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[0:01] Ben Rimalower: The Diva Draft.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: As Patti's Reno Sweeney used to say, the world has gone a little mad today, so let's look at Broadway in a broader way. With broads like Liza, Bette, and Stritch, we're two gays who were Marilyn May-fitched. With us a couple cast-offs, we're gonna give it to you straight. A couple cast-offs whose favorite thing to do is to appreciate. Let's name that belt and feel the thrill of another rousing round of Dolly concert kid-a-lat. Cast-offs in Broadway Diva Team.

[0:49] Ben Rimalower: Cast-offs for me.

[0:53] Ben Rimalower: With Ben and Daniel. Who do you think you are? Welcome to Bet- No! Welcome to Cast-Offs, Episode 1. The Final Frontier. Cast-offs on the Broadway Podcast Network. I am Ben Rimalower, and I am here with the lovely and talented Daniel Nolan.

[1:19] Daniel Nolan: Hey, y'all. Oh, my goodness. It's like a whole new world for us. It's so weird not being Broken Records anymore. We are cast-offs. But you know what, girl? You will always be my Broken Records brother from here until the cows come home.

[1:35] Ben Rimalower: And I do mean Elaine Page. Patti would approve.

[1:40] Daniel Nolan: Bullshit! Chris Harper pays my salary.

[1:44] Ben Rimalower: I... Okay, so I... At this point, whenever this comes out, this will be old news.

[1:49] Daniel Nolan: No, no, no, Daniel. This will always be hot tea. What Patti LuPone hath spake is forever important.

[1:58] Ben Rimalower: The pat-tea.

[2:00] Daniel Nolan: Yes, yeah. That's what we should call this pod. Is it too late? Is it too late?

[2:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, now we're just getting used to saying cast-offs. I... Yeah, I could not even watch the whole thing because it just made me so uncomfortable when Patti goes off on the woman, I guess, not wearing her mask fully.

[2:20] Daniel Nolan: I love that it's someone who was wearing it just not over the nose, you know?

[2:24] Ben Rimalower: I know, I know. It really just gets ya. Like, the woman is not even like, masks are bullshit. Trump won the election. The woman's like, it keeps slipping! And Patti's like, no! Patti was just so vicious. And I have to say, I mean, I do... I have been... I mean, I would not have, you know, spoken that way back to Patti. I would have been like, oh my God, I'm so sorry.

[2:46] Daniel Nolan: But I have been in that... Although that is not what you said to the bartender at the Blue Whale on trivia night in 2020.

[2:56] Ben Rimalower: That's true, that's true. However, if Patti would have been bartending for that night, I would have most definitely changed my tune.

[3:02] Daniel Nolan: I do believe you. But, no, similarly, I was at... I went and saw How I Learned to Drive a couple weeks ago, which I loved.

[3:10] Ben Rimalower: I saw it yesterday. So good.

[3:12] Daniel Nolan: I did not have that good of a time.

[3:14] Ben Rimalower: Oh, no?

[3:15] Daniel Nolan: I mean, it's not a fun play, but I just thought it was such... So well done. I don't know. Like, hollow vocal plays always make me laugh so hard. And, like, this one...

[3:24] Ben Rimalower: Like, what row were you in?

[3:26] Daniel Nolan: I was in the orchestra, but like, the second to last row.

[3:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I was pretty far back in the orchestra, too. And I kept thinking, oh, if I was, like, in row G, I'd be having such a better night.

[3:35] Daniel Nolan: Well, didn't you feel like... I felt like the actors weren't mic'd.

[3:38] Ben Rimalower: I feel like it was old school, like...

[3:39] Daniel Nolan: You said that. They were mic'd. But it was... It might not have been body mic'd. It was definitely, like, an acoustic effect.

[3:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I need, like, full body mics, like, headphones. Like, I feel so old. Like, I'm just used to, like, listening to my music on full blast. But when I go to the theater, I want, like, my personal earphone. Like, I want it to be, like, loud.

[3:59] Daniel Nolan: Same. Well, you know, there is an assisted listening device available, too.

[4:03] Ben Rimalower: I should get that. But the thing is also, though, Daniel, I think that that is a comment on the either failure or at least limited success of this production. Because I think you felt that way not purely about volume level. I think you felt that way because I think it's an off-Broadway play meant for an off-Broadway house. And putting it on Broadway, by the way, with the original off-Broadway lead actors and director, and I feel like it didn't resonate in that room. Literally and figuratively, you know?

[4:37] Daniel Nolan: I mean, I loved the play other than that. And I honestly, though, the sound quality thing, I felt that same way about A Strange Loop, which was, like, my most favorite thing I've ever seen. I felt like the sound was weird.

[4:49] Ben Rimalower: People keep saying that.

[4:51] Daniel Nolan: I've actually read that a lot. I mean, I didn't feel that way at all. Although I did sometimes find it a little hard to understand the lyrics. And, like, I know that, like, CD, like, back and front.

[5:02] Ben Rimalower: That's what it was. It wasn't so necessarily, like, a volume problem, like, How I Learned to Drive. It was more of, like, clarity.

[5:13] Daniel Nolan: But I always feel that way in musicals. And not just when they're starring Patricia LuPone. But, you know, I felt that way when I saw, I took a friend of mine to see Phantom the other day. And it was the first time I'd seen Phantom in New York.

[5:30] Ben Rimalower: And that theater it's in, The Imperial? No. The Majestic.

[5:34] Daniel Nolan: The Majestic. It's a pretty small theater for Phantom. And I was sitting in about the exact same kind of six-throwback orchestra center seat that I had for Strange Loop. And I felt that same way. Phantom, like, it felt very muddled. It sounded very muddled. And I wonder if it's just, like, acoustically, like, that's a bad seat in the theater?

[5:56] Ben Rimalower: I don't know if it's the seat. I think that, like, these... I think the sound design is, like, a wonky, like, art. And it's, like, art and science. And, like, I don't think every night comes together well. I think that the subtle balance that they find in previews and in tech rehearsal when there's one understudy in the cast or there's a different amount of people in the theater, it throws it off. I think actors singing at a different strength level one night to the next night taking a breath in a different place, I think it all changes the balance. And the board ops don't necessarily have either the ability or maybe no one would to ride that and adjust accordingly all the time.

[6:43] Daniel Nolan: Well, speaking of muddled and lack of clarity, back to Patti.

[6:45] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Okay, so, but I will say when I went and saw How I Learned to Drive, I was rushing there from happy hour with my friend. We, you know, got in under the wire. We're, like, rushing to get to our seats in the second-to-back orchestra row. And my mask had slipped down. And this guy next to me, like, just being such a Karen, he was like, can you please put your mask all the way on? And I was just like, okay, calm down. Like, I'm, I will. I just, you know, and I get it. People are very sensitive. But it was like, and he was also doing that thing where, like, every time, like, my arm touched the armrest, he would, like, wince away. And I was like, bitch, like, I'm not getting up in your space. He was like an old, an old bitter queen, I could tell.

[7:30] Daniel Nolan: I saw my future a bit, too. That was me, actually. Do you know who was at How I Learned to Drive with me last night, though? Pardon me. Not with me. This is a fun game. Let's all go, let's all go, let's go through who we've seen at the shows we've gone to.

[7:48] Ben Rimalower: Well, I was with Erin Markey, who's a star in her own right. Love her. But the person in the house, as well, making a spectacle of herself, standing up and shouting, like, ten rows away to someone else, uh-oh, was none other than proud Emmy and Tony winner Jane Krakowski.

[8:09] Daniel Nolan: Oh, fabulous. I love her.

[8:11] Ben Rimalower: I love seeing her out so much because she's one of those people you know, there are some people you see them in the wild and you're like, who is that, like, punched-over little person? You're like, oh, it's Sarah Jessica Parker. But when you see Jane Krakowski, it's like, oh, wow. Who is that Emmy-winning star, Jane Krakowski? Who is that tall, blonde, like, bombshell? Like, she just radiates star power.

[8:39] Daniel Nolan: Star power and also, like, Donna Murphy, Dolly Levi-ness. Like, I mean, speaking of great Dolly Levi's that never were, like, Jane Krakowski has been, I mean, not that it's too late. She's got decades upon decades. But she was born. Come down that staircase.

[8:55] Ben Rimalower: Totally. Well, and I, the one time I've seen her in the wild was at Club Cumming. And it was for, I happened to be there the same night that they had the Schmigadoon, like, cast party. And, you know, everyone's there, like, you know, drinking, singing, going to the bathroom. I actually, that was, I also met Ariana DeBose that night, pre-Oscar.

[9:17] Daniel Nolan: Speaking of the bathroom.

[9:18] Ben Rimalower: Speaking of the bathroom. Ariana DeBose was my favorite person I met that night. She was so sweet and friendly. But Jane Krakowski came in. She sat at the same table all night and sipped on the same little glass of champagne all night. Never went to the bathroom. That's how you know it's a star.

[9:34] Daniel Nolan: They never go to the john in a public place.

[9:37] Ben Rimalower: I love that she sat at the table the whole time. Like, is she a tourist? I mean, I feel so connected.

[9:41] Daniel Nolan: Yeah, I mean, it was very Dolly Levi. It was like she was sitting on the inside at the booth. And she was, like, holding court the whole night.

[9:47] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes. Sipping on the same little bottle, little glass of champagne. She didn't even finish it. It's like, that's a star.

[9:54] Daniel Nolan: That is a star. You come in. You, you, you, you know, sit there and nurse a drink. And you don't get messy. And then you leave and go home and drink in private. That's how you do it.

[10:05] Ben Rimalower: Who were you messy to that night, by the way? You told me a funny story about accosting someone.

[10:12] Daniel Nolan: Oh, yes. Oh, my God. So, unfortunately, Kristen was not there. But most of the rest of the cast of Schmigadoon was there, including Cecily Strong.

[10:23] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah.

[10:23] Daniel Nolan: And she sang, I think she sang Men That Got Away. And it was actually really good. You know, she has a very kind of raw, like, natural voice. And singing that song with the emotion of it, it was just, like, really great. And the only person that I could think to compare it to was, like, a young Carrie Fisher. Like, when you hear Carrie singing Bridge Over Troubled Water in that Carrie Debbie doc, it's just, like, a very natural, raw, like, untrained. And I was, like, drunk, drunk, drunk, drunk. And I was, like, oh, my God, Cecily, you sound amazing. I was, like, you know who you remind me of? It was Carrie Fisher. I was, like, have you... She was, like, oh, my God, I love her. I was, like, have you seen that documentary?

She was, like, no, but I need to. I was, like, yes, you do. I was, like, I just was so good. And she was, like, thank you. And then she did the thing where she, like, kind of turned back away making it very clear that, like, she was done with my company, which I appreciated.

[11:19] Ben Rimalower: Well, you also sound, in that moment, like her, in her, like, drunk girl at a party character.

[11:25] Daniel Nolan: Yes, it was very that. It was very meta. So, um, anyway. But that was the one time I saw Jane. So, I, let's see. Who have I seen lately? I went to, oh, when I saw A Strange Loop, speaking of Schmigadoon, in the same row, just a couple down from me, were Ann Harada with her friend, Julia Murney.

[11:48] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yes. Friend of the pod.

[11:50] Daniel Nolan: Friend of the pod. And then, uh, both friends. They were sitting right in front of Bernie Telsey. And they kept turning around and talking. Bernie, Bernie!

[11:59] Ben Rimalower: Oh my! I know. Our friend, JJ, who I was with, he was, like, oh my God, Bernie's here. And I was, like, what the? I was, like, where? Where? I was, like, am I wearing my sweatshirt? Like, Bernie Sanders is, like, no, I'm so sorry. My Dolly Levi choice. And it was Bernie Telsey.

[12:11] Daniel Nolan: At least it wasn't Bernie Gerson, R.I.P. Or Bernie Feldstein.

[12:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. We'll get to her. My favorite, which I'm sure I've told you, of seeing someone at a theater, was when our friend Ken and I went to see Sideshow, the revival of Sideshow.

[12:28] Daniel Nolan: Oh, yes. I loved it.

[12:30] Ben Rimalower: And we were there, like, really early. And we were just, like, talking in our seats. And the guy in front of me, speaking of, like, old, bitter queens at the theater, not me and Ken. Don't talk about Ken that way. He's not going to like that. He turned around to me and the ever-youthful Ken and was, like, excuse me, your voice really carries. Would you mind keeping it down? And, of course, me, you know, as, like, an alcoholic and criminal, like, always just guilty. I was, like, I'm sorry, doctor. I'm sorry, doctor.

[13:02] Daniel Nolan: And Ken was, like, all pissed off about it. And I was, like, don't say anything. He'll know we're talking about him. And we're just, like, whispering to each other. And then I happened to see across the theater Scott Whitman coming down the aisle. And I'm, like, oh my God, with Patti LuPone. And so they are seated, like, a whole middle section away from us. But I'm, like, I have to go say hi to Patti. It was still only, like, 745 or 645 or whatever. So I, like, go over. And I'm, like, talking to Scott and Patti. And I tell them what happened. And Patti's, like, you're allowed to talk now. And she's, like, where's Ken? And I, like, point to Ken, who, of course, is, like, watching me, like, talk to Patti. And so she's, like, hi, Ken. I'll be, like, ways back. And then she says, you're allowed to talk now.

[14:01] Daniel Nolan: I like that Patti likes to, she shames in equal measure. You know, she shames people for breaking theater etiquette and protocol. And then she shames the shamers.

[14:07] Ben Rimalower: Yes. She's really, she's what we were lacking in American politics. Just like, well, that's why she was Bernie Sanders in our famous Democratic primary Broadway divas analogy.

[14:15] Daniel Nolan: Yes, our famous that. Anyway, so I love that story. I've never seen Patti at a show. But I also saw when I went and saw POTUS, which I thought was hilarious. And I loved it. And I'm so happy Rachel Dratch is nominated.

[14:31] Ben Rimalower: And Julie White. Wait, what's her name? Julie White? Is that it?

[14:33] Daniel Nolen: Julie White.

[14:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I sat next to, like, right next to, like, we were sharing the armrest, Jackie Hoffman.

[14:41] Daniel Nolen: And when I sat down, I said, you know, everyone's wearing masks, so it's kind of hard to tell.

[14:47] Ben Rimalower: So I was like, Oh my goodness, are you living legend Jackie Hoffman?

[14:50] Daniel Nolen: She said, Honey, I'm neither living nor a legend. But yes.

[14:55] Ben Rimalower: I said, Well, I said, Well, whatever you are, whoever you are, it's an honor to be sitting next to you. And she said, You too. Do you know what Jackie Hoffman said to me when I gave her a postcard for Patty Issues? We were doing some, like, a variety show or something at Ars Nova together. And we were like at the bar afterwards. And I put out a Patty Issues postcard. And she's like, Why is it called Patty Issues? And I was like, Well, it's like an analogy for, you know, sorry, it's like, you know, it's a play on Daddy Issues, because it's about my relationship with my father and my obsession with Patti LuPone. And she goes, Well, why don't you call it Daddy LuPone? You're like, Well, that's what I call Patty.

[15:46] Daniel Nolen: I love that. Yeah. I'm trying to think. I mean, I don't think I can think of anyone else I saw. However, what have you seen lately that you want to shout out or that you want to take a shot at?

[15:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, I would like to empty my bowels upon the much anticipated and greatly widely derided first ever Broadway revival of Funny Girl.

[16:16] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, as the redundant tagline says, back on Broadway for the first time, or not redundant, but it's whatever you call it, the opposite.

[16:25] Ben Rimalower: Well, as I said in my June-July theater column in MetroSource magazine, a joke that I tried and bombed with at our weekly live variety show cast offs that I will try again here. The thing about it is, it ain't funny, girl.

[16:42] Daniel Nolen: That is so true, which is so sad because that was kind of the consolation prize we were hoping to get from this production.

[16:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Nobody was like, She's going to sing it better than that stupid Barbara.

[16:55] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That stupid movie star, whatever her name is.

[17:00] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it's not very funny, but honestly, it's worse than how not funny she is.

[17:06] Daniel Nolen: Because she's funny. She's funny if she were a supporting role in Legally Blonde.

[17:13] Ben Rimalower: She's funny to be in some replacement cast of Wicked.

[17:17] Daniel Nolen: Well, she's a funny character, actress type that can play the funny comic relief.

[17:25] Ben Rimalower: Her part in Hello, Dolly. But I mean, comic relief is generous. I feel like Jackie Hoffman is comic relief. I don't think she's Jackie Hoffman.

[17:33] Daniel Nolen: Right, right. But, you know, she could play like a good like 8-0 Annie or someone like that.

[17:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, like in regional theater. But the thing is, like, but and so it's like it's but it worse than for me, worse than the fact that she's like not that funny and worse than the fact that like she really can't sing it. I mean, she like sort of can like hit the notes, but it's the weakest vocal performance. You can't just hit the notes. You've got to fucking slap them.

[18:02] Daniel Nolen: The only people I've heard sing worse than her on Broadway are like people that are huge stars who were cast despite not being able to sing like Glenn Close and Sunset Boulevard.

[18:13] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[18:14] Daniel Nolen: You know, but like the only but the thing that's worse for me than the bad singing and the lack of like comic prowess is that like, she's not like a force. Like, very much like Dolly Levi or Evita Peron, you know, like you want a or Mama Rose.

[18:34] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:35] Daniel Nolen: Fanny Bryce, you know, or oddly, Laura Benanti and all of her new roles.

[18:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:41] Daniel Nolen: Like a galvanizing force that just like is like domineering all the other characters to get what she wants.

[18:48] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[18:48] Daniel Nolen: And being is more like self-deprecating and like cutesy and apologetic.

[18:52] Ben Rimalower: Ugh, I hate that shit. Well, and and it's almost I almost am offended by it just because this is like the excuse we've been given, rightfully so, for so many years for not having a Funny Girl revival is that like, you know, there's no one right for it. And we don't have it was it was written for Barbara. So like no one's, you know, it's just as much about Barbara is about Fanny. And so there's been kind of that dilemma. And now with Beanie, I was like, okay, finally, they figured it out, the weight will be worth it, blah, blah, blah, like, you know, we could have had Gaga, we could have had Idina, whoever, but no, it's Beanie. And I'm sure they have a reason for it. And now it's like, completely. And, you know, it's not worth it. And it's anticlimactic.

[19:35] Daniel Nolen: It's like, we could have had Gaga is like, I feel like they offered it to Gaga. And like, you know, they probably tried. It's not really anyone's fault, other than like, Gaga, like making too much damn money than to do this, like piss shit. And also, the truth is, no matter who it was, like, maybe even Gaga, who probably is like the number one best choice on earth, like, even Gaga would have suffered some comparisons negatively, you know, negative comparison to Barbara, because no one is Barbara. And even if someone were as good as Barbara, because Barbara did it first, we're just going to hear it Barbara's way. And it's going to sound slightly wrong to some people, you know, and like, We're all just people.

[20:19] Ben Rimalower: But we're not, you know, and like, I think like, maybe in a way the good news is now if some like great Broadway talent like Jesse Mueller, you know, or Idina Menzel or whoever were to do it next, like, you know, when Idina is 60, like, then, like, I feel like maybe it won't be as much of like a death by comparison to Barbara.

[20:42] Daniel Nolen: Totally. You know what else I was thinking, speaking of How I Learned to Drive, as I was watching How I Learned to Drive, which is kind of like a memory play, you know, and Mary Louise goes back kind of and relives her childhood.

[20:54] Ben Rimalower: Hello, gorgeous.

[20:55] Daniel Nolen: But she is like, like her current age. There's no like second person for her flashbacks. And I was thinking that's how I would stage Funny Girl is I would I would fucking hire Barbara to do it now. She wouldn't. But I would hire someone.

[21:10] Ben Rimalower: Liza.

[21:11] Daniel Nolen: Liza to do it, literally. And it's like,

[21:13] Ben Rimalower: In a wheelchair.

[21:14] Daniel Nolen: Literally a memory.

[21:16] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, Gaga pushes Liza around in the wheelchair and they share it.

[21:21] Daniel Nolen: They both play Fanny. Gaga's young Fanny.

[21:25] Ben Rimalower: Liza's like Rose, like the old Rose in Titanic, Gaga's the young Fanny. But I was like, Funny Girl should be staged like a memory play where it's like Fanny at like 50 or 60, like going back and like reliving all these moments and kind of like a Christmas carol style, like visiting all the ghosts.

[21:44] Daniel Nolen: It basically is that. It's just that they don't cast it that way.

[21:48] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[21:49] Daniel Nolen: Like instead, she's supposed to be like 37 at the end, but she could easily be 70.

[21:56] Ben Rimalower: Totally. And I mean, nowadays, it's like I approve of kind of casting older anyway.

[22:03] Daniel Nolen: Oh, for sure. I mean, this is a great transition, actually, to today's like

[22:06] Ben Rimalower: Totally, yes.

[22:07] Daniel Nolen: Because our topic, because this is like, I would say, like one of the tenets of the cast off cinematic universe is that we always would rather see a woman of a certain age in the role.

[22:19] Ben Rimalower: I don't care if Rose technically needs to still be of childbearing age. I want to see Angela Lansbury revisit it.

[22:31] Daniel Nolen: Totally, totally. Well, it's like this is the stage, you know, it's this isn't film. This isn't Hollywood. Like, if we have anything on Broadway that we can, if there's any leeway, it's with something like that.

[22:45] Ben Rimalower: You know, it's, um, it's different. So anyway, okay. So making our transition, today's, uh, topic or today's theme is the divas draft or I was thinking divas on draft. That might be a cute, a cute way to say it.

[23:03] Daniel Nolen: But we also, we're also doing another draft next. I don't remember what that one is, but maybe that one is, would be better with the on draft. We could actually call, I mean, we're going to have a lot of on draft. That's one of the main styles of podcast episode we're going to be doing on cast offs. So maybe that's a good short way to call all of the draft episodes for anyone that isn't familiar with like fantasy football draft kind of games and fun.

[23:31] Ben Rimalower: That is what we are going to be doing with divas where, um, basically Daniel and I, uh, do not both get to have the same people on our list.

[23:42] Daniel Nolen: So it's kind of like, as we go back and forth, if Daniel says Oprah, then I do not have access to Oprah for my draft.

[23:51] Ben Rimalower: Right. So we're each choosing our, our top five diva draft picks. And, um, do we have any criteria for this? Like, is it, do they have to have been on Broadway or is it just like anyone?

[24:04] Daniel Nolen: Well, um, it would be convenient for me for my choices, uh, to limit it to people that have at least have done Broadway because that way, um, it feels like really unruly. Like if I have to start including Aretha Franklin and Maria Callas, then it's like so overwhelming. And then at that point, what's a diva? Like, is Nancy Pelosi my Yas queen? You know, I know Daniel wouldn't even include her if it was like past female democratic speakers of my favorite, my favorite female Democrat.

[24:42] Ben Rimalower: Um, okay. So only been on Broadway. Uh, does that include concerts or only like musicals?

[24:50] Daniel Nolen: I, I think we could just make it simple if they have appeared on Broadway in any way that counts, you know?

[24:58] Ben Rimalower: Gotcha. Gotcha.

[25:01] Daniel Nolen: All right. And we'll probably discuss this at length at Cast Offs every Monday, our Cast Offs live show every Monday at Clubcoming at 8 p.m. Um, I'm sure we'll talk about this with the audience there and maybe we'll get some of their diva drafts.

[25:17] Ben Rimalower: Okay. So I guess like we got to decide who goes first. I assumed you would go first.

[25:22] Daniel Nolen: Well, I appreciate that. But should we like rock, paper, scissors? Like, is there a more?

[25:27] Ben Rimalower: Oh, that's fun. We can do that.

[25:29] Daniel Nolen: Cause we are, uh, we're, even though we're not broadcasting this in video.

[25:33] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[25:33] Daniel Nolen: I chose the option video, but not filmed. Stay tuned soon for the video portion for Caroline Hale and all our, all our friends.

[25:43] Ben Rimalower: Yes. All our friends overseas.

[25:46] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Okay. So let's do rock, paper, scissors.

[25:49] Ben Rimalower: All right.

[25:50] Daniel Nolen: Rock, paper, scissors.

[25:54] Ben Rimalower: You did paper too?

[25:55] Daniel Nolen: We both did paper.

[25:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Oh, wait, are we doing one, two, three or one, two, three?

[25:59] Daniel Nolen: Shoot.

[26:00] Ben Rimalower: Uh, I thought it was just one, two, three.

[26:01] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Let's do one, two, three.

[26:02] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[26:04] Daniel Nolen: Rock, paper, scissors.

[26:09] Ben Rimalower: Both rock.

[26:09] Daniel Nolen: Okay.

[26:11] Ben Rimalower: This is, this is going great.

[26:14] Daniel Nolen: Rock, paper, scissors.

[26:19] Ben Rimalower: I win!

[26:19] Daniel Nolen: Oh, you win. You got paper.

[26:21] Ben Rimalower: I got rock.

[26:22] Daniel Nolen: All right.

[26:23] Ben Rimalower: All right. This was the best day of my life. I told you, I, you know, mercury and retro is in retrograde, but I feel like my luck is finally turning around.

[26:30] Daniel Nolen: Well, maybe for you, mercury and retrograde is good.

[26:34] Ben Rimalower: I didn't know if that was a thing, but I must consult my astrologist.

[26:38] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[26:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Well, okay. So, uh, my pick, my number one pick on the divas list, uh, people, uh, who have ever had, um, sexual intercourse with me will not be surprised to know. It's the same name you call out during sex. It is Taylor Maxx pronoun. Uh, it is the reason I'm a friend of Dorothy. It is the greatest entertainer in history. Uh, Judy Garland.

[27:05] Daniel Nolen: Wonderful. Wonderful. I love it.

[27:08] Ben Rimalower: I have a big, big 24 by 36 poster of her right here on the wall.

[27:12] Daniel Nolen: Uh, I love that. Thank you for, um, uh, cause I really would have just started off with you going first. And I feel like you probably would have done Judy. And I was thinking today before our first one of these, I was like, it's so weird. Like usually when Daniel and I talk about stuff in my like codependent way, I'm like nervous. We won't agree about everything. And I like, just want us to like, like be like, just like one person always on the exact same page. And then I, it's because of my childhood, but then I was like, I was like, no, this is going to be really healthy for me because actually like it behooves me to like, never have the same thought as Daniel.

[27:50] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[27:50] Ben Rimalower: No, it's like, yeah, this is, we are totally having to like, um, uh, go our own way by my, by ourselves, if you will. But also we have to make it work, you know? So we, so we each get, um, it is pretty funny though, that it took like four rounds of rock, paper, scissors for us to not do the same.

[28:11] Daniel Nolen: Right, right, right. Um, well that would have been my, my top as well, but, um, I'm, I'm just glad someone got it.

[28:20] Ben Rimalower: You have no trouble finding tops.

[28:22] Daniel Nolen: Honey, although it's getting harder, it's getting harder, the older I get.

[28:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, just wait.

[28:30] Daniel Nolen: Okay. So, hmm, now I'm like, do I want to go with my heart or do I want to be strategic?

[28:36] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I feel like I'm about to get, speaking of tops, fucked in the ass. I mean, I could be really, really shitty and shoot and choose, um, someone who I love, but someone who I know I don't love quite as much as you. But that's, you know, the game isn't choosing just your favorites. It's Matthew Johnson does not love that woman as much as I do.

[31:32] Ben Rimalower: And I think she's amazing, gives such moving, emotional performances in Funny Girl, The Way We Were, Prince of Tides, Hello Dolly. So I just love her so much. I still list, she's always, every year, somewhere in my top five most played on Spotify. I think she was my top of the decade a couple years ago on Spotify. And, you know, I definitely question her taste level, and I have problems with some of her choices and some of her politics.

[32:02] Daniel Nolen: Laura Ashley has problems with some of her choices.

[32:05] Ben Rimalower: Totally. And I've, you know, I've read my Passion for Design cover to cover. I've made notes. And, you know, I love it so much because not only does she talk about, you know, the molding and the rugs and the lamps that she bought and where she hides the TV, all that stuff, but she also just slips in little like grievances she has that she hasn't processed with her construction manager and all the men who messed up the molding and the electrical outlets. And she has photo evidence of like how it wasn't perfect. And, you know, it's, she's always like, you know, I'm not a perfectionist. Like, you would never say that to a man. And I'm like, well, I would if he was a perfectionist like you.

[32:51] Daniel Nolen: Wait, I have a question, because I would have thought you only read that book for laughs. And I certainly knew that you often question her taste. It's one of my favorite things you do. But I'm curious, what are the notes that you have taken whilst reading My Passion for Design?

[33:11] Ben Rimalower: Well, I'm actually, I'm, as you know, I've been working on a Barbara-related project for the last few years. And so that really helped inform that project. But also, I just, all the notes I was taking, they were not design-related at all. They were more like, she's so crazy. Like, she's so neurotic. Like, let it go. I have a question for you also, though. Like, I don't really, I don't think I know this. Like, what is your, like, Barbara, like, discovery moment?

[33:38] Daniel Nolen: Um, it was, well, it was kind of like Judy for me. Like, I mean, Judy, I definitely discovered, I loved Judy so much as a kid, but it was only through Wizard of Oz. And that was like the extent of my knowledge. But I, like, like all of us, I loved Wizard of Oz. And similarly, Barbara, I got to know her through What's Up Doc, which was a movie my parents showed us when I was very young. And you know, Madeleine Kahn, it's so great. But I wasn't, I didn't know the extent of Barbara's stardom and her talent. You know, my mom would sometimes listen to Barbara, you know, her Christmas records. Or I think we watched Funny Girl when I was little, but I was just like, this is too long. So it really wasn't until probably I would say college where I really bought, you know, I got my record player, I bought some Barbara vinyls, and I really started discovering, like, early Streisand.

And then of course, and I had seen The Way We Were, I think, but I went and I, with new eyes, you know, as a, as a, you know, mid 20-something, I started watching Funny Girl, and I rewatched all of the early movies. And then a lot of the later ones, which are not my favorites. But I don't know, it just really, I was so, I can remember when I was just like driving in my parents' van, which is the car I drove after college and during college, their old white minivan, I would drive it to my summer job every day. And I would always, in the CD player, I would have like the essential Barbara Streisand record that or CD that I had stolen from my mom. And I would just play through it on a loop. And I just every song just more thrilling and more thrilling, you know, from Asleep in B, Cry Me a River, to People, of course, and then of course, like, A Piece of Sky, and All is Fair in Love.

You know, there's so many really thrilling, vocally thrilling songs that she's performed. And then right before I moved to Brooklyn, I finally bought, like, I think they were sold out, actually. And I found one on StubHub, like, her like, Back to Brooklyn tour that was happening like a month after I moved here.

[36:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, which as she says, as she sings in the rewritten version, she performs of As If We Never Said Goodbye. And this time it's at Barclays. I cannot believe it. Anyway, so yeah, that was kind of like where my Stryfandom really began.

[36:19] Daniel Nolen: Wait, did you just make that up?

[36:20] Ben Rimalower: I just made it up. I'm a Stryfand. So yeah, and ever since then, and since then, it's been really kind of downhill. No, you know, I still love her and I love listening to her. But I've definitely been, you know, as I dove deeper and learned more about kind of Barbara, the movie star, and Barbara, you know, the powerful, Barbara the Great and Powerful. You know, there are parts of her that definitely annoy me. And like I say, I question some of her choices and taste level. But yeah, I still think she's just like, one of our greatest stars. I mean, also, you know, the thing about Barbara is like, we can question her taste level and all that and choices. But part of that is because it's questionable. But also part of it is because she's done so much. She's recorded so many albums. Like, you can afford to like hate like dozens of Barbara albums and still have like several more dozens left to live for.

[37:27] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[37:27] Ben Rimalower: There's just such an enormous body of work.

[37:31] Daniel Nolen: Well, and there's so many albums of hers that I don't like. But usually, you know, I can at least find like one or two tracks on there that I do like. And then I add them to my Little Barbara playlist. So.

[37:42] Ben Rimalower: And the thing about for me with Barbara and Bette and Liza is that like, a lot of their stuff that like with all of them, I really love their early work that kind of like defined them. And to some extent, I love a lot of their like later work when they were like, I'm a diva and I'm a star and I'm here to like do the hits for the fans, you know. But I have had a lot of problems with a lot of their middle periods when they were trying to be pop stars. Especially their failed attempts to be pop stars, like in the 70s and 80s. And so a lot of those kind of albums like I would listen to when I first discovered them and be really turned off. But so many of those I have now come back around to like.

I mean, and the thing with Barbara is there's still so many of them that like I don't think I'm ever going to like love like her like 80s pop albums like Till I Loved You or like Emotion, you know. But like, I have really like come around on like almost every single Bette Midler album and a lot of Barbara's 70s pop stuff like Songbird and Butterfly.

[38:59] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah. Well, it's also there's a there's a there's a kind of like with that. And I mean, kind of Liza too. But a lot of these a lot of these stars who have had, you know, decades of success and have a large body of work. There's a you know, there's a Barbara for every mood. There's a Bette for every mood.

[39:20] Ben Rimalower: Yes. And that's when the playlists come in. And that's where, you know, you and I were such like ravenous fans with a lot of these women.

[39:26] Daniel Nolen: Oh, you mean you and I?

[39:26] Ben Rimalower: You and I. I sang that at a wedding one time.

[39:33] Daniel Nolen: What? You and I. It's also a Michael Buble song, which that's how I knew it before Barbara.

[39:39] Ben Rimalower: OK. But I think it was Barbara when it's messed up.

[39:41] Daniel Nolen: It is. Yeah. I mean, just one of the one of the many times she takes like just a beautiful like song that should be sung straight and just really Barbara eyes, Barbara ties it.

[39:52] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah. But no, I think it was written by Stevie Wonder.

[39:57] Daniel Nolen: Yes, that's correct. OK, well, I don't I have nothing else to say about Barbara.

[40:03] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I mean, I have plenty more, but not in this setting.

[40:07] Daniel Nolen: I mean, we could literally do a whole like long running podcast just on like Barbara's questionable pop albums.

[40:13] Ben Rimalower: Totally. I mean, that's that that might be, you know, down the road. Maybe we'll have a little like diva, individual diva spin off episodes, discography draft and the name the name of the name of the episode will just be called Questioning Barbara.

[40:31] Daniel Nolen: All right. Well, so my number two, then, and I am grateful to you for living your truth and leaving this for me. Yes. Is, of course, the greatest performer ever to play the lead role in Evita, Lonnie Ackerman.

[40:58] Ben Rimalower: Patricia LuPone. I love her so much. Like like we said earlier, like this will be maybe out of date by the time this comes out, but just hot off the heels of her big Jacob. Bitch went viral. Yeah, bitch went viral. Bitch went viral. Her huge talk back chastisement of anti-maskers. You know, speaking of like the patriarchy and misogyny and everything I always thought it was funny about Patti LuPone because I would always think about like how well known is she to like mainstream pop culture? You know, it always frustrated me that her contemporary Bernadette Peters had such a bigger renown in that universe. And then so then when I'd be analyzing the degree to which Patti is known by non-Broadway people, it always struck me.

And I'm going back to the 90s. I'm talking about pre-internet, even really like that. Patti was almost more widely known as a bitch than she was known for having played Evita or been on Life Goes On or whatever else her top hits would be. And well, but this is even before that, you know, but like I was like whatever those things were, like Evita, Life Goes On, I don't know, Driving Miss Daisy, Anything Goes, you know, like Les Mis, like she was more, more people could if they had to like guess to like win a prize. Oh, I know that name. She's like, she's a bitch, right? Like kind of like Barbra Streisand, but like not Barbra Streisand, like she's a bitch. Like that's what like I feel like guys I went to summer camp would say about her.

Like, and like, and now, of course, in the age of the internet, it's funny that these things have been viral from the Stop Taking Pictures rant at Gypsy, even before that, lesser known now because it was before social media. But in 2002, there was a lot of press attention when she had a fit backstage when the Noises Off cast was raising money for Broadway Cares. And she thought that was like wrong to do to paying ticket members. Wow. I mean, not even, not even to mention the Sunset Boulevard of it all. Right. Well, that was really not about her being a bitch, but it was a scandal, you know. And it's, she's lucky that it was Angela Webber, honestly, because if anybody else had fired her, there probably could have been some public questioning of like, well, she is a bitch. Was it her fault? But like Angela Webber, people were.

[43:32] Ben Rimalower: Like, I don't care what you say about Patti, that guy's a dick.

[43:36] Daniel Nolen: Well, and then, uh, similarly during the pandemic, you know, when her basement tapes were released, uh, all these people were tweeting about it and Instagramming about it. People who had no idea, you know, knew who Patti was, you know, people like Brené Brown and, you know, kind of not, not in any way, uh, Broadway related people were like sharing it on Instagram and being like, we love Patti. This is hilarious. So she really did kind of have like a viral moment there that crossed all borders. Right. And of course the time when she took the phone out of the patrons at the Mitchell House Theater. Shows for days. Shows for days. But like, so the thing about it is like that I would say is like the dark side of the coin, but the coin being the fact that Patti LuPone has an enormous personality, an enormous persona. And I think it's what makes her my favorite Broadway star because like...

[44:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. It's what you need to be a Broadway star.

[44:32] Daniel Nolen: It's what you need. And it's what's so rare, you know? And, um, it was less rare in the old days of the Carol Channings and Ethel Mermans and Zero Mostels. And, you know, I love Kelly O'Hara so much. And what she can do is such an incredible gift and craft in her work. And she can be so moving and so musical, you know, in an almost singular way, but there's just almost no persona there, you know? And, um, and that's really the norm for Broadway talent nowadays. Um, and, uh, so it's, and it's not just the talent, it's also the shows that don't cultivate that in the artist playing the part, you know? And so Patti's really a throwback and that's what I love about her. I think there should be some sort of requirement, like, um, I don't know, uh, what to compare it to, but like, like casting directors or, or people who are, who are, uh, putting up new Broadway shows, there should be some sort of requirement.

Like you can only hire, like half the people you hire can be like trained musical theater graduates. And the other half have to be like, just straight out of the Midwest, you know, uh, up and comers with no training, but an arsenal of personality, you know?

[45:51] Ben Rimalower: Well, but the thing is though, like the other problem is like, why are they being trained in a way that like, um, you know, uh, homogenizes that probably some of these people would have something else inside of them that is just not developed. And, but also maybe they don't, I mean, I will say, you know, going back to Lady Gaga, you know, she has become a pop star in an era when you absolutely do not need to have that kind of a persona whatsoever. And yet just almost as an obstacle to the huge star that she's become, Lady Gaga has that kind of personality. Lady Gaga, I think probably could have been a Broadway star in the 1940s. I think she is that as, as big, you know, the few Broadway talents that I think besides Patti kind of have that kind of persona would be like Bernadette, Kristin Chenoweth.

[46:56] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Arguably Idina Menzel, but maybe not. Um, but like, you know, there's a few other people, but I think Lady Gaga certainly is in that. Yeah. I mean, she kind of, she's weird, you know, she's, um, I mean, she definitely has like theater girl energy, but in a way that's like, she's still like a star. Um, and we kind of talked about this at our last, uh, Cast Offs live, you know, it's kind of a chicken and the egg thing. Like maybe it's just because of the types of musicals that started to be performed were more popular and may, and it required more of like a triple threat thing because like, as someone, you know, who I did a quick stint in a musical theater program, you know, they're trying to train triple threats. Like that's the thing, like you have to be an actor, dancer, singer. And so they don't, you don't focus on one thing, you know, you focus on all of it, but, uh, but, but the intensity of the training gets, uh, diluted because of that, you know?

[48:44] Ben Rimalower: I mean, that's very telling about Patti because Patti has a, you know, God given lifelong musical theater vocal gift, but she studied acting at Juilliard, not singing, not any more singing than like the average like British actor would have. No technique when she was opening Evita, you know? And so, um, I, you know, it's sort of like by luck and happenstance that she was able to figure out a way to sing Evita and had, you know, made a career in modern era of musical theater, but she was not somebody that had that kind of training. And I think maybe you're right that that does water it down. And, uh, and also it's, it's the singing. I mean, the, the, the songs are written in a higher key to be more whatever the modern sound in musicals is. And the singers are trained in a way to be able to do that reliably, not trained in a way to be able to do that necessarily, um, uniquely.

[49:53] Daniel Nolen: Guts. And, you know, and, uh, but the other thing is maybe it's not fair to blame the training because the fact is like people wind up coming through that, that are unique and special, like Jesse Mueller, you know? And, um, uh, so I, you know, I don't know what it is, but anyway, Patti is, I think just, you know, uh, would be unique in any generation. And, uh, that, you know, even though she sort of resents being categorized that way, sometimes we also like when she embraces it, like, uh, famously, uh, when we went backstage to her dressing room in Company in London and she wanted to show off a doll collection of Patti LuPone dolls someone had given her. And she asked us to turn around and appreciate the dolls, quoting herself, which she did last night at Company on Broadway, when she said to the offending audience person with the mask below their nose, who do you think you are?

I know it was, I was so, uh, gooped and gagged my mom when I heard that, because I was like, that's our segment. Like we have a whole segment dedicated to that. And now you're, you're saying it again.

[49:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Uh, all right. Okay. Moving right along. Yeah. I guess it is your turn.

[50:05] Daniel Nolen: All right. There's two ways I could go with this one too. Um, but I know whichever one I don't choose, you will choose next.

[50:13] Ben Rimalower: So, uh, don't be so sure.

[50:17] Daniel Nolen: No. Oh, I see. Strategically. I need to, well, I'm just gonna have to be true to myself because if I, if again, this next one, if I lost, I would never forgive myself. So, uh, for the next one, I'm going to have to choose, uh, Bette Midler, uh, who I, again, I, I, as a kid, I knew her from Hocus Pocus, First Wives Club, uh, both movies I loved. And I've probably rewatched First Wives Club is probably the movie that or White Christmas or the movies I've seen more than any other.

[50:39] Ben Rimalower: That really just says everything.

[50:41] Daniel Nolen: It really does. Uh, and, but I didn't know, you know, quite the extent of, of Bette's, uh, star. Well, I knew her star power, but I didn't quite know her the extent of her career as a, as a singer, as well as actress. So I would just say in the past, um, five years or so, um, mostly, you know, through your fire and playlists were the one that got me into Bette as a, as a singer.

[51:03] Ben Rimalower: That's funny because you're the one that maybe reinvestigate some of her more, uh, obscure albums, like the Thighs and Whispers that I had really written off.

[51:14] Daniel Nolen: Well, whenever I first started, uh, listening to her with you, you know, I started with all the classics, Divine Miss M, Bette Midler, uh, uh, Songs for New Depression. And then when I first discovered Thighs and Whispers, which is my favorite Bette album, honestly, just one of my favorite albums. It's a great disco album, uh, but very, uh, Bette Midler and chill. Maligned even by Bette herself. Uh, but I think it's amazing. Uh, it's my favorite. Unlike Barbara, who I think considers everything she's ever done to be a masterpiece.

[51:47] Ben Rimalower: Um, I feel like Bette is just wants to like completely divorce herself from anything that didn't make money.

[51:55] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that is such that, I mean, she, she's such a huge movie star. Um, you know, tours with concerts, uh, you know, I'm trying to think of who, like, I'm trying to think what's different about her and Barbara because Barbara's also a huge star and as it's like the greatest female recording artists sell selling recording artists of all time. But there is something that feels a little still feels more mainstream about that.

[52:23] Ben Rimalower: Like Barbara still feels almost more like more, I don't know if it's theatery or more like artsy.

[52:32] Daniel Nolen: Totally. It's, I think that's so right. I think it's because Barbara became so big overnight. So in a way it's like Barbara was sort of like permanently frozen, even though she's chameleoned so much stylistically sort of, but like, but the truth is that certainly like in her like artistic heart, she's still exactly who she was like when the first box office grosses of the Funny Girl movie came out, you know, and she became a number, number one star in the world immediately. And so then she kind of never really grew or changed from that person. Whereas Bette sort of gradually became famous on a very like rocky up and down road that sort of started with her, like, you know, like runaway success in the gay clubs and like album releases in the early seventies, but kind of was back and forth a lot for the next 15 years.

You know, I don't think that sort of who she is creatively was frozen until like after Beaches maybe, you know, or even First Wives Club. It's like the, the recipe for that, that oatmeal cookies, no milkshake soup. What am I trying to say? Like, you know, that cocktail of Bette Midler did not get finalized until her fifties, you know, and Barbara's was really in her early twenties. I think that's part of the difference.

[53:58] Ben Rimalower: It's so true. Uh, well, and, and also, you know, like you were saying, Barbara's secret sauce, uh, uh, Midler mayo.

[54:13] Daniel Nolen: I knew you're not going to like that. Why couldn't it be Midler mustard?

[54:17] Ben Rimalower: Midler mustard.

[54:21] Daniel Nolen: Um, anyways, obviously the Barbara butter,

[54:27] Ben Rimalower: Barbara butter.

[54:29] Daniel Nolen: I'd love to, I'd love to, I'd love to put it on Triscuits.

[54:36] Ben Rimalower: The Patti puttanesca, literally my favorite thing that we've ever discussed. I'm going to, meanwhile, I'm like making notes. I'm going to make all of, I'm going to mock up all of these, uh, brands in Photoshop.

[54:39] Daniel Nolen: Uh, wait, what was I saying?

[54:44] Ben Rimalower: The Judy juice, because juice is the sauce of the beverage world.

[54:48] Daniel Nolen: Right. I never thought I'd say this.

[54:51] Ben Rimalower: Alan Rickman.

[54:53] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Uh, I always say Ben's Judy sounds a lot like Alan Rickman. Um, but you know, Bette, uh, Oh, well, I was gonna say is she, she started out, you know, so like, um, kind of raw, like rock, almost like a rocker chick, even though she was singing like standards and, and stuff like that. But, you know, her voice was very, um, expressive and earthy. And then she became much more, which she still has a great voice, but she became much more of like, um, like adult contemporary type of songs, like from a distance and like Barbara.

[55:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, anyway, so, okay, your turn.

[55:36] Daniel Nolen: Okay. Um, well, so strategically I have to pick this person, even though, because if I don't, you will, even though I really probably would say the other person first instead, but I feel like I can leave the other person and you won't take her and I can get to her next.

[55:47] Ben Rimalower: Oh, her, it's a woman.

[55:50] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Spoiler, spoiler alert.

[55:53] Ben Rimalower: I thought it might be, you know, Michael, Michael Crawford bit.

[55:56] Daniel Nolen: Can you imagine? Oh my God. Remember when Michael Crawford was like stalking us to get Patti's email?

[56:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, that was so weird. We were at a party and we met Michael Crawford. Speaking of Barbara, I feel like he also dropped some Barbara tea. I don't know if it was exactly, but I was telling him how much I loved him in Hello Dolly, the movie. And he's my favorite Cornelius. Um, which is true. I love, I think he's so moving in that film.

[56:22] Daniel Nolen: I mean, Gavin has such a great voice and he's so sexy, but I think, um, Michael Crawford just brings such like, he's just so like sweet and vulnerable as Cornelius. And I love his little voice.

[56:33] Ben Rimalower: Stay tuned for part two of this discussion on our episode when we do our draft of great twink roles.

[56:39] Daniel Nolen: Oh yeah. Yes. I am very looking forward to that. I mean, Gavin, Gavin still counts as a twink in my eyes.

[56:45] Ben Rimalower: Oh, maybe we should get Gavin to be the guest.

[56:50] Daniel Nolen: Oh, that'd be fun. Yeah. I didn't even think of that. That'd be fun. Um, I'm sure he has, uh, some intel in a little more than we do, but, um, I'd like all his intel. I'd like him to shoot it all over my face.

[57:04] Ben Rimalower: No, it doesn't even work.

[57:06] Daniel Nolen: Well, uh, but Michael Crawford, I told him how much I loved him in that movie. And he was like, well, you know, they tried to have, they tried to have me fired from that movie because they didn't like me. But, uh, Vincent Minnelli, the director fought for me to stay.

[57:25] Ben Rimalower: I thought, um, uh, who did I? Gene Kelly. Sorry. Sorry. I meant Gene Kelly.

[57:31] Daniel Nolen: Gene Kelly fought for me to stay. And I was like, uh, oh, so, you know, who they was most likely the only other person on that set with more power than the director was probably Barbara. Like did, was Barbara the one trying to get him fired? I don't know.

[57:44] Ben Rimalower: No, I actually feel like if Barbara was trying to get him fired, he would have been fired. I think that it had to be that Barbara was happy with him.

[57:54] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Although she famously was not happy with Walter Matthau. They fought like cats and dogs, but he was a bigger star than she was.

[58:03] Ben Rimalower: Sure, sure. Well, no, but yeah. Also, he was so good. I also love Walter Matthau. Grumpy Old Man, love him. Charade, Dennis the Menace. He's another one. He, in that Elaine Stritch, Angela Lansbury way, is that he was never youthful. No, no. He was born a youthful 70.

[58:27] Daniel Nolen: Yes. Well, speaking of youthful 70s. Okay. So my choice is Liza. I mean, listen, I love that woman so fucking much. I mean, now, not only is she my number three after Judy and Patty. As I said, the truth is, I would probably choose my next person before Liza. If I weren't scared, you were going to get to her first. And honestly, if I didn't have you to deal with, I would have chosen at least one of better Barbara before Liza, maybe even both. However, there is nobody on earth, even if Judy were alive. Well, possibly Judy. I just can't say, honestly. It's hard for us to know. But certainly nobody I've ever seen live. Nobody I've ever seen live that I can say this about. I always enjoy Liza to the max.

No questions asked. If you could told me that Liza can't sing or speak, she's doing a sign language Janine Tesori concert directed by Michael Feinstein, I would be like, take all my money. I don't care. Liza always entertains me a thousand percent from my toes to my nose.

[59:57] Ben Rimalower: You would actually pay to see Liza. That's how much you like her.

[59:59] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Rare among art. I love Liza as well. And again, I don't think I really got into her until you introduced me. And I've never seen her live, although looking back, I'm just kicking myself because I had like several opportunities when I lived in Oklahoma because she was performing at like casinos that were within easy driving distance. And so I, you know, knock on wood, I am afraid that ship has sailed, but I still love her so much. There's no one. There's no one I would rather. Well, I don't know if she's in the top three of if I could choose anybody to watch, like to watch their clips perform, she would be up there, maybe top two.

[1:00:42] Ben Rimalower: I mean, do you remember like, oh, maybe you weren't there for this. It was a year ago, almost on Fire Island. It was our friend Dan Fortune's birthday. And to celebrate his birthday, we made, I made a playlist of all of Liza's opening numbers.

[1:01:01] Daniel Nolen: Yes. I was not there, but I did hear about it. Yes.

[1:01:03] Ben Rimalower: Chronologically. I'm going to make the playlist public on YouTube. Yeah. Because let me tell you, whatever you think you want to do tonight. No, you want to watch this playlist. Liza's opening numbers, even among Liza performances, her opening numbers are the greatest. I mean, second only maybe to her encores, but like the opening number is just such a burst of energy, like that out of hell. And it's just so fucking thrilling and enjoyable. And the way that they evolve over the years, they just, each one is better than the one before it and the one after it. And it, that doesn't make sense, but it's just true. It's just so fabulous.

[1:01:45] Daniel Nolen: She, yeah, she's so she, yes. Thrilling is the word. She's so great to watch. And, you know, nothing brings me more happiness than being at like Showtune Sundays and Fire Island. And some people pops up on the screen and I've watched it dozens of times, probably a hundred times at this point. And I can still watch it and find new things. And like, it's the first time.

[1:02:08] Ben Rimalower: Totally. And I love it. That'd be a fun game to play maybe on another occasion, but like, what are the, like, if you have one video or video draft play at like, yeah, like at a gay, whatever. Like, yeah.

[1:02:26] Daniel Nolen: Gay video clip draft, something like that. Yeah. Like you're given, it's almost like, like Restaurant Wars on Top Chef. It's like, you're given a gay club for the night. You have to choose the theme. You have to choose who's going to work there and you have to choose the videos to show.

[1:02:39] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Okay. So my turn. Oh, this is where it gets tough because all of those, those were literally the top five I knew we were going to choose. Yeah. So the next five are going to be where it gets, I don't know, some choices have to be made.

[1:03:02] Daniel Nolen: Okay. There's really only two that I'm, there's two that I am debating. Oh, it's so hard. Hmm. Okay. I'm going to go.

[1:03:21] Ben Rimalower: I'm going to go Bernadette. Whoa. Yeah. I'm going to go Bernadette because I love, I love Bernadette so much and she belongs on this list. I love listening to her. I love her, her, her album, Bernadette from, when was that? Like 80? It's like, well, it's the 90s CD compilation from a record from 79, from 81. It was, one was called Bernadette Peters and one was called Not Playing.

[1:03:53] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. So I love Bernadette. It's the thighs and whispers of Bernadette. Yeah. It's so good. Every, every, I wish I knew like the, the beats per minute, but like no song. I think the Broadway baby is like her fastest song or.

[1:04:09] Ben Rimalower: And it's real slow.

[1:04:10] Daniel Nolen: And it's real slow. I mean, it's, it's so, it's such a great album to put on while you're with a glass of wine or when you're falling asleep or when you're taking a walk across the Brooklyn bridge.

[1:04:18] Ben Rimalower: Having sex.

[1:04:19] Daniel Nolen: Having sex. And I think, you know, she's someone who I have seen perform live. Mm. Twice, maybe. I can't remember. At least I've seen her in Hello, Dolly. And then I feel like I've seen her one other time, but maybe not. Did you see that? Like, oh, no, I don't think you lived here yet. Maybe you were in school though. Broadway barks because Broadway cares at the Minskoff concert.

[1:04:46] Ben Rimalower: No. Oh, what I'm thinking of is I have seen her perform at concerts. Like I've seen, I've seen her do like songs at the Jerry Herman Memorial. I feel like there was some other like benefit concert. I saw her sing at the Elaine Memorial.

[1:05:04] Daniel Nolen: Yes. Yes. That was it. Maybe. Wait, what did I go to that? She was like bungle bungle bungle. Oh no, I didn't see that one. Was she at the Barbara Cook one? I did go to that one.

[1:05:13] Ben Rimalower: I don't think I went to that one. She was not. Anyway, I do have a recording of that. DM me. I just, I, I love Bernadette. I think she's so funny. Like I was watching clips of her at that Sondheim London Palladium or Royal Albert Hall, wherever the fuck it was. I'm so desperate to see the full.

[1:05:33] Daniel Nolen: Me too. But I did see clips of her doing Hello Little Girl with whoever that was. And she's just so funny. She's like such a good, she's such a good comedic stage actress. You know, like she, she, and even in Hello Dolly, like she, she finds a way to be like, you know, this warm kind of maternal figure, but at the same time, she still has that like cutesy youthful quality to her. I mean, it's no wonder that she gets compared sometimes to Madeline Kahn because there are certain huge differences between them, obviously, but like, but her comedy, especially the way you're describing it is has a very Madeline Kahn quality.

[1:06:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. And it's still, there's like that, like, like that element of vaudeville to it, like that old school, like Mel Brooks. It's broad vaudeville, but it's also has like a sort of like lady, like girlishness.

[1:06:25] Daniel Nolen: Broadville.

[1:06:26] Ben Rimalower: Broadville. Broadville. That should be our podcast name.

[1:06:31] Daniel Nolen: Totally. Anyway. So I love Bernadette. And also just for the purposes of what we do, I think she belongs on this list. Kind of like what you said with Liza. She's not necessarily someone who is in like my top three, but.

[1:06:39] Ben Rimalower: Did I, did I say that?

[1:06:45] Daniel Nolen: You said there were other people you would have put before Liza.

[1:06:48] Ben Rimalower: Oh yeah, I did.

[1:06:49] Daniel Nolen: And I definitely, there are other people I would have put before Bernadette, but those are safer choices. Not that I thought you would choose Bernadette, but I wanted to get her up there.

[1:06:58] Ben Rimalower: Although she is on my top 10 and I feel like I never get credit. I mean, you give me credit. You know me.

[1:07:04] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. But I, most people do not give me credit for what a big Bernadette fan I am.

[1:07:09] Ben Rimalower: No, I know. I know.

[1:07:10] Daniel Nolen: It's amazing what regularly making derogatory comments about someone will do to what people think you think of that person.

[1:07:15] Ben Rimalower: Well, I know you're a big Bernadette fan, but that's just how much bigger of a Patti fan you are.

[1:07:23] Daniel Nolen: Thank you. Exactly. It's just like, you know.

[1:07:25] Ben Rimalower: You get it. You really get it.

[1:07:26] Daniel Nolen: It's context.

[1:07:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:07:29] Daniel Nolen: All right. You're next.

[1:07:30] Ben Rimalower: Yes. So this is who I would have put before Liza and maybe even at one point in time, I had it even on my list before Patti. I don't, this person is no longer on my list above Patti, but she might still be above Barbara or Bette. She's certainly above Liza. I'm not sure. But, but I knew I could get away with it because I didn't think you would put her. And that is Barbara Cook.

[1:07:54] Daniel Nolen: The other Barbara.

[1:07:56] Ben Rimalower: The other Barbara. Yes. Barbara, she got that extra A.

[1:08:00] Daniel Nolen: The white man's Barbara.

[1:08:03] Ben Rimalower: I just, I just do love Barbara Cook so very truly deeply.

[1:08:08] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:08:09] Ben Rimalower: Never more than when I was watching Sutton Foster in The Music Man. And for the record, I absolutely love Sutton Foster.

[1:08:16] Daniel Nolen: We both love Sutton, but she didn't do what Barbara did.

[1:08:20] Ben Rimalower: No, but, you know, the area where we didn't love Sutton was how she sang the score. And because, you know, it was the polar opposite of Barbara Cook.

[1:08:25] Daniel Nolen: Maybe not the polar opposite because, you know, Sutton was sort of like, like alto head voice mixing it. And Barbara Cook was like soprano chest voice belting it.

[1:08:49] Ben Rimalower: No, Sutton was alto chest voice mixing it. And Barbara Cook was soprano head voice belting it.

[1:09:00] Daniel Nolen: Yes, that's so true. I'm so happy we got to that.

[1:09:03] Ben Rimalower: Well, that's what we said many times is like Barbara Cook's voice is so thrilling that it's like the thrill of hearing a belt, a belt voice.

[1:09:11] Daniel Nolen: Totally. I mean, the person who I think Barbara Cook in her beltiest moments, which were in the late second half of the 70s and in the 80s and 90s, the voice that she sounded most like was Carolee Carmelo, who's really just a belter. But and so and I think that's part of why I love Barbara Cook so much is because I often do get a little bored, you know, even the most beautiful soprano voices, you know, Kelly O'Hara with just like her golden rays of just like pure. It's just pure musicality, you know, or, you know, voices like Christine Ebersole or Sierra Boggess that are just sort of like crystalline little like chandeliers, you know, Rebecca Luker, that's just sunshine coming down, just rays of light, you know, but Barbara Cook, there's more meat to it. So I find it more exciting.

[1:10:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it's a very meaty soprano. And I love that.

[1:10:13] Daniel Nolen: Yes. But in addition to being a meaty soprano, I just find Barbara Cook to be such an emotional, expressive, warm singer. You know, second only to Judy Garland, do I find, oh, that would be fun to do sometime also, where we do the diva drafts, like by category, like belt power. And another one. Oh, yeah.

[1:10:34] Ben Rimalower: Another one is like expressive warmth. Another one is like, you know, it's like it's like our Myers Briggs.

[1:10:41] Daniel Nolen: Yes. That would be that would be a fun project.

[1:10:44] Ben Rimalower: Totally. OK, that's for sure. So, you know, I feel like second only to Judy, Barbara does that. I mean, and, you know, listening to Barbara got me through some of my darkest times a couple of years ago when I was really, you know, having to sort of reevaluate. You know, I think like a lot of people, especially a lot of people during the pandemic, but for me, it actually proceeded a little bit. But like, you know, I think that I was really caught up in this idea of myself as this sort of unflappable sort of brash kind of personality. You know, it's why I admire the Paddy's and all that, you know. But I but I really had to sort of come to terms as I'm aging with if I want to be fulfilled and sustainable in my life, that I have to find my own vulnerability and softness, you know.

[1:11:37] Daniel Nolen: And well, I like that you use the word sustainable because I feel like more maybe more than any of these people we've listed, like Barbara's Barbara Cook's voice has is was so sustainable, you know, and she's saying not only what did she have great technique, you know, and she's saying properly. But, you know, she sounds, you know, it definitely like got more luscious and rich with age, like a fine wine. But, you know, it never sounded like damaged, like someone like Barbara or Liza, you know, definitely sounds now.

[1:12:17] Ben Rimalower: I don't think Streisand sounds so damaged.

[1:12:20] Daniel Nolen: Maybe not damaged, but maybe not damaged, just like damaged by age.

[1:12:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I mean, Streisand, you feel like she just can't really do any more of the things that she wants to do or you want her to do.

[1:12:34] Ben Rimalower: So much damage is just like, uh, unused, you know, I feel like, like, like the muscles have calcified because she hasn't been singing. Whereas Barbara, I feel like it was Barbara Cook. There was always, um, uh, it was a, it was a healthy kind of, uh, living breathing organism. Totally. I mean, and even in the last 10 years of her life, where like so much of the voice that I love so much from her was kind of gone. I mean, she, you know, the vocal lines that Barbara Cook used to just spin were much, much shorter. I mean, she could still hold notes that were really great. And like, she always sounded great, but like it would then, you know, it wouldn't just be like, just the thrilling, you know, you said, you loved me, you know, it was very like, she took breaths.

But, um, nonetheless, it's still just was such a warm, rich, beautiful sound, you know? And, but it's funny what you say about, uh, in use, uh, you know, unused, because I think about that a lot with Patti, um, compared to Streisand, um, it's like, even though Patti's voice now finally in her seventies, it is starting to be reduced a little bit, you know? I mean, she still might sort of make it into her like eighties and nineties in that Marilyn May way of still like having it, but like, but it is different now than it was 10 years ago, you know? Um, but it's still, it's certainly still astonishing now for her age, but part of what sounds so, uh, uh, astonishing and strong in Patti's voice now is that it just feels very supported and lived in.

You just feel like every single day Patti gets up and goes into every room in that house and opens the windows and opens the curtains and lets the fresh air in and lets the light in. And even if some of those rooms are different than they were 10 years ago, she still knows how to get up that staircase and let the light in and it's like, you know, it's just all there. And you hear the, the, you hear, you hear the lack of that in someone like Streisand, you know? Um, those rooms as, as in her house, most of those rooms are not lived in ever. Truly. Um, and, uh, yeah. So the only, the only reason that I sort of demoted Barbara Cook from where she was in the height of my, like, really like rediscovering her a couple of years ago, where I had her at number two to Judy on my personal list is, um, I just thought like, even if I could see Barbara Cook in the Music Man and she would be every bit as great and compelling as Sutton was, and it would be just like a boots the house down, like you've never like lived to hear like the vocals in that music store.

I don't think for me personally, it would give me the same charged feeling that I got, like seeing Patti in Can Can at Encores when she just like, just, just shook the rafters singing I Love Paris. And it was so powerful and so gorgeous all at the same time. And we all just like breathed with her. And it was just such a goosebumps, like up my spine. I mean, well, in her own way, Patti almost, not always, but in her sometimes, Patti almost gets to that Liza place of just like entertainment.

[1:16:00] Daniel Nolen: That's interesting. You say that, and I agree. And comparing someone like Patti to Barbara Cook, you know, I also like you're saying, I would, Patti is someone I would much rather see live than Barbara Cook, but I enjoy listening to Barbara Cook more than I do Patti. And I think you've even said this before, like I, Patti for me as someone, I love seeing her. It's so thrilling, but like, I don't listen to her a lot, just like around the house, but I do listen to Barbara Cook a lot, but the thrill of like going back in time and seeing her live isn't quite there. Like some of these others.

[1:16:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I mean, I listen to Patti a lot, I guess, but when I listen to Patti, I don't look at Twitter, you know, I can either listen to Patti or I can do something. It's not most music that I like to listen to generally is like, it can sort of be an accompaniment to my life.

[1:16:43] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. But Patti, I really only know how to deal with like all hands on deck.

[1:16:49] Ben Rimalower: All right. All right. Okay. Wait. So is that, is that your last one?

[1:16:55] Daniel Nolen: It's my last one. Yeah.

[1:16:55] Ben Rimalower: Okay. So let's go over who yours are so far.

[1:16:58] Daniel Nolen: Wait, you have to do your last one.

[1:16:59] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Yeah. I just, I just want to review. So I know who, where you're at.

[1:17:03] Daniel Nolen: So I was Judy, Patti, Liza, Barbara Cook. Oh no, no, no. I still have one more.

[1:17:10] Ben Rimalower: Oh yeah. No, that was right. I still have one more. I did four.

[1:17:14] Daniel Nolen: One, two. Oh, I have only done three. Okay.

[1:17:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. It's confusing.

[1:17:19] Daniel Nolen: It's confusing. Well, I'm so excited. We both get another.

[1:17:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. But you get two more.

[1:17:25] Daniel Nolen: I get two more. My fourth, I've already decided on. This was, this was probably more faithful to like who would be well, yeah, I, this may be, maybe in my, in my true hearts of hearts, heart of hearts, this would be closer to the top. But like my number four is Angela Lansbury, who we recently celebrated and appreciated at our cast offs Monday show. Angela is someone who like many of us, I discovered watching Murder, She Wrote with my grandmother and my mom. And of course I knew her from Mrs. Potts in Beauty and the Beast. And then of course I have my favorite films of hers, like Death on the Nile, where she plays Cookie Salome Auteborn, the romance novelist. And I think she's, she's, she's so great in those kinds of like daffy, crazy roles like Death on the Nile or Mrs. Lovett, or, you know, a bunch of those kinds of British character roles she does.

[1:18:33] Ben Rimalower: Did you see Blythe's Spirit?

[1:18:33] Daniel Nolen: No, no, but very similar to that, or, or Dear World. But she's also just so like fabulous and worldly and wonderful in roles like Mame, of course, and of, you know, she was, she was a great Mama Rose, maybe my favorite Mama Rose. And I'm, and I'm just such a big Murder, She Wrote fan. I know this is where we, our paths diverge. But Murder, She Wrote is something that, you know, I'm not like someone, I probably haven't even seen all the episodes, but it's, it's a show that I can put on. It brings me great comfort. I think she, her presence is just so grounding and comforting. And, you know, there's a reason she was so great as Mrs. Potts. She has that very warm, maternal, like Mame vibe. I'm actually, as I said, that I'm looking, I have the Mame vinyl record displayed on my shelf.

So yeah, Angela. And I think, you know, as we said on, at Cast Offs on Monday, she has a really underrated Broadway belt voice. You know, she, she was always kind of thought of as having like a character voice. And I feel like through, as time has gone on, she hasn't really stayed up in the echelon of, of like a Judy or a Patti. But on some of those songs, especially in the Jerry Herman stuff, like she, her voice really, really is just really incredible. So.

[1:20:03] Ben Rimalower: Totally, totally agree. Yeah. So Angela Lansbury, number four. I mean, I will say if I could choose only one Broadway musical to go back in time and see, in a weird way, it might be Angela in Mame instead of Patti and Evita or Merman and Gypsy. Just because I think it would probably be Merman and Gypsy. But the thing is like with Merman and Gypsy and certainly Patti and Evita, I feel like I know exactly what it would be. And I really don't know. Like, I, it just occurred to me saying this out loud. I want to ask, I'm sure somebody has, I want like an audio bootleg of the whole show of Mame with Angela, like from the 60s. I mean, obviously I want video, but I know that doesn't exist. But like, I want to hear her in the book, you know? And when it was new and fresh and I, I really want, I'm so like, I just want to get it, you know?

[1:21:03] Daniel Nolen: I agree totally. I mean, Mame is that, it's another one. I mean, it definitely has had, uh, you know, uh, more life after the original. Such a nice life What's That Show has had. I did watch that recently, uh, right after Sondheim's death and it still slaps. But, um, such a nice plug frame Sondheim has had. But Mame's another one. What if we like made meat pies from Sondheim's corpse? We could get so much money. I mean, that, that, that's so meta. I mean, he, it was his idea first. Totally. Uh, but Mame is another one, kind of one of those, uh, white whales, you know, that, that has been yet to be revived on a large scale satisfactorily.

[1:21:46] Ben Rimalower: Yes. That's, that is definitely an upcoming episode is our draft casting.

[1:21:52] Daniel Nolen: Yes. Yes. Yes. That one is going to be, well, it could go two ways. It could either be like just tooth and nail, like fisticuffs, uh, or it could be like completely different productions.

[1:22:03] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, totally. Um, and we have a wonderful guest, Jeffrey Self will be with us.

[1:22:08] Daniel Nolen: Yes. And, and if anyone knows about Mame, it's Jeffrey. That's true. Um, okay. You're up next. Your final one.

[1:22:15] Ben Rimalower: My final one has to be Tony award-winning Broadway royalty, Betty Buckley.

[1:22:24] Daniel Nolen: Yes. Oh, fantastic. I mean, the thing is like growing up, my mom, uh, only played a few Broadway records around the house. Uh, in the car, she played some tapes, but not really Broadway. The only tape she played in the car that was Broadway was only even Broadway adjacent was Barbra Streisand, the Broadway album. The rest was like pop tapes. Um, but then, but, but you know, like, like, um, Cindy Lauper and like the flash dance sounds. I miss, I miss tapes. Tapes. Uh, but in, in the house, the records she would play that were Broadway records, although they were technically off Broadway were, um, uh, Jacques Brel is alive and well living in Paris. Wow. And, uh, which I still to this day I'm obsessed with and, um, and do for revival and the, um, uh, well not, it was not off probably it was the original concept album of Jesus Christ superstar.

Um, and cats and, um, the Broadway, uh, double album of cats. And so I grew up hearing Betty Buckley's like siren song of just singing memory. And it's like, I think I didn't know that other people can't sing as well as she can. Like, I think I thought that's what singing sounds like. Yeah. This is what everyone's going to sound like. And the truth is that like, I have searched far and wide and nobody can touch her. Um, you know, and, uh, you know, I've heard a lot of great voices sing memory, arguably all the great voices I've heard sing memory and nobody even comes close to the way, you know, I mean, we've said this about a few different women in different contexts where they sing so muscularly that it sounds like a man or a tenor or something, you know, and there's a certain way that that is extremely true.

[1:25:01] Ben Rimalower: That's another, that's another one of our, um, uh, Myers-Briggs indicators is musculature.

[1:25:06] Daniel Nolen: For my money, you cannot say Myers-Briggs enough because I can never think of that term. And I always want to say like, like Breyers Squibb, like, uh, so I'm really, you're really drilling it home for me.

[1:25:13] Ben Rimalower: Well, every time I say I have to, uh, consciously like think of it and like make a mental image of the word, because I always just want to say like Zodiac or Astrology or, you know, uh, what's the new one, the, um, the number. Oh, I don't know. It's like, you're, you're like a number. It's like the Enneagram. Is that it?

[1:25:30] Daniel Nolen: I've never heard of that. Um, the last time that my people were numbers was in the Holocaust. Why do you always got to make it about the Holocaust?

[1:25:37] Ben Rimalower: Cause it always is. Um, so, okay. Uh, so anyway, Betty Buckley, it's, it's muscular. I mean, the way that just this just powerful, uh, this belt voice that is it's not strident, but it is bright and it just emanates from, you know, it's like, uh, it's, I've never heard anybody. Well, it's like whenever she, you know, famously, she's one of the few who can maybe the only one who we've heard belt, fully belt that last note on unexpected song.

[1:26:09] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. That it's, that's a G and it's also the G that she belts in, um, the writing on the wall. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, it really is like, what is how, how is the person doing that? Like it's how, how, how do this physics and anatomy and everything come together to produce like such a unique, thrilling, visceral, um, you know, oral experience.

[1:26:24] Ben Rimalower: Totally. I mean, and, you know, Betty is another one that, um, uh, you know, sort of basically self-trained vocally. I know she's gone to different teachers over the years, but like, but really she was formed, uh, fully formed, you know, right at the beginning, of course, one of our favorite Betty Buckley albums is the one she released decades after recording Betty Buckley in 1967. So good. Um, but, uh, but the thing is like, um, the other thing besides one of the other things, besides just the superhuman, like just high belt voice that she has is that, you know, Betty really is like a child of her time. And, um, she,

[1:27:05] Ben Rimalower: She talks about how her mom wanted her to be Julie Andrews and she wanted to be Janis Joplin. And I really think that she just perfectly aimed dead center in between those two sort of role models. And, you know, not to mention the fact that she has so many of the same cultural touchstones that we do, being a fan of people like Joni Mitchell, being a fan of Judy Garland, you know? And I feel like you hear that, you know, in so many of Betty's first albums, especially her big live albums from the 90s, of course, her absolute Desert Island disc, Evening at Carnegie Hall, and also her Live from London album with the BBC Orchestra from around that same time. It's like Betty knows what I want, you know?

So, you know, the Evening at Carnegie Hall, I mean, she opens with a very Judy Garland-esque, almost like being in love, you know? And that's no accident because she understands the assignment and she delivers. And that whole album is full of tracks as good as that, you know? And then that Live from London album, she just sings one after another. And these luckily are available to people streaming on her new Betty Buckley Sings Sondheim album. But she sings, you know, these incredibly belty versions of Marry Me a Little, maybe the definitive recording of Marry Me a Little. Yeah, that one's great. Finishing the hat when no woman had ever sung it and Betty's freaking belting it. And Old Friends, you know?

And she's just, it's just in that muscular, thrilling voice that adds, you know, it's funny because in some ways Betty is so sort of not show business. She has such an artistic sort of purity and simplicity to her. But there is a show business just inherently in the fact that she just belts the living daylights out of these songs. And Sondheim songs that you don't necessarily think of as being these brassy showbiz numbers, they get that. And then the final thing that Betty brings to her secret sauce that I think is still really very evident in many of her performances to this day, and I fell in love with it on her studio albums from the 90s, Children Will Listen and With One Look, is that she brings that really vulnerable, expressive, musical sort of singer-songwriter vibe to a really eclectic group of songs that she really, there's so many tracks there.

I think maybe the sort of the most acclaimed one that people will just across any medium will fall for is her version of the Mary Chapin Carpenter song, Come On, Come On. And it's just such a whole storytelling world that she takes, you know, Liza famously always says like that she likes to see her each song as a movie that she's like a character in. And it's sort of like, okay, Liza, whatever gets you through like the day, you know, but like, really, we all know why we're here. But like Betty truly just sort of like, just wizards you away to this emotional play.

[1:30:04] Daniel Nolen: You're so right. I mean, I've seen her several many times at Joe's Pub. And the last time I saw her, the most recent time, you know, she did sing, I think it was to promote her Sondheim album that was just released. But she sang, you know, from all different composers. And I always love when she sings really singer-songwriter stuff like Joni Mitchell, Judy Collins, stuff like that. And I think I tweeted this afterwards, you know, she reminds me of almost like reading a short story by the Canadian writer Alice Munro, who is really good at like, she starts the story in one place, and you think you know where it's going, and then it kind of spirals back and back and back and you're in a completely different place.

But it still fits thematically, you know, 100%. And that's what I feel like watching Betty in those more like storytelling, singer-songwriter, intimate settings. You know, that to me, it's like just as thrilling as, you know, seeing her sing Memory of the Tony Awards.

[1:31:14] Ben Rimalower: Totally. It's transporting. I mean, the emotional experiences I've had with certain Betty Buckley tracks probably are the greatest emotional experiences I've had with music. I mean, like, when I think about like freshman year of college, here I was like sitting in my dorm and I was listening to her With One Look album. And she sings this medley of Two for the Road, the Joni Mercer song. Mancini. Mancini, yeah. And When October Goes by Barry Manilow. And just like, so hilarious to me now because I was fucking 18 freshman in college. Like, what the hell was I like wistful and nostalgic about? But I was looking back on the first act of my life, my childhood was over. Here I was beginning whatever came next, which was all uncertain to me.

And the way Betty sang those lyrics, you know, the children running home beneath the twilight sky. Oh, for the fun of them. When October Goes, you know, and I think it was November 5th or something of my freshman year, you know, and I was looking at a rainy day in Berkeley in my dorm window and it just shattered me. And same thing a couple years later, I think I was going through a breakup in college. And I was listening to her recording from Carnegie Hall, where she sings this medley of Hi Lily, Hi Lily, Hi Lo. What is that from that old movie? I think, you know, I forget what movie, but some movie from the 50s or 60s. And then that Michael McDonald song, I Can Let Go Now, which I think is like an easy listening song from the 70s or 80s. But Betty made them speak to me in this very personal way. And I just think that it's a really, that's what it is. It's so personal and gripping.

[1:33:09] Daniel Nolen: I need to add When October Goes to my fall playlist. I love a nostalgic autumn moment. Well, you can't. Oh, right. Because it's not on Spotify. That album, Betty's albums need to all be streaming and she knows I feel that way.

[1:33:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I think she feels that way too. But we just have to figure out how to do it. Yeah, I mean, we don't but you know, the world, the Royal League. Anyway, okay, so my final choice, and this is really hard for me. But I'm going to choose someone who I think will be a surprise for many listeners. But for number five, I'm going Beatrice Arthur. Not known as like a giant, you know, she was never like a huge Broadway diva, although she did play famous roles such as Vera. And, of course, she was in Fiddler and her one moment show Just Between Friends, which I love and listen to all the time.

[1:34:07] Daniel Nolen: I mean, in fairness, she did spend the better part of two decades as the top rated television star in America.

[1:34:15] Ben Rimalower: True. I mean, she is, you know, at this point, her legacy is from TV, not from theater, but she still, you know, made an impression on Broadway. That's where she started. And honestly, I mean, I love her, obviously from Golden Girls. And I mean, you know, I've seen that show so many times. She's my favorite of the Golden Girls. But the reason I'm choosing her isn't just from that. It's because she is someone that I'm trying to think of someone to compare her to. Like she's someone I enjoy watching more than any, you know, maybe more than the majority of these people we've talked about just because she is so, I don't know, she just communicates it so well. Like in her one moment show Just Between Friends, you know, there's only a few clips that you can find of that online.

But I love listening to that show because it's so personal and storytelling. But yet when she sings these songs in her like, Bea Arthur way, which is, you know, a limited, very low vocal range, she still makes them devastating, you know. And I love her song, Where Do You Start? You know, which books are yours? I mean, you know, maybe my favorite interpreter of the Bergman catalog. When you hear her sing that, Where Do You Start? You certainly, you don't wish it was anybody with a quote unquote, better voice. I don't think anybody has as much complete honesty in their singing as Bea Arthur.

[1:36:02] Daniel Nolen: 100%. So honest and, you know, 50%. You know, I love that song, obviously. And again, it's another one of those that it takes a lot to pull it off correctly. But Bea, the way she makes all of these songs, even, you know, her famous Some People, you know, but not Rose. She is such a good example of just working with what the good Lord gave you, you know, and not trying to fit into any little box, just being like her grouchy, dry self. And not just as an old, you know, curmudgeon on TV, but actually as like a fabulous, like movie star in Mame, or a stage star in Mame, or, you know, you know, like a young kind of feminist housewife in Maude. I mean, she really made her own path, you know?

[1:37:05] Ben Rimalower: Okay, this is another list to do, is great star performances in terrible movies.

[1:37:11] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:37:11] Ben Rimalower: Like Bea Arthur in Mame, Diana Rigg in A Little Night Music. It could even just be all musicals.

[1:37:16] Daniel Nolen: But no, you're so right about Bea. I'm really glad that you chose her. It's like, I feel like the not having a big showy voice, because no matter who you are, obviously, fucking shenanigans like Patti LuPone is gonna always get in the way. But like, even somebody like Bernadette, who like, really just wants to like serve the material, but she's gonna give it a little bit of special communication, you know? Like, but with Bea, there's absolutely nothing she is trying to do other than communicate the meaning of the words.

[1:38:02] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[1:38:04] Daniel Nolen: And it also does really help that she's such a familiar star, that we understand, like everything that Bea does with her face and voice and body to communicate is so familiar to us, that like, we accept that language. It's like an infant, like learning, like its mother's moods.

[1:38:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like her expressions, obviously, she was like, she was probably, you know, arguably, like the number one reason that show was so successful is because she was the one who was the axis on which it all hinged.

[1:38:21] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, the slow burn cut to Bea.

[1:38:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean, she was like the grounding force of that show. But yet, even though she was, you know, this single kind of bitter, grumpy substitute teacher, she was still like so-

[1:38:34] Daniel Nolen: Single, bitter, grumpy, alcoholic substitute teacher.

[1:38:38] Ben Rimalower: But you know, she was still like, she moves you and she's so vulnerable. And another, another, my favorite Golden Girls episode is the last season, Journey to the Center of Attention, which everyone knows, it's the one where Blanche takes Bea, Blanche takes Dorothy to the Rusty Anka, which now that I watch, I'm like, was this a gay bar? It's just like filled with men and one fabulous diva singing. But, you know, and then Bea sings for the first time in the show, you know, and you can just hear the writers room, you know, being like, well, it's the last season, these are the reasons the show's ending, like, let's showcase the fact that she can perform a little bit. And so they give her not one, but two songs, a ballad and an uptempo.

The first of which is What'll I Do, which is another song that's just like, devastating. And so, and then at the second act of the episode, she gets hard-hearted Hannah, where she really gets to show off her quote belt. It's just the one where she's like, oh, I couldn't D flap as good. Yeah, that's, that's the first one. What'll I do? And so it's just like the perfect, you know, Venn diagram in a intersection of why we love Bea. It's like, she's so dry and funny, but yet, when you get to see her, you know, communicate through song, it's just the icing on the cake, the icing on the cheesecake.

[1:40:12] Daniel Nolen: One of my biggest regrets of shows I didn't see was her one-woman show on Broadway.

[1:40:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe even, I've listened to that one, maybe even more than Elaine Stritch at Liberty.

[1:40:22] Daniel Nolen: Wow. Who, by the way, I'm surprised did not know.

[1:40:28] Ben Rimalower: I know, she was on the shortlist, which is crazy because she was, she is very tall.

[1:40:30] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:40:30] Ben Rimalower: All right. Well, something else, something else that's not short is this episode. So thank you all for if you think this episode is overly long, you should go back and listen to some of our four hour dissertations on broken records.

[1:40:39] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Go back in time to when we were in the height of the pandemic and really had nothing else to do. Truly. Well, make sure to come see us every Monday at eight at Club Cumming.

[1:40:54] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Actually, maybe we won't say that. Maybe on our pre-recorded outro, we'll plug it. Okay. Well, we can't say it enough. All right. Goodbye.

[1:41:10] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for tuning in to Cast Offs, the podcast. If you're in New York City, come visit us every Monday at 8 p.m. at Club Cumming. A big appreciation to our good Judy's composer, Billy Risi, for the Cast Offs theme song, and to the wonderful photographer, Austin Ruffer, for our Cast Offs photo. Check them both out online. See you next time.