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[0:00] S. Todd Townsend: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to give you an inclusive look behind the scenes. We're interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time. This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:34] S. Todd Townsend: It is especially significant and timely to recognize the unique role of the Mother African Union Methodist Protestant Church to originate the Big Quarterly. The Big Quarterly served as a station on the Underground Railroad for the freedom of slaves and engaged in many other acts of church and leadership.

[1:14] ♪ Musical number: "Rapsody" — performed by Corey Havery ♪

[2:09] S. Todd Townsend: Hello, everyone. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to another episode of Backstage Pass. It's Pauls, and today we are doing something a bit different. We are really pleased to share our first hip hop musical Big Quarterly with you. And I'm so excited to introduce the writers S. Todd Townsend, Luke McElmore, and Kim Kilby. Do you want to all say hello to our barnacles out there? Our barnacles are our fans, just so you know.

[2:31] S. Todd Townsend: Yes. Hello, barnacles. What's up, everybody?

[2:35] Kim Kilby: Hey, hey, podcast land.

[2:35] S. Todd Townsend: They are barnacles because they stick with us through thick. Barnacles stick with you. Got it. And also we have another special surprise for you today. That's a bit different. Our usual beloved co-host, Teresa Attridge, can't join us today. So I'm pleased to welcome as my special guest co-host, the director and choreographer of Big Quarterly, Jovan Dansbury.

[3:00] Jōvan Dansberry: Hello, hello. Thanks so much for being here, Jovan.

[3:00] Jōvan Dansberry: Yeah, it's great to have you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. So the reason we're all meeting today, as New York Theatre Barn prepares to launch its milestone 20th season in 2027, we're going to kick off the celebration with a special benefit concert performance of Big Quarterly on Monday, November 16th at 7 p.m. at the Green Room 42 in NYC. The event will support the barn's ongoing work developing and advancing original musicals while honoring Berkeley NYC's Julianne Wick-Davis for her contributions to the next generation of musical theatre artists. So you should all go and check that out. It's going to be an amazing, amazing evening. You're going to get a great taste of the music of the show that is so thrilling and exciting. And I'm so pleased to share that with you today. That night is going to uplift New York Theatre Barn, who has uplifted our show Big Quarterly, but it is going to be a night to remember.

[3:48] S. Todd Townsend: Absolutely. You will want to be there. I have no doubt about that. Because it's gonna, it's gonna slam. It's gonna be really, really fun.

[4:01] Kim Kilby: What's also really interesting about today is, and I think it was Kim and Todd at the National Alliance for Musical Theatre Festival, I was able to chat with Kim and Todd about their musical and we got to play a song from the show. But now this is a full podcast series dedicated to just your show. There's going to be an amazing concert. You can get a taste of this music. So I would encourage everyone to go. But before we get too much further, I want to introduce these fabulous guests to all of you. So Todd, we're going to start with you. S. Todd Townsend is a passionate, creative, dreamer, visionary, and a graduate of Berkeley NYC with an MA in writing and design for musical theatre, who has traveled extensively as poet, hip hop lyricist, public speaker, songwriter, actor.

[4:54] S. Todd Townsend: Todd, so good to see you again. Luke, you're next. Luke is a jazz pianist and hip hop producer whose works are often a combination of old and new. He's a graduate of Berkeley NYC's MA in writing and design for musical theatre. Luke, so glad to have you here. Kim, you're next. Kim is a composer librettist who obtained her Master of Arts in Creative Media and Technology at Berkeley NYC's writing and design for musical theatre program. Throughout her youth, she performed professionally on many prominent Atlanta stages. That's right. ATL. And Jovan, so pleased to have you here. Thank you for co-hosting with me.

[5:26] Jōvan Dansberry: Absolutely. Jovan Dansbury is a New York-based director choreographer whose work centers on dance as a driving force in storytelling, blending movement, music, and design to create dynamic, emotionally resonant experiences. A former performer in Bob Fosse's Dancing, Wicked, MJ, and at the Metropolitan Opera, Jovan now focuses on developing both new works and reimagined productions that expand how movement shapes narrative and deepens audience connection, which I'm going to ask you about later because I was reading in the script some really exciting notes for the vision of this piece. We'll get into it. We'll get into it as we stay on the pot all the time. But Jovan, I think I'd like to have you ask the first question.

[6:01] Jōvan Dansberry: Absolutely. Like you just said, I am a dancer and choreographer. I had the pleasure of meeting these writers a bit quarterly during the New York Theatre Barn Choreo Lab in spring of 2025. What started off as just a choreo project that was supposed to be five minutes, we had six hours of rehearsal. It really turned into a really wonderful collaboration over the 18 months. What started off as supposed to be something really fun and quick and an opportunity for these writers to see their work with movement has turned into a collaboration that I think we are all so, so excited about. I have fallen in love with the music. It's music that makes me want to dance. And with that being said, it's also become something that I want to tell. And so I want to start off by just letting these writers explain what was the moment each of you realized this was a story worth telling.

[6:49] S. Todd Townsend: Okay, I'm gonna jump right in. You know, for me, it dates way back, like 12 years ago, just discovering Peter Spencer. I live in Delaware, and I attended the big quarterly. And the whole idea of this historic figure with this range of accomplishments back in the 1800s just excited my spirit. I've been inflamed with it for a long time. But coming to Berkeley and meeting Kim and Luke and us becoming a team is when I think it became hard reality for me that we had something, a story, really, really powerful story worth telling.

[7:26] Kim Kilby: Yeah, I'll jump in. I mean, obviously, you heard from our bios. We all met at Berkeley at the same time. Yeah. Really, thank you, Berkeley, because it actually, you know, it didn't necessarily have to happen that the three of us were in the same cohort at the same time. And I think there's a reason that it did happen. And Todd and I hit it off really quickly. We both have sort of full lives in other realms of our worlds and professional sort of work. So that part, we sort of clicked on, but then we had to pitch ideas and come up with ideas. And everybody comes with a lot of ideas, including myself. You know, once I heard Todd talk about this part of history that just remains unknown to most across all cultures, I just said to him, like, whether you do it with me or not, this is a musical that's important to write.

And I'm just lucky that he wanted to bring me along and invited me to come along because I've grown so much as a human and as a writer, but really just as a person who is invested in a story that I think is so valuable for people to learn about that dates back to the earliest parts of our country.

[8:39] Kim Kilby: Oh, yeah.

[8:39] S. Todd Townsend: Which is always great to see. We're a family. There's definitely I'm feeling the love in this room. But Luke, how did you join this party?

[8:51] S. Todd Townsend: You know, I'm already sensing there's a lot of love.

[8:51] Luke McElmore: No, also, I do want to tag off of that. I feel like we do laugh a lot as a team. And that actually brings me back to probably the point I would say we first I like distinctively remember this moment that Todd brought us to his small little studio apartment, like right next to the school, me and Kim. I don't even know what week it was of school, like one of the early first months or first couple of weeks. And he like pitched us this idea with the most concrete, confident vision that I'd ever I feel like seeing someone talk about one of these, you know, abstract musical out there, crazy ideas. And he was, you know, talking to me and Kim, like, y'all are my all star team. And we were like, who is this guy?

Right? It's talking in front of us. But I mean, come to find out the story that Todd like discovered 10 years ago, it's just like, you can see why he would have such a passion for the story that we would find out soon enough. I ended up on the team like a little bit later, just by some academic circumstances, we had to go through the process. But I like always felt myself just like pulled to the team, like I would go right with them after hours that we would go like me late at night.

[9:48] Kim Kilby: And I would just be like, there's something was the first one. It was like, Kim, do you think Luke's right for this project? Or do you just like start hanging out with them? Because you thought they were cool? Or how'd that happen? This backstage pass? I need the tea.

[10:06] Luke McElmore: You can get it. I mean, we we all kind of sat in the back row, if you really want to know.

[10:11] Kim Kilby: I know that one.

[10:13] Luke McElmore: Todd and I connected over just sort of like having full lives and professions feeling like we're a little late to the party of writing musicals. Luke's a young man and a wonderful person. And I felt a kinship with him because he's from Atlanta. And that's where I grew up. And he's also the same age as my oldest stepson. So you know, instantly felt very familial kind of connection. So I don't know, I think that was part of it. But yeah, for me, it was Luke, his fingers, man. You put them on the keys. Luke's a bad boy. Luke is a bad boy. And then he just introduced this hip hop vibe, which I didn't expect, you know, and so the connection, you know, the connection was cool. I know Luke probably doesn't want me to tell the story. But one time we had an assignment, and we had to create a character and a sound. And he created this weird thing, man, but it was so cool. And it was like a monkey in a tree or something.

[11:12] Luke McElmore: And it was a gopher.

[11:18] S. Todd Townsend: Details not important.

[11:18] Luke McElmore: Details not important. Okay, no more details. I don't know. There's something weird about that moment that knit us together, man. And then I get to talk about them because I will say, I feel like I'm optimistic.

[11:33] S. Todd Townsend: I'm a little bit of an older soul, and I'm not calling my teammates old by any means or experienced. But I do... No, no, no. No, it's honestly, I usually gravitate towards people that, like, I can feel like they have this life experience and wisdom that I'm kind of, like, eager to just, like, get a piece of and learn about. Again, not bashing the age of my collaborators, we're a cool multi-generational team, but that's probably why I ended up in the back row with them.

[12:04] Kim Kilby: Wisdom, wisdom. We gotta give Luke credit. We wrote most of this musical at the hours of 7 to 10 a.m., which is, you know, we were very productive in the morning, and he showed up right on time with his coffee and never missed a beat.

[12:21] Luke McLemore: Early bird special.

[12:24] Kim Kilby: That's right. I'm not speaking for New York Theatre Barn or the Choreolab when I say this at all, but just that a lot of directors, choreographers out there in the biz get paired with a lot of writing teams, and it's not always a match made in heaven. And they can all be really talented individuals, but there is such a thing as just creative synergy that's just palpable and that you feel. And that is the dream of, like, the Choreolab or New York Theatre Barn's programs, is to connect artists like Jōvan with talented writers like yourself. I'm just so pleased to hear of that story. That's really fantastic.

[12:54] Jōvan Dansberry: Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. Well, I will also have to say, now that you've mentioned it, the way that these writers asked for Choreolab, what they put into the description just felt like something that was a calling. They were looking for a choreographer that had experience with gospel music. It was about a black church, and they wanted someone who had a movement in urban contemporary and hip-hop, all things that I fell in love with. Now, I didn't know much about the story at all, but it just read as something that needed my sense of vision. I gravitated towards it right away.

[13:27] S. Todd Townsend: That's amazing. Before we go too much further, why don't I just go ahead and read the synopsis? Perpetually haunted by deep childhood wounds in the face of outer powers, Peter's private battle threatens to unravel his life's great mission. Through the grace of God, he discovers the underground family secrets that provide him a path to truly be free.

[14:02] Kim Kilby: What I love hearing about these writers is also how they got to making this musical at school. So Todd, can you just talk about how you pitched this idea at Berklee?

[14:12] S. Todd Townsend: Kim mentioned it earlier. I think everybody comes to class with an idea of what they're going to do. Berklee has a process. It has a strict process of how we come to what play we write. And I can honestly say, had I known that, I probably would not have followed through and come to class, because I came to school with Peter Spencer and Big Quarterly on my heart, in my head, on my tongue, and ready to type and learn. And so we had to pitch, I think it was 12 different possible stories. Might have been 14.

[14:45] Kim Kilby: Yeah, it was like 12 or 14.

[14:47] S. Todd Townsend: And when I discovered that, I was a little thrown back. So my solution to that problem was that I pitched Peter Spencer 12 of the 14 times. And so, you know, at one point Julianne...

[15:02] Luke McLemore: He's like, we're going to do it.

[15:05] S. Todd Townsend: Yeah, determination must have bled through because Julianne and Dan, but I think also that made the class hear the pitch again and again and again and get really familiar with it. I was also delighted when they concurred and allowed it to be my direction. Because I can honestly say, if I had to write a different story, I probably would have had a lot of obedience and I was paying tuition and I wanted to get my money's worth. But my dream was to write about Peter Spencer and Big Quarterly. And so 12 pitches in, it worked.

[15:39] Kim Kilby: Absolutely. Oh, that's so good. And I feel like I'm just as determined to tell this story as you are because of everything that the work that you guys have put into it. For us, Jovan, and I just want to say that briefly, Jovan came along and yes, it was sort of a lottery pick of who the director would be. And we don't really know the process and how many people were potentials. What we do know is it landed on Jovan and he became like an engineer of emotion. He became like a painter of moving pictures. He took our story and put movement to it in a way that blew us out of the water. And to this day, it's one of the big bragging points for our team, what Jovan brought to the table. It's just an awesome gathering that we've experienced.

[16:24] S. Todd Townsend: And now he's like the gardener of artistic talent and movement and the marriage between the music and the story, you know?

[16:33] Kim Kilby: Oh, I love that image. The gardener.

[16:35] Jōvan Dansberry: Yeah.

[16:36] S. Todd Townsend: Oh, thank you. I made a note about that, too, because we struggled with hip-hop form. Lyric content and story content comes so fast. You know, when you're sort of positioned in workshops and presentations right next to a more traditional musical theater offering that's, you know, song then scene, song then scene. The content comes so much faster. And that's been one of our biggest challenges in the writing and the development and making sure that the story gets across clearly so that it has the impact that we feel it so very much deserves. But the movement piece and having somebody who can take what we would like in generic terms to happen in a moment and actually like put it on bodies and bring it to life. It's just I can't even describe how remarkable and magical it is to be in creative collaboration in that way. It just continues to help the piece grow, expand and just become sort of bigger than what we could ever imagine.

[17:38] Luke McLemore: I just want to continue to acknowledge Jovan here because, yes, like Kim said and Todd, I feel like in the workshops, like the way we would approach our music, I feel like it would confuse a lot. And it would honestly discourage us a good bit, too, because we kept pushing in this area where I feel like all of us were still exploring. And we kept trying to make this music so dynamic so that the lyrical content, like Kim saying, wouldn't fall flat. And I feel like this thing that Jovan brought was he essentially validated our entire piece because we saw it move. And then it's like immediately it's like, oh, my God, like, yeah, there it is. Like this song that that Kim had written that has no words.

And then we got so much heat for in school and then we see it danced as a ballet. And it's like, oh, my gosh, it's the most clear song in the show. You know, again, Jovan's our dream that has come true without naming names or say anything specific. One thing that I was hanging out in the back of my head as I was reviewing this piece and I was also thinking about my own language and ability to talk about this piece. There were probably instructors that you had that didn't know what to do with your piece. You know, you're in class and they just don't know how to shape it because they're not used to working with that form, because that happened to me in grad school. I had faculty who were just so hard on me that this is not working or you don't know what you're doing.

But they just didn't know how to unlock my artistry. When you finally find the professor who gets you, maybe it's not a professor, maybe it's a collaborator who gets you and unlocks it. That is such a transformative and powerful moment for your artistry, right? So that's really exciting.

[19:09] Kim Kilby: The other thing I just wanted to respond to and say, you all have this context working together, the three of you and then Jovan joined. But just so it's clear, I didn't know who Peter Spencer was before our conversation at NAMT last year. Of course, now I have a lot more knowledge about him today. You put a great little note about how impactful he is. His courage to challenge systemic barriers, I'm reading the note, and create spaces of belonging speaks to both the timeless struggle for justice and equity. But also, and I think this for me was like the most resonant idea, the ability to envision a future not yet realized. Because I know that I often will get in that space like, okay, I know how to improve this based on my previous life experiences.

I know this moment, but that ability to look forward and think, okay, what is the possibility here? How can we look to something that's not yet realized and have that true vision to make it come to life? That was really, really exciting to me about the piece.

[20:04] S. Todd Townsend: I think telling stories about historical figures that are really important, that are not told, that are often referred to as hidden histories is really, really important. I mean, I give Todd so much credit for having the vision of taking some history that he discovered that resonated with him personally and professionally. I think you did just that, Todd. You sort of envisioned something that wasn't yet in existence. And I think that's remarkable and really deserves so much credit because to think about how oral history has been the way that a lot of people have learned about their ancestry. When you put history in a musical form, people learn history without knowing that they're taking a history lesson. I just think it's such a beautiful seed of an idea that Todd had that grew and grew and grew into this thing. But I think really it came from just that. You saw something that wasn't there yet and you believed it could be so.

[21:03] S. Todd Townsend: Wow. Thank you. You know, it's been, it's been. So I was talking to me and Kim having a conversation a couple of days back, maybe a week ago. This is a baby Jesus story. So here's the idea. OK, you got this story everybody knows about three wise men, the Magi. They come from a long distance to see this poor baby. He's poor because he's born in a manger. It's really a feeding trough. So what's the idea? Why are these super rich kings making all this travel to come see this poor kid? And it's really because his wealth is inside of him. The wealthy place is inside of us. And as human beings, when we realize the dollars are cool and money's cool and credit cards are cool, they're tools. But the wealth is on the inside.

And when we understand that, we understand our value and it exceeds dollars. And that's what for me, that's what triggered in the story. His wealth, his understanding, his vision, he was willing to fight for it when nobody would stand with him. And this year, it's 212 years old, the big quarterly celebration, the Freedom Festival. And I think now would be the perfect moment to play our first demo, which is Rhapsody. So would y'all set that up? Because that will help us get to know Peter so much more.

[22:16] Kim Kilby: Yeah, it's like his I don't want song.

[22:19] S. Todd Townsend: His I don't want song.

[22:20] Kim Kilby: Oh, I love that. Rhapsody, we capture him post his freedom announcement. He's freed in Maryland because his slave owner dies. And as a result, he's pardoned. And so Peter, after leaving, finds himself in middle ground. He's leaving Maryland, but he's going to come to Delaware. And so on the road, Rhapsody is his conversation with God. It's his battle. I'm free, but my family's not. I'm free. What am I supposed to do with it? There are a lot of promises attached to it, but it's only drapery. It's dressing. It's not real because I don't have any power. I don't have any money. I don't have any clarity.

[23:05] S. Todd Townsend: In the 1800s, I'm free, but am I really? And this is the argument, the internal battle and the conversation that he's having with himself and with God. That's a great setup. Who is performing this song?

[23:18] Kim Kilby: Oh, we were so blessed to have another Berkeley student who was in the cohort after us be willing to give us some of his time and beautiful singing on many of our demos. His name is Corey Harvey. He's singing the role of Peter on this demo. Fantastic. Here is "Rapsody" performed by Corey Harvey.

[23:31] ♪ Musical number: "Rapsody" — performed by Corey Harvey ♪

[27:24] S. Todd Townsend: One thing that I really appreciate about this song is we really get a sense of where Peter is at the start of his journey. Although there is actually another song right before this that is really important that we're not going to get to today, but it's called "Family Destroyed." Peter's coming out of a really, really traumatic circumstance. Hopefully it's OK for me to say. His father was murdered and also he lost his mother and then his family was separated. We're on this journey. There's a traumatic circumstance, but there's also, to me, this feeling of strength. But there's a sense of yearning. He even says, beneath my skin, my anger grows. And that is so different than how he will evolve over the course of the show. So we say on the show sometimes the best way to meet someone is through music. And I really get a sense of where he is in this moment.

[28:10] Jōvan Dansberry: Yeah, he's struggling with the inequity of his being given freedom at this moment after losing pretty much everyone he loved in his life. Todd can speak to this. I mean, it was the pervasiveness of the inhumanity and the cruelty and the unimaginable, but real circumstances that people enslaved in this country had to endure for so long. So I think it's that, that he's holding the unfairness of it. And then suddenly I'm free and God is calling me to do something bigger. And why me questioning the call, the question from God? Yeah, the call.

[28:52] S. Todd Townsend: And what I also think is really special about this is that we have great music, entertaining music that also has something to say. And so I think that's what is really special about this moment is that you can go ahead and make something that's very entertaining, but it's sometimes hard to relate to or it's hard to confront when it comes to our American history. And sometimes when we were talking over many Zooms, are we bopping our heads to something sometimes that we should not be? And then that was also where I think as a director, we have to come in and say, no, we want this music to be something that is entertaining and something that's memorable. But when you visually can also watch it, you can understand the emotional arcs behind it.

And I think that's what's so exciting about this team and what Luke has been able to also add to it when it comes to certain aspects of the sampling in the work of the gospel music. It's just really well done as a musical that I love to work with.

[29:48] Luke McLemore: I was just going to add a contemporary flair just from the perspective of the fight for justice. There's conflict because there's commonality in terms of oppression. What's unfamiliar is being selected to be the one when you don't feel qualified to lead everybody to a place you're unclear of. You know what the dream is, but that internal conflict is very often not given voice. And so you have people who are functional because of the demand, but inside that conflict. And we try to give voice to that conflict in that song. It's historic and it's contemporary.

[30:29] S. Todd Townsend: In many of your songs, there are several movements within the piece, as opposed to, say, like some classic, you know, standard musical theater songs. We really see this conversation. We see Peter grappling with God and his new role. Why me? How am I supposed to do this? By the end, he's calling to God saying he's ready. He's accepted his role as a shepherd. The beat feels strongest in this moment, which is kind of a reflection of that acceptance of his mission. It's also serving a very specific function because we started the show with like these very big produced, our overture, our opening, and then this ask us what's the meaning. These are like three. They're very produced like hip hop songs.

And then we get into "Family Destroyed" and it's completely like we strip everything away and we just go to the piano. There's four chords and there's a lot of dissonance and same with "Rapsody" and they kind of flow together. And I think we do that because like Jovan and like Todd and like Kim are saying, we're stripping, like he's completely stripped away at this moment. And we're highlighting this vulnerable and very, very intimate state that we're also trying to invite people into and like consume, not scare them away. And so, yeah.

[31:35] Luke McLemore: And that's kind of also explains like why we decided to write a "Rhapsody" for that song. I feel like a typical "I Want" song might not. A "Rhapsody" is probably a poor choice for that because "Rhapsody" by form or not, they don't follow a structure there. You know, they weave in and out of things. But I feel like like for this character that we have, it's the most accurate way to tell like how he's developing into what, you know, his journey will become along the show. And then it also sets up a lot of our themes that we just, you know, blow up throughout the show, you know, and then we build back up into other songs that we'll hear, I think, today, like "Freedom Land" and other things that are much we build back up to that produced moment that we start off at.

[32:14] S. Todd Townsend: That's really well said. And rebuilding is such a theme, I would say, throughout the piece, literally rebuilding something that's been broken both externally and internally. And so I'd love to hear how you dramatize the journey of Peter Spencer. We see him accept his mission, but how did you dramatize that? Did you do research on his life or Todd, did you just know this through oral histories?

[32:41] S. Todd Townsend: There's been some research done. We have known historical facts. And some of those include taking Asbury Methodist Church to court, which is if you think about some of these things that Peter did at a time when it was really unimaginable. Radical for a black man to go into court, right? Radical, knowing that there would be not a positive outcome from that, but doing it still and claiming the statement publicly that we are being treated unfairly. I will sometimes serve as what we call the avatar of the listener just to make sure the story is clear. So when Peter moved north to Wilmington, Delaware, his first church is actually the Asbury Methodist Church. He very, very quickly became a prominent leader in the church.

And eventually half of the church membership actually was black. But then the white community that had already been there felt threatened. And so, for example, they start to ban the black community from spaces in the church. Like they could no longer sing in the balcony and even they could no longer take communion. In 1805, 42 black members of the church were repeatedly denied sacraments of the church. And this betrayal or this disrespect was so disheartening to Peter that he sought counsel from someone he really trusted. How did he get that done with all that was happening? And I think Jovan could testify to this as well. One of the things about the counterbalance or the imbalance to societal oppression is that if you're a standout, people tend to say things like, oh, you're a credit to your people or, wow, you're so different. And I think what history with the elements that we grab from real history showcase is that it's way more normalized that there are genes.

[34:37] Kim Kilby: Right under the surface, that there are very gifted and talented contributions. And even in our contemporary time, there's the unearthing of more and more contributions. But when everything is blanketed with that sort of oppression, the assumptions are that there's not that quality. I think that what I wanted to bring out so much from what they have written, what these writers have written, and especially coming from my own experience and how I feel about my Black community, my Black family, is that there is such resilience against all of that oppression. And we can go ahead and keep putting that out there. But what I think Todd was getting at is we are a resilient people. And I think that when you come to the theater, what you're going to walk away with is more joy and hope than sorrow.

I don't want people to walk away with sorrow because when we go to the Big Quarterly, we were just there a couple of months ago. And there's resilience and joy and proud people. And so while we all understand what this history of America has been, there is resilience. And I think that is what we have to make sure we bring out of the show.

[35:41] Kim Kilby: The next song that we have is Holy Ghost. When you think about the fight, so Rhapsody sets the foundation. Although there's a conclusion to it, there's a decision. It's really pre. It's almost like preschool before kindergarten. Pre. But he's clear in his spirit. By the time we get to say Holy Ghost, Peter has been in the fight. He's come up against the real forces of racism, of oppression, of societal injustice. The fight is so traumatic, so demanding that Peter's ready to quit. He's literally ready to quit. And he seeks the counsel, the advice of a contemporary. And that contemporary is Richard Allen. And so Richard Allen, because he's experienced in the battle in the Philadelphia area, becomes a voice for Peter.

In other words, Peter would not have a mentor outside of that. Because remember, he cannot go to the current power structure. He cannot go to the business world. He cannot go to the ecclesiastical order. And find safety because he's being used by those systems and disregarded. In his fight, he gets weary and is ready to quit. That's what leads him to the pursuit of a stronger voice, of motivational. And that motivational is Richard Allen.

[37:07] Todd Townsend: Who's performing that song? Todd, it's you and Al.

[37:10] Kim Kilby: I thought it was you, Todd. I knew it was you. I just always ask that question.

[37:18] Todd Townsend: Al Motley is a member of my church. He's a Christian rapper who's rapped around the world. By the way, if people didn't figure it out, Todd's a pastor, okay? I'm not sure that would actually have been said. During the story of the Magi, he's a pastor, y'all.

[37:36] Kim Kilby: He's a member of your church. That's great to know.

[37:38] Todd Townsend: Yeah, he's a member of the church, a Christian rapper, and just powerful. He's just a solid, married man. He's got seven children. I tell them he's got a whole congregation because they fill up a pew. But they're beautiful people. Al is just a powerful, loving—he's just a reservoir of quality. And he can rap. Here's Holy Ghost performed by Todd Townsend and Al Motley.

[38:00] ♪ Musical number: "Holy Ghost" — performed by Todd Townsend and Al Motley ♪

[42:31] Kim Kilby: Well, you're not gonna get anything like that out of the Presbyterian Church. This, to me, is like a religious, Christian rap battle, and I am here for it.

[42:43] Todd Townsend: It's a vibe.

[42:45] Kim Kilby: It's so funny, Pals, because we did actually have a very, very different, real rap battle in the show earlier. But I love that. I love that way of thinking about the conversation between Peter Spencer and Richard Allen. Because, yeah, they both are these really important leaders in the foundations of the Black Church. And it's wonderful to sort of envision what those conversations must have been like between the two men. You took that event and dramatized it. The other thing I'm gonna say, and I'm conscious of there being a pastor in the room. I was raised in the church, and I know that pastors carry such an enormous weight upon them. Because they are aware of the struggles within their community. What an enormous weight to bear. The discouragement of Peter in this moment is so palpable and so clear. But then we see how Richard is able to encourage him.

[43:40] Kim Kilby: You know, it's common. I think that when you think about pastors or social activists or, and I could even spin into politicians or the medical field or the educational field. When you have leaders who specialize in human resource, the organic dynamic that people are. You know, it's not cookie cutter. We're not robots. So there are layers and layers and layers of conflict and joy and victory and loss every day. And I think being able to articulate that. You know, and then I know what it's like to live in the skin of a pastor, to be a pastor. And at the same time, you love everybody. But how do you negotiate the terrain, you know, and still make sure that you're not getting lost in your cause.

But you're consistently watering the soul of people. And so I think that's one of the beautiful things. Because by the end of Holy Ghost, they are rocking. You know, they're dancing together. And, you know, Jovan and his team. When we saw that, we were like, Oh, okay. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Okay. Okay. No, no. There was a stage direction early on that I think I wrote that was like a dance break a la electric slide, which is really not what we wanted. There needed to be something that said like they're learning. He's learning a dance and a rap together. And that's sort of symbolic of Richard's teachings transmitting over to Peter. Obviously, we've definitely leveled up from the electric slide.

[45:20] Kim Kilby: Yeah. Going back to I'm telling you, the music made me want to move. It made me want to dance. Holy Ghost is definitely one of those that is something that just brings it out of you and getting to work on that at the choreo lab. And it's still one of my favorite things to get into the room with and keep on tugging away at.

[45:43] Todd Townsend: Thanks for joining us on New York Theater Barn's Backstage Pass. Join us next time as we continue our conversation with the writers and director choreographer of Big Quarterly. Get your backstage pass.