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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got Betsy and Stella Samuel on the pod for our newer listeners. In these artist exploration episodes, we aim to explore the paths of success that artists have forged and are still forging and tease out how their theatrical training has helped them to blaze that trail. And this particular kind of episode is the end of a runner that has now spanned many months because of our podcast break over the summer. I recorded this last May, but I do like to kind of spread out the different kinds of episodes you get.

So generally, I'm gonna try to mix up different kinds of schools in the College Deep Dive episodes, and then I'm gonna try to showcase different kinds of artists in the artist episodes. So this is the end of our Alumni Family Runner series, where we had two parents on together, we had two parents and their kid, and now here, a mom-daughter combo. And of course, we must recognize in these three episodes, you know, we're trying to show off a couple of different kinds of experiences. You know, we're focusing on parental communication without a child. We're focusing specifically on a gap year situation in one of them, and now what is probably the most common pivotal parent-student relationship in the mom-daughter combo of it all.

But of course, just recognizing there are so many different combinations we could have done. We did a runner of three, we could have done a runner of a hundred, right? And we will continue, hopefully, to do different versions of this. If you like this, of course, let us know, right? But like with the showcasing showcases, it really could be a whole season of podcasts just showing all the different possibilities and talking about it, right? You know, what it's like as a single parent would be interesting. Focusing on a dadager, we didn't have any real true dadagers on from this one. You know, how it can be different with a mom-son combo, which I think can often be different, right? And then, of course, playing with all the different gender roles across the spectrum.

We had two moms, two dads, different gender identities for the parents and children, right? And I will also just say, it's how I always feel anytime I'm like, what about this, what about this, right? The trickiness of trying to show different experiences is that in showing one instance of a gap year student or one instance of a homeschool parent or one instance of a parent, you know, parenting neurodivergent kids like we've done on the pod before, we're really only showing one instance of it, one example of that. That's just one experience that that family had, right? So I do think it can be helpful and that's why I'm doing it, but certainly I wouldn't want any of you to be like, well, that's how it is for every gap year student or that's how it is for every neurodivergent student or whatever, right?

Or for every mom-son combo or whatever it is, right? But I know a lot of you know that intuitively. I just think it's worth saying, since I fundamentally believe that there's a ton of wisdom in all of these been there, done that families, which of course is why I love having them on the show, but also that every experience should be taken with a grain of salt and that their expertise is biased by their own singular experience. You know, it's something I've talked about a lot, but I certainly felt that way when I started coaching 20 years ago. At first, my own experience was very biased by my specific school and my specific experience and it took a decent amount of time and really a lot of listening to all of our student experiences before I felt like I really gained the expertise of so many different experiences and the generated wisdom that comes from that.

So that's all that to say is listen to this interview, listen to this series, I think it's fantastic. Listen to all the past students and parents that we've had, all the past artists, guests, right? Try to take it all in and just use what is useful to you. But then of course, follow your own instincts as well, because none of them, none of the people you've heard on this podcast and almost 300 episodes at this point, none of them are going to have an experience that is exactly like yours will be. Okay, man, I really just felt like I was trying to do an intro and I just did takeaway. It's a takeaway before the episode. I feel like I'm doing that more and more. I'm going to try not to do that because I of course have many long takeaways coming after as well. And this is a long interview. So I'll say let's get to it. Happy November to all of you. I really hope you enjoy this interview with Betsy and Stella Samuel.

[4:11] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to have Stella and Betsy Samuel. Stella has a BA from Brandeis and an MSW in social work from NYU. She's a licensed psychotherapist specializing in work with adolescents and college mental health, among some other specialties, some pretty apropos topics that we're going to cover today. And most relevantly here, mother to the wonderful Betsy Samuel, who is attending Ithaca for acting. Samuel's welcome on the pod. How are you feeling today?

[4:46] Stella Samuel: Good. I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having us.

[4:46] Charlie Murphy: Good. I challenged you in the pre-show to do everything in harmony and that was pretty good. You did your first test you've passed on the good. That was very good. Okay. I mentioned also, you know, we're in our little mini series of alumni student pods where we're doing some parent-student combinations. We've had two parents on together. We've had a mom, dad, and daughter combination, but this is like my very favorite of all, a mother-daughter combo. So I'm really excited to chat through your process, get your dynamic. You guys not only are a wonderful mother-daughter duo, but also I think it is our most frequent dynamic of a parent-student that gets to know each other, especially through this process.

So I'm excited to chat about that. Can we just start off by going back a little bit? If you remember when you first met MTCA, really when you started your process, it could be with the initial consult or if you felt like you started earlier, sort of where were you both individually in terms of like your knowledge of like what the process was? Like, were you someone who like, I watched friends go through it. I know what I'm doing. Or were you in that camp of going, I feel completely alone and overwhelmed? I'd love to hear from kind of both of you individually. Where were you? We'll start off with you, Betsy, and then we'll go to Stella.

[5:52] Betsy Samuel: I feel like it was kind of, I didn't really have friends who had gone through the process before me. And so I knew a little bit. I knew sort of like the programs to sort of look at, but I didn't know a ton of the specifics. And so that's where MTCA came in to really help me understand what am I actually doing?

[6:08] Charlie Murphy: And where were you at Stella with it? Do you feel like, had you talked to moms? Were you finding stuff online? Where were you in the process of it?

[6:17] Stella Samuel: No, I was out in some other world of, you know, I have an older daughter who went through the college process, but not through this kind of situation. Very sort of typical, you know, college education, you know, process or application process. So this was all brand new. And I kind of dove in, if you will, to getting information as much as possible. And we kind of did it together a little bit. We kind of played off of each other a little bit of like, I found this, I found that.

[6:48] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I love that. And I'm excited to have you share some of it. But so let's start with that, because I want to talk about kind of the plan that you made to divvy things up. So you said that we worked off each other. So I want to hear about some of those specifics. And then we'll also talk about a little bit, like how did that change over the course of the process? But what was your initial plan in terms of like, let's call it like the divvying it up, if you want to think of it with the buckets, who's organizing, you know, certainly let's imagine a world where Betsy's leading the artistic side of things. But in terms of the organizational and the strategic and the planning and the school list research, you know, how did you sort of do the divvying up of communication versus research versus organization? How did that all work in your family?

[7:26] Stella Samuel: We're looking at each other to get to that piece of this. I think we have a pretty strong relationship to begin with, I think, you know, she's a therapist child. So we talk.

[7:42] Betsy Samuel: Yeah, we talk a lot.

[7:42] Stella Samuel: Surely attached, as I say. Yes, exactly. But I think what happened was it was more of a sort of a conversation over time, I think. Yeah. And talking about what she wanted. And earlier on, again, because, you know, kind of already had someone go to college, so new sort of timing of how to have those conversations a little bit. And I think, you know, Betsy, Betsy did drive most of our discussions in terms of what she wanted and sort of that, sort of what I'm looking for, I believe.

[8:13] Betsy Samuel: I mean, yeah, that's my impression of it.

[8:18] Stella Samuel: Yeah, definitely. You let me be like, okay, this is my process. And reminded me of that. It was my process. But also like, not in a bad way.

[8:23] Betsy Samuel: No, no, no. In like a, in like a this is your thing. You get to do this. You're the one actually.

[8:29] Charlie Murphy: Were you asking mom for help at times? Are you saying like, hey, I'm looking at this thing. Can you help organize this anything? Or was it mostly you're even doing the spreadsheet yourself, Betsy?

[8:44] Betsy Samuel: It was kind of a lot with the spreadsheets. It was really like, okay, oh, my God, we have so many.

[8:53] Stella Samuel: Yeah, like, here's our list. Let's split up the research so that like, it's not because it was like both of us would kind of like do a bunch of research get kind of overwhelmed with like the amount of information.

[9:02] Betsy Samuel: Yeah. And so we figured out a system of like, splitting it up. I honestly have no idea which one of us found MTCA, to be honest with you.

[9:12] Stella Samuel: Like in thinking back, I know. Isn't that exciting? But like, I do think it was you, Stella. For me, looking up the initial content, at least our notes in the initial consult said something about you.

[9:22] Betsy Samuel: Forgetting that. It's been a long process.

[9:24] Stella Samuel: But I do think, I do think it was kind of like, I saw something, she saw something.

[9:29] Betsy Samuel: Yeah.

[9:30] Stella Samuel: Probably I will, if I really searched back, it probably was through the Facebook group MT Parents that I probably found that. I mean, to be honest, I think that's kind of where it came from.

[9:42] Betsy Samuel: And I do remember being enthusiastic. Like I found something and I would go to Betsy and say, hey, well, I just learned this. What do you think?

[9:49] Stella Samuel: And so I think that's kind of how we built things.

[9:53] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Other than the greatest research of all, which was finding MTCA. Excellent job, Stella. But let's talk a little bit about that school's research, because I think what you just said is something so many parents and students, especially I'd say like of our juniors right now, maybe even our juniors a couple of months ago, March, April, May, as they're kind of looking, really saying, oh gosh, I'm becoming a senior. I'm sort of landing on my list. Even like, what does it mean to you to research a school? You know, it's something that we, with the podcast, we set out to try to be like, we make this a little easier on you of going, I want you to hear directly from this, this faculty and you'll get a little bit of a 45 minute hour long encapsulation.

That certainly isn't all the research that you need necessarily, nor is it the, you know, do we have every single school there? I guess what I'm interested in is that the different stages of the process, now that you've gone through it, what do you feel like was helpful research to you? What do you feel like, like when you're saying I did this school, I did this school, like, what are you looking up? Are you looking up stats? Are you looking up, how are you doing your school this research and what was helpful to you?

[10:47] Betsy Samuel: Oh yeah. I, this was actually something I kind of had trouble with of like, I got to a point where I kind of was like looking at the websites of the schools and I was like, okay, great. I'm taking intro or like scene study one, but like, what does that mean? What does that mean?

[11:03] Stella Samuel: Yeah, exactly.

[11:03] Betsy Samuel: Yeah. And so we kind of, I remember I still have it on my computer of like, I remember creating, I think this was a Leo thing of like the five categories of like, yeah. And so we kind of started to look through like finding instead of just like looking up the school and being like, okay, what information can I find? Like focusing it on the different like categories, which obviously changed a whole lot throughout the year.

[11:36] Stella Samuel: Yeah. I also, I do think it was, it was sort of the connection and, and also the, and Betsy started with MTCA pretty, I'm not probably early on, but, but summer before junior year.

[11:50] Betsy Samuel: Yeah.

[11:50] Stella Samuel: So we were connected to some of her coaches and had some conversations and Leo was fantastic in sort of guiding a little bit of, of sort of that discussion and just thinking about, I, I concur, like, you know, that five categories kind of thing of, of figuring out what is important to Betsy in looking at these things. And I do remember like looking at websites, scrolling over lots of time, lots of research, lots of time, lots of sort of figuring out information from different sources to put in to probably the third, you know, with many iterations of the spreadsheet of the spreadsheet, many with different titles and all of that and colors and, you know, all of that. But, but I do think that it was sort of a combination and then obviously, you know, connection with Amy Breslow, you know, in terms of really understanding a bit more of sort of the tiers of schools and, and recognizing, you know, what are possibilities here?

[12:52] Charlie Murphy: I love that. And I think it's, you know, if you can have the benefit of hindsight of like working smarter, not harder, I do think there are some people who will spend a lot of time doing like granular detail research on schools where you go, that's not really what you need to be doing at this point. Like, I really liked that idea of what we do at the very end of the process and making a scorecard as you like make your decision. You kind of do a version of that at the beginning, though it doesn't have to be final, but, but to be like, I got to make a

[13:16] Betsy Samuel: The decision of is it on the list or not? And that's actually a pretty simple decision versus then you got to go super deep on pre-screen requirements and scholarships and all this detail. But you go, sometimes you do that level of detail. And you go, but I never even ended up applying to the school. I wasn't even interested in this school. And I did all this like data entry. And it feels like it can be a bit of a waste of time. It makes you feel like you're doing something more than maybe you're actually doing something. I will say that spreadsheet still came in handy when we were going through the spreadsheet for later on. And also, you know, sort of looking at the options and figuring out, you know, the schools and what was of interest, you know, and what it did and what changed.

It was really helpful. Helps you kind of even map your own journey of what was important to me junior year and then a year later going through this. We'll talk about that with the shift from MT to acting. I'm gonna have to preview a little bit of some of this. But give me just from an overall perspective. Do you have any, as you thought about doing this interview? Did you have any big wins for yourself? So any big stuff that you go, hey, if I did this process again, I would absolutely repeat this and any big stuff that you go, you know, if I did this again, I'd do this differently. So any big wins or big losses from just going through and looking back at the process for really for both of you?

[14:21] Stella Samuel: Yeah, I feel like I did a good job of and you helped me with it. This was really like, you helped me like focus this. I started with the coaching in dance first, because I knew that like, I'm not the strongest of dancers. And that was like something that I was like, more worried about. And so I, like fall of junior year started doing consistently coaching with my dance coach, Daniel. Okay. Yeah, it was great. Um, but I kind of started out with what I felt least confident in so that then I could, um, once I got around to filming the pre-screen, I felt a lot better about it. And just noting that's fall of junior year meaning so it's almost two years before you're gonna do some of these auditions. Yeah, yeah. You're starting with this. Yep. I was working. I was coaching for a long time. Yeah, I love that. That was kind of like the main thing that I did with MTCA was really the coaching.

[15:20] Betsy Samuel: Yeah. And so you felt really confident was pretty good. I love that. Any, any things that you go if I look back, I do it differently.

[15:23] Stella Samuel: I feel like, okay, this is kind of like a mindset thing. But like, I did sort of get into this is like later in the actual auditions. And like, especially waiting for results. I feel like I kind of got into like a trying to make schools something that they're not like, like trying to see things that aren't there. So like, I would have a good audition with this school. And then I would like get really invested in it and be like, Oh, well, this is the place for me. When like, I really, maybe I was like trying to make things there that weren't there.

[15:53] Betsy Samuel: Trying to make it something that it wasn't.

[15:56] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, well, and I want to get Stella in here. But what do you think that was about? What? What made you put it on a pedestal? Or what made you make it something that it was not?

[16:05] Stella Samuel: I think it also, um, oh, I was I was seeing something that somebody else had done a few days ago that I was like, Oh, I should have done that of like somebody like printed out. I think she was an MTCA person actually, like printed out the curriculums of the schools and like blacked out the names to really compare them without the like title. I feel like I kind of was looking at the title of some of these schools and being like, well, it's this school. So like, this must be good. This must be good. This must be what I want.

[16:34] Betsy Samuel: I also think potentially not to add in, but I'll add in a little bit. Like there was also like a requirement on one of our we're from Los Angeles, right? We don't live close to New York, or a lot of the schools are on the East Coast. And so it was like, is this a direct flight? Is this easy to get to? Is this as part of it too, which might have been a factor, you know, early on, like, you know, sort of focusing you in narrowing you and and then maybe that wasn't necessarily as much it was what's the best fit kind of thing.

[17:02] Charlie Murphy: But you can be more artistic. What about you from a large scale takeaways? Was there any big stuff that you've thought about? Hey, this was a big win. I love that we did this or anything that you say, if I did this again, now for a third time for the college process, doing the musical theater process again, anything you think you go, I would do this differently.

[17:17] Betsy Samuel: Well, first of all, I would absolutely, I mean, not to not to, you know, bow down too much to MTCA. But there's no way I could have done this without.

[17:26] Stella Samuel: Yeah, like you bow down away. We're not, we're not afraid of it.

[17:31] Betsy Samuel: There's no way. I'm, I'm not. I'm, I, you know, we joked about harmonizing, not an art, not an artist in that way. And, and so this is really foreign to me in the beginning. And I have to say, the support was really helpful from all different angles, you know, and I think so. So in essence, like, it's recognizing it, what do you need, and participating in that way.

[17:57] Stella Samuel: And you're speaking when you say all different angles, you mean artistic coaching, but then also like, for you as a coach to have

[18:02] Betsy Samuel: yeah, like, you know, having a coordinator person just to talk to if there was an issue. You know, having a college person, because while I had done the college process before, never in this way. So it was just kind of, you know, as a parent, it's really helpful. The other piece, actually, I think that was really helpful is making connections because Betsy didn't come from, you know, performing arts high school, right. And she came from a humanities background, and, you know, very sort of more academically driven, if you will, you know, high school. And, and so for me, no one else in her class was ever applying, I think, actually, the school probably has, like, maybe like one or two people who had done it before me, and not in a very long time.

And so nobody understood, really, that in our current in our sort of current orbit, and I kind of felt like I was kept on having to, like, sort of explain it, explain why it was so stressful at times what was going on. And I think that making connections with other parents who were going through the same thing was really helpful and very crucial to that experience.

[19:12] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I love it. Anything you do differently, if you could could do it again?

[19:16] Betsy Samuel: This is kind of a silly thing. But which I'm not sure I could have done it differently. Honestly, Betsy participated in the faculty master class week, you know, the summer program. And that last session with the parents and the alums, I was exhausted and done and couldn't take in any of the information. So I wish I could revisit that a little bit, because there's so many key moments or, or advice or, or just nuggets, you know, that you want to pick up on. And I think, for me, I think, you know, maybe being a tiny bit more present in that moment would have been a little helpful for me.

[19:56] Stella Samuel: Correct, tough to be constantly present. There are times you're kind of in check.

[19:59] Betsy Samuel: Yeah, no, no, no. I'm not gonna beat myself up over it. But at the same time, I think there were things that like, you know, that were said that kind of resonated with me later. But I think it was, it's, it's also keeping in mind, this is like great, like my own advice to myself, is keeping in mind, this is their process.

[20:20] Stella Samuel: Yeah, not your process.

[20:22] Betsy Samuel: Yeah, their process. Yeah. And doesn't mean you can't be supportive and available. And, you know, in their kind of thing. But it's not my process. So like, I might want to school on a list, or I might want to, you know, whatever it might be. And that might not work.

[20:42] Charlie Murphy: I will have you know, that from some of that feedback, and really, it's been the past couple years, but we have expanded our parent track offerings over the summer masterclass, to have a little bit more stuff, more stuff during the day, more stuff throughout the week. And honestly, the thing that we've heard more and more is like, we don't mind if you repeat things two or three times from a parent perspective, because sometimes I need to hear sometimes I was a little what was that thing you said, or I need to hear it later again, in the process of we've tried to actually add a little more redundancy and more total information opportunities for parents just so that they can, they can take it all in because it's a lot you're I know now like, as a parent, I'm like, I'm balancing work, and then I pop into this thing. And maybe I'm not in the place where I'm like, I'm 100% present, I might need to hear something a second, third time. So we're trying to make that adjustment on our end.

[21:26] Charlie Murphy: How did you guys feel as you look back about the total number of schools? So do you remember the total number that you applied to? And then how did you feel in terms of was it overkill? Or was it you wish you'd done a little more? You're a little scared? Where was it? Were you in terms of the numbers of it all?

[21:40] Stella Samuel: I think I ended up with like, 28.

[21:45] Betsy Samuel: 28 applications. Uh huh. Yeah, cuz I ended up doing. I started with less. I started with like, maybe like 23. Um, which is not really that many less. Um, but I felt like I, I started out initially with a list. Like I came to Leo and to Amy the first time with like a list of like, here are the really competitive programs. And she was like, you need to put more other ones on there. Um, and so like, you need to balance this. And so I feel like I kind of, I mean, in hindsight, I could have like, oh, I if I knew that I would have gotten in here, like I didn't need to apply to these schools, but like, I wasn't gonna know that. And so I felt good about the number of schools that I had, because also I did have, I applied to 28 schools, but I didn't do 28 auditions, right? So like some of those schools ended up being pre-screened, have auditions, or pre-screens that I didn't pass.

[22:45] Charlie Murphy: Yep. So and then how did you actually make the auditions happen? You mentioned being on the West Coast is a little tougher to travel to as many schools on campus. So how did you do that in terms of navigating? What was that unified? What you might have done on campus that different units? Did you multiple unified?

[23:00] Stella Samuel: Yeah, so I actually ended up not doing any on campus. Just didn't. Yeah, everything kind of worked out. So I did kind of a combination of New York unified, LA unified, and then like a few online ones. Yeah, because that was how I mean, getting to Ithaca, which I don't know if I said that I said at the top of that, that's where you end up getting Ithaca from LA is a trip. That's not an easy.

[23:27] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, you want to do that once you're already in maybe versus just do a 10 minute audition and leave.

[23:34] Stella Samuel: I mean, I totally make sense. Yeah. And I do think and I think you likely intuited this from Leo strategy. And from talking to Amy to it's like, the idea of adding more of those competitive schools on the list to balance your list out is not because we don't think you're going to get into a most competitive school, which ultimately you did, it actually is to strategize your best chance to get into that most competitive school, giving you that broader scope allows you you did end up at a most competitive school.

[23:59] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, amazing. You ended up at a big name school, but but to have that balance to allow you to make that not just one of seven auditions where you're worth a little bit too risky. Certainly some of at least our thinking behind that, that process. Um, can we talk a little bit about the process of like coming to a final decision? So how did you think about narrowing down the schools and as you're doing, maybe you didn't do this blank curriculum comparison, but how did you do the the ultimate coming down to a final decision?

[24:22] Stella Samuel: Yeah, I, the weird part for me was that, like, the answers that I ended up with were of programs that were all like, very different, completely different, which was was easier to compare them, but also harder to compare them. So yeah, it kind of came down to like, what do I actually want? What do I want my everyday to be? What do I want this to actually look like? Like, um, I had, I did end up going with an acting major, because I ended up doing the research and realizing that, like, this is actually more of what I want. And I would get to do more of what I want here. And even of the musical theater stuff, in this acting program, rather than maybe a BA with a musical theater emphasis or another musical theater program.

[25:08] Betsy Samuel: Yeah. Um, also, I finally, I didn't really do a lot of campus visits during the process. But then I did. Once I got in, and I visited your final couple schools. Yeah, I visited my final couple. And the Ithaca visit definitely helped because every single person there was so nice and was so like, excited that I was there. Yeah. And I got to shadow some classes. So that was really helpful.

[25:36] Charlie Murphy: And can you talk me through a little bit of the counterfactuals of like, you mentioned the very different programs. So what were the considerations? And I want to now weave in the acting versus MT of it all. But whether it's between an MT option, a more academic option, what level of academics, how were you sort of picturing? I think a lot of people end up that way, the process where they may have a really good academic option, a really good conservatory option, a more BFA liberal art option, acting MT, and they're seeing these different paths and going, that feels like it's going to be this hugely determinative of this will be the actor I am, which of course it's not, but but it is a different path in your collegiate experience. So what was that consideration for yourself between the different options?

[26:10] Stella Samuel: Yeah, I mean, I think this was a this goes back to something I was saying before. But this is a piece of advice that Leo gave me of one of the programs that I was looking at, he was like, you're looking at this as something that it's not like, this is not what it is. And also the other thing of like, okay, this school wants you for acting, not musical theater.

[26:32] Stella Samuel: Are you okay with that? Um, and so there were a lot of conversations. There were a lot of sort of figuring out going back to, as I said, going back to that original list of like, why does this school still on your list? Why was it on your list a long time ago? What was interesting about it? What was, what was, you know, sort of hitting you about it, right? It was a family conversation. So like, there's only two of us here, but there's two other people in the family, you know, in the immediate family. My sister got a vote too, my God. Oh, yeah, she got a vote. But there's, there's a, there was a lot of discussion, a lot of sort of figuring out looking at the factors, talking to, to, you know, Leo was fantastic in that conversation, multiple conversations actually about it.

And, and just kind of trying to, and talking, you know, I didn't share, I shared this a little bit before, but reaching out to the people that I became close with through this process that I met, like moms and parents, I met during lots of different places like Mocs and the faculty, you know, masterclass and really trying to sort of talk with each other because what was great about it was there's not, yeah, we're all, all the kids are competitive in terms of trying to get into these programs, but it was a community kind of feel to it. And I kind of, you know, leaned on again, going back to what I said before of no one else has gone through this process in, you know, in our, in our location. Right.

And so, so it was, it was really nice to talk through some of my own concerns about it also. Right. And then share them with her, you know, with Betsy in a way that, you know, she could hear it. I was sort of asking questions more, not really like giving, I wasn't giving my opinion per se, but I was asking questions about things that I saw that she was, you know, maybe concerned about, or, you know, wondering, wondering about. And anyway, I kind of ended up looking at it as, I realized that the programs that I was looking at, some of them were going to teach me how to be an actor. And then some of them were just going to teach me about like, what is theater? And so I was focusing in and looking back at like what I originally had said and what I think now of like, what am I looking for?

I want to learn how to do this. I want to actually be doing it. And that's some of the BA options, maybe, which would be a little bit more broad. Yeah. I'll add into like, given what Betsy, you know, her high school experience, again, she went to a humanities magnet program, heavily academic with a drama, you know, company on the side, drama program, but sort of a newly refurbished, if you will, at the time that she started, you know, program, but it wasn't sort of the highlight of her, you know, if you looked at the school itself, the highlight of what her experience was, but knowing that she had talent and wanted to do this and wanted to pursue this, it's like, do you want to, I hate to say it, a repeat of what you had? Do you want to look slightly different, you know, more enhanced version of what you had, or do you want something different? And that was sort of kind of sort of focused our discussion, if you will.

[29:55] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Well, let's dive into that question of then MT versus acting, because, you know, and again, Ithaca specifically, and this is true of a lot of these acting based musical theater programs versus acting programs where they have some musical theater, you know, Gavin is going to, and he's going to come in two weeks from now, which is going to be two months in the past by the time of this episode release. But Gavin comes onto the pod and talks about, you know, we're really Ithaca's training performers. It's not about actors versus MTs. It's about what kind of avenue in the business you'll be in. And there's not a hard line distinction between acting versus MT, but I guess I kind of wonder, how do you think of that perspective now? You know, maybe how did you think of it when you first were researching schools? And then at the end of the process, how do you think of the acting versus MT performer question now, as you ended up choosing an acting program?

[30:36] Betsy Samuel: Yeah, it definitely changed a lot for me. I started out, I think it actually, I'm sure I said it in the initial consult of like, I was like, I want a musical theater program. I feel like I'll get bored just studying acting for four years. Like, it's not going to be enough for me. I was wrong. Because I really also like hadn't previous to this process hadn't really focused in on like, really training and acting. So I just didn't have as much experience in it. And then I started passing prescreens for acting for schools that I had applied to for musical theater. And I was like, first, I was kind of like, oh, so they they don't want me. They don't want me. But I ended up looking at it as like, oh, maybe this is really more where I should be focusing.

And because I also through my monologue coaching, like I got really excited about it. And I got really invested in like, oh, this is fun. Um, which I know that all of acting is not doing monologues. But like, even in the like, I'm going to stare at the wall and say my monologue, like, I was having a lot of fun with it. And I was having a lot of fun exploring that. And so I realized, like, oh, I, I love to sing, I love to dance, but I really want something that's grounded in the acting of it. Um, yeah. And ultimately, it kind of came down to the program at Ithaca, I felt like would will give me, like that foundation in acting, and then also like the opportunity to do other stuff. Because I remember, like, in looking at the acting programs, like, it was kind of one of the only ones that I was looking at that, like, requires dance for the acting majors, and gives the opportunities to do other things.

So and certainly, you are not done singing and dancing in your life. Like, I would just say that, like, you never know, because of course, as you grow as a person, what you might end up be interested in. But like, I now as an acting major myself, I am a more confident singer than some of my MT classmates, you know, some of just where how your voice develops and how you're different, whatever. But I'm like, now I'm like, I'm a pretty confident singer. I'm not at the level of my wife. I mean, there are people you go, that is a musical theater star where their voice is the thing that's shining about them. But like, absolutely, depending what the audition is, you will, maybe it'll be a dance, maybe we'll be singing.

For me, dance is still not the best. There's no version of me being a confident dancer. But like, for you to be like, okay, where is my skill set? And what that could that develop into? But it's also such a great, like, it's a great little mini lesson for what the industry will continue to do for you in the like, when you say I'm passing acting pre screens, it gives you that interesting consideration of like, okay, what's the world telling me? And then how do I want to respond to that? Because sometimes it may respond to you and you go, yeah, but I want this other thing anyway. So I'm gonna work on that until they listen to me that I am a great singer, I am a great dancer, whatever. But sometimes it'll be get even more specific in the examples in the industry, but it'd be like, hey, I'm getting a lot of specifically, you know, musical theater comedy callbacks to like, is that what I want to spend most of my life doing?

Like, you know, that's, that's a seems like I'm getting commercial interest from that. Do I want to keep doing that? Or do I need to expand and have them see me a different way. But there is that interesting, like synchronicity of like, do I do I like what I'm the response I'm getting? And if so, it feels nice to move in that direction and that where you're getting response. So it looks like you were jumping in there.

[33:58] Stella Samuel: Oh, no, no, of course. I love what you just said. I think that the other piece is just recognizing how you start out in this process is so I mean, it's not point A to point B in straight line. It's literally like, you know, like, yeah, such a roller coaster ride. Good and bad, you know, not bad, but like challenging, you know, and you learn a lot about yourself, both as a student, you know, and an applicant, I should say, and then also as a parent, in terms of how to support how to step back when to engage, you know, when to not. And I think that I do remember Betsy saying, what? Why did I pass for that? You know, kind of, you know, why did they why didn't I do this, you know, and I and it was more just recognizing, hey, but let's look at the more silver lining of this.

The school said, yes, and wants to see you. Right. And and sort of trying to just be in it a little bit more. And I said before, be present. But but I think it's it's really trying to engage in recognizing you shift and change and what you start with might not end up where you where you end up being. But that doesn't mean it's not fantastic at the same time.

[35:11] Charlie Murphy: So well said. All right, let's take a short break. And on the back end of the break, I want to dive a little deeper into your communication, your perfect communication as therapist daughter relationship. So we're back in a flash.

[35:20] Charlie Murphy: Okay, we are back with Betsy and Stella Samuel. And we're going to talk about that wonderful communication. I mentioned sort of the mom daughter relationship, which, you know, I think often we have so many students who have beautiful mom daughter relations. Sometimes it's tense and difficult, I think, partially based on what you mentioned, Stella, of like, it's not your process. Sometimes there's some friction there. Sounds like you guys did pretty well with that. But how if you were to give maybe some advice to like, how do how would an another non therapist slash different mom daughter duo, how would they replicate what really worked about your two communication? Like, even the way that I see, like, you guys be getting this call and like looking at each other.

And like, there is clearly from a body language perspective, you guys do have a really good communication pattern that not all of our, you know, sometimes we do an initial consult and the parent and kid feel like they're in a different world and fighting with each other even even on the same screen. How do how do we replicate that if possible that great communication you had?

[36:15] Betsy Samuel: Very good question. I feel like you're asking us to put on a different hat is that I'm asking you to basically do years of therapy for people in you know, in one in one brief little comment, of course, I feel like mainly is like a communication thing and really talking to each other and listening to each other.

[36:30] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. And how much for you, Betsy felt like, how much for you felt like mom giving you the space? Or you communicating? Hey, your needs, like, obviously, it's an element of both to some extent. But did you feel like, hey, mom really laid this out for me. And then I was able to step into it. Or were you like, hey, I was very clear what I wanted. And that allowed mom to to give me that order or pushback.

[36:55] Betsy Samuel: I feel like I mean, it really was both a combination of both like in different steps of the process. I know that like specifically for unifieds and like New York invites because we traveled for it. It was very much like, okay, what do you need? And we will figure out how to make that happen. What do you mean? Mom asked you that?

[37:11] Betsy Samuel: Yeah. Yeah. How do you want me to show up? How do you what do you need for the room? What do you need for your bag? What's helpful? Like food wise? I mean, all of those little logistic things, but also like, emotionally, where are you at? And what do you need in terms of walk ins in terms of support in terms of who, because we traveled all four of us. So like, you know, you know, who needs to be in the room needs to help?

[37:35] Stella Samuel: Yeah, I think? Yeah. How do you want me to go that door? We left the egos at the door. It wasn't about my feelings. It wasn't about my thoughts. It wasn't about what was going on for me. Again, that's really you're asking me a really hard question to like, put myself not in a therapist, I've been trained. I mean, I certainly see people who do who who react in a different way than I do not in a bad way, but just in a different way than I do. And I think it comes down to, again, reminding ourselves, what is this about? Is it our turn to shine? Is it their turn to shine? Is it trying to really understand the difference between I might have had a lot of thoughts about whatever was going on an audition, application and essay, you know, school to put on be put on the list, which I think I did actually a couple times, I did actually say a couple times, and Amy will probably confirm you're allowed.

Of course, I'm like, No, no, no, we're not applying there. And, and, and that's, I kind of feel like, because we had already had that communication down, you know, and that understanding, both how I came across and how I focused it. But also, if when I knew how to engage, you know, because I've raised her so like, you know, I've been around and I've done this. And so, so when I knew when she was spiraling, what to do, like how to how to engage in that, I knew kind of, and having the conversation about like, do you need me to say anything? Do you not mean me to say something?

[39:10] Stella Samuel: I'll give you a great example of communication that Betsy did for us. As the in the New York, I think it was New York unifies, she said, before we went, like in the hotel room, do not say a word, do not speak in like any elevator, don't talk about anything, nothing, like nothing, right. And we did get some looks, when we were expressive, you know, without talking, you know, like, stop, you know, I appreciate and hopefully the rest of the family appreciate that too.

[39:48] Betsy Samuel: It really having those kind of conversations, I think, ahead of time and preparing ourselves both emotionally and just in having like sitting down and having those conversations, not necessarily sitting down, but having the conversations and the day-to-day experience and then meeting, you know, like regularly to say, hey, this is our time to talk about this process, whether it's choosing schools, whether it's outfits for the pre-screens, whether it's or outfits for the audition. Or, you know, room space, you know, whatever it might have been in terms of the process and when to get there, you know, all those things. I think we're really important to sort of make sure that we were even if we weren't on the same page that we understood what the other person was trying to communicate with us.

[40:34] Charlie Murphy: Were there ever times when it was a little bumpy? Were there any, you know, maybe times when you were over-functioning as a therapist and giving too much therapy? And basically, I don't want therapy now, mom. Were there any times where there were some rocky parts of it? Or was it all smooth sailing?

[40:47] Stella Samuel: That's a question for you. Not for me. Yeah, that's that's really good. Yeah, I'm trying to think I feel like be honest. It's okay. No, I'm trying to like, I feel like, occasionally, like, sometimes in this process, you kind of need someone to just be like, okay, this is what you're doing. Like, I just need an opinion. You need to give me your opinion. And so like, it's kind of finding that balance, I feel like between, okay, this is your this is my process. I'm gonna like, take the lead. And, and you're gonna support and then also like, okay, I'm 17 or 18 years old. And I just need someone to tell me what to do for a second. Um, like, just give me your opinion.

[41:28] Betsy Samuel: She was like being good therapist. You're like, Can you just tell me tell me where to go tell me what to do. I can't.

[41:33] Charlie Murphy: That's great advice, actually, because the fact is, I think that's the question I often give to parents when I'm working with them who, you know, have a challenging relationship with her with her adolescent or their young adult. It's, it's emerging young adult. They, you know, it's what do you need here? Right? Do you need my advice? Do you need me to tell you what to do? Do you need me just to listen and you'd event and you know, what is it that you need? And, and by the way, asking that question, sometimes while it might sound really annoying to your child, really annoying to your child, it's really helpful because it's not because then you can know what how to show up. Yeah, you don't know how to show up otherwise. And then you're just guessing and assuming and then it just starts to, you know, things start to spiral.

[42:17] Betsy Samuel: It's great advice. And it's funny, I'm just thinking about with that therapy question, I'm thinking about like, some of the ways where we're having extra expertise may actually sometimes be unhelpful, even though I think for the most part, it's probably helpful to you. But like, I think about like, with my wife, especially during COVID, when I was her forced reader for everything. There's times when I'm like, I am a professional audition coach, but I have to be like, Do you want notes? Do you and sometimes you'd be like, Nope, don't want any notes. I know it's not good. Let's just record it and happy to have it be done. I was like, Okay, great. I'm not giving you notes. That accent is not correct.

But okay, we're gonna do whatever things like that. You're like, but like, I imagine there's some of the reverse of that, too, of like, I don't need good therapist now. Just tell me what to do. And just like, let's move on. Yes, you're doing good technique right now. But I don't want to be therapized. I want like, just be my annoyed mom with me right now or whatever. Don't you know, don't help me so much or something.

[43:05] Betsy Samuel: Yeah. Um, what you mentioned the moratorium on speaking after the audition is very smart, some version of whatever your your boundaries and rules are around there. How did you guys deal with like synthesizing auditions afterward? Did you then talk about them and debrief them? And then same question for like receiving results? How did you deal with sort of synthesizing the audition afterward and then eventually weeks later finding out that result?

[43:27] Stella Samuel: Yeah, I think the first thing that I would do is that I would come out of the room and I would write down, like what happened, how I felt about it, how I felt it went.

[43:37] Betsy Samuel: Love that.

[43:38] Stella Samuel: Debrief. Your own opinion, you're talking just you. Yeah.

[43:42] Stella Samuel: Yeah. And then later when we're not in, in the audition space, we would talk about it and we would like I would sometimes like get out my notes and go through that to like kind of like remind myself. And then sometimes we would just be like, just talk about like how we felt it went. So that it kind of could be a, okay, this happened, this is how it went. Let's talk about it and then not freak out about it for three months until we get an answer. We did, you know, try to obviously not say anything, you know, in the space. Right. And we did on occasion share like an opinion or a thought or read someone's body language, you know, kind of thing from the auditioner or, you know, whatever it was, and share it as sort of a shared experience.

So it didn't feel like you're downloading. That's it. Because I think that's also part of the challenge too. It's, you can't put yourself on total, like, we're not robots. We're not, you know, sort of nothing, you know, like, have you want to vent and gossip and have a moment of fun.

[44:50] Betsy Samuel: Yeah. And so like, it's, it's. And, and for the most part, what I will say is there was. I was telling Betsy this actually even the other day, there was one audition. I was not present. I was working, and it was in LA. Actually, you helped her with it, by the way. Yeah, that's true. And, and when I said to her was, it doesn't matter what the result is, it's about about showing up for yourself. Right. And being the best version of yourself. And when I sort of reconnected afterwards, when I could, you know, I was out of sessions and whatnot, I called and, and on my way to go meet my husband and Betsy, just listening and hearing Betsy speak, and the enthusiasm of just knowing that she showed up for herself was fantastic.

[45:41] Charlie Murphy: It's awesome. I mean, that is the goal. Like, you know, that's why, like, I'm a big fan of post audition synthesis, especially if more of it can feel process based, if it can feel like a game tape mentality that we're breaking down. And how did I do it showing up for myself? You know, it's natural. You're never going to get to 0% of gossip of going, did they like me? They smile, they wink. What do they say? Just knowing, well, that's not helpful talk like that is just me wondering. And that's, that's the part of me that's the, what's the word? Pundit. It's the punditry. It's the analysis. That's not really doing anything for me. But the experience of doing 25 auditions, you will get better at them faster and more if you can analyze how did I show up and what made me able to show up today versus, you know, two days ago, I didn't feel as much myself.

I wasn't in my body. Is it the warm up? Is it what is it so that you then can get better and better auditioning? That is the goal is that you can keep showing up more and more for yourself throughout the process.

[46:32] Betsy Samuel: Anyway, I will say driving in the car like afterwards when I heard her voice, I was so excited. It was awesome.

[46:32] Charlie Murphy: It's thrilling. I mean, you get to see real growth as a human in your, your young child or your, your emerging young adult, as you say. You mentioned with the receiving results those weeks later, did you guys do a shared family email account? How did you, was everyone checking the portals? All four of you, a sister in there checking them too? How did you in terms of receiving results, communicating them? How did that go for you guys?

[47:01] Stella Samuel: Yeah, so a while ago we set up like kind of like a college email just so they would all go to that email and be kind of its own thing. And so the two of us were the only ones logged into that. So that was really for like, especially because I couldn't use my phone at school. And so like, if I got a result at school for prescreens, I couldn't look at it. And so then by the time I got home, like everything would be gone. So it was, it was mainly like, okay, we both check it and then she would like sometimes do the scheduling of it or send me options for it. And then for results, I feel like you were very good about like, you're like, you got an email, I'm not going to read it. It's yours to find out.

[47:54] Betsy Samuel: That's very impressive. Not a lot of moms are doing that. That's good.

[47:58] Stella Samuel: You did open it and just didn't tell her, right? You opened it.

[48:02] Betsy Samuel: No, I really didn't. I didn't look. I didn't look, honestly. I did. I will say, you know, there's pros and cons to having that email on my phone.

[48:12] Stella Samuel: Yeah. You look at it a lot.

[48:15] Betsy Samuel: Yeah, you do look at it. And when you know, like, oh, this is the timeframe that something's coming out, whether it be a prescreen results or actual results, you know, it's that, oh my God, I can't. And I will say, I did go into this like, oh my God, she got the result, but I can't look. I can't look at, I can't look at that. That's not mine. You know, I like had to like tell myself over and over again, that's not mine. That's not mine. That's not mine. I will say that, but I didn't, I didn't because honestly, I don't, I don't want years from now her saying to me, but you took my joy away from looking at that. Or, you know, like, but I do feel like there were times when she opened stuff that I wasn't around, you know, like I knew she got it, but I wasn't around or I might've been working or whatever it might be.

And, and so it wasn't, um, it was kind of a combination of like opening things together and then like me opening things and then always though we would like, yeah, talk about it, text about it, like feel, feel.

[49:14] Stella Samuel: I love that question of should it be on your phone or not? I mean, that is, my wife always tells me that if I'm checking my email at 11 PM, she goes, what are you going to do with that email? You couldn't do it 9 AM tomorrow. And I'm like, you're right. I don't know why I'm looking at this just to get my own anxiety up of what I have to deal with tomorrow. Is that helping me really? Yeah.

[49:31] Betsy Samuel: What did you do in general for online consumption of information? Were you guys similar? And we mentioned the empty parent page that you were on. I imagine you were not on that Betsy, but the, um, were you checking other people's TikToks and Snapchats and Instagrams or how were you guys consuming information from an online perspective? And how did you deal with that from kind of a mental health perspective?

[49:48] Stella Samuel: Yeah, I, I was on a couple like group chats of people. We had like an MTCA group chat that we started in the summer. I kind of at some point, and I was talking to my friends about it. Um, of like, I kind of just had to mute it. And like, sometimes I would check it, but I was like, I can't be checking this all the time because, um, I sort of did get in my head a little bit of like people posting like, oh, I passed this many prescreens like past this one today. And I'm like, okay, I didn't hear anything yet. Um, and so I sort of learned quickly that I'm like, I was like, okay, I can check this sometimes for information. But other times, I'm like, I don't need to see it. I don't need to get the notifications.

[50:21] Betsy Samuel: Yeah, that's, that's so smart. The idea of like, we talked about compare and despair, and like, don't do that. But I think sometimes people hear the advice of like, be inhuman, which is there'll be like, so just don't let yourself despair when you compare. But I think what you're saying about taking active steps to not spend all day comparing is really smart. I mean, you know, we were just talking about the Knicks just won a championship as this comes out. And someone was like, how do you think Tom Thibodeau, who's the coach from last year feels? I'm like, he's likely happy for some people and also devastated. Like, both those things can be true. Because you're sitting there being like, last year, I was the coach, and I'm not winning.

And I'm happy that you guys did, but I didn't. Like, that's natural. It's a human experience that you would go. I'm happy for you, friend, but I'm also sad for myself. So why put yourself in that situation? Yeah, 20 times a day, or whatever.

[51:20] Stella Samuel: I think the same is true for the parents, though, you know, like, in terms of checking things, and, and I kind of, maybe it's, I don't want to blame the therapist, you know, hat, but, but I kind of take things with a grain of salt, you know, like, you know, like, kind of like recognize what I need and what I don't. And when things were getting too tough, kind of like Betsy, from my own perspective of like, hearing things, I went, you know what, I need a break from this. Because it is a stressful process. There's no question, it's your child applying and putting themselves out there and, and being vulnerable and, and sort of, you know, trying to pursue something that is, I mean, by the way, unbelievably competitive, like, it's just, it's crazy how competitive this process is, and the journey itself.

And so I think it's a matter of like, really trying to give yourself that break when you need it. Check in, you know, in those things, you know, because sometimes, actually, it's really helpful advice, by the way, I will say, and then, you know, make sure that you have some really good friends who are going through it at the same time, you know, that you can rely on that you can talk to that you can go, Oh, my God, I just heard this. And then, you know, and then they can say, Oh, you know, well, yeah, don't, you know, either don't worry about that, or, or, oh, I understand that, or whatever it might be.

[52:36] Betsy Samuel: Yeah, it was kind of like the balance between like, okay, I'm in a big group of these people. And we're all talking about stuff, giving, getting advice, giving advice. And then also like, but then I can like, mute that and go talk to my like, two friends here that I like, yeah, that we're going through the same thing. And we like feel the same way about it.

[53:04] Betsy Samuel: Even though intellectually you could tell yourself what other people are struggling to, other people I know who are talented. It's like, I've just been telling my daughter this, I'm like, other people are shy too. You just don't see the shy ones as much. But everyone else feeling a little bit shy and like everyone's feeling a little bit of imposter syndrome and everyone's feeling a little, it just doesn't appear that way. But when we look at things online, you don't see the imposter syndrome. You see the, I got into Carnegie Mellon, I got into Ithaca, I got into Juilliard. You're like, good for you, great, I'm glad for you. You see all of those and you're like, oh, so everyone else is passing and I'm not.

Exactly, even though you know, if you take that upfront, they're like, oh yeah, I didn't pass this one and I didn't pass that one. And you're like, oh yeah, yeah, that's right. How many times, I cannot count, you know, how many times I was like, oh my God, she's not getting in anywhere. Like, she's gonna be the only one, you know, or the 1%. We all think we're the 1%. But.

[53:51] Stella Samuel: No, you're not the 1%. No, no, no, we all think you're the 1%. You're one of the most competitive schools in the country. But what I will say is, what the one thing that kept like repeating on, you know, and going on, was something that I think was mentioned by a parent when I, you know, had that brief moment of being present at the last, you know, thing, was, you know, your child's gonna end up where they belong.

[54:13] Betsy Samuel: Yeah.

[54:14] Stella Samuel: Your child is going to end up where they belong. Yeah, and that was also something with the kind of getting results of like, okay, well, let's look at this program again and go, oh yeah, actually, maybe that wasn't the place for me.

[54:27] Betsy Samuel: Right, right.

[54:28] Stella Samuel: What part of it is ego? We talked about wrapped up with the name of the school. There's ego in the numbers too. Oh, you got 12 acceptances? Well, you can only go to one school. Who cares about the 12 acceptances to school that you're not gonna go to? At some point, that's not actually doing anything for you.

[54:41] Betsy Samuel: Yeah.

[54:42] Stella Samuel: Yeah. You mentioned the community advice. I'd love to sort of move toward, as we wrap up to talk about sort of advice in general, I'd love to hear, first, I think you mentioned some of them, but if there's anything that you felt like MTCA said that you really appreciate it and would wanna relate to other families. And then on the flip side, was there anything that from the community that you go, I actually wish MTCA would say this more, or for whatever reason that you got from a family member or that you, from your own experience, that you go, I didn't hear this advice, but I really would wanna pass it on. So anything that you really liked from us and anything that you go, I felt like this could have been emphasized a little bit more that I heard from the community. I'm asking that of both of you. So feel free to jump in as you will.

[55:19] Betsy Samuel: Yeah. I feel like I heard this a lot throughout, like at all the events and like from coaches, from Leo and from you and from like alumni of like show up as yourself and like be you in the room and be present and have fun. And it's kind of something that like we repeat a lot because like, it's kind of hard to, you hear it and you're like, okay, well, how do I do that? But it is something that like really kind of became important for me of like, okay, I get to go, like New York Unifieds, I get to go this weekend and just do what I love a bunch of times in a row for a bunch of people. So like kind of focusing on like the joy of it and like why we do it, I guess.

[56:08] Stella Samuel: Yeah. Just like that idea of compare and despair. It's not a snap your fingers and just don't do it. It's be yourself is incredibly hard, active advice that you have to take. Not just like, hey, stop not being yourself. Go be yourself. It's like, no, be yourself is very hard in the room. That's not easy.

[56:21] Betsy Samuel: Yeah. What about you, Stella?

[56:23] Stella Samuel: I think, you know, there's so like many things. It's hard to narrow it down a little bit. I think that, you know, again, probably, you know, as I said, just a little while ago, like your child's gonna get into where they belong to and then we'll choose where, what fits them kind of thing. The being present was overheard, you know, constantly. I remember actually a conversation with Leo. I cannot, oh, we had a list by the way of ongoing list of, you know, things to talk about. And we just kept updating it by the way. So I would recommend that for sure. It wasn't necessarily an MTCA thing, but it was organized for us. I remember Leo, you know, I had a whole list of questions. That's what reminded me of the notes app.

A whole list of questions. And one of them was fairly early on. I said, well, what is this walk-in thing at Unified? And he looked at me and he's like, you don't need to worry about that right now. Just be present here. Be where you are right now as a junior in this process. You don't need to know it exists, but you don't need much more than that right now.

[57:22] Betsy Samuel: Yeah. That's so smart.

[57:23] Stella Samuel: Yeah. I think, you know, some of it is not just advice. It's also just the community that you guys sort of create. I mean, first of all, the coaches that Betsy had were unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

[57:42] Betsy Samuel: Yeah.

[57:44] Stella Samuel: Supportive, you know, thoughtful. I finally met her monologue coach at-

[57:54] Betsy Samuel: Oh yeah.

[57:55] Stella Samuel: At one of the auditions. At one of the private auditions here in LA. And I was like, oh my God. And it was felt like I had known her already, but like just in terms of the communication, I think it was really sweet and lovely. And there's some human connection there, you know, which is really, really, I think, important. I think the idea that you don't have to do everything, you don't have to consume everything was also something that was given. Sorry, I'm going to just go on my little sort of list, I guess.

[58:21] Betsy Samuel: Go through your list.

[58:23] Stella Samuel: We want it, yeah, for sure. You know, don't have to show up at every single webinar, every single thing, like figure out what works for you and your schedule and your process.

[58:32] Betsy Samuel: Yeah.

[58:33] Stella Samuel: Don't listen to that, parents. You have to go to every single webinar.

[58:35] Betsy Samuel: Every single one.

[58:36] Stella Samuel: Don't think she's wrong about that.

[58:37] Betsy Samuel: Everything else-

[58:37] Stella Samuel: Every single one. But I will say though, like it's really important to reach out, you know, to all of you, you know? And I mean, in terms of, you know, I reached out to you, you know, with Betsy, you know, and I, you know, again, communicated with her beforehand about getting some extra support from you, you know? And not because she desperately needed it.

[59:01] Betsy Samuel: Right.

[59:02] Stella Samuel: It was more just, hey, this is an opportunity. So it was-

[59:05] Betsy Samuel: Yeah, using the resources that MTCA lets us have. The faculty master class week was fantastic. I know you're making changes, but like-

[59:17] Stella Samuel: No, but only improved.

[59:17] Betsy Samuel: Improved. But the concept of just having that access and Leo saying, no one is getting into college this week. No one is getting into college this week is really important because then you show up.

[59:31] Stella Samuel: Yeah.

[59:31] Betsy Samuel: As a child, you know, as a student, you know, as not an applicant then, you're just a student, you know? And I think, you know, a lover of musical theater or acting, whatever it might be, you know?

[59:42] Stella Samuel: Yeah.

[59:42] Betsy Samuel: And-

[59:44] Stella Samuel: I love that.

[59:45] Betsy Samuel: And I think that advice of the notes app too, I think it's great not only to organize your thoughts, but also if you're talking about like, which it sounds like you did in your parent-child relationship too, it allows you to be present then in the moments, like you can dump your brain and be like, I'm gonna have a place to ask that question, but now let me be here and I don't have to be thinking about this 24 seven because it can consume you if you're like always, as soon as I have this question, I have to ask it. It's like, you actually don't. You'll have time later, put that down on the list and then you'll go through your stuff. You'll go through your questions at family time or when you're having a coaching coordinator consult or those kinds of things.

[1:00:16] Stella Samuel: Yeah. I think, yeah, go ahead.

[1:00:18] Betsy Samuel: Oh, you kind of talked about this before of like, the way that MTCA lets us like, okay, here's what we have to offer you. You pick how you wanna use it. Here's the advice that we have. You decide how that works for you. And so like for Unifieds, I didn't do a ton of walk-ins and I know people who did, but like I kind of realized like for myself, I wanted to do a few, but then really like focus on like, here are the appointments that I'm here for. Let me have some space in between and focus on what I need. And I feel like with all the webinars and the kind of like panels and everything, it was helpful to hear that like, okay, here's what has worked for other people and it might not work for you and it might work for you and you decide like how you wanna use that.

[1:01:13] Betsy Samuel: That's really smart.

[1:01:14] Stella Samuel: And you know, you're somebody who started early. You'd already applied to 23 schools at the top, 28 by the end of it. You're probably not somebody who needs walk-ins in the same way that somebody who starts their beginning of senior year and has 15 schools on their list needs them. Like that's right to be like, I hear the benefit. I hear the value. Some people even who have a lot of schools still wanna do them for you. You make me go, I'm feeling I'm able to show up for myself. You didn't need the same practice in the same way that other people did. Great, that's you interpreting the advice correct. You didn't do something incorrect there. You actually heard it correctly and said, how do I need it for me? I think that's really smart.

[1:01:44] Betsy Samuel: I just wanna say the green rooms at the two different Unifieds were also really fantastic. Just in terms of like trying to like, especially with all the snow in New York, the first major snow storm, you know, over winter, was just really helpful just to like, know that you're not, that there's people there, right? It didn't matter whether it was food or drinks or whatever. It's just reception, you know, and being able to connect with people, you know, yeah. Because, you know, of the, you know, sort of the amazing, you said, or actually I think Leo said it at the kickoff meeting in New York. You're like, Pearl was quiet today, but just wait until tomorrow, you know? And like, and wow, that was, that was like, it's-

[1:02:30] Stella Samuel: Especially if you're not, you guys I know originally New Yorkers, but if you're used to being in LA, it's a different place.

[1:02:37] Betsy Samuel: It's a much different process.

[1:02:38] Stella Samuel: Like we're talking, wow. But I do think it's like invest in, I consider this an investment in her journey and her future of who she is and who she's become. And I think the other piece of advice, sorry, I was remembering it when Betsy was talking. No, no, no, no, no, it wasn't a bad thing. It was, Leo said this, I think you've said this also during like sort of conversations or whatnot. Your child will grow and mature through this process, which is almost more important than where they end up or what happens or what pre-screens that pass or what they don't pass or what kind of, you know, what they're looking ultimately for. They will figure out themselves. And it's amazing to see the journey. I mean, I think we were fairly close beforehand. I'll say for my, I think we were really close, but I think we became even closer.

[1:03:30] Betsy Samuel: Yeah.

[1:03:31] Stella Samuel: So August could be hard.

[1:03:33] Betsy Samuel: Yeah, perfect.

[1:03:33] Stella Samuel: But yeah.

[1:03:34] Betsy Samuel: Yes, it's beautiful. I mean, it is going through a war together. I mean, not exactly a war, but you go through this big transition experience. It does bring you closer to it. I wanna make you wrap with just one more piece of advice, but I wanna make it specific to, I'd love for you to give advice to the other, to your counterpart, even though you guys did very well. So it could be positive things that the person did well, but like Betsy, I'd love to start off, what advice would you have for parents? So what did either your mom do well, or it could be dad, we can involve dad here as well, but just to be thinking about what did, what should parents do that worked here, or if there was something that didn't work, but what advice would you have to parents in terms of how they can navigate their child relationship? And then of course I'll ask the reverse to you, Stella.

[1:04:13] Betsy Samuel: Yeah. I think, I mean, this is sort of what we've already said, but really like, just listen to your kid, listen and be there. And really just like, you know them, you've known them their entire life. So like, you know what sort of works for them and what doesn't and how they respond to different ways of you showing up for them. And so really just like, take this time and go, it's their process, listen to what they need.

[1:04:40] Stella Samuel: Yeah.

[1:04:41] Betsy Samuel: And they will tell you.

[1:04:43] Stella Samuel: I love that. We have said a couple of times, but I think it's worth it as many times as we can hear it. And Stella, what would you say from how the kids can help navigate their parent relationships, maybe especially when they don't have a parent who's functioning quite as well in this case, what's something that you think kids can do to help their parents help them?

[1:05:01] Stella Samuel: I think it's figure out what are the most important points that you want to get across, you know, and share them and talk. And, you know, if it needs to be in any time, kind of communication, a text, an email, whatever it might be, cause you can't talk in person, so to speak, you know, just talk and say what you need. Like really be very as clear and concise and, you know, exacting. Try not to be rude and disrespectful in that, but understand that, you know, again, parents are people too, I guess, you know, but for students, it's literally just be open and talk because ultimately it's about getting what you need.

[1:05:45] Betsy Samuel: I love that. And I just want to underline, echo that, that I think even some parents who maybe are not, you know, therapists and as open and ready for some of that as Stella is, we have watched through this process, be able to listen to their kid if the kid is bold and brave and says, mom, this is what I need. Like, and sometimes you think even this, oh, that mom will never listen. They go, no, they actually did. They heard. And sometimes that's where we'll step in and go, hey, hey, you're good talking. You got to listen. But like, I've seen some pretty anxious, pretty, you know, controlling parents learn through this process. Oh, I need to be able to listen to her a little better. I need to be.

[1:06:20] Betsy Samuel: And it can be really successful to the kids out there. It's like, you gotta be a little bold and brave sometimes. If mom's not giving you that space to go, I do need, I need you to open up that space.

[1:06:31] Charlie Murphy: Well, thank you all. This was so wonderful getting to chat with you. Anything that you didn't get in there that you go, I knew I wanted to say this. I know I needed to add that. You got a lot of wonderful things, but you had a notes app. So if there's anything else that you go, if I don't say this, I'm going to be sad as soon as we hang up this call.

[1:06:45] Stella Samuel: Oh, one last thing about pre-screens. I, it helped me kind of handle the rejections and the, all the results knowing that like, I filmed mid-September and that was great. And like, I felt really good about what I filmed and I felt really good in the moment. And so it kind of helps to, this is in the vein of be present of like, in the vein of be present, being present, like really thinking, okay, maybe this school said no to me, but I gave them every reason to say yes. And I put out good work and I feel good about what I did. And I feel like I showed them, showed them who I am. And so that's kind of what I tried to lead with throughout the process.

[1:07:32] Charlie Murphy: It's wonderful. It's a great place to wrap a great last word. Your dog got the true last word, but she really did. It's so great seeing you, Betsy, Stella. Thanks so much for the time today.

[1:07:43] Betsy Samuel: Thank you.

[1:07:44] Stella Samuel: Thank you.

[1:07:50] Charlie Murphy: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Betsy and Stella. It's a blast from the past. Not only kind of doing the blast in the past with the, the students from, from last year, but also because it was recorded so long ago as I listened back to it. And I believe this will be, for those who are watching on the YouTube, those who are checking the Spotify video, this will be our very last episode in our old location. So RIP to the drop cloth in my bedroom in that studio. And hello to the new office space, which I know for all of you out there, it sounds a bit tinnier, but it feels more professional. So yeah, we're moving up in the world.

[1:08:28] Charlie Murphy: Let's hit some sweet takeaways here. I really liked the idea of support and how Stella talked about it as a huge function of what a coach can do for you as a parent and as a family. You know, I think I've told this story before in the pod, but I remember my initial skepticism when Elizabeth said she wanted to use a doula for our birth. I mean her birth, but let's call it our birth in this case, right? We already were taking birthing classes. We were working with a midwife. I felt like we were really resourced and knew a lot. And I was like, do we really need another voice in the room? Like what's her function going to be? And I will say, if I'm being honest, and I wonder how much this affects some of our parents as they think about coaches, some part of me, I think felt like, hey, wait a second.

Some of those things that you're talking about were things I was going to be doing. I thought I was holding your hand in the room. I thought I was getting you ice chips or whatever the things that I was picturing, right? And again, I think that is the reason some parents can be a bit resistant to coaching is just that question of like, will their voices be drowned out as that voice that has been the primary advisor up to this point? But of course, I've said this before in the pod, my experience with our doula was so overwhelmingly positive. And I found that she was at least as big a resource to me as to Elizabeth. So in the comparison here, it's what people always tell us is that like, we're as big a resource to the parents as we are to the students.

And I really do think that's true, right? Now, of course, Elizabeth was just a rock star through everything, through the whole birth, right? But for me, I leaned a lot on that support, right? All of the little things, right? It's just like, this was a human being who's been to thousands of births. This was my very first one, I guess, except my own, right? This was my first time as an adult going through this. And so even just thinking of like, is this normal, right? Is what should I be doing here? Should I be doing this, more of this? Like a little bit of guidance and a little bit of having gone through that experience was so helpful to me. And to me personally, as somebody who was having someone who's kind of a guide mentor, I will say, I don't remember if I told the story before, but I have such a vivid memory of our doula offering to bring us food when we were like 50 hours into labor.

So it'd been more than two full days at that point. And I was like exhausted, of course. And I kind of demurred at the idea of eating a burrito because I was like watching my carbs at the moment. I was like, no, no, no, I can't do that. Of all the other things, whatever. And I remember our doula's like looking me in the face and being like, Charlie, you're going to eat the damn burrito. It really brought to mind, the reason I remember that memory so much is it brought to mind some of the moments that I've had with families, especially like in the green room, in the more tense moments of Unifieds, where they're feeling really vulnerable and they're feeling really scared because it's their first time going through this experience.

And we're just that little bit of expertise and experience can go a long way for the parents. When I've just looked parents in the eyes, I've been like, you're going to be OK. This is OK. That was a good audition. Don't stress about that specific or that specific. Stay the course. You're doing great. Like those little moments. And needless to say, I did eat the burrito and I turned out fine, right? As it turns out fine for so many of my students and parents. But it's really something I have learned in the years of doing this, just in hearing how helpful that we have been to the parents. When we now say we coach the whole family, that is from our parents needing and asking for that kind of support, which we really gradually increased over the years.

When we started out, I would say I was focused not just on helping the kids. I was really focused on helping the student. But I almost would have an adversarial relationship with our parents as a younger coach, right? My feeling was like, get out of the room. Get out of your kids way. Let them work. I felt more like, come on, mom, let me do this thing, right? And that has hugely shifted for me, right? Now, all we think about is how do we support the whole family, right? How do we support you as parents so that you can better support your kids and our students? That has been such a focus over the past decade in terms of what MTC offers comprehensively. And I really do think it's been a game changer for our families going through this whole process.

[1:12:18] Charlie Murphy: Okay. I also loved Stella's honesty in the way she was talking about, I wish I was more present for this meeting. You know, I said most of the takeaway of what I would say about that in the episode, but just to repeat, of course, that happens to everyone. I mean, nobody's going to get 100% on the experience of being completely present in this process, right? As parents, you're busy. You're juggling so much, right? You're going to make mistakes just like your kid. However, the reason I say this is a takeaway at all is just, it is a good note going in. If you can just bring awareness to that idea of like, hey, when I'm at summer masterclass week, this week is for me too, right? I mean, it's literally true at summer masterclass, when you've got the parent track now, and you're sitting there with a pencil and pen and actually writing stuff down, right?

But it is also really true for stuff like early auditions. I said in the first meeting at PUA, I said, this is for you too, parents. This is a moment for you guys to learn as well. This is your first audition for most of you, right? Hopefully, the student is learning about what they need to warm themselves up, how to psychologically prepare, maybe still some real artistic things that the student is working on at that point. But you also can be really learning about how you can be a better support system in what will be a sustainable way. As you're going through audition one, audition two, audition three, you know, over the course of 20 auditions, how do you improve and how do you as a collective improve in terms of the two of you or the three of you, whoever sort of the support system is in your family? How can you improve as the support system too, right? If they can get better, then you can get better too.

[1:13:41] Charlie Murphy: And I basically said in the episode, and boy, I know you've heard me say it a lot, but just underlining that idea that at MTCA, when we balance out the school list, it is to give you protection, and it's to help you get into those most competitive schools if that's the goal, right? It is not to push you away from the most competitive schools when we add less competitive schools. It's not to say that we think you're not good enough to get into those schools. That's absolutely not the reason we're doing it. It is to help you strategically so that you can shoot for the moon and hopefully hit the damn moon, right? We're trying to give you the protection in case you miss, but we're also trying to be like, let's hit the damn moon, right?

Which so many of our students do. So many of our students get into and often go to most competitive schools, right? While also then being realistic that if you only have six schools on your list, well, that's just not as strategically smart. You're not giving yourself enough balance of protection, but it's not just about what happens if you don't get in. It is about your chance to actually get into it, right? So again, just to say it's for the strategy of achieving those goals, not because we don't think you're going to get into those bigger name schools. Some of our students do, right? Even students who then might choose to attend.

[1:14:45] Charlie Murphy: The other part of it too is that, you know, one of the other parents talked about fit maxing versus competitive maxing or prestige maxing, I think is what they said. You know, some of our students will have a bunch of those competitive schools, get into some of the schools, and then decide actually they have a better fit at a different school and choose that too, right? We generally want you to go to the school that you think you're going to fit best with. We're not trying to maximize competitiveness just for competitiveness sake, but we're also not trying to discourage that. We're not, by adding other schools, we're not saying, oh no, it's better for you to do this other school or you won't get into these schools. It's about really setting you up for success, whatever success means to you.

[1:15:19] Charlie Murphy: Okay, and just popping out, I do think you heard Betsy say that she did nothing on campus, no auditions on campus, right? Just to note, that is totally normal, especially for students who don't live on the East Coast. I would say most of our, especially Northeast families, likely will mix in some on campus, right? Just as they spread their list out also time-wise, it's going to help them a bit, right? As a lot of people in the Northeast are going to be within a few hours drive of some schools on their list, right? Depending where in the Northeast, again, you can get Google Maps out for yourself, but for the most part, if you look at your list and you're on the Northeast, I'll bet there are some schools that are within a couple hours drive, right?

But even there, not all of our Northeast families would do that. Some may choose to focus a large percent of their auditions into those unified weekends, maybe due to their schedule, but also due to budget. It is still economic, it is still cheaper economically, cheaper and economically only means cheaper in this case. I'm not saying a different version of cheaper, but it still potentially could be cheaper to go do those unified auditions and just do three, four auditions in a day, as opposed to individual weekends, even if you're within a driving distance school, right? Especially if you might be driving distance, but still need to do a hotel, you know, all that adds up. So again, for everyone to figure out, but just to say it is totally up to you and you can see that it works.

And we've said this many times, we see with our numbers, right? Time and time again, those national city unified. So when we're talking about national city unified, we mean New York, Chicago and LA slash Anaheim this year, normally it's been LA, right? But the New York, Chicago, West Coast auditions that happen in January and February, those are considered with equal weight as on-campus auditions, right? And potentially different, divorced from the idea of what some of the early auditions are, whether that's a consortium or whatever that is in terms of how that might be considered in the year for a college, that can be different. But when we talk about January, February auditions, whether it's on campus, whether it's at unified, you should really consider them the same and can be just as successful. And we certainly have seen numbers that do that.

[1:17:11] Charlie Murphy: I also really liked Betsy and Stella using different versions of the word competitive in this episode, talking about students being competitive with each other, or I actually think in this case, we're talking about students not being competitive with each other in terms of tone, right? But then talking about, yes, how competitive this process is. They certainly talked about competitive schools. It just reminded me, I don't think I've talked about it yet, but the blog that I just wrote, which released in October, riffing on the word competitive. I like that blog a lot. Check that out. If you're not subscribed to our sub stack, go ahead and subscribe to our sub stack. You of course can find it on our website also at ftca.com slash blog.

Or if you're patient, if you're just a listener who wants to be patient, you'll likely get it in an audio podcast next summer when I think it will still be relevant as we air over our summer break, those audio blogs. But if you want it sooner than not, head over to our blog.

[1:17:58] Charlie Murphy: And then as a takeaway, I really liked Betsy being so honest about what it was to discover higher level acting for the first time in this process. And really how that, in her case, changed what she thought she wanted from a school. Just to say that is totally normal. And I might say even typical, right? Most high school students have no idea what acting at this level is like. Now, you can tell me out there, you're the exception as the listener, your child is the exception as the listener of your parents. And you might be. I mean, of course you might be. There are exceptions to that, right? I don't know your specific high school drama program. You might have truly amazing high school drama that is at this level and absolutely understands.

I can't come to each high school and say that. But I would say for the vast majority of our students when they meet us, even those students who are the most competitive students in the country, the ones who are up for all the Jimmy Awards and winning the Jimmy Awards and the most competitive musical theater talent in this country, still for most of them, I would say that they discover through this process a deeper level of acting than they've ever been asked to do before, right? And that's not a knock on their high school. It's just about the different process and this different thing that you're doing, right? The kind of personal vulnerable work that you do when you craft a piece that you've selected over a couple of months, sometimes over the course of a year, a year and a half, right?

And the expectations of college level acting, it is just different than most high school musicals. You know, I would say the same about myself and my experience going through it. I went to a very high level public high school. We had award-winning musicals that were a big deal. It was a huge high school. Everyone was really talented. A lot of people went on to do this professionally from our high school, right? Wonderfully produced music.

[1:19:36] Charlie Murphy: Singing, dancing, acting, very high in terms of what you'd expect for high school level, right? But I had not done this kind of work. I had not been introduced to the kind of acting work that I would then later understand until I did Carnegie Mellon's pre-college program. And even there, I wouldn't say everybody was doing it, but I met my best friend Alejandro, who is getting a lot of shout outs on this podcast recently, right? And I remember when we were working on monologues for this process, I was like, oh, there's just a deeper level. I was going deeper with stuff. I was being way more myself and way more truthful than when I was playing Marius in Les Mis, right? I think I was a pretty good Marius too.

It's not like I wasn't, you know, bringing a tear to the eye at Empty Chairs and Edged Tables, but it wasn't the same kind of acting, the same kind of expectation that's going to happen at a college audition, right? And again, not to speak down to the high school musicals. I think those are wonderful things, right? It's just in some ways a different art form. And honestly, I will say for those who haven't seen a ton of professional theater, the kind of work you're doing here is deeper, I think, than some Broadway shows, right? If you happen to pop into some of the jukeboxy poppy musicals on Broadway, the acting level may or may not be higher than what you've done before. And honestly, it may not be that much higher than your high school musical, right?

But that's where, when you talk about this high level BFA training, we often talk about it like you're training for the Olympics, right? We want the acting to be at that level of those amazing Broadway shows and those amazing off-Broadway shows and the work where it doesn't have that expectation, which a lot of them really do. And it is another level, right? When you encounter that amazing show in your career, that's going to take that higher level acting ability. You want to be ready for it, right? And that's what certainly these programs are designed to train you to do. And that's the kind of work that they're asking you to step into. They don't expect you to be at the professional level yet.

Of course not. But they expect you to be stepping into that arena of the kind of work that's going to be done at a high level, right? But all of which is to say, both when you're acting in your monologues and when you're acting your songs for college auditions, this process will likely show you a side of yourself acting-wise that you haven't seen before. And that experience likely will change you in some way, right? It may not change you in terms of your interest at the college level, like it happened to do for Betsy, though it may, that's certainly not atypical that it has happened, but it will likely alter and mature you as a human being. There are difficulties of this process that I think can really help with that threshold growth.

I often talk about, you know, from 17 to 18 that you're sort of crossing this threshold, and we see so many of our students go through the experience. Some of it is just the difficulty of going through this process, and of course graduating high school and all those normal things people go through. But I do think some of the high-level acting work that our students are doing with their coaches, when they go, oh, I mean so many parents tell us, my child is just so much more mature. She's dropped into herself. She feels like a different person. Like some of it is going through that kind of work that you're going to do, that it is asking a higher level. The same way that, you know, doing a certain amount of dance class, like going to the gym, you may feel differences in your body.

I do feel like going through that higher level acting work, you're going to feel difference in your psyche. You're going to feel difference in the way you breathe. You're going to drop in. That certainly acting school will do that to you over four years for sure, but even just spending a year with MTCA, we watch our students do that all the time where you go, they do just feel like they're three years older from having gone through this experience. Okay, that's a long takeaway. And oh man, I could do another long takeaway about spreadsheets here. I could go for probably an hour on spreadsheets. If I had to, I think I said plenty of it in the episode and I've said some of it before and it's boring for those of you who aren't at this exact point, sort of as juniors starting your process, but just to note for those of you are sort of starting your process, if you're a sophomore, freshman, junior listening to this, right?

Depending on the kind of spreadsheet person you are, I just want to note what Betsy and Stella said, that you're not necessarily crazy to have five different spreadsheets throughout this process, right? And I know this is somebody who has created the master master spreadsheet with a bajillion columns before, that some people like to have that giant one, which is hard enough to know, like going through the whole process, what is it going to be from me as a sophomore, just beginning to when I'm finishing and making a final decision, that's a lot of columns and trying to get those in the right order is hard enough, right? But I also just say that for some people that can be really overwhelming.

If you're looking at that as a spreadsheet, you want to go, what do I do? How do I deal with all this, right? It can be really overwhelming, especially knowing that some of those are data points you're not going to deal with for two years and likely will not deal with at all for some of these schools, right? So some people do like to have those different spreadsheets or different tabs, if you want to think of it that way, those different tabs, where first there's just a simple research tab with a lot of schools on it, right? And then there's eventually that kind of more pulling hard data tab. And then there's the scheduling tab as you're getting results. Some people like to have those all really separate, right?

It is really about what makes your brain work, right? But also, as we talked about before, recognizing what is important at different times, right? Not just in not overly worrying about pulling concrete data. We've talked about that before, the idea of like, you don't necessarily want to pull concrete data on all your schools when deadlines for schools that you might not even end up on your list, but even just recognizing some of the information that you're collecting, it's not going to fit neatly into a data point, right? It's not going to fit neatly into the cell of a spreadsheet the way that some data will, right? I know, I think I talked about this with Elizabeth and I, when we were researching kindergartens, we would put like audio message links into our spreadsheet.

So we'd have like some of the data points, and then we'd have like, after we did a visit, just like a two-minute, this is the vibe that I picked up from it all, right? And we'd plop it in there, right? So whatever works for you, but just noting that some of this stuff is a little bit more vibey, and that you may have a kind of messy, vibey spreadsheet, and then you're going to have a spreadsheet that's got all the specifics, all the data that you actually, that's a little more concrete. And speaking of, I love that they had a process to process auditions, I think that was specifically one of the tabs of the spreadsheet, or at least I remember Betsy said she wrote it down, I don't remember if she said she put it in the spreadsheet or not, right?

Find your own process, there's no magic singular process, but it is certainly something we talk about at mock auditions a lot, that you should have a process, right? Especially seniors who are listening to this now, you know, what do you need to record the audition, to process it, and then to move on from it emotionally, whether it's about remembering those salient details from months later, whether it's about learning from that game tape mentality, how do you improve as an auditioner, whatever is most important to you, but you want to develop that process the same way you develop a warm-up to psychologically warm yourself up for an audition, you want to have a process to synthesize and process the audition, and think about what do you need.

Okay, and my last big one is just, can we all pretend to be therapist kids and therapist parents in this process, or do our best to imitate a version of this, right? You all know I am a shill for therapy these days, people who've been listening for a couple years, you've heard me talk about it a lot, but whether or not you're in it, I think you should be in it, I do think working toward being the best communicators that you can be in this process is a wholly good and helpful thing. I mean, I love the phrase, you all can steal if you want, that phrase of like, how do you want me to show up in this moment, or tell your parents, hey, this is a great phrase, if you're a kid listening to this, that is like A-plus parent language from a parent to a child.

However, I'll just note, if that feels totally foreign to you, if you're like, it just doesn't sound like me to be like, how do you want me to show up in this moment, then I would say, find your version of it, you know, do your best and forget the rest, as Tony Horton would say. I know I personally will sometimes say that to Elizabeth, who, Elizabeth is a therapist genius, she really is very A-plus at therapy, and she'll often like, tell me the script of what I should have said in a past conversation, and my reaction is like, man, that AI husband sounds amazing, wherever you can find that guy, he sounds awesome, right? Just because like, of course, we are not robots as support systems, whether it's, you know, as partners or as parents, right?

We are not nothing but support for these people, right? And you will never get 100% perfect grade on the way that you offer it. And also, I think, I feel personally, it can sound a little disingenuous, if it doesn't sound like your own language, if you're using a script, it's going to sound like a script, right? So that's why I say like, find your version of like, hey, what would you like me to do in this moment? Or what sounds like your version of that? So that it feels like, hey, I'm trying this thing. But also, if it feels like a foreign script to me, sometimes it can be kind of off-putting, like, where'd you put my mom? How do I show up for you in this moment? Like, that doesn't sound normal for you.

So finding your version, as long as you're finding an improvement on your own, and sort of finding your own way of doing it, I'm all for it. And then some of the stuff in this episode, also, I thought was from Betsy was so great, right? That idea of deeply listening to your kids. I think it's really helpful for parents to hear. You've heard it certainly many times on the show before. It's often advice that colleges will say, hey, listen to your kids, listen to what they want, right? And I will say, for the kids, I've certainly said this before at MTCA meetings, and you've heard some of this on the pod, just that idea of being bold and brave and trying to say what you need, right? Even, and maybe especially for those kids out there, if you don't think your parents are actively opening up that space for you, if they're not actively saying, how do I show up for you in this moment?

It can't hurt for you to answer that question without being asked. It can't hurt to help your parents in how to show up for you if you boldly and bravely proclaim it, even if they don't necessarily, they're the kind of parent who naturally would open up that kind of space. So you, as a kid, saying the version of like, hey, mom, showing up for me this next month would look like this, right? And maybe, again, find your own version of that, like, hey, what I could really use for you was this, right? I know for my dad, especially when it was hard for him to listen to me, and so I would have to say, like, dad, this is really important to me. And he even would be like, hey, that's actually really helpful when you tell me that, when I realize this isn't just something you're asking for, this is really important, right?

So what is your version of that language to communicate of going, this is what I think I need, this is a stressful moment, a stressful process, I think I need you to show up in this way. And then give your parents a chance to surprise you, because I've seen it time and time again with our parents, that our kids go, I couldn't believe what my dad was capable of growth-wise, I couldn't believe what my mom was capable of in terms of how she listened to me and supported me through this process. So give those parents a chance to surprise you, right? But it's only going to happen if you're bold and brave, they can't guess what you're thinking, right? And then, of course, the same way that we talked about the parents, they might not get 100% grade on how they use their language and how they show up in their perfect communication, most of the students likely won't either, right?

You're likely not going to communicate as clearly as Betsy did as a therapist child, right? And that's okay, right? She had that club really firmly in her bag, she had that, hey, mom, stop it with the face, we're in the elevator still, we'll talk about it when we get back to our room, right? She had that club that was just, she was used to swinging, right? So maybe it's not comfy for all of you to sort of speak that out there, that's okay. That doesn't mean you can't take the club out of the bag and give it a swing, though, right? See what it feels like to ask for what you want, and maybe start in small ways, right? Maybe it's, hey, mom, I could really use five minutes alone to decompress right now, right?

It's not about you. Sometimes they need a little taking care of yourself. You're not doing anything wrong, I just need five minutes to myself already, right? Or if it's like, dad, would you mind getting me some water? I really need a snack. Could you mind if we, could you run and grab me a protein bar from the room or whatever it is, right? If you start small and try asking, see what happens, right? But again, instead of being mad at your parents for not being able to guess what you want, right? They're not capable of just guessing what they think you might need. Give them a chance to be on your team, give them a chance to help you out, and I'll bet some of them will surprise you and do it, right?

Again, to the best of your ability in those heightened moments, of course, we're likely not going to all use perfect language or be perfect in the way we communicate, but we can try, right? Okay, and the last thing I'll say, we've joked about it before, that everyone thinks they're in the 1% and that you are not going to be in the 1%. I'll even just say, statistically, for those listening out there, if you're an MTCA student, you're working with us, right? It's not even 1%, right? We put 99 because putting a decimal point feels weird when we talk about an artistic field, so we say 99% of our students, right? But it's a whole lot closer to 99.8 than it is to 99%, right? Many years, we have zero students that don't get into an audition-based program that they're excited about, and some years, maybe it's one, right?

And that's out of many, many students we work with each year, so well more than 100, so you can do the old math yourself, it's a lot more than 99% that are going to get in. So again, don't spend time worrying about the disaster, that is not going to happen to you, because it's not going to happen to you, right? Put that energy into being strategic about what your positive results will be if you work for it, which, if you're strategic in your list planning and do that artistic work, it will be positive for you. These schools need you, that's what's happening in this process, right? That doesn't mean it's not a competitive process, it is, but if you do the process authentically, you're going to find your fit.

You can hold me to that. Okay, let's wrap on another episode of Mapping the College Audition, produced by Kelly Prendergast. Please like and subscribe, rate and review, follow us at Mapping the College Audition on Instagram, and head over to mtca.com for help with your individual college process, so that you too can shoot for the moon and hit it. To my young artists out there mapping their journeys, please trust that you're enough for the right program, exactly as you are, right now. Now keep striving. We'll catch you next week.