This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Michael Riedel: Michael Riedel here with Singular Sensation, based on my best-selling book that pulls the curtain up on all the juicy gossip of Broadway in the 1990s. Now, the interviews you will hear on this series are my personal recordings I made when I was reporting and writing the book, Singular Sensation. They've never been heard by anyone but myself until now.

[0:39] Michael Riedel: These recordings were made at crowded New York cafes and restaurants, in theater offices, on the phone, and so they have varying levels of quality, but our great editor has digitally restored them to enhance clarity. You will still hear the occasional clinking of glasses— a few were raised during some of these interviews, I can tell you that— fuzziness of a phone call and voices, and you will hear ambient sounds, but it should give you a sense of what it was like when I was recording these interviews at places like Sardi's and Joe Allen. Gives you a little flavor of what Broadway is like. I hope you enjoy Singular Sensation.

[1:13] Michael Riedel: Much of the success for the revival of Guys and Dolls has to be given to the great director Jerry Zaks. His parents were Holocaust survivors, refugees from Hitler, and he grew up here in America. He went to college, and his parents, you know, being refugees, who by the way spoke very little English, he spoke to them in Yiddish, and they wanted him to be a doctor and he studied medicine. But at college, he went to a play and he fell in love with the theater, and he went to his parents and he said, I think mom and dad, I want to be an actor, and that is not something that a nice Jewish boy does, especially for two parents who escaped Hitler, but they supported him. Jerry got cast, I believe, in the original production of Fiddler on the Roof with Zero Mostel, and his parents came to see him, and he brought his parents backstage to see Zero Mostel.

I remember this well. Zero Mostel and his parents, they spoke Yiddish. They were in Yiddish like this. And then his father said, is my son going to be all right? And Zero Mostel said, your son's going to be fine. Don't worry about it. And that was Jerry's gateway into the theater. And Jerry became an actor, but a good actor. He was in Grease, I think, originally, but he also knew that look, I'm a short Jewish guy. I'm always going to be a character actor. He began to get interested in directing, and he was in so many ways the perfect director for Guys and Dolls, a New York kid, a kid who loves New York, a kid who understands the rhythms of Frank Loesser, of Joe Swirling, of Abe Burrows, of George S. Kaufman. He understands the kind of humor of Neil Simon. That's Jerry Zaks' world. And Jerry was the perfect person to be selected to direct Guys and Dolls.

[3:44] Michael Riedel: How does Nathan come into it? How do you know him? What is your reaction? What does he do that makes him Nathan?

[3:50] Jerry Zaks: Tova Peltzsch was in an Off-Broadway production of She Stoops to Conquer with E.G. Marshall. And it was way down, it was downtown on the west side and an old labor union theater. I don't know, before Chelsea was hit, there was WPA in that world. And I went to see it, and this guy came on stage, and I think he was playing, I think the character's name was Tony Rumpkin, although I may be making that up. But this was a force of nature on a stage that I had never seen. And I was just beginning to, I was just beginning to understand that I was not going to be an actor, I was going to be a director. You know, I'd held on to the notion that, you know, I'm directing really to support my acting habit.

You know, it sounded glib. But I had really gotten the bug, and it was digital well. When I saw him do that, he was doing, again, what I wished that I had been capable of doing as an actor. I was okay. You know, I had my moments and I could, you know, but watching what he did in that Off-Broadway production, so when we did Guys and Dolls, I had him come in and audition. Jerry Zaks had never directed Nathan in a show, but he'd seen Nathan in many shows, and he knew how funny Nathan Lane could be. And their collaboration that began on Guys and Dolls was the basis for a great friendship and a great professional relationship that endures to this day.

[5:26] Jerry Zaks: Well, because it was not Nathan Lane, he came in and he gave one of the funnest auditions I can ever remember. The whole room was falling down. But he's not Jewish. Well, what do you mean? Well, I don't know. You know, all the reasons. And I think he came back in, came back and did it again. And it was like, oh, please, let's just forget this. You know, he's Nathan Detroit. There's, you know, there's no one in the world who would do what he will do. So Jerry was looking for an Adelaide, and Faith Prince came in to audition for the part. Now, Faith, you know, the career was just beginning, but she had this incredibly funny moment in a terrible, terrible show called Nick and Nora in 1991. It's a big flop.

But Faith had this moment where she's a victim, a murder victim, and she falls to the ground. And then the characters kick her to the lip of the stage. And if I'm not mistaken, Frank Rich said the only good thing about Nick and Nora is Faith Prince's corpse, which tells you how bad the show is. So Faith had Frank Rich's nice review to go into Jerry Zaks' audition for Guys and Dolls. And she sang Adelaide's Lament. And Jerry knew as soon as she said in her squeaky voice, like Marilyn Monroe, a person can develop a cold. And she got the job on the spot.

[6:58] Jerry Zaks: And Faith had the same, you know, same thing over. She came and she auditioned. Did you know Faith at all before she auditioned?

[7:05] Michael Riedel: Yes, because I think she did a production of Tin Types that I was in originally. I think she did. She either came into her place, or I knew her vaguely, but I didn't really know her. But, you know, the minute she started to read Adelaide, the minute she sang, I'm poised and get on my lap. I'm like, oh, my God, hold on and wait for the sound in the theater that you hope comes along once in a lifetime. Do you remember what Nathan auditioned with?

[7:37] Jerry Zaks: No, no, he read from the script. I don't remember what he sang, but whatever he sang was sweat. And he could carry a tune. He had a good voice. And unlike, who was it, Sam Levine? Sam Levine, who was tone deaf, right? Right, right, right. You know, I think, again, I probably have told you that story where he was trying to convince Loesser to let him sing Sue Me. Sue me, sue me, shoot bullets through me. And Loesser said, no, just do it the way you're doing it. Sue me, sue me, shoot bullets through me. I love you. And Levine was determined to sing it. He called Loesser into it. Tell me, stop me if I don't. He calls him into the house. Levine says, you got it. I can do this. And he made Loesser sit in the orchestra.

And he was up on stage with a piano. And the piano player hit an A. And Levine sang something other than an A. And he did it again. And he sang something other than an A. After several tries, he finally sang the A. Much rejoicing on stage. From the back of the house, you heard Loesser say, do it again. And that's why Sue me, Sue me, shoot bullets through me. I love you. But he didn't hear the pitches. But Nathan could.

[8:54] Jerry Zaks: Oh, yes, yes. He sang the shit out of it. You know, he was sorry. But he was, yeah, he sang it. And in fact, that's also on YouTube, the two of them. And we are great. Yeah, we had a ball, you know. And were they right there from the beginning? Do you have any struggles with them getting them and the chemistry was there from the moment they respect? You know, when you get two very talented people, all you have to do, sorry, it's not all yet. You have to make sure they both understand that sometimes they had to set up and sometimes you have the punch line. And sometimes you have exists somewhere between the two of them. And they were very generous and they had trusted, you know, this is nothing worse than someone who's got to set up trying to turn it into a punch line. Right. It kills. Yeah. And so they were great about sharing.

[9:39] Michael Riedel: So as Jerry Zaks was casting Guys and Dolls, he had in mind from the start, Peter Gallagher. Now, he'd seen Peter in the movie Sex, Lies and Videotape. And what Jerry was looking for was this kind of correct combination of masculinity and sensitivity to play Skye Masterson. And he thought Peter was the person to do that. Now, to play Sarah Brown, of course, is going to be opposite.

[10:06] Jerry Zaks: And Cass' old friend Caroline Magnini. And they'd been together on Broadway in Tin Types in 1980, and they were very, very close. Now, she was a little bit older than Peter Gallagher, but I thought that the May-December relationship could work. Peter Gallagher was a prince, so hard-working, so charismatic, and he was the star, though.

[10:28] Michael Riedel: Did he audition, or did he come as a package, because he ran star?

[10:33] Jerry Zaks: I can't remember. I think he may have auditioned, but I can't swear to it. I can check with whoever was assisting me at the time. But I seem to recall him auditioning. I think he cast anyone, if I'm not doubt. But we may have, because he had begun to make a name for himself.

[10:53] Michael Riedel: Yeah, Sex, Lies, and Videotape.

[10:54] Jerry Zaks: That's right. I interviewed Adrian Bryan Brown, and he said the interesting thing about that dynamic was Nathan and Faith were unknown, and Peter was the star. And after the show opened, Nathan and Faith became the star.

[11:08] Michael Riedel: I don't think he hurt himself in the show at all.

[11:10] Jerry Zaks: Oh, no, no. He was behind it. Yes, yes. Yeah, it's funny, yes. But I don't remember whether he auditioned or not. It would have surprised me now, in retrospect, to find out that he hadn't. But it's possible. You know, I noticed this. Anyone who made a name for themselves in a film, I had to see.

[11:34] Michael Riedel: You had to see.

[11:36] Jerry Zaks: Absolutely. I mean, the number of people I've seen in 30 years, between, or whatever it's been for, you know, who have established themselves in a film, who have come in and been able to fill the space, just the presence was too small, and cautious, and careful. And, you know, it's fine in a naturalistic play. I think it's just fine, as long as you're mic'd, and, you know, you can lean in and listen. But in something like a good old musical comedy...

[12:08] Michael Riedel: And not in a William Ivey Long costume.

[12:11] Jerry Zaks: No, exactly. I mean, but that's the point. That's the point there. Acting had to match the boldness of what they were wearing. It had to be of a piece. Some people can do it, and some people don't have the breath, you know? It's always great to discover someone hasn't that you didn't particularly know did. I remember when I did Front Page, and John Lithgow I had known and worked with in the song of my wedding, and we'd known. But Richard Thomas, I didn't know. And so Richard, he came in and auditioned eagerly, because I'd only known him from TV or something, you know?

[12:49] Michael Riedel: Well, I mean, it's that thing that, you know, Nathan and Faith, and I think Peter had it too, if I remember correctly. Heightened, cartoon, but real people at the same time. Grounded, but some recognize it now.

[13:01] Jerry Zaks: They were human beings, but they're in a very heightened, running land of bright colors. Over the years, as I became a director, I developed this theory, which is a good theory, I think, for any director. It's called seriously silly, meaning that when you're directing a comedy, the people in the comedy, in the play, they do not know that they're funny. They think that everything is at stake. They are struggling. They are fighting for survival, and it's their fight and their struggle, being completely unaware that everything going around them is hilarious, that makes the comedy work, because the audience watching it says, I love these people, but they have no clue what they're doing. They have no idea that they're in a farce. They have no idea that they're in a comedy, because they are trying to hang on for dear life.

[13:52] Jerry Zaks: And I always said, seriously silly is the way you direct musical comedies, the way you direct farces, which I did in a great farce I directed called Lend Me a Tenor. Seriously and Lend Me a Tenor thinks they're getting a laugh. They're trying to put the show on and save themselves, and as Jerry and I have discussed over the years, the great farce of all time is Michael Frayn's Noises Off, and everybody in Noises Off is trying to put a play on, and everything that can possibly go wrong is going wrong, but they're trying to save the play to make it work for the audience, and in the act of trying to be serious and save the play, the real audience watching Noises Off is splitting their sides because they're laughing so hard that these people have no clue that they're in a comedy. That is called seriously silly, and that was my mantra when I directed Guys and Dolls.

[14:47] Jerry Zaks: So everything was a little heightened, but if you stopped believing them, you were gone. So the big trap when you're doing a big musical, for one of them, for the actors, is to try to be funny. It dies when someone's trying to be funny, because it's just obvious, and it has to be excised. If they're good ones, they lose it, but everyone is trying to find that waypoint, that heightened reality. Sometimes, it crosses the line into... I mean, Adelaide doesn't know that a person can develop a cold as a comedy number.

[15:29] Michael Riedel: That's correct. Two words were never spoken, and you could apply that to the entire...

[15:34] Jerry Zaks: No one knew they were in a comedy, and when they appeared to, that's why Rem Walter came out with the different groceries, and he was trying to bring the fat joke that was Stubby K's Province. A wonderful character actor, Walter Bobby, was cast as Nicely, Nicely Johnson. Unusual casting, but I was going for something different.

[15:57] Michael Riedel: He was great. He was gay. He was like a soldier, a fighter saying, let me in, coach, or I can go another round.

[16:04] Jerry Zaks: We'll be right back with more on Guys and Dolls.

[16:07] Michael Riedel: And we're back with Singular Sensation and the story of Guys and Dolls. Was that the tone that you were always on top of the actors about? You're not playing funny, you don't know it's funny?

[16:17] Jerry Zaks: Well, most of them got it.

[16:18] Michael Riedel: They got it.

[16:19] Jerry Zaks: But when they cross the line, and you know, there's also the phenomenon of rehearsal laughs. Something will happen in rehearsal that we will just think is wonderful, and we'll laugh. We'll think it's funny.

[16:33] Michael Riedel: Right.

[16:34] Jerry Zaks: You know, we're not laughing. It's all theoretical, and it's everyone, you know, it could be someone there laughing at something Nathan or Faith does, because they know Nathan and Faith and it's audacious. And oh, my God, that's hysterical. Well, first thing he tells you an awful lot about what's funny and what's not, you know. I once had a producer, Stuart Osborne.

[16:56] Michael Riedel: Yeah, that's right.

[16:57] Jerry Zaks: Yeah. Great guy, you know, and he did. We did Face Value today.

[17:01] Michael Riedel: Oh, yeah.

[17:02] Jerry Zaks: Not go well.

[17:03] Michael Riedel: Yeah, yeah.

[17:04] Jerry Zaks: Right. We were in Boston dying, and he would come back and, you know, he'd be sitting in the house, and he'd come back to us at intermission and say, you know, they're loving it. They're just it's so funny. I said, who's, do you hear anybody laughing? He said, well, I say, I hear you laughing, but I don't hear anybody else laughing. So by definition, it's not funny.

[17:22] Michael Riedel: It's not.

[17:23] Jerry Zaks: We can discuss it. We can pretend it's funny because we think it's funny. And so previews are fantastic, or weeding out the rehearsal laughs and really identifying the genuine moments. I mean, you know, but someone like Nathan, you know, for me, someone like Nathan, it's working out where the laughs should come and how to get five laughs instead of one or two, how to get five good ones, earned ones, ones that keep topping themselves. It's like truly a director's dream, you know, which we did. We did in Guys and Dolls, but we did even more on Funny Thing because we got to know each other shorthand and there was a level of trust that made it a dream.

[18:16] Jerry Zaks: I don't know. You know, if I could be doing it, that's the way, that's the exact way. It's been very satisfying. And the fact that it wasn't Jewish didn't make any difference.

[18:27] Michael Riedel: Nobody noticed.

[18:28] Jerry Zaks: Nobody. Because the audience, the audience is so willing to meet you more than halfway.

[18:35] Michael Riedel: Right.

[18:36] Jerry Zaks: You know.

[18:37] Michael Riedel: Yeah. In fact, he had to perform a circumcision on stage, a ritual Jewish Orthodox. You know, then we might have had issues.

[18:43] Jerry Zaks: I mean, but he didn't. You know, it's made in Detroit. Where is it written that he's Jewish? It's only because Sam Levine hated the part. You know, as I recall in the movie, it was Frank Sinatra. Wasn't it? Not hardly a Jew. You know. And so, you know, that was something stuffed in people's. Don't care. Once he began to play the part rehearsals, it was never even.

[19:09] Michael Riedel: Not even.

[19:10] Jerry Zaks: Yeah. Tell me, because, you know, Michael David and the Dodgers are going to emerge in this narrative. What they were like, what Michael was like then as a young producer, what his skills were.

[19:20] Jerry Zaks: He was smart. He was responsible. He was very articulate. We had good taste. We have really good taste. And he protected. You protected him from all of the people out there. There isn't this. And I promise you, this is as true as getting attention off yourself and you'll be a better actor. There isn't anything that someone who's connected with a show more than being able to point to the stage and say, that was my idea. I promise you, everyone from stage management to crew, you know, and that's great. I think you stay open to the possibility of a good idea from anyone. But when theater is mixed into that, you get people offering suggestions.

[20:09] Michael Riedel: Yeah.

[20:41] Jerry Zaks: He was a real mensch during all of that. He was not the kind of person who would ever come to me and say, we have a problem here. I had their trust, which is a big deal, which is why ultimately I had to do what I had to do. There's nothing really more important than the show.

[21:14] Michael Riedel: But you were saying that Michael was protecting you?

[21:19] Jerry Zaks: Yes. I said, Michael, you've got to help me. And from then on, he insisted to all his investors and contributors or co-producers that they give him all his notes. He would organize and collate them. We would sit down like this. He'd go through a checklist. I'd take them down. I'd read through them and eliminate ones that I knew I'd either dealt with or didn't really need attention. There was always something useful to say. So he made sure that that type of communication was best designed to protect the possibility of a happy ending. It was a good show. And so he was good. I just remember him being steadfast and dependable.

[22:03] Jerry Zaks: I think the fact that he knew that I had to make a cast change for me, I think eventually he would have said, we've got to do something. He implored me to take a look at what was happening between them. I'm pretty sure he did. I don't think I'm making that up.

[22:50] Jerry Zaks: That he was going to be there. And he went up to the box office and he bought a ticket to see the show as if he were just an audience member and to try to figure out why it wasn't landing. So as Jerry settled into his seat as a paying customer to his show, Guys and Dolls, which was not working, what immediately became clear to him was something that had been gnawing at him for a long time. And that was he cast his good friend, Carolyn Mignini as Sarah Brown. And he knew that she wasn't right for the part. And there was no chemistry between Peter Gallagher. And as he sat there in his seat, he knew he had to do something tough and brutal. And that was to fire his close friend. So Jerry made the decision to put on Carolyn Mignini's understudy, Josie de Guzman, when he was about to fire his good friend Carolyn. And from the moment he put Josie de Guzman on, there was chemistry between her and Peter Gallagher. And now the show was off and running.

[23:51] Jerry Zaks: The opening night was broadcast live on television.

[23:53] Michael Riedel: Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. It was.

[23:55] Jerry Zaks: Yeah, Fox, they did a big hour-long special.

[23:59] Michael Riedel: Oh, yeah. By then I was in heaven.

[24:01] Jerry Zaks: Well, you knew who you had.

[24:03] Michael Riedel: Well, you knew who you had.

[24:04] Jerry Zaks: No, by then, you know, the relief. I can't. When I tell you that Chris Jadman and I started crying spontaneously. I'm not prone to that. You know, I'm just saying unless something really.

[24:14] Michael Riedel: That's when you do that.

[24:15] Jerry Zaks: You know, right.

[24:16] Jerry Zaks: But that's when you do at work. The relief that our work was done.

[24:19] Michael Riedel: Right.

[24:20] Jerry Zaks: We really had finished what had been, you know, so like, this is a lot. I mean, honestly, I mean, cutting numbers that he loved and, you know, and him going back to the drawing boards and.

[24:31] Jerry Zaks: Something else that Jerry noticed when he was pretending to be a paying customer was that the opening Runyonland was going too long and he decided as much as he loved it, he had to cut it. And it was that ruthless cutting that really got the show back on track. You know, we're both relentless. And then there was finally came that moment where we didn't have to be relentless anymore and.

[24:56] Michael Riedel: You couldn't go out for a break.

[24:57] Jerry Zaks: You can go out for a break and just go, oh, well, that was that was close.

[25:04] Michael Riedel: So that you remember that opening night when they when they brought you the review, Frank Rich's review was on the front page of the Times.

[25:11] Jerry Zaks: I remember a big deal back there.

[25:12] Michael Riedel: We're sitting at the party. I get emotional.

[25:15] Jerry Zaks: If you ask me, it's all right. No, no, no.

[25:17] Michael Riedel: Because I remember what he said.

[25:19] Jerry Zaks: He said, among other things, he said, has directed with a great eye and a big heart.

[25:26] Michael Riedel: That's right.

[25:26] Jerry Zaks: Directed with a great eye and a big heart.

[25:28] Michael Riedel: And I thought, you know, if I needed someone to write my epitaph, that would be that's an option. Great eye and a big heart.

[25:34] Jerry Zaks: I mean, where was the party? Do you remember?

[25:38] Michael Riedel: I think it was at the ballroom. The Rock.

[25:40] Jerry Zaks: Oh, the Roseland.

[25:41] Michael Riedel: That's right. I think.

[25:42] Jerry Zaks: Right.

[25:42] Michael Riedel: I may be wrong.

[25:43] Jerry Zaks: Right. And someone hands you the review.

[25:44] Michael Riedel: Yeah, someone handed me the paper.

[25:46] Jerry Zaks: Yeah. Oh, I was like.

[25:47] Michael Riedel: And then you just like see the front page.

[25:49] Jerry Zaks: Yeah. It's relief multiplied a hundred times, you know.

[25:53] Michael Riedel: It was a little too early for exhilaration.

[25:55] Jerry Zaks: And, you know, what does this mean? And it's going to run for a long time. And right now it was just tremendous relief because I knew how close we had been to something that really didn't.

[26:08] Michael Riedel: Right.

[26:09] Jerry Zaks: Except for work that fits the styles.

[26:11] Michael Riedel: Right.

[26:12] Jerry Zaks: But didn't really have the momentum to take the audience and lift them up at the beginning.

[26:15] Michael Riedel: And never let them go.

[26:16] Jerry Zaks: Never let them crash.

[26:17] Michael Riedel: Yeah.

[26:18] Jerry Zaks: And have them land beautifully and have them all turn around and go.

[26:22] Michael Riedel: Thank you.

[26:24] Jerry Zaks: But again, I promise you what a standing ovation. If someone just, you know, it happened most recently after me.

[26:29] Michael Riedel: It's bullet purple.

[26:30] Jerry Zaks: Yeah.

[26:30] Michael Riedel: I stood because I couldn't possibly get the seat.

[26:33] Jerry Zaks: Couldn't retain my.

[26:34] Michael Riedel: Yeah.

[26:34] Jerry Zaks: You know, every once in a while it happens, you know.

[26:37] Jerry Zaks: But.

[26:38] Jerry Zaks: I mean, it happens now regularly because I think people say, well, it's a big night out. We paid a lot of money.

[26:42] Michael Riedel: So that's what I am.

[26:44] Jerry Zaks: But you can tell if you're in the theater, you know, when they're standing because now we stand.

[26:48] Michael Riedel: Yeah, that's right.

[26:49] Jerry Zaks: But then, you know, when they're standing because they just got all they want to do.

[26:52] Michael Riedel: Right.

[26:52] Jerry Zaks: Oh, it's such a difference.

[26:54] Jerry Zaks: It's such a big difference, you know.

[26:55] Michael Riedel: Yeah.

[26:56] Jerry Zaks: But you understand how most most people that are around the theater know the difference between, you know, an obligatory standing ovation and a genuine, spontaneous one, you know.

[27:07] Michael Riedel: And then what is the feeling like that?

[27:11] Jerry Zaks: I mean, I had a sense back then and I went back and looked at a lot of the articles written by Guys and Dolls. It somehow captured the imagination of New York. It somehow gave a lift to New York itself in those early 90s. It put a wonderful face on the city. You know, it really did. One that everyone loved and enjoyed, you know.

[27:28] Jerry Zaks: But I must say, you know, and I've talked so much about my process and, you know, that I need to make it clear that without great material.

[27:40] Michael Riedel: Yeah.

[27:40] Jerry Zaks: I have nothing.

[27:41] Michael Riedel: Yeah.

[27:42] Jerry Zaks: But I mean, you know, I can go off and talk to me about how I thought of this or that or change this. And all the while, if you don't have the frankness, lesser, a Burroughs, whoever else called swirling, I don't know what.

[27:54] Michael Riedel: Yeah.

[27:55] Jerry Zaks: But that incredible material, same with Anything Goes. I mean, we've got Cole Porter's songs. Oh, my God. You better not screw it up. My feeling of it was and looking back in these articles that people knew Guys and Dolls, but it'd been a long time and it was just a rediscovery of how much fun an old show was tailored for a new time. But truly, truly, I think people, when they saw it, felt like they were seeing a new show.

[28:23] Michael Riedel: Yeah.

[28:24] Jerry Zaks: Honestly, at least I believe I wanted to take that, you know.

[28:28] Michael Riedel: So did you have a sense when you first looked at the show, when you were playing around with it, that there was something old fashioned about it that you didn't want to?

[28:33] Jerry Zaks: No, no, no, not at all.

[28:37] Jerry Zaks: I lost it just because the storytelling is so good. It's like, oh, my God. Oh, and then, you know, you get hysterical in a scene and then your heart would break when he sings, I'll know about that. You know, you thought, oh, my God, just when that goes, that something exciting happens.

[28:52] Michael Riedel: Right.

[28:52] Jerry Zaks: Too often. But I mean, when you first thought about it before I told you, don't mess around.

[28:57] Jerry Zaks: No, I just do. I love listening to the music and the words and the storytelling. I love that from the page, from the story, what I can listen to.

[29:05] Michael Riedel: Right.

[29:06] Jerry Zaks: Suddenly, I'll know when my love comes along. I'll know then and there. I'll know at the sight of her face how I care, how I care, how I care. And I'll stop and I'll stare and I'll know long before we can speak. I'll know.

[29:34] Michael Riedel: Next on Singular Sensation, we'll find out how Guys and Dolls went from being what everybody thought was going to be a flop to be a major hit. Coming up, we'll hear from Nathan Lane.

[29:48] Michael Riedel: Thank you for listening to Singular Sensation. I'm your host, Michael Riedel. To find out more about Singular Sensation, the book and the podcast, visit bpn.fm/singularsensation. This episode was edited by Sarah Goodman and produced by Dori Berenstein, Kimberly Garris, Alan Seals, and Sarah Goodman for the Broadway Podcast Network. Special thanks to Liz Armstrong and the entire BPN team.