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[0:00] Jeff Malone: Welcome to Half Hour with Jeff & Richie, the podcast where we explore the latest shows we see, sharing our insights and opinions on the performances, storylines, and everything in between. In today's episode, we're discussing the new Broadway play, MCNEAL, currently playing at the Vivian Beaumont Theatre and Lincoln Center Theatre, and is currently starring Robert Downey Jr. Whether you cannot catch the show in person or you want to expand your thoughts after seeing it, this episode is for you. As always, we want to inform you that this episode will contain spoilers, so if you're ready to dive into this production, stick around with us. I'm Jeff.

[0:31] Richie Grasso: And I'm Richie, and we're thrilled to be your hosts for today's episode. But before we start the conversation about MCNEAL, here are a few words from our advertisers.

[0:42] Jeff Malone: Welcome, everyone, to a new episode of Half Hour with Jeff & Richie. Today, we're discussing the Broadway run of MCNEAL. Jacob McNeal, played by Academy Award winner Robert Downey Jr., is a great writer, one of our greatest, a perpetual candidate for the Nobel Prize in literature. But McNeal also has an estranged son, a new novel, old axes to grind, and an unhealthy fascination with artificial intelligence. Pulitzer Prize winner Ayad Akhtar's new play is a startling and wickedly smart examination of the inescapable humanity and increasing inhumanity of the stories that we tell, directed by Tony Award winner Bartlett Sher. So once again, we're talking about McNeal in today's episode. So let's start this conversation with our hot take. I'll go first. Okay, my hot take on McNeal is that I was pleasantly surprised with how relatable this story was and the writing. And I was actually quite blown away by Robert Downey Jr.'s performance.

[1:49] Jeff Malone: I will say that I was kind of surprised too, because I didn't really know much about this going in. And I feel like this was the think piece that I've been waiting for for a while to make you really get the gears moving in your brain as you're following a smart play and following dialogue. And it was something that I really enjoyed. And I'm still thinking about it. I'm looking forward to talking about more here, because it's really making me think a lot.

[2:14] Richie Grasso: Yeah, it's great. So let's get into that. Then let's start with our overall thought on the plot and concept of this piece. I mean, just so everyone knows, we're really dealing with an AI-heavy production here. So I feel like there's a lot to kind of touch on that with exploring the blurred lines between stealing people's work and putting it into your own and how we're using AI in that, which is this big theme that's happening in this play. And how do you feel like that was kind of captured in this?

[2:46] Jeff Malone: I feel like it was captured well, because I feel like we're dealing with this as a society right now. It's evolving. So we're watching something as a play on stage evolving as we're learning about it. So it's very clear that the director, the playwright, the designers, and the actors, of course, had to sit there and learn about this while producing this work. I also will say that we've become a society, especially the Broadway world, where we've been putting really safe think pieces on stage. And I'm not saying the drama or the comedy is safe, because I think we are pushing boundaries with drama and comedy in many ways. I'm talking about plot. If I was to just sit here and talk about plot, I think so many things are pretty cookie cutter and very, like, let me beat the audience over the head with my message.

[3:40] Richie Grasso: And this is going to sound maybe a lot of left field, but when you look at a play like Waiting For Godot, and you don't really know what's going on, but you kind of know what's going on, but you make your own interpretation of it, there's a reason why that play, in its absurdist way, still stays relevant today. Because it's a playwright that says, here, you take it now, audience. I've done some work for you. I'm not leaving you in the cold. I'm not leaving you completely blind, but let me do some work for you, and you tell me what they're waiting for. Who's Godot? Who are they waiting for? You start figuring that out on your own. And with McNeal, I feel like it was an opportunity to say, hey, we're going to spell some things out for you, and I want you to figure out what is really happening, what is AI, what are the relationships, what did happen, what it didn't. And I'm not going to leave you extremely confused.

I just want you to think, get in the boat, and let's row this boat together, as cast, as crew, as designers, as director, playwright, and as audience members, and let's go together. And I thought that was kind of cool.

[4:43] Jeff Malone: What I love right now is, I'm going to call McNeal, Job's sister playwright now on Broadway, because I feel like Job and McNeal are kind of this more relatable, millennial-style writing that you and I are really enjoying. And I feel like, I don't know if everyone in the theatre was fully understanding how serious AI is in the space right now, in terms of technology. But we had Job, the tech play about someone that's working in tech, and now we have McNeal, the play about someone using tech to advance in their career. So, looking and kind of diving into this a little bit more, we have a playwright, which I think is even more interesting, writing novels. McNeal is writing novels in this show, and he is pulling from text to use AI to write a new story in his own words. And I think that's the kind of disconnect that some people might not understand, that that is something that is capable right now.

[5:54] Richie Grasso: Yes. And it took this really accomplished writer to who has written so many things, this character, and who has also learned so much from reading so many famous texts. But it was also fascinated with AI, and didn't ignore AI, but also slowly let it creep into his life personally and professionally. And I think that's what we're all kind of dealing with, is like, how do educators handle AI with students? How are daily people in daily life handling AI? Is it too big for us? But I don't know if it's necessarily too big. If you look at something like this, it's just easier. So, forever, we have been taught, go, read text, interpret the text, and put the text in your own words. There's now a tool that can help do the same thing. So, go, read the text for me, put it in my own words, learn how to write like me, and then spit it back out.

[6:56] Jeff Malone: Well, it's interesting, because does AI work in some industries like science, or where it's factual-based, and AI can pull factual data together? And then maybe when you look at something like this character, who's a writer, where it's creative, an artist, a musician, what is AI going to be doing for the arts fields? That's what will be very interesting. That's what's going to be interesting, because you look at it, and you say to yourself, all right, well, creativity has always been that industry, like, um, people had to do all of it. You know, people had to write the songs, people had to write the books. And then it's interesting, though, because what did you used to do? You would either sit down with other songwriters and write a song together.

So, I think people forget that. AI is the other person that might be sitting, that you can now sit down with, and it will help you write the song. So, let's say you got the song out on paper, and then you said, hey, AI, fix it for me. That's kind of the interesting thing. That's where he's like, in this play, he's like, write my acceptance speech, like, make my acceptance speech better. And I'm sure anyone even listening to this podcast right now has used AI in some form of way. You go onto Google now, and AI finds you better results than Google ever did.

[8:21] Richie Grasso: It's funny, because I was looking actually up, I was looking for the runtime of McNeal, and I used to have to Google runtime of blank show, and have to look through articles to find where someone wrote about the runtime, especially early on in the preview when you don't quite know. Instantly, AI brought up the runtime of McNeal is an hour and 45 minutes during a mission. Instantly, I was like, oh, okay, like, I didn't have a choice. Google decided that they were going to use AI after I typed that into Google. So, yes, it is fascinating stuff. I also think there was this wonderful meshing in of this piece of references to older works. Shakespeare was very prevalent here. I loved the ending, how he said, write how I can wrap this show up for the audience in the Shakespearean style of The Tempest.

And it was like, that was cool, because then there was this beautiful, poetic writing. And then there was also reference to how there's theories that Shakespeare stole things from plays that came before him. And so, there's a lot of reference to the famous works that came before hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

[9:28] Jeff Malone: But I really just think all AI is doing, it's not doing the work for you. I think it kind of is. But is it? I mean, it's just doing it faster.

[9:39] Richie Grasso: So, I would argue that a little bit, because if I sat here and said, write me a 10-page children's book about a tiger in a zoo, the book would be written. And I would have to be the one to look and say, do I edit this? Do I go through? Do I put my name on it? And if I don't really do many edits, and I read this, I said, this is a great children's book. Do I put my name on it? No, I don't think so. I don't know. That's what's very confusing.

[10:06] Jeff Malone: Right. But on a basic level, if you were to do that, it would come across as AI. That's the thing that I feel like people are forgetting.

[10:15] Jeff Malone: So when you get down into the writing of this piece, you watch Jacob McNeal, and he had different scenes that he was writing in the piece, and then we would watch the scenes, okay? And we had to start kind of understanding as the audience that this was either real or not real. And that's like a big thing, and we'll get into that more into the production because I think that's going to touch on things there. But the point is, if you started picking up on things that were happening in the scene, AI didn't know how to edit out certain characters that were not supposed to be there. AI didn't know how to make sure that the theme was staying on target. So as a person, you would still have to go back and edit and make sure that what's being said in there works.

And what we were watching were scenes spilling out in his new story, and what was really happening versus what was happening in the book that he was writing is fascinating. I don't know if every audience member got that. There was definitely scenes where I was like, oh, this is very real-seeming. And then there were scenes where I was like, oh, I think we're not in this man's actual life right now. It was very smartly written like that, but as an audience, you've got to follow along. You can't zone out. Yes, I will say some of these scenes were a little heavy at times. They seem to go on for a little while. I get that. They're a little heavy because you have to start figuring out early on what's happening in the show.

And I feel like, do you want to do, like, what do you think happens at the end now? Or should we do it at the end of the podcast? Save it for the end. I think we should go into some direction, actor performances, and some design choices now because I do want to kind of dive into that a little bit. We'll wrap it with some more plot at the end. But let's go there now. But before we do, here's a few messages from those who make the show possible.

[12:10] Richie Grasso: So moving on to some choices here. First of all, I will say this. Robert Downey Jr., I've seen him in films. He's a wonderful presence on stage. I'm with him the whole time. I mean, I still think he's getting comfortable in the role. Give him a few more weeks, he'll get even more comfortable. But I thought he was pretty comfortable already.

[12:27] Jeff Malone: Yeah, but this is his Broadway debut. For someone who's not a stage actor, why I said earlier on in my hot take on this that I was actually blown away by his performance, because it could have been very easy for him not to be good. And he is on that stage the whole time.

[12:43] Richie Grasso: Yeah, totally. The whole time.

[12:45] Jeff Malone: I will also say I've seen Bartlett Sher's work mostly in musical theatre over the last, gosh, many years. He's done some pretty epic revivals of some golden age musicals, most of which I've enjoyed. I was really impressed with the direction of this. We moved from scene to scene effortlessly. It was a hybrid with a sound designer, a projection designer, a lighting designer, and a set designer, and a costume designer all working together.

[13:11] Richie Grasso: Yes.

[13:12] Jeff Malone: Clearly. And it was at the helm of someone who's a Tony Award winner who knows what he's doing. I thought Bart did a nice job with this.

[13:19] Richie Grasso: Yeah, I would say overall from the design portion of this and the creative side of this, this has been a first in a while from Lincoln Center that I feel there was a whole team that was working together in executing this. I mean, the last time was probably the skin of our teeth, that was really great. And then obviously King and I, which was beautiful and magical. But this, for a play, and capturing this more modern, scenic design, and costume design, and overall lighting, I mean, we're seeing some really high tech technology and projections that are happening on this stage.

[14:01] Jeff Malone: And there was something to be said about, I have seen Broadway shows and regional professional shows too where the projection screens berserk out or they glitch for a second. You would think this would have had, you would think we would be reading in the press, oh, McNeal delays previews for tech. But no, everything is flawlessly technologically advanced. The crystal clear videos that are being put up there. I also liked this presence of this looming phone screen clock, and then AI would appear above almost as if it was this godlike, our phones are always with us, AI is always looming, there's always at the fingertips. There was this presence of these huge jumbotron screens that I thought was very impressive in the design of this.

And then it made the actors look like little ants in a good way. Because it made you look like the humans were the smallest thing up there. And even the cabin set was huge. That was a set that was not a digital set. That was a real, actual set that came out. And I actually don't even know where that goes backstage. Because in the park scene, it was like a big, huge, open space.

[15:03] Richie Grasso: We need to see behind.

[15:04] Jeff Malone: I know. I can't believe we've never actually like gone. We have been backstage, but we haven't really been up in the wings.

[15:11] Richie Grasso: Have we though? I feel like I've seen that ship.

[15:14] Jeff Malone: I've been downstairs and on the sides of the theater. I don't know if I've been on the wings of that theater. But I'm trying to say that everything seemed so epic, even the, okay, the doctor's office in the very beginning, that could have just been a table. They put this huge cube out to give us this ambience of like, we are small, and technology is almost big.

[15:35] Richie Grasso: Well, this is what I would like to praise, you know, Bart in doing something like this, because he is really creating that wall for us in deciding, is this real or not? Which is like a major portion of this. And obviously, I'll wait to get into that deeper in my final thoughts on this show. But I see the technology here. And at the helm of this, I feel like you have to think that Jacob McNeil is on the outside, and we are Jacob McNeil, we are watching what's happening in this piece. That's why the tech is at our fingertips and so large. And then everything else is so small and happening on the stage in that way. Does that make sense?

[16:27] Jeff Malone: Yes.

[16:28] Richie Grasso: And I think he really brought that and directed that beautifully, as well as moving these actors on the stage. It's so easy in a play to put actors here and stand and say your lines. They were moving the whole time, they were interacting. There was thrust stage blocking, there was movement, there was diagonal formations of actor moments, there was entrances from all different areas. You're using the space. I always say I want directors more and more to use the space. And he knows how to use that space. He's directed a ton of shows in that space, and that's a wonderful space. It's one of my favorite Broadway theaters.

[17:03] Jeff Malone: And one of my favorite scenes that he directed here was one of the final scenes when they're tech-looking park, and each character comes out. And that was the icing on the cake for me to say, oh, this is not real. This is something else.

[17:22] Richie Grasso: And that just a commentary on the piece about how these actors and the play is having these actors struggle with human desire. We're dealing with life and death scenario, literally. We're dealing with romance, affairs, sexual situations. There's a lot of humanistic things that happen in the piece that AI seems to sometimes know how to handle, and then sometimes doesn't know how to handle. And I think that was fascinating, that even as an audience, we're sitting here watching that there's flaws here, and there's interesting human things that can never be replaced. Human feelings, human emotions, human actions. And speaking of some of these actors while we're on actors, I know we've talked a lot about design.

I mean, listen, Ruthie Miles is great. I wish her part was bigger. I really like her. I loved her presence as the doctor in and out. You kind of have to say, with her role, she kind of sets up this whole positioning of is this real or not? Because the doctor comes in and out. When the podium is being set up for the speech at the beginning, the doctor's there like, why? It's interesting.

[18:27] Jeff Malone: Right. And she has to still play it as the doctor. And there's this looming, another human thing, this looming, you're ill, you're sick, you need to take care of yourself. Because he didn't believe that. And a lot of times we do think like, oh, we can fix everything in the world. Well, sometimes your human body needs to be taken care of more than a lot of things, right?

[18:46] Richie Grasso: I will also say, other than Robert Downey Jr.'s applause entrance, there was one other person that got an applause on their entrance, and it's Miss Andrea Martin.

[18:56] Jeff Malone: Of course. I mean, it's Andrea Martin. That woman is so talented. She could sit up there and read the phone book, and I would think that woman is just so good at what she does. She's playing this just like eccentric publicist agent who's just like, she looks great, by the way. She's acting, she's dropping one liner. She is our comedic relief. And we'll talk Tony talk in a second, but I think that woman could always be Tony nominated, no matter how big or small the role.

[19:23] Richie Grasso: Yes. I mean, she's so seasoned.

[19:25] Jeff Malone: So of course. So it made so sense to have her up there. I thought in general, I thought Melora Harden was very good in her scene.

[19:33] Richie Grasso: She's still kind of a small role. I actually think that, I think this is Britney Bellazari. She was wonderful. A scene stealer. There's so many one liners in there that are so present in today's world, too, especially in media and the things that we hear and things that were coming out of Jacob McNeil's character, that character and what he's saying during that scene. It's like, to hear what he's saying is like, probably many people in that audience, you hear woes and was coming from them saying like, oh my God, I can't believe he said that. But it's like, it's not far off.

[20:13] Jeff Malone: Totally. And I do think it's very well cast. I love seeing Lincoln Center shows where they always have a lead or, you know, and then their supporting characters are so well cast. I will say I wasn't a huge fan of their Uncle Vanya production in the past spring, but they put some really great.

[20:29] Jeff Malone: I think this is a good time to kind of move into our Tony talk and our own experience at the show and what our final thoughts are on this piece. But before we do that, here are a few messages from our advertisers. Okay, and we're back. So let's go into our own experience. First, you know, this show is running an hour and what, 45 minutes. It's great. You're in, you're kind of out. I'm loving that in the play space. You know, if you tackle it and cover everything that needs to be, I feel like an intermission would have interrupted this oddly, right? So I think that it's perfect to have no intermission. You don't really want to start thinking about the piece until later on. So I loved that. How do you feel though, that this play is kind of really appealing to an older generation versus a younger generation?

It's meant for all generations. But with these ticket prices for this because of Robert Downey Jr., it's an extremely hefty ticket price, which leads me to believe that a lot of times it's a little stereotypical to say that the Lincoln Center Theater audiences tend to skew a little older.

[21:40] Richie Grasso: Yeah, and now they're the older generations maybe are the ones that can afford this. Do I think a school group should be going to this? Yes. Do I think Gen Z should be going to this? Yes. The cheapest ticket upstairs is 100 and something dollars. It's not a $50 last row mezzanine ticket. So yeah, I do see this getting some pretty decent reviews, maybe some mixed reviews, but some pretty decent reviews and this is going to run and Robert Downey Jr. is selling it. And I just wish that this would be more approachable to younger people and maybe people who couldn't really because I do think this is for all generations.

[22:26] Jeff Malone: Yeah, because I feel like there's an issue here in the sense that this validates the older generation's opinion on technology and AI, but it helps the younger generation understand how we can still use it. But we have to be smart on how we use it.

[22:42] Richie Grasso: Yep. Yep. So it's interesting about, I mean, I feel like that's a big topic for debate between anyone that does see the show on like where do they see AI fitting?

[22:53] Jeff Malone: Yes. And I also want to say that I feel like this show, what Jamie Lloyd's about to do with Sunset Boulevard, what this is doing with technology, we cannot be afraid of technology and theatre. A lot of people are not. Believe me, there's plenty of directors, producers, designers that are not afraid of technology. Excuse me, but I do feel like we need not everything needs to be big projections AI. I'm not saying that, but a little bit more of this in this space. Look at the incredible technology of effects we're seeing in Harry Potter. Like we're seeing a lot in the special effects. We need to keep pushing the boundaries in live theatre and try and fail and try and fail. But this is trying and succeeding.

And let's get the budgets and the money behind these big pieces and not be afraid of AI and telling stories of AI, not be afraid of some of these. And also, let's talk about one thing, too, by placing this in the proper house. I think the Vivian Beaumont was the perfect Broadway house for this piece. You're in probably one of the most modern theatres on Broadway right now, giving it that more intimate space. I mean, you could sit in any seat in the Vivian Beaumont and you're not in a bad seat there. So it just works. So applaud that as well.

[24:13] Richie Grasso: The experience is wonderful there. I love their lobby. I love going to see a show in Lincoln Center. It just feels like I'm almost not in New York City because it's so open concept. Everything's open feeling. We're not crammed on 45th Street, busting through people like, you know, there's nothing wrong with that either. But it's just like a different environment. I mean, if you're in an old Broadway house, it takes you out of the element of being in this more modern day. And like the Vivian Beaumont doesn't have that, you know, it just has that sense of moment there. But and we're talking about Tony talk a little bit. I do think this show is a it's a little early still for the season. I hope it gets remembered in Tony Awards. If it does, I do think it could get a Best Play nomination. I do think Robert Downey Jr. can get a Best Actor nomination. And I really do think Andrea Martin could get a supporting actress nomination. I do.

[25:01] Jeff Malone: And I do think it will get a bunch of creative nominations. I think it would get set design, lighting design, sound design. Maybe a director. I do think she has a chance. I know they have another show, Floyd Collins, coming in the spring, which is a musical. I don't think Bart's doing that. But for play, I think he could totally, you know, right now my two for Michael Hurwitz and Bartlett Sher for play totally would get nominated. But there's so many. I said to you when we walked out of here, there could be 10 more plays announced for the spring. And organizations like Roundabout and Lincoln Center Theatre and Second Stage and Manhattan Theatre Club. I don't want to say they all do this, but a lot of them put their we hope we get the Tony Award show in the spring.

There was a reason why I think the Rachel McAdams show last year for MTC was in the spring and not the fall. I just think there's sometimes where they slot the right things. And Lincoln Center may be looking at us and saying, we don't really care about Tony Awards for this because we'd rather look at Tony Awards for Floyd Collins. Maybe we don't know what those rooms are like, because then why wasn't Floyd Collins now and McNeil in the spring? Was it a Robert Downey Jr. scheduling issue? Who knows? We'll never really know. So and we now know that our artistic direction is coming after this year for Lincoln Center Theatre. And so it'll be very interesting to see, do we see more McNeils? Do we see more Floyd Collins?

Or do we see more of the King and I's and the Camelot's? Well, I mean, we're putting Lear there, so I'm pretty sure it's going to be the latter of what you're saying. We're going to get more of that Golden Age Broadway, which people love and love to see at Lincoln Center Theatre. And we're not getting a ton of Golden Age downtown in the 40s. We are with Mattress and things, but we are getting most of the revivals in Lincoln Center. But I think a new cutting edge play like this is great for Lincoln Center. Of course, you know, so yeah, so.

[26:50] Jeff Malone: Oh my gosh, we're getting ready to wrap up. But I know we want to kind of final wrap up our thoughts on McNeil here. So what are your final thoughts on just this pretty epic piece here?

[26:59] Richie Grasso: I wanted to do the kind of ending what you think happens in the end here. And I think my full opinion is that anything that we actually saw on the stage was fake. It was AI written and none of that happened. The only part that actually happened was when Jacob McNeil, this is the big spoiler, walks down into the audience and is looking at what happened. That was the only time that it was actually him.

[27:28] Jeff Malone: Yeah. Yeah, it could very well be. And I think that was a great, okay, here's a Bart moment using the aisles of the audience. Remember at the very end of My Fair Lady when she left him and went up the steps? And it was such a big deal because she like, you know, oh my God, that never happens in My Fair Lady. And it was that moment like, whoa, she's looking back on her story. So him being in the audience was totally that moment of like, what do you think? Now let's ask AI to wrap this up. And we'll put a little cherry on the cake, like Shakespeare's The Tempest. And it was beautifully written as AI seemed to have written that on the wall and he read it.

[28:02] Richie Grasso: Yes, I agree. Because there was a moment where he started to walk down into the audience and then he went back. It was almost like he was trying to walk away from the AI and then he couldn't. He had to go back to it. Yeah. So when we actually see him coming later down into the stairs, you're supposed to say, oh wait, none of that actually happened. And that was all created for the story.

[28:29] Jeff Malone: Totally. And I will say overall, I feel like it was smart that way. It's smart playwriting and it's smart direction. And it's two people working together saying there's potential here to do some cool stuff.

[28:43] Richie Grasso: Yeah. Well, and I just love that it's a topic that's like new. At the same time as maybe this is a critique of AI, maybe it's not. Or playwrights in general or both who were following a scene, you're like, oh, this seems so real. Wait, now it doesn't. Oh, wait, this seems like this would happen. Wait, what's happening? Yeah. And if you're feeling that in a play, we also kind of feel that when we read something from how many times you read something and you're like, I think this was AI. We're humans. We can kind of see, well, they use these words. Yeah. I never hear it in daily language or they repeated the same word three times and three different, you know, like there's things we pick up on now.

So, yeah, yeah, it was smart. And overall, I did enjoy this. I guess I just thought it was a nicely crafted the whole thing. Yeah. I was puzzlingly surprised because some were saying mixed things about it prior. So going in with that, I actually think it helped me kind of just sit and be more intrigued to actually watch the piece. I kind of love hearing like someone didn't like something or people aren't liking something because then I try to go in and figure out why. And when I do do that, I'm like, oh, wait, I actually like this. What are they talking about? I have the opposite reaction when I see someone say, oh, I loved this. Amazing. I love it. And then I go in, I'm like, wait, is it me or am I not loving this as much as this person told me?

Although a lot of times I'll agree. But if I don't agree, I'll be like, wait, what am I missing here? You know, so that's what makes theater so wonderful is we all have different interpretations and feelings. Can't wait to talk about this one with people.

[30:14] Jeff Malone: Well, that does wrap up our discussion of this episode. We hope you enjoyed our deep dive into McNeil. We're going to share the link with ticket information in our description here. And remember, we want to hear from you. Continue the conversation with us on Instagram at Half Hour Podcast and let us know your thoughts on McNeil. And if you enjoyed our show, please leave us a review. Your feedback helps us bring more theater to you. And remember, you can listen to past episodes and stay tuned for upcoming ones as well. Until next time, I'm Jeff.

[30:39] Richie Grasso: And I'm Richie saying ta-ta for now.

[30:41] Jeff Malone: Bye.