This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Chris Adams: Oh, hello. Oh, hi there. Here we are again. The Rage. Out for Blood 2. Back in the habit.

[0:29] Holly Morgan: Oh, you know what? I do sort of miss those early days recording all the interviews in your flat with all the traffic and the drunk people outside.

[0:36] Chris Adams: And inside, yeah. Well, those are the days we've actually moved.

[0:40] Holly Morgan: You have moved. How's that working out?

[0:42] Chris Adams: Delightful, yeah. I don't think that's why we're here, though, is it?

[0:45] Holly Morgan: No, I want to hear more about your house.

[0:46] Chris Adams: Okay, sure.

[0:48] Holly Morgan: No, that's not. You're right. That's not why we're here. We are back for one night only.

[0:52] Chris Adams: One night only!

[0:54] Holly Morgan: Thank you. One night only for a special bonus catch-up episode.

[0:58] Chris Adams: Can you believe that it's been over two years since we released our first episode of Out for Blood?

[1:03] Holly Morgan: It's madness. It is chaos. I can't believe it.

[1:06] Chris Adams: It is true. I've checked. And what a roller coaster it's been.

[1:09] Holly Morgan: When we first started planning this, we thought that we'd maybe get like five listeners.

[1:13] Chris Adams: Yeah, me, you, you again, my mum, Tom, maybe.

[1:19] Holly Morgan: I wasn't planning to listen to it, to be honest.

[1:21] Chris Adams: Thanks, Tom. It turned out that something weird happened.

[1:24] Holly Morgan: The show just kind of took off. So many people from all around the world downloaded our little podcast and seemed to sort of kickstart a new conversation about Carrie.

[1:32] Chris Adams: They're still downloading it now.

[1:34] Holly Morgan: So thank you to everyone who has supported the show and for continuing to spread the word.

[1:38] Chris Adams: We love you all. But why are we back today?

[1:41] Holly Morgan: Well, if you've downloaded this today on Monday the 13th of February, know that today it's exactly 35 years since the first ever preview of Carrie the Musical up in sunny Stratford-upon-Avon.

[1:53] Chris Adams: By the Westfield.

[1:54] Holly Morgan: No, as previously discussed, that's the other Stratford.

[1:56] Chris Adams: Although that's not quite true, right?

[1:58] Holly Morgan: You are right. February the 13th, 1988, was the scheduled first performance of Carrie.

[2:04] Chris Adams: But that show was actually cancelled because, according to articles in the local press, the show wasn't quite ready, would you believe?

[2:12] Holly Morgan: You do surprise me.

[2:14] Chris Adams: That's right. According to this article, which I have personally saved from the Birmingham Evening Mail, it's a letter from a very angry man called Mr. P Bisson from Redditch.

[2:22] Holly Morgan: There was a total, quote, lack of consideration shown by the RSC, who cancelled the performance with very little notice.

[2:28] Chris Adams: This is the kind of detail we like on Out For Blood. Can we get Mr. P Bisson on the show?

[2:33] Holly Morgan: If anyone can track Mr. P Bisson, or is indeed himself, please get in touch.

[2:39] Chris Adams: Email us, Mr. Bisson.

[2:40] Holly Morgan: So, we may be a day or two off, but we felt it was important to mark the occasion.

[2:44] Chris Adams: And anyway, the show did get its official opening press night on Thursday the 18th of February, so we're not that far off.

[2:50] Holly Morgan: And we all know the repercussions of that chaotic night.

[2:53] Chris Adams: See episode three for further details.

[2:56] Holly Morgan: But surely it can't be 35 years. I was yet to be born for at least another 20.

[3:01] Chris Adams: Sure. I mean, it's true. Carrie the Musical is now as old as someone with a mortgage and children.

[3:06] Holly Morgan: Speaking of children, we have a new member of the gang.

[3:10] Chris Adams: I did wonder who that was in the corner.

[3:12] Holly Morgan: Yes.

[3:13] Nairin Morgan: Hello.

[3:14] Holly Morgan: Milk enthusiast. Broadway fan. My progeny.

[3:20] Nairin Morgan: Hello.

[3:24] Chris Adams: Hi baby. Welcome to the podcast.

[3:26] Holly Morgan: Yes.

[3:27] Chris Adams: It's one hell of a name, isn't it?

[3:29] Holly Morgan: Get ready for people saying your name wrong, which is thematically relevant to the podcast.

[3:35] Chris Adams: What else is celebrating a birthday today?

[3:37] Holly Morgan: It's only our editor, Tom.

[3:39] Chris Adams: I was going to say Jerry Springer and Stockard Channing, according to Birthdaypedia, but short.

[3:43] Holly Morgan: Birthdaypedia.

[3:45] Chris Adams: Happy birthday, Tom.

[3:47] Tom Moores: Thank you.

[3:48] Chris Adams: Thank you for coming in on your birthday to edit this nonsense, because we're obviously going out live.

[3:52] Tom Moores: Yes.

[3:55] Holly Morgan: Any other things that are 35 this month?

[3:57] Tom Moores: Well, I've actually sadly lost my login to Birthdaypedia.

[4:00] Chris Adams: But a quick Google, and it's less popular sister site Wikipedia, tells me the Winter Olympics opened in Calgary, Canada, 35 years ago today as well.

[4:09] Holly Morgan: Sports facts.

[4:10] Chris Adams: Yeah, we love sports here on the pod.

[4:12] Holly Morgan: Just diversifying that audience.

[4:14] Chris Adams: Hashtag sports.

[4:16] Tom Moores: Anything else?

[4:17] Chris Adams: Bruce Springsteen's Tunnel of Love tour started in Worcester, Massachusetts.

[4:21] Holly Morgan: Okay, sure.

[4:22] Chris Adams: Thanks, Tom.

[4:24] Holly Morgan: Yeah.

[4:27] Chris Adams: It feels weird to be shading you for having a niche interest when we're doing this podcast.

[4:32] Holly Morgan: It's like people are interested in other stuff.

[4:34] Chris Adams: I know, imagine.

[4:35] Holly Morgan: Anyway.

[4:36] Chris Adams: But basically what we're saying is that Carrie the Musical was the key event of 1988.

[4:40] Holly Morgan: That's our takeaway, isn't it?

[4:41] Chris Adams: I think that's what we've been saying all along.

[4:42] Holly Morgan: Probably the entire 80s, to be honest.

[4:44] Chris Adams: Absolutely.

[4:45] Holly Morgan: My birth, your birth.

[4:47] Chris Adams: Not important.

[4:48] Holly Morgan: No.

[4:49] Chris Adams: But isn't it amazing, though, that a show that has been declared a flop by many is still being talked about all these years later?

[4:54] Holly Morgan: That's sort of what we found fascinating all along, isn't it?

[4:56] Chris Adams: What was it about this show in particular that caught the imagination of people to keep it in the...

[5:01] Holly Morgan: Zeitgeist.

[5:02] Chris Adams: The Zeitgeist.

[5:03] Holly Morgan: I've always wanted to say that word.

[5:05] Chris Adams: There we go. Well, I hope we played a little part in introducing this unique musical and the story of its creation to a new generation of theatre fans.

[5:12] Holly Morgan: And, of course, we were so lucky to meet some Carrie heroes along the way.

[5:15] Chris Adams: What have they been up to?

[5:17] Holly Morgan: Yeah, a lot has been going on. Firstly, isn't it nice to see theatres back up and running almost pretty much as normal again?

[5:24] Chris Adams: Yeah, because when we were recording our original episodes, we were in and out of lockdowns and theatres all over the place kept having to close.

[5:30] Holly Morgan: It was a bit bittersweet. We were all sort of missing theatre. But, of course, it did mean that all of those amazing people involved in the show over the years were at home and sort of really excited just to get a chance to talk about Carrie and theatre and the community that they loved.

[5:42] Chris Adams: Yeah, very strange time.

[5:44] Holly Morgan: Well, the Carrie alumni have been popping up all over the place.

[5:46] Chris Adams: They have.

[5:47] Holly Morgan: That's right, lovely. Lindsay Haitley returned to a role that she hadn't played for 30 years.

[5:52] Chris Adams: Carrie White.

[5:53] Holly Morgan: Is it happening?

[5:54] Chris Adams: Not quite.

[5:55] Holly Morgan: I mean, that would be incredible.

[5:56] Chris Adams: She returned as the narrator in Joseph, which she first played way back in 1991, just three years after Carrie closed.

[6:03] Holly Morgan: And also her daughter, lovely Meg Haitley, is now in Mamma Mia, a show which her mum has been in.

[6:10] Chris Adams: Amazing. Let's start a petition to get them both in it at the same time.

[6:13] Holly Morgan: With a Cher cameo.

[6:14] Chris Adams: It could happen. I saw Sally Ann Triplett, original Sue, in a rather excellent production of Cabaret in Paris, because I'm so posh.

[6:23] Holly Morgan: You're so posh.

[6:24] Chris Adams: And she was in Billy Elliot, which I heard loads of great things about.

[6:28] Holly Morgan: Now, I believe you may have been up to a couple of things these last two years as well, because we've obviously not seen each other in that interim period.

[6:36] Chris Adams: We only ever communicate in this small recording studio.

[6:38] Holly Morgan: That's what I've requested, yeah.

[6:40] Chris Adams: While you were busy having a human baby and other such exciting grown-up things, I just basically kept continuing to talk to people about Carrie the Musical, to people on the street and whoever would listen, really.

[6:50] Holly Morgan: Yeah, you had a baby of your own.

[6:52] Chris Adams: I suppose you could call it that.

[6:54] Holly Morgan: Very similar process.

[6:56] Chris Adams: Well, our lovely social media followers kind of know this already, but very excitingly, I've written an actual book about Carrie the Musical.

[7:02] Holly Morgan: An actual full book. This is the dream.

[7:04] Chris Adams: It is a bit.

[7:05] Holly Morgan: How did it happen?

[7:07] Chris Adams: Well, you'll remember, during the podcast, I mean, not to give away our behind-the-scenes secrets, but we sort of didn't record everything before we released it, right?

[7:15] Holly Morgan: So, as the episodes were being released, loads of people connected to the show just kept appearing and kept putting us in touch with more and more people.

[7:23] Chris Adams: Yeah, we basically unlocked the Carrie floodgates.

[7:26] Holly Morgan: Yeah, and because we'd sort of told the story of the show chronologically, it was hard for us to add people into the podcast at the wrong moment.

[7:32] Chris Adams: We tried.

[7:33] Holly Morgan: We did try.

[7:35] Chris Adams: And anyway, there were all these extra people and new stories to tell. And the end of lockdown meant that, you know, archives and libraries were all back open.

[7:44] Holly Morgan: So, I was really lucky. I got to look at old technical drawings and listen to recorded interviews and all sorts of geeky Carrie stuff.

[7:51] Chris Adams: Yeah, I remember you being very excited about a trip to Stratford, not the Westfield one.

[7:55] Holly Morgan: I did. I did. I spent far too long sort of poring over old newspapers surrounded by lots of very academic-looking people researching very important Shakespearean stuff. There I was, reading about Carrie.

[8:07] Chris Adams: And anyway, combined with, you know, literally hundreds of hours of interviews that we three had recorded back in the day, it sort of felt like there was a bigger story to tell about the creation of the show, and not to be fancy, about the cultural context of why it became so well-known despite its short life.

[8:23] Holly Morgan: Absolutely. Any juicy secrets?

[8:25] Chris Adams: Well, I can't possibly say. You'll have to read it.

[8:27] Holly Morgan: Oh, yes. What a tease.

[8:29] Chris Adams: So, what you're saying is, you found out where the unitards are stored?

[8:33] Holly Morgan: Don't tell them.

[8:34] Chris Adams: But there is a whole chapter just about the unitards' location.

[8:37] Holly Morgan: That's about more than unitards.

[8:40] Chris Adams: Is that for the cover?

[8:43] Holly Morgan: This book is about more than unitards.

[8:46] Chris Adams: And when do I get my complimentary coffee?

[8:49] Holly Morgan: Well, you can pre-order it from wherever you get your books from.

[8:52] Chris Adams: Sounds quite profesh, doesn't it?

[8:54] Holly Morgan: It does, yeah. I mean, local bookstores are obviously excellent. They should be able to get hold of it for you.

[8:58] Chris Adams: But it comes out in the summer. You can get it from the publisher, Bloomsbury's website, and pretty much anywhere you get your books from.

[9:04] Holly Morgan: Shall I put a link in the show notes?

[9:06] Chris Adams: So, are you saying I'm not going to get a free copy?

[9:09] Holly Morgan: Well, I only get a few, and I have to give one to my mum.

[9:14] Chris Adams: I promised a few other people.

[9:15] Holly Morgan: Niall probably won't want one.

[9:17] Chris Adams: Yeah.

[9:18] Holly Morgan: So, I know, of course, you can have one.

[9:20] Chris Adams: Half price.

[9:21] Holly Morgan: Will you sign it?

[9:22] Chris Adams: What do you want me to write?

[9:24] Holly Morgan: Don't waste the moon?

[9:25] Chris Adams: Perfect.

[9:27] Holly Morgan: But in all seriousness, can we come back and talk about it when it's out?

[9:30] Chris Adams: I would love to come back and talk about it when it's out.

[9:33] Holly Morgan: Anyway, I've got a ton of people that I need to thank for their help on the book. So, why don't we do a little book club special in the summer?

[9:40] Chris Adams: Yes, let's do it.

[9:41] Holly Morgan: Carrie, book club. I will bring the wine.

[9:43] Chris Adams: Again.

[9:44] Holly Morgan: No, I'm so glad you can actually drink wine again, because that was a dull nine months.

[9:48] Chris Adams: It was really dull, wasn't it?

[9:49] Holly Morgan: Oh, my God. I'd also just like to say how immensely proud of you I am for writing this book.

[9:54] Chris Adams: Thank you. Well, I mean, it's all because of you guys. I would not have been able to do it without the help of you two and all of your many hours spent chatting about Carrie the musical.

[10:03] Holly Morgan: Oh, gosh, gosh, gosh. I'll have to swab the studio.

[10:06] Chris Adams: But that's not all of your Carrie projects.

[10:09] Holly Morgan: No, it's been quite the year of Carrie for me, morning, noon, and now.

[10:13] Chris Adams: The year of Carrie.

[10:17] Holly Morgan: It has been the year of Carrie. There were points where Carrie was in my head every waking hour of the day. It was a bit much. I'm not going to lie.

[10:22] Chris Adams: Did you think you had magical powers?

[10:25] Holly Morgan: I did start to try and move things with the power of my mind only.

[10:29] Chris Adams: And sometimes I thought it was working.

[10:31] Holly Morgan: Oh, my God. It wasn't.

[10:34] Chris Adams: Look, I saw your production of Carrie.

[10:35] Holly Morgan: You did.

[10:36] Chris Adams: Shortly after giving birth, which I can only thank you for.

[10:40] Holly Morgan: It was a hallucinogenic experience.

[10:41] Chris Adams: No, I absolutely loved it.

[10:43] Holly Morgan: Thank you. I thought that it was so wonderful. And it wasn't just because I was out the house. I promise.

[10:48] Chris Adams: And I'd had a wine.

[10:49] Holly Morgan: Just getting some fresh air. No, it was absolutely tremendous. And I did miss the cardboard cars.

[10:54] Chris Adams: Oh.

[10:55] Holly Morgan: And obviously you didn't cast me as Carrie. So I had to terminate our friendship briefly.

[11:00] Chris Adams: I'm sorry about that. It was obviously a difficult choice.

[11:02] Holly Morgan: But I think your childcare arrangements would have been too tricky.

[11:05] Chris Adams: That's the only reason I didn't cast you as Carrie in the show.

[11:08] Holly Morgan: Yeah. No, I appreciate that. But if you'd let me know, we could have workshopped something.

[11:13] Chris Adams: We could have disguised Nigh as a pig.

[11:16] Holly Morgan: You're saying Nigh would have had to have been in the show as well as you.

[11:19] Chris Adams: Yes.

[11:20] Holly Morgan: Playing 17 years old. Having just given birth.

[11:24] Chris Adams: He would play my mum.

[11:26] Holly Morgan: I mean, that would have definitely added a new dimension to the story.

[11:30] Chris Adams: Definitely an interesting interpretation.

[11:32] Holly Morgan: Is that a baby? Is that a baby dressed as a pig?

[11:36] Chris Adams: Someone would have done a podcast about it.

[11:38] Holly Morgan: Exactly. No, I mean, it was an amazing opportunity. We've talked about both versions of Carrie so much on this show. And this, of course, the version you can license is the 2012 revival production.

[11:49] Chris Adams: It was so much fun.

[11:50] Sadie Kempner: How do you do that blood drop several times a week on your very expensive microphones and costumes? You know, it's a challenge. And how do you rehearse a show which has those two very distinct worlds? So even though it's very different to the show that, you know, Terry Hans and Debbie Allen and the writers worked on back in the 80s, which we all love so much, you know, I could well understand all of those challenges. And I started to understand the decisions that were made to change certain things in the revival. And of course, you know, we had different problems to tackle. We were a non-professional production in the sense that we all had day jobs to go to. And, you know, even then COVID was still floating about.

We definitely didn't have a Broadway budget. So, you know, how do you put together this very challenging show with all of those different things layered on top of it? But, you know, hundreds of people are now doing this show every year. And this is what we've found interesting all along, isn't it? You know, the show that was deemed a flop is now being performed all over the world and people are loving doing it. And so I feel finally very special to be part of that big club of people who've worked on Carrie. I think, you know, generally appreciated a lot more the intricacy of the music and how the show is structured and how the characters interact. And definitely that all gave me a new perspective, a new refreshed love of Carrie the musical, I think.

[13:40] Chris Adams: Are we allowed to talk about your idea with how you did the telekinesis?

[13:44] Sadie Kempner: Yeah.

[13:45] Chris Adams: Yeah. Tell the listeners about that because I thought it was really interesting.

[13:48] Sadie Kempner: This came from a really interesting idea that Paul, our movement director, had. And, you know, we'd been talking about how to do the telekinesis in quite a small theatre space where, you know, strings would have been visible if we suddenly started floating things around Carrie. And we wanted to kind of come up with a sort of interesting creative solution for it. So we had a fantastic member of the cast called Polly, who is a really talented contemporary dancer. And she came to audition. And we were only just talking about this idea at the time that we'd kind of create a new character. And we slightly pompously gave the new character a name, The Power.

[14:26] Chris Adams: I love it.

[14:27] Sadie Kempner: The Power. And the idea was that Polly, who was playing The Power, would sort of be a sort of dark shadowy version of Carrie. And whenever the telekinesis was sort of brewing in Carrie's mind, Polly would appear and she would kind of move things around for Carrie. And she would kind of reach out and slam the windows and throw the props around. And it was really creepy. And it kind of gave the audience a bit of a shock every time she appeared. And I think, you know, yeah, it was a really interesting solution. And directors all around the world have come up with different ways of doing it. And there's no wrong or right answer. But it was a really interesting kind of new dimension to explore, I guess.

[15:03] Chris Adams: So interesting and so visually affecting as well. Because, I mean, the styling, you sort of styled her a bit like the girl from The Ring.

[15:09] Sadie Kempner: Yeah, it was a bit like The Ring, yeah.

[15:10] Chris Adams: Which was really great. So it felt like, oh, we're tapping into another aspect of the horror, the horror element of this story. It was the heritage of the piece. And we sort of reflected, you know, the costume that Sadie, who was playing Carrie, her costumes were sort of mirrored in Polly's costumes in a sort of monochrome way, as if she'd been sort of, she looked like she'd been dragged to a forest or something, but she was sort of streaky and bloody and black and white. And it was quite cool. And I think it reintroduced a sense of that kind of horror, as you say, into the story, which is now quite a kind of psychological show, rather than a flat out bloody horror story. But yeah, it was fun to play with. Definitely.

[15:44] Sadie Kempner: Definitely. And I think it kind of, sorry, I'm just really going to go off. But like, if I was a real wanker, I might say that perhaps she represented the ego or the id or something. The fact that I don't know which one of those is which tells you how much of a wanker I am. Let's pretend that that's what we were doing. I know what I'm talking about. Not just doing a spooky Gary. Spooky bitch.

[16:10] Chris Adams: No, it was very fun. We had that. We had lots of other fun stuff to do on a budget. But it was, yeah, it was great fun. And we had the most amazing company. And they were, they threw themselves into it. They were all so much fun to work with. It was superb. And we are very excited to have a couple of the lovely stars of Chris's Carrie here in the studio today. This is so exciting. Thank you for joining us.

[16:40] Ellie McWilliam: You're welcome. Well, I think you should introduce yourselves first of all, so we know who we're speaking to.

[16:43] Sadie Kempner: Hello, I'm Sadie. I play Carrie in Chris's production of Carrie.

[16:48] Ellie McWilliam: And I am Ellie and I played Sue in that production.

[16:53] Sadie Kempner: It's so nice to see you guys. In person. How are you? How are you doing?

[16:59] Ellie McWilliam: Yeah, really well. New year.

[17:04] Sadie Kempner: Yeah. New year. New you.

[17:06] Ellie McWilliam: We try. We finally scrubbed the fake blood off your skin yet.

[17:08] Sadie Kempner: It took about two months for my feet. But yes, still on my shoes.

[17:13] Ellie McWilliam: I'm wearing the shoe.

[17:17] Sadie Kempner: Are you? Are you wearing Sue's shoes?

[17:20] Ellie McWilliam: I am wearing Sue's shoes. Wow. That's a nice souvenir to have.

[17:22] Sadie Kempner: Souvenir? A souvenir.

[17:27] Ellie McWilliam: Thank you Sue, you did that. Incredible funny. I love it.

[17:30] Sadie Kempner: Well, thank you for joining us. We're going to grill you on what it's like to be in Carrie the Musical.

[17:38] Ellie McWilliam: Yeah. So, Sadie, you had some pretty big shoes to fill. Not blood soaked ones like Ellie, but you had some pretty big shoes to fill playing the role of Carrie.

[17:42] Sadie Kempner: No kidding. Yeah. What was it like to play the role? I wouldn't know because Chris wouldn't let me do it. It's rude of him, I thought.

[17:46] Ellie McWilliam: Yeah, I did too. It's just, it's such a huge part. Both kind of literally lots to learn, lots to do, but also it's an enormous thing. I've never been so vocally challenged in anything I've ever done. And also it's very, very emotional and very, there's so much going on kind of in her internal life. And it's also, it's funny, I'd listened, I'd listened to the podcast before we started rehearsing, just a little plug. And so I'd listened to Lindsay talking about what it was like for her. And obviously, very much not the same scale. But I did really relate to that feeling of it kind of feels like everyone else is doing Mean Girls and you're over in the corner doing a kind of Shakespearean drama and kind of tragedy.

And so it's really funny because there's that vibe in rehearsal where everyone's having this fun, upbeat, silly time, and you're just quietly having a mental breakdown. So yeah, it was really demanding, but it was such a fantastic experience. I'm so grateful to Chris for letting me do it. It was really, really great.

[19:11] Chris Adams: I mean, you totally threw yourself into it. I can't imagine how you managed not only to do the show in the end, but to just rehearse it. Like you say, it's just such an intense role to do. It just kind of takes over your entire life for a few weeks.

[19:15] Sadie Kempner: Yeah, absolutely. And like someone who like was bullied a little bit at school as well, like some of it was like revisiting stuff that I haven't thought about in a really long time and kind of getting back into that headspace and being like, oh yeah, that was really hard and really painful.

[19:24] Chris Adams: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you were working with the fabulous Nina, who I wish we could have here today, but Nina played Margaret and the pair of you with just this kind of dynamic force of nature throwing each other around the stage. So it was quite a physical role as well, not just a kind of mental thing to get around, but like very physical.

[19:37] Sadie Kempner: And Nina was great. And we kind of very quickly realised we were completely on the same page and how we kind of understood what we were doing kind of together as a duo in the piece and had a really kind of open lines of communication about what was okay, what wasn't okay, like where were kind of things coming from for each of us. It was really, I've never played a part that demanded that from me. And she was the perfect partner to do it with. It was great.

[20:06] Chris Adams: Yeah, definitely. And Ellie, what about Sue? Sue plays this kind of big role in this version of the show now.

[20:14] Ellie McWilliam: She does. Yeah. And I absolutely love Sue. It's interesting because when everyone wants to audition for Carrie, people either be like, I want to be Carrie or I want to be Chris. No one ever goes for Sue. I couldn't understand that because I only ever wanted to be Sue. I've known the show for like five years and ever since I listened to it, I only ever wanted to be Sue. And I adore her. I think she has such a beautiful arc and there's so much sincerity in her as a character. So getting to play her was a dream. So thank you so much as well.

[20:46] Chris Adams: No, I mean, again, you're just fantastic. And I think Sue kind of creates this thread through the story because she tells the story now really. And she's always there on stage and kind of almost like an audience member, you know, she kind of watches and comments on what's going on. So, again, it's, you know, you can't really escape from it. You're sort of in every bit of it.

[21:05] Ellie McWilliam: Yes. And I got well, I got a little shout out from Christy Altomare, who played Sue in the 2012 version. And in the shout out, she was just like, Sue's such a hard role because you go back and forth. You're happy, then you're sad. It's tragic. And then it's great. And I was like, you know what? That's so true. And I think Sue gets a rap of being like the wet one, but she's not. She is. There's so much emotion in her. And that's why I loved it. But it was really challenging as well. But great role. Yeah. Love her.

[21:32] Chris Adams: Oh, amazing. So Ellie, you knew the show. Did you know the revival? How much do you know about its sort of history beyond?

[21:40] Ellie McWilliam: Honestly, actually, just the revival. I didn't know much about history beyond at all. I think someone literally posted on Facebook, oh, I got into Carrie in some other production. And I was like, what's Carrie? Like, I know the book, but what's the musical? So I listened to the revival. And that's the one that I've known and loved. But then when I listened to your podcast, I learned so much about the history. Through you, I've been educated. Thank you.

[22:09] Chris Adams: We were saying earlier, you know, people do this show now and they don't have as much knowledge of that original production, which, you know, is, you know, it means that that whole kind of flop thing that's loaded on to Carrie isn't part of it.

[22:21] Ellie McWilliam: Yeah, I never knew that. So to hear it, I was like, how? How is this a flop? It's fantastic. And then when I heard you guys talk about it, I was like, oh, I now see. Once you see, you can't see.

[22:37] Chris Adams: Now, I don't know about you guys, but I realized as I got into this, that this show is very hard to do. This is no walk in the park. You know, all this is a highly technical show, as well as all the kind of psychological and physical stuff. So, Sadie, what advice would you give to anyone who's going into the show to play Carrie? And do you think you could have... Another thing that we've sort of talked about is how hard it is to do that role in particular for a long time, because, you know, there haven't really been many productions of Carrie that have lasted for, you know, years and years, like a long running Broadway type show. Do you think you could have sustained doing that every day?

[23:13] Sadie Kempner: I have no idea. I'm inclined to say no, probably. It was so... By the end of the week, it's just so draining and kind of not dissimilar to Sue, and like, they mirror each other in a lot of quite interesting ways. But I think she has just constantly being set up for the catastrophe. And the way, especially once we started doing runs, and once we started doing it in the space,

[23:41] Ellie McWilliam: I would find myself kind of forgetting what was going to happen because I'd be trying to like keep it really in the moment and really like responding to what was happening as it was happening and then you get to prom and I'd come to this front and look at Adam who played Tommy, who was wonderful, look at Adam and just suddenly go they're about to cover me in blood. I can't remember now. And yeah and it is really, it's quite excruciating at times and yeah but it but really thrilling as well and I don't think, I think there aren't that many parts where you kind of explore the depths that we go to and the heights that she gets to as well because in a way she also has her perfect night before it all goes wrong.

Yeah and yeah it was yeah very demanding very and physical as well as we talked about like constantly being thrown to the floor, constantly being kind of shunned out of like every kind of possible opportunity and relationship and all that kind of stuff. It's just yeah it was intense man, it was intense.

[24:42] Sadie Kempner: Well you kind of mentioned it there but maybe you can talk a bit about what it was that blood moment was like and what that kind of you know because we, this was not you know a professional production in the sense of you know we didn't have unlimited resources, we couldn't be on the stage for very long before the show started so we couldn't really rehearse that very much could we? It was all kind of done on a bit of a wing and a prayer. What was it like kind of going into that whole part of the show?

[25:05] Ellie McWilliam: Well it was really interesting, I'm going to talk a little bit about beforehand and then lead into it because it was an interesting kind of development. You decided very early on that it was going to be real liquid of some variety, not kind of confetti or lights and that was great and that sat very well with me. I was like yeah that feels real and I can't remember how long it was before we started doing it in rehearsal but about halfway through the rehearsal process I went to the stage manager's house and she covered me in blood in her garden basically and we kind of spent an hour like cooking it up on the stove and it was it was just you know stage blood, synthetic blood but we were like what if we cooked corn flour into it would that make it gungier and then a flatmate stood on the roof and literally like poured blood off the roof onto me in her garden and the whole garden was covered in blood.

It's a destructive show, it just damages property and that was like okay so it's one thing having like hours to mentally prepare for it and doing it in someone's garden and then having to do it every night. How many shows did we do? I think six in the end. It was a lot and once we got into the space it was really interesting because there were you know specific ways I had to run off and people were opening curtains for me so I didn't touch anyone and I didn't touch anything and it was cold as well like that was obviously because limited time and resources that there was no way of kind of making it comfortable body temperature so it was just like harrowing you know two litres of blood in a water bottle that had been put in a bucket and poured on my head.

[26:39] Sadie Kempner: I remember watching you do it the first time in the theatre in one of the rehearsals running up to the show and I really I think after it happened I just felt this weight lift off my shoulders because I think all of us had been thinking is this going to work is this going because you know if that had ruined your costume you know we had a few alternate costumes but if it ruined the costume if it ruined your mic equipment you know there were so many things that could have gone horribly wrong and I think I remember watching it and it looking really good and just being like oh thank goodness it works.

[27:06] Ellie McWilliam: There was a great thing actually on the night that Lindsay Haley came to see it, sorry spoilers, she came up to me afterwards she was like you did it with real blood how are you doing that and I very truthfully said to her that our lovely sound engineer covered my microphone in condoms.

[27:22] Sadie Kempner: Yeah.

[27:23] Ellie McWilliam: And we got lucky that the dress was very washable. That was like magic dress how did that come out like seven times.

[27:31] Sadie Kempner: Yeah I think it's testament you know we had such a lovely crew and production team who just worked on all sorts of solutions to all sorts of things to make it to make that work and this might cover we might have covered that but what were your favorite moments from the show or the process as a whole Ellie?

[27:47] Ellie McWilliam: Oh my gosh that is a good question. I had the best time overall just the absolute best best best time. I think in any show my favorite moments are a lot of the ensemble stuff but Sue doesn't actually do a lot of the ensemble stuff with everyone else and I missed that but it meant that like in as an opening number which is epic was just so much fun and I loved that every single night and in a way I wish it wasn't the opening number because it was just over so quickly but another thing that I loved so much was working with Tommy, Adam. He was just such a lovely partner and we get on so well and even now like we're such good friends and it would just make the experience so nice and yeah I think those two things are probably the standouts but the whole experience from start to finish was a dream come true.

[28:38] Sadie Kempner: We love Adam.

[28:39] Ellie McWilliam: We do. Our first northern Tommy Ross. And Sadie what about you? What are your kind of standout moments I suppose?

[28:48] Sadie Kempner: Oh I mean I love I love kind of like Ellie the bits where everyone comes together and I think a real highlight for me was the Sitzprobe was the band call yeah because it was we'd spent by that point a couple of weeks doing the real nitty gritty stuff kind of really getting into the detail of it and then it's so wonderful that feeling of you know you finally have like a full band in the room everyone's mic'd up and you can just hear everyone absolutely slaying it and it was amazing and like the opening those opening notes of In which I again I was always really jealous because I didn't get to do any of that and I thought In was the coolest number and then the beginning of Eve was weak as well and it's it's just oh it's just iconic and like Nina just always nailed it and it was so cool.

[29:39] Ellie McWilliam: Watching you Nina sing opposite each other like I'd be mouth open like this is just insanely good and Sitzprobe really highlighted that yeah it was really lovely yeah it was it was honestly as an audience member as well the the power of the vocal power collectively was really affecting and like the bride was like an old swimming pool yeah with the acoustic really it was it was gorgeous well done well done lovely.

[29:58] Sadie Kempner: Oh so Sadie mentioned that you did have a couple of special special visitors who came to see it who came to see it um the lovely original Carrie Lindsay Haightley came to see it as well as a few other original cast members um Kenny and Michelle yeah incredible yeah it was so lovely so lovely to have them there and they were so generous in their food they kind of stood around with us all afterwards with me still covered in blood and kind of um did a bit of a debrief with us and talked about their experience it was just yeah it was a bit of a dream come true it was it was and it was so nice to see like they'd stayed friends for so long and I think that will I think that will be the same um for our production that I can see myself staying friends with um the gang for quite quite a long time um I don't know what it is about the show bonds made for life well we've said this a few times on on the podcast you know whatever experiences different casts of carry have whether they're bad or good often they come out the other end of the the process with this very kind of close friendship and um it's it's really interesting to hear you say that I was going to ask you just before we let you go what you think you take away from this experience this this sounds really naff but I feel like doing Carrie is the most like present I've been on stage and I'm usually someone that is really in my head and like analyzing as I go along but with Carrie I just completely let go is completely in the moment and I had the best time and it's on stage I enjoyed every moment and that is something that I'm going to carry I will carry to other shows to just stay as present as possible don't over analyze things sometimes what you do is going to be rubbish and that's all right but in the end it will all come out well and I think that is something that I'm going to take away with me um yeah yeah I think not not too different actually like I think there's so much in playing I don't there's a classic my mother thing when um she came to see it she said well it's really it's amazing to see you play against type and normally I play the kind of the flirty one or the or the bitchy one and it was really it was a real like challenge for me to play the underdog and the and also the kind of really emotionally kind of complicated one and I think that was a real a challenge for me that I could like take a lot away from and and and also kind of the literal kind of the vocal challenge as well it gave me a lot of confidence and I could like feel my voice develop as we rehearsed and that was really exciting um and just the kind of social element as well I've never felt so plugged into a cast kind of part of it all and and that's hard to do when you're playing carry especially because they have so many rehearsals without you and there's so much there's so much that is really kind of different and divided among the cast and you're just having totally different experiences as I said before um but it was really wonderful it was a really wonderful time yeah it was well thank you both so much not only for coming today but for all of the work you threw into that show it was I know how you know it was a challenge but it was so much fun to do it with you guys so thank you.

[33:27] Ellie McWilliam: Thank you so much.

[33:28] Sadie Kempner: No thank you.

[33:33] Ellie McWilliam: So amazing that Lindsay and Kenny and Shelley came along it was so nice to see them and I was sitting a few years behind them and I was like oh god what do they think about it do they hate it are they gonna leave at the interval but they were so nice they they stuck around and had a lovely chat with us all and yeah the nice the nicest people they are lovely yeah absolutely lovely well thank you um to Sadie and Ellie for coming in it's so nice to see them um and thank you of course to the rest of of the company right they were so amazing to work with it was it was as I say it was an amazing experience and a real kind of bucket list thing for me to do yeah now talking of cast members from the original production you mentioned earlier that you got to meet even more people from the carrier verse while you were writing the book who were some of your favorites

[34:12] Chris Adams: oh wow well I mean it was great to speak to I mean I spent a lot more time speaking to Dean and of course um the other two writers the show Michael Gore and and Lawrence D Cohen who we weren't able to chat to the first time on the podcast because of their um schedule but I got to speak to them for the book which was fantastic so it was great to to hear their side of the story um and speak to a lot more people involved in the music side of things which I found really interesting um you know the original MDs and the original orchestrators um lots of people involved in the design of the original production but I always love talking to the cast members and um you know we've spoken to some fantastic people for the podcast as we've gone along they just all have these incredibly unique experiences and memories um so it was yeah it was great to speak to more people who are actually in the show I loved it yeah got to catch them all

[34:58] Chris Adams: yeah how many original cast members are in the book you know I was adding them until the very last minute and I was counting up this morning from the original cast I think I've included interviews with 18 original cast members

[35:08] Ellie McWilliam: that's very impressive

[35:09] Chris Adams: it's quite a lot and one person that I really loved speaking to um who we hadn't managed to track down actually for the original podcast episodes but um I managed to speak to her for the book was a lady called Rosemary Jackson um and the really interesting thing about Rosemary is that as well as being in very dance heavy ensemble yeah Debbie Ellen high kicks

[35:32] Sadie Kempner: We asked Rose, who was just a teenager at the time, how she ended up bagging an audition for Carrie. It's such a brilliant Broadway story involving bumping into Carrie choreographer Debbie Allen in a lift. I was a college student and somehow convinced my mom to let me come to New York to audition and take classes and things of that nature. I got on an elevator going to a class and Debbie Allen got on the elevator right after me and I was absolutely speechless. We go up to the, I'm going to like the sixth floor. She got off on maybe the fourth floor and the elevator closed after she got off. And I thought, oh my God, I can't believe I didn't say anything. So I went back down to where she got off on, followed her, kind of weaved around until I found out where she was, slid my resume and picture, a horrible picture and a resume full of lies, under the door.

And I don't know who opened the door and said, is this yours? And I said, yes, would you please give that to Ms. Allen? And he did. And she, I stood there for a minute, they closed the door, I stood there for a minute and nothing happened. So as I was beginning to walk away, the young man opened the door and said, we're in a meeting right now, but she wants you to come to, and it was the address of the audition that was happening in like four days for Carrie. I didn't even know what it was for. I didn't even care what it was for, but I was going to show up to that audition. So I went to the audition and everything went well. Then I didn't hear anything for like two years. It went completely quiet, but I was thrilled I had at least gotten the opportunity to dance in front of Debbie Allen.

[37:38] Sadie Kempner: Now, as we know from our many hours of discussion, the original producers of Carrie dropped out around this point and there was a real struggle to raise enough funds to get the show up and running. It wasn't exactly classic Broadway fare. Meanwhile, everyone who auditioned in New York was left without any closure. Rose went and got a job on a cruise ship as a dancer. And during this time, Terry Hands signed up to direct Carrie. A new producer was found and things got back on track. Two years later, I'm on a cruise ship dancing and my mother calls me from Louisiana and says, Debbie Allen just called. And I went, no way. And she said, yeah, they want you to get off the boat and meet them in England.

And I went, no way. I got off the boat in Barbados and flew to Britain and there you go. What's more incredible, in my opinion, is they could have hired any dancer from New York. I mean, certainly there were a billion amazing dancers in the city. The fact that she remembered me was crazy and that she had to literally hunt me down and they paid for me to get to Britain. They had already been in rehearsals like two weeks. So I would have probably replaced me 10 times in two weeks, but they just, they stuck with it until I could get my things together and get off the boat and get to London.

[39:03] Sadie Kempner: So suddenly Rose found herself in the slightly less glamorous location of a West London rehearsal room with the cast split down the middle between Americans and Brits. Putney is very similar to a Caribbean cruise just in terms of the vibe. Absolutely. Probably a bit of a culture shock, especially because we know how intense those dance rehearsals were. I was, well, I was already late, so I was in a panic. I had to play catch up the entire time. Rehearsals were everything you'd expect a Debbie Allen rehearsal to be. They were grueling. They were long. They were meticulous. They were fun as hell though. I mean, I don't think I've ever had that much fun on a job in my life. Everybody was just so young and excited and enthusiastic about the possibility of this thing that we were creating.

The divide disappeared almost immediately because we had so much in common. We were all young and enthusiastic. We were all hungry. We were all just these amazing dancers who really wanted to do this thing really, really well.

[40:41] Sadie Kempner: Now, as well as having to master Debbie Allen's intense choreography, Rose had another interesting challenge. All of the understudies were a part of the ensemble. One day Terry Hance just called me in and said, I'd like you to sing this song. And I started singing. I did the song and he said, okay, you're going to be Carrie's understudy. And I was like, cool. Of course, Lindsay's never going to get sick, but this is awesome. And so the time was divided a lot when I was doing my ensemble work for the most part. And then I would go after the ensemble was released and catch up on the Carrie part. So, or sometimes Lindsay had an interview or Lindsay had a fitting or whatever it was, I would jump in and do blocking so that we could kind of keep the ball moving forward and then run back and teach it to Lindsay. So, it was a lot of juggling.

[41:29] Sadie Kempner: What did she think about Terry Hance's infamous classical vision for the show? What a nice man. He was just a gentle, kind man. Very clear on his vision, even though it went over many people's heads, including mine most of the time, but he was very clear about what he wanted. And we were going to work toward that thing, whatever his vision was, that's what we were going to work toward. I totally trusted him. I know I did. We didn't understand a whole lot of things, but we were young and if we were gonna wear these Greek looking costumes, I guess that's what we were doing. I think as a cast, the younger people just trusted the powers that be. We trusted Dean and the music and the score and we just trusted them as bizarre as it was.

[42:55] Sadie Kempner: What does Rose remember most about the experience? It was all just a party. It was a rehearsal and then a party every single day. I could literally, I could do the show tomorrow. That's how embedded in my brain it is. It really, really is. It had quite an impact and I think because I got to do both sides, I got to be the ensemble and have the fun and do all the high school shenanigans and be Carrie, I think that's why it kind of just sticks in my brain so because both were completely different experiences. All the musical numbers stick out, every single one of them. I just thought the music was so good and fun and I go back now and I think about the lyrics and I'm like, oh my gosh, we were promoting the worst things on the planet. The opening number literally, I mean, by today's standards, you can't go up to a young person and say you need to be thinner. You need to be thinner or the boys won't like you.

[43:27] Sadie Kempner: Rose formed a very special relationship with Darlene Love, who was playing gym teacher, Miss Gardner. When I arrived at the show, I was late, two weeks late, completely behind in every way and I was a train wreck. They would go right, I would go left and I would hear this laughter in the back, in the corner, but it wasn't a laugh at you kind of laugh. It was a, oh, how cute is this child, just kind of laughter and that was the first day I was there and I had to stay after to try to catch up and she stayed. I didn't know why, but she stayed and just sort of was encouraging and really, really just sweet and then when I was done, she walked me to the apartment and she became my mom almost immediately, like she's my mom.

[43:57] Sadie Kempner: They're still incredibly close and Rose still works with Darlene whenever she needs any choreography or movement for her concerts. I don't even think about it as work because she's literally, my daughter knows her as grandma, so yeah, yeah, but we have worked together. I think she saw just completely how young and inexperienced and I think she just literally said, let me take this poor child before something happens to her. I remember her saying to me when we walked to the apartment, the very first day, child, where's your coat? So sweet.

[44:48] Sadie Kempner: So what has she taken away from working on Carrie all these years later? How did Carrie change her life? It gave me a career. I knew it was what I always wanted to do. It probably would have taken me a lot longer to get here and get started. I don't know a bunch of people who just kind of plop into a Broadway show. It was such an amazing experience because it wasn't just Broadway, it took me overseas and the whole, the whole picture of it just was beyond. I think that being Carrie's understudy and being a part of the ensemble gave me perspective on a lot of levels. It set the standard for me and I'm going to say just this one little thing because it sounds, it sounds crazy, but as many things as can be said about Carrie, the standard was always really, really high. From the musicians to the director, everybody had this really high expectation of how you were going to show up in the room and if you're going to be a part of a flop, go big.

[45:48] Chris Adams: Amazing stories, right? Incredible. Well, thank you so much to Rose for sharing those brilliant memories. You know what? I think it's about time that we wrapped up. I think someone needs to use the studio for another podcast.

[45:56] Holly Morgan: What's theirs about?

[45:57] Chris Adams: I think I heard them saying it's a 10-parter about the thought process behind casting Cheryl Cole in 222, A Ghost Story. Niche, but those in glass houses.

[46:06] Holly Morgan: And Irene, we would go bowling if you really cared.

[46:10] Chris Adams: I think he's saying he doesn't understand the reference. He should listen to the bloody podcast then, shouldn't he? Pipe it into his brain, there's still time.

[46:20] Holly Morgan: Well, that's about it for now from us other than to say one last happy birthday, Carrie the Musical.

[46:27] Chris Adams: Oh, and Tom. Yes, happy birthday. Thank you for changing lives. Not you, Tom, I mean Carrie the Musical. Is that too much? I don't think so. We heard from so many people involved in the different versions of the show about how it changed both their professional and personal lives. And remember that gorgeous bonus episode with all the fans talking about how the show had impacted them? I think we should raise a toast to Carrie. There's never been a musical like her. Cheers.

[47:00] Holly Morgan: Cheers. See you in around 35 years, February 2058.

[47:06] Chris Adams: I thought we were going to do this again in the summer.

[47:09] Holly Morgan: Oh yeah, and we'll probably be dead in 35 years.

[47:12] Chris Adams: Oh god. Well, yeah, I mean, fair enough, maybe. Let's say the summer for now then, not 2058. Let's go for a few months.

[47:20] Holly Morgan: I'm down. Buy the book.

[47:22] Chris Adams: Oh god, yeah, thanks. See you in the summer. Bye.

[47:26] Holly Morgan: If you enjoyed Out for Blood, please leave us a lovely review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It helps us reach more and more people in the future. You can also go back and find some great pictures and videos from our previous episodes on our socials and Out for Blood podcast on Instagram and Facebook and Out for Blood pod on Twitter.

[47:40] Holly Morgan: Out for Blood was hosted and produced by me, Holly Morgan, and me, Chris Adams. Sound engineering and editing by Tom Moores. Tanni Jervis is our audio consultant. Original music by Odin Orne-Hilmarsen, artwork by Rebecca Pitts, and childcare by Richard Hawkins. Against his will. Thanks again to our guests today, Sadie Kempner and Ellie McWilliams, and of course, the lovely Rosemary Jackson. Out for Blood is a proud member of the Broadway Podcast Network.