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[0:00] Josh Lamon: Hi, Alan. How's my baby?

[0:02] Alan Seales: Hey, Josh. I'm good. How are you?

[0:05] Josh Lamon: I'm fine. I'm sorry that you bit your tongue earlier and you have a boo-boo on your tongue. I bit my tongue days ago and it's still, yeah, it's swollen so bad that it still hurts my essence. See, this is what happens when you skip the high holidays, huh?

[0:19] Alan Seales: Yeah, that's right. You need to stick with me this fall and God will put you into the book of life without a bitten tongue.

[0:28] Josh Lamon: Well, I am so sorry.

[0:33] Josh Lamon: Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for listening and for supporting the show. Not to be a broken record, but check us out at www.patreon.com slash Josh Swallows Broadway. Because of you, we had a season three and because of you, we have a season four. Very exciting. Anyway, today is one of my oldest friends coming on the show. She's an incredible casting director and an incredible human and I'm so excited to share with you like an inside look at what a casting director does because they don't just put you in the pictures, you understand. All right, Alan, are you ready to play the music?

[1:12] Alan Seales: Only if I get a part in Billions.

[1:15] Josh Lamon: Done. You're in the pictures. Now play the music.

[1:18] Josh Lamon: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Josh Swallows Broadway. I'm so happy that you all have been listening to the show and supporting the show. You all mean so much to me, but you don't mean as much as one of my closest, dearest friends. We basically started our crazy journeys together and I don't know, maybe if you've watched Billions, the other two, Mass, maybe you liked Dallas Buyers Club, Pitch Perfect, The Help, one of my favorite films, Compliance. This extraordinary woman cast those films and TV shows. That's right, bitches. I've got one of the biggest casting directors in the world and in my heart here on the show. Welcome to the show, Allison Estrin.

[2:27] Allison Estrin: Well, that was like the greatest introduction I could ever ask for.

[2:31] Josh Lamon: Right, right. I've been planning it and working on it all week.

[2:35] Allison Estrin: That was good. I could tell it was beautifully rehearsed. However, also felt like it was coming out for the first time.

[2:42] Josh Lamon: And with that said, we're going another way.

[2:44] Allison Estrin: Yeah. I mean, it was good. No, no, don't get me wrong. It was very, very good. But we're looking for something a little different, another type.

[2:54] Josh Lamon: But we loved him. We loved him and we will bring him back for something else later.

[3:02] Allison Estrin: Story of my life, a little triggering. Hi, friend.

[3:06] Josh Lamon: Hi, friend. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I love you so much.

[3:11] Allison Estrin: It's my pleasure.

[3:12] Josh Lamon: Now that we just had another snow day up here, it reminded me of the first night that we officially met. It was a huge snowstorm.

[3:21] Allison Estrin: A huge snowstorm. Your roommate at the time, Eddie, is married now, but was dating one of my best friends, Tony. And they drove me from Washington Heights to Sunnyside, Queens in the middle of a blizzard. And when the door opened, I saw the most beautiful, angelic person I've ever seen in my life, cozied up on the couch, and we just fell in love.

[3:48] Allison Estrin: That is correct. I mean, because I wasn't going to get out and drive to Washington Heights to meet you. So you definitely had to come to me.

[3:56] Josh Lamon: That would never happen these days. And I'd be like, you want me to go where?

[4:04] Allison Estrin: Yeah, no.

[4:05] Josh Lamon: Blizzard? No.

[4:07] Allison Estrin: No. No, we would just get on a Zoom.

[4:09] Josh Lamon: At the time, you were an actress, which I love.

[4:14] Allison Estrin: We can use quotes.

[4:19] Josh Lamon: When my claim to fame was a dead body on Law & Order SVU, I think we can definitely use air quotes for my acting days. I also was, of course, in the Vagina Monologues in Brooklyn.

[4:36] Allison Estrin: The Galapagos space in Brooklyn. I believe that definitely solidified the end to an illustrious acting career.

[4:45] Josh Lamon: Wasn't there like a bunch of, like, didn't some artists make a bunch of fake vaginas and put them on trees or something?

[4:52] Allison Estrin: No, they weren't fake. They were real. I can't believe you're gonna make me tell this story.

[4:56] Josh Lamon: You don't have to. We can have a safe word. Our safe word is Brexit.

[5:01] Allison Estrin: It was just a very immersive Vagina Monologues, I think is the best way to say that that was.

[5:15] Josh Lamon: Oh no, your headphone flew off.

[5:22] Allison Estrin: This is like how much I'm not used to doing this sort of thing.

[5:30] Josh Lamon: Podcasts.

[5:31] Allison Estrin: Podcasts, even like, I try not to Zoom auditions. I'm not into any of that.

[5:38] Josh Lamon: Yeah, Zooming is the worst. Zoom auditions are the worst.

[5:41] Allison Estrin: Zoom auditions are the worst. They are the worst. I mean, we can jump right into this if you want, but I think that self tapes and Zoom auditions are not here to stay. It's a controversial thing to say. I know that there are other casting directors that are liking it. I know some producers like it. I think it's, I think it's hell. I think it's hell for me. I think it's hell for the actor.

[6:05] Josh Lamon: I think it's also hell for like, agents, because like, I wanted them to like, find me work.

[6:15] Allison Estrin: And they are, but at the same time, they're watching hundreds of self tapes every day. So it's like, how much time is going into that?

[6:23] Josh Lamon: Absolutely. Well, and then sometimes they're not watching them, or they're just giving notes. And that sort of stuff when they, you know, it's none of it. No one is doing the job that they are supposed to do. Actors are not tech people. They are not supposed to, you know, know how to find lights and cameras and all of that stuff. And actors shouldn't have to self-direct themselves. They're actors, you know, that's why you have me. That's, it's just such an absolutely ridiculous part of the process that I am praying, praying, praying goes away soon.

[7:04] Josh Lamon: Oh, me too. Me too, my friend. But I will say that out of all of the casting directors that I've gone in for, you're one of my favorites, because you're so lovely and kind and supportive. And like the whole like, you want the person to book the job, or you know, I mean, great, you know, it's

[7:23] Allison Estrin: Yes, I feel like that's my secret that I always wish every actor understood is that casting directors really do want the actors to book the job. I mean, first and foremost, because my job is done when you book the job. And I usually have like, you know, 100 roles to cast in a short period of time. So if you come in, and you're amazing, done, great, I can move on. And you're amazing. How exciting. So I, I love that. But also, it's just I wouldn't do my job if I didn't think that actors were incredible. And so seeing incredible auditions and getting to support that, like, that is the most fun part of my job. And then, you know, getting to make that call. And I mean, I rarely get to make the call to the actor.

But even just being a part of that, and you know, their dreams are coming true. And it's such an incredible thing that gets to happen when people start to book one job and the next and the next. And I mean, it's just it's a really exciting part of the process. Obviously, it also sucks to say no, and to hear about all the no's that sucks too. But we'll focus on the good.

[8:49] Josh Lamon: Yeah. So what made you go into casting?

[8:52] Allison Estrin: Oh, I needed a job.

[9:02] Josh Lamon: I love that it started with like, Oh, I had a dream.

[9:08] Allison Estrin: No, no, no, no. Going back to I was a dead body on Law and Order. I needed a job. Um, and I was staying on the couch of our friend that we just discussed, Eddie. I was staying on his couch. And his other roommate at the time was a casting director.

[9:35] Allison Estrin: And for Broadway shows, and she kind of like, get off my couch. Do you want to, like, be a monitor for big dance calls, which like, you know, for all of my very specific type of indie film casting, I am a musical theater nerd, as you know. And so the idea of getting to spend my day watching a bunch of, you know, dancers and learn the combinations and sing and you know, all that stuff like I was like, I want to do that. Little did I know that I would like, also get like yelled at when I when I first walked into the room and didn't know how anyone's supposed to fill out their forms or anything like that. But I learned. But you know, dancers can be intense when you're doing that wrong. Equity got called on me. It was the whole thing.

[10:38] Josh Lamon: Wait a minute. So the dancers would yell at you?

[10:41] Allison Estrin: Well, yeah, I mean, because I didn't know what I was doing. I learned, but I definitely was like thrown in the deep end and was like, Oh, I'm just okay. Um, you know, people have their, their schedule there. They got there at like seven o'clock in the morning, they want their time slot. Like, okay, great. But I learned and I did, I ended up, I got hired from just being a monitor and stuff. They had a assistant job open there. And I became a full time casting assistant for Broadway musicals. But pretty quickly learned that I had no clue like what a high C was. Or like, if someone was doing like, you know, a certain hints, I'm like, they're kicking high, that seems good. But I did know if someone was doing a good job in their scene.

And I knew how to, you know, make them better at that scene. And we did do a couple of straight plays there as well. So the wonderful casting director, Jack Bowden, who I worked with, noticed that I was better at that and kind of started pulling me into those rooms. When we were doing Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe and Journey's End, and just, you know, wonderful Inherit the Wind. We were, it was just, we were doing really wonderful plays that he was like, just come in and be in these auditions. You clearly, this is clearly more your thing.

[12:27] Josh Lamon: You were part of some of the most like profound theater experiences that I've ever had. Journey's End, Gypsy with Patti LuPone. Are you kidding? I saw it so many times. Gypsy was probably like the one that solidified that I absolutely wanted to do this for a career.

[12:51] Allison Estrin: And how and why I wanted to, because I was able to create a great relationship with Arthur Lawrence, which was a gift beyond gifts to me. I know that, you know, he scared the shit out of a lot of people, but he was always remarkably kind to me. And I think mainly just because I really wanted to hear everything he had to say. He had a really, really strong vision. And I wanted to hear everything about that vision. And I wanted to help make it come to life. And I had always been such a huge fan of Gypsy from the time I was a kid. It was one of the first musicals I saw. I loved it. And I was a huge Natalie Wood fan, of course, because, you know, I'm human. So I, you know, I just like drank it all up and just felt so blessed that he like talked me through everything.

And, you know, it was especially the passing of the strippers that was like the most exciting thing to me because he wanted it so different than how it had always been. And I remember him saying to me, like, Alison, like, they're just, it shouldn't be like three hot women. Like it's not like three women who are 24, like, and he's like, these women have like been through it. And he's like, explaining it all to me. And I'm like, yes, like I this makes so much sense. And I love it. And I just loved that vision of it that it just it helped me get so much ownership over the whole process. And just working with him is, I think what helped create my love of working with directors and understanding like what that process was. And I loved it. And that was actually the last thing that I

[14:46] Allison Estrin: I worked on at Bender Casting before I moved into film and TV.

[14:53] Josh Lamon: Do you remember the actress who played Elektra?

[14:58] Allison Estrin: Elektra was... She sold a show for me. She was so brilliant.

[15:03] Josh Lamon: Oh my god, don't...

[15:04] Allison Estrin: It was so long ago. Well, whoever they were... I mean, I remember Lenore Nametz played Mazepa.

[15:12] Josh Lamon: Yes, absolutely.

[15:14] Allison Estrin: Was it Malinda? Was it Malinda? We're gonna have to like later do a correction of this because I'm gonna feel so awful that I am like... Because what's also funny, and this does happen to me, is that sometimes I remember people's auditions so much more than I often remember the final product. So like, I could sit here and tell you like at least three or four women that I know auditioned for Elektra, but I'm like, was it? Is that who we... Like, but I remember so vividly like those women who auditioned for it are women that I often still bring in and cast to this day because it meant so much to me.

[15:56] Josh Lamon: It was Marilyn...

[15:59] Allison Estrin: Kasky?

[16:00] Josh Lamon: Marilyn Kasky.

[16:02] Allison Estrin: Incredible.

[16:04] Josh Lamon: Very good.

[16:05] Allison Estrin: Incredible. I'm glad you just looked that up quickly because I...

[16:08] Josh Lamon: Get it.

[16:12] Allison Estrin: There was another casting director recently said to me, she's like, isn't it incredible how many people we know in this world? It's so much more than normal people know.

[16:25] Josh Lamon: And I'm like, yes, that is correct. I think it's why it'd be terrible of what you do because I don't... My memory is so bad, like I remember faces, but if I see them in something, I'm like, oh, I saw you in that. Oh, right. You were terrific.

[16:45] Allison Estrin: It's so different when you meet them in person and you do know bazillions of people.

[16:53] Josh Lamon: I know. Yeah. But then I'm also still so excited to meet more and more and more. That's the thing. At this point, I think I've cast everyone in New York on billions besides you, but we have time.

[17:12] Allison Estrin: There's still time. The office needs a jester. The office needs a jester. But I mean, billions at this point is like, you know, you can go to the Broadway program and look it up like Law & Order and see like everyone has done an episode. I mean, that show employs a lot of New York people.

[17:36] Josh Lamon: Amen. Thank God. Thank God. And so many incredible people. My beloved Sarah Stiles and Daniel, just all those wonderful, wonderful people.

[17:48] Allison Estrin: So what brought you into like film and TV? What was like the main difference, I guess, between like theater casting to like, oh, now you're casting feature films?

[17:58] Allison Estrin: I mean, for me, I think one of the things that I always found really frustrating about casting theater, it was having to do all of the replacement casting. I think it's a really interesting thing. I think it's a really, really hard job to do. But something that I really love about film and TV is that you cast one person and what they do, that's it. Unless it's like Bewitched or something, or, you know, Roseanne and you like can switch out a character halfway through. But normally, there's just that one person that does it. And I mean, I love that. I love that whole process. And it is a very different process. And it's also just a different, you know, style of acting that is a little bit more my style of acting.

[19:01] Josh Lamon: Sure. Sure. Now, I guess because so many people don't really know what the day to day is of being a casting person. Like, tell me about your life. Tell me about your job. Like, what is it like, when you, I know, it's COVID times, but...

[19:20] Allison Estrin: Right, it's a little, right, right. I mean, right, in a non COVID times, you know, a day usually consists of auditions. You know, in a busy period, it can be, you know, the morning I'll do auditions for one project and the afternoon auditions for another. And then in the middle of that is the kind of the constant talking to the agents and negotiating deals. And, you know, that fun part of the process that everybody loves so much. And, you know, sometimes the sessions will have the directors with them and sometimes, uh, sometimes not. And so then it's, you know, figuring out who we want to send. And then another part of a day is always figuring out the next day or like three days ahead because it's figuring out who it's looking through all the breakdowns and figuring out who we want to bring in for each project or who we want to make an offer to for every project.

And I don't always, I mean, I look at all the breakdowns, but I don't only count on breakdowns. You know, I also have like my list in my head of, I want to make sure that I see so-and-so-and-so-and-so for this project. Um, so that's normally what it comes down to. And then of course, like if we're in production, there's always some crazy madcap thing that's happening that day that we get a call from a AD or producer saying something has switched and you got to switch and reschedule around for the next week and all of that nonsense.

[21:17] Josh Lamon: That's amazing. So like, if somebody comes to you with a project, what's the first step? Like, is there like an audition process for you?

[21:21] Allison Estrin: Oh yeah. I mean, not, not always. And I'm, I count myself very grateful for this, that there are times that, you know, at this point I have, um, I have a group of producers and directors that I just work with on a regular basis that will just say like, okay, here's, here's my next thing. Look at the script. And, and so then, um, in that case, I'm usually the first, um, first one hired, first one to look at the script and then start talking out ideas about who to make the first couple of offers to. Um, but in other situations, um, you know, uh, a network or a studio or a producer could call me and say like, we have the script. Um, would you be willing to sit down with the director? Do you have any interest in this or something like that?

Um, and so, you know, there, there are definitely like, um, certainly for inventing Anna, uh, my, uh, I work a lot with Henry Russell Bergstein and Henry and I, um, absolutely had to go and meet Shonda and go through that whole experience, which it was like a pleasure that even if we had not gotten it, I would be like, remember when I sat down with Shonda Rhimes, that was so cool.

[23:04] Josh Lamon: That's amazing. Yeah. And I'm obsessed with that show so much. My favorite line is Anna Dovey's a masterpiece. Like I want it to be my ringtone.

[23:06] Allison Estrin: Um, it was, it was great actually. Like, I mean, it was crazy because we started it and had already been working on it for a couple of months and then the pandemic happened.

[23:08] Allison Estrin: I'm sure. I'm sure you can make that happen.

[23:12] Josh Lamon: What was working on that? Like,

[23:18] Josh Lamon: Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

[23:18] Allison Estrin: Yeah. So we went down well, like in the middle of filming and it was already going to be a huge epic, you know, we went to multiple countries and it's multiple episodes and every episode has like a million characters and all of these, I mean, everything was huge about that show. Um, and so we went down and then we were one of the first shows back, um, because we had a window, uh, cause Julia Garner's also on Ozark. So we had a window that we had to then go back in, um, and to be one of the first shows back, um, at that point during COVID was, um, pretty scary. You know, I feel like at this point, everybody's kind of gotten used to how it all works, but this was a very different situation where we were having to ask people if they were comfortable with going back.

There was, I mean, far from having a vaccine. Um, everybody was getting tested constantly. Um, you know, it was, it was scary. And then we also went from doing a million auditions in person to all of a sudden every audition was a self tape. And again, this was before everyone had figured out how to do all of the self tapes the way that they are now. So some of them are like, God, God bless everyone who put themselves on tape for us during that time. I mean, they're reading with their like moms and grandmothers and like, in, you know, in basements and, you know, animals running around, babies crying, whatever. And we're just like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. Um, so there was definitely like a learning curve for all of that. Um, but then it was also really awesome to see, like, you know, for all of, I don't know how far you've gotten into the series yet.

[25:23] Josh Lamon: Okay. So there's, uh, there's a great episode where we see a lot of like behind the scenes going on at the hotel, uh, that she was staying at. And we see like all of the different people and we had actors who, you know, were auditioning for the chef. And so they like got themselves in the kitchen and all set up and like, everyone was just like going for it because it was kind of at a time where people were like, well, I don't know what to do. I'm just going to do this. Um, so it, it really ended up great. Um, but it's funny to have like half a cast of all people we had in the room and, you know, knew like that. And then the other half of like, oh, I have not met that person in real life. Um, but I'm very excited like to see what they're doing with it.

Yeah. Um, but that was a, uh, we ended up and then we ended up going like months longer cause you know, COVID made everything happen longer. So we worked on that for well over a year, well over. Yeah. That's amazing. I think it was about a year and a half.

[26:31] Josh Lamon: I love the woman who's the prison guard with like the glitter.

[26:36] Allison Estrin: Her role is glitter eyeshadow. That's the name. That's the name of the role.

[26:41] Josh Lamon: I love her so much. I want to hug her. I want to be her friend. I want to be in prison.

[26:48] Allison Estrin: All of the Rikers islands. I love that you said that this keeps falling and I'm sorry.

[26:53] Josh Lamon: No, no, it's okay. Thank you for the apology though. Um, no, it's great. This is, this is what you get when you borrow your boyfriend's setup.

[27:04] Allison Estrin: Oh, I love him. He's wonderful by the way. Happy Valentine's day.

[27:08] Josh Lamon: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Um, so like I just, I am so mind blown by what you do because it's like you have to put together a giant puzzle basically from scratch. Like you read a script and then you're like, I know here's a list of like 20 people that could do each of these things. Like I just don't, I respect you so much. I wish I had that kind of brain.

[27:39] Allison Estrin: Um, I mean some of it is a taught thing and then some of it isn't, you know, some of it is just kind of a naturally like, um, my mom told me that like when I was a kid and we were, you know, when I would like be upset when the school play, like would post it's a list of who was going to play what that I wouldn't just have like a strong opinion over what I was playing. I just had crazy strong opinions over who everyone was playing and like what that meant. And like that, like she said, like that, like I obnoxiously talked about it. Like it, it obviously didn't occur to us then that like, Oh, she should be a casting director because like, you know, I, there wasn't, it's only recently that I think people understand like that it's a job. Um, but the amount of times people still say to me when, you know, when I ask what I do and I say casting director, they're like, Oh, so you pick who goes, who goes in the movie. And I'm like, I guess that's a way to put it.

[29:03] Allison Estrin: Um, I like to say that I'm more like Tim Gunn. That's so perfect. And so true, where like, I can help curate a great group. And then I can really work with and give advice and advocate for, for everyone. It is up to you as the actor or designer, if you want to take that advice. Um, but the, in the end, I am not your final judge. I am the person that talks to the final judges and gives my opinion and shares my experience with them. But I am not the final.

[29:34] Allison Estrin: I'm so much more the advocate than I think people think of as a casting director. They like how they think that we could possibly just be like, yeah, you, you and you, you get to go to set. I mean, okay.

[29:52] Josh Lamon: First of all, I love that you're our Tim Gunn. You are Tim Gunn. You're my Tim Gunn.

[29:58] Allison Estrin: I'm totally Tim Gunn.

[30:00] Josh Lamon: I feel like a lot of people get very confused and think that like, oh, you're a casting director, you could put me in the pictures.

[30:06] Allison Estrin: Right, right.

[30:07] Josh Lamon: It's not really how that works.

[30:09] Allison Estrin: No, there was one time that. So in The Other Two, which you mentioned, Henry and I, Henry Russell Bergstein, I cast that together, and Henry appears in the pilot as a casting director, which, you know, was not hard casting, but was still a discussion. We had still, you know, we actually had audition actors and there was an actor that was going to do it and he had to drop out for a family emergency at the last minute, so I was like, okay, let's, let's have Henry do it.

[30:39] Josh Lamon: That's fun. But then like a couple episodes later, there was a voiceover that I was like, well, I kind of want to do this.

[30:46] Allison Estrin: And I never ever even tried, but I was like, it's a voiceover, I can do that. I put myself, you know, on tape, on a voice recording. They did not choose me.

[31:00] Josh Lamon: No.

[31:01] Allison Estrin: Did not choose me.

[31:03] Josh Lamon: I'm going to boycott the show and have a candlelit vigil at midnight tonight until they redo the episode.

[31:11] Allison Estrin: But I was much happier to get those other actors jobs. And, you know, they're wonderful actors. And that's great. But I was like, I'm gonna, I can do this one. This one seems really fun for me.

[31:24] Josh Lamon: Oh, and then you were like, this is why I don't do that anymore.

[31:28] Allison Estrin: Yeah, yeah. Like, not only can I not get other people jobs, I can't get myself one. So, no.

[31:36] Josh Lamon: Do you also get like a lot of weird like, like, I don't know, like letters or, you know, like, what are some of the weirdest ones?

[31:48] Allison Estrin: Please.

[31:50] Josh Lamon: I know you get some gems.

[31:52] Allison Estrin: I do. And, but I'm not the only one. And I think the thing is, you know, I am friends with other cast directors and managers and we do sometimes from time to time, send them around. I mean, it's like, I don't want to make fun of what anyone does. But I will say, like, people do make some very odd choices of what they think they should send.

[32:07] Josh Lamon: I mean, we never ever need pictures of anyone in various states of dress.

[32:31] Allison Estrin: No, never ever do we want that.

[32:34] Josh Lamon: No matter how good you look, we don't know.

[32:38] Allison Estrin: I also like have gotten things of like, I really just, you know, love riding my horse. And like, there'll be like a whole long page about like riding their horse and what that does for them. I'm like, why, why am I getting this?

[33:04] Josh Lamon: Like, why, like, why am I receiving anything about a horse?

[33:10] Allison Estrin: You know, or, or some, you know, sometimes it's just like people where it's like so clearly like a fill in the blank of like, I really respect the work you do on blank. And then it's, you know, I'm like, okay, and they've like maybe filled in Billions, but like clearly have never like watched the show or, you know, like, I think I could be a really great fit for this. You know, a little girl who's like dressed like Wednesday Addams and I'm like, in what world, how are you a good fit for Billions like, look, I do 10 other things, pick, pick a different show.

[33:57] Josh Lamon: Who could give advice to actors that are just starting out and struggling, especially with like, getting their foot in the door or even trying to get an agent? What would your advice be?

[34:09] Allison Estrin: Well, I think the first advice I would give right now especially is, if there is anything else in the world that you love doing, you should like riding horses, like riding horses, then you should do that, because it is so hard. Being an actor is so, so, so hard. What you guys do, how you put yourselves out there. I truly have the utmost respect for being able to do what you guys do and wake up every day and just put in the work, which is just usually remarkable amount of work.

[34:48] Josh Lamon: It kills me.

[34:51] Allison Estrin: So, if, if truly if there is another thing that you're like debating between of like, well, you know, I also really love biochemistry, do that. Hey, I would be like, if I do biochemistry, I would be living in Hawaii, in the lab, right, with a hot husband and some horses and some horses.

[35:18] Josh Lamon: So I do, you know, yeah, like I do think that if there is other things, but understanding that for most of you that have just heard me say that you're like, well, there's nothing else. So, if you get to the point where where there's nothing else, and acknowledging that right now with COVID makes it even fucking harder than it did before.

[35:51] Allison Estrin: So that, you know, before there was a time where I would say like, well, you're in New York, go do a play like get together with a group of people and like, you know, figure out how to perform something so that people can come see you. Well, that's impossible right now. Like, you know, people are kind of starting to do it a little bit, but it's, it's definitely very, very hard.

[36:18] But I have really respected the people who have kind of transitioned that into, into making their own short films and their own, their own work like that. And I'm still trying to figure out how to do that. Because I think, even if it's not something that I end up seeing or that other people, you know, that like, you know, wins an Academy Award for short film or something. Things beget other things. And knowing people and working with people and continuing the community, especially in New York City, is to me how people always end up getting jobs. Word of mouth is huge.

[37:11] Josh Lamon: You know, it's also why I say like, go and if there's a possibility to do like an NYU or Columbia or whatever, you know, student film, you should do that. Because you're also just, you know, actors can't rehearse the way a musician can. And acting is a muscle that you do need. You do need practice, you do need to keep going. And, you know, you can't just sit and, you know, the way that you can just like play the violin until you get perfect, you cannot do that as an actor without being on a set, being on a stage like you need other people for it.

[37:55] Allison Estrin: So my biggest advice would be really looking toward your community and how you all can create something together, because you never know, like, who that person in that group is. Maybe they have an agent that sees it and it's like, hey, who was that girl in that? Like, I really liked her. Or, you know, the amount of times I've worked with a first time director who says to me, like, you know what, this role, I really want it to go to the person that was in my thesis film because they just really like stepped up for me. And I think they're great. I've met wonderful actors that way. Really, really wonderful actors because they were in someone's thesis film. So I think those would be kind of my advice.

[38:56] Josh Lamon: But it's also acknowledging that everybody has a different path there. There is no one way to do it. Everybody has their own journey.

[39:09] Allison Estrin: You know, just like I could sit here and say, like, oh, my God, do not send me an email about your horse. Well, maybe someone else, some other casting director read that and was like, well, I got this email about this horse, this girl who could ride a horse. And I was casting a movie about that. And that's what I needed.

[39:29] Josh Lamon: Yeah, absolutely. And I also I really, really love what you said about, you know, making your own work and putting yourself out there and finding your community because a part of why I want to be an actor at all is because it is my community.

[39:44] Allison Estrin: Absolutely. Yeah.

[39:46] Josh Lamon: And I don't feel like I belong anywhere else. I don't. I don't belong with other people who aren't like you and me and our friends. And it's this is the world that I always wanted to be in.

[40:01] Allison Estrin: And the same thing with like every agent I ever got was because they saw me doing something that their client was in.

[40:10] Josh Lamon: Exactly, exactly.

[40:12] Allison Estrin: And and not that it was easy. I wouldn't freak years without having an agent.

[40:18] Josh Lamon: And like and I have friends that reach out right now and it's heartbreaking because they're like, could you talk to your agent or something? And I'm like, I could. But here's the thing. Everybody is out of work.

[40:31] Allison Estrin: Every every agent is trying to get their current roster working. Nobody is really taking on a lot of new people.

[40:40] Josh Lamon: It's a remarkably hard time for that. It really, really is. Now, that being said, there is a lot of work right now, which is really exciting. And I think because there was like a backlog of things that, you know, had to get finished.

[40:58] Allison Estrin: And then there really is like an insurgence of new things.

[41:05] Josh Lamon: So there there is work to be had. But I think you are correct that, you know, at this point, like agents and actors went so long without the work.

[41:16] Allison Estrin: So it makes sense to me that an agent is saying, like, I do need the people that I already have to be getting the work so that we get back.

[41:25] Josh Lamon: Everyone just needs to get because the thing is, like when the pandemic hit, like we were at like an all time high of the amount of work happening.

[41:33] Allison Estrin: So many people were like it was bustling. It was just really bustling. So it's just a matter of like how to get back to there.

[41:45] Josh Lamon: That stupid headphone keeps popping out. I'm sorry. I blame Craig.

[41:50] Allison Estrin: I would blame Craig. Yeah, he's.

[41:55] Josh Lamon: I think it's also like I smile too much.

[41:58] Allison Estrin: And the smile pushes it out. It's exactly what's happening.

[42:04] Josh Lamon: So, yeah, that's why that keeps happening. You keep making me smile.

[42:09] Allison Estrin: Oh, you. Oh, shucks. Well, I'm really, really proud of you. I'm proud of all that you've done. I'm.

[42:17] Josh Lamon: I'm proud of you. You're amazing. Thanks. You inspire me constantly.

[42:23] Allison Estrin: You always keep it real, but you give it with love. You you put light into the world, into people's lives. And, you know, I'm just so grateful.

[42:38] Josh Lamon: Thanks, friend. Gosh, I don't want to count how many years we've been friends. But I hope we we remain friends for the rest of our lives because you're a special, special human.

[42:49] Allison Estrin: Thank you so much for coming on to the show today and giving my world a little little look into what it's like to be one of the best cast directors in the world.

[43:00] Allison Estrin: Anytime. It's my pleasure. I love you.

[43:04] Josh Lamon: And thank you all so much for listening to another episode of Josh Swallows Broadway. We love your support. Thank you so much for everything.

[43:12] Josh Lamon: You can continue to support us at www.patreon.com slash Josh Swallows Broadway. We're closing up season three soon, but then we'll have season four. And it's all because of you. So thank you all so much. Much love and goodbye.

[43:31] Josh Lamon: Josh Swallows Broadway is produced by Alan Seals, Dory Berenstein and myself, Josh Lehman, with associate producer Elizabeth Wheelis. And special thanks to our Patreon producers, David Rimmer and Josh Harris.

[43:44] Josh Lamon: You can join them. All you have to do is go to www.patreon.com slash Josh Swallows Broadway. Leave a rating. Leave a review. I read them. This is how I continue living. Help me live.

[43:58] Josh Lamon: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for keeping Broadway alive and swallow you soon.

[44:09] Josh Lamon: Josh Swallows, Josh Swallows, Josh Swallows Broadway.