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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. Check us out at mtca.com. And today, we welcome back Victoria Bussert, now representing Oberlin College on the podcast for our final episode of season four of the pod. For our newer listeners, this is another one of our college deep dive episodes where we explore the landscape of the college theater world and try to demystify this daunting audition process one episode at a time. And oh boy, is this a much-anticipated episode. We've had a bunch of listeners reach out inquiring when we were going to have Vicki back on the podcast to discuss the new program at Oberlin. The answer I gave was, as soon as we were legally allowed to.

Vicki wanted to finish out her time with Baldwin Wallace in a respectful manner, which meant not actively promoting another program concurrently. And so that determined the timing here. But how nice for us to get to do this as our final episode of season four as we head into our summer break. And as I mentioned in the previous episode, during the break, we're going to have some fun, different content for you, as well as you'll get all of those episode toppers I mentioned with updates on how the landscape has shifted in the past four years. One of those toppers will be our very first college episode and having Vicki on the pod so many moons ago. And now this is becoming an act two episode for her.

Well, of course, it's our act one episode for Oberlin. But we are also scheduled to have Jennifer Hemphill, who's Vicki's successor at Baldwin Wallace as our season opener in August. So of course, pending no scheduling issues arise, we have that scheduled but not recorded. We will have that for you so you can hear about BW's new direction as well. And of course, those toppers, that's not just for these two schools, but you'll get to hear the latest as far as we know it on all schools and movement, again, to the best of our ability in all of the different episodes as we get. The other thing we'll be rolling out on our break is some audio blogs for you. So for those of you who don't like scouring the internet for blogs, but do like to hear those little tidbits and my takeaways as I talk about the process at the end of these episodes, I'm going to be giving you a dramatic reading of some of my blogs that I've written for MTCA, which you can also find on our website at mtca.com under media.

You'll find both the blog and the podcast under media. And for those that don't mind reading, I do invite you to check out some of those other great blogs that some of our coaches and alumni have written as well. All right. You all are having wonderful Junes and Julys, and I hope you have a great July while we're gone, and we will be back in August. I'll see many of you MTCA current students in person at our big Summer Faculty Masterclass week, where you might even get me in a class. Stay tuned for that. And then digitally, of course, in our webinars, I'll be at the Common App Specifics webinar that's on July 24th, but please don't miss the Wildcard webinar on July 10th as well. And I'll be back on this very podcast live before you know it.

It's not really live to you, but it's live experiencing, reacting to the world as we see it in some video and audio form soon enough. And until then, enjoy this episode with Victoria Bussert from Oberlin College.

[3:21] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be welcoming back Victoria Bussert from Oberlin College. You've all heard the wonderful bio before. She's directed over 400 shows across three continents. Music School Central named her one of the 10 legendary music professors teaching today. We name her pretty legendary herself, the very first college deep dive professor that we had on the podcast. Now 200 episodes later, here we are. She ran the program at Baldwin Wallace University for 27 years and is now head of musical theater at Oberlin College, which is located in Oberlin, Ohio. They take about 20 students per class and they're offering a brand new BM in music theater that we're going to dive deep into today. Vicki, welcome back on the pod. How are you feeling today?

[4:14] Victoria Bussert: Oh, I feel great. It is such an honor to be here with you. I love it. I feel like it's coming home.

[4:20] Charlie Murphy: Oh, I was, we are having too much fun in the pre-show. I was getting too excited. I literally told because we're going to record. I got to get some of this good stuff. So we'll see if we can get it. You know, I usually start off most episodes, just sort of giving professors a chance to expand a bit about their background. So I'm still, you're so welcome to do that here though. I imagine some people have heard you previously on the pod as well. I'd love to hear, so I'd love to hear your background in general, but I'd love to also kind of talk a little bit globally about the conversation in your journey to Oberlin. So just sort of the pre-Baldwin Wallace episodes, you know, that act of your life, but also then like, what was the decision to move on and start this new opportunity?

[5:01] Victoria Bussert: Yeah. Thank you for asking that. You know, my background is as a professional director and I have my MFA in directing from Northwestern, which was at getting that degree at a time when women weren't getting degrees as directors. And I didn't really have any intention of teaching. I spent 10 years working around this country and other countries as a professional director. And then I had the opportunity to move into academia, which was very educational for me, as well as hopefully for my students. And over the years I had had the opportunity to consult for many schools who were looking to start musical theater programs, which was also very, very educational because when I started out, there were between 20 to 25 New York showcases.

And I think this past year there were over 200, you know, and that tells you something about the popularity of the art form. And I know there's a lot of conversation right now about, are there too many programs out there? And I just did an interview last week about, well, why are you starting yet another program if there's so many? This was the opportunity for me to create from the ground up something that utilized all of my professional directing experience, along with all of my academic experience. And I've certainly learned a lot over the past 30 plus years of directing and 20 plus years in academia. And really, and looking where our industry has gone, especially post COVID, you know, we are an incredibly fluid art form.

And I was interested in how do we stay absolutely at the cusp of what this art form is, which you have to do if you are training the next generation of young artists. So Oberlin decided that they wanted to create a program from the ground up, meaning instead of saying, well, we have a fantastic department of theater, which they do, and we have, you know, a world-class conservatory of music, it's ranked number five in the world. They said, instead of like taking faculty from those two areas and, you know, putting them together and saying, now it's music theater, they said, no, we're going to do this differently. I think a lot about my mentor, Jerry Friedman was one of the initial teachers at Juilliard for Jon Hausman.

And I've been thinking a lot about that, you know, recently about how Jon Hausman hand-picked faculty to train the next generation of theater artists. And I feel like Oberlin has given us the same opportunity in our art form. So we are literally starting with voice faculty, four voice teachers specializing in musical theater. One of them having had a 10-year career on Broadway, one of them having his master's in music theater vocal pedagogy, the other two having very long proven track records teaching music theater rep, which is different. You know, and I think one of the things I loved here is I got to know the opera faculty is it's not competitive. It is, we look at each other with great respect, but we don't pretend like we understand the other person's art form to the level you would want to teach students.

We have added Alex Sanchez, a Broadway choreographer, is joining Lauren Marasek here in Cleveland, who is a resident choreographer at several theaters in the area here. We have the two of them who have created a dance curriculum that involves every student dancing five days a week, all four years. Everybody has a private voice lesson, an hour private voice lesson, every week, all four years. We brought in our own acting specialist, Laura Welsh, who, although she's the leading Shakespearean actress in the Midwest, will be the acting specialist for our students. Our musical theater students. For our music theater students, we've also added a full-time production stage manager, an equity production stage manager, and a full-time sound designer.

Oberlin has built us a $10 million training facility for MT with our own two brand new dance studios, all of our offices, and our own little recording studio that we can set up to record in either of our dance studios. All of it brand new. I can't even go over and show you yet there are so many workmen over there. So the idea, you know, very much like John Hausman and Juilliard, was what happens if we have the top faculty, the best sort of training facility, what will we be able to produce over the next four years? Now, we're not just starting with a freshman class, where the goal is 20 students a year, and we're actually almost entirely full. I was saying to you earlier, much like the transfer portal in football, Oberlin opened the transfer portal of music theater, and we have students from multiple programs who have transferred in. So we will be starting with freshmen, sophomore, junior, and senior classes. We'll be doing our first New York showcase in March for Oberlin.

[11:08] Charlie Murphy: And I can't wait to ask about some of those specifics. I mean, what a professional. You've asked my first three questions of yourself, basically, moving on through as we go. I do just want to underline what you said about the John Hausman at Juilliard. I mean, that is the exact analogy. When I first heard the news, and I was like, this is huge, and my wife was trying to be like, why is it huge? What's so huge about it? I was like, this is like if Juilliard started a musical theater program. It's like that, because it's such a reputable school with the resources that they have and the reputation already in the music world, to then be able to go, we're bringing in a superstar like yourself to come in and take this over, that it really is, you know, it's different than just a new program would be.

[11:44] Victoria Bussert: Yeah, you know, and the other thing that I found interesting, Charlie, is the rigor here. You know, you are surrounded by artists working at the highest level in the world. And that makes all of us up our game. It's such an exciting environment.

[12:04] Charlie Murphy: Okay, so now, as much as we can get into the specifics of curriculum, you already were doing it beautifully with the five days a week and the one hour voice lesson a week. I'd love to kind of hear as much as you can do off the top of your head, at least, what that looks like. So certainly, the most important thing probably for our listeners is what is the freshman through senior year curriculum for people who are starting new. But also, I'm so fascinated, like, bringing in that cohort of a junior, building off of what they've done, like, are they getting the same curriculum they would have gotten as juniors? Are they going back and catching anything up? How do you sort of, if someone coming in, even as a senior, and how do you sort of pick them up and tie those?

[12:37] Victoria Bussert: Yeah, so every single transfer applicant had to sit down and go specifically through their transcripts and have to fill in the missing classes. So we have students who are doing summer school now and after because the requirements here are so much higher in the art form. I think another thing that was really appealing to me, Charlie, is that, yes, there are liberal arts hours that you are required, but they don't tell you which liberal arts classes to take. So there's no math requirement, English requirements. You determine how you're going to spend your liberal arts hours that you must take. The interesting thing here,

[13:27] Victoria Bussert: Both the Department of Theater and the Department of Dance are in the Liberal Arts College. We're in the Conservatory of Music. So let's say you want to double the acting or double the dance, you can spend your liberal arts hours taking classes in theater or in dance, and they fill out your liberal arts classes. And I love that because I've done some work in Europe, and it felt much more, actually in Russia, I directed in Russia. It felt very much like the St. Petersburg Academy when I was working with their students that it is such a deep dive into the artistry of what we do that I feel I can't wait to see the next generation of artists we're able to produce.

[14:16] Charlie Murphy: Yep, I love it. And you're referencing there, I think, earlier, the sort of Josh Grisetti TikTok that went viral of how many BFAs there are. And so in some ways, even though we're talking about BM, but we on this podcast call BFAs and BMs within the same world.

[14:29] Victoria Bussert: Yes, absolutely. But that you're talking about the level of rigor that what you're trying to create is something that is above and beyond just any program.

[14:38] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, and Oberlin has given us that opportunity to do that.

[14:43] Victoria Bussert: I got to create the curriculum from scratch from what I know. And of course, I'm still working as a professional director. So it's always adjusting your curriculum to the industry standards. That is critical. Because we are not gonna rewrite what the industry is demanding. What our job to do is to train our students at a level where they are able to financially support themselves as artists.

[15:10] Charlie Murphy: I love it. And you gave a little hint of this in terms of the sliding scale of what it can be. But just from a global perspective of like, what do the credit hours look like in terms of the, let's call them the artistic, the required artistic, and then the liberal arts options in terms of if you have a percentage. And you mentioned that, yes, could I take some of those liberal arts as additional artistic classes, right? But if I was interested in things like outside of the, if I wanted to have a minor, if I wanted to have some other academic studies, how does that look in terms of percentage of time I'm spending in the conservatory versus, or in artistic classes in general versus in non-artistic classes?

[15:46] Victoria Bussert: Yeah, you're spending about three quarters of your time in artistic conservatory classes. And I'm going to put music theory under artistic as well because these are skill sets that are critical. Even theater history. But again, that 25% you have left over, you determine. So let's say you wanna do, you actually have an MTCA grad that is going to be a freshman here who is minoring in creative writing. The creative writing program at Oberlin is one of the most difficult programs to get into anywhere. And she is going to be getting, Emerson is going to be getting a minor in creative writing. You can get a minor in anything here. You can actually, if you wanna do a fifth year, you can get a double major because the liberal arts college has a different list of requirements than the conservatory of music. However, if you want all your classes to be nothing but artistic, you can do that.

[16:47] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[16:47] Victoria Bussert: I very much believe the student should be in charge.

[16:50] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, it seems like it still slides from that 75, 25, where maybe even you're extending the 25 a little bit more if you're adding more into creative writing, or you can slide the scale to be 90 some percent.

[17:00] Victoria Bussert: Correct, correct. Nobody is going to say in the conservatory of music, you must take this or accept the requirements in the conservatory of music.

[17:10] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Can we talk about the other thing you touched on, which I just think is so fascinating and kind of a unique opportunity to talk about this, being a brand new program that has such established roots already. I just love to talk about how does the transfer portal work in general? I mean, it's a question we get a lot, sometimes just from newer families would be like, can I just transfer into a BFA as a junior? And often the answer is literally, yes, you can transfer, but it can be difficult with credits.

[17:37] Victoria Bussert: Right. So all of those credits had to be assessed by Oberlin, not by me. So what Oberlin did is they said, we are opening for this one year, we will open up sort of a transfer portal for anybody. And we have transfers from multiple schools. But yes, they still had to audition. They still had to quadruple the number of students in some way, maybe not quite quadruple, but you really were auditioning students across different years. If I did not know them, they had to audition. If I knew them, I could use my knowledge of their performing skills. They still had to go through, you know, a theory test. They still have to go through sitting down individually, one by one, going through, this is what can transfer. This is what you would have to make up. So we actually have one transfer from the opera department at Oberlin transferring over to musical theater. So it's transferred a million different ways that has created such an exciting student body in this area.

[18:53] Charlie Murphy: And how much of that is now, I mean, I imagine that was a unique year in the first year, but how much of that is a process that would carry forward if eventually I go, I attended a really good BFA program and I go, you know what? Now I think I want Oberlin as a sophomore. Is that something that could be for future years, people be able to transfer in?

[19:10] Victoria Bussert: Absolutely. But Charlie, I will say, we are going to hold the number at 80 total in the program. You have to lose a student for that. I'm thrilled that I'm at a school that's like, we're holding firm there. We have 80 lockers in our new building. But, you know, even though we're sort of quadrupling the size of our permanent faculty, from what I've experienced, the important thing is that we're not going to increase the size because we want the rigor of the training to serve the students. Not, you know, there are so many great skills that one does gain going through a performing arts program. But our goal is still at the end of the day, facilitating our students' love of this to be able to support themselves doing this.

So that is still the ultimate goal. Although we will have students who will become teachers, who will become agents, who will become directors. I have so many students now who are interested in pursuing directing. I'm really proud of that. What a shock, I've been a few years out.

[20:24] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, well, I love having assistants on my productions, whether they're professional or academic. But I also think it's, you know, it's a four-year education that I want to be worthwhile for every single student.

[20:39] Victoria Bussert: Yeah. Look, can we talk about those seniors? So you mentioned the transfer portal and coaches. So how many of the current seniors are ones that already were with you from Baldwin-Wallace and are people that you already have a relationship with? And what would it look like, I guess, for the students who are upperclassmen, who that's not the case in terms of their showcasing? And I mean, it's a pretty quick turnaround. I just know from, I remember from day one senior year, I was like, okay, time to start thinking about showcase and how I want to represent myself industry-wise. What's that going to look like in the first year?

[21:08] Victoria Bussert: Well, honestly, I was not really very intimately involved in the transfer process because I chose to teach all last year at Baldwin-Wallace. I'm grateful for the opportunities I had at Baldwin-Wallace. And I was very concerned about not walking away from my students. So honestly, it was a matter of Oberlin saying, hey, the transfer portal is open, students talking to the administration here about what would that look like, and then making the best decision for themselves. So what we are doing is sort of taking what I instigated as the initial curriculum 28 years ago and putting it on steroids. So because I am able to focus classes on this art form, we're able to do it at a very rigorous level.

The most important thing to me this entire year was everybody make the best decisions for themselves. We have students transferring in from other schools who lost an entire year and decided it was worth it to them. So it really was such an individual choice for every student and was really important to me to not be pressuring anybody because I don't know what's best for each student. They have to make that decision themselves.

[22:43] Charlie Murphy: And can we just talk a little bit, I know we talked about it previously on the Baldwin-Wallace episode, but can we talk a little bit about what that launch into the business looks like for you? I mean, I think maybe it's not unique anymore, though I think when you started doing it, it felt relatively unique, the level of service that they got from you throughout their experience of launching into the business. We had Marcus Martin, who was one of your grads on the pod, who talked about like, you're at his wedding.

[23:07] Victoria Bussert: Yes!

[23:08] Charlie Murphy: That's not necessarily the same thing. In terms of the closeness and how much, so many Baldwin-Wallace grads would talk about how much you continue to sort of be a presence in their professional lives afterwards. So what does, I guess I get to some of it, but what does that look like in terms of like showcasing and then your continued mentorship?

[23:27] Victoria Bussert: Yeah. You know, Charlie, I started my career out of Northwestern as a casting director. So I actually was the person going to the showcases looking for talent. And, you know, that was an interesting sort of its own kind of grad school experience where you spend a couple of years literally watching showcases, Juilliard, Yale, NYU, and learning what is helpful to the industry and what is not. And that is a skill set that I'm thrilled that I had because it allowed me to develop my own way of showcasing my students that has proven to be, you know, relatively successful in the industry. Because I'm a working director, I continue to have very strong relationships with agents and managers and casting directors in the professional arena. I believe in training students to be able to employ them.

[24:31] Victoria Bussert: So Oberlin has an exclusive relationship with Great Lakes Theater Festival in Cleveland, the Idaho Shakespeare Festival, and the Lake Tahoe Shakespeare Festival. So we have the ability to audition and hire our students at those theaters. Oberlin also has a thing called winter term, which is the month of January, where students aren't in regular classes, but can do a deep dive, whether it's in acting or dance or on camera, which is a critical element today. But one of the things we're really excited about is the artistic director of those three regional companies, the resident choreographer of those three companies, and the artistic director of the Beck Center for the Arts in Lakewood, which is our partner where we do our winter musical.

Each one of those people will be working with our first-year students for an entire week during winter term. Almost like an extended week-long audition. So that those people who do the hiring will have a very solid idea of the first-year students and can watch them develop and be thinking in terms of how they can utilize them professionally. That is something that only used to really exist in grad programs, between grad programs and regional theaters. We have that exclusively with those companies with Oberlin.

[26:06] Charlie Murphy: Yep, and Vicki, you're really just pointing out my mea culpa of not reading your own degree into the record, which is normally how we begin your bio, but Vicki does have an MA in theater and an MFA in directing from Northwestern University and a BA in theater dance from Burrard College. Now we've done it, we've read it into the record. There it is. We've squeezed it in.

[26:25] Victoria Bussert: Let's talk a little bit about discipline focus. So, you know, as a BM, I think one might tend to assume, is that mean we're a little bit more music focused of the musical theater versus other BFAs? Do we feel like that? That seemed like that was true of Baldwin-Wallace. Do we feel like that will carry on in Oberlin that compared to a sort of standard BFA, for what it's worth, you know, for whatever that characterization is? Would there be a little bit more emphasis on the music of it all than there would be on the acting and the dance?

[26:47] Victoria Bussert: I don't think you can hire.

[26:54] Victoria Bussert: A Broadway choreographer and say that anymore, you know. And I don't think you can dance five days a week and say it's really music heavy. Part of creating this curriculum and hiring this faculty was really making it a triple threat program. One of the things that Alex Sanchez said to me when he interviewed was, you know, he just did Paradise Square on Broadway two years ago. He said, you know, music theater programs have to train in a more rigorous level if they want their students hired right out of school. And I'm, I, you know, I was, you are preaching to the choir, my friend. So no, I would say the skill set demands in all three areas are equal and high. I don't think this is the right program for people who want to like dip a toe in and see, gee, I, you know, I loved doing this in high school.

I'm not sure if I want to do it. This is for people who are like, I thrive in this art form. Then I think they will thrive here. First and second year students start dancing at 8am every morning, five days a week. They start their day. Half of our listeners were like, nope, no, thank you. I'm out. Yes. Well, good, good. I do think and then you're going to have other listeners who are like, yes, I want to dance five days a week, you know, five days a week. It's the 8am of it all that I was.

[28:21] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Oh, well, yeah. Um, and then going right into their required music classes, then going into music theater workshop, or their acting workshop, then into quite we have actually Oberlin already has five choirs on campus that specialize in different things. We are hiring Dale Reiling, who, you know, full transparency, I'm married to Dale Reiling, who was the conductor, did the last three and a half years of Phantom, did six years on Broadway with Les Mis as the conductor and music supervisor, has done Mary Poppins, Miss Saigon, just came back from China, where he was doing Sunset Boulevard with Sarah Brightman. We have hired him to start a music theater choir, same technical things that you learn in any choir, but using our rep. And it's sort of crazy that that's revolutionary. So that students will have a two semester choir requirement as well. And then dinner and then rehearsals at night.

[29:35] Victoria Bussert: Are they dancing during dinner or they have to do acting exercises while they eat or what?

[29:40] Charlie Murphy: We tell them not to. You know, what's funny Charlie is they discovered here that they had to lock down the conservatory from midnight to 7am because people weren't going home. The instrumentalists were staying in practicing all night. So again, the mindset is so different and exciting.

[30:01] Victoria Bussert: Yeah, and it totally makes sense. And I appreciate the characterization of the sort of triple threat focus there. Well, it was just worth noting that in the BM of it all, you know, even having two semesters of a choir requirement is not necessarily true of every BFA. I mean, again, there are some BFAs that would look very much like this if they're in the school, but sometimes it'll be a little bit more active. I'd love to hear just from an acting perspective. You mentioned Oberlin theater majors, you know, that are existed in being housed in a different school. How do those interactions work between the students who might be interested in theater and musical theater? When you talk about auditioning for shows, when you talk about sharing any classes, how would that look?

[30:35] Victoria Bussert: Auditions for everything are completely open. So anybody in the school can audition. Auditions for the choir are completely open. We have our music theater workshop are our majors only. Again, because we know that 20 is the maximum we don't want, we're not going to have classes of 30 and 40 and pretend like there's time to really delve deeply into the material. We are hoping in the future to be able to offer classes for non-majors, but right now as we're kicking things off, we are all, our faculty is very MT focused.

[31:15] Charlie Murphy: Yep, it totally makes sense. I mean, I do think that can be nice for the non-majors, but I think there's not nothing, there's not nothing, my weird double negative, but there's something that is taken away sometimes from the majors. If there are too many non-majors in classes.

[31:27] Victoria Bussert: Well, the thing is when you have to level the class, it's one thing to level within these majors. It's another thing to level in a bigger population. And we just don't, we want the focus to be, you know, the students have come here for an intensity of education and we want to be able to do that.

[31:45] Charlie Murphy: We've made so many sports analogies on the pod, but it does feel like sometimes if you're on a basketball team and some people are working on, you know, deep shooting threes and other people are working on dribbling, it's like that, that person who's working on dribbling, isn't helping me develop in the same way that I.

[31:57] Victoria Bussert: Okay, Charlie, since you brought up sports again, I can't help myself. One of the things that I've always wanted to do because in my next life, I'm going to be an NFL coach. Yes, I've, I've already decided that. I, I love, my brother is a world ranked tennis player and I was brought up in an athletic home, in an athletic mindset. And I very much believe the crossover between an artist and an athlete in terms of preparing your mind.

[32:31] Victoria Bussert: So, yes. So one of the things that I've been able to add here is our senior class will first semester be training with the football team on Fridays. They will be doing the Friday workouts with the football team. I want them in that environment.

[32:52] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[32:52] Victoria Bussert: And second semester, we have hired their sports psychologist to work directly with our seniors prepping for showcase. Yes. So I want to continue my exploration because I, I saw it growing up. I saw growing up in a household with, you know, a world ranked tennis player, how that mental preparation can really be used in the arts. So, you know, a lot of people talk about, well, nice and, you know, and, and I'm going to quote Sondheim and say, nice is different than good. So I absolutely believe in kindness in training, but I believe in rigor as well.

[33:41] Charlie Murphy: That's, I mean, this is the kind of concept that we've talked about so many times with friends and certainly something on the podcast. That's the first time I've heard it codified into curriculum.

[33:49] Victoria Bussert: That's so because I've said on other interviews when I've been interviewed on podcasts, I think one of the things that I have learned from almost 20 years of this process, it feels like now when I step back from it, such a percentage of a student's success is the psychology, is the being able to walk in a room and share their talents, like, you know, to work on your skill set and grow in terms of what those talents are, of course, is important. But that I knew from the beginning, the number of students you can never tell who, you know, the game day players are who walk in there and can really showcase themselves and maybe even step up, be a little better than they were in the rehearsal. And then there's others who go when the game time comes, whatever the mental block that doesn't allow them to share their true self, it's the equivalent of, you know, showing up and getting the yips or whatever in a sports experience that like I think that's such a huge part of this experience. And I've never heard that codified in curriculum.

[34:40] Victoria Bussert: Well, Charlie, here's the other thing that I believe in. You know, the Olympics is once every four years, showcases once every four years, you prepare the same way you want some inspiration. Go watch the Olympics. How do you prepare for that one or two weeks, that four years? And that's not about, oh, you can do better. It's you want to train with people who will push you. You don't want to be afraid of that competition in the right way. It's the best possible thing. You know, listening to an interview with Simone Biles, it's like you want to be around people who will support and push you. That is what we are creating here.

[35:27] Victoria Bussert: So, you know, as a family of 80 students and 12 faculty and administrative staff, we are going to support one another along every step of those four years as if we are training for an Olympics. Because what showcase really is, you know, is a launch pad. It's a way of here's where I am and I'm launching into the industry. And if I can launch and have an agent or a manager want to sign me post showcase, I am not alone in this industry. And that, for me, is really important because I know the difference it makes in the trajectory of a career.

[36:11] Charlie Murphy: For sure. For sure. And how isolated it is.

[36:13] Victoria Bussert: Yeah, I mean, the other Olympics thing, I think we did this before in the pod, but just the other Olympics thing is having the process for that psychology. You watch them on the sidelines running through their routines. What was that guy, the pommel horse guy who was doing it?

[36:24] Charlie Murphy: Yes.

[36:25] Victoria Bussert: Yes. Yes. That's when you watch professional action, I'll see people in the room just sort of like gabbing. And like for some people, actually, that could be for them. They're like, I like. But I'm like, do you have a process? Is this what you need before you walk in the room? Because that you're about to go in and do your routine like you are about to go in and do your Olympics.

[36:39] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah.

[36:40] Victoria Bussert: And we could spend another three hours talking about this.

[36:42] Charlie Murphy: Now you got me going on sports and art.

[36:45] Victoria Bussert: I've been resisting my takeaways being too sport heavy recently.

[36:47] Charlie Murphy: Oh, I am so about sports and art. And here's the flip side of it is the football coach. When I first met with him in January, he was a little bit like, oh, you're a lot of energy. But, you know, he's also like our football players can't wait to see the show.

[37:03] Victoria Bussert: Yeah. Yeah.

[37:04] Charlie Murphy: It's that kind of like we shouldn't have this separation. And to be in, you know, the thing about Fridays and I did not know this. I should have known this is my for my next career is Fridays tend to be a lighter workout day because of Saturday. But still to be around that mentality and that energy. And I said, listen, we'll we'll come to the national anthem for you. You know, we're going to be there cheering. One of our sophomores is going to be on the team. I've never been prouder.

[37:38] Victoria Bussert: That's so funny. That's so funny.

[37:40] Charlie Murphy: Well, you lead me perfectly. I'd love to talk a little. We talked a little academics, but I love to talk a little campus life stuff. So what what does an Oberlin for people who aren't studying sports? What does Oberlin's football team look like? What is the campus life look like? What is the Greek life? What is the sort of experience of like what an Oberlin student is outside of the theater program?

[37:57] Victoria Bussert: OK, nobody comes to Oberlin to be drafted into the NFL. So these are like a neuroscience who love playing football in high school. So I'm going to preface that. But there's still training for it, right? I mean, they don't take it any less seriously. It's just not where their lives are going to go when they acknowledge that Oberlin does not have Greek life. So there are no sororities or fraternities. Everyone is required to live on campus. This stunningly beautiful, what looks to me like a mini Northwestern or a mini Ivy League school. This gorgeous, gorgeous campus built around Tappan Square. This beautiful sort of small Central Park community is incredibly important here. There are 500 performances a year on campus.

The only dark night are Mondays. So if you are, you know, the arts are the top priority here. If you thrive around artists, you can go to a performance of something every single night except Mondays. Having that kind of energy and that kind of priority, you know, is probably what inspired John Kander and Julie Tamor. And I will say that as a woman who struggled to be taken seriously in grad school as a director, the first school I went to, they said, no, you can major in acting, not in directing. So I transferred Julie Tamor being the first woman to win the Tony as best director of a musical and a graduate of Oberlin said a lot to me. She really inspired me early in my career. And now to be at her school really is important to me.

So the priority of artists, Oberlin itself was created as a utopian community. It was the first school to accept black students, to accept women students. It was the most important stop on the Underground Railroad in Ohio. They are very proud of the community that they have created here. It's called a Town and Gown School so that the town is very supportive of the gown.

[40:21] Victoria Bussert: The graduates that, you know, and you feel it when you're here. It's also just a thriving, small business community. So there are just, you know, it literally still has its own Ben Franklin store. So it's a very safe environment, but an artistically charged environment. We're only 35 minutes away from downtown Cleveland.

[40:46] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[40:46] Victoria Bussert: And it really, it seems like a specific kind of environment. I mean, not completely unique, but pretty specific that there's a real college experience. So it's not, it's not a conservatory only, right? It's a college experience, but that the arts are the focus. I mean, there aren't that many, you know, you, you don't get the rah-rah of a Penn State or whatever, but you do get the elevation of the arts, which is for the, so for some people that go, that's nice to be at a place where this is.

[41:09] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[41:09] Victoria Bussert: 2,500 students, you know, as opposed to 20,000. So, you know, and again, students from all over the world. I think it's interesting that they draw from major metropolitan cities to come spend these four years incubating and then explode back into world-class orchestras and opera companies. And, you know, you see what the conservatory has already accomplished worldwide. This is if the government allows us to keep taking students from all over the world.

[41:43] Charlie Murphy: Truth.

[41:43] Victoria Bussert: Well, speaking of that, so we have international students often who pay full price, let's talk a little bit about costs in terms of, so what does Oberlin look like? So our, our crack research team found a tuition of about 66,000 a year. What does it look like in terms of what most students could expect to pay? And I guess then how those, how you would cobble together scholarships between whether it's academic, whether it's about merit talent, money, you know need money. How does that come in in terms of their interactions with scholarships and you?

[42:14] Victoria Bussert: Yeah. Well, nobody's paying 66,000. You immediately, there's 10 taken off right off the top. However, in terms of scholarshiping, Oberlin is a required needs, full need, full, full proven need school. So they will meet all proven needs. If you have need, they will meet it. It had, there are forms you fill out for proven need, but we have students who are not only, you know, scholarshiped in terms of their training, but their living expenses as well. Um, so it runs the entire gamut. Um, and what they do is they look at, you know, the financial aid forms and they come up with a number and then there is merit scholarship available on top of that.

[43:02] Charlie Murphy: And how does, I know in previous, in your previous stuff, there was more of a, you had kind of pool of money that you had flexibility to play with and it could come in and out. Is there still some flexibility from your end in terms of how you're able to offer scholarships or is it more regimented now?

[43:15] Victoria Bussert: Um, it did. The scholarshiping does not go through me. It goes through admissions. So it is, um, what is important? It is not, I'm, I don't, I'm not going to say it's an inexpensive program. It is not. But I would say, Charlie, it is high value for what you pay. So there is a trade off with that. The number of faculty, the number of opportunities, the level of performance is at a level that does cost more. However, having a higher ed be affordable to families is really important to Oberlin. So it's a lot of, it is all done case by case basis.

[43:59] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Um, my last question before we take a little break and then get into the auditions and admissions of it all, I'd love to just hear a little bit of, you know, you've just done this, I guess at least 20 times, you know, maybe, maybe a little bit more in terms of the, the sophomores, juniors, et cetera. What was the, what is the sort of pitch in terms of why someone ends up signing on the dotted line? Let's say with many of our MTCA students, some are in this freshman class of Oberlin and some are in the upper classes as well. You know, if they've gotten into some other really competitive schools, what is, and maybe they're sitting there going, tell me, tell me why Oberlin, maybe I'm a little nervous cause it's new.

And what is that going to mean? And what's it going to look like in those first couple of years? And am I a guinea pig? And you know, if they're having those concerns, what is your sort of pitch to go, Hey, here, this is why these students did select to choose to sign on the dotted line.

[44:44] Victoria Bussert: This is a faculty with combined 50 years Broadway experience, 50 years academic experience. It's not a new program. It's a new relationship and it's a relationship where we are pooling all of our Broadway and academic knowledge and putting it toward these 20 students per class. So, you know, to me, the idea, it's not, there's no guinea pig sort of involved because we've all been doing this. We just have resources to do it in a brand new level, at a new level of rigor in an atmosphere of extraordinary support and excitement. I will be excited that these first years MTCA students can come back and tell you what is going on here because the idea was to create something that's never existed in music theater training.

I mean, when you think that music theater training in higher ed has only been around since 1968 and so many times it is cobbling together of what already exists. Again, to kind of create in the way the acting program was created at Juilliard is, you know, just really exciting to hire faculty specifically for this discipline who are experts.

[46:15] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[46:15] Victoria Bussert: Well said. All right. And then we'll talk a little bit more about resources on the back end too, because I'm just highlighting that word. So we're taking a little break and we're back in a flash.

[46:25] Charlie Murphy: All right. We are back with Vicki Bussert and we're talking a little bit about the audition and the admissions process. So I'd love to just kind of start from that holistic perspective of like, what does the audition process look like from Oberlin when we talk about prescreens, when we talk about callbacks, when we talk about those final 20 that you're getting to, do you have a sense of like those numbers and like what that would look like in terms of how many people are maybe in the first year, at least applying and then what you're cutting down to the live audition and then what you're cutting down for to get to that 20?

[47:07] Victoria Bussert: You know, as somebody who started out in casting as a casting director and as a professional director, I'm going to be honest with you and just say, I love being in a room live or audition. I know you were a famous detractor of the prescreen for many years.

[47:13] Charlie Murphy: I'm not a fan.

[47:15] Victoria Bussert: We will use prescreens lightly because prescreens are used here by the conservatory in every other area. And in order to make sure I have time to see people, I'm not interested in prescreening down to 150 or 200 people. This year I saw 456 live auditions. And we have 14 days audition day schedule, including two days on Zoom because we want to make it financially viable for every student. And I will say, you know, a lot of students will say, well, is it, if I audition on Zoom, is that, you know, work against me? I accept students who audition on Zoom. I, and I will see every single audition. I want, you know, again, with my casting director background, I don't need to spend 20 minutes for students, but I do, I kind of recognize students whose energy I think will work well with our faculty and I love meeting new artists. It's exciting to me.

[48:29] Victoria Bussert: It's, you know, I have a class of 21 students, incoming students, none of whom I knew, and I couldn't be more excited than to have them here with me. So it's the process to me. Yes, there is a prescreen, different forms of prescreening. There is some live prescreening that we will do. We're going to test out this year, the idea of early decision, but again, to be held sort of lightly. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Although I do like the opportunity that for some students, if they know this is where they want to be, to give them that opportunity to lock in early so they don't have to do six months of this. So yeah, we try to make it, you know, for me, just like I did as a casting director and as I do as a professional director, it's a lovely way to meet a new person.

It isn't about, it's not an, I don't need to give anybody an in-person evaluation. I don't kind of agree with that audition style. I just want people to be able to come into the room and share who they are. I'm interested in, you know, what they've chosen. I still like students to bring in three pieces. You're going to ask them the next question. You're paying for this for more. The reason I do that is because I try to maintain a little spontaneity in the room. You will see students go from room to room to room and just be on autopilot. And I try to break through that by, you know, what, what music do you have? And then choosing to, and just to let it feel a little bit less planned because auditioning is really just a vehicle for us to get to see who you are.

[50:25] Victoria Bussert: And if everything is planned, although I'm, I'm a huge fan of maybe happy ending, but I feel like those helper bots are not like robotic meaning non-human. I mean, I feel like those robots teach us a lot about humanity and that's really what auditioning should be. You should be choosing things you love to sing that are done through your perception of the world, which is going to be different than my perception of the world and you are sharing who you are. And that's really what auditioning is for me. We have you in the pre-screen. We have you record your monologue. We don't do that live. Um, honestly, because I should be able to see your acting through your singing. There's no difference except that you're doing it on a pitch. Um, and we will do live dance calls in every venue that allows us to do live dance calls, because we also want you to get to know our dance teachers.

[51:23] Charlie Murphy: For those who don't already know the previous, uh, infamous Vicki audition, the idea of, I think you said this, but you would bring in three songs and then the student brings in three songs and you might pick two of those songs. But also the idea of, we might go through your book a little bit and see what else you got. Let's just, even if we don't sing them all, I'm just interested in what you got.

[51:39] Victoria Bussert: Oh gosh. I wouldn't say inspection. I would say, you know, what else do you want to share with us? You know, it's not doing the right thing, you know, because you're, you're trying to cut through a student trying to do something right. There is no right. It's an art, you know? So it's, how can you allow yourself to just be present in the room? We're gonna, we're gonna breathe the same air. We're gonna, you know, say hi, like human beings.

[52:15] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[52:16] Victoria Bussert: As you're narrowing down, you know, of the 456, I imagine you like a decent chunk of those students. As you're narrowing down sort of your yeses into what will actually be the first 20 students, like what are the biggest factors as you're sort of between all the ones that you go, this was, these are some great auditions. What makes you want to make someone an Oberlin student, right? Um, what are the things that make you go, okay, this is a definite yes. And these two are, I'm still looking, but I'm leaning in this direction. What are those things that you're thinking about as you sort of go into the true yes pile?

[52:44] Victoria Bussert: I think that they're in an audition situation. There are always people who spark for you. And what's amazing is if you spark for them and then you can really feel that energy go, you know, those are the ones where it's like, I think, I think I can really help. I think I can really, um, be your mentor and really help this extraordinary talent that I'm seeing. I think it's so important for students to be auditioning the schools and to really be serious about their checklist. You know, Oberlin's a small town. If you want a big city, you're not going to be happy here. You know, it's so, I think you have to have your checklist and then we have our checklist in terms of, oh, what they're sharing and, and their excitement about the material that they've chosen, their preparation, something as simple as, did you read the script? You know, why the, the character sings here as opposed to speaking, how are you then proceeding?

[53:48] Victoria Bussert: How are you putting that into how you're going to share the song? These are all like things that get us excited about you and hopefully get you excited about sharing what you're doing. I love it. If anybody walks in with an instrument, I guarantee you, I'm going to have them play it and I don't care what the instrument is. I'm a cellist. I want all of the arts, you know? And it's like if you design the clothes you're wearing that day, tell me about them. I mean, you know, you're looking for people who are willing to be sort of fearless in the world and who want to continue to grow and thrive. You don't want to go to a school where you're just going to like hold steady. You know, and I think one of the things that is, let's say you're an incredible singer and you're nervous about dance.

Make sure you're going to a strong dance school. You've got to work on the things you don't do well. That's and that requires a certain fearlessness and we can see that in a dance call, right? It's, you know, you've got the people who hide in the back and the people who are like out there doing it no matter what it is, it's come to me, let's do it.

[55:03] Charlie Murphy: Well, I had that exact question written down when you mentioned, you know, the skill sets are equal and high in terms of the training at Oberlin. You know, how does that interact in terms of being admitted? I imagine you're not admitting only people who are quote unquote triple threats, meaning that they're...

[55:17] Victoria Bussert: Oh no, no. How does that interact as you sort of look at pulling and putting together a class talent wise and what level they have to be at? They'd have to be really strong in one of them. They have to be strong on two of the three. Is there some version or is it sort of individual, unique to the individual? Yeah, I don't have like a number ranking system or any of that sort of, it's an art, you know, and I think again, Charlie having done 10,000 auditions when I was the casting director, I don't think of it that way. I think of people who make me excited. It's kind of like the thing where, you know, you're supposed to be clearing out your closet and you hold a shirt and it's like, does this spark joy? I feel...

[56:01] Charlie Murphy: You're really condoing your students is what you're telling me.

[56:04] Victoria Bussert: It is. It's like, you can feel it. You can feel it when there's joy in the room and excitement and they visit campus and they feel they can thrive in this environment. I feel like it's so much more like that as opposed to, oh, there are five singing and a three. No, that's just to sort of say that just because we heard, Hey, I'm dancing five days a week and the level of dance is high doesn't mean that if I'm not an advanced dancer, I'm not necessarily appropriate for, oh, I think it's the exact opposite. Dancing five days a week means if you're not a dancer at all, we're going to be able to move you up to a level where you're going to be comfortable going to a mover's call. That's the goal. What fun would it be if everybody came in, you know, oh, you're all fives across the board. Go work.

[56:49] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. What about the academic side of things? So how does it work with academics for Oberlin in terms of like the timing of the applications of when you see students, have they already been admitted academically? How does it work then with, you know, how the interaction to the ultimate yes happens with the office of admission?

[57:05] Victoria Bussert: So again, because we're the conservatory, if you were to double degree, so if you wanted to a double degree with the liberal arts college, you would have a different set of expectations academically. But not necessarily get in with that creative writing degree if you wanted to double major. Yeah. So the thing is with the conservatory, it's not a deal breaker. Low academic. The conservatory understands that young artists their grades may not look the same as other grades. So what they do if they see that academically your grades have not been at a certain level, they interview you and they, you talk to them. And I think I had three students who were in that situation this year and they passed all three of them because they said, we understand why they, they were very clear about why these grades were at this time, what was going on in their lives. And I think it's such a personal kind of investment.

[58:11] Charlie Murphy: I love that. And are you interacting with parts of the academic application? Do you read the essays? Do you read letters of rec? Or are you just looking at the auditions?

[58:18] Victoria Bussert: They're all available to me, but I try not to be swayed on that until the very end. That's a tiebreaker if it's between two people.

[58:27] Charlie Murphy: It's a tiebreaker. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't have a lot of tiebreakers. I mean, I, what I have is...

[58:34] Victoria Bussert: You're going with the spark. You're seeing what light, it sounds woo woo, but it's true. I mean, true. I mean, really? Yeah. It's how I cast a professional show. Of course. I mean, it's not always about the best singer or the best. It's the person who brings the most of themselves. I say it all the time and kids don't believe me, but I say, it's not the best 20 auditions. It's just like, it's not the best talent of kids. No, no, no. Nor is it when you're casting professionally. So I use so many of those same tools to me. It's you're excited about somebody or you're not. So what I have ultimately, when I go to create a class is I have a pool, you know, and then I'm waiting to hear what students are interested in Oberlin.

[59:20] Charlie Murphy: Yep. Okay. So now that's, you lead me perfectly into the next question. I'd love to talk about how interaction with you works after an audition when you're interested in a student. So how do you like to be kept in touch with, how might you keep in touch with them? You know, this could be true. Certainly if students are on an official wait list, but whether they're also just in that pool of consideration that we now are becoming more and more infamous, right? If you said yes to them and then now they're negotiating between schools, how do you like those interactions to go generally in terms of how often you want to be kept in touch with how you want to be kept in touch with what has worked in the past and what do you like?

[59:51] Victoria Bussert: There is never too much keeping in touch. So any emails, you know, calling, I do a lot of Zooms with students and their families individually, and I'm happy to do all of that. I think it's a big decision, you know, and I want to supply as much information as possible. We have a thing called all roads days here, which are on Fridays in April, two of them will have the most of the music theater students where you literally spend the day on campus and you, you get to partake, sit in classes, talk to professors, have pizza at the end. You know, it's, it's kind of an all encompassing day. Audition days on campus will include performances at night. We schedule audition days for when we have shows running. We want students to have as wide...

[1:01:16] Victoria Bussert: So let me just back up. I don't believe in choosing schools based on reputation of the school. I believe the most important thing is who's going to be teaching you. So do I, am I thrilled about having a brand new training center? Thrilled. Yep. Could I teach in a 50 year old warehouse? Absolutely. It's a perk, but it's not what makes, it's not what makes building, not teaching anything. No. And a reputation of a school is another step away from that, you know, and as somebody who went to a school for grad school that had a huge reputation, it took me a while to understand that the name of the school is not it. It's how you are trained. And honestly, the industry knows that too. They know who is doing the training and the level you're being trained to.

And that's what makes the industry interested in bringing you on as a client or not. You know, as I point out to my students all the time, an agent or a manager only makes, their portion, their financial portion is if you book a job. So your readiness to be hireable is critical for them, you know, in terms of them being interested in representing you. Early in my career, I used to hear, well, your students are still a little green. And I was like, talk to me more about that. They'd be like, they're not, you know, they need about six months out in the real world to like really understand. And so I made it my mission to ungreen my students. And part of that, Charlie, here is that performances are just as important as classes are parallel tracks.

So starting from right from first year, you're auditioning for the entire season and you're able to be cast in it. We are bringing a minimum of 10 summer stock theaters to campus for our students to audition. We want you to have the opportunity to take what you're learning in classes and put it to use because you have to figure out what's going to work for you.

[1:03:10] Charlie Murphy: Yep. It's so well said. And it is the experience. I think I was surprised how much it was true entering the industry of like most agents and managers are not too interested in the ungreening of you. They're sort of like, that's not my job. Like they're like, they understand like, okay, it's your first edition. It's not like they're like mean, but like after a couple of additions, they're like, yeah, I'm not, go take a class then. Like, like it's not their job helping you.

[1:03:28] Victoria Bussert: Yeah. And you know, one of the huge advantages of working with these regional theaters is you're talking about four or five month runs. Yeah. You can't do that in academia. You can do maybe two weekends. We have the ability to, you know, I, I'm leaving next week to go do Sunday in the park with George at Idaho Shakespeare that will then move to Cleveland. I have three students. They will start on a contract June 17th and we end at the end of September. Where do you get that kind of experience to make a Broadway producer go, oh, they've already done eight shows a week. They understand what that is.

[1:04:10] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean the eight shows a week thing is so real. It's like, that's a word that we just say eight shows a week. I'm like, you, you don't get that experience in school. It's not possible. Two shows in a day. It's just, it's a different experience.

[1:04:20] Victoria Bussert: Well, that's why having these regional theater crossovers were so critical to me. Because I know as a professional director, the difference it makes.

[1:04:29] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, that's huge. Um, I love to talk about what else do you think about filling out a class, right? Are you conscious as you're looking at the sparking of the joy? Are you looking at, you know, gender balance? Are you looking at like stuff like height balance and size balance, racial diversity, geographical balance? How are you thinking as you're putting the jigsaw puzzle together about those other factors of identity that go beyond talent?

[1:04:48] Victoria Bussert: Well, you know, I'm sparked by all shapes, sizes, genders, everything. So to me, it has a natural progression. I've, I am always aware of sort of the pool of the entire program and knowing that I want to make sure that there is plenty of opportunity for everybody. But you know, it's, um, I'm more interested in the individual artists, this incoming, our incoming class happens to be, um, male heavy, which you know, in music theater is a rarity, unusual. And you know, height wise, we've got all the way up to like six foot five, you know, in body shape wise. Yeah. I feel like a lot of that takes care of itself, but I will say we're not trying to put anybody into categories. And it's important that artists feel like they can fully express who they are. That's really the goal over the four years is to grow in as many different ways as possible, not to conform.

[1:06:03] Charlie Murphy: Yep. Totally. Well said. I love that. I should have jotted this down as a question of, you know, I've always had the experience anytime I move apartments, that it's like this like wonderful experience for me. Like I get to rethink about how I live my life now. I'm like, how do I organize my room? How do I do things differently? I kind of just wonder if like, you know, as you look at an audition process that you've done now for 20, you're saying 27, we had 27 and off at 28 or whatever, what the right number is. But this specific college audition process, is there something you feel like now just getting to look at it from a different perspective or from a fresh perspective of the outside? Is there stuff that you feel like you've learned or are there things that you go, all right, now I think I might want to shift and adjust and change this as we move forward? Like what has that experience been?

[1:06:43] Victoria Bussert: Stepping into a new apartment as you, you know, my audition process really comes from my work professionally. So I will adjust as I see, because really right from the beginning, I want students to understand what that's going to feel like. Like how do you share yourself in a short amount of time? So for me, I would say having the flexibility of seeing that there's a lot of people that have the flexibility of seeing that there's something there, but...

[1:07:15] Victoria Bussert: There's something in the way, playing around a little bit with like, I am really interested in this person. Maybe I'll do a deep dive into what is online about them. I'll go look at performances that might be up there. I mean, that's a whole different area that we never had access to 15 years ago. So I would say to everybody, you want to curate what you have on yourself online, because that's all available material for us.

[1:07:46] Victoria Bussert: And chatting. I mean, I do love talking to students on Zoom and seeing what their questions are and seeing if I'm the right fit, if they think I'm the right fit for them. Maybe worth noting, you are, I think, very interested in the personalized and sometimes go above and beyond the personalized experience unique to each individual student you're auditioning and that you'll ultimately be accepting, but you're not normally a 30-minute audition. Some schools do that where there's like a long interview in the room. You're not doing a 10, 15-minute interview likely in the room. You're moving pretty quickly. So they've got to do that sharing in a relatively condensed period of time, and then it may extend beyond the audition room after that.

[1:08:33] Victoria Bussert: Absolutely. I think it's very rare that I don't have extended time with accepted students who are interested in coming to Oberlin. Yes, but not necessarily in that first look. Not in the room. No, no, no. Because that's, I want to see as many people as possible. I'm used to the professional world where, hey, you lose the studio to the belly dancing class at six. So to me—

[1:08:54] Charlie Murphy: The Oberlin belly dancers are coming in to take the studio. I get it.

[1:08:57] Victoria Bussert: Oh, they do. Yeah. So it's like, no, in terms of, I think I'm a good auditioner. I think that, again, having worked as a casting director really helped me hone my eye. And you mentioned, I think, are there some changes it seems like from a sort of audition perspective of different places that you're going than you've gone in previous years? And just in terms of what that might mean, you mentioned the two online days. It seems like you're participating in, you mentioned, some of those live pre-screens kind of—

[1:09:28] Victoria Bussert: Live pre-screens. I'm not a big fan of live pre-screens. I teach a lot of masterclasses, which is, I love that because I feel like it's another way for the students to audition me and my energy. I tend to work with a lot of energy. And I tend to really, I work more like an athletic coach. I'm the one who's going to be like, come on, we can do this. I'm not going to be the, oh, honey. And that's just not going to be my vibe. And I think you have to find the vibe that works best for you.

[1:10:04] Charlie Murphy: It's so well said. One of the things I underlined that resources question just because it's something we've been talking about with a lot of schools post UArts and sort of the UArts world of it all and what school's financial stability looks like. How should families feel about Oberlin's financial stability and just what that means in terms of their resources and their assuredness that the school will still be around three years from now, all those kinds of things?

[1:10:27] Victoria Bussert: It's such an important question, Charlie. So I'll answer it very succinctly. Oberlin has a $1.4 billion endowment. So financially, they're in, they're on very solid ground.

[1:10:39] Charlie Murphy: You're saying a billion is a lot of money is what you're saying?

[1:10:44] Victoria Bussert: You know, I don't know. We understand the billion. Yeah. And for a small school with that sort of endowment, it provides a level of security. It also allowed them to invest in this program at an incredibly high level. They would not have made this investment, you know, if they did not believe in this art form. I mean, I keep bringing up Juilliard, but I do think it's interesting in the top music conservatories in the world. One of the things that's lacking is music theater programs. It's our American art form. This is our art form. We have this one.

[1:11:20] Charlie Murphy: Come on. I know.

[1:11:22] Victoria Bussert: But Charlie, for so many years, it's been considered kind of like the secondary child and not so much. And Oberlin said, we're either going to do this world class or we're not going to do it at all.

[1:11:36] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. I love to talk about, you know, as you look at the sort of future, you know, especially this is year one. But, you know, as you look at that investment and you look at the business, you mentioned so much of the program and your training is like focus on what the business is going to be like. How does that training look like in 2035 or, you know, even 2030? Like what are the things that we sort of see? Hey, here's where I think the future of theater and future musical theater is going to be in terms of how that training might adjust and be different than it was 20 years ago.

[1:12:05] Victoria Bussert: You can't think 20 years out, just like you can't think you can't teach today what you were teaching 20 years ago. The point is the faculty must stay current. You know, you must, that has to be part of your constant retraining is what is the industry doing? 10 years ago, nobody was teaching hip hop, you know, and then came along Hamilton and, you know, we were all teaching point. So the Christines and Phantom could get through the point call, you know? So it is about constantly evolving. What is the skillset? We don't sing the same way today that we sang in the 1940s. You know, do we want to have a golden age toolbox? Do we want to understand what that is? Sure. But let's, let's be also really practical and look on Broadway, look at the national tours.

What is the predominant style of singing? Yes. It all comes from healthy singing. Yes. There's always a health basis for all of these skills, but you can't just sit in that. Okay. We're only going to work on, you know pre 1960 material because your students won't work. And if your goal is your students to work upon graduation, then it is your job to stay up to date in terms of, well, what are those requirements? We're going to be teaching an entire semester of partnering. We're not just talking about partnering in the classical sense. We're talking about outsiders fight partnering, Moulin Rouge partnering, same sex partnering. So partnering is now a much broader definition than it was before. That's on us. And that is why hiring a faculty that loves this art form so deeply that that doesn't seem like a job. That seems like an honor.

[1:14:10] Charlie Murphy: Not so well said. That's a great answer. Okay. Last question. We always wrap up with advice for parents. So we'll just let this sort of, in all the parents you've interacted with in all the years of this process, sort of many of our listeners are parents thinking about how do I support my child through this process? What advice do we have for the parents out there going, my child's going to the arts. They're doing this process. I'm not sure whether it's Oberlin, whether it's, you know, where they're going to go to school, what they're going to do with their lives. Like what advice do we sort of have for parents as they're guiding their children through this process?

[1:14:43] Victoria Bussert: I literally met with a mom who is a top neurosurgeon and she said, I have no idea what my daughter wants to do this. I don't know. You know, and I said, listen, your job as a parent is to be the soft landing. You know, you're the support system. Your child is going to be out there, you know, making themselves available in a way that can seem scary and exciting. And you're the person who after the audition says, good for you. You did the audition. You don't have to be their acting coach. It's better if you're not. You are the support system that because how many auditions are all artists going to go through in their lifetimes? And the vast majority, you're not going to get, you know, this is where I'm like my Kobe Bryant's kind of comes in.

It's like you pick yourself up and you keep going. And the parent is the one going good for you, or let's go get some ice cream. You know, it's like there, the parent helps provide the perspective of life outside of this, but they're not responsible for, well, you should have done this, or I'll bet they didn't like that. That's not, that isn't the helpful thing for the parent.

[1:16:13] Victoria Bussert: So I love it when parents ask questions and you know, one of the things that when I interacted with his mom, she was telling me about how, um, how suturing is taught today and how, to me, it was like, this is exactly what you should be looking at when you're talking to faculty, because she was talking about, you know, it's terrible if you're not actually suturing something, you know, when you're just watching a video on suturing and I'm like, yeah, that's what we do too. It's not, you gotta get in there and do it. You gotta take the dance classes. You gotta have the practical experience. Um, so to me, it comes back to, for the parents, do you have a comfort level with the faculty? Um, and I think you should be able to talk to other parents.

You know, we will have interaction with parents at on-campus events and I think that's really important. I have been blessed with some of the most extraordinary parents in terms of my students who I'm still dear, dear friends with and, um, I feel very lucky to have interacted with the parents, but I do feel like that is a two-way street and you need to interact with the parents. It's, I, I can't imagine, you know, I think in my entire career, I've had one parent whose child was choosing between pre-med or musical theater and the parent was like, do musical theater. And I'm like, huh, I could do the only parent. That is not an actor parent. I'd be like, you're a human.

[1:17:47] Charlie Murphy: Uh, no, that's amazing. I love that answer of, of, you know, we also talk so often on the podcast about sort of process over product, often in the perspective of the sports world too. There's so much sort of overlap of like the, what should be rewarded is the process. You, you showed up, like even just saying you showed up to the audition. That was great. Or a student saying, you know what I've discovered, this isn't for me. Well, that's true too. Bravo. Good for you.

[1:18:17] Victoria Bussert: Here's the one thing I would avoid. I would avoid, I think the private Facebook, uh, music theater parent groups can be really detrimental because they're not, they're not a full perspective. So I do think if questions come up in those groups, people should reach out directly to the faculty in question or we, you know, get outside that bubble.

[1:18:43] Charlie Murphy: Yes. Like so many things online. It's like the go touch grass of it all of like, I mean, I think so many of those groups are so well-intentioned and so the parents are there to help. But when you experience something through an online funnel, you're getting a, uh, whatever it's called the funhouse mirror image. You're not, you're not getting the real perspective because who are the people who are posting the super posters? I'm like, are they actually the most informed or they're just the most interested in, you know, that's a whole other five hour conversation. So we've done like 12 different podcasts. Um, if people want more Oberlin information, where would you want to send them? Do you want like websites, social media? What's the best way to get there?

[1:19:10] Victoria Bussert: Yeah. So you can go right to the Oberlin music theater website. Um, my email is just vbussard at Oberlin.edu. Um, absolutely. Uh, be following along. We also have, we have a lot of Instagram sites. So if you go to Oberlin music theater, which is, uh, O M T, um, which is different from the Oberlin music theater associate musical theater association, which is a student run music theater group on campus. Um, and also of course, every individual class has started their own Instagram account. So there is, there are many ways to interact, but I would say the Oberlin music theater site, which is a, it's a red circle with O M T in it is a really good way to stay up to date on what's going on in the program.

[1:20:04] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Vicki, thank you so much for the time.

[1:20:06] Victoria Bussert: Oh, my pleasure, Charlie. Thank you for asking me. I'm so happy to do this.

[1:20:16] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes, yes. Love that conversation with Vicki. Truly mortified that I didn't read her education at the beginning of her bio. What a flub on my part, a little bit of senioritis, I guess, as we head into summer break, but I'm embarrassed, Mia Gulpa. Uh, last week I did a beautiful, true singular takeaway, uh, talking about all the different paths to success in the industry. And then I said, maybe I'll do more of that.

[1:20:43] Charlie Murphy: We've talked about this one a bunch in different episodes, including bits and bits of conversation specific to Oberlin, actually, in some of those episodes. But I just want to bring back this stocks analogy that we've made so many times in relationship to Vicki and Oberlin. I often talk about that idea just in general with schools of investing in a stock is like investing in a program you're attending or I guess that a program is like investing in a stock, especially relevant, I think, when it comes to newer versus those more established programs in this analogy, right? That newer programs like stocks, newer stocks often have more risk and volatility, but potentially have a lot of upside and a lot of growth potential, right?

If you catch a new program at the right time, or in the stock analogy, it's like catching that at a good price, right? You can ride the wave of its popularity, and that carries you forward into the career, right? And of course, the flip side of that too, where a stock starts off well, but then, you know, falls down like the tragedy of UArts, that you have that negative side of things too, right? And the benefits then of also like really established programs can mean a lot of security. I don't know why I always use like Apple stock for somehow, that's the one that I think of as like, that's really secure. But you can, those stock people out there can tell me if it's actually the right analogy there in the stock of it all.

But the idea of like, Apple's not going to go way up or way down, because it's been around for a while. It's generally gone up. It's generally, we know it's going to do pretty well, if that analogy is true. But basically, that idea of going a really established program, you know, it's got years, you know, it's not likely to take a huge tumble or hugely soar up from where it is, because you know what it is, right? And I say all that in the Oberlin conversation, just to say, as I'm sure you can tell from this episode, and in general, MGCA's relationship with Vicki for over a decade now, we are obviously big fans of her. I mean, she was one of the very first teachers to do masterclasses and private auditions with us.

And we have been mutual fans, I think, for a long time. So just a bit of full disclosure bias that when I'm talking about Vicki and Oberlin, that I'm a big fan, right? And I think you'll hear from what I say in the episode, I do not think in my professional opinion, that a bet on Vicki and a bet on Oberlin is the same as a bet on any new program starting out, right? I think it's a much better bet. You're going to hear that, right? I do think it's much closer to the idea of like, CEO of a big established company is overseeing a merger of a new company that has established resources, or I don't know, whatever the right stock analogy, I don't actually know stocks, I'm just sort of making that as a general analogy.

But the idea of going, that's probably a pretty good bet, right? But that said, there is still some level of inherent risk, anytime you're talking about a newer program, no matter how certain you are of the upside, which again, I think there's a lot of upside, right? If you're going in with your eyes wide open, you just want to know what you're signing up for. Oberlin, of course, has a fantastic reputation in the music world, but it does not have an established reputation in the musical theater world. That program didn't exist until now. And while Vicki's reputation and track record is excellent, that doesn't necessarily give you 100% guarantee that all of the success that she manifested at VW is going to replicate itself.

Again, I think it's a good bet, but just to be fair in the way you should be thinking about this as listeners, I want to make sure you're going in with all of the information. And I'll say the stock analogy, part of the reason I bring it up, it's particularly true in those first few years of the new program from a volatility perspective, right? Vicki was really candid about the fact that there may not be the same kind of class cohesion for some of those transfer students, given that she didn't hand select all of them the way she might for all of the incoming classes at a new program moving forward, right? And also the idea that they haven't spent four full years together, it is a different experience than you're going to have for people who have spent four full years together, right?

And the same is true when you talk about, you know, showcasing perspective, which, you know, it might be true at any newer school, there's more volatility than you're going to experience at a Carnegie Mellon showcase when you talk about a new program. Now, you could make the argument that those first few classes will get even more attention with all the eyeballs on them, curious as to the excitement of what Oberlin could be. I won't disagree with that opinion, but it is definitely different than a more established program. And to be honest, the whole industry isn't glued to the college world the way we all are, right? In terms of like updates of what's going on, right? It often takes a few years for them to recognize what a good new program is.

So for the few years on the resume, there may be some work of establishing that reputation when it comes to stuff like casting directors and directors for people who know personally, or who aren't super into the college landscape. Again, none of that is to detract from the excitement about Oberlin, which I have a lot of personally, I think you can feel some of my excitement. I just want to make sure that I'm clear in like, what you're investing your hard earned money and your four years of life into when you talk about this particular stock, right? You want to have a sense of the upsides, and also the potential downsides involved in what is a newer program, even if you might look at this program differently than most brand new programs starting from scratch.

To that point, have you all been waiting for my take on the Josh Grisetti TikTok at all? Like four different people sent it to me immediately within the first like 30 minutes of that thing going up. But I knew I had this episode coming up where we mentioned it. So I've been saving my take, which is not to say actually that I have any particular hot takes there, but give you my general thoughts. I mean, I think Josh is generally a really smart thinker in this space. And I also do recognize that he's being a bit, I'll call it algorithmic. He's being a bit algorithmic with the way he plays with a level of like controversy in the take. I do think generally, like I try to give all takes with a grain of salt, which is not good for the algorithm.

You know, I know it's like the more controversial, the better. But I just, Josh had a really good point in the idea of the expanding number of BFAs means that it does potentially change the nature of what a BFA is exactly, or what it means. You know, can you really say it is pre-professional training if there aren't enough jobs for all the graduates to get, right? You know, Vicki talked about it. There were 200 showcases now, and there used to be 20 however many years ago. I forget what number exactly she used, right? Does that change the nature of exactly what a showcase is? Sure. I think it does, right? And I think it's fair to point out, hey, there is a difference here. There's a quantitative and then therefore qualitative difference here in both of those cases when you the number of programs and programs that showcase.

But I think our regular listeners will not be surprised that I don't think a measure of success BFA program is necessarily in getting students employed as professional actors. I do think that that should be the program stated goals. I think they should hold themselves accountable to those standards that their actors are employable when graduating. I think that's really important. But I also just think when I look at it holistically, when I look at all of our students, many of whom have had really successful careers in this industry, and many of whom have had hugely successful careers in other industries, I'm just such a big believer that a BFA in 2025 is just such fabulous life training that I'm like generally a fan of it regardless of if that person ends up being a professional performer for their whole life.

So I guess that's like my version of a hot take is that like just generally right about the concept, but it actually doesn't bother me that some students' paths might involve a BFA and then another direction in life, right? I've just seen too many versions of happy successful people who don't ultimately end up in the arts or only in the arts, but are glad that their artistic training was part of their professional life and really benefited from that BFA. Which I guess to turn the little bit it parlays me a bit into that conversation about rigor that he brought up. I just want to underline that word rigor and just say how much I love it. Rigor, it's a great word, right? It's a word that was really popular when I was going to school and I was auditioning for school, and I think for a period schools kind of shied away from it for sounding like they were gonna be too hard on their students, right?

There was that cliched idea of like a drama school being too hard on their students and it's gonna cause a breakdown, you know, from like the movie Fame or whatever, right? Which of course nobody on the podcast isn't gonna support a program being too hard or not taking care of their students. But like so many things in life, finding that balance of effort and ease is essential. I love all the innovations in the wellness space and you've heard a lot of them talked about on the podcast and I think it's really helpful for us to understand how essential wellness is to the success of a performer, but we all know that can't stand in for the hard work and effort needed to be successful in this industry.

And really in any industry that is as competitive as this industry is, it's gonna take hard work. We talk about it with athletics and certainly it's true in the artistic world. You have to be somebody who loves the work and is able to do it in a healthy, sustainable way, but you just can't replace the hard work and how important it is to find that rigor, right? And I think more and more of our students in 2025 now recognize that and are once again really looking for a school that talks about rigor or at least talks about it in some way and pushing them to be their best self. I just don't think it has to be one or the other. I don't think it's about making a choice between rigor and wellness, right?

You can even make the argument that self-care is a version of rigor in the discipline of what it is to take care of your instrument and prioritizing that for yourself. But I'll just say in general, I'm definitely a fan of programs who will talk about rigor if they're trying to turn out industry-ready professionals since I do think that is what it takes to succeed in this industry on top of all the other things like the talent and the luck and all the other things you need to succeed. You need to be able to work hard and you need to want to work hard.

[1:30:20] Charlie Murphy: Okay, just a few more quick hitters and then we're gonna wrap this season. I just wanted to say in general, that transfer conversation, I thought it was really interesting. I was excited that conversation because the unique situation Oberlin was in, but I think a bit atypical, right? Not only in the idea of the transfer portal and taking all those students at once, that's certainly atypical, but even in that idea Vicki was talking about really of comparable credits, that can be a part of schools processes for sure and it can happen, but I just want to be clear that you shouldn't expect that this is typical and that it's realistic that you would come in as a junior at a competitive BFA program short of having some kind of pre-existing relationship with the program head or some kind of extenuating circumstance that happened like in the UART situation, right?

That's not to say again where there aren't instances where it happens, it does happen, but it's just not standard or expected across BFA schools the way that it would be across athletic departments with the transfer portal and I can't believe I didn't do any sports metaphors in these takeaways given that Vicki was so game for the sports metaphors. I'm off my game people, I'm off my game, but my last takeaway that I do want to do, it's just that I really loved Vicki's answer on how education is evolving and going. You know, she had a version of like, nobody knows, you're kind of like, that's a stupid question because nobody knows. I'm like, I kind of agree, maybe it was a stupid question, right?

But her basic, you got to stay current, that's what's important is that you got to keep your ear to the ground and you got to stay current. I just think it's like so honest and refreshing and like generally comforting to me when I hear someone be able to articulate that and say a version of, I don't know, right? You'll often hear faculty members, Q&As, talk about stuff like the future and stuff like AI as if they know what that's gonna mean for the future of theater or the future of work in general and my feeling always is like, we really don't, right? If I could play back for you some of the stuff my professors talked about and how sure they were when they talk about theater and technology and how they integrate together somehow the future of theater, some of which actually turned out to be totally true, some of which turned out to be completely wrong, and then somewhere in between in kind of unpredictable ways.

Maybe it sort of happens sometimes when you talk about stuff like these like live capture video streams that you sometimes see in the middle of the shows, but these have not become like the thing that always happens in the middle of a Broadway musical. But the short answer is nobody knows and you can't train for 10 years in the future. You have to train for the now and also be open and flexible to it when changes come. So I really like that answer a lot. I also liked this a lot and it comes to an end here as we wrap this episode of season four of Mapping College Audition produced by Matt Cordier and Kelly Prendergrast with social work by Jordan Rice. Our theme song is written and performed by Will Reynolds along with the talented and beautiful Elizabeth Sandley.

You know you can follow us at Mapping the College Audition on Instagram and follow MTCA on all social media platforms. You can write us ratings and reviews wherever you find your podcasts and you can check us out at mtca.com for all you need with your individual college prep needs, whatever those are. Also, if you want to send us thoughts and suggestions for season five or beyond, just a rating and review or social media comment, feel free to write us at mailbag at Mapping the College Audition dot com. That's mailbag at Mapping the College Audition dot com with thoughts, questions, things you'd want us to on the show or just general fan mail. To my young artists out there mapping their journeys, please trust that you are enough for the right program exactly as you are right now. Now keep striving with rigor. We'll catch you next season.