhausted, but also thrilled. And also it's sort of, I've never been on this side of it.

So after opening, as a performer, everyone kind of leaves. It's like almost the parents leave the house. So it's a bit like party vibes like, oh, we get the show. That's when it becomes the kind of actors' medium. It turns it over to the actors to keep and it's theirs to now explore and mine and create and have, you know, and play with and the stage management and crew team. So you form another little family. Everyone sort of leaves. The bigger party leaves. And then you just have this little pocket of people left to kind of keep playing, which is really exciting too. So as on this side of it, it's sort of like I miss, I've gone, bye guys. Good luck. See you, baby. Like say bye to your baby.

And then you, but then I've also gone in a couple of times this week. We've had a great Q&A Monday night. And then last night we had some sponsors in and had a chat to them and got to see the show again. So yeah, you're always checking in once or twice a week.

[2:27] Eliza Gunther: That's fantastic. I couldn't imagine like, cause I'm also a performer too. So I couldn't imagine being on the other side of being like, oh, now the fun part's happening. And I'm not part of it.

[2:36] Louisa Mignone: It's sort of nice not to, in some ways it's like, oh, I don't have to, cause when you're performing, you know what it's like, you try and conserve your energy by the day. And then you go in, you go in in the late afternoon, evening. It's like you've got to ramp up, your day kind of begins there. So in a way I think, sorry, that's my dog whining. He wants to be part of the conversation.

[3:02] Eliza Gunther: He can be part of it.

[3:03] Louisa Mignone: He's part of the conversation. He understands what it's like. He's like, yeah, will you leave me? But now I've also got a small child, a toddler. You can't, you can't kind of get your rest in the day. You sort of can't get that rest before you go into a show. So it's, um, so in a way it is time I'm relieved that I don't have to perform it. To be honest, it's such a huge show. It's so amazing. And I just adore watching them. They're incredible. So it's really nice to be on the side of it and just watch people. It just looks so, it looks spectacular. I mean, the set, the everything, I'm seeing all the videos and the photos and I'm, I'm like, this looks just brilliant.

[3:40] Eliza Gunther: And then when do you get to go see it? You'll go see it soon.

[3:43] Louisa Mignone: Well, I was going to go see it, but, um, unfortunately I got injured so I couldn't go and watch it. So I can't go to the theater and watch. So I don't get to see it.

[3:54] Eliza Gunther: That's all right. You'll get to, you get to hear all about it and watch the videos.

[3:57] Louisa Mignone: Exactly. And it will have to come around again sometime and then I'll get to like see it again.

[4:01] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[4:03] Louisa Mignone: Which will be good. So I guess kind of, you've made this big shift from being on stage to calling the shots off it. Uh, what pulled you towards directing and how has that changed the way you see the whole storytelling process?

[4:17] Louisa Mignone: I love that. I don't know if I'm quite calling the shots, assisting and supporting, um, all the shots, but, um, I think I've always, so I've, my, my, my background is, uh, from Flinders Drama Center back, you know, babies in Drama Center, we were really encouraged to make work. So that was an integral part of how we went about our course, um, because they were aware that of how tough the industry is and that you also need to be makers and creators. So we sort of really learned, had a really great base on how to make work from the ground up from a seed of an idea or from a book or from a story or anything, a podcast, like to, to, to kind of create whatever interests you, um, to make that work.

So we started making then, and then the five women from my year went on to keep making out of that. And so we formed a theater company, um, in South Australia, and then that sort of toured nationally and we're still, there's still three out of five of us that are still in that company. And so that's all generating and creating work. And so I've kind of come from that background. So when you're a theater maker, you do start to see things with more of a directorial and dramaturgical eye. So you start to see things from that side of it. So I think, um, naturally I might have some of that instinct, but I also, um, do it from the inside. So this is very different. So then coming out, um, from the outside and, and Louise Sarks is an incredibly collaborative and generous performer, person, creator.

So when I went in to do some development on this show, just as a, you know, basically with new work, they might have a couple of developments where they get a lot of people in a room to read it and to hear how it sounds and to ask questions and to throw back ideas. And that happened, uh, August sometime or earlier in the year. Um, and I think I was throwing around a lot of ideas about things and that, um, and then, and Louise, as is her way and nurturing sort of, uh, new talent, new work and other people, um, sort of asked me if that was a direction that I'd want to take. Um, and I thought I'd just spoken too much. Sort of, I'd just been talking too much. And she was really encouraging and said, no, I think you've got a good eye and instinct for it.

So, um, I came onto this project with that, which was really, uh, was a wonderful, cause, um, it's not something I feel quite, it's quite daunting, the idea of directing an entire piece and putting all the pieces together, the sound, the lighting, the design, you have to have all of the aspects in your mind and have those conversations with those different people and understand all those elements as well as performers and how you, your vision. So it's quite daunting in a way, but, um, so this is, I mean, that's why a lot of people start assisting and smaller. And of course, this is a huge show, but yeah, I think a straight play would scare me more like something that's already written and done.

So in some ways I actually enjoy this process of creating work and Louise has got the, uh, the book of *Rebecca*, the 1938 novel, and then obviously extrapolated what has spoken to her and, um, created a story out of that. And then it's keeps, it's just kept evolving. So even I think, uh, yeah, we have five weeks on new work, you have four weeks to rehearse regular theater shows, but five weeks to do new work, which isn't a long time. It's not long. So we were creating and, you know, we have all the scenes on post-it notes on the wall and they keep shifting and changing. And we, and every day we keep interrogating what works, what doesn't work, how the story unfolds, who the characters are, what their journey is.

Um, and when you've got incredible brains in the room, like Pam Rabe, Toby Truslove, um, Steve Phillips, Nicky, um, Shields as the performers. Then you've got Mark Hallwell as a designer, Paul Jackson, Joe Paradise, Louis, um, and Grace, um, as all the sound, you've got all those people who have really incredible brains and intellect, um, and vision also giving, um, when asked, like giving their input and their design elements and into it as well. So it all influences each other. So in that way, it's hugely collaborative. So we were creating and shifting and changing things up until the last, like literally, uh, I think I put the last edits into that document, you know, at 6.30 before opening at 7.30.

Some of the stuff we've changed, um, Pam Rabe, we, we, we altered something that day at 4.30. We were like, let's add this wacky moment in. This is fun. Like this looks, this is going to be really cool and a great moment for the story. So that stuff, like, especially when performers start in that preview week, start to feel what it's like, because an audience is always going to inform what you do. Like you, you don't really know what the show is until you have an audience. So really, and really full previews in a way isn't enough either. Like there are, I know overseas, most people have like 20 previews, 10 or 20, you know, we have.

[9:01] Eliza Gunther: Which kind of makes sense because in a way, like what you're saying, how you've only had five weeks to work on a completely new work that is changing and shifting at all times. And then you get four days with the audience for performance of the audience to see what their reactions are, because you don't know until you get that audience and what their reactions are going to be.

[9:20] Louisa Mignone: Exactly. So it's wild, right? Yeah. It's neat. And I can't, and I've said, I said this, I said this all the time. I feel like creating work like this and you would know is an extreme sport, right? Especially in this country, because we don't have the time. We don't have the resources either. So we've developed this really insane way of working where we just push ourselves to the extremes and it is an extreme sport. And it's kind of like, I honestly feel like, like I did a show a couple of years ago. That was a one person show in three weeks. It was just wild. And I just had a baby anyway. It was wild. And I just felt like for the first time, usually it feels wild, but that time I really felt like I was jumping out of a plane and I wasn't a hundred percent sure whether my parachute would work.

Like that's the feeling I had on stage. And it's, sometimes it's sickening, but sometimes it's, most of the time it's thrilling. Like, it's like, okay, what's going to happen? And audiences are there for a live, you know, it's a live, visceral, real experience. So, you know, that's, that's what you're in for. It's, it's like, there's no other drug like it, right? It's, it's, it's thrilling and that's why we all do it. And so this process has been like that too. It's been pretty on the edge of thrilling. And I'm sure the performers have felt that too. And it's, yeah, it's a really wild ride, but seeing them really like, they're all theatre makers at the top of their game. So I feel like seeing everyone kind of up, up the level of what they're bringing to it has been really impressive.

[10:48] Eliza Gunther: Which is amazing for your first like assistant director role too. Is this your first, this is your first one?

[10:53] Louisa Mignone: Yeah. Yeah.

[10:54] Eliza Gunther: Yeah. So then like to see them all in like working like that, you can soak so much in for when, you know, eventually you direct something yourself, you get all of that like wealth of knowledge that you get to like take from them all.

[11:06] Louisa Mignone: Yeah. Yeah. And it's a lot about kind of guiding as opposed to directing. You're sort of just asking the questions and letting people find their rhythm and their, and what they bring to it as well. It's a real, watching Anne-Louise's work has been really wonderful to see because a lot of the time you would probably know this as a performer too. Sometimes you feel like, you're like, oh, I don't feel like I was directed at all. And that to me, sometimes that means they're a really good director because you think you've come up with all the ideas yourself. You think you've created things. You're like, oh, they didn't really. And it's because they're, crafty is not the right word. They're very smart and generous with the way they direct so that they're just guiding you into your decisions.

[11:51] Eliza Gunther: I love that perspective.

[11:52] Louisa Mignone: Yeah. It's really true. We're like, oh, wow, we're brilliant. Performers are like children, aren't they? They're just like, oh, I came up with this thing.

[12:02] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[12:03] Louisa Mignone: But, but also they did, but also like that's that also they actually genuinely did like, there are, there are, there are offers that are coming off that floor. Like, like I said, like Pam on the last day, there are offers thrown around that when you're working with people like this, that you just, you genuinely like, oh my God, that's yeah. They, they, it's a combination. And sometimes I can't tell when I'm from the inside or the outside who's come up with what, because everyone's sort of working in the same headspace and it's one big melting pot of kind of like ideas and you're all working together to make something work. You know, it's, that's, that to me is what I love the most about theatre is like, you create this kind of family unit that is like some weird, what are those, not an enemy, what are those blobs? Like something that like, like, like a bacteria, I don't know, something that comes together and just kind of.

[12:46] Eliza Gunther: I was going to say a cult and that is not.

[12:48] Louisa Mignone: No, I'm thinking more like an animal in the ocean or a bacteria. I don't know, something that comes together and goes, oh, we're going to, we're going to all work towards this thing together. Like, and that's, I think, yeah, I was just saying to someone last night, especially at the moment where the world feels so divisive, it feels really nice to kind of like come together and create something, create something that feels really joyful. I think that's when like theatre is so fulfilling and it really fills your cup up and it's worth all of the, you know, all the stress leading up to it, all the other things that go on, but that creativity and collaboration is, is magic.

[13:30] Eliza Gunther: And you don't get that in any other way.

[13:31] Louisa Mignone: And it's really awesome when also the creatives and the cast and everyone just meld and work because sometimes that doesn't always happen. So it's exciting when that happens.

[13:43] Eliza Gunther: Of course. And you're also going to have your differences, but it's like how you're always respectful in those differences and, you know, yeah, differences of opinion about how things can work and sort of letting people in their own departments come up with what works best, whether it's design or sound or lighting to kind of, yeah, have their stamp as well on what the work is. So you sort of have to negotiate all those things.

[14:02] Louisa Mignone: Yeah, it is a massive negotiation. And *Rebecca* is such a deliciously gothic story full of mystery, drama, mood.

[14:17] Louisa Mignone: What was your first reaction when you read the adaptation, obviously talking about how you were first reading it, and what excited you about helping to bring it to life? Oh, it's so great. Yeah, the first time I read it, I hadn't actually read the play or seen the film before I read Annie Louisa and Louise's adaptation in the development, and I was, it's so hard to talk about it without giving too much away in case people want it, because I still feel like there's a point in it, there's a point in where something happens where it is still, like last night, there were quite a few gasps when there was a turning point in it, and I was like, okay, so I don't want to talk about what that is. But what my reaction to it was that it was shock, and you don't get shocked by many things, especially something like, something that was written in 1938.

Do you know what I mean? Like something that was, a woman wrote in 1938 that still has this power to kind of shock and go, oh, that's odd. Why did this person make this choice? And how did they make that choice? And in that way, the whole book is an examination of conscience, and how we make decisions, and how our memory, it's like a person, a woman's psychology, and kind of looking back at how and why we make decisions, and where we might have gone wrong or right, or when we knew what was an uncomfortable feeling, that something might have been wrong. And I find that so thrilling. And then I went back and read the book. So I was initially in that development when I first read Anne-Louise's adaptation.

Yeah, I had a bit of shock. I'm like, oh my gosh. And then I thought I knew what was coming, and then it wasn't what I thought. And I was like, wow, this has got a lot of twists and turns. This is incredible. And then I went back and read the book, listened to the podcast, watched the movie, and a couple of different adaptations. And the book is just, going back to the source material, which is where Anne-Louise started, she sort of went, and we were still referencing that book up until last week. You know, we were still trying to mine things, go, what was that line? And so we've got a lot from the book. We all had our books on our desks, and we'd had it all notated. And the book is so extraordinary.

I think for Daphne du Maurier writing that in 1938, I feel like it's an incredibly modern voice. I feel like it's such an examination of desire, and conscience, and identity, and self, like so many questions about the world around us and how we relate to it. But I was like, wow, this woman is remarkable. And also so sad that it was sort of passed off as a romance. At the time, it was passed off as this Gothic romance. And as a lot of women's work in history, as we know, probably still now, got dismissed as that. And I think it was even called a novelette or something at one point. It's like, no, mate, it's a huge, it's a novel. It's a really deep, dark, incredibly intelligent piece of writing.

Incredible. I said this last night, someone, there's a moment where she speaks about older people, elderly, and how people treat them around them, and how they start talking loudly, and start talking like, do you want the thing today? And she's like, I wonder if elderly people, if there's a point when you grow old, when you look around you and you think, why are people talking at me like that? Whether you actually are aware of everyone shifting their, the way they interact with you, and you're aware of it, you're like, that's odd. And then when does it slip away that you don't realize that they just keep talking to you like that, and you just kind of slip away? Like, it was just, I can't even, I don't, I'm not, I'm doing it injustice by paraphrasing badly.

But it was just such an incredible observation of how the inner work, like a mind might work, that it kind of gave me shivers. I was like, what an incredible thing to write. And so ahead of that time of thinking like that, because back then, I don't really think people would have thought about that. Yeah, or written it down. It's so vulnerable to write all these thoughts and feelings down like this. And I think she, like, she had a really incredible and interesting upbringing in life as well. And I think, you know, there's a lot in the book about, like, there's a lot of desire and lust in it as well, I think. And yeah, questions of identity and sexual identity. And I think she personally might have, I think she experimented with bisexuality or wasn't sure of her own sexuality.

Like, there's so much interesting, there's so much interesting and juicy stuff about that in there too, that felt really ahead of its time. And the language, I mean, the whole idea, there's so much floral language, like literally about flowers, but the subtext of what that is, and the sexual nature of nature, like, is so evident throughout it too. Like, it's, yeah, I think there's so, you can just, I can just keep reading that book. Like, I was going to lend it to someone the other night, and I was like, no, I want to keep it, I want to keep reading it, because there's so much to mine in it. So I think the cool thing about this adaptation too, is that Anne Louise has really taken that central female voice, and that idea of her psychology, and put that on the stage, and also really interrogated the female relationships in it.

Because I guess that's not something, like the Hitchcock version, as beautiful as it was, doesn't really, he's not really going, well, what's the female experience? What's the female experience of this? He's sort of like focused on some other things, and he's, and he altered the pivotal point in it as well, to read as something very different. So, and sort of passed off the Danvers character as sort of more manic, you know, when it's like, that's a cheap shot. Like, you know, this woman's going through a lot of grief at losing this first wife, it's not that she's manic, or, yeah. So, you know, you know, those lenses are very different, that male gaze, and that lens is very different to us reading it in 2025, and what we want to extrapolate from it, and what we, what we see in it, you know, because especially knowing, like, I read it, and I just saw coercive control, I just saw domestic violence as well, really come to the front for me as well.

So, yeah, we know now, we have that language, we didn't have that back in 1938, probably going, oh, that's coercive control. Now we know what that is. Yeah. It's incredible how the work kind of inspires, you mine it for what you can, like, everyone's perspective is different when they read a text, and seeing how many different versions there are of this, even this original text, and then seeing the adaptations of it, and then the difference of perspective shift and change, it makes it, I mean, that's exciting, because you're not getting the same thing as maybe the last time someone saw a version of Rebecca somewhere. It's different to that, and it brings something fresh and a new perspective to it, which is so exciting.

[21:05] Louisa Mignone: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so it's kind of, it's a really cool show, and it's, yeah, been thrilling to be a part of. Yeah, and I guess kind of having the time spent both performing and directing, we've kind of touched on this, you've seen the creative process from every angle, how does that shape you in the way you work with actors, and the rest of the team in the room, having had that experience being an actor, and now taking the assistant director role?

[21:26] Louisa Mignone: Yeah, there are certain things that really, really, yeah, you can, you're putting yourself in their, in their brain a lot, like, instead of sometimes, like, but that's also a deep, probably a fault of mine, is that sometimes I won't see the design, or the story, I won't see other elements, because I'm focused in on how the performers might feel in a situation, or might react, so I'm sort of sometimes focusing too much on, so this has been good to kind of widen my lens and go everything else in the picture, as well as performers, but it's been helpful in that, like, I remember in week one, because we start design-wise, without giving too much away, there's a lot of sparseness, and the performers, there was one day where, you know, Toby and Nicky were standing on stage with nothing, and just were, like, laughing and feeling awkward, then they both got on the ground to be, like, something, because actors want a whole, you would know this, you want a whole, you want a whole prop, you want, you want lifelines when you're out on stage with nothing, you feel really naked and vulnerable, and you want to hold on to things, and you'll see actors often hold on the back of chairs, or just hold things, because they just feel like, yeah, when, actually, the funny, the funny thing is, I was, like, from this side of it, on the other side of the desk, watching them, I actually said this vocally, I said, look, can I just say something, you don't need anything, I said, I know how you feel, because I feel that every time I stand on stage, I feel like I need a hanky in my hand, or I need something to hold, because, because you feel so naked up there, but I said, but can I just tell you something from this side, you're wonderful, you don't need anything else, you can just stand there and talk, and it's mesmerizing, you know, like, if you just stand there and hold your space, and your place, and you say the words, and you're thinking on the line, and you're talking to someone, and listening, it's, that's enough, you know, like, it was really nice to go, hey guys, that's enough, I have never seen that from, that was a real, like, light bulb moment for me, this, in this process, is going, yeah, that's enough, you talking in stage to each other is enough, absolutely, like, of course, we want all the pretty things, and pretty things, all the other things will come in, and there'll be props, and there'll be stuff when it's essential, but actually, if you don't have it, don't, don't stress, like, you're great, and the other thing that was helpful was, I physically stood in for Nikki, because Nikki is on stage the entire time, and is extraordinary, and when we got to the theatre, you know, she really didn't know what it looked, because the lighting, everything was so specific, and so pointed, and she couldn't get an idea of what it looked like, so sometimes it's really, really helpful for actors to come out, and they always tell you, when you're not in a scene, you always come out and stand in the auditorium during tech week, and just to watch, and see how the pictures move, and see how everything, and to hear it, so she never got that opportunity, because she's on stage the whole time, so I kind of kept swapping with her, so she could have an opportunity to see the picture, because once you see the picture, and you understand it, especially something that's so specific, and beautiful, and intricate, like this show, then you can put yourself back into it, in a way, and understand what it is, so that was really helpful, I'm forgetting now what your question was, I've probably gone on a tangent, oh no, this, this has definitely answered it, yeah, it was about that, that kind of experience, having both worlds, and it's really interesting, that's such a light bulb moment, even for me, you saying, as actors, we want to hold things, I remember doing a musical, and I was by myself, nothing on stage, couldn't hold anything, just directly to the audience, and you're like, why do I feel like this is the, like, it's not as, like, it's not scary, but it's scarier than it normally is, and it's like, why is that, that, yeah, because it's so, you're just, it's just you, with an audience, which is also incredibly powerful, so that was a good light bulb moment for me, actually, going, oh, there you go, you just need to do the thing, you can trust that if you've, if you've got all the thoughts, and the things there, that it's going to land, and you don't need, yeah, you don't need more, you don't need all the props, no, but it is so good that she got to also see the other side, and like, visualize the entire product, because I think when you're in the audience, you can maybe even discover new things, or realizations about what the director has in their mind, that's now, like, physically on stage, that will then inform what you were thinking it was going to be, and from a visual perspective, so that's amazing.

[26:04] Louisa Mignone: Yeah, whole picture stuff is really helpful, but then, yeah, anyway, yeah, I was just thinking, yeah, it's helpful performance, sometimes I don't see the full picture, but I'm learning, I'm learning, you know, sound is probably something I'm the least knowledgeable about, so that was really helpful to hear how that gets integrated, and how you talk about it, and how you want things, and lighting, like, working with, yeah, all these incredible collaborators, who just kind of get it, like, you can kind of say a feeling, or a word to them, and they go, yep, got it, yep, and they just kind of come back with a feeling of lighting, or sound, and you go, wow, like, that's incredible, yeah, incredible people, and Marg Horwell, obviously, with her design, it's like, what an extraordinary designer, yeah, yeah, incredible, I was going to say, there is a, there is a lot of tension, and atmosphere baked into Rebecca, how have you guys gone about capturing the gothic intensity on stage, while keeping it very, like, human, and grounded, oh, that was probably a good segue, talking about the lighting, sound, and design, actually, yeah, but that's like, because there were a lot of times in the rehearsal room, you know, you're working in a space that's, you know, fluoro lighting, lit, with, we didn't have, this is a real technical show, so there's a lot of technical elements that come in, and help us cut off space, revolve, it's, you're in a, you know, you go into the theater, it's dark, and then there's lighting, and sound, and you don't have, you have a bit of sound coming to the last week's rehearsal, but you don't have that lighting, you don't have that black box, you're literally working under fluoro lights, so it's really hard to feel those elements that you're talking about.

Especially for gothic, like, that is very dramatic, and you're like, oh, hi, I'm in a very lit room right now. Yeah, so that was a huge shift for performers, once you, and everyone, I think, but especially performers, and you get into a dark room, and you have a kind of week to adjust all your performance to be in a tightly held lit spot, and a black void, and then you have, you know, sound coming in to guide you, it's, so they're the elements that we kept, you know, even the rehearsal, we're like, oh, there'll be sound and lighting, we'll help here, but you can't actually, you don't understand that until you're that week in the theater, where you have, really, a few, we were there for most of the week, and the actors have a few days of tech before they have a preview audience, so it's really quick for them to kind of adjust to that space, and even though you'll, you might be a seasoned performer, every show is different, so, and the lighting in this is very specific and nuanced, so it's sort of, and gorgeous, so, but it's, yeah, negotiating that space is, and that's how we created, I think, a lot of the tension, and a lot of that kind of gothic elements you speak of, it's kind of, it comes through those elements of sound, lighting, and design, and, of course, performance on top of it, but that really helps push that feeling, and then you have great people, like we have.

[28:34] Louisa Mignone: There's things that that person will see that you're like, wow, I didn't even think of that. And then that informs things as you continue to move. And that's why the collaboration is so beautiful, because there might be something you're missing that someone else is bringing, and that brings that human and that connection to another level that you didn't even think that you could achieve. Because we think of, you know, it's that thing that we think of intimacy as just, you know, sex scenes. It's just not. It's about yourself too. So it's about how you, the person, feels in their self in relation to other people and things. It's like, that's intimacy. That's how you feel about yourself, how you feel in this space, how you feel in relation to that person.

How does that play out in your body? How does that nervous tick you have play out in your body? Like, you know, there's all these things that you don't think of that an intimacy coordinator is just a good one. We've got some extremely talented people here, and they will just draw out all that nuance for you and then let it settle in a way that you won't notice it when you're watching it. You won't, you know, but it's just there and it's something that you feel, and you feel it in a visceral way. You won't necessarily intellectually understand it. Absolutely, absolutely. And kind of talking on the rehearsal room, obviously a lot of magic is created within the rehearsal space. Is there kind of a moment during Rebecca, an experiment, a happy accident that changed the way you see the story or was a fun moment for in the rehearsal process?

Yeah, like people were throwing, what's beautiful is people were throwing suggestions out for other performers, performers are throwing other suggestions for other performers out to make moments even more richer. That to me is what I love as well, is when people are not just going thinking about their own journey and their own things. They kind of go, hey, could this, could you do this in this moment, or would this make sense? Or there's a lot of things where, you know, I used to do it in my theatre company where we'd say, oh shit, I'm gonna swear now, shit idea, and you sort of start with that. And then, but now it's instead of that we go, hey, you know, is there a world or is there a universe where this could happen?

Like there's respectful ways of going, hey, this might be a terrible idea, but can we try this? And that's really fun when people kind of come up with their own little things. I'm trying to think of a specific thing, oh, without giving too much away. Yeah, it's so true, like sometimes you need to get the shit ideas out to find the good ones, and I think there's never a bad offer, you just have to make the offers. Yeah, and of course, and all of us, like I think I'm a bit like Toby Brain, like I lend to, and Louise is a bit the same, we like to ham, sometimes we like to ham things up. We're like, what if this happened? Is it the story where we could go this far and be a bit silly? And actually there are some things that have stayed in it that we were like, is that too hammy?

But it's actually like, oh no, this person, this character can have fun in this moment. Like Toby plays a, the kind of more loose kind of ex-lover of Rebecca that's, you know, has more permission to kind of be a bit more fluid in the space and have fun. So like, you know, you can have a bit more fun with that guy. And that brings something new to it as well. You can't have everything be, obviously it's very dark and gothic and all of that, but there is like light as well, like there's light and shade to everything. And there's a Van Hopper character, the brash American at the front that the woman is companion to when we meet her in Monte Carlo, and Pam Rae is just in this fabulous huge hat, just doing this incredible smoking that you just, and painting this picture of this woman that gets a laugh every night.

Yeah, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. And this is such a huge iconic story to take on. What has been the most rewarding or surprising part of working on Rebecca for you personally? I think a huge part has been trusting my own instinct because as assistant director, I mean, you're watching and observing and listening and you might, this role changes no matter, changes with every director and every relationship. So, because as a performer, you're just talking all the time and you're giving, you're problem solving, you're inside it. But on this side of it, I've really learned how to listen more, not shut off my mind, just listen more and sit with my thoughts a bit, but then have them, and then trusting that my instincts have been right.

And yeah, in hindsight, you're going, oh yeah, no, that, I can trust myself a bit more. I do understand what this is because sometimes you get a bit nervous, especially in new roles where you're like, I'm not sure, I'm not sure what I'm doing or how I'm doing it. But you, yeah, that's been big for me is kind of sitting back and listening and trusting. But also, yeah, it's just been a wonderful room to be part of and to hear how all these people create. And I love collaborative processes. So, it's been really a joy to kind of be in that room. And it must be good as well. I feel like, I feel like as performers, we think about taking on other roles and then you're not sure whether or not you're even going to enjoy it or like it.

But it sounds, from the sounds of things, you've gone into it and then gone, oh, this is a new, a new passion, a new something that I'm really interested in as well. Yeah. Yeah. And they're so encouraging, you know, everyone's been really encouraging of, yeah, keep coming back to collaborate, collaborative, but they are like, everyone's very encouraging and everyone's very respectful. And yeah, that kind of encouragement, I think, and nurturing of people coming into new spaces and new roles is really important because we need to keep, we need to keep doing that to keep creating work in this country because we don't kind of have enough of it. So, we need to keep moving people along and encouraging people to make work in different ways because I think, I think that's essential, really.

Like, we, yeah, we don't get a lot of opportunities. I always think, oh, imagine if we, imagine if people rushed to the art world like they do sport world, the AFL world, you know, is there a way we can have both that people, you know, so it's kind of, yeah, I think it's really important to keep encouraging people to create and make and play. And I feel like, yeah, we might start, I just, I just worry with the age of AI and other things that we might start to lose our ability to create in this way. And I really hope that we continue, you know, and especially like me seeing my two-year-old at the moment, she's going through a full, she's, her imaginative play at the moment is in peak, you know, she's just creating and creating stories and playing with her, her dollhouse in a way.

And it's just like, it's, I'm just sit there and just watch her and all and go, oh, you're, you're playing, you're creating. And how do we nurture that and make sure that we all continue to play and create? I just kept, went around in circles, but you know what I mean? I just get so scared. I just get so scared for the future that we're all going to be in a space where we, we're quashed by technology in a way. And I think, yeah, we need to just make sure that we keep, keep our sense of creating. I agree. I kind of think as well, I feel really lucky that I am in theatre in a way with AI because nothing can replace live theatre. Like you can't put an AI, I hope not. I mean, I hope there's no AI romance.

We've got an AI actor, so we just see how she goes. Not a live one, I know, oh my goodness. Not a live one, but that might not be far away if we continue down this path. I know, I hope, I keep going, surely live performance. But you know, yeah, we're seeing a lot of things happening in the music world that are sort of quashing that creativity. So I hope that people, I don't think people realise how, how intense, how industry is. I mean, there was an article recently that said, you know, that the average creator's wage is 45k. And that's real. You know, people, I said that, I said that to someone last night in the audience who was asking me questions about everything, an audience member. And when I said that, they were so shocked.

And I went, no, that's, that's probably right. An average artist's wage is 45k. They think it's a lot more. Yeah. They think, oh, you know, you're doing this, but, and it is about diversifying what you do. Like you can't just do one thing anymore. It feels like you, it's a good, it's really great for performers to get to do different things within the industry, because there is not enough theatre here, like how there is overseas. Like maybe you could, I mean, even then it's still very tricky for people to, for actors to make it and be, you know, having that steady income, but it is so incredible in this new day and age, all the different things that actors do, you know, from social media to trying, you know, podcasting to directing to all these different facets.

You have to diversify. And that's why I was saying we, I grew up in, with the drama school, they were making sure that we were theatre makers. They kind of really made a, made a point of us learning. So we had to learn how to self, to direct and to self-direct and direct each other. We actually had a whole process of how to, so from, from, yeah, from that age of my 20s in drama school, it was really encouraged because they knew that it was tough and that you had to learn how to be kind of pretty well-rounded and resilient in all the things, if you want to keep staying, staying in this industry. And it is unfortunate that we're in a, and I, I mean, sometimes I just think it comes down to maybe we don't value the arts as much as we value, say, sport, which is clear.

That's, that's definitely a thing in this country. And that's, like, you know, we can have both, but we just, I think there's just a, yeah, it's, it's value because sometimes when you go to places like, I've been to France and in the art world there, and it's like, whoa, it's a very different perspective. And yeah, it's a very different, like, I'm, I'm pretty sure the artists there still get a, there's a subsidy and sort of a, you get a sort of wage, like a yearly subsidy is not the right word. It's a stipend. You get something for being an artist. If you, if you're an artist, you get kind of a yearly wage and then you get, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's very different. It's a different, it's a different value, right?

So we have to just keep, and of course there are times where you just go, I'll just go do something else. This is ridiculous. I'll just go be, be a nurse or a firefighter or just going to admin, like, and we, we all have done so many different jobs, but at the end of the day, it's like the joy you get and what you're also skilled at is this. It's just, it's just odd that, you know, you can be 20 years skilled in something yet still get asked to, you know, you still have to prove that every week you have an audition to prove that you can, like, that's wild. It's kind of wild. Like I tried to describe it to a friend and go, you know, you're a lawyer or a banker, you're, you would be going for an interview for that thing that you're skilled at for 20 years.

You're going for an interview for that job, that same job every week, sometimes twice a week, sometimes three times a week, and you might never hear back. So you're living in a, like, it's, it's, it's, you know, if you think about it in those terms, it's wild, right? Why do we keep doing it? I was thinking about that. It takes like 10 years to make an overnight success. Like you might book something that is like the best thing ever for you. And then it's like, people are like, wow, you've just done so well. You're like, what have you been doing for the last, you know, it's not like, even, even Chris Hemsworth was sleeping in the garage and trying and trying and auditioning before. Yeah. You know, like you, you will, everyone's got their, everyone works hard mostly.

All the people I know, definitely. Everyone's, everyone works hard to where they are, but we create these beautiful, big, bold shows like Rebecca. And I think that's what it's about. And if that affects and inspires people, then that's, and makes them think and feel, then that's your job, right? That's done. Exactly. That's a job. Well done. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, everyone on that note, you should go and see Rebecca. It is a fantastic play and will really get you thinking, and it will be very different from other things that you'll see at MTC this year. So definitely go and check it out. Louisa, do you have any info on where they can get tickets? I think you'd probably go to Melbourne Theatre Company website.

It's on till the 5th of November. It's got a pretty short run and I'm pretty sure the tickets are selling like crazy. I'm not sure, but there's also, you should know there's, this is all artists should know and anyone else low income. There's on Tuesday morning, they do release $26 ticket seats, seat savers. So if you follow them on Instagram, even that's the quickest way to look. I mean, everyone, if you're on social media, Instagram, if you follow Melbourne Theatre Company, I'm pretty sure you'll see all the updates. And then Tuesdays, yeah, Tuesday mornings, get onto the seat saver tickets. Cause they get released for that day and then you can get, get cheap ticks. Yes. Go and watch this show.

Yeah. That's what we love. And it's good, especially for it to be accessible to everyone to get to go and see theatre is so important. So yes, thank you so much for coming on and talking about your career, Rebecca, everything. It was an absolute pleasure. I could literally talk to you forever. I know, I know. I was like, I could just keep talking Eliza. Thank you so much. I was like, I could talk forever. This is how I got where I got myself in this trouble. Anyway, talking too much. No, I love it. Well, everyone stay happy, healthy and safe and we'll see you later. Bye. Thank you.