This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got my old friend Andrew Hovelson on the pod. For our newer listeners, in these artist exploration episodes, we aim to explore the paths of success that artists have forged, and are still forging in Andrew's case, and tease out how their theatrical training has helped them to blaze that trail. It's been a really fun one for me, as Andrew is really a dear and unique man. Hopefully you'll be able to pick this up in the interview, sort of all the different flavors of his artistry. I think you'll see he has some, you know, some of the competitiveness and drive and intelligence from, you know, if that's from the sports background, or who knows, but you need all those things to kind of make it in this business from a running your own business CEO perspective.

But also, he really has some of that true sensitivity and heart that makes a great artist. And of course, a wonderful sense of humor, too. I mean, this is a great man. I hope you get that all from the interview. I hope you will. I will, for the most part, have us just jump right into this one, because it is a long one. Except to say, I will see a chunk of you listeners at PUA, at Pittsburgh Unifieds, next week as you listen to this. If you're there, I always say, please come up and say hi. Whether or not you're an MTCA student, that's true of Pittsburgh Unifieds or any of the Unifieds, whether or not you're an MTCA student, any of the MTCA representatives, and certainly me, will be happy to hug you and root for you.

And, you know, at PUA, we're really there for you at both these universities. We're there for you, regardless of whether you've done any direct work with us or not. We're here to root you on and help you toward your success. And I'll just say, I'm always really happy, personally, to hear that the podcast is helpful to folks, whatever coaching decisions they might have made. I mean, of course, we want you to work with us. Yes, of course. But if you're not an MTCA student, please come up and give us a hug. And if you are an MTCA student, come up, give us a hug, or a fist bump, or whatever feels appropriate to you in greeting what is a relative stranger to you. But also, I bring PUA up to say to all of our listeners that we're going to do a version of what we did last year when we released that faculty panel speed dating, right?

It was sort of like an episode where you got to meet a ton of colleges at once. So whether or not you're going to be there, you're going to get to hear a live pod version of a recording of a whole bunch of different schools. I'm not even going to say a number since the number isn't finalized yet, but it looks like it's going to be a lot. It's more than last year. And the plan is at least currently to split it up into two different panels, which means we'll release those as two different episodes, right? So just bear with us all in that being a pending plan. We're going to go with the flow of what is actually recorded. But pending that we do record it successfully, we would have back-to-back episodes that we're going to release as those live pod versions of the faculty panels, right?

If not, if something goes wrong for whatever reason, we will pivot. We do have some previously recorded episodes that we can release, so you'll still get your regular episodes. But the plan is to have those two back-to-back in the middle of October, right? And so that'll be kind of a unique schedule with those two bonus episodes, but then we will return to our usually scheduled programming with another acting school in CCM. Acting is coming on the pod. I realized as I was looking at the schedule today, this is a bit of an acting-focused runner we're on here. We just had Juilliard on last episode. Andrew here is that rare non-musical theater-focused Broadway actor, and then CCM acting. So we're going to make sure if that's the bread of the sandwich is a lot of acting stuff, that middle part, we're going to have lots of MT energy on that panel. I'm going to be bringing the MT energy to that panel, if nothing else. So I hope you enjoy those episodes, and I really hope you enjoy this conversation with Andrew Hovelson.

[4:02] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Andrew Hovelson. Andrew has a BFA from the University of Minnesota, Guthrie, and an MFA from NYU, graduate acting. He's been on Broadway—I'm going to say that with my surprising voice—he's been on Broadway four times! Four times, my god, and currently in Stranger Things, where he's starring as Principal Newbie. Also been in Lucky Guy with Tom Hanks, the father, and Enemy of the People. Some awesome off-Broadway stuff, like Mother of the Maid with Glenn Close. He's been in Shakespeare in the Park. Who hasn't? Every TV show that's got a cop related in it, he's been on it. Some cool film stuff as well. Andrew, welcome on the pod. How are you feeling today?

[4:41] Andrew Hovelson: Well, this is the highlight of my week, Charlie, to be spending some time with you here virtually. You would think the highlight would be—

[4:48] Charlie Murphy: With your deep, resonating voice.

[4:51] Andrew Hovelson: I was telling Andrew I'm benefiting from a little bit of a cold right now, so you guys are—this is peak Charlie Murphy voice leadership—listenership, I mean. But you think the highlight of your week would be when we see each other at drop-off. This is the secret thing, is Andrew and I now send our child to the same school.

[5:05] Andrew Hovelson: Well, I have many children, Charlie, but we go to the same school. Yes, we don't see each other enough at drop-off.

[5:13] Charlie Murphy: You're saying I should do more drop-off. You think I'm not being a supportive enough parent and that Elizabeth's doing too many drop-offs.

[5:18] Andrew Hovelson: One thing that I've always told myself is that the kids will know who I am, Charlie.

[5:24] Charlie Murphy: Yes, the other kids at school.

[5:25] Andrew Hovelson: The other kids at school.

[5:27] Charlie Murphy: Well, we started this podcast with a note, and I've spoiled how I really wanted to start the podcast, Andrew, which was to theme you. I was going to label you. I said the theme of this episode is Andrew Hovelson, journeyman actor. How did that land on you? I saw a little reaction when I spoiled it. How do you feel being called a journeyman actor?

[5:48] Andrew Hovelson: It's kind of like being useful. While being a journeyman and being useful can give you a career, it also means that you were never good enough for people to actually think that you could break out. I'll give you a little story. I won't name names. I was in a play with a bunch of fancy people, and the former head of NYU graduate acting came and saw us. There were two people in the show that were from NYU. The head looks at me and goes, Andrew, you were fantastic. It's so fun to see you up there. I had a lot of hair at the time, and I had a huge beard. It's like such a great role. He turns to the other person and he goes, journeyman. You're a journeyman. I could see this other actor's face just turn white and go, there is no place that I would rather not be.

It's so funny. I understood that. I wanted to throw it at you comedically because to see how it would land. I do think it's one of those words that some people could take and wear as a badge of honor. People who are called journeymen, sometimes you use that word of people who've been in a hundred movies, like big movies, but just don't happen to be whatever, Matt Damon, that you go, that's a journeyman actor, but wildly successful. Also, just to be clear, any of our listeners who are 17, 18, 19, 20, you just heard the resume I read. You are wildly successful. You cannot expect statistically to be as successful as Andrew Hovelson if you're a listener on this thing. Four Broadway shows, my gosh.

[7:33] Andrew Hovelson: Charlie, that's very gracious of you. I think also the word journeyman, one of the theaters that I started out with who I owe a lot of my learning of how to be a disciplined working actor and how to think about story and how to think about being a company member, their first step up after a non-union acting contract. I think you could get the next bit of non-union acting. It was called being a journeyman. I was like, what? Come on. You get to hold two spears? To me, and again, we'll stop. I'll get off this word, but I do think it's also a way of saying you did it slowly and sustainably with many bites at the apple. I've had people who right out of school at 23 hit a huge Broadway role. That's what they're known for.

That's all they're thought of for, and then never had another big thing that happened. A journeyman also describes to me you couldn't with just one project label them. They are the whole resume. I was enjoying looking through your resume, being like, my God, he's done so much in this and over here, and look at that. For so many people, they would have been their one highlight, but you have many highlights.

[9:01] Charlie Murphy: I appreciate that. I'm not throwing journeyman under the bus. I think I just have a life experience of that word meaning good luck.

[9:11] Andrew Hovelson: Well, it is like calling someone an NBA role player, which to be an NBA role player, you have to be—

[9:15] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, for me, I'm saying, oh my God, I would love to be an NBA player. Come on. You've got to be in the top 1% of people. That's incredibly hard. Do you know how good all those role players are to be a role player? But yes, you're not LeBron James if you're a role player. Okay. Now, enough calling you a journeyman. Let's take you through, take me through the journey a little bit. I want to hear the origin story of Andrew Hovelson. Of course, after spending time on this resume, I know you grew up milking cows because it's on the special skills that says cow milking. You better believe it. And playing all team sports. I read that. But give me a little bit of you up to Minnesota in terms of that journey, and then we'll talk about Minnesota too.

[9:49] Andrew Hovelson: I grew up in a town of 11, 1200 people. Now, I think it's more like 900 people. I loved it. It was like Varsity Blues. If you remember that movie, we went to state in football, we were state runners up in basketball. I was a role player, playing both of those. All team sports. That's a small school group.

[10:14] Andrew Hovelson: Yeah, all team sports. And then what happened basically kind of through a little bit of luck and a little bit of will and persistence is all of my friends were either going into the military or getting scholarships to play college athletics. That's just how that was.

[10:31] Charlie Murphy: This was like the 1930s.

[10:33] Andrew Hovelson: This was 1824.

[10:36] Charlie Murphy: Got it. Civil War was about to break out.

[10:38] Andrew Hovelson: Yes. And I had done all the plays and I was in speech and debate because I really enjoyed it. But I didn't know you could go to college for it. I had no idea. I had zero idea. And a friend from a different school showed me he was auditioning for college in this place called Juilliard. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. I didn't know you could go to college.

[11:04] Charlie Murphy: We just released our episode with Juilliard this week, if you can believe it. What timing, Andrew?

[11:07] Andrew Hovelson: There we go. And then the next bit of data point was there was a guy who had graduated about 10 to 15 years before me in this little town that I grew up in who went to DePaul Theatre School. And I was like, oh, I guess this is a thing. And then I pretty quickly buckled up to say, well, if I'm not going to go into the military and if I'm not good enough to play athletics in college, I want a thing. I just want a thing.

[11:41] Andrew Hovelson: And this became my thing. And I got really into it. I was at the time, it was called NFAA, but I was a YoungArts award winner. And I emailed Santino Fontana and Matthew Ament and other award winners, Aya Cash. And I said, where are you going to school? What does school process look like? And I just geeked out on it because it was new territory for me. It was fun. There was a little bit of competition. And my parents said, go for it. But we have no idea how to help you. Not only do we have no idea, we're like, we actually can't help you. You just tell us if we need to fly somewhere to visit a school. And then we'll try to support you through the audition. But we don't know how to help you. And you're going to have to teach us.

So I had to learn it all myself. I'm sure I got exceptionally stressed out during that process. And then we fast forward a little bit for your audience here is that I auditioned for seven schools, I believe. I think I have a really good Juilliard story, which I didn't get into, but that's probably the best story. And what happened is I didn't get into the school I wanted to get into, which was Northwestern University, which does not, there's no auditions there. It's just academic related.

[13:06] Andrew Hovelson: And I got into a bunch of schools. I got into busy playing sports. They could be good at the academics. No, I was very good in academics. That's why I'm angry. I'm still angry at Northwestern University Wildcats. It worked out OK. But because you also happen to name, you name some other journeyman there and our good friend Matt Amant. But the, the, you've been nicknamed all Guthrie alum. So how did Guthrie come up on your radar? It would have been a pretty new school when you went.

[13:40] Andrew Hovelson: You Syracuse. Uh, I was wait-listed at DePaul and wait-listed at the University of Minnesota. How Minnesota got on my radar was Kenneth Washington, rest in peace, who, uh, has directed and helped build multiple programs across the country, uh, was building the Guthrie program. And they had only had two classes that had started at that point in time. So I would have been the third and I, quite frankly, didn't get in. And I didn't know why I didn't get in. I didn't know how I didn't get in. I just knew that Scott Freeman, who was the director at the time, and Kenneth Washington said, uh, sorry, buddy, you're, you're wait-listed. I accepted, uh, in, I accepted my offer into Syracuse. I bought my season tickets to Syracuse football.

Uh, and I bought my flights and then three weeks before I was about to leave. Wow. I got a call late call from Washington who said, we've never done this. We also have only been around for two years, right. But we've never done this and we wouldn't normally do this, but Scott Freeman remembers you. And we had somebody decide that they didn't want to come here anymore. And we have a spot if you want to come. And I was, uh, just a little confused at that point because it felt good to be recruited by this new place. Um, but I had also just wrapped my mind around flying across the country. Of course, not just your mind. You wrapped your wallet around it. Yeah. Wrapped my wallet around. So, uh, what I did at that point is I called everyone that I knew and I said, where should I go?

And at that point in time, um, nothing wrong with Syracuse. I have plenty of friends that have wild careers, great careers. They just said, there's something special happening at the Guthrie program. It was also in-state tuition for me. Yeah. So the data points said, head up a couple hours North. Uh, and that's, that's how I, that's how I got there. It's something a lot of our students, I mean, especially at the time, you know, Guthrie probably wouldn't be now, no longer called Guthrie, now called university of Minnesota, but, um, would be, well, even then, Charlie, it was called the university of Minnesota slash Guthrie theater actor training program. And that's what they, that's what they encouraged us to put on our resume.

You're like, that's going to get cut off on the margins or whatever. Um, but you know, now people would think of that as an established program if you're going out there, but really for you, you're making more of the decision of what our kids would make of like, do I go to Oberlin or do I go to one of these ones that are, uh, you know, for that, for musical theater programs, only a couple of years old where it's, Hey, they're building something exciting here where you're sort of betting on the upside of what it will grow to be, but Santino hasn't graduated yet and he's not in frozen. Yeah. You don't, you don't have those like, Ooh, I got some, some alum to hang stuff on you're taking the risk where Syracuse would have already had plenty of successful Aaron Sorkin already graduated and already wrote the West wing and you would have had some of that, you know, uh, so you took the sort of the bet on the upside there.

I did that again at, in, um, in the master's program too, because Zelda had stopped teaching. And I was the first class that Mark Wing Davy picked though, a little bit more of an established, maybe no name in that case, but I want to come back to when you tell me about Guthrie, but I want to not let you pass. You said you have a good Juilliard edition story. So good. You've already given us the first tip I'm taking from this podcast so far is you have to buy, buy plane tickets and season tickets if you want to get off a wait list. That's a good, that's a good tip for anyone's out there. If you buy it for another school, you'll definitely get off a wait list. It's like, you know, if you want to book a job as an actor, just plan a vacation, plan a wedding.

You're definitely going to book a job, but give us your Juilliard edition story. Okay. Juilliard audition story. Um, is I, they, they said, show up in, um, they said, show up in clothes that you can move in. So I showed up in my track sweats and a Minnesota Vikings teacher. And needless to say, that was not the population of kids that were in the waiting room that were dressed up in their, you know, drama blacks and slacks. And I thought, Oh crap, I really actual Viking helmets. Then I've really done this wrong. Um, and so then, so that was the first part of it. Fast forward to, uh, I, I did, I did my first audition of the day and they said, do you get up to the Guthrie a lot to literally like the Guthrie theater to watch, and I just couldn't make anything up.

I didn't know anything about Shakespeare. I got there for a Christmas carol every once in a while. And I said, I said, you know, I've seen a Christmas carol a couple of times and they're like, thanks. And then I left and I was like, Oh, there's no way I'm ever getting called back. And I was the only one from the morning session that got called back to end of day callbacks. So I go to the end of day callbacks and one of the kids, it must be kids that were proctoring pulls me aside and goes, Andrew, you are the only one that they've talked about all day. And I didn't really get in my head about it. I was just like, wow, that's really cool. A kid grew up milking cows who is staying at the YMCA is going to final callbacks and they're talking about me.

And then I go in there and here's the end of the story. As my wife says, land the plane in Lewiston, Minnesota. If you were caught at any party drinking, doing any substances, you could not be on any sports teams or extracurriculars. You not even if you were doing them, if you were caught in the vicinity. So I had never looked at an ounce of foreign substance my entire life until I was 18 and Michael Kahn has me do my Shakespeare monologue and can you just pretend like you're in a bar and, uh, and, and, and you're trying to woo the girl. I had also never had a girlfriend. And so instead of having any sort of first person guttural reaction to this note or saying, you know, Michael, I've never been in a bar and I've never had a girlfriend, which probably would have gotten me into Juilliard.

I just talked louder, took a shot and faster. And in the end they said, thanks. Thanks. See you later. Oh, that's, that's a great story. Yeah. The boy, that is the kind of note. I mean, we got that all the time, but our professor, they say, I'll do it drunk. And I was like, you're asking an 18 year old to do it drunk. Like theoretically, you shouldn't know what that is. That's not a great note. Uh, that's very great story, Andrew, and congratulations on your callback. That's exciting. You know, I'm proud of you. Yeah. I, you know, I think the one thing that I did throughout this process, um, when I got into NYU undergrad as well, um, it was just a lot of money and I got their top scholarship, their top merit based scholarship.

And I just kept asking for more. So one thing I always did is I asked for more. And then the second is like, I was really just myself, but I hate that note. And I, you have probably given that to thousands of students. Um, I think I was myself, uh, through a little bit of naivete. Like I just answered because I didn't know any better. I didn't, I didn't even know what game to win. Yeah. Like, I had no idea what game to win. It's yeah. We, we just were talking about that. I mean, if we talk about that a lot, certainly how do you be yourself as an active choice, because it's not always so easy to be like, just be yourself. And kids are like, what? Like, okay. Like, I think I'm trying to do that.

And, you know, you're sort of talking about trying to work through the places that artifice will show up, which often is going to be nerves are often going to be, yeah, you're given that note of do it like you're drunk and you're like, I can't myself wouldn't know what to do that. So I'm just going to put up some mask of what I think you want, because I don't know how to do that. So it's sort of like, how do you fight through that? But sometimes your point of naivete is a way through, you know, we've told stories and I just, sometimes it's like anger helps people go, like, I screw it. I'm going to do that. But that, or sometimes it's like this, like resignation of, I'm not going to get in here anyway.

So that's really just going to let me release and be myself, but whatever that, that access key that lets you go, let me just actually be real. Charlie really put him out there and see what happens, you know, is so much easier said than done for me and my pieces. I remember, I kind of remember what they were. Um, but I remember like I could, I could get a little emotional, right. And so if you stepped in and you're like, yeah, I play a bunch of sports and then, you know, your eyes well up. Uh, I thought that was really cool. And it probably helped me fast forward to, you know, every self-tape I do now with my wife, she's like, don't cry. Andrew, this guy is a cop. It doesn't work. And I went to cry for that.

I'm proud promise. The blacklist is not hoping you're going to cry. Yeah. I moved to LA and, and the first manager I ever had, he was like, he didn't even know that I was a crier and he goes, whatever you do, just don't cry on camera because it's going to look weak and then I get to grad school. And, uh, Mark Wing Davey goes, Andrew, you have a set of skills. Uh, one is, is, is teariness. Um, be careful because we don't really care. There you go. And, uh, but you know, it got me into some undergrad programs. I love it. Will you jump back and tell me a little bit about the Guthrie experience? I want to talk both about Guthrie and then, um, the NYU of it all. But what, what was the Guthrie experience?

Right. We, we had Aaron Todd Douglas talking a little bit about like curriculum and some of that stuff in terms of what it is now, but for you at the time, what was the experience like? Exciting. Yeah. I like new things. And 25 years later, I continue to, to like that stuff. Right. I've done a ton of new work. Um, I really enjoy the process of this could all blow up in our face or this could be really good. I like that risk. And, and that was the feeling around the Guthrie at this point in time, there were people not really like me. There were people that were like deciding not to go to Juilliard and not to go to Carnegie Mellon, which were really the other, those were the two biggest 25 years ago.

It was like, if you got into one of those two, you've hit the lottery. Sure. I'll just say 25 years ago, these are still, I mean, come on, come on. Aaron, Andrew. Yeah, I know. But there weren't, there weren't as many, there weren't as many programs out. There were good programs. I would have existed back then, but yeah, there weren't as many, but yeah. Um, and they were like, no, Ken Washington called me. I'm here. You know, Scott Freeman is here who they had brought from New York to run the program. So it was very, very exciting. There was the possibility when you graduated of not just working at the Guthrie, but like working in good roles at the Guthrie, also working in good roles at the Guthrie in undergrad while you're in school.

Yeah. Yeah. The, those were huge, huge, huge things. Um, and then it was, it was also challenging because the teachers and the administration were trying to figure out what this thing was. And after my first year, um, they decided that they didn't all align on what this thing was. And so Scott moved back to New York here to start his, his private studio, which is now Freeman studio, you know, one of the best in the, in the city here. And, um, we became very, very, very heavily, uh, annexed towards classical theater. And so when I, when you entered, it was not known already at like, it was, we were going to do both. We were going to do both. It was the, it was the classic Julliard or grad school model.

Yes. Yes. It was, we are going to train you in the classics. And then at the end of our time in these four years, that training is going to help you become an actor who can also make a living in film and television. Yeah. And after my first year, it changed pretty drastically. Joe Dowling was still the artistic director at the Guthrie is that we're going to go all in on classics, classics, classics, classics. And by the time I had graduated, those of us that were a little more ambitious had to really make some. Um, decisions as to what we were going to do after school, um, with our careers, because we had a laundry list in a great way of incredible classical theater. Yes. Um, that was going to be useful for American players theater, where I worked, uh, Utah Shakespeare theater, you know, it was going to be useful for Oregon, it was going to be useful for some of the Guthrie, um, but we had no experience in, in what you were going to do in LA or New York.

Totally. Well, I mean, that's, I really am joking about the journeyman idea, but so many of the friends I know who've gone to the Guthrie program, their first steps feel like they were in that place, whether it's, yes, I'm going to go to Oregon or I'm going to join the acting company. And like, there aren't that many different opportunities to like tour America, doing classical shows, at least in a way that pays you or whatever. Like some of those like things that you were able to do right out of school, that, that wasn't, there weren't a lot of schools that.

[27:21] Andrew Hovelson: Offering easy access into that world that model of how to kind of grow a career. Yeah. So what they did is that they said you're going to, they meaning the Guthrie said, you are going to be prepared to be extremely useful. There is another word, journeyman useful in these class, in these companies, in these rep companies. Yeah. Right. And we were. We were. There were training Broadway swings. This is a very specific thing that we need a lot of. You need a really hard skill set. And most people, if you just graduate from school and you haven't studied Shakespeare, most people are not ready to step in and do that. It is a specific useful skill set to be young and good at Shakespeare is. And I don't know what happens now, but during that time, even when Scott was there, you know, if he would have been there all four years, the last two to three would have looked different.

Yeah. But they were they were very, very set on. We do not do any showcases. Yeah. You we will fly the people that are willing to fly in to see your new works and then some scenes. But there will be no traveling to L.A. or New York because it's not useful. I have certain opinions about that, but that was the culture there. And, you know, culture and it definitely leads into a higher percentage of those grads working in Minnesota, working in Chicago. We're working more Midwestern as opposed to many of them then still will go to a New York or to, you know, to L.A. eventually, but a higher percentage in some other schools at that level where they're going to be. So my yeah, my graduating class, Charlie, and for the parents out here and the kids who are like, well, what do you do after you go to the Guthrie?

Well, my graduating class was the class who started Backroom Shakespeare Project in Chicago. So we had like five, seven people moved to Chicago and they created an incredible community. Yeah. We also Rebecca Heard is a Guthrie graduate. She is on Stranger Things with me now. And so, you know, it's not like just the first of our classes out there are on Broadway or in L.A. But you just had to make your mental jump was quite a bit different.

[29:34] Charlie Murphy: Well, that may lead me right into this next question, which you have to remind me. So I didn't say this at the top, but of course, we work together at Chautauqua many months. We did so beautifully. Were you already in grad school then? Are you between things?

[29:46] Andrew Hovelson: So the story of my career, or at least part of the story that I choose to tell myself, is being waitlisted. Right. Or being right on the outskirts. And I had auditioned for Chautauqua like four times. And Ethan McSweeney, who was there and Viv and Ash, they were always like, we love you, but we don't have a spot. Yeah, we love you. We don't have a spot yet. I graduated and I came back. I built a theater company in Minneapolis and I came back and I said, I still want to go to Chautauqua. I still do it. Yeah. And so I auditioned again and they were like, are you still in school? I was like, no, I'm not in school. But I know you guys have some master's program. And I think that story of like, oh, Andrew still wants to be here.

I don't know whether I was good enough that summer as opposed to the previous three summers. I just think there was a little bit of an outlier factor. So I had graduated already. Right. I was there with you, Gabriel Ebert, our great friend was there as well. But not yet looking at grad school options. There was some time before you go.

[30:53] Charlie Murphy: No. Yeah. I mean, we could I could talk about that forever. But Bryce Pinkham was there. Alex Worf was with us. And these guys were all in grad school. Yeah. And I thought they were very talented. Yeah. I thought we were also talented. Yes. But then they were talking about the opportunities of people and industry that was coming through those schools. Yes. And that's when I thought. You know what, I might I might want to go back to grad school just for the networking.

[31:23] Andrew Hovelson: So that is exactly the next question I have. Yes, because I think, yeah, if you're sitting here, should talk with, you know, certainly I think there's a different maturity level to Bryce Pinkham than to me and Gabe and the 19 year old fools. And you were, I guess, in your early 20s. But certainly in terms of the training, we were all doing pretty similar training. The training is different. So I would love you to sort of push back. Add to. I certainly have said on the podcast before. Hey, I don't tend to recommend getting a BFA in acting from a good school and then getting an MFA in acting. Right. I don't recommend being Andrew Hubbelson, the journeyman. I didn't say that. But I was like, in general, I'd like you'd want to have a good reason, given how, to me, similar the training is.

And you're going to do some things that are, you know, you may be more mature that you could say, depending on the BFA, could some of the MFA stuff be at a higher level, though? Not always. You're talking about Juilliard. It is the exact same training for those 19 year olds as for the 28 year olds or whatever. But it sounds like the answer for you is more about networking was the reason that you go, hey, I want a New York network, a New York based or L.A. based network was the reason to go back to grad school for you.

[32:29] Andrew Hovelson: Yep. There were two very, very specific reasons. Number one is the networking. I had actually moved out to L.A. and I had been pretty successful in L.A., but I really wasn't getting in the rooms that I wanted to. And I wasn't getting in the doors. And I was the first person from the Guthrie that had moved out to L.A. So it was just going to be harder. It was going to be more of an uphill climb. So that is networking. And the second is, quite frankly, I just really like school, being in school. Like, I just love it. It's like, I want to go back and take this class. I want to. I've thought about it again. Yeah, I've thought about like, well, what program would accept me if I just go back again?

Yeah. You know, I want to go back to acting school. Yeah. So my family is all in the sciences and in their sciences. They have their the terminal degree in their field is what I heard growing up. You know, if you're a veterinarian, you're a doctor of veterinary medicine. Yeah. Right. If you're a nurse at the time, you had your master's. And I thought that would be pretty cool to say in your life. You know that we don't control our results in acting, but that I've got all the degrees I can to be a performer. So terminal degree of acting. Well, I'm not a doctor of acting. I'm a master of acting. I mean, we've got to find one more school that'll take you. And you can be a doctor of acting. There's a way that we do have some professors on the show who have been PhDs somehow related into acting.

It's not exactly acting, but, you know, you can do it. So it was networking and it was that I love school and then how I kind of package that. And I just tell anyone that wants to hear in a short little sound bit is that it was steroids for my career. I just knew that I stayed in L.A. for 10 years. I could probably get to the same place that if I went to a school for three years. But you felt an ejection three years.

[34:23] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 100 percent. Well, and then so talk to me about the grad experience. So was it very similar? I mean, obviously not identical classes, but in terms of, you know, the experience of what classes you took in terms of what was overlap. And then what was the experience of some of these things that you may be taking for a second time or taking from a different perspective as an older actor? What was the experience of going to grad school, having already gotten the BFA?

[34:44] Andrew Hovelson: Yeah. So the positives were NYU at the time, which it's still usually it's part of the culture there is that it cares really about who you are. It wants you to be your authentic self as an artist. And that is the culture of NYU graduate acting. And that was not the culture of the Guthrie program. It was become a great Shakespearean actor. And then you figure out where you want your career to go after that. Yeah. So that was different. That was different. The voice classes that we did over and over where I was like, I've done all of these exercises. But you're taking it later again. You're like, I've done this again. Done that. Done that again. In. Yeah. Geez. Oh, my gosh. There was a great vocal teacher there.

His name is Scott Miller. He's still a dear friend of mine who had a very different approach on how we use our voice and our body to to just actually be useful in a career. And and. That was different, what else was different? The there were more gurus, right, if you want to use that term at NYU because it had been around for a longer time, and so some of the wisdoms that they dropped were like they were fuller because they just had more experience.

[36:13] Charlie Murphy: And did you find yourself like to me, like I now, you know, the things they say about King Lear, like every time you see it, you see yourself as a different role in it as you go through the ages. I'm finding that with like I'm reading a book called Grit is not as an old as an old book. But, you know, I'm like, oh, my God, this is a book about parenting. And then I'm like, how many of these books have actually been about parenting? But I've been viewing them from the child's perspective. But now I'm like, oh, it's I'm taking that. So how did you did you view some of these same acting concepts differently now being a man as opposed to a teenager?

[36:44] Andrew Hovelson: Yes, I knew why I was going to school and it was slightly easier for me to filter out what was going to be useful for me when I graduated and what wasn't right. Meaning like what was applicable to the book, a job that's going to affect the way I actually book jobs. This is going to help me get that turn on the waterworks for your teary eyed audition or whatever. Or when I come into the scene study class. Right. Yeah, I would love to play the other role. But the reality is, is nobody's going to cast me in three years in the other role. So, Andrew, just, you know, play Brutus really well and figure out how to play Brutus exceptionally well. Yeah. Right. Rather than wanting to play Sina or something like that. Andrew Eggecheek or something. No, don't give yourself Brutus. Yeah. Like, come on, Brutus. What do you think?

[37:40] Andrew Hovelson: And then and then another thing was that I had my I got married and had my first kid before my third year of graduate school. Yes. And so it changed. Graduate school changed me as a person. I would like to think for the better. That's up to those around me, you know, my wife and kids. But I would like to think for the better. And it made me more of an authentic artist. But I'm not sure that the clown classes were any different than I did in undergrad. I'm not sure that the voice and speech classes were any different. The scene study classes are the same scenes that you probably had less circus stuff in NYU than you did in in Guthrie. Were you guys already doing weird tricks and things?

[38:25] Charlie Murphy: We were doing weird tricks and things at the Guthrie. I don't remember the teachers there. I do remember Wayne Wilson left to become a he left to become a clown and Cirque du Soleil. And now he creates all of their shows.

[38:40] Andrew Hovelson: Well, that was at NYU when I go for you. Yeah. But and NYU, when I got there, they had hubby Burgess, who had started the Juilliard and NYU graduate training programs. And we did a lot of clown the first year. Yeah. But they did have stuff like they had stuff and then I'll let you ask your next question, Charlie. But they had stuff like Universe Project, right, which you had to tell the story of your life in a in a theatrical project. And they had like free play, which you had to create your own work. And I wasn't as skilled at that because that was not trained in undergrad. And so that was probably useful for me to be exposed to as a young man instead of a kid. Generative thing.

[39:34] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I want to you hit on what we're talking about after the break. So about sort of building sustainable life. So I'm going to save that. But I want to make sure before we get to the break, just to give me a little bit of why you wanted to go to Chicago so much, not specifically that program. But I think maybe interesting for our listeners, you know, more of our like musical theater focused listeners are going to have an understanding of like, oh, maybe during school I do summer stock, like meaning like audition for the Muni and play small roles or whatever. But even just like what this, you know, we can talk about Chicago specifically, but kind of what that thing that I guess we all were auditioning for at the time is like Apprentice Company, whether it's Williamstown and Chautauqua, all these different things where it's like, you know, you're you're doing this kind of sort of training and this kind of sort of performing thing that's happening normally during school, at least nominally during school, though you weren't during school. But tell me a little bit about that. What was exciting about the experience, what you got from that?

[40:27] Andrew Hovelson: It was really simple. I was so driven. I was so driven that whatever resources were ahead of me or were available to us, I wanted to be a part of what was perceived as the best. And Chautauqua at that time was the most prestigious thing to do during the summer. Yeah. And I thought, well, I don't know. Am I going to go back to painting propane tanks, milking cows? I sure I can. Yeah. Do I want to go do community theater somewhere?

[41:02] Andrew Hovelson: I mean, of course I can, but I'm actually not sure that that helps my career. I think playing a couple of small roles, which I did in Chautauqua, is actually going to be more useful on a resume. And Charlie, I am nothing, if not yearning for community, and I just wanted to be a part of the club. Yeah, I really did. I just wanted to say I went to Chautauqua and I wanted to check that off the list. Yeah. And when I got there, I was I was I'm glad I did that for the summer.

[41:37] Charlie Murphy: Me, too. It's it's an interesting it's, you know, again, if you're new to people, it's an interesting and different kind of when you say community, it is a community. I mean, I still play in a fantasy football league with some of those guys. I've had you're my fourth Chautauqua on the podcast. I'm like, it's like we stay in contact is really, you know, from 20 years ago. I mean, you have built this incredible business. You're also an incredible actor.

[42:00] Andrew Hovelson: Oh, my gosh. Brian, I was there. Blake Delong, who has a phenomenal career. Alex Morph. Yep. Bryce. You mentioned Bryce Gabe. Yep. Gabe. That was just that is like a one class just our year. That's insanity. I just saw Kate in Oregon. She's still she's playing leads in Oregon Shakespeare. Right. Yes. Is incredible. I mean, the hit rate at Chautauqua is is like is so far better than the hit rate at any program. When you have to get to go to all the programs and pick cherry pick who they want to sort of its own, you know, a lead of a lead thing. Yeah, it's really cool.

[42:36] Charlie Murphy: OK, I have to ask you just while we're then I'll move off Chautauqua because I asked Bryce this, too, on his episode. Do you remember the moment with Alex Morph when we were doing Much Ado About Nothing? And were you on stage for when the whole crowd, the whole stage broke? That's still like one of my favorite moments on stage of any time.

[42:54] Andrew Hovelson: Listen, he broke the crap. Those two playing Dogberry and Sexton was quite possibly one of the it was it's I still remember it being one of the most funny things that I've ever seen. And I remember a deep sense of jealousy going. How I lived in it was. Yeah. How lived. Yeah. Do you remember when they did their mini universe project outside? They were just doing a moment in training. Yeah. And Bryce just played Sexton where he couldn't see. No, it is like it's like being on a basketball court with, you know, an NBA athlete, you go, oh, there's a way of moving differently, like just at a different. It's just that little level where you go, you're just you're so in your body. I didn't know. Is that possible to be in your body at that much?

I don't think I've ever been in my body that much. I was I was trying that summer so hard to be good. Yeah. And they were just. Brilliant. Yeah. And they were not trying. And that moment on stage, I was almost like weeping because I thought, I don't know, I don't know how to do that. Yeah. And that there was such a freedom. Yeah. There was such a joy.

[44:05] Andrew Hovelson: Yeah. And there was such a we don't know when this is going to end. Yeah, this might possibly go on. This could be a forever. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. But that feels like it's sort of the thing we reach for in theater is to like there's something that can touch us in a in a group of people sitting in a theater that is different than the experience of watching a movie, which is different, which no one itself has. It's a community to sitting and watching a movie, but it's different than staring at your phone to observing content. Like there's a different thing. I feel like that's what we're reaching for is like to get to be in some of those moments where 200 people are like, if you were there that day, you know what that was like and what that experience was.

[44:42] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. And you just you just saw that little twinkle in Alex Morph's eye of like, we're going to get in some trouble.

[44:49] Andrew Hovelson: Yeah. Yeah. And and Bryce, you're going to have to follow me through this. Good luck.

[44:54] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Good luck. It's like the easy thing instead of saying I've got your back. It's like, watch your back.

[44:59] Andrew Hovelson: It was it had that was like, watch your back. I'm coming for you. We're going to be it's going to be tough.

[45:04] Charlie Murphy: All right. We got to take a break because we got to talk about life in the business as well. So we're back in a flash after some ads.

[45:10] Charlie Murphy: OK, we are back with the hilarious and wonderful Andrew Hovelson. You see, I added some little adjectives for you there because that's how good the first half of the interview was. We'll see if we can keep it going. We're going to dive a bit deeper into your career. But now moving off of the journeyman label, I want to move on to the like. Making a life in the theater label, right? You joke in your resume, you're best known for raising three kids in bunk beds in Manhattan. I mean, in Manhattan Plaza is why, you know, not to give your address, we can bleep that out, I guess, because you're living the actor's dream. And that's what people want. It's like, how do we like we have affordable housing?

We are finding a way to, you know, make a race. Three kids in Midtown, New York, which is just like, I think many people, if you're not from New York, to be like, do you know how hard that is? You know, hard is to have three kids and make it work and be known at the school and all those kind of things. So I love to hear a little bit of like now, maybe post NYU, especially as we get into your career and some of the exciting things that you've done, like. I want to hear the specifics of the shows and we'll get we talk stories, we talk whatever, but but like from a holistic perspective, like how have you done it? I mean, I imagine there must be some saving in lean times and you're saving it fruitful moments and then parsing it out over lean times.

But, you know, the idea of raising supporting five people in a family on an actor's salary. Unbelievable. And I know you've done other things, too. So I want to hear about how did you make it all work?

[46:36] Andrew Hovelson: Yeah. So I will let you, Charlie, kind of navigate us through this because I could talk for 17 years on this subject. And I've addressed it in a bunch of other podcasts.

[46:47] Charlie Murphy: Well, no one's been with another podcast like you, but I'm not going to go with another. That was the dumbest thing I've ever said. If they're coming here, maybe they've already listened. Maybe that out, Charlie, on the ones that have already asked me. Kelly, keep it in. Keep it in.

[47:07] Andrew Hovelson: Here's two of the best things that ever happened to my wife and I. Number one is we had a kid. Our first kid, our kid, he happens to be our son before my third year of grad school. And so we had no choice but to make some very, very, very difficult decisions on what life was going to be like when we graduated. And that focus gives you clarity and how to say yes to things and how to say no to things. Yeah. So that's number one. And then number two is we're very, very, very close with our families that are mostly from Minnesota and Wisconsin. OK. But none of them live in New York. Yeah. And none of them live in New York City. Yeah. And while many of them are artistic, none of them have pursued a life in the arts.

Yeah. So what that did is it allowed us freedom to just make things up. Yeah. Because if we were back home, even if I had stayed in Minneapolis, it's probably like, what does it look like? What are my cousins doing? You know, what's brother or sister doing? Oh, I should get the house. I shouldn't get the house. And my wife and I were like, well, I don't we don't know how to do this. So I grew up like that. Let's just yeah, I lived with a 92 year old man all through grad school. He was my best friend. His name is Angelo Ligotti. We used to go to the movies together. He used to volunteer at an old folks home answering phones at 92. And then my wife and our first son, Maverick, moved in there as well. And we lived there for two years with him. That's everyone says don't do. And I thought, wait, I'm paying five hundred and sixty five dollars a month. Yeah, this is perfect.

[48:55] Andrew Hovelson: And then he passed away. They sold the apartment. And I called everyone that I knew with a little bit of money and said we should buy it. Needless to say, that didn't happen. So then we moved in kind of what I would say reverse Raisin in the Sun. We were the first white family in our apartment building in Inwood. Or it wasn't even in what it was in Washington Heights. Right off of Arden and Nagel. And I said, April, April, this is we're going to be priced out of this pretty quickly. The fact that we look like what we look like means that there is people that are actually have careers that can't pay to live in New York either. And they're going to find this place. And four years later, our rent had quadrupled.

And my wife is smart enough and and genius enough to have bought a house when she was 16 in Springbury, Wisconsin, that we were renting out little house. But we sold that and we were looking to buy like an HDFC sort of thing. And Manhattan Plaza called. And so that's truncating a lot of things. But when Manhattan Plaza called crazy story with that, too, of getting into Manhattan Plaza. But we basically moved our whole family into a one bedroom apartment and said, if we're going to be in New York, what I understand is that this is the place to live because your rent can go up and down. Also, because you're close to where people can work. Also, if you're going to raise a family, they have a park here that's very safe that only residents can get in.

[50:33] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[50:34] Andrew Hovelson: And so somehow I was able to persuade my wife. But really, much more than that, she is an amazing mom and kind of had the foresight to go. Yeah, this is going to suck for a while. But this is the this is the right place to be more than that. My wife said, you know, she she just probably had the foresight to say this is probably the right place to raise our kids. If if we're going to be in New York, if the proposal is at this point, three kids, two kids at that point. And then we had our third.

[51:05] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[51:06] Andrew Hovelson: So are you putting up a partition or are you just.

[51:07] Charlie Murphy: No. So we and we still have it. We had a Murphy bed.

[51:11] Andrew Hovelson: Yeah.

[51:14] Andrew Hovelson: And we put it in our living room. And, you know, my wife and I always I was like, we should get the room. I didn't really raise my voice. I was she's like, Andrew, we have children. The children are going to get the room. We'll be just fine in the Murphy bed. And what I can remember. So this is the living situation, Charlie. And then I can tell you about financially how we've done it. But what I remember is really co-starring with Glenn Close. There was like three of us that had really good parts. And I would come home from the public theater just on a high. Like I thought my career was, you know, going to the moon after that. It was look at it. Yeah. Well, it's gone somewhere. It's maybe it's gone on a plane pretty high.

But I thought it was going to the moon. And I would open up the door to our one bedroom apartment. And literally two feet to my right. Our Murphy bed would be down. April would be sleeping in a living room. Our two sons would be sleeping in bunk beds in the bedroom. And then our newest son, Tiger, would be in a pack and play at the end of the Murphy bed in our living room. And I thought every night I thought, wow, this is really humbling. It's really you come on. I'm a star with Glenn Close. I'm feeling so good. I want to go get a drink and like, oh, no, this is my life. Yeah, correct.

[52:30] Andrew Hovelson: But what was really good about that is that April and I always wanted kids. I mean, we wanted five and we just weren't going to wait. That's if you rewind to having Maverick in our third year of grad school. We weren't going to wait until a career happened or didn't happen when we had the first one. We were just like, well, I guess now this is what we do. Like a life in the arts is hard enough anyways. It's not going to get less hard. Yeah. With three kids, it's going to get more complicated. But we felt pretty confident that we could navigate that.

[53:07] Charlie Murphy: And I really wonder, you know, I've now been reading a lot of stoicism, Andrew, no need to pass up on the back. But you sort of in that idea of like the obstacle is the way it's like I do kind of wonder, like, did having a kid help you build your career?

[53:20] Andrew Hovelson: Like, yes, I think I'm so much more efficient now with so much less ability. Like it would have been so much easier to I could do so much more now if you took the kid away. But I'm like, I never would have gotten to that point if I didn't have to because of all I was holding on to.

[53:33] Andrew Hovelson: Not only that, Charlie. This is very this is very clear to me and important to your listeners. Also, not to just have kids young. But I, Heidi Griffiths, who is the casting director at the Public Theater, right, called me into two specific projects. One was I did Shakespeare in the Park right out of school or right out of NYU, I should say. And then another one was for Ruben Santiago Hudson's Your Blues Ain't Sweet Like Mine, which we did at Two River. Those two specific projects. We talked about me being a dad. Mm hmm. In the audition room. Mm hmm. OK. And I have zero doubt that those made the directors and the producing team go. Wow. Mm hmm. This guy has some more life experience than the normal 27 to 32 year old actor that we call it. Yeah. And and that was very good early in my career. Mm hmm. Then there was a part of my career where I was a flavor of the month here.

[54:43] Andrew Hovelson: And it became exceptionally difficult to have three kids because I had to figure out how to pay for them. This was before SAG-AFTRA had said you could only send people, you know, two to seven pages of auditions. I would get 14 to 20 pages for the new movie. And I just thought, I don't know how to prepare. And I actually couldn't prepare. And my auditions during that time were not very good. There is a physical limit where the obstacle is the obstacle. That is just, it's not, there's only so many hours of the day. I mean, with very young kids and sleep and, you know, something's going to sacrifice between the two parents. But, you know, the beautiful thing about a life in the arts to your point of your 92-year-old friend who, you know, was sort of young at heart.

I mean, you see these amazing people who stay young because they don't have obligations and family and navigate the career that way. There is something interesting about like what it is to lay down those roots and what the roots force and define for you. You know, in the same way, I think many of our listeners are going to, they do this amazing process while they're in high school. It's like, how are you doing 20 schools of auditions while you're also going to school? It's crazy. But it's almost sometimes harder when you're like doing a gap year and you have no time, nothing restricting your time. And you're like, I can do whatever I want. It's like, that's almost too much freedom. Sometimes having structure and being like, these are the two hours I can coach.

I'm gonna make this happen actually is freeing for people and helpful. For me, structure has been an important part of my life. Yeah. Probably much to my family's dismay, but I like structure. I mean, I've always had a second job or built a second business.

[56:24] Charlie Murphy: Well, talk to me about that. So again, imagining they can sort of imagine some of the, oh, I was making Tom Hanks money and then I was making no money. And then they can imagine some of the, there's probably some savings involved. We don't need to go deep into like financial planning, but what was the, um, how did you sustain during those lean times when acting wasn't happening or when acting wasn't paying the full bills?

[56:41] Andrew Hovelson: I mean, the thing that went on, I was really like, you can have a job, but if it's not a TV job or a Broadway job, it may not be paying the bills for three kids. I'll give you three stories to illuminate this and, uh, I'll make a couple short, right? So your listeners don't roll their eyes. Uh, number one, listen to many podcasts of you, Andrew, this is not, this is your seven podcasts.

[57:01] Charlie Murphy: Oh, Charlie, they're not rolling their eyes. Come on.

[57:03] Andrew Hovelson: So, so out of graduate school, um, I did a, I did Shakespeare in the park and then I was a reader and I was, uh, going through Sushi Samba's, uh, um, waiter training program and about ready to start. And I got a call to do my first Broadway show. So I left training and I was like, guys, I'm going to be on Broadway. Fast forward to after that, I did an off-Broadway show. So I worked nonstop basically for the first nine months and I had $63 in my bank account after agents, managers, fees, and, uh, taxes here in New York. But now we're talking about Broadway money. Is that meaning, okay, you were spending frivolously or were you spending your signing bonus? How, how does that happen that you end up with $63 in your bank?

[57:56] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. So, so Broadway light at that point in time, which is the nonprofit theaters here on Broadway, MTC paid $1,300 a week. Yeah. 20% of that goes to agents, managers. Uh, you also have to pay $3,000 to get in the union, your, your initiation fees, right. And then taxes. And so I was bringing home about $400 a week, maybe a little bit more. And rent was a thousand bucks for Broadway. And rent was, uh, at that point, rent was like, you know, a thousand, 1500 bucks. Um, and then you're off-Broadway is half that. Right. And you're paying taxes as if you're going to make that all year too. So some of that, you may get back at the end of the year, but for that first moment, you're like, oh my gosh, it's really, they're taking, they're taking this as if I make a hundred thousand dollars.

I'm not going to make all this if this doesn't live. Yeah. So I have $62 in my bank account sometime in January. Um, I get it. It was 63 minutes ago. So 63, you're shading a dollar. Each time you tell the story, I get a call, uh, that says, Hey, George C. Wolf remembers you. Uh, they have an extra role that they've built into lucky guy. And, uh, can you get to the show on Saturday for rehearsal? So that's a yes. All of a sudden I'm making Broadway production money, which at that point in time, which was, it was really good. It still is pretty good. It was like $3,200 a week. Yeah. Right. And I had, uh, asked my manager to no longer represent me because he was just taking 10% for, uh, yeah. And he was not, he was, he was a different, uh, different breed of a person at that point. And then I ended that. And then I went to work overnight at Apple Fifth Avenue, like, because I had some money, but I remember the feeling you remember the $62.

[59:45] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. So right away, literally right after we closed lucky guy, I went and worked 8 PM to 7 AM for the next six months to a year. I don't quite remember at Apple Fifth Avenue selling computers. And then you're sleeping while your kids are in school. I mean, how's that?

[1:00:03] Andrew Hovelson: Well, my kids weren't in school at the time. Um, what I would do is I would try to get the first audition in the morning. So I would get home. No, I would rent out, uh, a room at like Chelsea studios and sleep on the floor for an hour or two on the hardwood floor. And this is the stories people have to understand, because like, that's not shocking to me, even though it is like, it's shocking to anyone to be like, wait, you would rent a room so you could pay to sleep for now. I paid 20 bucks to pay to sleep for an hour, 40 bucks to sleep for two hours. Yeah. And then take the first audition of the day. Yeah. And, uh, that happened for a year or two. And then I would go home and sleep after.

[1:00:47] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Afterwards. I know my friend Patrick uses anything at a law firm. He used to work the overnight at a law firm and do the exact same thing. That's a crazy, but that's the thing of actor's life. All right. Keep going.

[1:00:55] Andrew Hovelson: Yeah. Great. Was that one of your stories? You have two more stories?

[1:00:58] Andrew Hovelson: No. So that was, that was one. Uh, and then the next one is COVID, you know, I had, we all have a COVID story, but my career was going great. Yeah. Like we, there were some really prestigious things on my resume and the world shut down. Yeah. And I thought, I don't know that the world is going to open back up anytime soon. And people that were far smarter than me told me that I was like, we're going to be back in three months. They're like, we're not gonna be back in three months. So I took that opportunity, um, to go really try to change my family's, um, just financial future. Yeah. Right. And so I helped build a coaching company for teens and young adults, uh, building life skills. Uh, and we managed to do that.

And, um, I did that for a while. Uh, that's the last, that was very laid you into that. Like, what, what, uh, you know, from this podcast, I wouldn't think anyone would take advice from you in terms of your ability to live your life. What, what did you feel as a human? Like, was there any training you had done? Was it like, how did you be like, Hey, I think I have some insight into, I mean, I mean that first part joke, but like, I do think students don't always, if they're going to say, I'm going to start a whatever business, like, don't always be like, what gives me the right? Or what, why, what have I done that would make me able to do that?

[1:02:25] Andrew Hovelson: My wife and I had one of the largest, I don't know. Successful is like a weird word. One of the largest afterschool enrichment companies in Manhattan and Brooklyn for between like 2017 and 2020.

[1:02:38] Charlie Murphy: I mean, you run it.

[1:02:39] Andrew Hovelson: Yeah, we ran it. Yeah. We were, we were franchisors. We've read the lead. My God. Yeah. And, and it was a tough business, right? Because when your kids get out of school, that's when all the phone calls start coming in for afterschool activities and fires that you need to put out. So we had some, we had some experience in youth education. Yeah. Right. And I love mentorship and I just, I've, I've just always loved it. It's like a passion of mine that I think no matter what I do, I probably will believe that the kids are the future. Yeah. Right. And that the only reason they get screwed up is that we screwed them up. So, okay. That's two stories. Give me the third, third story. We're going to have to rewind a bit.

This is a very common story, but it's probably good for, for kids and parents to listen to. Before 2020, the last three or four TV shows that I was on, I was bartending. So I bartended for a long time. People were like, yeah, you're an actor. Yeah. Yeah. You're an actor. Oh yeah. What are you in? Well, I'm going to be in, you know, this episode of Blue Bloods tonight. Oh yeah. Right. Okay. I'd be like, it's going to be on the TV. And it wasn't soul sucking for me. I just thought, dang, this is really how this works. Like I might, I'm on Blue Bloods and we're going to show it at the bar. Yeah. But I have two or three kids at home. I still have to bartend. That Blue Bloods episode ain't lasted me a year.

That Blue Bloods episode is two days of filming, three days, maybe four. I mean, if you're a big guest star, maybe it's a week of filming, but it's, I mean, it's not like, you know, if you do three or four of those in a year, that's pretty good and it's decent money, but that's still, you know, there's a lot of other time for you. You know, my parents are back in our small town, like, hey, we're having a watch party and it's going to be awesome. There's going to be popcorn. What are you doing tonight? I'll be pouring some whiskey. Just pouring beers. Yeah. And the bar's going to be too loud. I'm not going to be able to even hear it. And I don't know that I have enough money to record it. So if one of you guys could like record it somewhere and send me. I would really appreciate that. Because Amazon Prime Video is, it's a little expensive right now.

[1:05:00] Charlie Murphy: What about, so you mentioned the manager from LA who was telling you not to cry in your auditions. You have now booked many guest stars. I'm just joking about every cop show, but really that's a pretty successful career of doing this. Any tips or tricks or, you know, Elizabeth's Tomorrow is about to shoot Ellsbeth after I think actually 16 auditions. I think I have now read an entire Ellsbeth episode. I'm ready to play as a reader. But like, what did you do that worked? What did you find that didn't work as, you know, in terms of those booking of those guest stars or doing the guest stars? Any big tips or tricks from all those experiences?

[1:05:30] Andrew Hovelson: Biggest tip that I learned was, I heard Corey Stoll, who's an NYU grad, has an amazing career. Bald like you, so you get to.

[1:05:39] Charlie Murphy: No, this bald thing is about four years old and it's really helping, to be honest with you, Charlie.

[1:05:44] Andrew Hovelson: It's good. You look great. It's, look is 90% of it, right. But then Corey said one time, he said, you know, the hardest thing ever to do is, is these guest stars. And what I realized is, oh, good. I think that they're easy for all these people to do that work way more in TV and film than I do. But they're responsible for the exposition and the emotion in the scene. They're responsible for the whole scene. Okay. And, and everything moves too fast. So once I, once I released myself from the expectation of having to be a good actor in these things, right. I took some classes, tried to study a little bit of like, how do you win the game? Meaning what is useful in these scenes? Yeah. Right. And there has to be a turn of the scene, especially in, you know, 22 to 48 minutes.

There's a reason that each scene is written, right. You got to figure that out. And then I benefited quite a bit from being in the rooms with casting directors. I probably should do that more. Right. When those opportunities arise, but the self tape was very useful to just watch what I thought was good, and what was actually good. And just watch those over and over. And then I'm pretty, I'm pretty ruthless with this, Charlie, when I see a friend, get a role. I asked if they'll send me their tape for that.

[1:07:17] Charlie Murphy: Smart, very smart. Get that game mentality. And one of two things happen. One, I go, Oh, great. I learned something from that. I that's actually really good. Or what happens, Charlie is I go, that tape was dog crap. I love that. And then I go, and then I go, Oh, that's really freeing. He got that or she got that with that tape. My tape was way better, or it was not better or on another thing was better. Just stop worrying so much, Andrew, because it doesn't have to do with how good your tape is. I think that that that advice, it seems so silly. I mean, because, of course, to a 17-year-old listener, it's probably you're not quite ready for this advice. But for the 22-year-olds out of school, the idea that like they're except they're going to give the job to the person who has the best tape is just not true.

That's not like what they're looking for. They're not like going, Hey, I hope I find the best actor to play this guest star in this moment. Like that's just not in that's not one of the things they're considering. They assume these actors are good for the most part. You can't be terrible as an actor. But so often it is. Do you match the tone of the show? Do you match that? And are you what we're looking for in this moment? But I love that when you give the example of like, because you're responsible for.

[1:08:54] Andrew Hovelson: Care if the best audition right is going to be who they want on set, right? They don't, well, this is the best audition, but we got to move pretty quickly. The weekend is coming up. This guy's got, you know, 30 different guest spots and he's worked with one of our producers. Yeah, we don't even have time to call that producer. We're just gonna give him the role. Yeah, because he's not gonna screw up our day Tuesday afternoon. Yeah, it's gonna be good enough. It's gonna keep it going and this is not what this is all about. It's like not going to be good enough. Yes, that is freeing to be like it's not about, it's not, it's not about I have to be the best audition they've ever seen. I hopefully people hear that and think that's freeing because I certainly think that's true.

And sometimes it is about, especially on TV and film, sometimes you go, actually the auditions where you do a little less sometimes do work out better. Where it just feels like, hey, that was just you talking as opposed to like, well, you were really acting on that one. You really showed me a lot of dialect or something different. I did a TV show where I got, I did a role over a Zoom audition. I got called back for a separate role. The role had a lot of action in it and yelling and the casting director said to me, no, they wanted to call you back to just be super simple.

[1:10:15] Andrew Hovelson: And we're actors, so we take feedback. Yeah, so instead of you doing the thing, you know, you're, uh, you know, I'm gonna shoot you. It was a man, I think I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna shoot you. Like we're gonna, and she was like, that's amazing. And I got out of the room thinking I was very happy. And of course I got the role. But I thought there's no way that any actor that's sent in a tape for this would have made that choice because that's not what's written. In fact, the casting director said, I know that's not what's written and that's probably not what's gonna happen on the day. But this, and I thought to myself, oh, we're all screwed. We don't have that, we don't have that inside of the number of times of the big bold stuff that's like we are looking for this and then you go, I think probably not actually what they're gonna do and how do you know?

How can one know? All right. Now we're just ruminating on the business. I want to make sure, but before we wrap with some advice, did we get enough Broadway juice? Did you, we get enough working with Tom Hanks? Do you have any good Glenn Close stories? Anything from the rare? I pitched that idea that you are the rare non-musical actor who's done four Broadway plays? I mean, that's really, yeah, people do a Broadway play or two, but I mean, that's a, there are not many people who've done four Broadway plays that are not musical. What were those experiences? Any great stories from this?

[1:12:40] Andrew Hovelson: The story with Tom Hanks is just he is a consummate professional and he loved telling stories. So I knew enough to just sit back and listen, right? And him and Peter Scolari and Michael Gaston and Maura Tierney and Didi Lovejoy would just tell stories and it would be amazing, right? And Christopher McDonald, Shooter McGavin, and then to show up and do the work and, you know, some of them will still email me back. Yeah, and that feels really good and I asked him for advice. So that's the main story there. That's what I learned. I'm a lucky guy. Glenn Close, so we didn't go to Broadway. They wanted it to go to Broadway and, you know, I got a little write-up in The Times that Andrew Hovelson is spot-on.

This is amazing, this is a plus for me, a plus for me. Right before the bows in the final week at the public, Glenn looks at me and she goes, so they want to bring this to Broadway. Okay, she goes, and I only want to do six shows, but okay, also do a boy. Yeah, right. Yeah, I don't know, getting understudy. Yeah, she goes, but they're not gonna do it, so we're not going. And then everybody started clapping like because we went out for bows and I just was like, oh, crying. But then my tears came out, right? Yeah, and they were not, I wasn't, they were not manipulative. They were real. That talk about so many stories like that where you go, there's nothing you could have done differently that I didn't like talk about how you don't have control over your career.

I'm like, I nailed it. I got the good write-up in The Times. I was gonna play this great role and it was gonna go and then absolutely nothing that I had control over it didn't or did, you know? And that's so for Stranger Things, this would hopefully be useful for your listeners, but you're currently starring in Stranger Things.

[1:14:30] Andrew Hovelson: Yeah, principal movie. Come and see me as Principal Newby. This business is a war of attrition. Yeah, like do you have enough stamina? Do you have enough art left in you? Do you have enough smarts to network? Do you have enough financial stability either from what you create or your family, right? Outside family, there's no shame in that. Yeah, if you've got parents, grandparents that are paying for your life for a decade, but you have to stick in the game long enough. Yeah, and what happened with the Stranger Things audition is I've just been in the game long enough that they're looking for people that can present as dads. Yeah, and boy, the competition goes down. There's not as many, goes down considerably.

It goes down considerably that can, that are able to play some sort of masculine father. Yeah, who understands that? Yeah. And there was a lot of luck in that because the audition scenes, which aren't even in the show, were getting the kids ready for school. Uh-huh. And it was all like, it was all like, hey, get your sister, you know, come on, we're okay, we're leaving without you. Yeah, they go, wow, Howard, thank you for coming in on a Sunday. And I was like, yeah, Mike, you know, my kids are super happy about it. Yeah, and they go, you have kids? And I go, yeah, how old are they? And then they ask you that because they want to know how old you are. Yeah, yeah, and you just go about old enough to be in this show.

And then they go, oh, this guy understands, right? Right. And then the second part of that story, which is incredibly useful for actors, is that I have, I hate, I don't like watching horror at all, but I have a resume of horror films. Yeah, and they're fun to do. Yeah, and another audition scene was this big scene that I have in the second act that has like blood and horror. Mm-hmm. And I did it right and they're like, do you know the, you know, do you know what happens? You know, you, I guess I can say this at this point, you know, you tear your eyes out. I was like, yeah, I just did a film where I did that. And they go, wow, we have a guy that knows how to get kids ready for school in the morning and knows how to tear his eyes out.

And that just happens because I've been around for a while. Yeah, that doesn't happen because I'm any better than any other actor that walked in there, but you're known at that drop-off. You're known, you're, that's something.

[1:16:10] Andrew Hovelson: Yeah. I want to move toward wrapping with some advice. We already are talking beautifully about your parent, for our parent listeners. You know, of course, I'll now will just want advice on how to raise my own five-year-old. But let's maybe focus mostly on the older teen, 14 to 18-year-old. If you're a parent of one of those, you know, you mentioned your parents are not knowledgeable about the business, isn't their world. Do you have any advice for like things you wish they would have done differently or just for, especially say a parent who's listening who doesn't, not related to the arts, doesn't know anything about the arts, but has a kid who is really into this?

[1:17:20] Andrew Hovelson: Yeah, no, my parents, I got exceptionally, exceptionally, exceptionally lucky. My dad asked me one time, this was for a different job, but I applied this to acting. He said, you know, you might not make any money at this. I go, yep. And he goes, then go for it. Right? So there was the freedom. It was kind of almost like the anti-pep talk. Right? So that was number one. My mom just threw gasoline on the fire of whatever we liked. Right? I don't know, you want to audition for these schools? Great. Let's buy some plane tickets. Let's go. Okay, so I don't wish they had done anything differently. Maybe they were slightly entrepreneurial. I wish they would have like explained that they had gone through some of these challenges that I was about to go to, like where does your next paycheck come from?

You know, the whole deal, how do you organize your family financial lives? That would have been nice to know early, but mom and dad, you were awesome. I mean, those are listeners I believe would listen to seven of your podcasts. They were listening, mom and dad, listening to this. I would believe.

[1:18:47] Andrew Hovelson: What was the second part of the question? Do I have advice? The second half would be advice for the artists, so for our 14 to 18-year-old listeners, any advice on how they can be useful? I won't say have a journeyman career. Sure, I have a useful career. Okay. Number one is if you are going to regret not going after it, and I'll define not going after it as not trying to get into a top BFA program right here, then you need to try to go after it. You just, you're 16, 17, 18, 19, you just have to. And if you graduate at 22 with a degree that's gonna get you as a Starbucks barista or a non-union contract for 250 bucks, you have plenty of life left to recorrect, right? If you don't like this life, but you have to go after it.

That's number one. Number two, which I think is exceptionally important, is that you have to go after it with a little handle on how you're gonna pay for it. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't matter if it's from mom, dad's money, grandpa, grandma's money, your money, scholarships, but there are too many people in this industry that have to stop being in this industry, whether they're at college, grad school, or working, that have to stop because they've never realized the financial sacrifices that they needed to make in order to keep themselves in the deli.

[1:19:29] Andrew Hovelson: Mm-hmm. I wait for that sandwich. I love that advice. I love to you. I'm just writing it down because I'm probably talking about it more than take away, but just the idea of a little handle on how you're gonna pay for it. That in some ways, it's like the things you don't want to be surprised by. We always talk about with like the college world is like, you know, if you definitely know you don't want to go to a city school, that's not gonna change. So like don't be surprised that it's in a city. Like some of these, it doesn't mean you have to necessarily have all the answers of how to pay for it, but there are things that you have to go, you shouldn't be totally shocked at 25 of what your life might look like.

And there might be 61 dollars in the bank account, 50, 60, now 59 as we retell the story, but that could happen even after you've had a big success. And that's part of what you would need if you're gonna do what you said, which is build the structure to survive the attrition and get to the point when you can play a 47-year-old or whatever that, like in a 45-year-old maybe, but I don't, that's all right. I don't know. I don't really care. I hope people think that I'm whatever age, whatever age it sounds right to you, sounds good to me. But to get to that point, that took work to build that structure for yourself, not just those individual successes, and to have a plan for that is, I do have one advice for parents.

You've already given some advice, but get more. It's not one advice. This is 17th advice. Is that, and you probably give this in MTCA a lot, is that just because you as a parent don't know the process, you know, you might be a financial planner and your kid wants to be an actor. Mm-hmm. Don't assume that their will to be an actor is going to give them the skills to navigate the college audition process. The answer is not always, well, they don't want it bad enough, right? That's why they should know when the auditions are and when the pre-screens are and when the essays need to be in. Sure, I'm a dad. I'm a 15-year-old. That would be amazing. Mm-hmm. They're also 15, 16, 17, 18, and that's a lot to ask.

So if you can help them out with some of the blocking and tackling, and as I recall, or the crossing the T's and dotting the I's, you actually might be able to then see their will, their desire, their artistry come even out more because they don't feel overwhelmed by the pressures of the logistics.

[1:23:05] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes, yes. So fun to get to chat with my dear old friend, Andrew Hovelson. I hate that I'm old enough now to say my dear old friend. I don't know when that happened. I'm still very young, people. In the grand scheme of things, I'm still very young. But it was so nice. I happened to run into Andrew at our mutual friend's show. Gabe Ebert's at his Joe's Pub show, which I oddly have brought up a couple times on this pod. And I thought to myself, why in the world have I not had Andrew on the pod? This is so silly. I do really like to try to sprinkle in these specific kind of episodes. Right. This is, you know, I called Andrew a journeyman actor and the thing. But really just an episode that's kind of focused on like what a life in this business can look like.

Right. You know, especially from people who've made that kind of sustainable career, but haven't necessarily hit that household name status. So with Lean Your Ride Out, we had on Rod Hill. Right. You know, it's what so many of our students talk about of like, I want to build a sustainable life in this industry. Most of our students don't say, I want to be a Broadway star and win a Tony Award, though that may be there wouldn't be mad about that. But they always talk about my real dream is I want to make a successful life in this industry and be able to sustain a career and what that would look like. And these are some examples of like what that could look like in a really realistic way, even though all of the examples of people on the pod are people who have been very successful.

So I sort of statistically have to tell you that that like it's not easy to do this, to be as successful as this, even though, you know, it may not be the flashy name of multi-time Tony Award winner that we sometimes have on the pod.

[1:25:00] Charlie Murphy: As I look at these takeaways, I realize I hit a bunch of them in the episode itself. I'll probably re-hit a couple of them in different ways. You know, I do really think that note about like building the life and then the structures to sustain the attrition. That is advice. You've heard me say it before, but I just would underline in bold that advice. And I really like that specific way of phrasing it. You know, of course, like with anything I say, take it with a grain of salt of my perspective. But I just really like what Andrew said. And I think he's the example of so many of his talented friends. And I certainly said this, too, of like so many of my most talented friends who have quit the business and especially quit the business in frustration have not been because they weren't achieving success.

So they didn't quit the business because they were getting nothing back. It's so often that they quit because they didn't have the sustainable structure to maintain the downswing. And as someone who this may be news for some of you. For many years, I helped supplement my bills. I helped sustain myself by playing poker. That was one of my big side jobs that I did alongside teaching that helped me sustain my life as an actor. I know you're all gasping out there. You're like, why do you play poker? I don't know that about you. You know, there are so many lessons from poker that really translate here. Exactly. No matter how good you are at playing poker, no matter how profitable a player you are, you're going to have a significant downswing at some point.

It's just going to happen. Right. And the choices that you make in advance to plan for that downswing. And, you know, in terms of how you pick poker, we call it bankroll, like how you manage your bankroll. That will so often decide whether you can endure that downswing and then make it to the next upswing. Or if it ends up ending your poker career or at least, you know, significantly harming it where you have to take three years and work a normal job before you can build up your bankroll or whatever. That is really true for acting as well. You can't only plan for the good times. You have to plan for the ups and you have to plan for the downs and be ready when the downs come.

[1:27:00] Charlie Murphy: I think it's really tricky because there's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to evaluate the downswings, to evaluate a down moment, you know, for an actor that might look like, hey, why am I not booking? Is there something in my auditions that I'm actually doing? Do I need to make adjustments in order to book more? Nothing wrong with doing that. The same way a poker player would hopefully cogently evaluate their game and say, hey, do I have a leak here? Is there something that's causing me to no longer be profitable in these games? Or is this just variance? Is this just a downswing? Right. But being able to hold that second part of the question of is this just variance? Is this just a downswing?

And just recognize that sometimes that is what is going on. It may just be variance. It may be one of those moments where you're making an investment. And this is one of the no's that's going to lead to the yes. If you can hold that second part of it and plan for it financially for yourself, it's such a freeing thing for an actor. Right. So just realize this is me putting in those hours. Right. Versus I think the opposite of that is if you're over adjusting, if you're panicking, if you're putting so much blood and spirit into those tough moments and slamming your head against the wall because it's not happening in those moments, that's when you can really burn yourself out and you just rob yourself of the ability to endure until that upswing happens.

Right. Because so many of those upswings, when those really happen, they do just happen at moments that aren't completely under your control. Right. To the point of Andrew saying he got a call out of the blue of like, can you be a rehearsal for this Broadway show next week? I mean, it may not be exactly as simple as that, but sometimes it is as simple as something that's that seems like I didn't do anything in this moment that caused this to happen. But that's from an investment from a while ago of a relationship that just happened to bloom at that moment. And we can't control the timing of when that bloom happens. We just can control the tilling of the soil and the sort of being ready for it, for that bloom to happen.

Right. And it's just good to think about that now in the sense of like I like how Andrew said, how do you get a little handle on that side of things? How do you get a little handle on the financial end of things? You know, those ups and downs. It's possible that for some people that is just too much and good to think about if you're going, I'm just not the kind of person who can ride those ups and downs. But I would just say they are navigable. Right. Sometimes you make it out of the pot like, oh, God, it's so hard. It is hard, but you can do it. It's absolutely manageable. People do it. And it's a beautiful life. And I recommend it. I'm here selling it to you all because I think it is a life that you all can manage with a little bit of hard work. You just have to have a sense of what it might be like and try to be prepared for it, as prepared for it as you can.

[1:30:00] Charlie Murphy: Right. Inevitably, you are going to be surprised by the reality of what it actually means for you, what your version of working at the Apple store from whatever, 9 p.m. to 8 a.m. or whatever it was that he did. Right. But to the point of what I tried to say in the episode of like, hey, don't be surprised that this is a football school. That's the kind of thing that you you could know that in advance when you look at the college process. So don't be surprised by the things that are completely knowable. There is some aspect of this life and career that is knowable from the outside in that there are going to be some of those ups and downs and what that might look like. And I think it may be helpful to have some sense of what you're signing up for, even though, of course, you don't know exactly what you're signing up for.

And then, boy, is it true that you're talking about just winning the war of attrition. Right. By the time you get to 40, 50, 60, there really is not the same kind of competition as there was when you're in your 20s. Right. If you can get yourself to that point, you're just talking about a different mathematical equation. But it's not easy. It's not easy to sustain a life to the point when you're in the 40s and 50s and 60s and still hitting those auditions. And the numbers start to dwindle and look a little bit more in your favor. The other thing I had to stand on my list to talk to Andrew about and we just ended up going in other directions with the different stories is just the non-musical life of it all.

Right. Just to say out there for our actors who want to make a living without singing and dancing, being a big part of it. You've often heard me, if you're a regular listener, often joke about like you may want to at least explore musicals. There's more money in musicals. Right. And I think to a large extent, that is true. That's why I say it. But, you know, Andrew is a great example of someone where that's not been the focus of what is a very successful theatrical career. And he's done really well. So, of course, it can happen. You know, I always talk about it in the sense of like maybe this was me at 18, especially being like I'm I maybe turned my nose up at it a little bit. And I thought, OK, I'm going to be a serious actor.

I'm not going to not going to sing. Right. And just knowing that the truth of like when that amazing job comes and they're going to say, hey, can you sing a little bit? You're going to want to be ready with those 16 bars and you're not going to want to turn your nose up at it when those jobs come. Right. But that, of course, doesn't mean you can't be a very successful actor without singing and dancing. Certainly true, of course, in the TV and film world. But even in this case, in the Broadway theater world, like Andrew has done.

[1:33:00] Charlie Murphy: OK. And last but not least, I know you all want to hear me talk about stoicism, stoicism. We're you're probably going to get a lot more of this future podcast just because it is something I'm interested in, the things I'm interested in. I talk about parenting and stoicism and probably hear me talk about the books I read. It's just that's how it goes. Right. I remember one of our parents a number of years ago, we were in the green room at L.A. Unified and he was talking about stoicism and how I would probably be really into it. I should get into it. And you're right, Brian. Now I'm into it. All these couple of years later. And yes, I'm very into stoicism now. But I do think there's a helpful perspective from that that hopefully I can share with all of you, especially for our high school students who are really in the struggle right now.

If you're in the struggle of the difficulty of this process and maybe especially if you're in the struggle of sort of some of the unfairness of the difficulty of this process while you're in high school and while you have all these other obstacles and things that are going on for you right now. If you're able to look at that obstacle and see an opportunity, that's the idea of the obstacle of the way. Right. And to recognize structures and limits as things that can enable you freedom within that structure. We talked about that before artistically, not even about your life, just about freedom within structure from an artistic perspective. So highly cosponsor that. But I even just mean in this in this talking about your life and the obstacles of your life.

If the reality of your financial situation or maybe the reality of your time, you just have such limited time means I can only do X amount of coaching. I can only do one hour of coaching a week. I only two hours of coaching a week because the realities of my financial situation. How can I try to see that as an opportunity and really lean in and make that coaching hour, make it the most productive hour humanly possible? If it's about financial, you certainly can talk about how are you doing work outside of session. But if it's about time and you go, this is the amount of time, hopefully it's more than one or two hours a week total. But if whatever the amount of time that you can devote to this process as a whole, if it's limited, how do you make that the most productive time humanly possible?

There is this great line from Richard II. I may have quoted this line before. I certainly quote Richard II a lot. Right. But this great line, I wasted time and now the time waste me. And I would just say, boy, does adulthood and especially parenthood teach you that. Right. And, you know, people talk about that at the very end of their life to that idea of of the feeling of, oh, God, I had so much time and I wasted time. You know, just that perspective on what time is when you only have a little bit of it left. Right. And I'm saying that specifically in the high school process. Hopefully many of you have much life left in terms of that side of things. But I know how busy you are. I know how busy we all are.

As I record this right now, I am behind on so many things. Even just saying that I'm like looking at the next couple hours of my afternoon, how much time and how much things I have to do. It's like causing me to spin. Right. But if you can try to just be present in the moment you're in. This is the day I'm in. This is the hour I'm in. This is the minute I'm in. This is the week I'm in. Whatever that version of it is. Be present with the time you have. You will find opportunities and your obstacles. You will find freedom in your constraints. And if you don't believe me, listen back in 10 years and I'm telling you, this will be true for you.

[1:35:04] Charlie Murphy: OK, that's it for another episode of Mapping the College Edition produced by Kelly Prendergast. Like and subscribe. Write us a rating and review if you need help finding opportunities and your obstacles. Check us out at MTCA.com for your help with your individual college audition process. To my young artists out there mapping their journeys, please trust that you're enough for the right program exactly as you are right now. Now keep striving. We'll catch you next week.